Quins v Saracens PLEASE POST ALL MATCH-RELATED CONTENT HERE
JMG tries a charge down
By saracensfan62
October 10 2024
This weekend sees old rivals Harlequins and Saracens face off in the London derby for the London bragging rights.
This weekend, the derby weekend (well as far as Sale v Newcastle can be classed as a derby…) will hopefully bring great rugby, great crowds and great atmospheres, however while this fixture perhaps doesn’t have the same history as Bath vs Gloucester or Leicester v Northampton, Harlequins v Saracens still brings a lot of emotion and pride to the surface. It is, after all, the London derby match. A grudge match of huge significance for both teams. In recent times, the games have been dominated almost exclusively by Saracens. Out of the last 10 games, Saracens have won the last 9 with the most resounding out of those coming in March at the Showdown 4 with that 52-7 thumping victory. In fact, its been well over 4 years since Harlequins tasted victory in this fixture, with their last win coming in January 2020 in that fateful 2019-20 season. For reference, Gabriel Ibitoye, now a Bristol flyer and Niki Goneva were playing for Quins and Wiggy was still our first choice 9. That seems like another era compared to now.
Since that game in 2020, only 4 of the 23 who played then are still at Saracens – Nick Isiekwe, Alex Lozowski, Roti Segun and Andy Onyeama-Christie. Undoubtedly these are Saracens stalwarts who have been with us through thick and thin and are more needed now than ever before. We can, however, rest assured that Mark McCall and his team have a superb range of experienced and youthful players alike who can make up this weekend’s team. Notable names to look out for are: Tobias Elliott, who has been my young player of the season thus far and rather burst onto the scene, Rhys Carre, again after his long anticipated return to Saracens has been quite outstanding both in the scrum and around the field in the loose (that enormous grin as he was sprinting down the wing vs Exeter last weekend will stick with me forever) and Andy Onyeama-Christie who has this knack of seemingly getting better with every game he plays in and I would be amazed if he isn’t at least on the bench for Scotland this autumn.
The weather, as usual, I suspect will determine how this match will be played. According to the BBC, the conditions are set to be sunny with gentle wind and a top temperature of 12 degrees. Perfect for free-flowing rugby to be played. It is Harlequins, after all. Undoubtedly this will suit the so-called ‘Entertainers’ more than us however we’ve already seen a change in recent years that Saracens have undergone so whilst we may not be able to match Harlequins style of rugby in terms of attack, we still have that option of returning to the Wolfpack style of ‘stick-it-up-your-jumper’ rugby and incredible defence and grit that would make even Shaun Edwards proud.
At the time of me writing this article, the teams are yet to be announced however I suspect Harlequins will be starting a very similar team to their narrow loss away to Northampton last week. We will likely be facing an ex-Saracen in the form of Titi Lamositele and the same is true for Harlequins – Hugh Tizard. I cannot say all the amazing things about Hugh Tizard, not only his incredible work rate and strength on the field but also how much he does off the field and interacting with fans. Harlequins have an extremely strong scrum with the likes of Fin Baxter, Jack Walker and the aforementioned Lamositele facing up to Carre, JG2 and Marco Riccioni. The battle of the second rows will be key – since Theo McFarland is absent due to his concussion and positive HIA result, I suspect we will see the Itoje/Tizard combination and Isiekwe off the bench to cause some lineout havoc against the enormous Irne Herbst and Stephan Lewies, Quins captain. The big matchups for me in this game are the back-rowers and also the half-backs. Will Evans v Ben Earl and Chandler Cunningham-South vs Tom Willis could be the deciding part not only for the victor of this derby but also who gets the nod for England this autumn in the eagerly-anticipated games against New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Japan. There is no doubt that Marcus Smith v Fergus Burke will also be a fabulous contest. Both have superb skills ball-in-hand and while Marcus I think offers more in the footwork department, Fergus is a stronger ball carrier and his awareness and ability to find space was demonstrated brilliantly both vs Exeter last weekend and Sale the weekend before. We have not yet experienced much of Burke’s kicking off the tee, with the sharp-shooter Alex Lozowski taking on the majority of the kicking duties. With his recent (and well-deserved I must say) call up to England in the absence of Henry Slade, I only hope England duties do not tire Loz out. Again, the old saying “In Mark McCall we trust” comes to mind. Ivan Van-Zyl and Danny Care are two very different 9’s in style but both lead their teams well and IvZ especially is one of the most underrated players in the league. Both the two teams have electric backlines with Cassius Cleaves, Nick David and Leigh Halfpenny the likely starters for Harlequins in the absence of Cadan Murley. Roti Segun, Tobias Elliott and Elliot Daly are the likely back 3 for Saracens. Halfpenny seems rejuvenated by his move to Harlequins, finding some great form and playing some of his best rugby again. His game knowledge and control at the back will be essential for Harlequins. Likewise, a similar figure for us can be found in Alex Goode who also just gets better with every season.
In their wisdom, Premiership rugby have given us the following officials:
Referee: Christophe Ridley
Assistant Referees: Tom Foley & Simon Harding
TMO: Dean Richards
A good team of officials who will hopefully manage the game well. Let’s hope for an exciting game on Sunday and see you all at the Stoop.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:21:20:52:33 by Darraghgirl.
1 Rhys Carre
2 Jamie George
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Maro Itoje (c)
5 Nick Isiekwe
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez
7 Andy Onyeama-Christie
8 Ben Earl
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Fergus Burke
11 Elliot Daly
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Tobias Elliott
15 Alex Goode
Replacements:
16 Theo Dan
17 Eroni Mawi
18 Alec Clarey
19 Hugh Tizard
20 Tom Willis
21 Toby Knight
22 Gareth Simpson
23 Lucio Cinti
1. Fin Baxter (54)
2. Jack Walker (66)
3. Titi Lamositele (3)
4. Irne Herbst (50)
5. Stephan Lewies (73 – Captain)
6. Dino Lamb (96)
7. Jack Kenningham (52)
8. James Chisholm (151)
9. Will Porter (25)
10. Marcus Smith (163)
11. Cadan Murley (114)
12. Lennox Anyanwu (25)
13. Oscar Beard (58)
14. Nick David (52)
15. Leigh Halfpenny (2)
Impact Players:
16. Nathan Jibulu (16)
17. Joe Marler (283)
18. Dillon Lewis (20)
19. Joe Launchbury (22)
20. Chandler Cunningham-South (19)
21. Will Evans (93)
22. Danny Care (379)
23. Jarrod Evans (20)
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Don’t forget that Loz has played ten for England and his goal kicking is good. With Daly as well we are in good shape.
Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Quote:AP
Two first XVs there, no messing about.
Can't comment on Sarries but Quins are missing 3 starters.
BB
Terrible luck for the lad.
I expect it will get banned in rugby union as well. Horrible injury.
Terrible luck for Andy.
JMG off injured as well.
Can’t make breaks, can’t make yards, and the ball is painfully painfully slow. Van Zyl just can’t get the tempo right. Speed it up.
Quins look very comfortable. They’ve only had two attacks - scored one, and nearly scored a second.
Well played Quins, their defence has improved immensely and it won them the game. After the injury and then coming away with no points from concerted pressure we kinda knew it wasn’t going to be our day. We looked static like last season in attack. We looked better when Simpson came on and although Goode did nothing wrong at full back Daly is such an attacking threat from FB.
I am glad we got something out of the game at least, we were going to lose at some point and in theory it was a game we could’ve ended up winning. Hope JMG not out too long and a huge shoutout to big Tom, he was our MOTM with his go-forward and willingness to try and change the game. Well done Huge Tiz for scoring against his old club, he really has stepped up a gear this season.
A bad day at the office, that’s all it was and we are thinking of the OC (Andy).
Meant a lot to them, that win. You could see the players and crowd very much enjoying that they won a match v Sarries, at home at the final whistle.
Thoughts with Andy tonight - just want the guy to get a decent, injury free, run of games.
Quins were very worthy of the win. Think we lost some creativity today and they wanted that to make it so difficult. Have to say that was a real rugby game, everyone putting bodies on the line and nobody could fault the effort. Both teams attacked the breakdown and we came out the wrong side of it. I'm sure looking back we had opportunities to score more tries, but end of day Quins deserved it for their defence.
Van Zyl needs to up his tempo significantly and Spink can’t come into the centres soon enough.
I was surprised how easily they controlled our driving mauls, especially as we seemed to have developed a bit of a weapon there.
Couldn't fault the effort.
I was a little concerned to see Daly playing on the wing - so we have Tobias, and Roti obviously injured, is Daly really our number 3 winger?
McCall has said AOC has fracture-dislocated his ankle.
Having seen a replay it’s horrific!
Not sure if that distracted your players yesterday or Quins just wanted it more?
Don’t understand a selection of starting both Daly & Goode when you have Cinti on the bench?
Quote:TommyKentish
Two times he had a one on one and both times he kicked too early and Quins telegraphed it two easily.
Yes; and yesterday also saw the unwelcome return of the grubber as our main attacking ploy.
We need to find some way of fashioning line breaks, and need to stop relying on opposition errors or good bounces of the ball. For all our possession yesterday did we even make a proper line break? I can’t remember one.
Goodey was vey good yesterday but Daly is usually more effective at full back. I think the place for Goodey is on the bench now.
Brandon Jackson looked very good for Ampthill again on Saturday and solid under the high ball.
We just couldn’t get our maul right yesterday and it was disappointing we didn’t back ourselves late in the second half to go for it and missed a tricky kick instead.
The scrum achieved parity again, but I thought Carre looked knackered so presumably we’ll see some rotation next week?
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[x.com]I think we noted that some, if not all our players, and I'm sure the Quins players too were affected by such a serious injury happening.
However, I think we should also acknowledge that Christophe Ridley acted very quickly. And he too had to carry on in his job.
And the physios and other medical staff - I particularly noted that as Andy was carried off our lady physio (sorry, don't know her name or proper job title) went straight back to her position on the sideline and carried on with her job.
Quote:neiljk
Looks like a classic hip drop tackle which is banned in the NRL and NFL because of the level of danger.
I expect it will get banned in rugby union as well. Horrible injury.
I gave it 12 hours before I dared looking at it again. When I did I blanked out AOC with my hand and just looked at the tackle.
It is indeed a hip-drop tackle. To anyone that doesn't know what that is it's a tackle which occurs when a defender wraps up a ball carrier and rotates or swivels his hips, unweighting himself and dropping onto the ball carrier's legs during the tackle.
It's banned in the NRL and in the NFL where there is an obvious swivel.
Whilst you don't want to believe that a player wants to injure another player there really isn't any other outcome that can come from a perfectl;y executed one of these tackles. And this, sadly, was just that.
Something for the RFU/PRL to take a look at I think.
Quote:AP
I disagree that "Quins wanted it more". It's a dubious expression at best, and can you really point to Saracens players yesterday not giving everything?
I agree on the “wanted it more” phrase but I can absolutely understand if the lads were mentally not quite there after the injury. Riccioni’s reaction said it all.
JMG is also hurt.
All this talk of Jackson on the wing relax, you will see it soon in the PRC.
Remember we also had players away for England which also had a bearing in the lineup.
Agree with comments on Spink. Can’t come soon enough, feel like Tommo needs a break!
Quote:TOKSQuote:neiljk
Looks like a classic hip drop tackle which is banned in the NRL and NFL because of the level of danger.
I expect it will get banned in rugby union as well. Horrible injury.
I gave it 12 hours before I dared looking at it again. When I did I blanked out AOC with my hand and just looked at the tackle.
It is indeed a hip-drop tackle. To anyone that doesn't know what that is it's a tackle which occurs when a defender wraps up a ball carrier and rotates or swivels his hips, unweighting himself and dropping onto the ball carrier's legs during the tackle.
It's banned in the NRL and in the NFL where there is an obvious swivel.
Whilst you don't want to believe that a player wants to injure another player there really isn't any other outcome that can come from a perfectl;y executed one of these tackles. And this, sadly, was just that.
Something for the RFU/PRL to take a look at I think.
I agree. Awful for the player, I am sure no intent and the challenge was perfectly legal.
Equally it’s been banned in other sports as the mechanism of the tackle will cause bad injuries, as demonstrated yesterday.
In view of what others have said in this thread about the type of tackle involved in Andy’s incident (being illegal in other forms of rugby), and not having watched the Andy tackle since it was live, it seems odd that this would not be looked at further but the women’s incident was fully sanctioned in the game?
I’m sure someone who has seen both and with greater understanding of the dangerous tackle laws may be able to explain, it just seems difficult to explain the difference in treatment. Any ideas?
In the same way as twisting bodies out of rucks is dangerous a clarification is probably required to specify this is foul play.
Quote:neiljk
Not seen the Loughborough incident, but if you google it the rules in the NRL are pretty clear and it expressly prohibits dropping body weight onto the legs. That’s because if you drop your weight on a players legs in that way the chances of a serious injury are too high.
In the same way as twisting bodies out of rucks is dangerous a clarification is probably required to specify this is foul play.
Thanks. Obviously, Union needs to review its laws further seeing as they are looking to make the game safer for players. Just hope Andy can come back from this and it is not the career threatening injury some are suggesting. It’s gonna be a long road and we all hope to see you back next season.
Quote:neiljkQuote:TOKSQuote:neiljk
Looks like a classic hip drop tackle which is banned in the NRL and NFL because of the level of danger.
I expect it will get banned in rugby union as well. Horrible injury.
I gave it 12 hours before I dared looking at it again. When I did I blanked out AOC with my hand and just looked at the tackle.
It is indeed a hip-drop tackle. To anyone that doesn't know what that is it's a tackle which occurs when a defender wraps up a ball carrier and rotates or swivels his hips, unweighting himself and dropping onto the ball carrier's legs during the tackle.
It's banned in the NRL and in the NFL where there is an obvious swivel.
Whilst you don't want to believe that a player wants to injure another player there really isn't any other outcome that can come from a perfectl;y executed one of these tackles. And this, sadly, was just that.
Something for the RFU/PRL to take a look at I think.
I agree. Awful for the player, I am sure no intent and the challenge was perfectly legal.
Equally it’s been banned in other sports as the mechanism of the tackle will cause bad injuries, as demonstrated yesterday.
I would suggest that "not yet illegal" is probably a better form of words than "perfectly legal".
It would seem self-evident that having twisted the hips of the ball-carrier, and then pivoted around him, to then fall on legs that are now completely out of alignment with their "normal" position is a recipe for complete disaster.
I'm a keen follower of NFL and am constantly baffled by the "hits" they still allow. That they have banned this form of tackle really does speak volumes.
That Christie and Graham got injured at the weekend shouldn’t impact on the Officials decisions!
Also do not like the if you tackle too low punishment, Reffells knee hits the ground milliseconds before completing a legitimate with wrap tackle!
If you look at footage the tackler’s knee often touches the ground just before the tackle so you are setting a precedent and also going away from the Tackle low message!