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Re: O/T Election
Posted by: Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 14:32

Does that include the Banks' bail-out, or is that treated separately?

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 14:41

Quote:
Dorset Boy
Labour's Shadow Health Secretary was on R5 this morning.The NHS doesn't have enough staff he said (but he clearly doesn't know it is the 5th largest employer on the planet with 1.7 million employees). He then said about throwing more and more money at the NHS, but zero mention of reform.
He followed up by saying we should have a grown up conversation about the future of the NHS, but anytime anyone dares suggest reform and change the left shoot them. Totally disingenious of him to suggest Labour are interested in any conversation about NHS reform.

Agreed. Living in Belgium, I can safely say I'd be happy having their style of healthcare in the UK. Is the person going through the hospital door going to see any difference? No. Do poor people receive different treatment? No.

Instead, Labour just shout 'US healthcare' and 'privatisation', the voters buy it, the Tories run scared and then we're left with the same system, asking for ever more money with no plan or incentive on how to improve.

An NHS is not a bad idea, though other ways exist. But it's expanded so far from it's initial remit that we really need to have a grown up discussion and decide what we need and how we pay for it. It's not a religion where dogma must be accepted.



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Re: O/T Election
Posted by: TOKS (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 14:46

I believe it was treated separately Mike, but I'm not 100% sure.

Labour talk about their spending promises being funded by reversing corporation tax and taxing "the wealthiest in society". I read somewhere else (and I am racking my brains to remember where) that an independent think-tank had worked out that, under the Labour spending plans, the increasing spending would hit those earning £28,000 and over. Now £28,000 doesn't really strike me as the wealthiest in society.

If I remember where I saw it I'll link to it. Has anyone else seen something similar which attempts to unravel the impact of the increase in spending on "ordinary" people (yes, I know our mums tell us we are all special....)

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: SimonG19 (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 14:47

Quote:
annie blackthorn
Sadly we are (or some of us are) being duped. Last night's Conservative Party Political with Boris only starring role (where did the teabag go or did he not actually drink that mug of tea) said it all.
Boris and his ideological shortsighted rightwing self interested privileged gang backed by the cash of wealthy investors, will get it. We will leave the EU without a deal. The less well off will then find out exactly what they voted for over the next 5 years, many of whom will find their jobs have disappeared esp north of Manchester, The US will be the only beneficiaries of any trade deal we manage to persuade them to agree to. I'd almost bet that in 20 years we will back in a European trading organisation.

You have highlighted in a nutshell the problem with politics.

Politicians spending far too much time slagging off each other and far too little time telling us what they will do to improve the situation.

And it's the same in all the main parties and it's why people have no respect for them.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: TOKS (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 15:01

That's been the situation since time immemorial and I have no idea how you could change it.

Chuck in the modern phenomenon of prioritising your own beliefs over those of your constituents and you can see why lots of people have lost faith in "the system".

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 15:02

Mike the Taxi and TOKS

Government spending has not reduced in the past 10 years.

The pace of increase was reduced from what Gordon Brown had planned.

Government revenue (tax) has been increasing at a faster rate than government spending which is why the annual deficit has been gradually reduced over this time period.

The deficit each year, ie the amount that we as a nation overspend, has been financed by borrowing each year such that our borrowings as a result are some £1.85trillion which have increased massively under the Coalition and Conservative Governments.

The funds used to bail out the banks are in fact assets, albeit somewhat down from when we first committed the funds.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 15:24

Quote:
annie blackthorn
Sadly we are (or some of us are) being duped. Last night's Conservative Party Political with Boris only starring role (where did the teabag go or did he not actually drink that mug of tea) said it all.
Boris and his ideological shortsighted rightwing self interested privileged gang backed by the cash of wealthy investors, will get it. We will leave the EU without a deal. The less well off will then find out exactly what they voted for over the next 5 years, many of whom will find their jobs have disappeared esp north of Manchester, The US will be the only beneficiaries of any trade deal we manage to persuade them to agree to. I'd almost bet that in 20 years we will back in a European trading organisation.


Sensible people with some or lots of assets are backing a Conservative Party to win the election because history has shown that Labour Governments, always end in economic problems which is in fact no good for anyone, including people who start with no money in the first place.

I believe, as do a number of senior ex-labour ministers, that the plans of the Corbyn led Labour Party will, if implemented lead to an economic crisis quicker and worse than we have ever experienced before.

If the Conservative win the election we will leave with the Deal that has been agreed with the EU and is on the table now ready to be signed. I do not understand why you think we will leave with no deal unless we end up with a hung parliament who cannot agree on this deal and the EU decline to allow yet another extension.

As I have said repeatedly it is my belief that wages of the less well off will start to rise, which is the main reason I voted to leave. A shortage of available labour would do wonders for wage rates......In a company I am involved with we were paying £11 per hour, have lost a few people for £13 per hour, whom we are now trying to encourage back at £14.

It will be this available labour shortage, which will only get worse over the next 20 years, which will protect labour rights/pay and conditions.

There is an old saying in my world which is, "follow the money". Sterling has been gently moving up, the shares in UK'centric companies have been rising sharply in the past month. The FTSE 100 companies are approximately 25% UK, 25% EU, 25% USA and 25% Rest of the World. Therefore if sterling goes down they tend to go up as overseas profits, being 75% of the total go up on translation. All the BBC reports is sterling going down and the FTSE 100 going up or down........a much better index for UK plc is the FTSE 250.

I am hopeful in fact that within two years we will be back in a formal trading relationship with the EU. Given we are today as compliant as anybody............and we are a large market on their doorstep with a big deficit to them!!

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 15:43

There are some clever, educated people out there in all our political parties and abroad. Sadly I do not think that Johnson and Trump are amongst them.

I can put up with one annoying leader but having 2 in power at the same time is a concern.

I actually like the idea of an income tax rise, it is a sensible option. What use is a few hundred extra pounds in the bank when you can't channel that into improving all the important state provided functions that are discussed during elections?

It doesn't seem popular though, the LDs are dropping in the polls. I thought they would gave gained some remainers along the way.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 16:16

Quote:
B4thB4ck
There are some clever, educated people out there in all our political parties and abroad. Sadly I do not think that Johnson and Trump are amongst them.

In terms of education putting Trump and Johnson together is nonsense, Trump is nowhere near as educated as Johnson. The fact that they hold different political views to others should not be confused with their intellectual ability. Johnson holds a Classics degree from Balliol College, Oxford. In addition he has far more liberal views on LGBT issues for example where Trump has actively legislated against those issues. They are different leaders.
I don't believe Jeremy Corbyn has any qualifications in further education.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough your old enough!

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 16:25

The below is sensible mans thinking..... but sometimes a show of real intent is required to stop people playing politics ..hence no deal on the table.


copied from bsj.
..... within two years we will be back in a formal trading relationship with the EU. Given we are today as compliant as anybody............and we are a large market on their doorstep with a big deficit to them!!

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 17:21

Sadly B4thB4ck I don't think anyone has ever got elected by promising a tax rise.......the Lib Dems tried it before with a penny on income tax and all the proceeds to go to the NHS as I recall.

Had a conversation last night with a lady who volunteers, is in the Salvation Army, is basically a very lovely person and even on a bad day is a much nicer and kinder person than I could ever be even if I really tried!

She is a Labour supporter and voter (certainly more old school labour) one of her volunteering jobs is working in a Food Bank and says that a number of people are coming in for food who are abusing the system........

Like B4thB4ck I would pay more tax, happily, if I knew it was going to people who she would consider deserved it .

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: Chris1850 (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 17:22

It's all very well both parties pledging to increase spending on the NHS, Education, Welfare, etc etc. Their priority should be to ensure that the vast sums of money already being spent, are spent more efficiently. The blatant wastes that are evident in all Government Depts and Local Authorities is criminal.

It is much too easy to simply throw extra money at the problems as a solution. The problem is that there is no incentive or accountability in the Public Sector to ensure that funds are allocated and spent wisely.

I despair of both parties' spending and revenue raising rhetoric. But I do genuinely worry about the effect on the economy of Labour's plans which are completely irresponsible. If you think Brexit will be bad for the economy (which it will), then you ain't seen anything should John Mcdonnell ever get his hands on the purse strings.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 17:56

Quote:
Chris1850
It's all very well both parties pledging to increase spending on the NHS, Education, Welfare, etc etc. Their priority should be to ensure that the vast sums of money already being spent, are spent more efficiently. The blatant wastes that are evident in all Government Depts and Local Authorities is criminal.

Do you have concrete examples of the wastes to which you refer or is this an "everybody knows" assertion?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 18:11

If you can't get to see a doctor or dentist or policeman when you want one it is little comfort to be told we are running public services really efficiently.

If it is easy to throw tax at a problem and solve it then lets do it sooner rather than later and work on the efficiency as we go along. That's a given.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 18:38

Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Chris1850
It's all very well both parties pledging to increase spending on the NHS, Education, Welfare, etc etc. Their priority should be to ensure that the vast sums of money already being spent, are spent more efficiently. The blatant wastes that are evident in all Government Depts and Local Authorities is criminal.

Do you have concrete examples of the wastes to which you refer or is this an "everybody knows" assertion?

Iíll give you an example. In 2014 I had an operation and recovering in a ward afterwards. The Surgeon had agreed to let me go home, but I had a swollen ankle which didnít affect my walking. I had a visitation from the Registrar and the Surgeonís assistant who diagnosed gout but the registrar wanted it X-rayed. They forgot to organise the X-ray so I stayed another night.

Next day X-ray was done but not until quite late in the day so I stayed another night as Registrar had not made a decision!

I was discharged the following day so I had used up a bed for two extra nights because of communication issues!

I have other examples! The NHS was great for me as I recovered from my two bouts in the BRI and RUH but yes there is waste!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/11/2019 18:45 by CoochieCoo.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 18:56

No purines for you then CC! winking smiley



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough your old enough!

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 19:11

Funnily enough they gave me something for the gout And it disappeared and now I can eat and drink purines very happily, in moderation of course!

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 19:23

I'm sure you'd feel better if you had exactly the same experience, these things happen in big organisations, public and otherwise, but were paying for an insurance middle man as well.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 19:33

Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Chris1850
It's all very well both parties pledging to increase spending on the NHS, Education, Welfare, etc etc. Their priority should be to ensure that the vast sums of money already being spent, are spent more efficiently. The blatant wastes that are evident in all Government Depts and Local Authorities is criminal.

Do you have concrete examples of the wastes to which you refer or is this an "everybody knows" assertion?

Iíll give you an example. In 2014 I had an operation and recovering in a ward afterwards. The Surgeon had agreed to let me go home, but I had a swollen ankle which didnít affect my walking. I had a visitation from the Registrar and the Surgeonís assistant who diagnosed gout but the registrar wanted it X-rayed. They forgot to organise the X-ray so I stayed another night.

Next day X-ray was done but not until quite late in the day so I stayed another night as Registrar had not made a decision!

I was discharged the following day so I had used up a bed for two extra nights because of communication issues!

I have other examples! The NHS was great for me as I recovered from my two bouts in the BRI and RUH but yes there is waste!

And would that "waste" be eliminated by reducing funding to the NHS?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: JFPC (IP Logged)
Date: 13 November, 2019 19:41

Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Chris1850
It's all very well both parties pledging to increase spending on the NHS, Education, Welfare, etc etc. Their priority should be to ensure that the vast sums of money already being spent, are spent more efficiently. The blatant wastes that are evident in all Government Depts and Local Authorities is criminal.

Do you have concrete examples of the wastes to which you refer or is this an "everybody knows" assertion?

Iíll give you an example. In 2014 I had an operation and recovering in a ward afterwards. The Surgeon had agreed to let me go home, but I had a swollen ankle which didnít affect my walking. I had a visitation from the Registrar and the Surgeonís assistant who diagnosed gout but the registrar wanted it X-rayed. They forgot to organise the X-ray so I stayed another night.

Next day X-ray was done but not until quite late in the day so I stayed another night as Registrar had not made a decision!

I was discharged the following day so I had used up a bed for two extra nights because of communication issues!

I have other examples! The NHS was great for me as I recovered from my two bouts in the BRI and RUH but yes there is waste!

If you think that the private sector is better allow me to relate how a friend (John) got on with Western Power (WP) when he wanted a three phase electric supply.

Having gone through the paperwork and paid for the job he was informed of the scheme of work:
Day one; the pole would have been delivered and a team would arrive to erect it.
Day two; a transformer would be delivered and mounted on the pole.
Day three; the wires would be connected.

The day before work is to commence John notes that there is no pole so rings WP to let them know. They thank him for the call and promise to notify the pole erecting team.
On day one the pole erecting team arrives but as the pole isn't there, there is nothing for them to do. They and John both inform WP about the situation, John asks why his call yesterday wasn't passed on and WP promise to inform the transformer mounting team.
On day two the transformer arrived as did the transformer mounting team. Again they and John rang WP to inform them of the situation and John reminded them of his wasted calls of the previous days in the hope that this time the message really would get passed on.
On day three the wire connecting team arrived.



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