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Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Tiggs (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 11:56

Michael Holding discussing white privilege is well worth a watch.



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Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: johnthegrif (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 11:58

Genuinely I have raised questions and look for an answer as I really do not see the problem and the difference, dismissing it as whataboutery does not provide me with an explanation.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 11:59

I know you're attempting a sort of reducto ad absurdum argument John but Saints isn't a name assumed in the interests of branding. Chiefs is. Saints doesn't entail the use of 'catholic' imagery. Chiefs does. Saints is a reference to something which has historical relevance with British culture. Chiefs isn't.

The comparison with Warriors is just invalid - given that it is culturally relevant. Worcester's branding references (I think) Mercian, saxon culture to which they are unarguably entitled. I'm not able to comment on Wigan RL's assumption of the name.

But the point is it's not up to us to decide how Native Americans feel about this - any more than it is up to us as people of white european extraction to decide how black, asian and minority ethnic people perceive racism.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2020 12:02 by Rich W.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Tiggs (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 11:59


Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: shendy (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 12:00

Quote:
johnthegrif
I can understand that Redskins is offensive but I do not see that Chiefs in its self is any more offensive than say Warriors. I know some will say that taken in conjunction with the War bonnet is what makes it offensive but frankly I just don't see why. Obviously Northampton should change their name as it is patently ridiculing the Catholic Church and few of the Northampton community can claim to be Saints.

Apart from the fact that the club was formed by Rev Samuel Wigg in the St James area of Northampton - that is why we are known as the Saints, and have been been since the very early days of the club.
And anyway, why would it be ridiculing the Catholic church? I'm no great expert on religious affairs, but even I know that saints aren't just a Catholic thing.
[en.wikipedia.org]

As for Exeter, it's not as if they have a long tradition of the Chiefs name, let alone there being any real background to it - so no great loss in changing it. Apart from it meaning they have to completely change their branding, which is not going to be a trivial or cheap exercise.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: odd-shaped vagaries (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 13:12

Quote:
Rich W
I know you're attempting a sort of reducto ad absurdum argument John but Saints isn't a name assumed in the interests of branding. Chiefs is. Saints doesn't entail the use of 'catholic' imagery. Chiefs does. Saints is a reference to something which has historical relevance with British culture. Chiefs isn't.
The comparison with Warriors is just invalid - given that it is culturally relevant. Worcester's branding references (I think) Mercian, saxon culture to which they are unarguably entitled. I'm not able to comment on Wigan RL's assumption of the name.

But the point is it's not up to us to decide how Native Americans feel about this - any more than it is up to us as people of white european extraction to decide how black, asian and minority ethnic people perceive racism.

"Chiefs is. Saints doesn't entail the use of 'catholic' imagery. Chiefs does. Saints is a reference to something which has historical relevance with British culture. Chiefs isn't."

[www.clanchiefs.org.uk]

Perhaps if they wore something scottish?



The referee is the final arbitrary
.. dementiaaahll!

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: SK 88 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 13:39

Quote:
johnthegrif
Native Americans are actually a great number of different peoples and nations, Do we actually know which ones are offended by Exeter Rugby calling themselves the Chiefs or have they possibly never heard of Exeter. As for the wearing of feathered warbonnets, probably only worn by certain plains tribes Sioux, Comanche for example at ceremonial occasions these can be purchased freely in Native American run shops, I am sure they are sold with the intention of someone actually wearing them. I saw them for sale in a shop in Monterey run by a lady of proud of her Chumash heritage, they as a people never wore such items. Do we question non-French wearing a beret, or those that return from Spain or Mexico with a sombrero, is dressing up against the law?

[url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160809123137/[www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk]]The Crow Creek Dakota Sioux tribe complain here[/url], which was 4 years ago.

The Muscogee (Creek) Nation and Cherokee Nation backed up a Native American baseball player who said he found the tomahawk chop insulting

The national congress of American Indians has been campaigning against it for decades, starting in 1968, which was 31 years before Exeter adopting the branding.

Quote:
Specifically, rather than honoring Native peoples, these caricatures and stereotypes are harmful, perpetuate negative stereotypes of America’s first peoples, and contribute to a disregard for the personhood of Native peoples.
As documented in a comprehensive review of decades of social science research, derogatory "Indian" sports mascots have serious psychological, social and cultural consequences for Native Americans, especially Native youth. Of today’s American Indian and Alaska Native population, those under the age of 18 make up 32 percent, and Native youth under the age of 24 represent nearly half, or 42 percent, of the entire Native population.

Most concerning in considering negative stereotypes of Native people, are the alarmingly high rates of hate crimes against Native people. According to Department of Justice analysis, “American Indians are more likely than people of other races to experience violence at the hands of someone of a different race.”

These factors together indicate a very real need to take immediate action in a number of areas, including the removal of harmful images as well as the education of the general public, to diffuse additional hateful activity against Native peoples.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: daktari (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 13:41

Quote:
Tiggs
https://news.sky.com/video/history-is-written-by-the-people-who-do-the-harm-cricket-commentators-view-of-white-privilege-12024274
Thanks for sharing , everyone who wishes to vent their spleen about racism , should listen to Michael , a very heartfelt truism in his comments.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 13:41

well yes Rog - that would have been entirely reasonable - but they didn't do that. They deliberately selected Native American iconography.

That's why [Waikato] Chiefs is fine - because it refers, explicitly, to Maori culture and they are based in Waikato which is considered the 'heart of Maoridom'.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2020 13:43 by Rich W.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Brownian Motion (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 13:44

Quote:
Tiggs
[news.sky.com]

Very powerful.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 13:48


Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Ayerzawannabe (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 13:58

Is the call to drop Chiefs or to drop the branding?
Surely they could keep Chiefs and change the branding to Celtic origin?

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Duncan Keene (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 14:15

That's specifically what the petition calls for AW, they are ok with the Chiefs name and it has a history pre the branding exercise of 1999.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: IDLETIMES (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 14:26

But people on here are calling for the word 'Chiefs' to be dropped

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: SK 88 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 14:30

Yes the earliest reference to Exeter Chiefs in a rugby (football) context appears from around 1896 from a quick peruse of the British Newspaper archive, with 1898 being the first conclusive "yes its defo them and definitely used in the context of a specific nickname".

22 November 1898 Exeter & Plymouth Gazette "Torquay Athletic visited Bristol, and suc- playing pointless draw, whereas Exeter Chiefs the previous week were defeated lo\c. Th>? Athletes have come on good deal of late, but it should be remembered that Bristol"

Torquay Athletic are still a club today too.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 14:32

Quote:
IDLETIMES
But people on here are calling for the word 'Chiefs' to be dropped

Are they?



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Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: IDLETIMES (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 14:48

Yes

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 14:55

I don't think they are - they are asking for it to be separated from Native American iconography.



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Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: shendy (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 14:55

TBH I hadn't realised that the push was specifically about the imagery, not the name.
So maybe they've been using the name for a long time - it'd be interesting to understand why they started with it - but the imagery is a recent thing, so no "tradition" is lost in dropping it.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2020 14:58

Quote:
Rich W
But the point is it's not up to us to decide how Native Americans feel about this - any more than it is up to us as people of white european extraction to decide how black, asian and minority ethnic people perceive racism.

Agreed. But many "white" folk get all indignant on behalf of other people all the time. Often do more harm to the "cause" than good imvho.



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