HARLEQUINS v SARACENS please post match comment here

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:26:19:50:05 by Darraghgirl.

Excellent preview. It will be interesting to see the teams that take to the field.
COYS.

Looks like Owen, Maro and Jamie at least back in for Saturday

The scrum issues have unfortunately been there all season. Hopefully Riccioni and George are well rested after their week off, I’m not sure who we’ll see at tighthead though. Marler and Collier are two of the best scrummagers in the league so we’ll need to work hard to get parity.

Riccioni seems to fall foul of referees recently. It's Mawi and Clarey if fit for me.

Quote:

Eric Browett
Riccioni seems to fall foul of referees recently. It's Mawi and Clarey if fit for me.

Neither of them looked at all comfortable at the end of Sunday

On the basis that Stonham, Knight and Pearce-Paul are plying for Ampthill tomorrow night, does that mean we might see Theo or Nick on Saturday?

Quote:

The Bard
On the basis that Stonham, Knight and Pearce-Paul are plying for Ampthill tomorrow night, does that mean we might see Theo or Nick on Saturday?

Suspect Billy will be the lock replacement.

The scrum has been really bad this season. I’d love to know the stats, but I suspect we’ve given away a penalty on about 50% of scrums (on either sides put in) this season

I wouldn’t rule out a 6-2 split

Saracens Men team to play Harlequins:

1 Mako Vunipola

2 Jamie George

3 Marco Riccioni

4 Maro Itoje

5 Hugh Tizard

6 Juan Martin Gonzalez

7 Andy Christie

8 Billy Vunipola

9 Ivan Van Zyl

10 Owen Farrell (c)

11 Elliot Daly

12 Nick Tompkins

13 Alex Lozowski

14 Alex Lewington

15 Alex Goode

Replacements:

16 Theo Dan

17 Eroni Mawi

18 Alec Clarey

19 Tom Willis

20 Ben Earl

21 Aled Davies

22 Olly Hartley

23 Tom Parton

Slightly disappointed not to see Daly at 15. And was also hoping for more Cinti. Surprised big Tom isn't starting - both big games since the boys returned, they've started Billy instead.

I think Billy needs game time, we've always know he gets better the more he plays and he's barely played all year

Harlequins v Saracens
Referee: Matthew Carley
ARs: Craig Maxwell-Keys & Jamie Leahy
TMO: Tom Foley

Quins Starting XV:

1. Joe Marler (269)
2. Jack Walker (45)
3. Will Collier (226)
4. Joe Launchbury (7)
5. George Hammond (50)
6. Dino Lamb (87)
7. Will Evans (70)
8. Alex Dombrandt (120 - Captain)
9. Will Porter (6)
10. Marcus Smith (142)
11. Louis Lynagh (51)
12. Andre Esterhuizen (71)
13. Oscar Beard (36)
14. Tyrone Green (56)
15. Nick David (38)

Impact Players:

16. Sam Riley (37)
17. Fin Baxter (31)
18. Dillon Lewis (2)
19. Chandler Cunningham-South (2)
20. James Chisholm (137)
21. Danny Care (359)
22. Jarrod Evans (5)
23. Will Joseph (4)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:17:12:56:39 by Sarriebone.

Looks like a tasty encounter between two pretty strong teams. I think our 5 forward replacements look stronger than Quins so maybe we edge it in the last quarter and silence the Stoop faithful!

Mako and Marco absolutely must up their scrummaging games. Marco was repeatedly penalised against NZ by Carley and Mako is going to ground far too often. Lose that battle and we have our backs to the wall

Agreed Bard: And Collier and Marler with Launchbury behind is a serious unit.

Come on you sarries!

𝗧𝗘𝗔𝗠 𝗖𝗛𝗔𝗡𝗚𝗘.

Elliot Daly has been ruled out of the match this evening.

Tom Parton starts on the left wing, with Ben Harris coming on to the bench.

Ben Earl out also ........not good

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Quote:

Sarriebone
𝗧𝗘𝗔𝗠 𝗖𝗛𝗔𝗡𝗚𝗘.
Elliot Daly has been ruled out of the match this evening.

Tom Parton starts on the left wing, with Ben Harris coming on to the bench.

Ben Earl too, did something in the warm up
Hope no one else goes

Now Loz...FFS!

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That was a pretty hard fought half, but the boys stuck at it well. Pretty happy going in at half time 3 tries to the good.

Have to say Hartley and PArton had good halves. Different players to who they replaced but both showing well.

Given that his dad played for us I wished we’d signed Louis Lynagh.

With the BP in the bag this defence is awesome , I guess Quins will get a try soon but I cant see them getting enough if we keep this intensity up

Quote:

Banzai1314
Given that his dad played for us I wished we’d signed Louis Lynagh.

Absolutely!

Interesting that Dombrandt getting on wrong end of Ref

Great result and a very committed performance. The usual players really stood up but I will say I thought Parton covered very well for Daly.
I loved Mako’s reaction when Tom Willis knocked on over the try line! Willis will be catching some flak this week!!

Theo went off for an HIA. Let's hope he's OK

Andy might be one of my favourite players... but JMG has been robbed of MOTM 2 weeks running.

I going to say it now. With the squad we now have I think we could win the European Champions Cup. There is strength and depth in all departments and a togetherness needed to go deep into the competition. Bring on the Bears !

Another great win on the road. From having no points after 2 games we are now 3rd with the 2nd best points diff (somehow). Chiefs will go above us with a win at Glos tomorrow. Some excellent performances tonight but we have a special player in JMG - was defo MoM. Well played lads, let’s hope some of the injuries picked up tonight will be ok for bears next week.

That was one of the best performances in a long while- loads of disruption from injuries, away at the Stoop to the league leaders and no replacement locks. Credit to the front row, the scrum looked a lot better this week. Massive performances from everyone really. Parton looked great on the wing, JMG is sensational, Christie class, Maro has rediscovered his midfield galloping runs this season, Goode with a sensational pass for one try and big parts in two other tries. Highly satisfying win for the lads and played some beautiful rugby in both attack and defence.

One other player deserving a mention was Billy. Thought he had a great game both in contact when he took it and when choosing not too and moving the ball. Very difficult to defend when you don't know which he'll do. I thought it was his best game for a while.

Tompkins was MoM for me - he's really settling into the Brad role, though a different style of play.

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

A performance beyond my best dreams considering the start, two internationals injured in warm up, another after 3 mins, missed kick to corner and being marched back for chat and then penalised at the first scrum.
Sensational after that, we’d clearly decided to throw it around from everywhere and proper Wolfpack defence.
Hartley and Parton stepped up magnificently, Goodey as good as I’ve ever seen him.
Billy really responded to the challenge to his position with a vintage display

Quote:

AP
Tompkins was MoM for me - he's really settling into the Brad role, though a different style of play.

Agree AP.
Not only is he quality but he makes the players around him better through his smart play and interventions. Well done to Hartley for coming on and making a great impression and you feel playing between Farrell and Tompkins was a huge part of that.

I hope all those who picked up knocks are ok. Gutted for Earl if he's out for a while. As McCall says that's two weeks in a row that the team have coped pretty incredibly with late set backs (going back to last years final we saw it there too) and tbh it is just hugely impressive how seamless the integration of newer players is into a main strength team.

There were so many positives but for me a major one was Sarries discipline. I appreciate that it is much easier on the front foot but even so I thought this was a major step forward on an issue it looks like we've been really addressing this season. Farrell asking good questions respectfully, no back-chat from Billy and whilst there was celebrating it seemed more contained and maybe a touch less antagonistic? Great stuff.

Huge credit to Peel and the forwards coaches. I'll be honest with West fit? and Makos early season game I was concerned about the scrum but against a very strong Quins unit Sarries seemed to have parity or be on top for most of the game. I can only guess Quins buttered Marler before his 200th cap to make Riccioni having him on toast all the easier!! seriously though both Marler and Collier are top opponents so that was mightily impressive.

Goode looked close to his best and Parton (who has maybe wobbled a bit to date?) was brilliant in both attack and especially defence.
Above all that was a genuinely thrilling game in terms of the ambition Sarries played with. I know that there's a massive step up from club to the International game but for all that is Holy, please Mr Borthwick, allow Farrell to play with a greater license for England. Yes he has an exceptional supporting cast for Sarries but he showed yet again that not only can he make sure we play in the right areas but that he can play a more expansive game when it's on.

That could easily have been 50 points on an almost fully loaded Quins side at home and whilst quite a few of their supporters, certainly at the game, seemed to feel it was more that Quins didn't turn up than Sarries were exceptional (I disagree!) the reality is the best teams not only play their way but stop you playing yours and that's exactly what Sarries did.
Arguably their best player, Esterhuzien, got little change from Sarries all night until slipping Lewingtons tackle on the wing. Smith was game but under pressure skipped up a number of blind-alleys and Dombrandt went MIA in exactly the type of game (in terms of England) you'd hope he'd show up in. In that regard Billy had a strong performance and whatever the issue was at the RWC it was great to see him playing well again. Nice to see Harris from the bench too.

All-in-all what a wonderful evening. Well done lads I hope you had a cracking evening.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Hopefully Riccioni and George are well rested after their week off

I can confirm that both had three Weetabix on Saturday morning. There are rumours that Mako may have had four! I thought Mawi and Clarey were great from the bench too. Honestly seeing how Clarey had grasped the opportunity presented to him by Sarries makes me so pleased. Mainly for him but also for the club.

Last thing on the game. Currently third and trys and points difference reigned in after the shellacking from Chiefs is impressive going with a third of the season gone already. Lots still to play but to date Sarries the only club to have played more away than home games which feels like it bodes well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:19:08:11:24 by OldMarovian.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Last thing on the game. Currently third and trys and points difference reigned in after the shellacking from Chiefs is impressive going with a third of the season gone already. Lots still to play but to date Sarries the only club to have played more away than home games which feels like it bodes well.

Indeed although two of the away games were the bottom two clubs, this week was a real litmus test against the form team of the league. It’s a been a great turnaround.

Agreed TK.
One other thing about the game. "Simple" skills executed well.
Sarries players running onto passes v lots of the delivery this week in the Premiership.

Tompkins has no right to defend as well as he does.
Whatever Gatland did to him in the Welsh training camps has really worked; he’s getting better and better.

I forgot to mention Hartley and Parton, both of whom were exceptional. Other than the chiefs game, I've been hugely impressed by Parton, and he looks exactly like our sort of player. I've been waiting to see Hartley in between the likes of Faz and Nick and he seemed to fit perfectly, and barely put a foot wrong. But Gonzalez was on another level. If he continues to impress like this, I have no clue what our first choice back-row is. Ben and Andy are nailed on IMO. But choose one of Big Theo, Billy, Tom, Big Nick and JMG for the other slot.

So proud of everyone, especially Tompkins, Lozowski and Hartley. All 3 youngish lads who've stepped into a large whole to fill after Barritt, 'Bish bash' Marcelo Bosch and Joel Tompkins retired and have formed a fabulous centre partnership.

Not wishing to be a wonk about it but Joel Tompkins doesn't belong in the same postal code as Barritt and Bosch let alone the same sentence. Fairly rubbish player for Sarries and fairly rubbish bloke.

For me the surprise package was Parton playing on the wing, real pace and good defence. I hope the club keep him in that position as his performance was way better than any I have watched him play at full back.
If that is the case, with Alex Goode playing so well at full back not sure who will be his understudy looking forward especially as it is rumoured Daly will be heading to France

Didn’t Daly just sign a new deal? That would be a colossal error if we’ve let Max go only for Daly to go as well.

TK both George and Daly signed new contracts at the end of last season I think.
Who knows for how long but if Dalys is only for a season it would make Goodes 2 year contract make much more sense.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Not wishing to be a wonk about it but Joel Tompkins doesn't belong in the same postal code as Barritt and Bosch let alone the same sentence. Fairly rubbish player for Sarries and fairly rubbish bloke.

Did you hear my interview with him? Leaving aside his abilities as a Rugby player you will have heard his openess about the incident which has probably influenced you to doubt his character, the causes of it, what he did to address the shame he lives with about it, and what he does to help others not to fall into the same trap. If you heard it all and still hold that opinion I'd be puzzled.

Having spent a good deal of time talking to him, both recorded and not, I came away with huge admiration for him as a "bloke". After all, anyone who retires from Rugby and turns up to work for the fire service still with a black eye from their last match because they want "to be of service" can't be all bad.

I'd also say my memory of his games for Sarries differs although it's clear Barritt and Bosch were way more successful. It would have been interesting if Joel T had not made what he considers to have been one of the greatest mistakes of his life in leaving Saracens to see if he might have had the chance to prove himself more in Union (although having worked his way through alchohol and injury he did finish with a great career in League).

He agreed to the only interview he has done since "the incident" being for the Fezcast because of his love for Saracens, which also shone through in the interview. As I say: I liked him, especially when he gave me a load more time than I deserved having made a schoolboy error with the recording. Not many would have been so patient.

Who knows what would had happened if he'd stayed? I still think it is silly to even vaguely compare him to Barritt and Bosch based on what he did at Sarries.

No I haven't listened to it Duncan but you make a very valid point about the capacity for change.
Yes I judged him on that incident but it only reinforced my view having met him in person many years ago when he was equally unpleasant. Maybe he was struggling with his issues then? maybe in vino veritas?
If he's turned things around more power to him. If he's trying to help others, even more so.

Quote:

OldMarovian
One other thing about the game. "Simple" skills executed well.

While I agree with OM's post I get extremely irritated by some commentators describing Saracens as excelling at the parts of the game which don't require skill (unbelievably, i have heard Haskell pushing this line). I think they mean work rate, working for each other etc. I think Ms Thomas tried it on for size in her commentary this last weekend (but I could be confusing her with David Flatman).

If it is that simple why doesn't everybody do it; after all this is the 15th season where they have had every opportunity to understand what is involved.

Agree Alan.
I think there are two different things as you say.
There is the "stuff that no-one sees" which isn't about ability but is about work-rate and often commitment. That's getting off the floor, getting back into the defensive line, chasing kicks or attempting charge downs. I think that is something the club has long prided themselves on. That that is still a "work-on" for so many clubs, or at least numerous players, is surprising.
The other is the "simple" skills (and I did caption them for a reason)
These are things you'd think any person being paid to play rugby should be comfortable with; running a support line, putting a pass in front of a player to run onto, etc and yet, as you say, they are also not as common or maybe as simple as you'd think.

Passing accurately when at speed or under severe pressure is certainly not a simple skill.

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
Passing accurately when at speed or under severe pressure is certainly not a simple skill.

Absolutely. And that is why I so much enjoyed Alex Goode's intervention for Tom Parton's try. He took the ball behind himself and on his shoulder, brought it round and passed what BOD described as 'a worldie' across to Tom as he was falling from being tackled.

Those instants are why we watch I think - the moments when. those of us who have played the game see something which we know we could never do or get anywhere near to doing.

I will never forget that moment, and it will live in the memory with so many others including Leinster 2019 in Newcastle with Alex's 'take and give' of Farrell's pass to Maitland - without even touching the ball -but which fixed the defence for Sean to score and bring the score back level (with OF's touchline conversion).

True magic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:22:14:43:30 by AlanE2.