Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: Howiefez (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 08:46

Having no intimate knowledge of the details of the salary cap, I unable to pass judgement on the rights and wrongs of Saracens position (without transparency no one else has either!), but it seems that the rest of the Premiership acting as judge and jury, has condemned Saracens to relegation already.
Instead of being forced to play in the Championship next year and possibly beyond, perhaps one route out of the mess is to apply to permanently play in the Guinness Pro14, replacing one of the South African teams. At least then Saracens would be on a level salary playing field with the Irish and the also with the French.
Accepting this would have many ramifications, for example, the English international players, Saracens Storm etc, is this a possibility? I'd rather see Munster, Leinster and Scarlets visiting Allianz Park than Ampthill and Ealing.
Comments please.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: Pot Hale (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 09:35

It's not as simple as that. The PRO14 is owned by the three unions - IRFU, SRU and WRU - through Celtic Rugby DAC. the Italian (FIR) and South African (SARU) unions have Participation Agreements with Celtic Rugby to provide teams to compete in the PRO14. Saracens are a standalone club.

Saracens would not be on a level playing field with the other clubs in the comp if they could spend more. The other teams are largely controlled by their unions and have to operate within set budgets, generating much of their revenues from their own gates, sponsorships, etc. They receive a contribution from their union to the salaries of players on a tiered or ranked basis in the order of 20,000 to 90,000 depending on the player's ranking. Most players are at the lower end.

The Irish teams have to operate to strict foreign player quotas - no more than four non-Irish qualified players per squad - and are also controlled by playing position - only 1 hooker, 1 scrum-half, etc allowed in the system. The Welsh teams are higher with 6-7 foreign players per squad.

In short, not a runner.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 09:50

Howiefez, Iíve been a regular defender of you guys on this and other forums so I really hope youíre post is said in jest. If not, oh dear.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: derbyshire fan (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 10:25

because we would need the permission of the RFU and the three unions that operate the Pro12; this is not a decision that can unilaterally be taken by a club. Nor is it a PRL matter. So this is a complete non-starter

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: warwick5763 (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 11:19

I am ready to accept all punishment. This has just got worse and worse. The days of "Thank God we are not playing all of Hartlepool" beckon.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: plzd (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 11:33

Quote:
Howiefez
Having no intimate knowledge of the details of the salary cap, I unable to pass judgement on the rights and wrongs of Saracens position (without transparency no one else has either!), but it seems that the rest of the Premiership acting as judge and jury, has condemned Saracens to relegation already.
Instead of being forced to play in the Championship next year and possibly beyond, perhaps one route out of the mess is to apply to permanently play in the Guinness Pro14, replacing one of the South African teams. At least then Saracens would be on a level salary playing field with the Irish and the also with the French.
Accepting this would have many ramifications, for example, the English international players, Saracens Storm etc, is this a possibility? I'd rather see Munster, Leinster and Scarlets visiting Allianz Park than Ampthill and Ealing.
Comments please.

So the Championship clubs are not god enough for you? If the club had not cheated they would not have to play these " "inferior" clubs who embody true rugby values.

The fact is Sarries were found guilty of cheating systemically over years. They have the same squad now that they had at the end of last season when they were proved to be cheating. Do you think other clubs should just accept that then. Is that right for the other clubs and their fans?

An example needs to be made to ensure that Sarries do not continue in the same way and that others are not encouraged to cheat in the same manner.

I am sure that as we have all been told that the reason players go to Sarries is for the ethos and camaraderie and not the money the players will all accept a reduction in salary to stay.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 11:56

Howiefez, if this all comes to fruition and you do get relegated as a result, isn't trying to join the Pro14 a bit like taking your ball home and not letting anyone else play?

If you are deemed to have cheated to a point where relegation is the punishment, surely it would be better PR to accept the punishment, bide your time and come back with a clean slate rather than hopping from league to league whenever things don't go your way.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: mfc (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 12:13

Thereís a really good reason why not, itís call accepting our punishment. If we thought this was a good action (and personally I donít) we first need to accept and serve our punishment.

Once declared fit and proper to return the Premiership, if the Pro 14 or another league was desirable then thatís the point to petition.

Edit - In other words I agree entirely with what Saint Stokey said above - apologies



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/01/2020 12:16 by mfc.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 12:22

That's right, cheat and run away. The sense of entitlement is breathtaking. Championship rugby not good enough for you? But happy to condemn other clubs to it when they stick to the rules. Amazing.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: wolfgangvonb77 (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 12:40

Gray let's see in the future how many clubs have really stick to the rules

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 12:51

If any other club breaks the laws/ rules, Saints included, they deserve to be punished. Simple as that.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 13:02

Quote:
wolfgangvonb77
Gray let's see in the future how many clubs have really stick to the rules

Ah yes, the old everybody is is doing it excuse. Well, guess what, only one club has been found to have cheated systematically and over a period of years.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: TonyTaff (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 15:20

Quote:
derbyshire fan
because we would need the permission of the RFU and the three unions that operate the Pro12; this is not a decision that can unilaterally be taken by a club. Nor is it a PRL matter. So this is a complete non-starter

Nailed it.



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Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: wolfgangvonb77 (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 16:34

not an excuse I'm sure it's still happening at moment but it hasn't come to light and as said if we go down I'll go to games in the championship.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: TimothyQ (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 16:57

If this was an option for any club in England (it isnít, but letís pretend), it ought to be Newcastle. They are the injured party.

Re: Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Posted by: BlackheathSarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2020 18:07

Simple answer to OP, because that isn't our League. I agree with mfc too. We have been found guilty of breaching the cap now we need to accept the punishment.

However ...

Quote:
Pot Hale
Saracens would not be on a level playing field with the other clubs in the comp if they could spend more
Are you by any chance a comedian in your spare time because that one is a belter.
The Pro14 has no cap and the teams salary spend vary from Italy and Dragons, rumoured to be around £3M a few years ago to Leinster, spending Premiership and possibly Top14 levels of money if they had to assemble that team in any way other than the dual-contract/no-cap manner that the League allows them. It makes the currently revealed inequities in the Premiership look fairly benign when the "Top" club is outspending the lowest by multiples of 100%s.

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