EXETER v SARRIES please post match related content here

A very spirited first half from this young team, I cannot believe how bad Exeter have become

Scrappy first half. Very impressed with Brandon, getting up in the air a lot and tackling well. Ivan’s box kicking is mostly good today, but his delivery has me tearing hair out!

We’re much more competitive than expected especially in defence.

Our two wingers look good and Hartley has done ok.

It’s therefore a frustration how everyone’s first instinct is to kick. Louie Johnson has tried two cross field kicks - as Warburton said on commentary, they’re pre-call plays because there is no space for them or nothing to suggest it’s the right option. Please keep the ball in hand more.

Is Rafi still coming from Sale, that would be one hell of a signing if he could stay injury free. Rafi and then Bracken coming through would be amazing. It's a shame with van Z he looks a bit lost but we are fronting up which is great. The Centre we have looks a handful as well.

When you say "still coming"?...

Encouraging first half and I think IVZ has done a fair bit right as well and he is giving Louis a relatively easy ride at 10. Let’s see if they can keep the competition up for another 40

Quote:

#wolfpack1
We’re much more competitive than expected especially in defence.
Our two wingers look good and Hartley has done ok.

It’s therefore a frustration how everyone’s first instinct is to kick. Louie Johnson has tried two cross field kicks - as Warburton said on commentary, they’re pre-call plays because there is no space for them or nothing to suggest it’s the right option. Please keep the ball in hand more.

Louie stop kicking it!!!

Break from our 22.
Penalty advantage.
Exeter everywhere.

Why on earth are you punting that???

This commentator is not a Saracens fan is he - "A chorus of stampeding Devonian hooves trampling Saracens into the dirt"

And he keeps apologising for language I cannot hear!

That was in touch marginally!

This is all going @#$%& up now!

Quote:

Kevetty
This is all going @#$%& up now!

.
Capped by the red card

Wheels firmly off now.

This Exeter side aren’t exactly Toulouse . And yet they’ve scored 5 and counting. And we haven’t thrown a punch. Again. Our second try sums us up. Box kicking from just outside their 22 and hoping for the best.

Rubbish. Again.

Ex haven’t won with a bp since last may

Castres hadn’t won away in 12 years

Newcastle had won 1 game in 2 years


I’ll just leave those out there…

I’m sorry but in the coaches I don’t completely trust anymore.

We literally haven’t got a clue how to score.

Quite honestly the box kick on the oppositions 22 for our second try was a f terrible option

Quote:

Toga
This commentator is not a Saracens fan is he - "A chorus of stampeding Devonian hooves trampling Saracens into the dirt"

He couldn't have been any more obvious in his bias!

That second half was a shambles! VZL is just terrible. Why does his insist on taking so long?? We simply gave that away with so many missed tackles on the wide areas. So disappointing verging on angry. We could have won that being up at 65 mins.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:25:19:31:08 by Eurosarrie.

Every time, 60/65mins, replacements come on and we concede a couple of easy tries and all of a sudden we're out of it, so frustrating. We hadn't played well but up until then we were still right in it.

Writing a report now, bear with me, all.

Tempest really shouldn’t be reffing in the prem on that viewing.

Implosion from us again, silly mistakes compounded by a red card, familiar story this season. Also why do we suddenly decide to play ball in hand in the 75th min when it’s too late? Just like the Munster match. The coaches are smart enough to address this surely.

On the brighter side Michelow looked great, Hartley showed enough to be starting at 12 for me.

Even though they won Exeter looked pretty shocking at times and that with a largely unaffected side by England call ups. This was a far cry from the matches from 5 years ago.

Should be a fairly quick one to write, 3 words should cover it



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:25:19:36:17 by Sarriebone.

I find it extraordinary that we haven’t got a set move when we have a 5m penalty. Every time it’s just “ball carrier tap it and run” like we’re playing Under 13s. Every team has something to try except us. It is literally “Go on Theo / Eroni. Try you best and see what happens.”

I think it’s a bit of a microcosm of our whole game. As per the comments above, it really looks like we haven’t got a clue how to go about scoring. The moment we went more than one score behind that was it.

It’s such a shame because the majority of players in the squad are good players. I thought we recruited really well over the summer. Some of the young players (Tobias Elliot in particular but also Michelow who did really well today) look very very promising. But it just is really really far from working at the moment.

Quote:

wolfgangvonb77
Is Rafi still coming from Sale, that would be one hell of a signing if he could stay injury free. Rafi and then Bracken coming through would be amazing. It's a shame with van Z he looks a bit lost but we are fronting up which is great. The Centre we have looks a handful as well.

I heard he was going to Quins.
IVZ suits our kicking game, which today Exeter nullified by taking the tip backs. We needed to wise up by having a second chaser. There isn’t a marked increase in speed of ball when Simpson comes on.

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:25:20:02:12 by Supporting Saracens for over 50 years. .

Quote:

#wolfpack1
I find it extraordinary that we haven’t got a set move when we have a 5m penalty. Every time it’s just “ball carrier tap it and run” like we’re playing Under 13s. Every team has something to try except us. It is literally “Go on Theo / Eroni. Try you best and see what happens.”
I think it’s a bit of a microcosm of our whole game. As per the comments above, it really looks like we haven’t got a clue how to go about scoring. The moment we went more than one score behind that was it.

It’s such a shame because the majority of players in the squad are good players. I thought we recruited really well over the summer. Some of the young players (Tobias Elliot in particular but also Michelow who did really well today) look very very promising. But it just is really really far from working at the moment.

I’m sure we had some in the early part of the season, likewise lineout moves but we seem to have dried up on the creativity.

I thought Tempes did okay and was even handed. Rather hacked off with the TMO as it looked in touch! However, we did keep dropping the balls in good positions so we only have ourselves to blame. Not helped by losing the players to England training and the list of injuries !

Team is being failed by carp coaching and an out-dated game plan.

Quote:

PaulHerox
Team is being failed by carp coaching and an out-dated game plan.

Absolutely spot on

Quote:

Stonexjim

Quote:

PaulHerox
Team is being failed by carp coaching and an out-dated game plan.

Absolutely spot on

Fish and your double act notwithstanding, Mark is an excellent coach.

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Fairly pleased after first half in terms of being in front and some of the guys were standing up. Couple of sucker punches and that was it. I don’t know why IVZ is having a bad season, he was great during our winning season. What I don’t get is why we continue to make the same mistakes, same slow ball, and persist with playing out of form players - Charlie would not have done any worse and ball would’ve been quicker. Pleased with Mitch, James H, Brants, Tobias, Olly and Brandon chased hard.

It’s disappointing again, but saying that, we are still in the mix for top 4 come the restart - not sure how, though?!

I’ve just seen that Barnaby Merrett was playing for Ampthill vs Chinnor. Any reason why he couldn’t have been on our bench instead of Tompkins covering backrow?

Quote:

PaulHerox
Team is being failed by carp coaching and an out-dated game plan.

Agree on the gameplan. I think if you compare the Saints match on Friday to ours it really shows. They had as many absences as us (possibly not as concentrated in one position as ours) but they all train with a similar emphasis on skills and attack. They pushed Quins at the stoop right to the end. We have some insanely talented players and they need unleashing instead of following the game plan from years ago. It took someone with the force of character of Faz to convince them last time and we won a title because of it. Why we’ve decided to go back to the old way of thinking confuses me and there is no one in the squad who has the authority Faz did to sway the coaching team, so they need to come to this conclusion themselves. Yes we need to get our basics right and our defence strong but a) our defence isn’t strong at the moment and b) you need to score tries in this league to win now.

Quote:

TommyKentish

Quote:

PaulHerox
Team is being failed by carp coaching and an out-dated game plan.

Agree on the gameplan. I think if you compare the Saints match on Friday to ours it really shows. They had as many absences as us (possibly not as concentrated in one position as ours) but they all train with a similar emphasis on skills and attack. They pushed Quins at the stoop right to the end. We have some insanely talented players and they need unleashing instead of following the game plan from years ago. It took someone with the force of character of Faz to convince them last time and we won a title because of it. Why we’ve decided to go back to the old way of thinking confuses me and there is no one in the squad who has the authority Faz did to sway the coaching team, so they need to come to this conclusion themselves. Yes we need to get our basics right and our defence strong but a) our defence isn’t strong at the moment and b) you need to score tries in this league to win now.

+. 1 Agree entirely

I agree that we need to vary our attack more as we are far too predictable but given the inexperience of the team that we put out today against an Exeter XV playing at home and only really missing Henry Slade, I thought there were plenty of positives. Michelow who is only 20 certainly came of age today and in Tobias Elliott we have a star of the future. Also think Olly Hartley made a useful contribution and I would pick him ahead of Nick at 12 in our gun XV. The scrum and lineout went far better than I expected. I also thought the TMO was wrong in his decision about the Exeter player not touching the line, which was a game changing decision - 2 of the 3 angles seemed pretty clear that he did.
I hadn’t expected to get any points out of this game but actually felt disappointed at the end that we hadn’t.

I agree on the positives and the point around inexperience but this is a wider issue not isolated to this game or to inexperienced players, we’ve seen that in a number of matches this season.

Questions for our coaching team:

Why are we are we playing a game plan that doesn't suit the personnel we have?

Why do we kick away great possession especially on turn-over?
Why when we have overlaps do we so frequently put kicks through rather than back our players to go through the hands?

With predominantly lighter, quicker and more skilful backrow forwards why do we insist on playing a collision based game when we do finally retain possession?

What possible benefit is there of employing the "tactic" of slowing down possession from 9 at almost every ruck?

Why do we only seem to back ourselves to play ball in hand when we're so far behind that even if it goes well we rarely have a chance to get back into the game?

Why have we not continued to evolve our attack over the last four seasons or more accurately why haven't we backed the limited evolution there has been rather than returning to the mean of kick away possession, defend to victory?

Why have we failed to adapt to the obvious truth that if your defence is no longer your bedrock then you your attack needs to be able to win games?

It goes without saying that given access to the teams full XV/23 things are much rosier but even there we seem to be treading water rather than evolving. For me the frustration wouldn't be so strong if I felt we didn't have the players to challenge. Tight Head aside I think we have one of the best teams in the Premiership but coaching is making it considerably weaker than the sum of its parts.

The heart from the young boys was very pleasing, but it’s infuriating that we’ve learned nothing from the past few weeks. We had 1(?) attacking play. Our second try was from luck. And while creating chaos is a good tactic, it feels like that’s all we have… but then don’t have the counter attacking game to execute that.

As much as I hate saying it, if rumours are true, Quirke can’t come soon enough.

Please feel free to continue the discussion on the report page

I watched the Glos side today and the difference in how simply, quickly (and accurately) they were putting it through the hands compared to how we play now is marked. Even when we do put it through the hands it is slow, not in front of the receiver, often the receiver is standing still. Do we not have the basics to play this way? I would imagine if we get quick ball from the ruck/breakdown then we do have the talent there. For some reason we don’t do it, and I think most of that is down to game plan. We cannot carry on playing the way we do, we are going backwards.

We absolutely have the skills, you can see it at the end of the match and the end of the Munster match. Gloucester were awful last season. By all accounts Skivington has just given up trying to play his way and let the team attack their way because he has nothing to lose. It shouldn’t need to come to that for us we know IVZ can create fast ball, we saw it for a season. We know Burke can play attacking rugby, he came through the NZ system. Hartley, Spink at Wasps under Blackett. Tompkins and Loz for us a few seasons back too. The skills are there. They need to take the handbrake off. If we make mistakes fine because this is the season to do it.

There also seems to be a bit of a delusion around our defence as well.

“We pride ourselves on our defence” etc. “We showed great togetherness and spirit out there” etc.

Facts: only Newcastle have conceded more points this season. We’re one of 3 teams in the league (along with Newcastle and Exeter) with a negative points difference. We’ve conceded 45 tries this season (scoring only 40) - only Newcastle have conceded more.

Our defence is poor. We’re fairly easy to score against - especially seemingly in the last 20 mins of games. It’s the absolute worst of all worlds. We can’t stop other teams scoring, but then when we do concede we haven’t the ability to score ourselves to catch up.

Thank goodness for the 6N. I hope the coaches show a bit of humility and a bit of honesty and see it isn’t working and drastically change things. Or at least try to change things. I think that’s all we want.

Yes, while we are capable of good defence it is rarely for a full match. Even the first match of the season that was evident. It is understandable with Faz going, he was the defensive leader but someone needs to step up and keep those standard and concentration levels high. Maro is a different type of captain to Faz but so was Brad, difference was he had Faz backing him up, someone in the squad needs to stand demanding better on the pitch. It would be different if we were chucking in the youngsters but our first team is chock full of internationals and players in their prime barring Elliott on the wing.

A few years back if we were down in the first half i would always think, "the coaches will sort this out and we will come back well in the second half". A very worrying stat came out yesterday that confirmed we have the worst record in the prem for points conceded in the second half! Where is the spirit of defence being to foundation of our game?

Spoke to a good few of the players and staff after the game and they were livid about the head contact on Brantingham early in the second half that put him out of the game , the try awarded when a foot was clearly in touch and the harsh red for Wilson. The TMO and Tempest literally the only people in the ground who thought it a try.
Defensive effort on a different scale from last week and the set piece much better than expected after a couple of dodgy scrums at the start.
No idea why they never went after our lineout all game.
Our attack looks really short of confidence although great to see two excellent finishes from Tobias Elliot.

Tempest has been consistently inept for seasons and always seem one whistle away from a panic attack..
On the flipside, it looks like he made the most of Christmas and has continued eating too many pies throughout January.
(No offence intended to anyone of a nervous persuasion or anyone who enjoys a pie).

Agree comments re Tempest.

On the flip side, watching the Sale game Dickson had a really good game, talked to the players, didn’t panic, used his tmo wisely, didn’t have a strop like Tempest, got all the key decisions correct and done professionally - he has really improved as a ref since he first appeared. Fair play.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:26:20:30:56 by Strangelove.

Quote:

The Bard
Spoke to a good few of the players and staff after the game and they were livid about the head contact on Brantingham early in the second half that put him out of the game , the try awarded when a foot was clearly in touch and the harsh red for Wilson. The TMO and Tempest literally the only people in the ground who thought it a try.
Defensive effort on a different scale from last week and the set piece much better than expected after a couple of dodgy scrums at the start.
No idea why they never went after our lineout all game.
Our attack looks really short of confidence although great to see two excellent finishes from Tobias Elliot.

I thought Tempest had a poor game, missing high tackles on us, a clear as day yellow for Brown-Bampoe in the first half for offside when we were on their tryline and he missed multiple knock ons that had to be called by his assistants. The red for Wilson was fair though, no real mitigation, tacked arm etc. Wilson has been great the last month so it was a shame but I don’t think we can have any arguments against it.

The new ruck and maul sanctions is something that referees seem to have decided corporately not to enforce yet. And worse, the commentators seem to get it entirely wrong as well (there's no mention in the law of 'being a scrum half'). This needs some clear education for fans with clips etc. [passport.world.rugby] is semi clear:

"16.18: A player who is, or was part of the maul may not play an opponent near it (within 1m), and who is attempting to play the ball away. Sanction: Penalty"

So, nobody in the maul can attempt to tackle anybody within 1m of the maul who looks like or is trying to pass, right? Because that looks incredibly like what happened to us (and also, given the noted earlier slow delivery from the base seems to happen an awful lot against us!)

Now I think we can all see some massive holes here (how about a player who fakes to run, how about a player who does actually run then changes his mind, how about scrum halves who take a step or two as part of their passing motion, how about players who are just slow, who is actually part of the ruck or maul, did the player make the tackle roll away and become the guard, are their feet inside the line of the tackle or fractionally outside?). It's really helpful to know what they're looking for, (for instance, I think all keen fans now have a clear idea that 'hands on the floor first == no legal turnover') maybe I've missed this but in years past this was something that Wayne Barnes did a great job of doing going on BT Sports old rugby show and walking it through - then getting the clip onto social media to be shared when nitwits like me complain about the very difficult job all the refs do.

EDIT: So much an idiot that I didn't actually look at the presentation and FAQ on that page: [worldrugby.app.box.com] slide 6 is the clear one - yeah, basically the commentators, ref and TMO are just entirely wrong there and that should've been a penalty for playing the detached man who was within 1m.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:26:22:16:23 by nedrichards.

I don't think the referee made much difference to the outcome and the players and staff are not going to do themselves any favours by focussing on that. For the record I agreed with the ref that there was nothing clear about the foot in touch and would have been aggrieved if it was the other way round and we were denied a try. The fact is, Jackson had to do better there. Also, annoying as it is, and despite the fact that no real harm was done, there was head contact and no wrap so that was a red. As others have said, our issues are poor defence and a completely impotent attack. I also honestly can't understand why Johnson was started in such an important game. I appreciate that it was first prem start and I don't want to get on him too much but he was not great. Those cross field kick to no-one when we had turnover ball were just unbelievably frustrating. Watching us at the moment is not an enjoyable experience and I just can't understand what we are trying to do. These "tactics" are not going to suddenly start working. I am pretty much writing this season off so let's at least see if we can start playing some more adventurous rugby as I am getting fed up of throwing my hands up in the air in frustration every five minutes.

Both Burke and Tompkins were away with their countries for half the week so it was a good opportunity for Johnson and Hartley to train with each other throughout and play in a match that no one expected us to win. I’m happy that the coaches have faith in him, I can’t imagine Manu being given that responsibility if Faz or Goode were even half fit.

That’s absolutely right. We’ve got to give young players premiership experience if .we think that are capable of going all the way even if it means short term pain. The salary cap and our finances don’t allow us to buy our way out of this.
Agree to Jackson had to make that tackle, but absolutely no doubt the foot was in touch. Even the Exeter fans were conceding that!

Quote:

The Bard
....., but absolutely no doubt the foot was in touch. Even the Exeter fans were conceding that!

The TMO was responding to an on-field decision of 'Try', so 'Clear and obvious' comes into play. There was no doubt in my mind that he was in touch from the front camera, less so from the one in the rear. And the margin was so fine (mms) even from the front, that the TMO had a reason to say 'not obvious'.

Agreed Alan. If that had been overturned against us I would've been very agrieved (similarly if the ref had called it out in real time I wouldn't say there was clear and obvious evidence to overturn).

Can’t agree. Camera shows clearly in touch even if only by a centimetre. Not at all subjective. Wound have been a lot simpler if the straightforward tackle had been made.

I hope I am wrong but I haven't seen anything in Jackson's performances to date which suggests he has what it takes at this level. Unlike Elliot on the other hand who is a very exciting prospect.

I feel a bit sorry for Brandon. He’s been the coming man for a very long time now - and he’s finally getting some chances playing in a side which finds creating space and making line breaks and fashioning opportunities really really difficult. In a better side I do think he would look very dangerous ball in hand.

Defensively he makes errors and needs to improve. The tackle that led to the try being discussed above wasn’t a difficult one.

I think Brandon has found his better position of wing rather than centre - he now needs to kick on and fight for the other wing shirt, because with all due respect to Roti he is often injured and I think Tobias has made the other shirt his own.

We obviously rate him enough to have kept him above of Ben Harris and Francis Moore. He’s phenomenal with the ball in hand but sadly seems to have a few mistakes in his game which at Premiership level are the things that count.
He’ll have Angus Hall, Jack Bracken and Noah Calouri snapping at his heels before long too.

While Brandon should’ve made the tackle, the space comes from Loz blitzing out the line and not staying connected, forcing Brandon to bite in and cover 2 men, giving Brown Bampoe and easier step outside.

Brandon’s attacking aerial game looks to be very good, and he’s upped his work rates significantly over the past few years. With Tobias becoming, IMO our 1st choice winger, it’s easy to compare the path of the two of them, but I think while Brandon will take longer, he’s already come A LONG way from his performances in the academy.

Three match ban for Wilson, reduced to two if he completes tackle school

Does that include the Prem Cup matches, or is it Premiership only?

Quote:

AlanE2
Does that include the Prem Cup matches, or is it Premiership only?

Matches missed:
01/02/2025 v Ealing Trailfinders (Premiership Rugby Cup)
07/02/2025 v London Scottish (Premiership Rugby Cup)
15/02/2025 v Harlequins (Premiership Rugby Cup) *subject to completion of CIP.

Exeter's Vermeulen also gets two weeks for a (missed by the refs) shoulder to the head of Phil Brantingham

So the yellow for JMG which you could easily make a case isn't even a penalty, no yellow for Banpoles incredibly cynical offside and no red for something that looked like it needed reviewing in game?
Very hard not to conclude we were well and truly Tempo'd.

Quote:

PaulHerox
So the yellow for JMG which you could easily make a case isn't even a penalty, no yellow for Banpoles incredibly cynical offside and no red for something that looked like it needed reviewing in game?
Very hard not to conclude we were well and truly Tempo'd.

FFS, what’s point of having a TMO if they can’t spot foul play and deliberate knock-ons!

Absolutely no excuse for the Brantingham one . Phil said the ref was saying it was one of our own platers who’d done it! They had 5 minutes to have a proper look at it. What with that and the try we were very hard done by as they would have been down to 14 for 35 minutest

Yeah TMO said it was friendly fire.

Quote:

TommyKentish
I agree on the positives and the point around inexperience but this is a wider issue not isolated to this game or to inexperienced players, we’ve seen that in a number of matches this season.

Could've been worse - I've not been checking kick off times recently, looked at the BBC website mid-afternoon on Saturday and thought we were 30-17 up !