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Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: shiversaint (IP Logged)
Date: 23 October, 2019 15:23

Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Exactly Statesman

This is a premier rugby salary cap matter, nothing to do with HMRC or any other legal matter.


Unless some on here are suggesting tax evasion or money laundering?

I suggested tax efficiency. Your two phrases are something else entirely.

I guarantee you whatever arrangement has been done has also been executed with minimisation of tax in mind. It would be madness to go to all this effort without thinking about that.

Which totally justifies the expectation that the players a) have a knowledge of how they are being paid and b) are accountable to it.

Quote:
tedge
The implication of that is that the player should not take his employers at face value, even though they had not at the time been found guilty of nefarious goings on, and say "Thanks for the offer but you might be breaking the rules so I can't accept the terms and I'll leave or not join you to begin with" ?

You'd be insane to get involved with something like this on face value. That's an insult to the players to think they're that naive.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: BlackheathSaracen (IP Logged)
Date: 23 October, 2019 17:27

Quote:
shendy
I did wonder whether there had been enough time for the flipping, as presumably you can't change mid-season and it would all have taken a few years. But that also removes one possible mitigation.
As for the comment about who has and hasn't been marquee - how do you know? I though the "internal" marquees were never named?

Hi Shendy that's a good point. For clarification, re Mako and Wriggle I am talking about them not being Marquee players since 2017 (the last two seasons) I don't know about before that.

As for the last two years I'd suggest the vast majority of supporters could tell you who our EQP Marquees have been the last two seasons. If naming them is something that's not done that's fair enough.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 23 October, 2019 18:52

Quote:
tedge
Whatever the outcome I hope none of the players is blamed in any way.

Not sure about this.... They will know their worth and if they don't get in on salary per year, they will know and theyll aldo know of deferred schemes etc to bolster payments. Any agent or accountant... which they will all likely have will know too.

Of course, it rather depends on the payment vehicles but i dont think they could be completely oblivious.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 23 October, 2019 19:05

Quote:
Statesman
This has become an in depth discussion of a 2nd or 3rd order issue. The only issue of any importance is whether Saracens have broken the SC and if so what punishment they will receive. The players have no obligations under the SC save whistle blowing if they believe anything untoward is happening - they will simply say that they believed everything was above board. The players really are not the issue here. The responsibility to comply with the SC rests with the club.

true the club will carry the can but players may also be complicit.
Whether there is sanction there is another thing.
i think they would have broken no law unless the taxman gets interested but they might still havd been party to a deception of cap rules.
I think the rfu will have tried to limit the damage to England players but at the expense of the club...which be the right way round.

Dont forget how many Saracens players are still in the RWC...
Any other club in the world have more..?

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: Statesman (IP Logged)
Date: 23 October, 2019 19:28

The players have done nothing wrong. They have signed up to quite legitimate investment schemes.

The only reason the schemes are being questioned is the existence of the SCRís which is something the clubs have signed up to not the players.

Yes the players have a whistleblowing responsibility but why would they when the Wray narrative around the schemes is so compelling?

Our entire focus should be on the club and itís actions. When they have been found guilty and punished proportionately perhaps then we can think about the part played by the players?

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 23 October, 2019 19:51

The players will know market value. Most top fly halves, for example, will know what Biggar is broadly on....and value themselves above or below.
Ditto, Locks, wings, FB etc etc.

They will want to know why they arent getting that sort of rate so i dont buy they dont know or should take things at face value when they are likely to be signing thd most important contract of their career.
I agree taking a high offer isnt against any law but if it breaks the cap, they are complicit.

They would also know the terms of an 'investment' and what it would cost or earn them.
For the most part, the ones with investments arent straight out of the academy on their first good deal...??

Proving that may not be easy and they might not be the main target
or focus...but innocent i very much doubt they are in terms of not
knowing what was going on.
Why don't other clubs have 20 plus internationals on their books...?

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: shiversaint (IP Logged)
Date: 23 October, 2019 19:58

Quote:
Statesman
The players have done nothing wrong.

That's an opinion.

Quote:
They have signed up to quite legitimate investment schemes.

Unless you were privy to the enactment of their pay structure then you cannot possibly comment on the legitimacy of it.

Quote:
The only reason the schemes are being questioned is the existence of the SCRís which is something the clubs have signed up to not the players.

Does willful, knowing behaviour that enables the club to subvert the cap not deserve sanction?

Quote:
Yes the players have a whistleblowing responsibility but why would they when the Wray narrative around the schemes is so compelling?

More speculation. You have no idea what Wray may or may not have said to the players. Even if true, if they have a whistleblowing responsibility but were knowingly persuaded by Wray, then they are obviously complicit.

Quote:
Our entire focus should be on the club and itís actions. When they have been found guilty and punished proportionately perhaps then we can think about the part played by the players?

Again, if the club needed the players to go along with being paid unconventionally to specifically avert the salary cap, then the players are directly responsible given they agreed to do so.

I find it mind boggling that so many of you think the players are so innocent given they had to agree to, sign documents, incorporate companies and more to execute this scheme. Without that behaviour or at least offering some resistance to the act, it's possible that this whole saga may never have happened!

There are people that have gone to prison for turning a blind eye to what their employer gets up to, let alone benefitting from their actions. Granted it's not looking like any of this is against the law in a criminal sense but contravening prem rules is a big deal for the game.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: tedge (IP Logged)
Date: 23 October, 2019 20:20

When I am defending the players I am suggesting that they had, when they signed their contracts no reason to assume that how the club was operating was in any way contrary to regulations and up to this point they might still believe that. I doubt any of the players has been subject to whatever lines of enquiry have taken place. None of us yet knows whether or not Saracens were in breach of the rules and although some may have suspected they were and have been for a number of years, there has been no published credible evidence other than accusing articles in a pretty scurrilous rag. They might turn out to be accurate and justified but just because a player was "fortunate" enough to be employed by one of the country's most successful teams and offered the generous terms they might expect from such a club, does not, in my personal opinion make those players complicit in any way.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: Statesman (IP Logged)
Date: 23 October, 2019 20:23

This is surreal! Iíve spent the last 6 months prosecuting the Sarries case - I now find myself defending it! The responsibility rests with Wray and the club - the players are the wrong target. At worst they are morally complicit - but itís very easy to underestimate how powerful the Wray narrative can be - maybe the players really did believe it? After all there are several thousand supporters who still do believe it!

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: shiversaint (IP Logged)
Date: 24 October, 2019 16:27

Quote:
tedge
When I am defending the players I am suggesting that they had, when they signed their contracts no reason to assume that how the club was operating was in any way contrary to regulations and up to this point they might still believe that.

Fair enough. That's where we differ as I don't believe a player wouldn't ask "why are we doing it this way as opposed to the way everyone else does it?". I say this on the assumption that the supposed Wray sponsored investments are unique to the Saracens financial structure.

Quote:
Statesman
This is surreal! Iíve spent the last 6 months prosecuting the Sarries case - I now find myself defending it! The responsibility rests with Wray and the club - the players are the wrong target. At worst they are morally complicit - but itís very easy to underestimate how powerful the Wray narrative can be - maybe the players really did believe it? After all there are several thousand supporters who still do believe it!

I fully take your point and I agree that the heads that roll should be the ones who orchestrated this. Fact is, if you're creating companies and signing off accounts etc - that gives you certain legal obligations. The players may not understand it (and this point is the one that I really, really doubt), and lord knows many company directors don't have a clue what they're actually into, but at that level they can't dodge the responsibility that comes with doing that sort of thing as it's enshrined in law.

Believe me, I am one of the most fervent supporters of Saracens being held accountable for their actions as I am convinced that the impact on the premiership as a whole is a negative one, and in particular, it hurts grass roots growth at smaller clubs like Newcastle.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: BlackheathSaracen (IP Logged)
Date: 24 October, 2019 20:08

Quote:
shiversaint
I am one of the most fervent supporters of Saracens being held accountable for their actions as I am convinced that the impact on the premiership as a whole is a negative one, and in particular, it hurts grass roots growth at smaller clubs like Newcastle.

That's an interesting observation shiversaint. How would Saracens actions hurt grass roots growth?

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 24 October, 2019 20:24

Quote:
BlackheathSaracen
Quote:
shiversaint
I am one of the most fervent supporters of Saracens being held accountable for their actions as I am convinced that the impact on the premiership as a whole is a negative one, and in particular, it hurts grass roots growth at smaller clubs like Newcastle.

That's an interesting observation shiversaint. How would Saracens actions hurt grass roots growth?

What family would want their kids involved in a bent sport.
Therefore, they'd encourage their children to pick another.
That, to me, is grass roots.

What is at stake here is the very integrity of the game...imv.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
Date: 25 October, 2019 08:49

I still don't understand how we can blame the players. If my boss came up to me, offered me a new deal that would mean I would get paid the same or more, buy pay less tax, i'd bite their hand off on the assumption that my boss was acting within the guidelines imposed by their bosses.

If we are going to blame the players, are we not expecting them to essentially be accountants or Salary Cap managers!

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: shendy (IP Logged)
Date: 25 October, 2019 09:17

Quote:
Saint Stokey
I still don't understand how we can blame the players. If my boss came up to me, offered me a new deal that would mean I would get paid the same or more, buy pay less tax, i'd bite their hand off on the assumption that my boss was acting within the guidelines imposed by their bosses.
If we are going to blame the players, are we not expecting them to essentially be accountants or Salary Cap managers!

I'd be suspicious of something that promised to pay me more but with less tax. Anyone sensible would take advice on that - hopefully independent advice - being mindful of some high-profile cases like Jimmy Carr.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 25 October, 2019 12:38

Quote:
Saint Stokey
I still don't understand how we can blame the players. If my boss came up to me, offered me a new deal that would mean I would get paid the same or more, buy pay less tax, i'd bite their hand off on the assumption that my boss was acting within the guidelines imposed by their bosses.
If we are going to blame the players, are we not expecting them to essentially be accountants or Salary Cap managers!

I'd be interested but then there wouldnt be a cap to adhere to so you just want to know it was legal.

20 plus internationals excluding marquee...you'd be thinking 300 p.a on average..?

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: Saint Ted (IP Logged)
Date: 25 October, 2019 13:34

I still don't understand what tax has got to do with any of this? it's a completely different issue to the salary cap.

Is it in the interest of the players to look at what tax they are paying. Absolutely, just ask Brian Mujati about that one.

Is it up to the players to to check the way they are being paid fits into the salary cap. Absolutely not. That is down to the salary cap manager, it's the club that gets punished, not the player.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 25 October, 2019 13:41

Quote:
Saint Ted
I still don't understand what tax has got to do with any of this? it's a completely different issue to the salary cap.
Is it in the interest of the players to look at what tax they are paying. Absolutely, just ask Brian Mujati about that one.

Is it up to the players to to check the way they are being paid fits into the salary cap. Absolutely not. That is down to the salary cap manager, it's the club that gets punished, not the player.

Ted - the point regarding the tax man is that it effectively defines income. From a specific source. If there is any question over the source, the destination, or in fact if it is remuneration at all, the tax man would be able to tell us.

It is not up to the players to see if the club are paying within the salary cap. Agreed. But the players need to be aware that there is mischief afoot, hence the round-about way they're to be paid, and so to that end, they are complicit.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: Saint Ted (IP Logged)
Date: 25 October, 2019 14:58

But the mischief that is afoot is more about how they are being paid in relation to the salary cap not to what they pay tax on.

Provided the players are meeting the tax mans requirements, it isn't an issue, there is nothing to suggest anything about how they are being paid is illegal, it's about how if these payments should be taken from the salary cap, which is nothing to do with the player

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 25 October, 2019 15:39

Quote:
Saint Ted
But the mischief that is afoot is more about how they are being paid in relation to the salary cap not to what they pay tax on.
Provided the players are meeting the tax mans requirements, it isn't an issue, there is nothing to suggest anything about how they are being paid is illegal, it's about how if these payments should be taken from the salary cap, which is nothing to do with the player

Agreed.

Re: Salary Cap Announcement Delayed until After World Cup
Posted by: shiversaint (IP Logged)
Date: 25 October, 2019 17:48

Quote:
BlackheathSaracen
That's an interesting observation shiversaint. How would Saracens actions hurt grass roots growth?

By bending the salary cap, the presumed goal is a deeper squad that is therefore more competitive/harder to beat, agreed? The cap also primarily exists to "level the field" somewhat, and prevent merely deep pockets from owning the competition.

Clubs that do not have the same levels of financing are forced to play against a squad that they cannot reasonably compete with in a scenario where the cap rules are broken. In Newcastle's case, a club with a strong academy that they rely on to survive, the result is as severe as relegation. We know the impact that relegation has on a club's finances, which results in less investment in the background and the knock on effect is their work in the community will be less financed and less present, and then their academy will have less prospects.

It's a chain of events for sure, and I don't know for certain that it happens, but it feels mightily unfair in a league that has relegation and therefore severe financial impact, that another club can break the rules. It seems reasonable to conclude that the price other clubs have to pay in terms of not being competitive will have a knock on effect in their grassroots work.

The tightness of the table between 6-11 last year demonstrates this hurdle that sarries are already behind but other clubs struggle to get over. Exeter is a wild card I think, but I foresee their strength being nullified this year without dramatic changes to their game plan.

Quote:
Saint Stokey
I still don't understand how we can blame the players. If my boss came up to me, offered me a new deal that would mean I would get paid the same or more, buy pay less tax, i'd bite their hand off on the assumption that my boss was acting within the guidelines imposed by their bosses.

I guess this is where I differ compared to some of the other opinions here. If this happened to me, and I had to incorporate companies as a result etc, I'd at least want to understand what I'm getting into, and more importantly why. I just don't believe a player wouldn't have even considered that this has cap implications.

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