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OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 19:00

In the past, some folk have commented/worried about Standards post Brexit. If you are interested/affected then this latest update from BSI might be of interest.



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Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: Stopsy (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 23:05

Thanks for posting this Yorkie, I wonder how the EU standards will respond once Boris is brown nosing Trump and getting great deals (not necessarily great for the UK). Agriculture and Food safety is my biggest worry, if we accept imports that donít meet the EU standards then our exports to the EU, our biggest Export market currently, will become difficult to say the least.

Still, Iím an old worry guts, the Beloved Leader has pronounced that the world beating per capita Corona death rate of the UK Shows how great we are as a United nation

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 08:28

Thing with standards is that there's quite some lag between the first thought and eventual enactment. 20+ years! So, Boris would need to publicly push stuff through government to withdraw or avoid existing standards. Can't see him being able to do this with food tbh.

The USA in most areas is way behind Europe when it comes to standards and often actually uses EU (and even the old DIN) standards as their technical reference points. Especially in construction.



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Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: RushdenTiger (KT at work) (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 10:19

Thanks Yorkie.

I know we'll never agree on Brexit and I remain a vehement remainer (rejoiner) but I've always found your discourse measured and without the unnecessary faux patriotism.

We're heavily involved in sports body protection products with items requiring CE certification. Provided our products continue to be accepted in Europe marked up with the CE badge I can't see a problem. As you say the US have no such equivalent standards in our area and also adopt and recognise the CE marking ( the CE marking is also understood and valued by the end user consumers in this niche area driving sales etc.).

What I can't see at the moment is the benefit of another layer of standards (BSI) and how this will help me sell products overseas (in fact with our international reputation at such a low I can see it hindering sales if we marked our products up with the BSI badge).

It is good to see however that our influence on various international standard organisations is more or less unchanged (but I remind those supporting Brexit the idea was that leaving Europe was supposed to provide benefit not leave things the same or slightly less).

That's my reading of it anyway.

Have a good day Mr Yorkie

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: PrestonTiger (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 14:01

For CE marking, I'll throw you a curved ball.

Depending on which EU directives you're using and in turn what the certification requirements are ... UK-issued certification or checking or assessment (eg from a Notified Body) then if it was a UK based Nobo, those UK certs are no longer valid for any product put on the market from the day we leave the EU.

So - all the UK Companies making and selling stuff into the EU to have to go get new certification from EU-27 based NoBos.
££££ wasted.

Welcome to the real impact of Brexit.

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 14:56

Quote:
RushdenTiger (KT at work)
Thanks Yorkie.
I know we'll never agree on Brexit and I remain a vehement remainer (rejoiner) but I've always found your discourse measured and without the unnecessary faux patriotism.

We're heavily involved in sports body protection products with items requiring CE certification. Provided our products continue to be accepted in Europe marked up with the CE badge I can't see a problem. As you say the US have no such equivalent standards in our area and also adopt and recognise the CE marking ( the CE marking is also understood and valued by the end user consumers in this niche area driving sales etc.).

What I can't see at the moment is the benefit of another layer of standards (BSI) and how this will help me sell products overseas (in fact with our international reputation at such a low I can see it hindering sales if we marked our products up with the BSI badge).

It is good to see however that our influence on various international standard organisations is more or less unchanged (but I remind those supporting Brexit the idea was that leaving Europe was supposed to provide benefit not leave things the same or slightly less).

That's my reading of it anyway.

Have a good day Mr Yorkie

Thank you. I do try to be balanced and "factual" from my viewpoint of course.

We were in very similar but different industries!

Currently, CEN publishes an EN standard. (Or HEN in some circumstances.) Each country then is meant to publish that standard within 6 months of the EN being published. So in the UK an EN will become a BS EN***** with the numbers being the same as the EN. In Germany (who don't always abide by the rules and publish!!) the same standard will become DIN EN*****. So there won't be "another layer" of standards. Those ENs which were published before Brexit and which are currently being published are/are becoming BS EN standards in line with BSI policy (unless this has changed). In my experience, it will take at least 10 years for any new independent BS standards to be published although an existing BS (if one still exists because it wasn't superseded by an EN - some do still exist) might get revised a little quicker. BSI are a major blockage in getting new standards even thought about unless you have a very good "business case" (their business!) to support it.

As a UK manufacturer, there is nothing to stop you CE marking your product as I understand it even if a new BS is published as long as you comply with the relevant standard's requirements. You then decide if you want to comply with the BS if it conflicts to sell in the UK. If you don't want to sell here then don't bother.

Over the last 10 years, Europe has used standards which were meant to allow and encourage trade across borders throughout Europe (and so were written this way) for much more controlling and political ends. Hopefully this back door governance from unelected european civil servants will stop now.

I don't think you'll have much to worry about Rushden unless Europe sting you with big tariffs. And the USA import duty may well reduce.



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Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: RushdenTiger (KT at work) (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 14:58

I know the testing/certification house we use has set up premises/operations in the EU to get over this. So anything new we develop should be ok.

However I'm still unsure whether the CE certification remains valid on current products after the transition period . Add in No deal and I'm further confused.

Still we've taken back control so I guess I should stop being a remoaning snowflake.

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 14:59

Quote:
PrestonTiger
For CE marking, I'll throw you a curved ball.
Depending on which EU directives you're using and in turn what the certification requirements are ... UK-issued certification or checking or assessment (eg from a Notified Body) then if it was a UK based Nobo, those UK certs are no longer valid for any product put on the market from the day we leave the EU.

So - all the UK Companies making and selling stuff into the EU to have to go get new certification from EU-27 based NoBos.
££££ wasted.

Welcome to the real impact of Brexit.

I'm not sure that that is strictly true across the board. Many testing houses have international recognitions and verifications which have nothing to do with Europe.



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Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 15:07

Quote:
RushdenTiger (KT at work)
I know the testing/certification house we use has set up premises/operations in the EU to get over this. So anything new we develop should be ok.
However I'm still unsure whether the CE certification remains valid on current products after the transition period . Add in No deal and I'm further confused.

Still we've taken back control so I guess I should stop being a remoaning snowflake.

Stop moaning yes but you should remain concerned as it is your livelihood.

Ask BSI or someone like the CBI but I can't see any reason why a product which has been tested by a certified lab and been certified as meeting a standard's requirement would suddenly no long be able to be CE marked BY YOU. It's a factory which CE marks a product. It is a factory gate quality assurance system. Read the standard you are testing against. It will tell you in it.



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Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: RushdenTiger (KT at work) (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 15:20

Okey dokey. I'll get on to it.

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: PrestonTiger (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 16:17

Quote:
Yorkie
Quote:
PrestonTiger
For CE marking, I'll throw you a curved ball.
Depending on which EU directives you're using and in turn what the certification requirements are ... UK-issued certification or checking or assessment (eg from a Notified Body) then if it was a UK based Nobo, those UK certs are no longer valid for any product put on the market from the day we leave the EU.

So - all the UK Companies making and selling stuff into the EU to have to go get new certification from EU-27 based NoBos.


££££ wasted.

Welcome to the real impact of Brexit.

I'm not sure that that is strictly true across the board. Many testing houses have international recognitions and verifications which have nothing to do with Europe.

Yes some may well have approvals etc across the world.
But if they are an accredited NoBo (against which ever EU directive applies) in multiple countries, then the certs will still be issued by an EU based 'country level' body (what I mean is that whilst big certification companies like TUV may well have multiple accreditations in different places, if they issued it as say a UK accredited body (accreditation from UKAS) then it's no longer valid after 31/12/2020 in real Europe). If issued under their say German accred, then still OK in real Europe.

But if you're selling into the EU then it has to be cert'd by an EU based body (eg medical devices, PPE, pressure equipment, lifts, diesel engines, elecrical devices like washing machines and hoovers, fridges, toys, etc etc etc). Because the EU wants jurisdiction over them (no good if the certifying body is in China or America and utterly unaccountable and can't be taken to court by the EU).

NoBos are acreddited at a country level then 'notified' to the EU so to be accepted as 'the same in all EU countries.
If UK acreddited that 'notification' is lost come 31/12/2020. Unless a deal is done in 5 months that incorporates the continuation of validity of UK-issued certs.


To answer another Q... if the actual individual product is 'on the EU market' before 31/12/2020 then it's still OK.
But if a product is only made / shipped from the UK factory on 1/1/2021 then not ok (if a UK acredditation was used for the certification).


So what this has done is either (a) taken UK certification bodies out of the EU market (inc UK bodies supporting UK manufacturers), or (b) forced them to pish away lots of money going getting a 2nd accreditation elsewhere in real Europe ,
And /or (c) cost each manufacturer who had previously used a UK acreddited Co to go get EU based certs instead. With that money all going out of the UK economy and into the EU's.


Strangely enough I'm rather having to keep up with all this as I work in a heavily regulated industry with manufacturers around the world, and selling products into many different EU countries !! And it is wasting lots of money. The Gov saying 'manufacturers be prepared' is feckall help as none of us know what the legislative landscape is that we have to prepare for !

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: daktari (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 16:50

No worries, this Government have made so many friends and developed such special relationships since and during the Brexit campaign with major markets like China , Europe , India, USA, Australia, that they will open up with no strings attached, ................then again, we can always fall back on selling arms to Saudi , being such an ethical friend. (Sm161)

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: KevinR (IP Logged)
Date: 25 July, 2020 07:32

Preston Tiger is, unfortunately, correct in his analysis:
CE mark
After 31st December, the CE mark carries no weight within the UK:
and 'consumers may also wish to consider the items that they buy in the UK would no longer be covered by EU liability law, regardless if it had CE stamped on it or not.'
This is one of many areas where agreement and new legislation is necessary - far from making a 'bonfire of red tape', we are about to be overwhelmed by an extraordinary amount of replacement beaurocracy.

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 25 July, 2020 11:14

Sorry but that is wrong. Many standards which came from Europe during our membership included a CE element/requirement within them. These EN standards (cross europe standards) became British Standards and so the CE marking bit remains within them. As part of existing UK law.

CE Marking FAQs from a non-political position.

There are some products which I know of where you "self declare" at the factory gate. You type test the product so you know that you can achieve the CE mark requirements. The situation is not the same for all products.

One thing that we can agree on is that it is a big mess. But then it was when we were in Europe too. CEN consultants for standards regularly changed and different consultants had different interpretations of the CEN rules. On CEN consultant we had for about 18 months changed his position on major stuff between meetings and even during a two day meeting!!

On a side point, the Construction Products Regulations in this country basically go unregulated as it is Trading Standards who are meant to enforce them but they have neither the staff nor understanding of how they work to do so.



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Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: IDLETIMES (IP Logged)
Date: 25 July, 2020 11:53

And what is the betting that, within a generation, we will either have rejoined the E.U. or our application is being processed

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 25 July, 2020 12:00

Or that Denmark or Holland have joined us in leaving?



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Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: seventyeight (IP Logged)
Date: 25 July, 2020 14:44

Or Italy

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 25 July, 2020 15:12

Might be a while before Italy can afford to leave. They currently need Europe's Germany's cash!



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Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: IDLETIMES (IP Logged)
Date: 25 July, 2020 20:22

Within a generation, I would think nil in all cases, too many other things to worry about at the moment

Re: OT. Brexit and British Standards.
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 29 July, 2020 17:05

indeed, paying for Covid is one thing and both the EU and UK need to balance some books.

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