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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:07:05:08:31:29 by Darraghgirl.

With the salary cap fall-out the squad almost to a man repaid the clubs loyalty.
Spencer went for a pay-day to Bath. I'm glad he's done so well there but not sad he's gone.

Bath supporters seem to think that they'll send a PRC team.
I wouldn't be surprised if JVG sends them either full loaded or very strong.
He's been rotating brilliantly all season which means he's got great availability and I think he'll be aware of the risk of rotating too much and sending his XV/23 in "cold" for the home SemiFinal.

There are various permutations for us still making it but they all rely on other teams failing.
The most basic is a win for us and both Glaws and Bristol not getting points. That feels like a big ask.

I think my ideal would be Bath come fully loaded or close to and we pick our best team (without sentiment) and we give them a really good game and ideally win. Then even if we miss out we've shown what we can build on for next season. That's the very optimistic take.

No idea where he's at but would be great to see Carre. Otherwise:

Mawi, Dan, Riccioni, Maro(c) Iisekwe, JMG, Earl, Willis, Van-Zyl, Burke, Roti, Hartley, Tompkins, Elliott, Daly
Brantingham, George, Clarey, Sodeke, McFarland, Bracken, Johnson, Hall.

Don't think it's fair to say Spenno went for a pay day. This is a second hand account via other supporters who are essentially long time friends of the Spencer family, but seems it was far more to do with
1) at the time wanting to keep up his England aspirations (like Earl & Isiekwe)
2) having a young family and not wanting to be overly disruptive with a temporary relocation

My reply was really in response to "how did we let him go?"
We didn't he decided not to stick around in the tough times having enjoyed the great ones.
Lots of fair reasons for that decision as you say (salary was 100% a factor too) but I've still more time for those that did.

I also think those two former factors where the same for a number of players who did stay.

For me one of the issues for Spencer at Saracens was his lack of "voice" in the set-up.
That's maybe harder to find in an environment with Farrell, George, the Vunipolae, Maro etc than it was at Bath.
I think it's a credit to both him and Bath that he's found it there and grown as a player in a way that I'm slightly sceptical he would have had he stayed with us.
Just my view.

Treat as a development game + a send off for Goode please. Send them out saying we want 6+ tries. Personally I’m not bothered about the result.

There’s next to no chance Bath send a first team. The most pointless thing we could do imo is play our first team and just box kick and driving maul our way to a win. Play offs won’t happen, so use it as an opportunity to have a proper look at guys like Sodeke, Bracken, Hall etc.

We need more competition in the squad - we have too many coasters imo. I keep hearing about how excited everyone is about the younger squad members. Well let’s give them an opportunity to put a bit of pressure on the first team.

Quote:

PaulHerox
I think my ideal would be Bath come fully loaded .

You are deluded if you think Bath will send anything other than their kids on Saturday. Enjoy your 5 points.

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lineoutball

Quote:

PaulHerox
I think my ideal would be Bath come fully loaded .

You are deluded if you think Bath will send anything other than their kids on Saturday. Enjoy your 5 points.

We've lost to several half-cocked teams this season, no guarantees!

Bath gave their first choice players they day off versus Bristol then reinstated them to target wins against Leicester and Lyon. JVG will repeat this to target the semi and a potential final so have no doubt the young guns will be coming to make an impression. There is a sense of Deja Vu about this game, remember May 2023, Saracens came to Bath with a very young side for the final league match. It was a cracking game, they gave so much effort but eventually ran out of steam. Your key players had all been rested for the semi and you went on to win the final. JVG will have noted this.

Just seen this -

Saracens v Bath Rugby - StoneX Stadium, 3.05pm - live on discovery+ (Enhanced coverage)

Referee: Karl Dickson

Assistant Referees: George Selwood & John Meredith

TMO: Matthew Carley

Double jeopardy Dickson and Carley

Jesus wept. Dickson sent off Toby Knight down there for a very innocuous challenge and then made sure he got the maximum ban.
Compared to the challenges put in by Underhill and Muir last Friday it was barely even a penalty.
We really have upset the rugby Gods.

100 up for AOC and IVZ tomorrow, plenty more to come too.

Saracens Men team to play Bath Rugby:

1 Rhys Carre
2 Jamie George
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Maro Itoje (c)
5 Nick Isiekwe
6 Theo McFarland
7 Andy Onyeama-Christie
8 Tom Willis
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Fergus Burke
11 Rotimi Segun
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Elliot Daly
14 Tobias Elliott
15 Alex Goode

Replacements:

16 Theo Dan
17 Eroni Mawi
18 Harvey Beaton
19 Hugh Tizard
20 Juan Martin Gonzalez
21 Ben Earl
22 Charlie Bracken
23 Lucio Cinti



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:30:11:45:48 by Sarriebone.

“Team in transition” latest.

Bath Rugby Starting XV:

1 Scott Kirk,
2 Jasper Spandler,
3 Archie Griffin,
4 Will Jeanes,
5 Ewan Richards ©,
6 Ethan Staddon,
7 Tom Cowan,
8 Arthur Green,
9 Louis Schreuder,
10 Orlando Bailey,
11 Ruaridh McConnochie,
12 Will Parry,
13 Louie Hennessey,
14 Austin Emens,
15 Jack Woods

Replacements: 16 Kepu Tuipulotu, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 Kieran Verden, 19 Mackenzie Graham, 20 George Timmins, 21 Neil le Roux, 22 Tyler Offiah, 23 John Stewart

We could score 80 tomorrow, but Bath will get more out of it than we will.

If we aren’t going to select these youngsters that everyone seems so excited about tomorrow, then we never will.

We still in theory can qualify, but the Saints team sheet for Glos suggests otherwise.
Big surprised to see Cinti back, would rather have put Hartley in there.

Cinti needs minutes for the Argentina matches, the club are good at helping players with their international ambitions. I’m not sure playing one match at the end of the season against this Bath lineup will help anyone much anyway, let’s just enjoy the day and say goodbye to one of our greatest ever.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
We could score 80 tomorrow, but Bath will get more out of it than we will.
If we aren’t going to select these youngsters that everyone seems so excited about tomorrow, then we never will.

Whilst playoffs are still a possibility we cannot risk not winning by as much as possible.

Also tomorrow is a sell out and people will be expecting to see our first team

Imagine if we make the playoffs through Quins, Exeter and/or Saints doing us favours.

It would be a day long remembered, I likely wouldn't mind getting absolutely smashed down at the rec the week after either.

Quote:

Stumpy7780

Quote:

#wolfpack1
We could score 80 tomorrow, but Bath will get more out of it than we will.
If we aren’t going to select these youngsters that everyone seems so excited about tomorrow, then we never will.

Whilst playoffs are still a possibility we cannot risk not winning by as much as possible.

We knew Bath were going to send a reserve squad (although maybe not as reserve a squad as they have sent).

It doesn’t speak of much confidence in Charlie Bracken that we couldn’t possibly risk playing him in a game which very very very likely won’t matter, and we should win very comfortably anyway and absolutely have to play Van Zyl.

We absolutely mustn’t have Sodeke in on the bench ahead of a very lacklustre Tizard otherwise we may struggle in the last 25 mins against that Bath bench…

Etc etc

Quote:

nedrichards
It would be a day long remembered, I likely wouldn't mind getting absolutely smashed down at the rec the week after either.

Good luck tomorrow, I hope your 5 points and other results give you 4th place and a semi at the Rec. I really couldn't live if we lost at home again to Bristol. They are unpredictable but dangerous, that doesn't concern me but their supporters have given us a hard time this season and that bothers me.

Well I couldn't have got my predicted Bath squad anymore wrong.
Not even rotation that's proper "reserves" stuff.
Fully understand JVG's thinking but still a little bit of a shame not to see something nearer full strength.

Very strong for us. Great to see the return of Carre and Cinti.
Anyone know if the former is still just on a one year? Will this be farewell.

Given the squads picked for the other games our most likely route to Top 4 is Quins beating Bristol and us not only scoring a TBP but over-hauling Glaws 34 point PD over us. A very tall order and the important bit out of our hands.

Without being to brutal a fair few of those picked owe the supporters for the supine performance against Sale in the last game of the regular season last year.
I really hope we take this Bath team seriously and put our destiny in our hands with a ruthless and professional performance, a TBP and a big points difference.

Good luck to them all.
Thanks to those leaving for the work they've put in and best of luck in their new ventures whatever they may be.

Quote:

PaulHerox
Well I couldn't have got my predicted Bath squad anymore wrong.

Bath just won a trophy 7 days ago and have a big semi final 6 days after their game tomorrow, why on Earth would they risk anyone tomorrow when giving their first team two weeks to prepare is ideal? Common sense.

Quote:

lineoutball

Quote:

PaulHerox
Well I couldn't have got my predicted Bath squad anymore wrong.

Bath just won a trophy 7 days ago and have a big semi final 6 days after their game tomorrow, why on Earth would they risk anyone tomorrow when giving their first team two weeks to prepare is ideal? Common sense.

No. Just a different approach.

Saints went fully loaded in the Prem in games that meant nothing to them ahead of both their win over Leinster and close loss to UBB.
I'd guess in both cases they decided the risk of a player getting injured or banned was balanced by them going into the game in form.

JVG sees it differently and he's done a great job of rotating and picking and choosing so whose to say he's wrong.
Equally if Bath take 40 minutes to get into the SemiFinal or perish the thought actually lose it I 100% guarantee you Bath supporters will be asking why he gave everyone the week off and why you were caught cold.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

lineoutball

Quote:

PaulHerox
Well I couldn't have got my predicted Bath squad anymore wrong.

Bath just won a trophy 7 days ago and have a big semi final 6 days after their game tomorrow, why on Earth would they risk anyone tomorrow when giving their first team two weeks to prepare is ideal? Common sense.

No. Just a different approach.

Saints went fully loaded in the Prem in games that meant nothing to them ahead of both their win over Leinster and close loss to UBB.
I'd guess in both cases they decided the risk of a player getting injured or banned was balanced by them going into the game in form.

JVG sees it differently and he's done a great job of rotating and picking and choosing so whose to say he's wrong.
Equally if Bath take 40 minutes to get into the SemiFinal or perish the thought actually lose it I 100% guarantee you Bath supporters will be asking why he gave everyone the week off and why you were caught cold.

Northampton sent their kids the week before playing Saracens and used the Saracens game as a warm up for the Final.

Bath literally won a trophy and all the emotion that comes with that a week ago. It would be utterly stupid to send them back out again full strength for a nothing game, when they've a 6 day turnaround to the final.

Quote:

lineoutball
Northampton sent their kids the week before playing Saracens and used the Saracens game as a warm up for the Final ... It would be utterly stupid to send them back out again full strength for a nothing game, when they've a 6 day turnaround to the final.

You're not getting the contradiction in your post above?

You seem to get that Saints used Saracens as a warm up for their Final but think it's "stupid" for Bath to do the same on a nothing game.

Logic not a strong suit for you I'm guessing.

Ooh I've just seen the officials for this match - Karl Dickson reffing with Carley as TMO. We've clearly upset someone! All chance of a flowing game has gone lol.
I am surprised to see the 6/2 split. If Segun gets injured, what then? Ben Earl to the wing?
Also very surprised to see Andy O-C starting, it is superb he has returned to rugby so quickly but hasn't been (by his very high standards) playing his best rugby. Would've preferred to see Olamide Sodeke too. Tizard has not been pulling his weight for some time now

saracensfan62 I feel your trepidation and yet if we can't manage the referee with the team we've picked and Baths relative inexperience then we really do need to do some soul-searching.

Pearce has got the Bears game. Maybe after gifting Saints the win a fortnight ago he'll do us a favour and rob a different home team of the win ...

Really cool to put out a gun side to score 3 tries in 40 mins against Bath F. What a load of rubbish,

Making hard work of this. Dickson being Dickson though... Why no PT?

We don't deserve to be top 4, we may well win this but we've been terrible against an academy side

I’m sorry , this has been a shocking performance.

Collapsing when the replacements come on yet again...

No leadership on the field at all

Quote:

#wolfpack1
I’m sorry , this has been a shocking performance.

You’ve no need to apologise for telling the truth. Woeful from the squad.

Quote:

Sarriebone
Collapsing when the replacements come on yet again...
No leadership on the field at all

Same as most games this year.

An underwhelming performance against a youth side. A disappointing season all in all - too many dropped balls today.
At least we’ve secured a top class prop for next season. Even if Owen returns I don’t think, apart from goal kicking, that he’s significantly better than Burke.

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Not even disappointed as it was so expected. Totally clueless.

The same dross gameplan, the same inability to learn from the things we've been doing poorly all season and build on what we've done well.

Prolonged mid-table mediocrity beckons with Shaw as Head Coach.

Looking forward to all the posts telling me how great our coaches are ...

Well done to Tompkins. Intercept aside he had a cracking game.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:31:16:46:25 by PaulHerox.

Dismal performance which gave me no hope next year will be better. Our backs play is abject and I said it last week but we are soft mentally and it shows in the lack of desire to make that a 50 pt win. Some players who rode the coattails of our success are now failing to stamp their authority and next yr is make or break for a few imo.

The reality is we finished just 2 league points and 34 match points off Sale in third place, so I don’t think an overly pessimistic view is called for.
Four players in the Lions squad is respectable also, plus class players in JMG and Theo M.
Reasons to be cheerful…

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Quote:

JK12
Dismal performance which gave me no hope next year will be better. Our backs play is abject and I said it last week but we are soft mentally and it shows in the lack of desire to make that a 50 pt win. Some players who rode the coattails of our success are now failing to stamp their authority and next yr is make or break for a few imo.

100% agree on the soft comment. What on earth has happened to us in the final quarter. Subs constantly seem to make things worse.

But soft all season, Castres, Newcastle away, Northampton, Quins at home all come to mind

Quote:

Stumpy7780

Quote:

JK12
Dismal performance which gave me no hope next year will be better. Our backs play is abject and I said it last week but we are soft mentally and it shows in the lack of desire to make that a 50 pt win. Some players who rode the coattails of our success are now failing to stamp their authority and next yr is make or break for a few imo.

100% agree on the soft comment. What on earth has happened to us in the final quarter. Subs constantly seem to make things worse.

But soft all season, Castres, Newcastle away, Northampton, Quins at home all come to mind

For me it started last season once Faz was going Maro and Jamie aside no one stood up. Willis has been phenomenal but would have liked to have seen one of Dan , Earl and Isiekwe become true leaders. I dont believe we've seen that , performance and leading are different. When we were on it we had leaders everywhere now I'm not so sure.

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
The reality is we finished just 2 league points and 34 match points off Sale in third place, so I don’t think an overly pessimistic view is called for.
Four players in the Lions squad is respectable also, plus class players in JMG and Theo M.
Reasons to be cheerful…

Hard disagree.

This was a Bath Z team, and our “first” team made really really hard work of it. In fact we only won because we had a driving maul. If we decided to try and score some tries outside the forwards we’d have lost.

All we needed to see this season was progress, and to be able to go “ok, we finished 6th, but we can see where we’re going and with a tweak here and a tweak there, we’re looking good for next year.” We can’t do this.

Imo this has been a wasted season, a wasted opportunity and I can’t see any progress whatsoever.

Re progress ...only players who have stepped up are Elliot and Willis. No one else has stepped up IMO. Dan is a threat ball in hand but the accuracy of a blind archer at line out. Hartley and Spink in witness protection which left us rolling out the usual 9-13 package most games that is impotent with ball in hand.

Malins should be a huge upgrade and hopefully Faz does come back as this team needs an alpha male in the room.

Utterly appalling end to a dreadful season.

But at least we’re in transition with the 3 new players in the starting xv.

I think dreadful is a bit strong. I hoped ti make thus year as is a transition year. We made 6th same points as fifth. Had we beaten Newcastle away and held saints off we would have been more than happy.

What worries me is that we were flying until new year. Dan came on at 50 mins and the intensity was maintained. What did he do at the Christmas party to cause such a change? One minute he was toppling Jamie and the next minute he's in the wilderness. We/he need to cure this over the summer. While we are at it, we need yo break the gain line.

“Had we done this had we done that”

If Leicester had beaten team x and bath hadnt loss to team y they’d be even more points ahead.

“Flying until new year”

Who exactly did we fly against?

The only game I really remember us doing well in with our backs against the wall was the Bears away game. But it turns out they’re very good at bottling leads anyway

Leicester away was a good result too, but most of the rest of the season has been mediocre.

Losing away to Newcastle is unacceptable, Exeter away too really, given their final position although our hands were a bit tied with the England selection.

On paper our team looks pretty good but on the pitch we do not gel, very much feels like a team of individuals. Which isn’t something you could have said about many Sarries teams in the past 15 years

Quote:

siNBin
I think dreadful is a bit strong. I hoped ti make thus year as is a transition year. We made 6th same points as fifth. Had we beaten Newcastle away and held saints off we would have been more than happy.
What worries me is that we were flying until new year. Dan came on at 50 mins and the intensity was maintained. What did he do at the Christmas party to cause such a change? One minute he was toppling Jamie and the next minute he's in the wilderness. We/he need to cure this over the summer. While we are at it, we need yo break the gain line.

I feel for Dan, the international breaks with no rugby completely derailed him. Similar with Tizard, the red card and saga around it seemed to destroy his confidence.

[youtu.be] For those who have the time this is an interesting watch and specifically calls out us (both men and and women’s) along with Leinster and Crusdaders and lagging behind the tactical cycle. Obviously each team has lost a world class fly half in that time but that’s not where the issue lies according to this. It was interesting to watch today’s match in light of the points made.

Season is done now, this match didn’t matter really and even if we’d pumped them it wouldn’t have brought any solace. Lots of work to do for the team over the summer, they’ll be aware of it more than any of us.

Awful last game of season, stop start 1st half, no flow, 2nd a collapse after the bench a started to empty. Another 10 minutes and we’d have lost it. Who on earth was captain after Maro, Jamie and Ivan went off? No leadership at all. I can see a lower league position next year, glad I gave up my season ticket, will try and hit games we might win next year, like Newcastle and….

Glad you gave up season tickets on the basis of one dodgy season? I always thought supporters were supposed to stick by the club though thick and thin but some people are acting like we’ve relegated when we’ve finish a few points behind 4th. Thank God we’ve not had a season like Chiefs!

Quote:

TommyKentish
Glad you gave up season tickets on the basis of one dodgy season? I always thought supporters were supposed to stick by the club though thick and thin but some people are acting like we’ve relegated when we’ve finish a few points behind 4th. Thank God we’ve not had a season like Chiefs!

“At least we’re not chiefs”

“At least it isn’t Watford”

“At least it isn’t Bradley road”

What wonderful standards…

Behave. There’s a difference between having standards and giving up season tickets/ supporting the team because of a difficult season. I been critical of the team plenty this season but never thought about chucking in the season tickets.

Behave. There’s a difference between having standards and giving up season tickets/ supporting the team because of a difficult season. I been critical of the team plenty this season but never thought about chucking in the season tickets.

Apparently we ended the season on the same number of points as last year so hardly a collapse.
Some cracking stuff today but the last 20 a shambles after Goodey went off.
Absolutely no game management whatsoever. Fergus very good at everything other than kicking. Willis good as usual but sadly Andy OC annonymous.
Big Theo becoming a bit of a liability as well unfortunately, he does drop the ball far too often for a professional basketball ball player.

“Some cracking stuff” is very generous. One nice try (Seguns), and that’s about it.

Agree about McFarland though. He needs to buck his ideas up. He looks very lazy.

My point was meant to demonstrate that if we had been on it for about 4%more of the season, we could have been excited about an away play off at Leicester. Small margins indeed.

I think we have our starting back row for next season with Earl, JMG and Willis, there’s a nice balance to it. At least we were trying things with Theo again by sticking him on the wing to take a cross field kick, it’s never quite working but the theory is there. I imagineAOC is working through some psychological issues along with the physical, hopefully the summer gives him time to take stock after what felt like a very quick return from such a serious injury. It must be difficult after three nasty injuries but I’m sure the club will be giving him all the support possible to get back to his best.

Feel we have to move on from NT at first choice 12 . He's a great squad player but he isn't an elite 12 , have to hope Spink or Hartley step up or maybe Faz plays 12 ??

A discussion we had in our seats today is when do you get rid of players who seem to be always injured?

Loz was the example we were thinking of at the time, but Spink has played, maybe 3 games?

Signing Malins also a risk as he always seems injured as well

Quote:

TommyKentish
https://youtu.be/prrkU9cjeDU?si=ZbuJoHX0XAD52Tcj For those who have the time this is an interesting watch and specifically calls out us (both men and and women’s) along with Leinster and Crusdaders and lagging behind the tactical cycle. Obviously each team has lost a world class fly half in that time but that’s not where the issue lies according to this. It was interesting to watch today’s match in light of the points made.

Thanks TommyKentish. Despite normally watching his videos I'd missed that one.

What is so depressing isn't just that we haven't adapted in the past two seasons in the way many other teams have but that we've actively doubled down on the opposite of what they're embracing.

The video makes the point that low ruck speed had become an "arm's race", well not at Saracens where we actively try and slow the ball down. Today another game with 30%+ 6 second (slowest ruck time)

The video suggests that teams are even trying to cut that down by removing rucks by offloading and playing the ball from the ground to support in Robertson/RoG KBA (Keep Ball Alive) manner, well not at Saracens where we send our players who are good at offloading out of the tackle; Willis, JMG, Earl etc into contact and then have a second row drive over them to secure the ball whilst Van-Zyl waits for protection to kick the ball away.

The stat from Ospreys, assuming it's true that after a line break a ruck makes it 54% less likely you'll score is a real eye-opener.

At the risk of being too negative why I think there's cause for optimism is because we have the players who can play like that. We saw it today a little and for the first 50 against Saints.
It's coaching not personnel hamstringing us.

Probably the best moment of the game for me was the identification of space by Van-Zyl the wonderful chip and the chase, chip and regather by Burke. Two players in sync playing to their abilities unconstrained by idiotic game doctrine.

Incidentally that would be the Burke who played under Roberston at the Crusaders whilst they where embracing the KBA strategy.
We've got a 10 who can play that way and has been coached by one of the best in the World at that style but wait, lets box-kick possession away from 9 instead and cross our finger that we can re-sign the 10 whose style of play probably peaked five seasons ago.
Genius.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:31:20:07:33 by PaulHerox.

Quote:

JK12
Feel we have to move on from NT at first choice 12 . He's a great squad player but he isn't an elite 12 , have to hope Spink or Hartley step up or maybe Faz plays 12 ??

Harsh on Tompkins, I think he’s been one of if not our most consistent player since the six nations. Also random stat I saw is that he’s 4th in the league for turnovers won, just behind Maro and joint with Willis. That was before today and I think he got a couple more.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Harsh on Tompkins, I think he’s been one of if not our most consistent player since the six nations. Also random stat I saw is that he’s 4th in the league for turnovers won, just behind Maro and joint with Willis. That was before today and I think he got a couple more.

+1
I'm in favour of bringing the younger players through but calls for Hartley over Tompkins based on what, hope, it certainly isn't anything else and Tompkins has been very good indeed. It's a shame for him that he seems to have dropped out of the Welsh squad but I feel we will benefit. One of his biggest problems was simply how much rugby he has had to play in recent seasons.

Hartley's time will hopefully come but he needs more to his game than running straight if he's to displace a player of Tompkins quality.

Quote:

JK12
Feel we have to move on from NT at first choice 12 . He's a great squad player but he isn't an elite 12 , have to hope Spink or Hartley step up or maybe Faz plays 12 ??

Absolutely correct. Thought so for the last 12 months.

Don’t really think we’ve got an elite replacement at the moment though but the thought is 100% right.

Amongst all the doom and gloom 5he fact remains that if the officials do their job at the end of the Saints game we finish third with a winnable semi at Leicester to come.

Quote:

The Bard
Amongst all the doom and gloom 5he fact remains that if the officials do their job at the end of the Saints game we finish third with a winnable semi at Leicester to come.

Pearce was execrable at the StoneX and Vermuellen's red card being missed at Sandy Park could have made a difference too but the abject performances and more importantly gameplan; kick the ball away, ignore overlaps, one up runners into contact away at Falcons and in both Quins game are where the team needed to "do their job" in my view.

Quote:

The Bard
Amongst all the doom and gloom 5he fact remains that if the officials do their job at the end of the Saints game we finish third with a winnable semi at Leicester to come.

As it was we finished in the lower half of the table in a poor league and failed to get a home knock out game in Europe from our very winnable set of matches.

With the squad we have this is an underachievement, and Pearce being a self important arrogant know it all doesn’t change this. If we had engaged in proper change, 6th place and an away European knock out loss would have been fine. But we didn’t change, or look to develop either our match day squad or our style.

On development, can anyone explain to me why Bracken only got 15 mins yesterday? Imo he should have started at got 80 mins, but let’s accept the argument of some (incl presumably the coaches) that whilst we were still theoretically in the competition we had to play our strongest team. We were out of the competition almost immediately. None of the results were going our way (entirely predictable, but there we go). Why wouldn’t you give Bracken a full half? Or longer? What do we gain from playing Van Zyl for 65 minutes?

What is “transition” season about anything we did yesterday at all?

If we didn’t use this season to build for the future (which we didn’t), then judgment of the season must be based on results. They speak for themselves.

Its a good point re transition. Only new young players were Elliot and Burke. No one else played significant minutes. We missed a huge chance to play CB for significant minutes and not sure why Louis Johnson got zero looks , we could have heaven forbid experimented with FB at 15.

Only element of it being a transition is the squad turnover but ghis wasn't some blooding of youth at the detriment to performances. For me moving on from IVZ , Tizard and LOz for differing reasons would have allowed us to freshen up a stale core.

I am still a half glass full person and think that there is plenty of quality in the squad that we will have for next season. There are a few players who definitely have something to prove of which the likes of Tizard and McFarland are towards the top of my list - both simply need to do more hard graft up front.
I would really like us to box kick somewhat less next year particularly in the middle third of the pitch.
I would welcome Farrell back as a player but to primarily play 12 and as a back up 10 in the match day 23. I want to see Burke retain the lead responsibility as our main 10.
If we play to our potential reasonably consistently we can readily be Premiership Champions again but to be honest I don’t fancy our chances in the Champions Cup without larger and deeper squads which are simply not possible given the financial state of English rugby.

Quote:

TommyKentish

Quote:

JK12
Feel we have to move on from NT at first choice 12 . He's a great squad player but he isn't an elite 12 , have to hope Spink or Hartley step up or maybe Faz plays 12 ??

Harsh on Tompkins, I think he’s been one of if not our most consistent player since the six nations. Also random stat I saw is that he’s 4th in the league for turnovers won, just behind Maro and joint with Willis. That was before today and I think he got a couple more.

I feel that we have benefitted from Tompkins not playing for Wales - he always seemed to come back out of sorts. (Particularly the time they made him bulk up.)
For me he has added to his game this season, or just got the confidence to do what he has always been capable of doing. I place a lot of the reason for this on him becoming a Dad - it does that to some people.

Faz coming back would add to the mix and in a player/coach role could impart his wisdom and help the team. A gain line centre would be amazing but players like Brad B who put everything on the line are hard to find.
How have Bath got this strength and depth. I read about them backloading contracts but is that a smart way to get around the salary cap until they have to pay above market rates when these players develop.

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
I want to see Burke retain the lead responsibility as our main 10.

This ^

I do think this season has shown we are trying to evolve our attack but it just feels like the coaching team lacks the confidence to really commit and for me that's been a theme for multiple seasons.
I think of the final we lost against Tigers. In the first half we attacked with real intent, ball in hand but we kept dropping/fumbling passes. The fact is we were cutting an excellent Tigers defence to pieces but the coughing up the ball in their 22 by forcing the last passes.
Rather than backing our selves we reset to playing without the ball and got sucker punched.

We saw the same yesterday. A little attacking ambition but a few coughed up passes and we shut up shop.

Saints had a "transition" season where lots of the passes didn't stick and they struggled to a degree but it gave them the confidence in terms of being backed to play but also that their team mates would be on the same page.
You need to be comfortable and for players to embrace that style.

It feels like someone has said "our attack needs to develop" but both the coach trying to develop the attack and the players know that whoever is in charge doesn't really believe that and isn't prepared to really invest in making it happen.

I think the signing I am looking forward to more than any other is our new attack coach, whoever that may be. If we can evolve our attack and not just rely on box-kicking, slowing ruck ball and (a less fearsome) defence, I think we can push on next season for top 4. But all of the coaches have got to embrace it.

Quote:

Strangelove
I think the signing I am looking forward to more than any other is our new attack coach, whoever that may be ... But all of the coaches have got to embrace it.

Agree but there's the rub.
If our Head Coach doesn't back them we could have Wayne Smith and our attack will still be rooted in the past.

Literally no attack coach is saying "do you know what would really help, if we continuously slowed down all our own ball, waited for the defence to set then kicked it away"

I hope I'm wrong but it feels a bit like Sorrell is carrying the can for our attack when the blame almost certainly lies higher up.