EDINBURGH PREVIEW2 - post all match related comments here
By The Saracens
January 18 2023
So it all comes down to this, the last game of the final round of the pool stages of the European Champions Cup. Sarries are through to the next round but as yet a home tie is not guaranteed. They sit in 3rd behind Leinster (who appear uncatchable with an extra point -15- and a points difference of 124) followed by Cell C Sharks on 14 and a points difference of 40 then Sarries with 14 and a points difference of 32. Exeter are 4th with only 11 points but a better points difference (34). Could those 4 tries sloppily conceded on Saturday prove costly? It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Sarries, Exeter and Edinburgh all end up on 16 points!
One good thing to have come out of Round 3 is that Edinburgh have qualified by right. They will of course want a home tie in the next round too but some of the pressure should be off. I have been critical of the format of the competition but it does mean that even in the final round, most teams still have something to play for. Cell C Sharks have to travel to The Stoop next Saturday with Quins also looking for qualification so a victory for the South Africans will need to be hard won. Exeter are home to Castres (who have no points but could still get themselves into the Challenge Cup) and Leinster home to Racing 92 (who are currently hanging on to the last Champions Cup place). By the time Sarries and Edinburgh take the field at the DAM Health Stadium on Sunday evening, both sides will know exactly what they need to do.
Edinburgh will put up a fight, one helluva fight one imagines. Despite 2 yellow cards, they gave Saracens quite a fright in the reverse fixture. 5 tries from Sarries were only just enough: Edinburgh were much better at the breakdown and got the better of an inexperienced referee so the man in the middle could be all important. On Sunday it was to be Matthieu Raynal (who is most definitely not inexperienced) however he picked up an injury in South Africa during the Bulls/Exeter game and has been replaced by fellow Frenchman Ludovic Cayre. Monsieur Cayre does not appear to be a withering violet and both sides need to be on their best behaviour as he issued 2 red cards to London Irish in the previous round plus 2 yellow cards and 2 penalty tries in the match! He also took charge of Ospreys/Tigers in R1 (a somewhat calmer affair with just 1 yellow card).
Edinburgh dug in for a good win at Castres on Sunday. After a pretty even first half, Edinburgh took control in the 2nd half scoring 17 unanswered points. Yes Edinburgh were a lot fitter but there were very few unforced errors and they made excellent use of possession. As Sarries found during the previous encounter, Edinburgh are very fast to the ruck and carry the ball to great effect. So basically if Sarries switch off on Sunday as they did last Saturday, be sure Edinburgh will take full advantage!
Edinburgh were without Emiliano Boffelli last weekend – he was hugely influential when the teams last met. He was a late withdrawal along with Luan de Bruin, Boan Venter and Paddy Harrison. Whether they will be available this week remains to be seen. Edinburgh will definitely be without Darcy Graham and Duhan van der Merwe though. Cameron Hutchinson, Henry Immelman Sam Skinner, Ben Vellacott and Villiame Mata all had big games last weekend.
Sarries missed Farrell against Lyon, not as a Fly half – Alex Goode did a superb job – but just his dynamic presence. Faz would not have tolerated that sloppiness which crept into the 2nd half. They will need to consume a lot of iron nails this week to try and get that steeliness back because once again Faz is forced to sit this one out. I fear Maro will also be absent, having limped off with a dodgy looking ankle. That potentially leaves pretty limited cover at lock and in the back row. Hopefully Daly’s arm, which he was holding after scoring that 3rd try, is just a bruise because in the form he’s in, he’s the first name on the team sheet. I’d also consider starting Segun, if he’s fit, to add a bit more pace on the wing.
So it appears the fates have conspired to deprive Sarries of potentially their 3 best players for possibly the biggest game of the season so far: Theo out for the season, Faz on the naughty step, and probably Itoje as well. The rest of the lads will need to step up big time, they’ve done it before, they can do it again! A simple win will do. 2 points will probably be enough. Right now the likely opponents are Munster or Ospreys but of course much can change!
I think Sarries will field a team something like:- Daly, Malins, Lozowski, Tompkins, Segun, Goode, Van Zyn; M Vunipola, George, Riccioni, Isiekwe, Tizard, Christie, Earl, B Vunipola. Let’s hope they all remember the game is 80 minutes long – and they need to play for each and every one of them!
It looks like being a good night. Edinburgh are most definitely bullish about their chances, and so they should be. There is limited standing room only remaining so it should be a good crowd. Edinburgh are celebrating their 150th anniversary this season. It is also billed as their first ever “Club Legends Night”. Tom Brown (he one of them) will deliver the match ball (have to say it’s a better idea than DHL last week!) and the Merchiston Castle Pipe Band will play before the match and at half time (you’ve been warned, bring your ear plugs). Mr DG and I will be there for a weekend of haggis and scotch in the Scottish Capital. Let’s hope for a win.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:03:18:53:06 by Darraghgirl.
I feel we’ll need that home advantage for the knockout rounds if we are to proceed into the latter stages, so a lot at stake.
I can’t remember the last time we played the graveyard shift, considering our usual Friday night issues I wonder if that will have an effect.
Quote:derbyshire fan
Sarriebone - all the England players, and other internationals, are available for all the European games
Ah yes, my mistake, I'm getting my dates mixed up, my brain was thinking Bristol
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:19:19:57:30 by JimG.
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George (c)
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Maro Itoje
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Andy Christie
7 Ben Earl
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Alex Goode
11 Sean Maitland
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Max Malins
15 Elliot Daly
Replacements:
16 Kapeli Pifeleti
17 Robin Hislop
18 Christian Judge
19 Nick Isiekwe
20 Theo Dan
21 Aled Davies
22 Manu Vunipola
23 Alex Lewington
14. Jack Blain
13. Mark Bennett
12. James Lang
11. Blair Kinghorn
10. Charlie Savala
9. Ben Vellacott
1. Pierre Schoeman
2. Dave Cherry
3. WP Nel
4. Sam Skinner
5. Grant Gilchrist
6. Jamie Ritchie
7. Luke Crosbie
8. Viliame Mata
Replacements
16. Adam McBurney
17. Boan Venter
18. Lee-Roy Atalifo
19. Jamie Hodgson
20. Nick Haining
21. Henry Pyrgos
22. Cammy Hutchison
23. Wes Goosen
A few missing for Edinburgh, especially in the back three. I doubt we’ll get any early scrum pressure like last time and can’t rely on dodgy lineouts so we’ll need to be on top form.
ARs: Pierre-Baptiste Nuchy (FRA) & Jonathan Gasnier (FRA)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (FRA)
Quote:Carlyle
Not sure Raynal and Owen get on!?!
That's not a problem though.
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Ref: Ludovic Cayre (France)
Assis Ref 1: Jonathan Gasnier (France)
Assis Ref 2: David Beun (France)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (France)
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
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Gland to see Daly & Itoje both fit to play - unchanged team from last week although once again the bench looking a little lightweight with the notable exception of Isiekwe.
Hopefully we'll see the Sarries side of the first 40 and not the 2nd!
Quote:Surbiton Sarries
Referee: Mathieu Raynal (FRA)
ARs: Pierre-Baptiste Nuchy (FRA) & Jonathan Gasnier (FRA)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (FRA)
If you read the article all will berevealed but Raynal is injured
I'm not familiar with the Edinburgh players but it sounds a bit like by accident or design they are not at full strength. Mind you they weren't last time either and it was closer than you'd have liked.
Best of luck to the team. Sunday evening is an odd fixture time and sometimes that's unsettled Sarries. Hopefully not an issue this weekend. COYS.
Just a shame that the game is being played at such a rubbish time as some Scottish friends had offered me a ticket but I really couldn’t face the late flight back on a Sunday evening.
We’ve also won at Sale on that shift, no mean achievement either
If we win, 4 or 5 points, we end up 2nd.
If we draw we end up 3rd
If we lose by 6 or fewer points we end up 4th (unless Edinburgh also get a try bonus and we don’t).
Losing by 7 or more we will end up 5th and no home tie.
Quote:Really want that second seed. Makes life so much easier. At 1 point today I thought that first seed was up for grabs. Then Leinster did a LeinsterComeOnSarries
Now that Exeter have got 5 points from their game we know what we need to do,
If we win, 4 or 5 points, we end up 2nd.
If we draw we end up 3rd
If we lose by 6 or fewer points we end up 4th (unless Edinburgh also get a try bonus and we don’t).
Losing by 7 or more we will end up 5th and no home tie.
If we’re 4th likely to have ospreys at home.
And 5th we travel to Leicester.
Is that right?
Quote:Off the bar
So if we come 2nd likely opponent would be Montpellier?
If we’re 4th likely to have ospreys at home.
And 5th we travel to Leicester.
Is that right?
Quite possibly not!
Montpelier (v L Irish), Munster and Toulouse (against each other) are still to play.
So Montpelier might go above Munster.
If we are fourth, we play the fifth team in Pool B which is currently Toulouse, but Toulouse could move above Ospreys, or Munster displace Toulouse.
If we are fifth. we travel to the fourth team in Pool B which is currently Ospreys but either (or both) of Toulouse and Munster could replace them or indeed knock Tigers to fourth.
Any of Montpelier, Munster, Toulouse or Ospreys at the StoneX would be a great match.
We'll know by kick off!
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:22:10:12:10 by AP.
I'm not one of those who is bothered about SA teams taking part but anyone going away to SA probably has as tough a draw as anyone playing against 16 men at one of Leinsters "home" venues.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:22:18:07:57 by maynas.
Quote:Off the bar
So if we come 2nd likely opponent would be Montpellier?
If we’re 4th likely to have ospreys at home.
And 5th we travel to Leicester.
Is that right?
Yes!!!
My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.
I'm begging her for one more try!
Borthwick must be a worried man over who will be England hooker and now Daly off too
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:22:18:49:56 by maynas.
Still don't understand Maro's yellow, looked on the arm to me.
Injuries galore, @#$%& poor discipline, really not good enough.
Suspect bans incoming for George and Riccioni.
Although we deservedly lost the net result is a home game against Ospreys rather than Montpellier and to be honest that is probably a good outcome for Sarries given the gun team Montpellier could put out if they were serious.
One interesting stat is that the 8 teams that didn’t qualify 5 were French and 3 English. All the URC teams qualified to the knockout stage. Tells me that the URC has been getting stronger!
Quote:Sarriebone
That was garbage, utter garbage.
Still don't understand Maro's yellow, looked on the arm to me.
Injuries galore, @#$%& poor discipline, really not good enough.
Suspect bans incoming for George and Riccioni.
Maro's yellow was called for offside. Still disagree with that. If you look he was fully outsteched - all 6' 6 and with the arm extended.
Quote:Harrow SarrieQuote:Sarriebone
That was garbage, utter garbage.
Still don't understand Maro's yellow, looked on the arm to me.
Injuries galore, @#$%& poor discipline, really not good enough.
Suspect bans incoming for George and Riccioni.
Maro's yellow was called for offside. Still disagree with that. If you look he was fully outsteched - all 6' 6 and with the arm extended.
Yeah I agree, looked onside to me
I raised this about tackling before that the habit of getting your head lower as run into a tackler was an issue. Both decisions were correct, but for Jamie the Edinburgh drive in with his head, Jamie's was not driving into the tackle and neither did Riccioni. There has to be some level of care by the ball carrier too. You cannot put it all on the tackler if the carrier drives in with a lowered head. He has a standard of care he has to have for the tackler too. Trouble is both decisions were correct by the law as it stands.
Agree re Billy. Arrogant, and he does it a lot now.
Quote:I believe so if it was deemed a red by the citing commissioner, could be wrong thoughEric Browett
Can you get cited if you were yellow carded during the game, Sarriebone?
Agree re Billy. Arrogant, and he does it a lot now.
Enjoyed Billy pulling an Eben that ended up in a knock on from them

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:22:19:48:42 by Sarriebone.
I thought the same as he became unbound when he feel to his knee. Can't see how they cannot be obstructing if they are in front of him
The ref was allowing absolute chaos all over and I think we did well to reverse Edinburgh’s initial superiority at the breakdown. Schoeman (what a match from him!) should’ve had his try looked at, seemed to be obstruction to me. Itoje’s yellow seemed like the one thing that shouldn’t have been carded as I think he got back onside!
Mawi’s offload for Earl’s try was sumptuous and it would’ve been nice to see a bit more of it but for that camera being blocked from the corner.
Delighted we have a home knockout match, Ospreys have shown they’re going to be a massive test. Lots of familiar questions were asked of us today and I’m not sure we’re any closer to finding an answer. Farrell out or not it was up front where the issues were both in physicality and mentality- I swear Billy was begging to be marched back at points. On the positive side, Earl was sensational, his work rate is off the charts.
Quote:Static
Don't think the ref impacted either. He was fussy and may be a different view of some things than we normally get but can't remember much if anything that was massively wrong.
I raised this about tackling before that the habit of getting your head lower as run into a tackler was an issue. Both decisions were correct, but for Jamie the Edinburgh drive in with his head, Jamie's was not driving into the tackle and neither did Riccioni. There has to be some level of care by the ball carrier too. You cannot put it all on the tackler if the carrier drives in with a lowered head. He has a standard of care he has to have for the tackler too. Trouble is both decisions were correct by the law as it stands.
Can’t agree more, if the safety of the attacking player is solely the responsibility of the defender then we will lose all competition.
Quote:Westy68
I can’t believe Sarries allowed Jamie George back on the pitch and said he was only winded. He was clearly knocked out - really poor player welfare
He passed a HIA which I think is carried out by an independent doctor? Clearly he then wasn't right at half time and was re-assessed.
I agree it would have been better if he hadn't been cleared first off but I'm not sure it was the club pushing him back on.
Quote:APQuote:Westy68
I can’t believe Sarries allowed Jamie George back on the pitch and said he was only winded. He was clearly knocked out - really poor player welfare
He passed a HIA which I think is carried out by an independent doctor? Clearly he then wasn't right at half time and was re-assessed.
I agree it would have been better if he hadn't been cleared first off but I'm not sure it was the club pushing him back on.
It was mentioned that Sarries said he was only winded which is why he came back on, it sounded like he didn’t have an HIA. Was he off for 10 minutes?
Quote:Maro’s yellow was for blocking Edinburgh while offsideSarriebone
That was garbage, utter garbage.
Still don't understand Maro's yellow, looked on the arm to me.
Injuries galore, @#$%& poor discipline, really not good enough.
Suspect bans incoming for George and Riccioni.
If you get a yellow surely that’s it, no citing or further punishment? Not exactly as if they did anything that bad or will be available for us anyway for weeks
Hope Jamie’s HIA not too bad England v short fit hookers!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:22:21:54:20 by maynas.
Huge props to Hislop and Judge (Ricconi looked superb until the head knock too) both of whom did well at set piece against supposedly superior opposition. Pifeleti had a good game too when he came on. Van Zyl continues to impress and whilst I've been very much in his corner the tempo continuously drops when Davies comes on. Tompkins a human-dynamo as ever and Earl and Christie great. As said above what a great offload out of a double tackle by Mawi. Some exceptional defensive work on Sarries line too. Daly will get his usual pass from most here but kicking away possession on one of the few breaks we had with Maro outside him and a man behind just dull.
I hope George is alright. Hard not to see that as a red though. Had the Edinburgh player gone down in any manner then I suspect George would have seen red regardless of him coming off worse. I do get what people are saying about the attacker needs to carry some responsibility but whether we like it or not those aren't the Laws right now.
Riccionis I thought the mitigation was there. I all happened so quickly but it looked to me that he actively chose not to dip into contact as he realised by the time he did that it would mean head on head contact. Its a very passive tackle that he almost steps back from. Yellow seemed right.
Like others I'm a bit bemused by Maros as I'm not sure he was offside and playing the arm is legal. Agree with others that having detached from the maul I am not sure what clearer evidence you need of obstruction than two Sarries players not being able to make tackles on the carrier because there are Edinburgh playesr in front of him stopping them??
Skinner could easily have been a PT but that might be Sarries-goggles rather than an objective view.
All that said Edinburgh well worth the win. Their LH prop absolutely phenomenal.
Re Jamie George, I trust the club to act in the players interests. I don't believe any game is "big enough" that they'd send out a player who wasn't right. It is worth noting that a few minutes after he comes back out he's prone at a ruck when an Edinburgh player seems to "clear" him with a tucked arm to the head. So maybe that was a contributory factor? Regardless I hope its looked at properly and at the very least it shows that having a neutral Doctor at the ground works as it was their call that got him off.
Quote:JimG
Well played Edinburgh but pretty funny that they kicked it off at the end instead of trying to take our home tie. Terrible ground from a spectator perspective. Very low rise and pillars absolutely everywhere. Didn’t help that there was zero action anywhere near our corner.
On the TV their coach said they were aware of the points but he said he felt they had lost attacking momentum and also they were a player down. Although he didn't say it implicitly I'd take that to mean they thought the risk of losing possession and maybe ending up losing the game wasn't worth the risk in playing on to score the extra points to finish a position above Sarries.
My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.
I'm begging her for one more try!
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:JimG
Well played Edinburgh but pretty funny that they kicked it off at the end instead of trying to take our home tie. Terrible ground from a spectator perspective. Very low rise and pillars absolutely everywhere. Didn’t help that there was zero action anywhere near our corner.
On the TV their coach said they were aware of the points but he said he felt they had lost attacking momentum and also they were a player down. Although he didn't say it implicitly I'd take that to mean they thought the risk of losing possession and maybe ending up losing the game wasn't worth the risk in playing on to score the extra points to finish a position above Sarries.
Hmm. They had the ball (obviously) and I think we would have kicked it out if we had got it back. Anyway no matter. If they are happy so be it but I wouldn’t have been.
Quote:ComeOnSarries
Can’t believe that Edinburgh didn’t know that they needed one more match point to get the home game.
Although we deservedly lost the net result is a home game against Ospreys rather than Montpellier and to be honest that is probably a good outcome for Sarries given the gun team Montpellier could put out if they were serious.
One interesting stat is that the 8 teams that didn’t qualify 5 were French and 3 English. All the URC teams qualified to the knockout stage. Tells me that the URC has been getting stronger!
Not comparing apples with apples as you could argue that your are comparing a multi-country league against single country leagues
Quote:OldMarovian
I hope George is alright. Hard not to see that as a red though. Had the Edinburgh player gone down in any manner then I suspect George would have seen red regardless of him coming off worse. I do get what people are saying about the attacker needs to carry some responsibility but whether we like it or not those aren't the Laws right now.
Riccionis I thought the mitigation was there. I all happened so quickly but it looked to me that he actively chose not to dip into contact as he realised by the time he did that it would mean head on head contact. Its a very passive tackle that he almost steps back from. Yellow seemed right.
Don't disagree with any of that, and I am happy with the ref's decisions as things stand. But for me it makes it obvious that some coaches are working to the new Law interpretations, not necessarily in the spirit of what's intended - player safety.
Both of Edinburgh's attacking players dropped their right shoulder into contact and aimed their heads at George's and Riccioni's heads respectively. Both defending players were very passive in contact and all the force came from the attacking players. The passivity is presumably why mitigation down to yellow was applied in both cases. While it can be argued that they should have dropped to make the tackle, all this happens very quickly and the Edinburgh players actions looked quite deliberate - both could have avoided head contact but actively sought it out.
This is disgusting and cannot be allowed to stand. Not in this precise case where I am happy the current rules were followed, but in general. The interpretations must be changed.
Contrast it with the actions of the Toulouse player in the Munster game where he charged in to Joey Carbery, lowered his head and the raised it into Carbery's head in contact. That looked completely deliberate but was missed by the officials and not penalised. I hope there is a citing officer intervention and the Toulouse player gets a long ban. Needless to say there were apparently no replays on French TV of this, but I also wasn't happy how Dayglo and O'Driscoll made 'what can you expect of French TV' light of it - this should be called out until it is stopped
To suggest that the Edinburgh players were deliberately seeking head contact at speed is quite a stretch.
The 2 yellows could easily have been reds.
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Quote:OldMarovian
I guess its inevitable that sides will adapt to take "advantage" of the Laws as you say AlanE2 but it would be a real shame if players were actively trying to get opposition players sent off by gaming the contact. It didn't really strike me that way from viewing this weekends games but maybe I was just not seeing it.
We'll see .....
Extract from Guardian article -
One of the more endearing points of the RFU’s press release was to note that ball-carriers will be “encouraged” to evade tacklers without effecting any late or sudden changes in body height. Good luck with that. As a counter, Nick Easter, Chinnor’s director of rugby, suggested he will be coaching his ball-carriers to do precisely the opposite, thus milking penalty after penalty. Ball-carriers have always set the terms of the tackle, which is why focusing all the attention on the tackler is not only unjust but utterly futile.
Quote:OldMarovian
I guess its inevitable that sides will adapt to take "advantage" of the Laws as you say AlanE2 but it would be a real shame if players were actively trying to get opposition players sent off by gaming the contact. It didn't really strike me that way from viewing this weekends games but maybe I was just not seeing it.
I agree it would be a shame, and it didn't strike me at the time either. However, looking at it back on replay, the attacking players definitely dipped their shoulders and looked to me that they changed the angle of their head to make contact. It is all very quick of course. At the least, I think this is something that referees should be allowed to take into account and, if necessary, card the attacking player; it's not all about the tackler. But I know that is not the position currently and the referee applied the current protocols correctly (as far as I could see).
1. There are two options here, a player can stand motionless but bracing himself so as not to move backward, I think that can be a red card as you are fully aware and there is intent in not allowing the player to pass. Options two as in both cases I believe yesterday there is an attempt to wrap the player and fall backwards to the ground. Any force comes from the charging player. This brings no intent to halt the player and is very passive with the effect of bringing someone to ground. At most that appears to be yellow to me. Worth pointing out that based on the discussion above too, I don't think a charging player aims for a head contact, you could argue they are reckless, but they stay low to make it difficult to tackle.
2. Nothing to see there for me without any intent, not even a penalty.
3. Red card, doesn't matter who you impact a truly reckless charge into a maul is a red card.
Just my views of what makes sense to me.
The other two are less clear.
The situation must exist already where the ball carrier drives low for the try line where the defenders are crouched: what happens if he knocks himself out on a defender's knee?
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Quote:RugbyDoc2
So let me ask about some hypothetical head impact decisions. 1: a defender stands motionless and upright but the ball carrier runs into him and there is head contact. What is the correct ref's decision?
I saw this exact situation in a university match many decades ago. Away team wing (a then current Scotland B, and soon to be full, international) chipped the ball around the home team full back ( a future England international) and anticipating he would follow the ball ran through the space which he occupied.
Except he didn't as the home team full back didn't move and stood his ground as the Scottish international clattered into him, losing several teeth in the process and being carried off to hospital where he spent several days.
Decision: play on. They were more unforgiving times.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:23:17:39:59 by AlanE2.
41:38 first action of Skinner on the "clear" is an elbow to Jamie Georges head ...
The problem is entirely due to the (relatively) modern practice of trying to smother the ball in the tackle. Attackers have always dropped the shoulder into a defender coming in high in order to protect the ball. There is a perfectly safe if old fashioned method of tackling head on or from the side, but of course that has consequences which defence coaches will not like. However I have no doubt that some clever clogs will find a way of defending effectively even when the tackle height is lowered.
