SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here


By Monaghan Boy
October 19 2023

Perhaps shell-shocked is the word. A failure in attitude and performance, short of the passion and standards expected at Saracens. While our England stars prepare for a World Cup semi-final in Paris, those remaining to start the season in north London will, no doubt, be working tirelessly to put right the failures of last weekends humbling at Sandy Park. Visitors Bath Rugby travel to the Stonex stadium this weekend, looking to condemn hosts Saracens to back-to-back losses to start the season.

This time last year, a rampaging Ollie Lawrence almost saw the visitors overhaul Saracens’ dominant early display. Tries from Alex Goode, Max Malins, Elliot Daly and Alex Lewington were enough to hold out for a 37-31 victory, aided by a last minute interception from captain - and now England’s all-time leading points scorer - Owen Farrell. Now, a little over a year later, both sides have enjoyed rather different opening weekends to the 23/24 season. Bath’s winless start to their previous campaign was quickly overshadowed by a 34-26 win against Newcastle falcons last Saturday, while, about 80 miles down the road, Saracens fell to a record defeat against Sandy Park’s Exeter Chiefs. The results see this weekend’s fixture billed as 10th vs 2nd in the league - a near 180 reverse to recent seasons past. Wholesale changes are a rarity at Saracens, even following a defeat of last week’s scale. One of the few positives will have been the return of Andy Christie from long-term injury and he will surely return to the starting line-up this coming weekend. Charlie Bracken too, in a rare run out, staked his claim for another appearance in the match day 23. Alex Goode and Manu Vunipola have traded the 10 shirt during the opening few weeks of the season, neither showing particular verve, and with the former steering the ship recklessly last time out, another switch at 10 would be unsurprising. Additionally, Tom Parton’s head injury substitution could keep him out of this weekends fixture, requiring Alex’s return to his regular job at fullback Alternatively, a returning Nick Tompkins from international duty would open the door for Alex Lozowski to make a rare start at Fly-half, with 21-year-old Olly Hartley continuing in the centres. Following an impressive World Cup campaign, Nick, an integral Saracen, could rival Lozowski for captain duties, until Owen Farrell’s return in November. Like Tompkins, loose-head Eroni Mawi returns to North London following quarter final defeat in France - and an arm injury to the beleaguered Ralph Adams-Hale should see him return to the match day 23 imminently. Ex-Saracens Ben Spencer and Matt Gallagher will surely return to the Stonex this weekend. The former, following last weeks hat trick, wears the blue, black and white captains armband for a second consecutive season. Most likely, he’s set to line-up alongside high-profile summer signing Finn Russell, in what would be his first start in the 10 jersey for the club. Elsewhere, back-rowers Chris Cloete, Alfie Barbeary and Ted Hill enter their second seasons with Bath and should present a fearsome challenge for the likes of Theo McFarland and Tom Willis. The fixture promises much intrigue, regardless of allegiance, but should Saracens again fail to play to their exceptional potential, it could continue to set the tone for both clubs polar starts to the season

SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: TheSaracens.com (IP Logged)
Date: 19/10/2023 21:05

Many thanks to Monaghan Boy, the latest recruit to our reporting team.
What an excellent debut piece



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:02:17:07:07 by Darraghgirl.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: MonaghanBoy (IP Logged)
Date: 19/10/2023 22:01

Quote:
TheSaracens.com
Many thanks to Monaghan Boy, the latest recruit to our reporting team.
What an excellent debut piece

Thanks for having me!

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: The Bard (IP Logged)
Date: 20/10/2023 08:48

Yes well done indeed. If any clues are to be gleaned from the training video we might see Mako rather than Mawi at loose head, and Manu rather than Goodey at 10. Hadn’t realised Parton was HIA but I didn’t think we were going to simply hook him at half time.
Didn’t spot Tizard or Ivan on the video sadly, and no word on Woolfie either

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: sodslaw (IP Logged)
Date: 20/10/2023 12:01

Saracens Men team to play Bath Rugby:

1 Mako Vunipola (c)

2 James Hadfield

3 Marco Riccioni

4 Callum Hunter-Hill

5 Nick Isiekwe

6 Theo McFarland

7 Andy Christie

8 Tom Willis

9 Aled Davies

10 Manu Vunipola

11 Rotimi Segun

12 Nick Tompkins

13 Alex Lozowski

14 Sean Maitland

15 Alex Goode

Replacements:

16 Samson Adejimi

17 Tom West

18 Alec Clarey

19 Ollie Stonham

20 Toby Knight

21 Gareth Simpson

22 Olly Hartley

23 Alex Lewington

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Sarriebone (IP Logged)
Date: 20/10/2023 12:07

Bath Rugby XV:
1 Juan Schoeman,
2 Niall Annett,
3 Johannes Jonker,
4 Quinn Roux,
5 Charlie Ewels,
6 Miles Reid,
7 Chris Cloete,
8 Alfie Barbeary,
9 Ben Spencer,
10 Finn Russell,
11 Ruaridh McConnochie,
12 Will Butt,
13 Cameron Redpath,
14 Joe Cokanasiga,
15 Tom de Glanville

Replacements:
16 Tom Dunn,
17 Thomas du Toit,
18 Archie Griffin,
19 Josh McNally,
20 Jaco Coetzee,
21 Louis Schreuder,
22 Orlando Bailey,
23 Max Ojomoh

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Surbiton Sarries (IP Logged)
Date: 20/10/2023 12:16

Referee: Hamish Smales
ARs: Simon Harding & Gareth Holsgrove
TMO: David Rose

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Darraghgirl (IP Logged)
Date: 20/10/2023 12:18

Strong Bath team! Could be another tough day at the office

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Strangelove (IP Logged)
Date: 20/10/2023 12:22

Great piece Monaghan Boy!

Strong team from Bath, not hopeful of a victory to be honest. Good to see Mako , Andy and Tommo back, should help!

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: The Bard (IP Logged)
Date: 20/10/2023 12:28

Bath must be catching up Sale in the South African count!
Marco must be preying not to concede 60+ points for the fourth game running…

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: ComeOnSarries (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 11:09

Looking like there will be a fair amount of drizzle in the air this afternoon, presumably making the ball more slippery. Given who we have selected that might actually suit us as I don’t think we are particularly well resourced for fast open rugby, particularly comparing respective half backs.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Sarriebone (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 16:04

Again, 40 minutes into the match and done absolutely nothing. At least the defence has been marginally better I suppose

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Harrow Sarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 17:26

I know we have a few players out at RWC, but my goodness that describing that as "abject" today is being charitable. I didn't get to watch last week's game but it seems our wider squad have not managed to find their mojo in either game...

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: #wolfpack1 (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 17:56

That was ****

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: ComeOnSarries (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 18:01

I thought it was a considerable improvement on last week as there was a lot more commitment in the tackle. We were outmuscled upfront but that was a fully loaded Bath pack and due to the RWC and injuries we were pretty short (for example 5th and 6th choice hookers). Disappointedly we didn’t do a lot with the ball that we won and completely butchered a 3 on one overlap a couple of times but the conditions in the 2nd half were simply not conducive to running rugby.
We will be bottom of the table on Sunday evening and that feels right, but we will be a lot stronger by the time Leicester come to town in a fortnight.
The days of having 2 world class players for most positions have long gone as Sarries and others have to manage squads on much smaller budgets.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Eric Browett (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 19:01

It's not often I criticise our management team but I can't help thinking that throwing Nick, Theo and Marco back in straight away has been a mistake. They'll be bruised physically , mentally and emotionally and expecting them to re-engage immediately is a step too far.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: #wolfpack1 (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 19:27

A considerable improvement in that Bath - unlike Exeter - didn’t score every play.

Otherwise…

Did we get into their 22 except for the Christie charge down. The lack of intent in both attack and D is so painful. I’ve never heard booing at the SX before today

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: The Bard (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 19:55

It wasn’t as if de Glanville dropped anything to make it worth pursuing. Continuity in the backs woeful . They scored their first two tries far too easily but the defence did improve thereafter.
How the ref let them waste so much time at lineouts beyond me. I suspect that was what the booing was about.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: nedrichards (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 20:54

This was obviously terrible. And that it was an immense improvement on last week was an indictment of that performance. But, as I sat back strangely unmoved, looking at the driving rain and inability to cross the gain line combined with the surprise in many of the newer fans around me I had to remind a few of them - this is what it used to be like every week. Character building I tell you, the next trophy, be it one, two, ten or one hundred years away will taste a lot sweeter to them, because yes. They were there when we were crap.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: maynas (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 23:23

Game management was atrocious, kicking all the time to de Glanville was pointless, no imagination, and taking kicks at goal when 10 points down not showing any intent either. Awful game we never looked like winning or even competing after 5 minutes. Next time there is a World Cup I'm no bothering having a season ticket !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:10:21:23:24:48 by maynas.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 21/10/2023 23:58

How can we finish the last season playing intelligent, tactically flexible, exciting to watch rugby and now be serving up this?
The club has done a great job of recruiting what seems to me a stronger squad than last season.
We have a squad full of players happy to play at tempo and keep possession and yet we play a gameplan that makes half their skillset redundant? and repeat the tactic of bringing dangerous attacking opposition INTO the game by kicking don their throats ...
Yes it was wet but the rain falls on both teams and Bath played with purpose and ambition.
The effort from the team was better but both they and the supporters are being poorly served by this insipid and ineffective gameplan.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Kentish Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 07:25

Quote:
ComeOnSarries
I thought it was a considerable improvement on last week as there was a lot more commitment in the tackle. We were outmuscled upfront but that was a fully loaded Bath pack and due to the RWC and injuries we were pretty short (for example 5th and 6th choice hookers). Disappointedly we didn’t do a lot with the ball that we won and completely butchered a 3 on one overlap a couple of times but the conditions in the 2nd half were simply not conducive to running rugby.
We will be bottom of the table on Sunday evening and that feels right, but we will be a lot stronger by the time Leicester come to town in a fortnight.
The days of having 2 world class players for most positions have long gone as Sarries and others have to manage squads on much smaller budgets.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Kentish Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 07:26

Not sure that was ‘a fully loaded Bath pack’, missing Obama, Stuart, Underhill and Hill

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 08:24

Quote:
ComeOnSarries
Disappointedly we didn’t do a lot with the ball that we won and completely butchered a 3 on one overlap a couple of times.

I think this is the biggest issue right now. Getting beaten by a better team (the last two weeks) isn't an issue. It's the manner of the defeats and the lack of ambition in the game plan that is so upsetting. Also playing a negative way makes a certain sense when your defence is operating like a bear-trap. When it's throwing out TBPs like confetti much less so.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: The Bard (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 09:03

What is frustrating is that last year we won all the games in the autumn international period and picked up bonus points in the 6N period and were always competitive.
From the moment of the kick off in Coventry we have looked without hope and played like we are on death row.
‘Young’ players such as Roti and Manu I’d really expected to step up have gone massively backwards and players like Nick and CHH in the pack have been moderate at best.
None of the senior backs have done anything defensively or offensively to lift the others.
Andy Christie has at least shown a bit of energy but this has been the worst start to a season I’ve seen from us in my 29 years.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Duncan96 (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 09:11

It’s puzzling how rubbish we become when we lose a raft of international players. The team on paper looked decent but clearly struggled. Unlike England who played a limited game plan against superior opposition in the rain and executed it wonderfully, we executed it badly. Like others above I wonder why we are playing such a limited game when it’s dry. I have a theory but I don’t want to publicly single out players when l’m really no expert on these matters.

It’s very reminiscent of that Championship pre season and start when the 6 Nations players were away. We were awful then even with a World Class prop who was a large part of England’s undoing yesterday. Like that season I think we will see a complete turnaround when the 9 players unavailable yesterday (and Ivan Van Zyl) return. But as I say, it’s a puzzle that we are so bad without them and a worry as they all get older that we need them so badly.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: ComeOnSarries (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 09:52

I thought the only positive yesterday was Andy Christie who did at least seem to have some energy and fight in him. Some of his illustrious colleagues less so.
I am also thinking that of the 9 still tied up at the RWC perhaps Billy and Theo will be available for the next home game as neither has played many minutes. The other 7 have played a lot of minutes.
RWC years are not good for Sarries. Wasn’t it four years ago we got our big points deduction? This time around we have gone for a different handicap approach.,

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 11:21

I'm not convinced right now that Billy returning is going to improve things unfortunately.

I can't see anything but the team improving regardless of whether those Internationals came back in as we've established such a low base. Tbh if this were another club I would wonder whether the players had lost confidence in the plan and coaches such is the obvious disconnect on field.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Mac L (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 11:37

Agree that this was dire. Am of the opinion that we need to try out different people for the 9 and 10 roles. Neither looked up for it yesterday. Sad, sad state of affairs. Is there relegation this season?

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 11:52

When the whole team under-performs it's easy to throw the 9 and 10 under the bus.
Senior players not stepping up and leading is maybe more of a question for me.
Things will improve for sure and the sun is still shining.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: David@Sarries (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 15:25

I watched yesterday’s game and agree that it was better than last week but that is a very low bar.

Bath deserved the win.

The ref yesterday was appalling and gave Bath so much latitude in attack and defence I was shocked. Even the BBC commented on the time they took to form the lineout.

However, we were nowhere near the standards we set ourselves. The one thing that we pride ourselves on is our passion and fight; I have yet to see either.

Throwing people in who have spent the last 4 months playing with and being coached by others is perhaps a sign of the sorry state that we find ourselves in.

This may be unfair but I that Mako and Billy have passed their prime. Mako was invisible yesterday and based on his performance at the RWC Billy has yet to discover any form.

As ever, I will continue to trust in Mark and his coaching team and support the team.

As with a lot of people here, I have experienced the highs and lows of being a Saracens supporter and nothing is going to change that.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: MonaghanBoy (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 16:37

I’d argue we are without 3 of our 4 most integral backs, and our 3 most integral forwards. To have a slow start to the season is expected, but it’s our attitude and game plan that concerned me. Tbh, I thought most of Aled’s kicks were on the money - and a tactically correct given the weather. But our chase wasn’t strong enough and De Glanville was imperious. Our inability to CHANGE when needed was most concerning. And that has to come down to our leaders and at 9 & 10.

It’s easy to make quick judgements on players following losses, but some positions do concern me. As Bard says , this early season was the opportunity for both Roti and Manu to step up, and neither have so far. They can still be fantastic players going forward, but neither have delivered in the period they were required to. But the same can be said of players at the other ends of their careers. Mako and Goodey have both looked pedestrian, as has Billy for England.

Regardless of a loss, it’s the passion I want to see. Andy still seems to be bringing that, as does Nick T, and so will Jamie, Ben, Faz and Ivan when they return. But it’s been missing in spades throughout much of the team.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:10:22:16:38:33 by MonaghanBoy.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: hertsman (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 18:08

Looking back over previous RWC, when we were missing some level of players due to international call ups (not just England,) this is our record since 2011 - when we started the whole winning sequence. Just looking at games up to the end of November as presumably any rested players were back.

RWC 2011
LWWWW

2015
WWWWW

2019 - the year we were relegated and IIRC the announcement was made just after the RWC final, maybe adding fire to the last couple of performances.
LWWWW

2023
LLxxx

So even though we were in a similar position previously with players missing, we are already on a worse run than before - I accept this could change to LLWWW so lets hoping.

Of the XV for yesterday, there's only a couple who may not be thought of as experienced, so this shouldn't be far off a team who should do better and lack of internationals shouldn't be the excuse. The bench was lacking experience so maybe giving them the learning experience that Alex Goode talked about at the Quins game on TV (and was very eloquent and spoke intelligently) will iron out the relatively poor start to the premiership.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Banzai1314 (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 18:09

The cynical slowing the game at every line out and mysterious injuries occurring when we were looking to speed things up were atrocious. Someone sitting behind me questioned what the role of the assistants were other than running up and down the line and marking the position of the lineouts. When Andy Christie was pushed in the face and the hit on Tom Wallis’s head directly in front of the assistant seemed to go unnoticed and not even referred. Hamiish Smales just looks lost and made decisions based on crowd reaction or players comments. Bath deserved the win and we didn’t look like scoring a try but something has to be done with the officiating.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Francis Allen (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 20:16

Cast your mind back to the 6th May, a week before the Premiership semi final when Bath played a understrength Saracens side at the Rec. Bath who were on a winning streak won 61-29 but the manner in which the young Saracens side played was mightily impressive. It made for a compelling game and a lot of the talk after the game was about how well those young players coped. Only 3 of that 23 played yesterday and it struck me they would have done a lot better than yesterdays side. Yes it was a side weakened by the RWC but there were many experienced players in that side yesterday who need to think about their performance. None of them displayed the guts, passion and determination shown by the young lads that day.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 22/10/2023 20:30

Good point Francis Allen.
That team played with freedom and ambition (and tbf it's easier to play with no expectation) whereas we currently play with neither. Food for thought?

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: LutonS (IP Logged)
Date: 23/10/2023 09:18

Quote:
OldMarovian
When the whole team under-performs it's easy to throw the 9 and 10 under the bus.
Senior players not stepping up and leading is maybe more of a question for me.

I take your point but the 9 and 10 combinations this season have been:

Davies - Well over 200 senior appearances in his career including 20 full international caps.
Goode - Club record appearance holder

Davies - Well over 200 senior appearances in his career including 20 full international caps.
Vunipola

In other words, 3 out of the 4 have been the senior players. It's fairly clear to me that most of our attacking issues are coming from 9 and 10. I think the decision not to to recruit another 10, may prove very costly.

Just a word on Manu - You have a bloke who's probably short on confidence playing at 10 and you get an easy conversion chance inside 2 minutes right in front of the posts. So you throw the ball to the outside centre to convert it.........

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: #wolfpack1 (IP Logged)
Date: 23/10/2023 11:17

The refusal to think seriously about succession planning at 10 for several seasons has been odd. Manu has never looked like making the cut; we’ve been relying on Goode and Loz for years to fill in at 10 in meaningful games when Farrell isn’t available.

Davies has had a horrible start to the season, but not even Davies would play as negatively as he has done without instruction. The instruction to kick everything away - turnover ball, penalty advantages, overlaps - must be a coach driven tactic.

It needs to be junked asap. At least try and score some points. We don’t mind losing; we do mind losing like this.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 23/10/2023 12:57

I think there is succession planning. Whether people agree it's working is another matter.

I'd suggest that Manu is the current succession plan but the excellent composition of the squad has meant that we have other players with greater experience who can step in at 10 whilst he continues to improve. That is a strength. It could equally be argued it inhibits his growth as a player (not a criticism just an observation) as it means he misses out on game time at 10 and experiencing the tough games there. He is still young, Farrell is unlikely to be going anywhere soon afaik and I'd rate him as at least as good as most no2 choices through the Premiership.

As also pointed out in a previous discussion on the topic where do we imagine the money comes for the £350K plus no 10 that we think would be, young enough, good enough and ok with being in Farrells shadow for the foreseeable future??

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Dolph42 (IP Logged)
Date: 23/10/2023 14:17

I'm not sure how you can adequately succession plan to be honest. If we brought in a young FH, they'd be on a 2 or 3 year deal, but realistically Faz is (injuries aside) probably going to be our first choice for another 4 or 5 years? So we could develop a younger FH and then they'd leave, which would probably be before we'd need them for tier 1 matches anyway. FH's are the most expensive players to acquire so expecting us to have a top quality back up is unrealistic. Manu and Goode are more than capable and know their role within the squad. The team has performed poorly the last two weeks but realistically we're missing around 12 of our best 23 (who also happen to be our best and most influential players), so we'll turn it around.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: AP (IP Logged)
Date: 23/10/2023 15:35

I'm afraid that I'm not convinced that Alex (G) is effective at 10 for us currently. I know Alex (L) had success at 10 in France a few years back but has he played there at all for us? I think Manu at 10, Alex L at 12 and Alex G at 15 is the best combination but they need to sort out who kicks off and place kicks.

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 23/10/2023 16:11

Did you mean Lozo at 12 rather than 13 AP?

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: MonaghanBoy (IP Logged)
Date: 23/10/2023 18:14

Arguably, the solution may be finding a replacement for Goodey. Someone who can cover fly half brilliantly in their prime, but also challenge for another place in the back line, so they’re not purely Faz’s understudy. Not many names spring to mind however.

OM makes a good point about the money required, but IMO this is the first season in a while where I’ve felt we’ve had some serious imbalance in the squad. Perhaps somewhat blasphemously, I can’t help but think the money spent on Mako and Billy this year could’ve been better spent at Fly Half and Wing. Especially when we consider the depth we’d still have in the back row.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: MarkCol7 (IP Logged)
Date: 23/10/2023 18:50

Quote:
MonaghanBoy
Arguably, the solution may be finding a replacement for Goodey. Someone who can cover fly half brilliantly in their prime, but also challenge for another place in the back line, so they’re not purely Faz’s understudy. Not many names spring to mind however.
OM makes a good point about the money required, but IMO this is the first season in a while where I’ve felt we’ve had some serious imbalance in the squad. Perhaps somewhat blasphemously, I can’t help but think the money spent on Mako and Billy this year could’ve been better spent at Fly Half and Wing. Especially when we consider the depth we’d still have in the back row.

Bringing Damian Willemse back when Goode retires would be an ideal replacement

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: AP (IP Logged)
Date: 23/10/2023 22:17

Quote:
OldMarovian
Did you mean Lozo at 12 rather than 13 AP?

Of course, he's at 13, we can probably root around for a Welsh 12.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: #wolfpack1 (IP Logged)
Date: 24/10/2023 09:28

Quote:
MonaghanBoy
. Perhaps somewhat blasphemously, I can’t help but think the money spent on Mako and Billy this year could’ve been better spent at Fly Half and Wing. Especially when we consider the depth we’d still have in the back row.

Suspect BillyV still being around is more by accident than design. I think everyone assumed he was moving to France, hence the signing of Willis as a replacement. BillyV is a very expensive player to have outside of the 23 man squad - reality is he is probably 6th choice backrow forward? Maybe 7th if Isikwe is considered a 6.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: Dolph42 (IP Logged)
Date: 24/10/2023 09:32

Wolfpack is right. Billy activated his plus 1 clause for this season. Although I’m not sure if Sarries had to activate their side of it for him to stay.

Re: SARACENS v BATH please post match related comment here
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 24/10/2023 09:37

We're quick to forget how good and important (vital) Billy was to Sarries last, winning, season.

I'm concerned by what I've seen of him playing for England but it's entirely possible to be a great club player even if the International game might be beyond you now.

Both Vunipolae are signed up for this season and I am sure will make valuable contributions. I'm not sure McCall and Co do reputation over performance so if any players don't deliver I think they will see their game time decrease.

Too me two things seem clear re the Premiership. Pretty much all teams seem to have strengthened their front row resources and the majority are playing a more attacking game.

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