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Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: ballsout (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 00:36

Farrell/Tuilagi/Slade (shudder) wouldn't have made any difference in the Final. It was more likely he was talking about starting Kruis and Marler.

There was no selection muddle, he knew what team he wanted to play for what game, played them, and got to a world cup final. He then persisted when (with the benefit of hindsight) he should have made tweaks.

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: fat lock (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 07:33

I like Eddie's approach, and would be keen to see him stay on and build on what he's achieved so far.

But, you can't ignore some fairly strange selections. Now, I expect his coaches will have had some input into that, so a refresh there may help with fresh views (as long as he doesn't appoint sycophants).
For me his RWC squad selections of Daly, scrum half, Wing, Prop, No 8 all were questionable.
Playing team selections of flyhalf, Daly, No 8 (only due to lack of options) and Wing also appeared less than ideal.
So is he perfect - no. I fact I wonder if he's almost a bit too left field.
Can I see anyone better ?- not till Hooper gets 2 seasons of experience to then be fast tracked in (for clarity on a message ball - that's irony)

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 08:10

Its difficult to get away from the fact that Eddie is one of the best coaches in the world. Gatland, Erasmus, Joseph, Schmidt being the others still active.
The only alternative would be untried, none of those above are available. The RFU want a winning coach with a track record, currently there is no alternative.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 09:39

Quote:
ballsout
There was no selection muddle

I think a 'muddle' is a bit too strong. But usually when head coaches make their selections, they divide opinion. There will be as many people calling for Ford to start as those wanting him on the bench, for example. The weird thing with some of Eddie's selections is that he can mystify 95% of rugby punditry - from the most respected ex-players and journalists down to us pub-bores. And who's to say that his squad mix - too many back 3 players, not enough 3s and 9s - wasn't costly in the end?

Would England have been more or less likely to beat SA in the final if another tight-head and scrum-half had travelled instead of McConnochie, Cokanasiga or Nowell? Reducing Vunipola's workload across the tournament could have paid dividends. Having a bench 9 for the final who could be thrown on at 60 minutes? Joe Marler not having to deal with the distraction of training to cover both sides of the scrum?

Eddie should stop making selections that look like they are designed to demonstrate that only he picks the team, not the media or the public.

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 10:00

He is certainly not predictable when it comes to selection, there may have been a driving reason in the lead up to the RWC but now its a blank sheet of paper. Next selection will be interesting.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 10:40

I think he's also talking absolute garbage about Saracens players deciding to stay with their club rather than England. That's the sort of statement that just makes you scratch your head and wonder what on earth his agenda is. George Ford is in a relegation scrap too. We might be too when it comes down to it. Are Sam, Ant, JJ etc going to stay with Bath?

I suppose you could get a bit of resentment from Exeter players, say, towards the Sarries contingent - but even that's a bit far-fetched.

I doubt if the side that runs on against France will contain more than one player from outside the World Cup squad, and even the bench is unlikely to contain more than 1 or 2 new faces. He might retire Youngs, but Spencer will start. He might move Daly, but 15 would be either Ant or Nowell. He might retire Cole, but it will still be Genge on the bench. Ewels could conceivably leapfrop Lawes/Kruis/Launchbury, but it's a long shot. Who is going to break into midfield unless Ford/Faz/Slade/Tuilagi/JJ are injured?

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 11:06

Its an idiosyncrasy Opti but is it a major flaw, he assembled a team that got us too the final, we hit a bit of bad luck and might have picked a few other players but there are not many that are better and fewer still that are available.

As for Sarries who knows what effect the clubs actions will have on English and European rugby. For my money the search is on for alternatives Farrell and Itoje are hard to replace but who knows if they will stay there. I could see movement possibly to France. Then Eddies issue is to convince the RFU to go the Erasmus route.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: cb2 (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 11:17

I can't see Sarries players missing out on the 6N. I think they get 25,000 match fees for representing England. That would help with the deposit on a new house.

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 11:20

Yeah - idiosyncrasy is right.

Pretty much any scenario is within the bounds of possibility for Sarries. But i'd imagine the most likely one is that a/ they relish the challenge of staying up and pull together on that, b/ PRL and the RFU will be working with Wray to ensure that he doesn't walk away from the game, and - now that he's coughing up the s and the points - that will involve helping him to repair his reputation, and throwing him a few bones around cap regulations. It would be pretty disastrous for the Prem and for England if Sarries were to implode. Look out for plenty of press articles from RFU/PRL bods saying what a good guy Nigel is.

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 11:32

Quote:
Optimist
Yeah - idiosyncrasy is right.
Pretty much any scenario is within the bounds of possibility for Sarries. But i'd imagine the most likely one is that a/ they relish the challenge of staying up and pull together on that, b/ PRL and the RFU will be working with Wray to ensure that he doesn't walk away from the game, and - now that he's coughing up the s and the points - that will involve helping him to repair his reputation, and throwing him a few bones around cap regulations. It would be pretty disastrous for the Prem and for England if Sarries were to implode. Look out for plenty of press articles from RFU/PRL bods saying what a good guy Nigel is.

Sarries won't implode, Wray has made that a super strong group but I can see that squad changing, if not the numbers won't add up. If the squad stays the same there is still something wrong.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 11:34

'New Wales coach Wayne Pivac has named New Zealand-born backs Johnny McNicholl and Willis Halaholo in his first squad.'

This is exactly what I don't want to see from Eddie or any alternative England coach. Both of these guys are 29, Biggar is 30, Even Anscombe will be pushing it at 32. Pivac has an opportunity to get some of these guys valuable experience / exposure, why not give the next wave of Welsh 10s a chance (i.e. who will be peak age for next world cup)?



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 11:48

Quote:
shipwrecked
If the squad stays the same there is still something wrong.

I think as someone said above, Williams will go back to Wales, Barritt is close to retirement. I think PRL and other clubs will cut them some slack to get their house in order now that they've taken their 'medicine'. Nobody wants to see any of the players being the losers here.

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 11:52

Halaholo and McNicholl. I hope Pivac isn't going to be one of those SH coaches who just assumes that if a player is from NZ they must automatically be better than someone who came up through the local system. Eddie did his best - but does anyone remember how close we were to having Brad Shields at the World Cup?

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 13:04

Quote:
Optimist
I He might retire Cole, but it will still be Genge on the bench.

Apples & Pears comparison Opti.
Cole is a Tight Head, Genge a Loose Head.

PG

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 13:22

I get the concern about Pivac selecting Kiwis but he is a cuter coach than people think. He has also picked 3 20 year olds in the squad.

The selection should be viewed not so much as chosing older players but the type of player he has gone for. Johnny McNicholl and Willis Halahol are very different to the Gatland mould in that they avoid contact rather than try to go through it. If that is the way he is going to play, which is the Scarlets way, then behind a decent pack they could do well. Biggest problem will be can they still defend at the same level.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 13:42

Eddie Jone did a great job, but from a selfish point of view I'd like him to move on.....

and take over at Bath

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: cb2 (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 14:11

I would like to see England move the game on in the next few years. A bit like SCW did between 1999 and 2003.

The 1999 23 who lost to SA featured: Greenwood, Catt, Wilkinson, Dawson, Leonard, Vickery, Johnson, Hill, Back and Dallaglio. He then added a bit of magic from Robinson, a bit of power in Cohen and turned us into winners.

Many of this side can stay together for the next 4 years and, with a few alterations, we can win some slams and go into the tournament as the favourite and not as one of the potential favourites.

I don't like the 2 years plan. I would prefer EJ to stay for 4 years or to give it over to someone else now.

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 14:45

I agree with much of that CB - but 2019 was more like the equivalent of 2003 than 1999. And in that sense we are in way better shape. We arrived at the final as favourites even with a very young squad. I'd like to see Eddie aspiring to be like NZ between World Cups when they average 4-5 tries per game and some of their forwards have better skill levels than most other countries' backs.

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: Cowshed Denizen (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 14:54

Quote:
shipwrecked
I get the concern about Pivac selecting Kiwis but he is a cuter coach than people think. He has also picked 3 20 year olds in the squad.
The selection should be viewed not so much as chosing older players but the type of player he has gone for. Johnny McNicholl and Willis Halahol are very different to the Gatland mould in that they avoid contact rather than try to go through it. If that is the way he is going to play, which is the Scarlets way, then behind a decent pack they could do well. Biggest problem will be can they still defend at the same level.

Yes. Both fly-half options in this squad - Sam Davies & Jarrod Evans - are 26 & 23 respectively.

McNicholl & Halaholo are picked because they offer something different to what's currently there - in Halaholo's case a stepping, elusive centre.

If Pivac can marry more attacking flair to the Gatland/Edwards era of defence & mental strength, Wales should stay there or thereabouts. My concern is that the Wales of old will resurface - some nice attacking rugby coupled with average defence & mental fragility at the sharp end.

Re: Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Posted by: Deckchair (IP Logged)
Date: 19 November, 2019 15:29

If Eddie wants it I reckon he has earned the right to choose to stay on, or not.
Its been a long while since an England rugby fan took genuine pride and pleasure in their World Cup team. Four years ago seems like another age. This current team has power, pace, creativity, grit and high levels of skill - from one to twenty-three. They crushed Australia and blitzed the All Blacks and had the team turned up on the day might have even lifted the cup. Maybe next time.
In the meantime we have an incredibly young, talented and powerful squad to build upon and grow and they are playing a brand of rugby the fans want to see. This in large part is down to Eddie.
Eddie has earned the right to choose, I hope he stays.

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