Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Neil-H (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 15:35

Just reading the email I get with Geechs Weekly Column.

He says the reason for the Plays Offs are due to clubs losing there players during the international window, so why don't they have a Play Off for relegation???

Actually I think its a very good point? and some may say, but the bottom clubs don't have many internationals if any?... but what about the clubs they were playing against during the internationals, they could be much weaker and if you want to face them, best to face during international window? So teams may have gained that 1-2 extra win in these periods?

I know there is lots of rugby being played, but I tend to agree with him.... if its right and fair for the top, why not the same for the bottom?

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 15:44

Its a fair point, the issue is though (and it was the same with the playoffs in the championship) Its tough enough building a team to compete in the prem as it is. If you have to wait an extra week or two for a promotion game your left paying over the odds for any players left after the other teams have had first pick.

Currently if your a runaway winner of the championship you can start planning a few weeks early. It can make all the difference.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: serious_saint (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 16:26

I think Neil means a play off between 11th and 12th to decide relegation. Iíve never been a fan of the play offs to decide who are champions but if that is what happens then it should be the same at both ends of the table.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 16:45

Oh in that case... sure :-) i guess it depends on the point difference though. If its 20 then you probably deserve to go down.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/05/2019 16:46 by Duckonstilts.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Arthur (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 16:56

Hi Exeter supporter here reading your notice board before the semi. May the best team win.

On the subject in question of play-offs being motivated by premiership games being played during Internationals, I do think this 'truth' is easily quoted but does it stand up to real examination? The two teams that have provided the most players to International sides this season are Exeter and Saracans. It would appear therefore, that no help is required to compensate them for loosing so many players as their squads have still be able to gather points to finish in the top four in the league.
I have never liked the play-offs and suspect that the real reason they exist is as a money-spinner. Perhaps an alternative solution could be for the semi final matches to start with the team that finishes higher in the league being given a 'starting score' equivalent to the number of points they finished ahead of their opponents in the league. That at least would give some credit to the season long performance of the sides and make finishing as high up the table as possible a real benefit. We finished 30 points ahead of you but will get absolutely no credit for that and we are very aware that you are good enough, especially in a one-off match to win.
It is what it is and everyone knows the rules when they start the season, so no sour grapes from me. But, there must be a better way.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: tedge (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 17:16

Inclined to agree that the plays-off were a money raising invention. I'm not convinced that the international factor has any real bearing on who finishes top. The team which finishes top over the whole season deserves to be called the best team and should win the title. The suggested plays-off between the team finishing bottom and the Championship winners is a bit of a sop too. If the team winning the championship has the necessary facilities and finances (and the desire) to support a Premiership side then it should be promoted - if it doesn't have them it stays where it is. At least a team being promoted would have more notice and time to recruit.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Saint For Life (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 17:31

Pointless discussion re top team - changed many years ago and no indication it will change back .Other than a home semi it is meaningless wether you finish first or second .Most supporters would not remember / care - unless it was their own team - who finished in 1st position in any given year.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 18:48

Quote:
Arthur
Hi Exeter supporter here reading your notice board before the semi. May the best team win.
On the subject in question of play-offs being motivated by premiership games being played during Internationals, I do think this 'truth' is easily quoted but does it stand up to real examination? The two teams that have provided the most players to International sides this season are Exeter and Saracans. It would appear therefore, that no help is required to compensate them for loosing so many players as their squads have still be able to gather points to finish in the top four in the league.
I have never liked the play-offs and suspect that the real reason they exist is as a money-spinner. Perhaps an alternative solution could be for the semi final matches to start with the team that finishes higher in the league being given a 'starting score' equivalent to the number of points they finished ahead of their opponents in the league. That at least would give some credit to the season long performance of the sides and make finishing as high up the table as possible a real benefit. We finished 30 points ahead of you but will get absolutely no credit for that and we are very aware that you are good enough, especially in a one-off match to win.
It is what it is and everyone knows the rules when they start the season, so no sour grapes from me. But, there must be a better way.

Finishing top is all about who is the best over the whole season. When we finished top we tapered of in the last few games and did not play well in the semi. Sarries beat us by 5 and we finished 8 points ahead in the table, if we had started the extra points we could have won. But we did not deserve it as we were poor at the end of the season (it was the beginning of our decline.)

I think the way it is tests your ability to peak at the right time, this means you have to have good squad rotation which benefits players, it also tests your ability to win in knockout Rugby which the regular season does not. IMHO.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: LeicesterSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 18:57

It isn't about the number of players lost - how big a difference does Wilson for example make at Newcastle?

Everything is about money these days but if it were about keeping the leagues competitive etc then I would keep relegation and promotion but perhaps not every year. That allows for an 'off' year like Newcastle have had but also allows for change if you have a team that just isn't competitive in the prem and a team more likely to challenge coming up. Of course that would have meant Saints and Quins not bouncing straight back up of course....

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 21:16

Quote:
Neil-H
Just reading the email I get with Geechs Weekly Column.
He says the reason for the Plays Offs are due to clubs losing there players during the international window, so why don't they have a Play Off for relegation???

Actually I think its a very good point? and some may say, but the bottom clubs don't have many internationals if any?... but what about the clubs they were playing against during the internationals, they could be much weaker and if you want to face them, best to face during international window? So teams may have gained that 1-2 extra win in these periods?

I know there is lots of rugby being played, but I tend to agree with him.... if its right and fair for the top, why not the same for the bottom?


the whole reasons for the playoffs is so clubs are encouraged to bring on English internationals and not be punished for it ......


sorry whatís the new formula here?

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Corkst (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2019 22:30

The play offs are nothing to do with compensating for international windows, they are simply a means to create big games and the physical and virtual audiences that these bring at the end of the season and conversely to reduce the number of dead rubbers with the reverse effect on audiences (money).

You could have a few alternatives at the bottom end - one could be that the usual top/bottom promotion/relegation thing happens and also the second placed club in the championship plays off against the one from bottom in the prem for the chance of a second club to go up. Know there are several arguments against this but once the Pandora's box was opened with play offs at the top of the prem as far as I'm concerned anything' super for discussion.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Ady32 (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2019 07:46

I may have mid-rembered, but as I recall the playoffs were introduced in a World Cup year when the England team consisted of about 10 tigers players who were not available at all in the season until November time. That was before the money spinning autumn internationals.

So I donít think they were introduced as a money spinner, but of course thatís what they have become. Bring it on I say!!!!

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: SaintGuy (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2019 07:54

Quote:
Ady32
I may have mid-rembered, but as I recall the playoffs were introduced in a World Cup year when the England team consisted of about 10 tigers players

Started in 2002-2003 season so close. I think it was to stop the boredom of seeing Tigers win it consistently (won 4 years in a row prior to that 2002-2003 season). But also...money

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Neil-H (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2019 09:14

Ady you are correct, the Plays Off weíre introduced because of clubs losing players through the international window.

Ofc thatís the official reason, cynics could say they are money spinners and I am sure that also was part of the reason, but wasnít how it was sold to the public!

And to confirm, I am talking about the bottom of the league and not between bottom and championship top place, which Ofc use to happen, because if it has an impact at the top, surely it has an impact on the bottom?

Personally Iam not a fan of the playoffs, but can see Geechs opinion

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2019 09:24

ďthey are nothing to do with internationalsĒ


despite potentially losing your best British/Irish players for 30% of the matches in a league table points competition and that being the reason given at the time...?


Mick Cleary 21st May 2019 ďIt took quite a while to come round to the very notion of a play-off system in the first place, brought in for the 2002-03 season as a means of off-setting the disruption caused to clubs having players away on international duty for chunks of the league campaign. A Twickenham final also gave the sponsor a day in the sun, a high-profile denouement to nine months of slog.Ē

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Toulousian Firefighter (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2019 12:31

Everyone knows what theyíre playing for at the start of the season and itís been like this for quite a while. If it makes money, is that so bad? As long as the money gets distributed for the good of the game...

If youíre top of the league by the end of the season then well done. But if you then canít beat the 4th placed team, with home advantage, then your squad maybe isnít the best of the 12. Likewise, winning in the final.

If I was in a squad, the feeling of winning the competition at twickenham, even with the crowd going for beers every 5 mins, to take the spoils over everyone else, would drive me.

Regarding an 11-12th place play off, not sure that works the same way. If youíre last then thatís that. Your squad wasnít up to it over the course of the season. Losing internationals probably isnít a factor, even though wilson has carried Newcastle at times.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Matthew (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2019 19:36

Quote:
Arthur
Perhaps an alternative solution could be for the semi final matches to start with the team that finishes higher in the league being given a 'starting score' equivalent to the number of points they finished ahead of their opponents in the league. That at least would give some credit to the season long performance of the sides and make finishing as high up the table as possible a real benefit. We finished 30 points ahead of you but will get absolutely no credit for that and we are very aware that you are good enough, especially in a one-off match to win.

If we were to head down that route then perhaps we'd also need to ensure that the SFs were played a neutral venues, otherwise with home advantage too the reward would be too much?

Quote:
Toulousian Firefighter
Regarding an 11-12th place play off, not sure that works the same way. If youíre last then thatís that. Your squad wasnít up to it over the course of the season. Losing internationals probably isnít a factor, even though wilson has carried Newcastle at times.

It's not just your own squad - it's who you play against as well. I think an 11/12 playoff would not be at all unreasonable.



ACTUAL TRAINING FOOTAGE FROM
BEHIND THE SCENES AT SARACENS:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37800000/Scrooge-McDuck-gif-mickey-and-friends-37815657-245-188.gif

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: porkpie (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2019 08:18

I think many are missing the point about playoffs, as it stands Exeter are top of the table and as such are the winners. But hand on heart do you think that Saracens would be in second place if they had not lost players to Internationals, Take into account missed games injuries and rested games, I personally do not even think the play offs reflect a fair assessment as those England player must now be needing rest after a long hard season.
As for playoffs to ascertain who goes down where does it stop should Gloucester, Saints, Sale Quins and Wasps have played of to determine the top 4 place as all have had different numbers of players away on Internationals which will have effected their playing ability during the Season.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Stopsy (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2019 13:13

Do you think Exeter would have lost to Bristol had they been worried about finishing top?
All about money, play off money is split evenly between the12 clubs. Why wouldnít the majority vote for that even with little hence to participate?
I have no problem with a money spinner end of season comp but the best team has to be the one that finishes top of the pile after playing every other team home and away.

Re: Interesting Opinion from Geech?
Posted by: Saint Medard (IP Logged)
Date: 27 May, 2019 18:16

It could be more complicated! The French have "barrages" between teams 3-6; the winners play teams 1 and 2 (Toulouse and Clermont) at a neutral venue (this year, both games at Bordeaux). Then a final at Stade de France. Meanwhile, the ProD2 has similar, but the winner of the final (Bayonne) is promoted (replacing Perpignan). The runner-up (Brive, who had finished the season at the top) has home advantage in a play-off with Top14 no.13 (Grenoble).

All to do with money of course - but who wouldn't want to see Lyon v Montpellier battle it out for that semi-final spot? Or Racing v La Rochelle for that matter?

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