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Re: England
Posted by: Awaywin (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 13:40

The only logic I can gleam is that Billy V will be England number 8 when fit therefore by playing Curry and others who will be in the squad and can cover 8 he is making sure they are ready if they have to deputise when Billy goes off or is injured in future games/tournaments. It is a bit of short term hardship for long term gain.

Re: England
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 13:50

Quote:
ajack
Clearly if everything else is equal size is an advantage and weights are hard to judge how accurate they actually are.
Having said that Curry is 2kg lighter than Kieran Read, who I would say has pretty much been the best 8 in the world for a while and just to see how things change he is 2 kg heavier than Buck who many would rate as one of the best 8's of all time.

Pat Lam who was a pretty impressive 8 when he lead us to the European cup was 14kg lighter. Billy V comes in at a huge 21kg more.



Comparing weights between different generations doesnít really work, Lomu was a giant but now would be normal sized winger. Everyone is bigger.

Read 3 inches taller and was a rangy runner with offloads, menace in the line out etc

Re: England
Posted by: Walks11 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 14:12

Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Quote:
ajack
Clearly if everything else is equal size is an advantage and weights are hard to judge how accurate they actually are.
Having said that Curry is 2kg lighter than Kieran Read, who I would say has pretty much been the best 8 in the world for a while and just to see how things change he is 2 kg heavier than Buck who many would rate as one of the best 8's of all time.

Pat Lam who was a pretty impressive 8 when he lead us to the European cup was 14kg lighter. Billy V comes in at a huge 21kg more.



Comparing weights between different generations doesnít really work, Lomu was a giant but now would be normal sized winger. Everyone is bigger.

Read 3 inches taller and was a rangy runner with offloads, menace in the line out etc

The point is does it matter if itís 6,7 or 8. As I said in my post how many scrums do you really need expertise at 8, not too many. You absolutely do need a big ball carrier in the back row and also jacklers, tacklers and the getting on floor dirty types. So as long as your 3 have all those bases covered what does it matter which is which. Iím not suggesting this is right or wrong but trying to tap into Jones thought process.

Re: England
Posted by: Brackleysaint (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 14:22

Deliberate ploy by EJ, play some key personnel out of position, take them out of their comfort zone in a high pressure environment, so in the future, if injury occurs in a World Cup game and a player is forced to fill in they are better prepared and not alien to the task.To EJ the Six Nations is not that critical, it's all about the next World Cup.

Re: England
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 14:31

Quote:
Walks11
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Quote:
ajack
Clearly if everything else is equal size is an advantage and weights are hard to judge how accurate they actually are.
Having said that Curry is 2kg lighter than Kieran Read, who I would say has pretty much been the best 8 in the world for a while and just to see how things change he is 2 kg heavier than Buck who many would rate as one of the best 8's of all time.

Pat Lam who was a pretty impressive 8 when he lead us to the European cup was 14kg lighter. Billy V comes in at a huge 21kg more.



Comparing weights between different generations doesnít really work, Lomu was a giant but now would be normal sized winger. Everyone is bigger.

Read 3 inches taller and was a rangy runner with offloads, menace in the line out etc

The point is does it matter if itís 6,7 or 8. As I said in my post how many scrums do you really need expertise at 8, not too many. You absolutely do need a big ball carrier in the back row and also jacklers, tacklers and the getting on floor dirty types. So as long as your 3 have all those bases covered what does it matter which is which. Iím not suggesting this is right or wrong but trying to tap into Jones thought process.


Well you need one on every single of your own put-ins to control the ball etc.... see France vs England. I also like the ball carrying 8 picking up from the base to get over the gain line, and also to keep their flankers honest. If your 8 can't carry from the base of the scrum, the oppo 9 and flankers can focus on getting across to cover in the backs

Re: England
Posted by: Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 15:43

It took him some time but Harrison has a lot of the skills needed by an 8 without being massive. So Saints miss out on the work traditional 8 will do but we gain in other areas of the pitch. But you do need those runners elsewhere, so if you have a slightly smaller, nimbler Hooker who takes on some of that work, a massive Centre who can punch holes, there are many ways to skin the cat.

However, you still need to do the basics so i expect that to be a work on for whoever EJ has asked to fill in.

Re: England
Posted by: Walks11 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 16:08

The majority need little control. It only becomes an issue if scrum is under pressure or you are galloping towards the line which is a rare occurrence as scrums collapse before that happens. Keeping the 9 honest doesnít need a big carrier it just needs them to carry so they donít do what you are suggesting. As I said in my OP itís risk and reward, you could pick Hughes and he be brilliant at a few scrum picks ups but then goes MIA for 50 minutes. Jones obviously does not think we have another Billy so is looking for advantages elsewhere

Re: England
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 16:52

So why did he play Ludlam at 6 and Curry at 8 when Ludlam played England grade age at 8?

Re: England
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 25 February, 2020 07:33

Quote:
Wilson Pickett
So why did he play Ludlam at 6 and Curry at 8 when Ludlam played England grade age at 8?

Only a mind reader or EJ would be able to answer that.

My guess would be he wants different things to whoever was coaching England age grade at the time. The two of them have developed differently over time due to the training and fitness at the clubs they play for. He has all the stats available to him on both players and knows their strengths and weaknesses better than anyone on here so picks what he thinks is best for the game he wants England to play.

Re: England
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 25 February, 2020 07:53

Well of course. Iím trying to speculate on the logic. I canít see it on this one.

Re: England
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 25 February, 2020 08:55

Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Well of course. Iím trying to speculate on the logic. I canít see it on this one.

I appreciate that, I did give some possible reasons why it might be the case.

It might be better to ask why Boyd picks Harrison over Ludlum at 8 for the same reason as I would imagine it is more likely someone on here has contact with Boyd than with Jones. I personally don't so can only speculate like most other people.

Re: England
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 25 February, 2020 09:16

Let me work on that

Re: England
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 25 February, 2020 13:03

Interesting comments from Irish rugby fan friend of mine. Gives some perspective:-

ďMen v boys on Sunday, Ireland are one dimensional and Eddie got the predictable game plan right; England were excellent - and if it wasnít for rusty first half v France would be shoo in for grand slam.ď

Re: England
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 26 February, 2020 14:50

Quote:
Wilson Pickett
Interesting comments from Irish rugby fan friend of mine. Gives some perspective:-
ďMen v boys on Sunday, Ireland are one dimensional and Eddie got the predictable game plan right; England were excellent - and if it wasnít for rusty first half v France would be shoo in for grand slam.ď

But that perspective neatly sums up England year after year.

Should have........but didn't.

And it's nothing new.

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