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Re: News and Stuff!
Posted by: IanSmithISA
Date: 02/07/2020 13:23
Good morning,

Thank you for your response, you clearly spent a significant amount of time on it.

The post that you replied to was a response to one
Ecclestone, 89, told CNN that "in lots of cases, black people are more racist than what white people are".
This OK to say Ian??


Where I was asking why what Bernie said was wrong as I genuinely don’t understand why others thought that it was wrong and the body of response were the possible reasons that I thought that others may have had for thinking it was wrong.

I saw three possible cases, Bernie either believed or didn’t believe what he said and what he said was either correct or incorrect. I had hoped that those on the Bernie was wrong side would say that it is reason n because………

Whilst your arguments were in many places quite eloquent they were actually answers to a different question.

Unfortunately you also weakened your case by the personal insults and the refusal to accept that any viewpoint other than yours is valid.

You also appeared to have difficulty with the acceptance of social grouping when it didn’t suit your case yet were very will to embrace it when it became essential to a meaningful concept of racism.

I was very disappointed by the bit that I have highlighted in red where you took a sentence and reversed its meaning by removing the words before EVERYTHING.

Possible Reason Why The Statement Was Unacceptable
1) Bernie does believe it but it isn't true, okay he is wrong and there is an opportunity for education but why shouldn't he say it?

That it's wrong is not a good enough reason to not say it?! What is then? Seriously, your question makes no sense at all. Besides, couldn't one regard the condemnation he is receiving from the likes of Lewis Hamilton as something of the education you are calling for? So then what are you even arguing for?

That it's wrong is not a good enough reason to not say it?
If the person saying it believes it to be true then no it is not wrong to say it, a huge portion of any political debate is people saying things that they believe to be true.

What is then?
Saying something that you believe to be untrue.

Seriously, your question makes no sense at all.
The proposition that someone is free to say what they believe to be true is a generally a pretty basic freedom.

Besides, couldn't one regard the condemnation he is receiving from the likes of Lewis Hamilton as something of the education you are calling for?
I am not calling for anything, remember this was one of the possible reasons for the specific statement by Bernie being wrong so it was a postulate that he was wrong.

So if you accept the postulate then it is good that he said it and the view is shown to be flawed.

So then what are you even arguing for?
I am not arguing for anything, there had been posts that a certain statement was obviously unacceptable and no willingness to explain why it was obvious, this was suggested as one possible answer.

Possible Reason Why The Statement Was Unacceptable
2) Bernie does believe it and it is true, the elephant in the room. This idea isn't "allowed" to be even mentioned because it undermines the narrative that EVERYTHING that happens to a group isn't in anyway a consequence of their own actions. [i]

[i] This simply shows that you have no understanding of what racism--of the kind that is being widely protested around the world right now--even is.

No, what it shows is that I asked a question as to why a statement was relevant to that debate.

If you have the bankrupt (and I should note, very convenient) idea that it is merely a matter of private opinion regarding people of other races, and has nothing to do with structures of power and how they shape the lives of all of us, then I suppose it is thinkable that black people could hold such opinions in higher proportion than people of other races. That is NOT what racism is, however, or at least that is FAR from all that it is.
What you have done here is to take an issue, allocate a statement that is not about that issue and then said that statement must be bad because the issue is bad.

It is also only intellectual laziness, or plain disingenuousness, that would allow you to suggest that any recognition of the fact that there are large forces at work on all of us (the operation of institutions, for instance) that have a lot to do with the course of our lives requires that one also believe that "EVERYTHING that happens to a group isn't in anyway a consequence of their own actions.".
It is particularly sad that to create your case you have deliberately extracted part of the sentence

This idea isn't "allowed" to be even mentioned because it undermines the narrative that EVERYTHING that happens to a group isn't in anyway a consequence of their own actions.

and reversed its meaning by removing the words before EVERYTHING.

You have kept the the sentence after EVERYTHING and even left the upper case in place to suggest that the sentence didn't say that some things that happen are within a groups control and some are not but used it suggest that I wrote that everything is the responsibility of that group.

The claim is complete nonsense in any case. I would be remiss point out, however, that it is very typical for racists to think in terms of assigning fault to groups (i.e. whole races) for their actions. Do you seriously think Black people around the world (or White people, for that matter) "act" deliberately as a group? How do they coordinate such complex action? By what mechanisms? Is there no dissent among those billions? Am I then the only one being left out of these group deliberations? No is one is asking me, after all, what actions my race should take.
A lovely use of sarcasm unfortunately it has nothing do with the question of why was the one statement under discussion unacceptable.

No wonder you are defending Bernie here. It seems that you rather think like him.
This is where things start to go wrong for you as this is just an implied insult.

Possible Reason Why The Statement Was Unacceptable
A3) Bernie doesn't believe it and it is a publicity stunt, okay then its bad.
So then he shouldn't have said it? So you agree that one should not say some "bad" things?
Yes.

Isn't the idea that Bernie, in all honesty, denied that he, as dictator of F1--a global operation--for decades, failed to take any action at all to counter how that operation participated in institutional racism, then denied that there was even a problem to address, and then blamed the victims of that non-existing problem for it anyway, more "bad" than the idea that he made these claims merely as part of a disingenuous publicity stunt?
Again this doesn’t address the question of why was the statement under discussion wrong, you are now starting to adopt the argument that Bernie is bad so anything he says is bad.

Who is accusing him of the latter anyway? This seems like another deliberate red herring.
Again you are forgetting that I am proposing possible answers as to why the statement is bad and as Bernie is famous for remarks such as White Goods and Women it would be reasonable to suggest that this wasn’t meant as a serious comment.

Possible Reason Why The Statement Was Unacceptable
4) Or another reason?
Why are you so sure that he is wrong, do you believe that all groups of people are equally racist or that some group are better than others and are less racist?
But isn't this the idea that you don't like, surely if you believe that one group of people is better than another then.....

Here we go again with the "groups" nonsense.
I am confused here as racism as discussed in general and recognised in your earlier argument is inherently one or more groups acting differently to one or more other groups.

If you reject grouping you must reject racism.

The statement under discussion was black people are more racist than what white people to which there are only four possible answers.

The question is unanswerable, they are more, they are less or they are the same.

As I understand your arguments your answer would be that the question is unanswerable because the question is meaningless as the notion of a black group and a white group is nonsense.

As you mockingly suggested earlier indeed there is not a structure where my “groups” get together in the same way as there was never a formal structure for the old grouping of Working Class, Middle Class and Upper class yet these groups did functionally exist and they did have mostly one or two attitudes to most issues.

Seriously Ian. Both you and Bernie Ecclestone need to educate yourselves. If you don't think that developing a more nuanced and responsible understanding of matters of global justice are worthy of such an effort, then you might at least keep your uninformed views to yourself. They aren't worth broadcasting and only contribute to the problem (assuming that was not your actual purpose here).
It's hard to respond to this because it is basically just you don’t agree and you have the correct views.

Bye

Ian

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