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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:10:19:01:03 by Darraghgirl.

“First a word about our wonderful Captain Owen Farrell. Here at Sarries we have watched him develop from an incredibly talented and composed young man who at just 19 steered a team of experienced internationals to our first ever Premiership title, to one of the most dedicated, most driven and simply one of the best rugby players I have ever seen. Here at Sarries we know the effect he has on our team. His very presence lifts them. Sometimes it seems like he physically carries the side on his shoulders. His will to succeed rubs off on those around him. Who can forget the 2019 final against Exeter where with 20 minutes left he just decided we weren’t going to lose a game we hadn’t really competed in and somehow the whole team raised their game and we all know what happened! When the rugby world was against us and we were relegated he was one of the first to pledge his allegiance to Saracens and most of his fellow internationals followed him. Had he made a different choice, the team we love and support may not be here now. We owe him a lot so on Saturday, assuming he plays, lets show him how much we love and value him.“

Perfectly put. Deserves restating.

+1
If one really thinks about the time since the club found out it would be relegated (announced the night before a ERCC game if I remember correctly) the whole club has been through the wringer.
It must be hard for the whole squad, coaches and extended family but maybe especially for those in leadership rolls doing their best to hold things together and reassure others whilst dealing with their own feelings.
Whatever his future holds I wish the best for him and look forward to the chance to give him a cheer this weekend.
My feeling is outside his own family he could have few better than the Sarries "family" and I am sure they'll look after him just as I am sure he has done so for others.

Hopefully the games a good one and we can enjoy the way Farrell and the team are allowed to play when given license by McCall and Co.

Please feel free to give Owen a rest this weekend !

1 Tom West

2 Theo Dan

3 Alec Clarey

4 Maro Itoje (c)

5 Theo McFarland

6 Juan Martin Gonzalez

7 Andy Christie

8 Billy Vunipola

9 Ivan van Zyl

10 Manu Vunipola

11 Tom Parton

12 Nick Tompkins

13 Lucio Cinti

14 Sean Maitland

15 Alex Goode

Replacements:

16 Jamie George

17 Mako Vunipola

18 Christian Judge

19 Hugh Tizard

20 Toby Knight

21 Aled Davies

22 Olly Hartley

23 Alex Lewington

Players Unavailable:

Alex Lozowski, Ben Earl, Callum Hunter-Hill, Elliot Daly (Post RWC Rest), Josh Hallett, Marco Riccioni, Nick Isiekwe, Ollie Hoskins, Owen Farrell, Ralph Adams-Hale, Rotimi Segun, Tom Willis, Tom Woolstencroft.

Players unavailable is not far off a full team:

1. Ralph Adams-Hale
2. Tom Woolstencroft
3. Marco Riccioni / Ollie Hoskins
4. Callum Hunter-Hill
5. Nick Isiekwe
6.
7. Ben Earl
8. Tom Willis
9.
10. Owen Farrell
11.
12. Josh Hallett
13. Alex Lozowski
14. Rotimi Segun
15. Elliot Daly

Saints: Furbank (c); Seabrook, Freeman, Dingwall, Sleightholme; F Smith, James; E Waller, S Matavesi, Davison; Munga, Coles; Lawes, Pearson, Graham.

Replacements: Langdon, A Waller, Millar Mills, Mayanavanua, Scott-Young, Mitchell, Litchfield, Hendy.

You can take the man out of Yorkshire but you can't take Yorkshire out of the man.

Opportunity to go top tomorrow following the Quins/Sale result tonight

I wonder why Eroni not mentioned in squad or absentees - perhaps he is on post-RWC rest and they forgot to add him on to the list? We could have done with him starting tomorrow as our very own ‘bomb squad’ have been excellent and all 3 deserve a chance to start.

Hopefully Manu can steer the ship with a first choice 8/9/12 either side of him. Interesting Maro is skip, wonder if Mr Borthwick has had a word?!

Saints side looks good and could be a difficult game, but let’s hope we can get a win and end this set of prem matches top having been rock bottom after 2 games! Go Sarries!

Quote:

Strangelove
I wonder why Eroni not mentioned in squad or absentees

Unfortunately mentioned elsewhere strangelove. Injured and expected to be out for a while, Riccioni too which is a huge blow. Clarey is good and hopefully Hoskins will be available soon to complement West. Otherwise we're looking fairly bare-bones in the prop department.

Fuming about the 4:30 kick off!

I too would have preferred a 3pm start but the 4.30pm start clearly allows TNT to show 2 games on TV and I am sure that the club appreciate the extra money. With Europe you often get a 5.30pm start so they can get 3 games in one after the other.
The one advantage of the later start is I am hoping the lights/flames/fireworks just before kick off look better.
Given how cold it will be I shall be putting on numerous layers this afternoon!
Here’s to a win and top spot this evening!!

Now A10 at a standstill so I’m going to be late

Given up. Gutted. Enjoy the game all.

Has kick-off been delayed?

It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!

No, kicked off at 4.30

HT 0-6

Well that was a fairly dismal match. Still, LBP moves us closer to the top, though we drop 2 places





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:02:18:23:48 by Sarriebone.

We really need a competent #10 when Faz isn’t playing. Northampton defence was very strong but oh so easy to defend against. Lewington try was the first time in the match that Saints were left guessing and that was with Goode at first receiver

I wonder how Manu would get on as a 13

Play Goode at 10. Not international standard but no offence i have yet to be convinced by Vunipola. Is he any good at 15? The extra space and time might suit him.

Fly half is such a critical position and reluctantly I also have to conclude that Manu is not top Premiership standard. It wasn’t his fault that we lost, as I thought we simply didn’t compete hard enough in the tackle and breakdown in the first half and whilst we upped the intensity in the 2nd half Saints scored two decent breakaway tries to keep their noses in front. With Farrell and Loz injured and Daly rested we were short of 10s and 15s so I can see why they chose Manu but I hope in future Farrelless weeks we use Alex at 10. We have a tough assignment away to Bulls next weekend.

I sometimes wonder if people watch the same game as me? Yet again we picked Manu at 10 then sideline him to play off 9 and bring in Goode as a second receiver.
Right up till the kick through Goode was not having a good day and the first try was created by a long Manu pass on one of the few times he got the ball.

Even if you disagree with that the reality is it was a flat performance and we seemed to lose faith when the ball wouldn't stick and went back to playing what felt like one up runners which Saints lapped up.

We failed to adapt or question Rileys decision to allow Saints to continually kill ball at the breakdown too. Fair play to them you do what the referee allows.

After the emotion of the last week it felt like a game like this was at least as likely as one where we turned up and put out a statement performance. Lots to learn from that and hopefully no one took knocks.

Starting front row did well. We seem very slow to learn lessons today maybe a reflection on the leadership on field?

Life goes on. Well done to Saints.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:02:19:02:26 by OldMarovian.

Also in Manu we have a highly competent 10 when Farrell isn't playing. What he isn't is either a 100 cap International and Lion or a miracle worker. He certainly could have steered Saints to their win as well as young Finn Smith did.

Seldom takes the ball to the line, usually chucks the ball to 12 early meaning we end up playing laterally. Limited variation to his game and tactical kicking was mediocre at best. Decent nudge to convert Lewingtons try and a nice pass to Parton but otherwise he isn’t for me. Lots of players having off games tonight and Saints appeared way more determined. We’ll be back

Sorry, I'm with OM this week, I thought Manu played well. I would say he actually attempts to break the line more than Owen, and although some of his kicking was wayward, as pointed out , he's not an England and Lions player.

Saints were just better than us today and from early on the outcome had a sense of inevitability about it.

Hartley, although he got forced into touch, at least provided a point of difference when he came on.

Mistake taking off Theo and Christie, we were left with only 2 real jumpers and paid the price at the end of the match.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Also in Manu we have a highly competent 10 when Farrell isn't playing. What he isn't is either a 100 cap International and Lion or a miracle worker. He certainly could have steered Saints to their win as well as young Finn Smith did.

Oh come on!

Manu really isn’t very good at all.

He was not the reason we lost, but he is not Fazs successor in any shape or form

According to the BBC, Alex Mitchell is going to replace Farrell in the 6N…..quality reporting from the Beeb as usual !

Two hours later, someone obviously caught up and changed the report !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:02:22:28:43 by NGSB.

Today is not the day to be singling out one person for the loss, this was on the team... The points may well be valid but Europe will be interesting to see a reaction

Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

Manu isn't solid enough in tackle for FB. Didn't Loz play 10 when he first joined?

Worryingly I thought Maro, Nick T and Jamie looked as tired as they probably ought to be after a long stretch of games. Consider the next 4 aways are the Bulls at altitude, Sale with a point to prove, resurgent Leicester and Bordeaux who now have most of the France back line.
Whether it was the noise around Faz, minds wandering to the trip to South Africa who knows but we did not look on it at all.
Fair play to Saints who were fantastic and worthy winners.

To be fair I thought Saints were excellent.

Thanks by the way. Thats the strongest Saints defensive performance we have put in since... 2014?

We are trying to not top the trys conceded chart for a change and it's going better than i expected.

The BBCs reporting is a joke. If.i didn't know better i would think it was AI.

Some exceptional defence from saints and they were very very good for their win.

We never seemed to fire many shots of our own, until the late tries, so a sneaky win would've been pretty undeserved. Individually, I thought little Theo was excellent, to the point that we suffered when Jamie came on. Hartley impressed again when he came on.

As for the 10 conversation, while I don't think Manu is the answer, I think Alex has had a fairly poor season, save the Quins game, and we've looked just as poor when he's either started at Fly Half, or like today when he seems to shepherd Manu again. We're used to exceptional leadership and decision making with Faz, and that is always going to be lacking with whoever replaces him, but the organisation in our backline today was shockingly poor. Almost every single play the wrong pass was picked, or dummy lines were run only to make the pass too slowly. Our biggest gains seemed to be made when someone like Hartley ran straight rather than entertain these slick, but ultimately unrewarding handling moves.

I refuse to blame the loss on an individual performance, such as Manu. But... I do think we'd have won today with Faz's leadership and control. And I'd have said the same thing against Bath too.

Not a fan of Manu, I do wonder who Saracens consider to be the heir apparent to Farrell.
To me, a lot of our problems today seemed to stem from lack of leadership. For me Maro was not a captain today. And although much is said about having leaders all over the pitch, the only ones obvious to me were Alex Goode, and Jamie George when he came on. To be fair, I can think of more who are on the sick/rested list than were on the team sheet today.
Perhaps it was just one change of personnel too many.

I thought Saints defence down the middle was exceptional, we really didnt move the ball wide fast enough except in the late 2nd half when energy/urgency kicked in. Manu made the most important kick of the try to give us a chance but we didnt take it, but great kick. Was surprised we changed the whole front row 46 minutes in, ye no great impact, no bomb squad move for sure. Onward we go to more tougher matches before Xmas, but if we can’t raise the energy to late 2nd half levels we will lose. First half we just kicked it away, i counted an 8 kick tennis match, so pointless . We are best moving the ball, fast ricks and getting it round the defence not through it.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Also in Manu we have a highly competent 10 when Farrell isn't playing. What he isn't is either a 100 cap International and Lion or a miracle worker. He certainly could have steered Saints to their win as well as young Finn Smith did.

There were far more issues at play than just Manu today and it’s disappointing to read a lot of comments leaving the loss at his door after what has happened this week with Faz. There were plenty of things going wrong Manu couldn’t control- eg the lineout going to pot (when was the last time you saw a team lose 3 lineouts in one half with Jamie George and Maro on the field), the maul being completely negated (possibly early driving from Saints but even if they were, playing the ref well) and Saints slowing our breakdown effectively every time we made a bit of ground. Manu is also not to blame for Cinti dropping a simple pass right in front of the tryline for example.

However, we again seem incapable of playing our new style without Faz about to implement and fall back on a slightly outdated kicking game and that is worrying. There was zero attacking shape or invention, just one up runners constantly and we went again and again went to the boot. I think we had to wait until the 60th minute to see a pull back pass. I have no issue with kicking a lot when done effectively but it was reminiscent of the matches v Gloucester and Edinburgh a few years back. Either the kicks weren’t good enough or our chase wasn’t there for a lot of the match. This was typified towards the end when we had a 3 on 1 overlap from a turnover and we kicked it away.
To me it feels like we need to give Manu the keys to really lead the team, give him the proper responsibility to take kick offs, kick to touch and run the line. Yes, Goode should be a second playmaker as always but Manu should be in charge. We’ve seen he can run an attack, look at Saints away last year when we had 14 men.

Final word on Saints- the best defensive display against us since they gave us a fright in the 2016 Euro quarter final. I’m finally starting to see why Eddie Jones was picking George Furbank consistently (say what you want about Eddie Jones, the man can spot young talent), Smith has got an edge about his game now which is reminiscent of another bloke we’re fairly familiar with and I don’t know how Lawes is still performing to this level seemingly held together by sports tape.

Quote:

TommyKentish

Quote:

OldMarovian
Also in Manu we have a highly competent 10 when Farrell isn't playing. What he isn't is either a 100 cap International and Lion or a miracle worker. He certainly could have steered Saints to their win as well as young Finn Smith did.

There were far more issues at play than just Manu today and it’s disappointing to read a lot of comments leaving the loss at his door after what has happened this week with Faz. There were plenty of things going wrong Manu couldn’t control- eg the lineout going to pot (when was the last time you saw a team lose 3 lineouts in one half with Jamie George and Maro on the field), the maul being completely negated (possibly early driving from Saints but even if they were, playing the ref well) and Saints slowing our breakdown effectively every time we made a bit of ground. Manu is also not to blame for Cinti dropping a simple pass right in front of the tryline for example.

However, we again seem incapable of playing our new style without Faz about to implement and fall back on a slightly outdated kicking game and that is worrying. There was zero attacking shape or invention, just one up runners constantly and we went again and again went to the boot. I think we had to wait until the 60th minute to see a pull back pass. I have no issue with kicking a lot when done effectively but it was reminiscent of the matches v Gloucester and Edinburgh a few years back. Either the kicks weren’t good enough or our chase wasn’t there for a lot of the match. This was typified towards the end when we had a 3 on 1 overlap from a turnover and we kicked it away.
To me it feels like we need to give Manu the keys to really lead the team, give him the proper responsibility to take kick offs, kick to touch and run the line. Yes, Goode should be a second playmaker as always but Manu should be in charge. We’ve seen he can run an attack, look at Saints away last year when we had 14 men.

Final word on Saints- the best defensive display against us since they gave us a fright in the 2016 Euro quarter final. I’m finally starting to see why Eddie Jones was picking George Furbank consistently (say what you want about Eddie Jones, the man can spot young talent), Smith has got an edge about his game now which is reminiscent of another bloke we’re fairly familiar with and I don’t know how Lawes is still performing to this level seemingly held together by sports tape.

Given that we are the only Premiership team to consistently have half the squad out injured, when we do rest players we do look awfully thin. The two props, Cinti and Manu aren't Premiership (starting) standard, Goode, Maro and Maitland couldn't be ar*ed and Tompkins looked very tired and leggy.

As soon as the two teams were announced on Friday only one team was winning that game (although with an impartial competent referee it may still have been in the balance). We've clearly prioritised Stormers next week so it remains to be seen if that plan works. But with the cost of season tickets as they are throwing home games doesn't sit that comfortably with me.

Excellent post TK and I agree with pretty much all of it.
I do wonder sometimes if people (including me) see the games we want to see rather than the game that was played.
I knew as soon as we lost where some would lay the blame and yet watching it back last night there's Manu taking on the line and making metres, there he is again standing up in defence against Saints forwards. I agree 100% it's time to give him control OR pick an alternative at 10. Youre right to mention that Goodes own games there have been mixed.

We seem to lose heart/revert to the kicking game quite quickly when the passing game doesn't stick initially, the final loss against Tigers would be the ultimate example but we are so stacked with talent that seems minimised by that style of play that you just end up with games like last nights where it feels like we barely fired a shot.
Saints defence was brilliant but both we and Ridley made it so easy for them. When a team defends like they did with heart and commitment then a series of one up runners if anything feeds the beast. Different shapes and running angles and moving the ball are needed.

In some ways we maybe saw both the good and the bad of having a character as influential as Farrell in the team. He's a big loss when not there, which isn't to talk down the rest of Sarries very talented team just to acknowledge the difference he makes. I also think Lozo is a huge loss and Tompkins needs a proper break.

We have a cracking squad but outside issues and injuries have hit it quite hard. I know it's not the approach the team will take but I just don't care about Europe. Give the players who need it a break. In the current situation I don't think we have the squad to fight on two fronts. Let's give ourselves the best chance to do well in the Premiership.

The tiny glimmer of hope is IMO Saints played as well, defensively, as I have ever seen them. Sarries definitely didn't play as they can and yet when they played with a bit of width and invention opened Saints up. In the end it was still a game that could have swung in the last minutes although that would have been robbery!
Well done Saints. Regroup Sarries.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:03:07:11:55 by OldMarovian.

I felt the starting front row did well TOKS. Ridley rewarding Saints for wheeling when West was burying their TH was especially frustrating IMO but they held up well. Appreciate your point is between the gun starting team and those who played but that's the reality of injuries and squad balance I guess.
Not sure about faulting the commitment so much as application?

Quote:

OldMarovian
Excellent post TK and I agree with pretty much all of it.
I do wonder sometimes if people (including me) see the games we want to see rather than the game that was played.
I knew as soon as we lost where some would lay the blame and yet watching it back last night there's Manu taking on the line and making metres, there he is again standing up in defence against Saints forwards. I agree 100% it's time to give him control OR pick an alternative at 10. Youre right to mention that Goodes own games there have been mixed.

We seem to lose heart/revert to the kicking game quite quickly when the passing game doesn't stick initially, the final loss against Tigers would be the ultimate example but we are so stacked with talent that seems minimised by that style of play that you just end up with games like last nights where it feels like we barely fired a shot.
Saints defence was brilliant but both we and Ridley made it so easy for them. When a team defends like they did with heart and commitment then a series of one up runners if anything feeds the beast. Different shapes and running angles and moving the ball are needed.

In some ways we maybe saw both the good and the bad of having a character as influential as Farrell in the team. He's a big loss when not there, which isn't to talk down the rest of Sarries very talented team just to acknowledge the difference he makes. I also think Lozo is a huge loss and Tompkins needs a proper break.

We have a cracking squad but outside issues and injuries have hit it quite hard. I know it's not the approach the team will take but I just don't care about Europe. Give the players who need it a break. In the current situation I don't think we have the squad to fight on two fronts. Let's give ourselves the best chance to do well in the Premiership.

The tiny glimmer of hope is IMO Saints played as well, defensively, as I have ever seen them. Sarries definitely didn't play as they can and yet when they played with a bit of width and invention opened Saints up. In the end it was still a game that could have swung in the last minutes although that would have been robbery!
Well done Saints. Regroup Sarries.

The other glimmer is the amount of talent to come back, not the least our best attacking weapons in Faz, Daly and Earl.

On an early evening when, both ball in hand and in the maul, we came up against a superb defence, one young man came on and seemed to find a way to cut through it. Well done Olly Hartley (did I spell that right sir? 😜)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:03:07:40:42 by Duncan96.

Quote:

TOKS

Quote:

TommyKentish

Quote:

OldMarovian
Also in Manu we have a highly competent 10 when Farrell isn't playing. What he isn't is either a 100 cap International and Lion or a miracle worker. He certainly could have steered Saints to their win as well as young Finn Smith did.

There were far more issues at play than just Manu today and it’s disappointing to read a lot of comments leaving the loss at his door after what has happened this week with Faz. There were plenty of things going wrong Manu couldn’t control- eg the lineout going to pot (when was the last time you saw a team lose 3 lineouts in one half with Jamie George and Maro on the field), the maul being completely negated (possibly early driving from Saints but even if they were, playing the ref well) and Saints slowing our breakdown effectively every time we made a bit of ground. Manu is also not to blame for Cinti dropping a simple pass right in front of the tryline for example.

However, we again seem incapable of playing our new style without Faz about to implement and fall back on a slightly outdated kicking game and that is worrying. There was zero attacking shape or invention, just one up runners constantly and we went again and again went to the boot. I think we had to wait until the 60th minute to see a pull back pass. I have no issue with kicking a lot when done effectively but it was reminiscent of the matches v Gloucester and Edinburgh a few years back. Either the kicks weren’t good enough or our chase wasn’t there for a lot of the match. This was typified towards the end when we had a 3 on 1 overlap from a turnover and we kicked it away.
To me it feels like we need to give Manu the keys to really lead the team, give him the proper responsibility to take kick offs, kick to touch and run the line. Yes, Goode should be a second playmaker as always but Manu should be in charge. We’ve seen he can run an attack, look at Saints away last year when we had 14 men.

Final word on Saints- the best defensive display against us since they gave us a fright in the 2016 Euro quarter final. I’m finally starting to see why Eddie Jones was picking George Furbank consistently (say what you want about Eddie Jones, the man can spot young talent), Smith has got an edge about his game now which is reminiscent of another bloke we’re fairly familiar with and I don’t know how Lawes is still performing to this level seemingly held together by sports tape.

Given that we are the only Premiership team to consistently have half the squad out injured, when we do rest players we do look awfully thin. The two props, Cinti and Manu aren't Premiership (starting) standard, Goode, Maro and Maitland couldn't be ar*ed and Tompkins looked very tired and leggy.

As soon as the two teams were announced on Friday only one team was winning that game (although with an impartial competent referee it may still have been in the balance). We've clearly prioritised Stormers next week so it remains to be seen if that plan works. But with the cost of season tickets as they are throwing home games doesn't sit that comfortably with me.

I think West and Cinti (particularly the latter given his test caps) are definitely that standard, they both need a few more minutes to integrate.

I don’t think anyone is “blaming” any one in particular for yesterday’s really disappointing performance.

However, it’s perfectly fair to point out that when Farrell isnt playing we definitely don’t have confidence in the replacement 10 (Manu or Goode) to do much other than belt it down field. If Faz is injured for a big game at the end of the season we’re going to struggle.

Someone needs to have a proper look at our scrum too. Doesn’t matter who plays, or what team we’re playing, we’re going backwards and conceding penalties.

For me, Andy stood out as one of our better players and was always looking for action. I, too am not convinced with Maro as skipper, I think a young captain like Ben (when available) and Andy should be given a shot when Faz is unavailable.

All credit to Saints, a deserved win and a LBP is the best we could’ve hoped for.

Considering we were rock bottom and nought from two I think we’ve done well to be two points off top after eight games, although it is very congested in the top 6. Sale away is a must win game post Champions Cup to keep the pressure on.

Has Maro ever lost to Northampton before ?

A large part of the analysis should be that Saints played very well indeed. Their defence was exceptional and they took their chances, while we didn't.

I was watching on TNT and for long passages of play we were attacking well but then got turned over by Saints players doing something good (or not spotted by the ref). The kicking worked well on the whole at forcing Saints errors.

I'd rather have Manu at 10 than Alex, but he plays differently to Owen and Alex, as he is prepared to take the ball into contact much more. Which I seem to remember Owen being criticised for not doing ...

Lawes would have been my Player of the Match even if we had sneaked the winning try 10 minutes from the end.

Successful hills are here to stay
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🌻🌻🌻

Quote:

Duckonstilts
Play Goode at 10. Not international standard but no offence i have yet to be convinced by Vunipola. Is he any good at 15? The extra space and time might suit him.

Should bring back Los, on the previous occasions he has played there has outperformed Goode

I don’t think we’ll be seeing Loz for a while, possibly not until next season.

I only saw the game on TV rather than at the Stobex , but it seems to me we lost because Saints were exceptional in defence and a bit lucky with two breakaway tries rather than us being particularly bad …
I also thought Manu was ok , but will only get better if given a decent run of games , which never seems to happen…

[quote OldMarovian]I felt the starting front row did well TOKS. Ridley rewarding Saints for wheeling when West was burying their TH was especially frustrating IMO but they held up well. Appreciate your point is between the gun starting team and those who played but that's the reality of injuries and squad balance I guess.
Not sure about faulting the commitment so much as application?[/quote

Quite right, OM, and thanks for bringing some clarity and sanity to my mini rant! All the players are trying their hardest in spite of my ill-conceived comments.

Having re-watched the game there are two far bigger factors at play. Firstly the "Ridley Effect". There are just so many incorrect decisions, especially around the scrum and the ruck, that sometimes you are on the right end of it, and sometimes the wrong one. Yesterday we were much in the deficit column. That probably distorted the result in much the same way as it denied Falcons a first win of the season against Exeter the week before.

Secondly, as the TNT guys were at pains several times to point out, we are missing effectively an entire first team for various reasons. Get something vaguely like that team on the pitch and we don't lose yesterday's game or indeed the one earlier in the season against Bath.

The ref definitely made mistakes yesterday but if you check again you will see he basically ignored break down offences for both teams in the first half. He missed knock ons by both teams and scrums are always a lottery. But when you have 6 blokes all cheating at the same time sometimes you just don't get a fair result.

Honestly you played well. It was a close game and next week will probably be different.

Of course you would be better with Farrell, he is a top international for a reason.

From my seat in the stands, ref had zero impact on the game. Saints deserved the win and frankly looked fairly comfortable for most of the game.
McCalls comments post game were right - there’s an inconsistency in our approach this season. We seem to approach games without Farrell, Daly, Earl etc with a lack of intent. Almost like we’re trying absorb pressure and burgle a win rather than asserting ourselves.
Going to be tough next premiership game away at Sale; and then we’re halfway through the season. I feel we’re in a scrap for top 2 this year, which might impact upon our European ambitions.

Quote:

Duckonstilts
The ref definitely made mistakes yesterday but if you check again you will see he basically ignored break down offences for both teams in the first half. He missed knock ons by both teams and scrums are always a lottery. But when you have 6 blokes all cheating at the same time sometimes you just don't get a fair result.
Honestly you played well. It was a close game and next week will probably be different.

Of course you would be better with Farrell, he is a top international for a reason.

Good post, DonS, and no one should hide behind "it's the referee's fault", especially not at the moment. The team who wins is the one who scores the most points which often involves who manages the referee better. I thought that Courtney had Ridley firmly in his pocket yesterday and only took him out when the teams were safely back in the changing-room!!

Agree with TOKS that post is spot on Duckonstilts.
Scrum is often a bit of a lottery. Breakdown I felt Ridley let a lot go and Saints benefitted from that because they played to what he'd allow. That is very much to Saints credit. That you have to " play the ref" is news to no one and Sarries just didn't adapt. Unlike wolfpack I think it made a huge impact in breaking up Sarries attack.

The team on the day is the team on the day. We could be in a final and be missing many from our gun team. We could lose our England starting hooker and have to play an Academy player for almost 80!!
The coaches challenge is to prepare those in the wider squad to step up and become great players whether that's squad or International, I belive most will, given a chance and a little time.
Some luck with injuries would be great though!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:03:17:27:08 by OldMarovian.

Quote:

TOKS
...which often involves who manages the referee better. I thought that Courtney had Ridley firmly in his pocket yesterday and only took him out when the teams were safely back in the changing-room!!

I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't see Maro speak to the ref once yesterday. Or call in the players for a chat. Of course I could have missed it.

Maro had a couple of chats with the ref but his captaincy style is more Robshaw than Johnno!

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Quote:

AP
Maro had a couple of chats with the ref but his captaincy style is more Robshaw than Johnno!

Very few are able to translate being a great player into being a great captain because it's just such a different skill-set. And when you have a captain of the quality of Brad for many years it is inevitably a very difficult act to follow.

I think most Sarries supporters would say Farrell is a good captain but also a work in progress. Given he's half a decade? in as club and International captain that illustrates how tough it is.
As AP says there are also different sorts of leadership.
Lawes is one of my favourite players ever and is a great "leads by example" captain. He is however not great at getting his point across to the referee and is too passive in questioning how the opposition are allowed to play. Not an issue when you're winning but a huge one when you aren't.
No idea what sort of captain Mark is or could be.
More worrying to me was George is exactly the sort of captain I think we need and yet he struggled to have an impact on the matters ge pointed out on comes when he came on.

OM, i think Lawes can get away captaining at international level because Refs tend to be better and more willing to talk things through. At club level its a different thing all together, Ludlem has the same problem. We have to go back as far as Dylan in my view to when Saints had a captain who could mostly manage refs in the league and like Owen he didn't always get it right.

Its a tough skill. One that Ireland and New Zealand are the best in the world at.

I personally think our best option will be Dingwall but we have always favoured forwards. For you it's clear Maro is not a permanent solution, the trick is looking at the 23/24 year olds and guessing who will be ready in a few years.

I personally think Jamie is a great captaincy choice. He knows his stuff, is a clear leader and most importantly he invariably talks to the ref with respect. Best to think of the ref as your Form Teacher/Master and then you are more likely to build a relationship and at the margins have some influence.

As an outsider I think JG would make a great Captain, the only issue is that Hookers often don’t go the 80, albeit Jamie does more than other hookers.
I would seriously think of him as the 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 captain in OFs absence but that doesn’t help with the evolution of a position 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 needs to develop players in!

I think the next “ long term “ captain at Sarries will be Ben Earl , and not just because he is an OT like me ! JG is probably the best short term option , but then he is the same age as Faz ….

JG gives you the same problem as OF as you say, even if he probably would be very good.

Earl seems a strong shout.