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Re: O/T Election
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 28 December, 2019 19:48

Quote:
gaz59
Quote:
Mike the Taxi
If everyone's being told to get a degree, who is going to build the houses that they, in future life, will live in?
There is a dire shortage of brickies, plumbers, roofers and carpenters.

Well that problem if it exists is gonna get a whole lot worse post brexit

I gather steps are being taken to stop the cross channel migrant problem by the Govt including the use of drones. Perhaps you should have a word Gaz and tell them how awful things are going to be over ‘ere!

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 28 December, 2019 20:12

Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
gaz59
Are you serious sw? Nursing and teaching degrees are hands on practice based qualifications
And if you go to A and E or a minor injury unit you will be assessed by a nurse that has happened through research and development

But of course many tasks require more basic skills. The same goes for any profession but learning those basics alongside academic studies is clearly the best way to develop top practitioners

Gaz, the NHS has struggled for nurses in recent times, a big reason is precisely the 'degree nurse' issue. These elite degree based nurses simply think themselves too elite to do bed baths, clean and disinfect surfaces and other distasteful jobs. Basic cleaning is contracted to fit a budget. (Tony Blair's bright idea to give health authorities free reign to decide how they spend it.)

I don't need a degree qualified nurse to call for 'clean up', and treat me like a thesis. Someone who has empathy is worth 10 academic health workers. Mike is right we need 'Indians not Chiefs'!

By insisting nurses have 3 A levels you are closing the door to so many practical caring people.

Fully agree with this SW. In 2009 I was waiting for a slot at the BRI for a by pass operation and spent a couple of nights in the Cardiac Ward in the RUH. I complained that the loo was filthy but the nursing staff weren’t responsible and it would be done by the cleaners in the morning!

In the good old days when we had SRNs and SENs and a Matron that would never happen. My wife was an SEN and no job was beneath her and Matron ensured that all nurses put their hands to the pump. Nowadays they seem to spend all their time on computers!

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 December, 2019 23:09

Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
gaz59
Are you serious sw? Nursing and teaching degrees are hands on practice based qualifications
And if you go to A and E or a minor injury unit you will be assessed by a nurse that has happened through research and development

But of course many tasks require more basic skills. The same goes for any profession but learning those basics alongside academic studies is clearly the best way to develop top practitioners

Gaz, the NHS has struggled for nurses in recent times, a big reason is precisely the 'degree nurse' issue. These elite degree based nurses simply think themselves too elite to do bed baths, clean and disinfect surfaces and other distasteful jobs. Basic cleaning is contracted to fit a budget. (Tony Blair's bright idea to give health authorities free reign to decide how they spend it.)

I don't need a degree qualified nurse to call for 'clean up', and treat me like a thesis. Someone who has empathy is worth 10 academic health workers. Mike is right we need 'Indians not Chiefs'!

By insisting nurses have 3 A levels you are closing the door to so many practical caring people.

Hey we are way off topic her but there is no absolute requirement for degree or A levels to get into nursing, check here: [www.healthcareers.nhs.uk]

And there are so many other routes into the nursing field. The role of Nurse Assistant, like Teaching Assistant has evolved and developed unbelievably. Same is true of other traditional public sector professions like Social Work

The reason why the NHS has struggled for nurse recruitment is simply because NHS Trusts are going bust. Partly poor management in many cases but primarily due to serious under-funding to meet demand

Raising the profile of the nurse to be a professional expert in their field with a salary to attract high calibre people to give the best possible care and support has been the best thing for the NHS.

And likewise the restructure of the teacher salary grades with significant uplifts has boosted not only recruitment and retention but also morale for a profession that was on its knees. Blair's election strapline of Education, Education, Education not only struck a chord with parents worried sick about their kids not achieving their potential but also a workforce in schools that head been made to feel third class

If you can't accept that the let me ask a question that will bring it round to thread topic

What are the two most important roles in our society that have the biggest impact on our productivity and happiness?

Answer: a) helping people to stay healthy and b) helping people to learn more. If you can't agree with that the we have a deeper problem with our discourse

So why don't we pay people in this areas of work the most, rather than bankers, hedge fund managers etc?

Answer: the markets

That is why capital fails

It's a values thing but our political structures are designed to put people in positions of power whose values are something totally different.

Our political leaders come from the educational system designed to keep the status quo from which our bankers, hedge fund managers etc benefit so nothing will change

But that is not failure in the eyes of those who benefit and so we go around

Capitalism is a system with serious structural flaws

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 29 December, 2019 00:31

Well put Gaz.

"That is precisely the problem with these professions, we don't need students that study in their bedrooms we need students that study in the real world that 'get' life and can relate. "

From my experience graduates have very often "got life" far more than those that spent those 3 or 4 years in the same environment they grew up in.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 29 December, 2019 00:36

Quote:
gaz59
If you can't accept that the let me ask a question that will bring it round to thread topic

Absolutely priceless! Please don’t patronise.

How is this relevant to the Bexit thread then as an example?

Quote:
gaz59
Democracy is like history, it is the winners that get to define it
How can that be described as being democratic?

A peoples' government? Yep, so long as it is the right people .... through the eyes of Johnson and Cummings

So I posted this:

Quote:
shipwrecked
Just wonder how long this thread will thrash around for, agree with Warrenball on this. Drifting off topic into a Lords debate now! …….

And you criticise me for going off topic. Both these political threads have been of topic since Dec 12th!



Quote:
gaz59
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
gaz59
Are you serious sw? Nursing and teaching degrees are hands on practice based qualifications
And if you go to A and E or a minor injury unit you will be assessed by a nurse that has happened through research and development

But of course many tasks require more basic skills. The same goes for any profession but learning those basics alongside academic studies is clearly the best way to develop top practitioners

Gaz, the NHS has struggled for nurses in recent times, a big reason is precisely the 'degree nurse' issue. These elite degree based nurses simply think themselves too elite to do bed baths, clean and disinfect surfaces and other distasteful jobs. Basic cleaning is contracted to fit a budget. (Tony Blair's bright idea to give health authorities free reign to decide how they spend it.)

I don't need a degree qualified nurse to call for 'clean up', and treat me like a thesis. Someone who has empathy is worth 10 academic health workers. Mike is right we need 'Indians not Chiefs'!

By insisting nurses have 3 A levels you are closing the door to so many practical caring people.

Hey we are way off topic her but there is no absolute requirement for degree or A levels to get into nursing, check here: [www.healthcareers.nhs.uk]


Extract from your reference on entry requirements, you are arguing against yourself.

Entry requirements

Entry requirements for nursing degree courses vary because each university sets its own entry criteria, but you are likely to need at least two (usually three) A-levels or equivalent qualifications at level 3


Quote:
gaz59
The reason why the NHS has struggled for nurse recruitment is simply because NHS Trusts are going bust. Partly poor management in many cases but primarily due to serious under-funding to meet demand

Consider this, Blair gave NHS trusts budgets to do what they wanted with. Those trusts decided to fill the NHS with admin, and degree nurses rather than SEN's and SRN's that were the original basis of the NHS.

Its all very well theoretically improving the Health system but what was needed was practical help.
Never happened under Labour, they then ran out of money, hand over an empty treasury and then complained the NHS was underfunded during a Conservative government.

But you are right I'm off topic so I'll not post on these political threads any more they are becoming far too adversarial, they don't change opinions and are divisive rather than constructive.
I'm sticking to rugby from now on. These are spent topics.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough your old enough!

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: Chris1850 (IP Logged)
Date: 29 December, 2019 00:38

Quote:
gaz59
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
gaz59
Are you serious sw? Nursing and teaching degrees are hands on practice based qualifications
And if you go to A and E or a minor injury unit you will be assessed by a nurse that has happened through research and development

But of course many tasks require more basic skills. The same goes for any profession but learning those basics alongside academic studies is clearly the best way to develop top practitioners

Gaz, the NHS has struggled for nurses in recent times, a big reason is precisely the 'degree nurse' issue. These elite degree based nurses simply think themselves too elite to do bed baths, clean and disinfect surfaces and other distasteful jobs. Basic cleaning is contracted to fit a budget. (Tony Blair's bright idea to give health authorities free reign to decide how they spend it.)

I don't need a degree qualified nurse to call for 'clean up', and treat me like a thesis. Someone who has empathy is worth 10 academic health workers. Mike is right we need 'Indians not Chiefs'!

By insisting nurses have 3 A levels you are closing the door to so many practical caring people.

Hey we are way off topic her but there is no absolute requirement for degree or A levels to get into nursing, check here: [www.healthcareers.nhs.uk]

And there are so many other routes into the nursing field. The role of Nurse Assistant, like Teaching Assistant has evolved and developed unbelievably. Same is true of other traditional public sector professions like Social Work

The reason why the NHS has struggled for nurse recruitment is simply because NHS Trusts are going bust. Partly poor management in many cases but primarily due to serious under-funding to meet demand

Raising the profile of the nurse to be a professional expert in their field with a salary to attract high calibre people to give the best possible care and support has been the best thing for the NHS.

And likewise the restructure of the teacher salary grades with significant uplifts has boosted not only recruitment and retention but also morale for a profession that was on its knees. Blair's election strapline of Education, Education, Education not only struck a chord with parents worried sick about their kids not achieving their potential but also a workforce in schools that head been made to feel third class

If you can't accept that the let me ask a question that will bring it round to thread topic

What are the two most important roles in our society that have the biggest impact on our productivity and happiness?

Answer: a) helping people to stay healthy and b) helping people to learn more. If you can't agree with that the we have a deeper problem with our discourse

So why don't we pay people in this areas of work the most, rather than bankers, hedge fund managers etc?

Answer: the markets

That is why capital fails

It's a values thing but our political structures are designed to put people in positions of power whose values are something totally different.

Our political leaders come from the educational system designed to keep the status quo from which our bankers, hedge fund managers etc benefit so nothing will change

But that is not failure in the eyes of those who benefit and so we go around

Capitalism is a system with serious structural flaws

Don't wish to be rude but this must be one of the most deluded posts on this thread.

How do you think the people thst provide nursing care and education are paid for? Correct. Through the taxes paid by the wealth creators.

Without the wealth creators (Yes, that includes bankers and hedge fund managers - in fact the services sector accounts for around 80% of the country's GDP), you have no means of funding the health or education sectors.

The answer is to grow the wealth, not force those thst create it to relocate. Cutting Corporation Tax would be an excellent start.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 29 December, 2019 02:56

The reason that the nurses are spending all their time seeing patients and "on their computers" (in an electronic records based NHS remember) is that we are not training enough doctors to replace the ones we used to get from overseas. We have the fewest doctors per head of population in the EU.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 29 December, 2019 09:16

Quote:
joethefanatic
The reason that the nurses are spending all their time seeing patients and "on their computers" (in an electronic records based NHS remember) is that we are not training enough doctors to replace the ones we used to get from overseas. We have the fewest doctors per head of population in the EU.

Just to be clear, this is only in part the government's fault. The BMA might well be Britain's last remaining 'effective' Union... They are a pain to deal with, which is probably to their credit.

e.g. "[The BMA] voted [...] to restrict the number of places at medical schools to avoid “overproduction of doctors with limited career opportunities.” They also agreed on a complete ban on opening new medical schools.

David Sochart [...] warned that in the current job climate allowing too many new doctors into the market would risk devaluing the profession..."



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Re: O/T Election
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 30 December, 2019 04:04

Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
joethefanatic
The reason that the nurses are spending all their time seeing patients and "on their computers" (in an electronic records based NHS remember) is that we are not training enough doctors to replace the ones we used to get from overseas. We have the fewest doctors per head of population in the EU.

Just to be clear, this is only in part the government's fault. The BMA might well be Britain's last remaining 'effective' Union... They are a pain to deal with, which is probably to their credit.

e.g. "[The BMA] voted [...] to restrict the number of places at medical schools to avoid “overproduction of doctors with limited career opportunities.” They also agreed on a complete ban on opening new medical schools.

David Sochart [...] warned that in the current job climate allowing too many new doctors into the market would risk devaluing the profession..."

Which, as far as I can tell, are quotations from an article in the BMJ dated July 2008.

The GMC has been highlighting the crisis in physician staffing levels rather more recently.

[blogs.bmj.com]

And the government was warned in 2017 on the potential impact of brexit on physician numbers in the NHS.

[www.gponline.com]



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 30/12/2019 06:21 by joethefanatic.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 30 December, 2019 09:49

Quote:
joethefanatic
The GMC has been highlighting the crisis in physician staffing levels rather more recently.

[blogs.bmj.com]

And the government was warned in 2017 on the potential impact of brexit on physician numbers in the NHS.

[www.gponline.com]

Its only intended as an illustration of the mindset - they still limit the number of places to train new doctors (although tend to listen to independent reports more since the junior doctor crisis). Unemployment amongst graduates of medicine is still negligible. Training places in hospitals post-graduation are still not fit for the future and won't meet future demand. It is no surprise they are so keen on EU doctors... (It's also pretty immoral that we let other countries pay for the education while we get the benefit. 'Our NHS', so beloved, and it can't even train it's own doctors, preferring to raid them from countries with lower salaries).



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Re: O/T Election
Posted by: hemington (IP Logged)
Date: 30 December, 2019 11:57

Like we train teachers and nurses and then don't look after them so they go into the private sector or abroad.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 30 December, 2019 17:15

Quote:
hemington
Like we train teachers and nurses and then don't look after them so they go into the private sector or abroad.

That's the crazy thing. We train doctors, nurses and teachers to a high standard and then treat them so badly that they eff off to somewhere more agreeable. And then we get surprised and upset. "Intelligent human beings with options in looking after their own interests shocker."



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: Chris1850 (IP Logged)
Date: 30 December, 2019 17:55

Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
hemington
Like we train teachers and nurses and then don't look after them so they go into the private sector or abroad.

That's the crazy thing. We train doctors, nurses and teachers to a high standard and then treat them so badly that they eff off to somewhere more agreeable. And then we get surprised and upset. "Intelligent human beings with options in looking after their own interests shocker."

The bigger problem is that we don't train enough of our own people to be doctors and nurses, because we can charge foreign students huge sums to come to our universities.

Universities should exist to promote the education and training of the domestic population, first and foremost. They should not be the commercial institutions they have now become.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 30 December, 2019 18:23

Don't we charge our own students huge amounts to attend?

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 30 December, 2019 19:53

Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
hemington
Like we train teachers and nurses and then don't look after them so they go into the private sector or abroad.

That's the crazy thing. We train doctors, nurses and teachers to a high standard and then treat them so badly that they eff off to somewhere more agreeable. And then we get surprised and upset. "Intelligent human beings with options in looking after their own interests shocker."

Apart from a few countries, that is the case everywhere. Most countries build that into the education system and train more. Unless you want to play an endlessly competitive game that will always be the case.

Our fortune is that most of the world learns English, which has always given us an advantage in importing Labour. Our disadvantage is that other English-speaking nations are among some of the most prosperous and desirable in the world.

Given that our services have other issues, I wouldn't put increasing pay to levels in richer countries than ours (per head) as my top priority. We may retain a few more, import a few less but we still don't train enough.

Why? In medicine, there is no shortage of willing and able students. They don't want to deflate wages. For teaching and nursing it is different; the prestige and general undesirable nature of the job doesn't match the cost of the educational requirements. They both have better solutions than increasing pay.



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Re: O/T Election
Posted by: Chris1850 (IP Logged)
Date: 30 December, 2019 20:41

Quote:
DanWiley
Don't we charge our own students huge amounts to attend?

Significantly less than foreign students.

Whatever your views on the Student Loan system, my point is that there are thousands of domestic students more than capable of training to be doctors, vets, engineers etc but not enough university places available for them. Because universities allocate a disproportionately high number of places to foreign students who pay significantly higher fees.

I repeat my earlier point. Universities have necessarily become commercial rather than educational establishments, much to the general detriment of the country as a whole and young students in particular

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: BBandW (IP Logged)
Date: 27 January, 2020 18:17

Not a single UK government minister attended the 75th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz today. Other countries sent their President or Head of State. I'm sure Johnson would have been there if it was during the run up to the election - or maybe I'm just cynical.

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 27 January, 2020 18:58

Yes seems odd. Lords Pickles and HRH Camilla went obo the UK.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

Re: O/T Election
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 27 January, 2020 22:48

Johnson attended one in London...Macron attended one in Paris

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