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Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 29 July, 2020 23:31

Quote:
Rich W
Quote:
Yorkie
Quote:
Tiggs
https://news.sky.com/video/history-is-written-by-the-people-who-do-the-harm-cricket-commentators-view-of-white-privilege-12024274

Yes, well worth the time to listen.

I think that is the very first time that I have ever heard anyone say that education of both skin colours is required.

It is not always the victors who get to write a dodgy history. The German version of WW2 used to be very different to ours and far less accurate!

Racism in this country still exists but is a long, long way down the road to minimisation when you compare us to the States where black people only got the vote and rid of segregation in the recent past historically, particularly in the southern states. They are several generations behind us and were setting off from a much lower base line too.

But you can see why, in the light of what Mikee says about education and the way that people assimilate the conventions of what it means to be black and to be white, it's not as simple as saying that we're further down the road than the US. Yes we may have less overtly racist institutions but we are no less susceptible to those, often unconscious, racist, white supremacist feelings of entitlement.

Besides it's up to us to fix our country. Just because we're 'not as bad' (whatever that means) as someone else doesn't mean we don't have to deal with the very real problems that exist here.


Could you facilitate a list please?

(Sm3)

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 29 July, 2020 23:44

A list of what?

Or are you just denying that racism remains a problem? Perhaps you're also of a mind to deny the holocaust?



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Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Bod (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 00:02

Quote:
Rich W
A list of what?
Or are you just denying that racism remains a problem? Perhaps you're also of a mind to deny the holocaust?

I've never been a Labour party member so I'll disappoint you on that score .

doesn't mean we don't have to deal with the very real problems that exist here.

It'd be useful for you to list the concerns you have that need addressing. Please illustrate your worries. It'd help most observers to evaluate and subsequently contribute don't you think?

D'you reckon?

(Sm3)

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: GT1 (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 00:10

When we went to San Sebastián to watch Bath(somehow we lost to them at the Crisp bowl but we had already booked) Biarritz had a fully dressed Red Indian on a flat back going round the stadium!!
Not sure if they still do it or not but seemed a bit weird at the time!
We obviously wore our Tigers shirts & supported Biarritz who won & if the chance ever comes again I'll visit San Sebastián it's a wonderful place!

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: IDLETIMES (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 09:57

Well, that's settled then, Chiefs they were and Chiefs they will remain

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: SK 88 (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 09:59

Quote:
Bod
Quote:
Brownian Motion
That whataboutery just doesn't fly, John.

What's whataboutery?

I don't get this automatic debate silencing mechanism

Please explain for a thicko like me.

Whatabout Leicester appropriating an image of an animal found in distant continents that have nothing remotely linked to the city, as part of their marketing process? Is that equivalent to Exeter and their Chiefs moniker? I think Boudica was Chief of the Celtic Iceni tribe.

What's it all about BM?

(Sm3)

I mean trying to "whatabout" the problem of dehumanising logos by comparing real people to animals is sort of the point.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: IDLETIMES (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 10:02

Animals don't stab you in the back and are much more reliable than humans

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: SK 88 (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 10:05

Quote:
Rich W
I don't know - as Stuart, I think, pointed out a couple of weeks ago, they have a long history of using the 'Chiefs' name and it has nothing to do with Native Americans. It was the appropriation in the branding's association through their logo and mascot that were offensive. If they can now distance themselves from that to detoxify the nickname I think that's OK.
Correction - I now understand that they have decided to retain the badge - which is indeed garbage. And, having identified and acknowledged the problem, refusing to change the badge just makes it worse.

Yes it is rather bizarre from Exeter. Is taking the mickey out of native americans or not? It seems to me to be a cynical ploy to defuse the "not your mascot" hashtag without actually doing anything or really accepting the problem.

If you hold the position that its fine, then okay I disagree but fair enough. If you hold the position that it's not fine, but being realistic this has blown up too quickly to be dealt with this season, then I can sympathise and understand a delay.

But this halfway house of accepting a problem but not doing anything about it is really odd. It only fans the flames.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Brownian Motion (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 10:09

Quote:
SK 88
Quote:
Bod
Quote:
Brownian Motion
That whataboutery just doesn't fly, John.

What's whataboutery?

I don't get this automatic debate silencing mechanism

Please explain for a thicko like me.

Whatabout Leicester appropriating an image of an animal found in distant continents that have nothing remotely linked to the city, as part of their marketing process? Is that equivalent to Exeter and their Chiefs moniker? I think Boudica was Chief of the Celtic Iceni tribe.

What's it all about BM?

(Sm3)

I mean trying to "whatabout" the problem of dehumanising logos by comparing real people to animals is sort of the point.

Yep, not sure there's anything left to explain after such a beautiful demonstration!

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: RushdenTiger (KT at work) (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 10:17

Quote:
Bod
Whatabout Leicester appropriating an image of an animal found in distant continents that have nothing remotely linked to the city, as part of their marketing process? Is that equivalent to Exeter and their Chiefs moniker? I think Boudica was Chief of the Celtic Iceni tribe.

Oh dear what a load of old nonsense. It's really depressing to see those that just can't move with the times and want to cling on to some imagined golden age. What's the point of having a mind if you can't change it.

I'm not sure how long we've been called the Tigers but I think it was before marketing was a thing. That and our links to the Royal Leicestershire regiment and the 'bleedin' obvious point that we play in stripes makes your point somewhat ridiculous.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Tiggs (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 10:23

And we support Tiger preservation organisations, and we do not exploit the actual Tigers.



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Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: RushdenTiger (KT at work) (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 10:29

Why didn't they just change their name to the Exeter Chefs? I'm sure they've cooked the books over the years.

It would make for an amusing badge and an 'It's a Knockout' type mascot. Massive marketing opportunity lost. And instead of that offensive 'Native American' noise they make they could just offensively swear and claim they were Gordon Ramsey.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Brownian Motion (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 10:58

That's the real irony - the actual supporter campaign doesn't want the name changed, and accepts that there is (allegedly) history showing the name dates back to the turn of the 19th century. All they want is the racist imagery appropriated from a culture that isn't theirs to be dispensed with. A simple logo and imagery replacement with Dumnonii references and pageantry would solve the issue.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 11:43

Quote:
Bod
Quote:
Rich W
A list of what?
Or are you just denying that racism remains a problem? Perhaps you're also of a mind to deny the holocaust?

I've never been a Labour party member so I'll disappoint you on that score .

doesn't mean we don't have to deal with the very real problems that exist here.

It'd be useful for you to list the concerns you have that need addressing. Please illustrate your worries. It'd help most observers to evaluate and subsequently contribute don't you think?

D'you reckon?

(Sm3)

Vacuuous and offensive.

The vast majority of Labour Party members are as offended by anti-Semitism as anyone - more than most. And the even vaster majority of holocaust deniers are not members of any democratic Socialist grouping.

As for a list - why? We're discussing one single issue that comes within our sport - how about you stick to that rather than seeking to distract from it because you haven't got an argument.



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Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: RushdenTiger (KT at work) (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 11:55

Don't bite Rich.

He's feeling threatened and he's lashing out aimlessly.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: SK 88 (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 11:57

Quote:
Brownian Motion
That's the real irony - the actual supporter campaign doesn't want the name changed, and accepts that there is (allegedly) history showing the name dates back to the turn of the 19th century. All they want is the racist imagery appropriated from a culture that isn't theirs to be dispensed with. A simple logo and imagery replacement with Dumnonii references and pageantry would solve the issue.

I was dubious about the history but a search through the British newspaper archive shows there were legitimate press references to the Exeter Chiefs from the late 1890s. It was clearly not as widely known as Tigers, Saints or even the Rugby Lions but I think it passes a basic test for historic use.

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Brownian Motion (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 12:04

Dead simple then, it would seem, right?

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Stopsy (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 12:21

And Chiefs could easily be used without offence perhaps by referring to the dumnonii as opposed to indigenous Americans? A fearsome Celtic warrior’s head & torso?

Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: Tiggs (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 12:27

But was it always a reference to indigenous Americans, in which case it is a different issue.



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Re: Exeter to discuss dropping Chiefs
Posted by: 000mjg (IP Logged)
Date: 30 July, 2020 12:37


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