Saracens v Bath Rugby Premiership Preview

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:10:21:13:41 by Darraghgirl.

Hope everyone enjoys this preview, took me a fair while to write!
Comment any thoughts and lets get the discussion going!

Great article, very strange team....

Not AOC, Burke, Tizard, Tompkins, Daly etc seems very strange - Am I missing something?

Great review thank you....

I'll wager maybe 7 of your starting XV being right though..

Jimfitz, Burke seemed to be carrying a problem in his leg in the last Scotland match. I would be surprised to see Daly starting given his lack of proper match fitness lately, but I may be wrong...
Andy OC and Tompkins are on standdown from the international period I believe, and the centre pairing of Hartley and Spink has been working nicely of late, it would seem illogical to change it.

Getting predicted lineups for teams after an international break is near impossible, 90% of the time I made educated guesses as to what the team may be. Are they going to be on a weeks standdown or aren't they, have they picked up a small niggle/injury, are they just going to be rested that week? Those decisions lie with the coaches so really I just have to make assumptions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:11:25:16:51:39 by saracensfan62.

Michelow has been very impressive recently too, plus Sodeke is (at the minute) playing better than Tizard. I could be completely and utterly wrong, we'll have to wait and see!

Not sure where you are getting the information on stand downs? AOC and Tommo can come straight back in.

Fair play, but I think you may have got this one slightly wrong. 7, maybe 8 max from that list will be right. That bench in particular looks very young! Think you may have been slightly hoodwinked from the Prem Cup!

Very good review as always and Chapeau to whoever took the picture that is exceptional.

Hartley and Spink v Ojomoh/Lawrence. No thanks. Tompkins and Cinti please.
I think its fair to say it's a difficult task calling a team without fully knowing the available. If we're to play a strong team then Tompkins in particular is essential.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:11:25:17:56:18 by PaulHerox.

Lawrence is injured isn’t he?

Either way, fantastic preview, can tell a lot of work went into that. Fascinated to see the respective lineups.

I thought he just had a niggle but was expected to be ok but maybe I got that wrong. Redpath/Ojomoh wouldn't be much better from our point of view.

We’ve got very little chance of beating the Blue Bulls as we are playing the Sharks!
The lineout was a shambles on Saturday, we could have lost 9-10 in total? Scrum much better.
Owen will definitely will play 12 or 10 if Burke crocked.
Malins v Daly at fullback a big call to be made.
Calouri and/or Hall will probably start, but Jackson in his best form by a distance at the moment.
We do know Mark always goes for experience if in any doubt so we’ll probably get Maitland and Goodey back!

Going to go with something like this:

1. Rhys Carre
2. Theo Dan
3. Marco R
4. Maro
5. Nick I
6. JMG
7. AOC
8. Tom W

9. IVZ
10. Faz

11. Cinti
12. Faz
13. Tommo
14. Daly
15. Malins

16. Hadfield
17. Mawi (If fit)
18. Street
19. Tiz
20. Sodeke
21. Theo Mac
22. Bracken
23. Noah / Jackson

You can’t have Faz in twice!

Unfair of me to criticise without having a guess...

1. Rhys Carre
2. Theo Dan
3. Marco R
4. Maro
5. Tiz
6. JMG
7. Earl
8. Tom W

9. IVZ
10. Burke

11. Cinti
12. Faz
13. Tommo
14. Malins
15. Daly

16. Hadfield
17. Mawi (If fit)
18. Street
19. Michelow
20. Sodeke
21. Theo Mac
22. Bracken
23. Noah / Jackson

Home game. Gotta go big IMHO

It sounded a little like Itoje and Earl might be rested. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
If Burke plays 10 and we have centres fit then I'd like to see Tompkins/Cinti asap.
It's a real shame Wilson got a knock. Right now I think you could make a strong case for him in a starting XV in terms of balance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:11:26:21:13:16 by PaulHerox.

He was down for a while at the end of the first half but came out for the second and played 20 more minutes and went off looking ok.
Could see him on the bench.

If Mawi is not fit, who’s your 17?

O’Driscoll? Tuimauga?

One of those two yeah. Probably the latter of both fit but considering our record with props it’s doubtful both would be fit.

Bard you are quite right - we stand little chance of beating Bulls since we are playing the Sharks. Have corrected that now.
Thank you for comments, all. I have been struggling to find much time to get these done so please bare with me if i make some daft errors! It's just my tired brain playing tricks on itself



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:11:27:12:13:57 by saracensfan62.

Absolutely no problem, we appreciate the effort. Can’t think of many times in recent years when our team selection has so many different possibilities.

Quite agree. I for one am extremely excited about a future and our academy which seems to be a never-ending fountain of youthful talent! Its brilliant to see so many youngsters starting in the first XV

Speculate no longer:

Saracens Men's team to play Bath Rugby:

1 Rhys Carre

2 Theo Dan

3 Marco Riccioni

4 Theo McFarland

5 Hugh Tizard

6 Juan Martin Gonzalez

7 Ben Earl

8 Tom Willis

9 Ivan van Zyl (c)

10 Owen Farrell

11 Max Malins

12 Nick Tompkins

13 Lucio Cinti

14 Noah Caluori

15 Elliot Daly

Replacements:

16 James Hadfield

17 Eroni Mawi

18 Marcus Street

19 Harry Wilson

20 Nick Isiekwe

21 Charlie Bracken

22 Fergus Burke

23 Angus Hall

And the opposition:

Bath Rugby: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Thomas du Toit, 4 Quinn Roux, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Miles Reid, 8 Arthur Green, 9 Ben Spencer (c), 10 Finn Russell, 11 Henry Arundell, 12 Will Butt, 13 Chris Harris, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 15 Tom de Glanville

Replacements: 16 Dan Frost, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Ross Molony, 20 Ted Hill, 21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 Max Ojomoh, 23 Cameron Redpath

That’s gonna be a tough game for us.

Oof no Maro is a big loss. Going to be a massive test and really important for our season.

A serious squad from Bath considering that it isn’t their first 23!

I think our scrum will struggle a bit with McFarland and Tizard in the second row. Sunday might underline how important signing Martin might be.

Yes, a massive challenge ahead and a day when our homework gets very thoroughly marked. Interesting we’ve gone for the bulk of Wilson and Isiekwe over the athleticism of Christie on the bench.
But we have resisted the 6-2 thankfully

Saracens v Bath Rugby
Referee: Christophe Ridley (90th match)
ARs: Sara Cox & Simon Harding
TMO: Stuart Terheege

Quote:

The Bard
Yes, a massive challenge ahead and a day when our homework gets very thoroughly marked. Interesting we’ve gone for the bulk of Wilson and Isiekwe over the athleticism of Christie on the bench.
But we have resisted the 6-2 thankfully

AOC presumably carrying a niggle bur I can see the reasoning if not. Bath’s tight 5 are pummelling teams up front so we’ll need stopping power in the pack.

I know Ferg picked up a knock vs Tonga, but I think if Maro had started, Ferg may have been at 10 with Faz at 12 - think they want Faz’s leadership and next to IVZ - I think we could struggle to win against a strong Bath 23

Two strong teams in a game that looks too close to call. We can definitely win if we bring our A game and there is plenty of pace in our back division but will Bath’s front 5 squeeze the life out of us at scrum and maul? Looking forward to what I hope is a great game in front of a packed StoneX.

The only change I would make is to swap Angus for Noah. Probably more likely to make an impact if he hasn't been toiling away for most of the game, and we don't want the opposition to get too comfortable with the x factor Noah brings to the proceedings

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
Two strong teams in a game that looks too close to call. We can definitely win if we bring our A game and there is plenty of pace in our back division but will Bath’s front 5 squeeze the life out of us at scrum and maul? Looking forward to what I hope is a great game in front of a packed StoneX.

All of the bookies have a Sarries win and they are rarely wrong - here's hoping for a good game of rugby, no injuries or reffing controversies before the Euro comp starts.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Expecting a lot of kick chase with Noah onto Arundell

A seriously strong Saracens squad.

Maybe 5 off a first choice 23 - JG, Itoje, Loz, Christie (?), Elliott/Segun (?)

That is certainly a full-strength squad from Bath. I think it'll be a tough game, but we can get the win if we knuckle down at scrumtime and try and limit the impact Russell has on the game.

Quote:

saracensfan62
That is certainly a full-strength squad from Bath. I think it'll be a tough game, but we can get the win if we knuckle down at scrumtime and try and limit the impact Russell has on the game.

It’s not a full strength squad. That’s what’s so alarming for us and the rest of the league.

Two very strong teams although I think Bath are missing a few more than us.
Good to see Andrew Rogers doing his usual top notch job with Chris Harris (injury cover for Ollie Lawrence who has started 6 games so far this season) starting for Bath.
Both benches look decent with Redpath and Ojomoh an interesting call. I wonder if they'll swap the centre's as a unit?
Interested to see more of Green at 8 for them. I'm not familiar with Carr-Smith but I guess he's an "in case of emergency" option.

A bit like Clermont next week this is a game that should give us an idea of where we really are after some very mixed results early season.
The team does look good although I think I'd prefer the bench locks starting and the vice-versa. Also Burke over Farrell.
I'd actually really like to have seen Wilson start. He's made such a difference and it would be good to work out to what degree that's the quality of opposition.

Will a kicking game and trying to defend to a win cut it. I'm not sure although Van-Zyl and Farrell together heavily suggests that's what we'll try.
I'm really hoping we can get Willis usual sterling performance but we can see more of Earl carrying too so it's less easy to shut either down.
Hoping for Daly to look far less rusty and Malins to look like Malins of old too.

Spencer has come on so much at Bath and is now a really great player but Bath are so reliant on Spencer and I hope we have a plan to put a spoke in his works. For England he was rolling the ball out at the ruck making it playable so I'd hope that we're live to that, check with the ref and then keep him honest.
With Ridley in charge we'll need to mind our Ps&Qs as penalties, lines-outs then scrums in our 22 are not going to help.

Hoping for a great game and a third of the way through the season off the back of a break in which the coaching and attack in particular will have had some more valuable time together I'm hoping to see a performance that reminds me why this is such a great club.

Quote:

MarkCol7
Expecting a lot of kick chase with Noah onto Arundell

I'd hope we're a bit brighter than that and swap Caluori onto Cocka's wing if we go aerial. He's poor in the air and even poorer on the turn. Arundell is decent in the air.
There are limited weaknesses to target in that Bath team so I hope we go after those there are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:11:28:17:42:41 by PaulHerox.

Bath missing Lawrence, Carreras, Barbeary/Coetzee, Muir(?), Pepper, Underhill from a first choice 23.

The selection of Green at 8 and the starting centres are the surprises.

Quote:

BathMatt53

All of the bookies have a Sarries win and they are rarely wrong - here's hoping for a good game of rugby, no injuries or reffing controversies before the Euro comp starts.

Agreed.

tigersimon I think four of those start for sure in a "best" Bath XV and either of those two choices of 8 or Reid go there ahead of Green. A third of their best XV out?
For us George and Maro into the XV although you could potentially make a case for George on the bench in terms of balance. Lozo fully fit might still be over Cinti and Segun over Caluori but those are far less certain than Lawrence over Harris or Carerras over TDG for me. I'd say only Maro is 100%

The prospect of Noah Caluori and Max Ojomoh on the same rugby field is rather tasty. This is going to be tight despite the bookmakers having us as winners. Nice day for it too. Setting off from a sunny West Sussex shortly.

My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.

I'm begging her for one more try!

Breathless first half. Frustrating not to be further ahead, the intercept from IVZ and Willis going off were huge blows. Going to be a tough second half, Bath’s bench is very strong.

Burke has been less than optimal since he came on.

Dan a liability at line outs again , Tizzard abd Isiekwe outmuscled and Harry Wilson showing both of them how to hit...good game but our weaknesses showed again.

Just not good enough all round in the second half. I try not to overreact when we lose but it’s tough to see how we would win anything without the sort of tight 5 play we saw from Bath today.

Isiekwe and Tizzard are exactly why we need a revamp ...absolutely average

Thought we actually played ok. Some positives and to be honest I’d have taken two points at the start of the day. Still few flat about the result and parts of it were pleasing.

Thought bath were way below their best though and have multiple more gears than we saw today. Saw it for about 10 mins at the start of the second half.

We’re nowhere near their level.

Anyone questioning why we are signing Williams , Martin, Morgan and after a hooker saw exactly why today..

Quote:

JK12
Isiekwe and Tizzard are exactly why we need a revamp ...absolutely average

Totally agree. And I both thought they had two of their better games today.

Said it for two years- we need a couple of monsters. Big gnarly Bokke type monsters. Northampton lock type players. Hopefully Martin is the start

Very dispiriting.

Unlike the Quins and Saints loss we weren’t awful, but despite this and despite Bath being poor, at no point did I feel that we were winning that game.

JMG excellent and McFarland had best game for a couple of years (playing for a contract?), but as usual Theos line out is a shambles, we’re too easy to score against, physicality missing and we have to think of a way of using Noah other than just hoofing the ball in his direction.

Now 3/6 with a decent Exeter to come next. We’re less than the sum of our parts and are struggling to improve on last year’s performance atm.

A cracking game for the neutral and both sides playing fast, accurate rugby that we Tigers can only aspire to.

Also CInti is about as much a Prem 13 as I am a ballet dancer.
Positive felt Malins looked good on the wing and the replacement 1-3 better than the starters

We also learned/remembered that Farrell is a much much better flyhalf than Burke. And a much much better flyhalf than he is a centre.

edit: however, I was very frustrated that all the kicks for Caluori meant he had to stop to jump for them. He needs kicks that he can chase and jump for without breaking stride.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:11:30:17:33:17 by Toga.

I’m on quite a bit on painkillers so maybe I’m oversimplifying things but I think we are trying an attack that is quite complicated and tough to pull off. I don’t mind that because it’s exactly what we should be aiming for with the players we have but at the moment it might be taking away from the parts that Bath, who show a remarkable clarity of purpose, do so well. There’s nothing too complicated about what the tight 5 doing, just absolutely nailing the basics relentlessly. Set piece, hitting things hard, clearing rucks and making hard yards. Very South African unsurprisingly and it works with a splattering of Baylis carrying every now and again.

Maybe this is part of the transition we keep hearing about though, which might well take a bit longer to implement than we all thought.

Firstly it was a close exciting game and I didn’t think that we lost due a lack of commitment. Losing Willis so early was a big moment as we don’t have many hard yards carriers. I was actually pleasantly surprised by Theo McF and we weren’t out muscled in the scrum as I had feared - in fact we seemed to have the edge at times, although still got penalised by Ridley! I thought Bath ultimately won because their back division could pass the ball at pace better than we could! I thought that Cinti was fairly anonymous at outside centre and we tried the high kick too often for Noah. Our squad isn’t as strong as Bath’s and I think we will do well to finish in the top 4 this year.
It was nice to see the StoneX full on what was a good afternoon for running rugby.

Kicking to Calouri became the tactic every time have ball which makes it harder for Noah as everyone is expecting

We have to be honest that some of the recruitment 22-24 has been lacking and I woukd say from 3 x transfer signing periods only JMG , Willis and Possibly Carre have been major contributors. That needs a review as to why.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

MarkCol7
Expecting a lot of kick chase with Noah onto Arundell

I'd hope we're a bit brighter than that and swap Caluori onto Cocka's wing if we go aerial. He's poor in the air and even poorer on the turn. Arundell is decent in the air.
There are limited weaknesses to target in that Bath team so I hope we go after those there are.

Goodness but our coaching can be dull.
Not only to not target the weak link but to continue with the tactic of kicking to Caluori when it obviously wasn't working.

I briefly had hope in the first half, quick ball from Van-Zyl, great speed of play and Willis, Earl and Dan making good carries whilst our attack had variation.
Unfortunately Farrell's grip of this team is too strong and once Bath started to play their way back in, mainly through us feeding them possession, we predictably reverted to limited play at his instigation. Reinforced by the subs by the coaches.

I fear for this team as that is only going to be entrenched by giving Farrell another season then bringing him into the coaching set up. A very unwelcome return to him hectoring and annoying the referee too.

Hopefully Willis is ok.
Wilson should start next week. Time to stop picking on reputation and start picking on who delivers.

Farrell was one of our best players today.. if you feel he was the reason for our result I dont know what to say

I assume you coaches will be there Monday at OAs offering your wisdom.

Some of you need to give your heads a wobble.

Quote:

JK12
Farrell was one of our best players today.. if you feel he was the reason for our result I dont know what to say

Humour him. He doesn't realise.

Yeah I think that criticism of Faz is overdone. He was doing his best to spread it wide a lot today, even on our own line. I get what people are saying about the kicking to Caluori but a lot of the kicks were when we’d stalled around the half way line or in our own half, so essentially just replacing the box kick as a way of creating a 50/50 and maybe creating some chaos before we got turned over. The execution was lacking sometimes but it wasn’t always done with the express aim of him pulling a rabbit out of the hat every time like v Sale.

He was good in the first half with two fabulous passes in a performance where we were generally on top.
In the second he's where the calls were coming from to kick away rather than play wide. He's calling for us to turn down an easy 3 before half time. We persisted with a kicking strategy that wasn't working and stopped the variation in attack that was. He was increasingly irritating Ridley and I think we saw that reflected in some calls. There's no point in having an attack coach if we want Farrell to run it.

We suffered in his last season with us because of it being "Farrell's team" and we're headed back there at a rate of knots. We're going to end up playing a style that suits Farrell but not the team we have.

The number of times we kicked the ball in the hope that our players were quicker than theirs was embarrasing. It just gave Bath another opportunity to run at us. Couldn't defend the Bath maul but I thought the lineout was ok despite a couple of losses. JMG was good again, hope we are able to hang on to him. A game of lost opportunity, defeat because of our play rather than Bath's brilliance

Quote:

saracen1971
I assume you coaches will be there Monday at OAs offering your wisdom.
Some of you need to give your heads a wobble.

I love these sort of replies.
Ahead of the game it was obvious that if we were going to kick to the boy-wonder (obviously a decent tactic) it made sense to switch him to attack the weaker winger aerially. We even put McFarland out there so why not try putting the ball up with McFarland v Coka. Instead we did 60 minutes of diminishing returns and never thought to switch it up. I find it incredible that you don' think that's an issue or that it takes any monumental wisdom to see it.

Quote:

PaulHerox
He was good in the first half with two fabulous passes in a performance where we were generally on top.
In the second he's where the calls were coming from to kick away rather than play wide. He's calling for us to turn down an easy 3 before half time. We persisted with a kicking strategy that wasn't working and stopped the variation in attack that was. He was increasingly irritating Ridley and I think we saw that reflected in some calls. There's no point in having an attack coach if we want Farrell to run it.

We suffered in his last season with us because of it being "Farrell's team" and we're headed back there at a rate of knots. We're going to end up playing a style that suits Farrell but not the team we have.

Owen Farrell has been playing for Saracens since 2007.

How long have you been a fan?

Quote:

Toga
Burke has been less than optimal since he came on.

What do you imagine he was going to do in the 13 minutes that Farrell kicked the ball away.

The only thing that annoys me watching Sarries lose is the absolute nonsense that comes out of Paul Herox mouth. You would think he is an international coach the way he goes on... honestly. Still yet to see him say anything positive in the four years I've been on this channel.

Faz was brilliant today, and was not the reason we lost. But if you want to listen to Paul's agenda, go for it.

Jeez, some on this board are so negative. Today we were narrowly beaten by a better team, and if a couple of 50/50 calls had gone the other way we could've won. If (a big if I know) we make it to the playoffs and come up against Bath, I certainly wouldn't write us off! I'm not a tactical expert, but I saw plenty to be positive about today despite the result.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:11:30:18:31:49 by Roger G.

I was hopeful for the season until today. I fear this is another season treading water.

Like others have said, we were appalling like we were last season at times.

That said, being hot right now isn’t going to win you the title, a hot streak in the new year is far more important.

I think he showed today that he is still vastly superior to Burke at actually running an attack and bringing other players into the game. The call before half time was a risk that didn’t come off, it happens and it wasn’t Faz’s fault we ballsed up the lineout. How many times have we seen that sort of call come off in the past and us suddenly go in at half time absolutely bouncing?

I think the change in variation and stalling of our attack came down to fitness as much as anything, we looked like we’d punched ourselves out by going so hard in the first 20 mins. Not to mention, Bath are a damned hard team to beat and their bench has an impact that ours largely lacked.

As to being “Farrell’s team” and not playing a style that suits the team, we’ve seen for large portions today and in previous seasons that he can play anyway we want to.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Yeah I think that criticism of Faz is overdone. He was doing his best to spread it wide a lot today, even on our own line. I get what people are saying about the kicking to Caluori

First 40 he was. Thereafter I genuinely didn't see that. I saw a player who managed us into an increasingly kick orientated game that we were losing.

The thing is we had seen exactly the same happen to Caluori v Saints where it was also our main attacking plan.
It's the Tom Willis thing all over again. We have a genuinely World Class direct carrier. Lets just always run him direct and hope he makes metres.
Where's the subtlety, where's the variation, it really isn't a lot to ask of a coaching team as experience as ours but lacking that we just make our most potent weapons predictable and easy(er) to close down.

IvZ threw a gift wrapped pass to the fastest player in there league.

IvZ was the problem last season and he's the problem this season. He can produce good moments but he makes far too many errors, his box kicking is often risible and he's simply not quick enough getting the ball away.

Faz absolutely not the issue today. I thought he played well. Nor was Fergus a problem off the bench - I’m not sure he was on long enough to be a problem.

The problem is that we’re soft.

The forwards concede yards too easily and make yards too infrequently. As SXJim said above - we need a couple of big monsters: Martin is a start; I want more. The backs are lateral. We really need Spink to come good to get a bit of direction.

I don’t think we’re a poor side. I just think we’re not a good one. And as for getting on a roll … it’s Clermont (h), Sharks (a), Exeter (h), Gloucester (a), Leicester (a), Toulouse (h). Not sure how many Ws I’m seeing at the moment

Quote:

Roger G
I saw plenty to be positive about today despite the result.

Let's flip my rhetoric then.
What did you see today that you feel positive about, lets celebrate that.
I think it's right to say most of the first 40.

Would love to know how long this Paul Herox bloke has been a Sarries fan?

Quote:

Toga
... he's simply not quick enough getting the ball away.

How to illustrate you either didn't watch the game or know literally nothing about rugby.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

Toga
... he's simply not quick enough getting the ball away.

How to illustrate you either didn't watch the game or know literally nothing about rugby.

Still hurting aren't you Paul.

You'll get over it eventually.

Quote:

jimfitz12
Would love to know how long this Paul Herox bloke has been a Sarries fan?

About a decade. Spent comfortably £60K in that time on tickets, hospitality, travel and sponsorship.

How about you. Does being unquestioning follower make you a better supporter.
I want Saracens to be the very best they can be and maximise their considerable potential.
If we were 10th and that's what we're doing I'd be happy.
We're mid table and performing way under the sum of our parts. Comfortable with mediocrity? good for you.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

jimfitz12
Would love to know how long this Paul Herox bloke has been a Sarries fan?

About a decade. Spent comfortably £60K in that time on tickets, hospitality, travel and sponsorship.

How about you. Does being unquestioning follower make you a better supporter.
I want Saracens to be the very best they can be and maximise their considerable potential.
If we were 10th and that's what we're doing I'd be happy.
We're mid table and performing way under the sum of our parts. Comfortable with mediocrity? good for you.

You are full of @#$%& fella.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

jimfitz12
Would love to know how long this Paul Herox bloke has been a Sarries fan?

About a decade. Spent comfortably £60K in that time on tickets, hospitality, travel and sponsorship.

How about you. Does being unquestioning follower make you a better supporter.
I want Saracens to be the very best they can be and maximise their considerable potential.
If we were 10th and that's what we're doing I'd be happy.
We're mid table and performing way under the sum of our parts. Comfortable with mediocrity? good for you.

Just trying to get a gauge as to why you are so thoroughly depressing, now I know why. Joined us in the glory years so weren't there for the early 2000's where it went weeks before a win.

Sarries will be back, but coming on here and talking absolute nonsense like your god's gift isn't the way fella. Faz was brilliant today, and he is not the issue, anyone with two eyes can see that.

We will get there, needs the fans to get behind them over the next few weeks.

Toga, ruck speed today:
0-3 75%
3-6 16%
6+ 9%

Literally incontrovertible facts for those who lack the basic ability to watch a game and see the 9 providing quick service all game. You're hilarious.

Quote:

PaulHerox
Toga, ruck speed today:
0-3 75%
3-6 16%
6+ 9%

Literally incontrovertible facts for those who lack the basic ability to watch a game and see the 9 providing quick service all game. You're hilarious.

I'm hilarious and you're a bullshitter.

I know which one I prefer.

Place we lost this game was in the pack... whats even worse is thats where weve invested which shows how poor the balance has been.

If we resign Isiekwe and Theo Mac I may spontaneously combust...we need some huge units so we have ball carriers. isiekwe got the ball in their half today and got stagefright.

jimfitz12 I've supported Saracens through success and failure. I lack the time-machine to return to a date at which my support would have been acceptable to you.

Quote:

JK12
Place we lost this game was in the pack... whats even worse is thats where weve invested which shows how poor the balance has been.
If we resign Isiekwe and Theo Mac I may spontaneously combust...we need some huge units so we have ball carriers. isiekwe got the ball in their half today and got stagefright.

Morgan is about the same size as our other backrowers but has an appetite to carry. Lake likewise. Martin too if he's ever fit so you can certainly say that the coaches are looking at that issue if the recruitment rumours are correct.
Obviously there's a trade off.

For comparison who were the "big beasts" carrying for Bath today.
I don't disagree with you at all but how the players fit into the plan is obviously a big part of how successful we'll be.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:11:30:19:10:30 by PaulHerox.

Bath are an incredibly physical team and getting quick ball against them is something barely anyone has managed since Van Gramm turned up.
Both Theo’s very good aside from a blip just before half time.
Felt we got very little from Christophe Ridley, some very costly outcomes from decisions that actually should have gone our way.
We mostly defended very well.
And I believe we are still comfortably leading points scorers in the league, so our attack can’t be that bad!

Some people here go back to the days when clearing dog turds off the Southgate pitch was an important part of the pre-match preparations. Some of us even played on that pitch.

Saracens are in a good place - be a bit more humble, patient and have some faith in a senior leadership team that have forgotten more about rugby since they ate their breakfast this morning than you have acquired since you started watching rugby 10 years ago.

The way this Paul bloke goes on you would think we were rock bottom

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

TommyKentish
Yeah I think that criticism of Faz is overdone. He was doing his best to spread it wide a lot today, even on our own line. I get what people are saying about the kicking to Caluori

First 40 he was. Thereafter I genuinely didn't see that. I saw a player who managed us into an increasingly kick orientated game that we were losing.

The thing is we had seen exactly the same happen to Caluori v Saints where it was also our main attacking plan.
It's the Tom Willis thing all over again. We have a genuinely World Class direct carrier. Lets just always run him direct and hope he makes metres.
Where's the subtlety, where's the variation, it really isn't a lot to ask of a coaching team as experience as ours but lacking that we just make our most potent weapons predictable and easy(er) to close down.

He kicked more, yes, but that was on the back of the forwards losing the physical game. Willis going off and playing so hard in the first half didn’t help that part. But I distinctly remember him still spreading the play when it was on, even once in front our own posts with heavy pressure baring down on him and the backs made a break, only to kick it away on the wing, which happened a few times and exposed our lack of pace there today.

Malins looked so much more comfortable on the wing. Unfortunately Daly still a bit off the pace and was very lucky with his belated mark call in 5he second half when he stumbled into touch.
I thought the long range penalty was the right call, it just never looks like it when we miss.

Quote:

The Bard
Bath are an incredibly physical team and getting quick ball against them is something barely anyone has managed since Van Gramm turned up.
Both Theo’s very good aside from a blip just before half time.
Felt we got very little from Christophe Ridley, some very costly outcomes from decisions that actually should have gone our way.
We mostly defended very well.
And I believe we are still comfortably leading points scorers in the league, so our attack can’t be that bad!

I didn't want to mention Ridley but I thought he was, what's the right word... selective with his interventions. Mind you, I still haven't forgiven him for awarding Leicester that last minute penalty try at Welford Road four years ago.

He makes dickson look elite...thats how bad ridley is

Quote:

The Bard
Bath are an incredibly physical team and getting quick ball against them is something barely anyone has managed since Van Gramm turned up.
Both Theo’s very good aside from a blip just before half time.
Felt we got very little from Christophe Ridley, some very costly outcomes from decisions that actually should have gone our way.
We mostly defended very well.
And I believe we are still comfortably leading points scorers in the league, so our attack can’t be that bad!

Ridley has an uncharacteristically poor game all round today I felt. It was a bit of a free for all. We might have gotten lucky with some forward passes for our first try, Bath I felt we’re lucky with Noah being taken out in the air for the interception.

We do indeed have a good points tally, we are putting some teams to the sword and even when we lose where getting BP tries. It seems we just need to start tightening up other key areas to beat the likes of Bath and Saints.

The trouble, Paul, is the way you frame your opinions, and that's all they are on a forum. You almost always sound as though what you are saying is gospel and regularly infer that the coaching is poor, and that if the rest of us can't see that we are missing something. Basically you come across as superior, sorry.

I think most people on here would agree that most of your comments on here today about Owen are misplaced and without foundation; you seem to have an agenda against him.

Quote:

Eric Browett
The trouble, Paul, is the way you frame your opinions, and that's all they are on a forum. You almost always sound as though what you are saying is gospel and regularly infer that the coaching is poor, and that if the rest of us can't see that we are missing something. Basically you come across as superior, sorry.
I think most people on here would agree that most of your comments on here today about Owen are misplaced and without foundation; you seem to have an agenda against him.

Couldn't agree more

As an aside, does anyone know why we rarely hear from McCall or the other coaches in a post match interview? Win or lose.

Quote:

The Bard
Malins looked so much more comfortable on the wing. Unfortunately Daly still a bit off the pace and was very lucky with his belated mark call in 5he second half when he stumbled into touch.
I thought the long range penalty was the right call, it just never looks like it when we miss.

Agree with the above. Max’s best game since rejoining.

Also agree with the other comments re Ridley. Usually I rate him, but today he seemed frustratingly blind to Bath defenders rolling into IVZ all afternoon

Can i join the pi55ing competition pls...

30 years a fan... spent a fortune. Seen good.. seen awful seen everything between. Celebrated staying up. Remember those days?

Seen a rotation of coaches and big name stars, the next best thing and some absolute wage stealers.

I think certain people on here need to learn some humility. We have no right to win every week. Weve had to learn to manage our resources a little more legally. Yeah I said it. We got busted. Remember when we had an international bench not an academy one?

Certain posters on here want the old guard gone then when they get dropped for youth.. they arent good enough. Play a wider expansive game they cry.. and when it doesnt quite happen they they are again.

Apparently all we need is a big dirty lock or 2 and a thug at 8. Who knew. Easy innit.

We have a new attack coach bedding in.. some tired internationals we had to play.. we were missing our captain and most consistent hooker. We ran with the champions for 70 mins despite some unusual calls from Sir and a foot in mouth moment (self inflicted).

But dont worry Dirty B will be along soon with another rumour and all be be good in messageboard land.

Like i said you are all such experts rock up at training and offer the coaches your time. Im sure they will be too polite to actually tell you where to go. Me less so.

None of us will hurt more than the 23 that came up a bit short today. Not one of you would utter a word of your critique to their face would you.

I don't want to get into any conversation about whose opinion is more valid than anybody else.
Here are a few comments of mine about the game.
I'm disappointed we lost. In the first half we were by far the better side & Bath were largely on the scoreboard through our errors - especially that unnecessary long pass which gifted the interception.
Losing Tom Willis didn't help, but after half time we stopped dominating possession & the ruck. Arguably more significantly, we totally lost the ref which meant that every marginal call for a period of 20 mins went in Bath's favour.
Bath capitalised on both our loss of physical dominance & the assistance of sir very effectively.
We kicked away possession with space in front of the kicker too often. This was not down to one player.
Our lineout was not as good as it should have been. It's easy to focus on the hooker but
if nobody gets airborne, there is more going on.
Having said all that - we really could have won this game & a draw would not have been an unfair result either.

Eric I think posting after a match is probably not a great idea for me and sometimes a response is an exaggeration of how one feels.
My experience is its always a softer conversation in person than it appears on screen, normally with greater balance too as there's a proper to and fro.

I have huge respect for what Farrell has done for this club especially when we were relegated but I also feel that all players have their time and maybe we should be looking more to the future.

Of course we all see things differently.
Enjoy the season.

Grow up Saracen.

People are entitled to their opinion. Doesn’t have to always be and endless ball of positivity and #inmarkwetrust.

I’ve called rubbish and outstanding performances out in the last 24 months and today we were somewhere in the middle. To be honest I thought we played well and bath were pretty poor by their standards.

Nothing wrong also with saying we just aren’t at that level at the moment.

Quote:

TommyKentish
As an aside, does anyone know why we rarely hear from McCall or the other coaches in a post match interview? Win or lose.

Not sure but if you check in on the BBC match coverage about half an hour after the first match report they often update with comments that are obviously post match.

Grow up?

Is that it? Where do I say any of that?

I travelled in hope that today wouldnt be a spanking. Because thats where we are at the moment. It wasnt.

Is everything rosy? No it isnt. but the combined knowledge on here with there endless stream of rugby interlect who think they have all the answers have no more entitlement to an opinion than I do.

The fractured nature of the Prem season is a disaster. This one off weekend just dropped in after many of the players have spent weeks away from the club, getting flogged in test matches, and then they come back with little time to adjust, prepare, recuperate and reintegrate. And on this difficult round of the championship Saracens get Bath.

If you want to see what a club without players like George, Goode, Barritt, Tompkins, and Farrell at their core looks like then watch Quins.

There is still something very special about Saracens, and it's something that has been very hard earned and very difficult to acquire. A team like Quins would kill to have a player like Farrell. We're lucky he's one of us, so covet him while he's still playing and pray that he stays with the club when he decides to start coaching.

The point around legally managing our resources is fair Sarrie1971 although I will say in the recent independent report done on the prem club’s finances we still came top in salary expenditure. It’s interesting, we’re no doubt paying some of our older players a decent wedge along with our plethora of internationals but if we miss top four again we need to look at that expenditure and change it up a bit I think. I’m not someone who expects silverware and finals every year but if you’re spending the most in a 10 club league then top four is really a minimum goal.

With that said, I think everyone could do with calming down a bit stop throwing insults about. We’re talking about rugby here, it’s meant to be fun at the end of the day!

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

TommyKentish
As an aside, does anyone know why we rarely hear from McCall or the other coaches in a post match interview? Win or lose.

Not sure but if you check in on the BBC match coverage about half an hour after the first match report they often update with comments that are obviously post match.

Ah cheers, there is a bit there. Just weird we never see him on TNT.

Quote:

saracen1971
Grow up?
Is that it? Where do I say any of that?

I travelled in hope that today wouldnt be a spanking. Because thats where we are at the moment. It wasnt.

Is everything rosy? No it isnt. but the combined knowledge on here with there endless stream of rugby interlect who think they have all the answers have no more entitlement to an opinion than I do.

Ooh that was almost a small critique there

I do agree that Paul can be a bit pious with his phrasing. And no- neither him, you or me or anyone have more entitlement to an opinion.

But people are allowed to say they think we need grunt- I happen to completely agree

People are allowed to say we were poor today- I don’t agree

People are allowed to say they thought faz was poor today- I don’t agree

I don’t thought noah was poor today- some may disagree.

Quote:

TommyKentish
We’re talking about rugby here, it’s meant to be fun at the end of the day!

Ah yes Tommy, but didn’t you hear Saracen just now? You’re not allowed to talk about rugby. You just have to clap like a seal at all times. Not sure why he’s bothered reading others’ opinions when all can be dismissed on the basis that none of us are professional coaches, but there we go.

Quote:

#wolfpack1

Quote:

TommyKentish
We’re talking about rugby here, it’s meant to be fun at the end of the day!

Ah yes Tommy, but didn’t you hear Saracen just now? You’re not allowed to talk about rugby. You just have to clap like a seal at all times. Not sure why he’s bothered reading others’ opinions when all can be dismissed on the basis that none of us are professional coaches, but there we go.

And where did I say that?

Oh the irony about bothering to read posts.

‘the combined knowledge on here with there endless stream of rugby interlect who think they have all the answers’

Look Saracens1971, I started the club back in 1876 so I know everything, combined knowledge, all the rugby intersect, my endless stream of answers so you can do one.

If you don’t want to read other people’s opinions then don’t come on a message board where people post their opinions.
I expected a loss today v Bath but I’m disappointed with the way we conceded soft points via Arundell’s intercept and a rolling driving maul and an outrageously soft quick tap pen try.
C U next Tuesday.

Quote:

chinjy
‘the combined knowledge on here with there endless stream of rugby interlect who think they have all the answers’
Look Saracens1971, I started the club back in 1876 so I know everything, combined knowledge, all the rugby intersect, my endless stream of answers so you can do one.

If you don’t want to read other people’s opinions then don’t come on a message board where people post their opinions.
I expected a loss today v Bath but I’m disappointed with the way we conceded soft points via Arundell’s intercept and a rolling driving maul and an outrageously soft quick tap pen try.
C U next Tuesday.

Classy.

Obscenity - the refuge of the poorly educated.

"don’t come on a message board"

Sage advice

A great game of rugby and unfortunately we lost, it's interesting that we all have different views and that's what makes this forum interesting for me. Its a shame when it starts to decend into slanging match but I get that passions run high.
Just my opinion Bath look ahead of the league and I do agree that we need some more grunt/heft in the team.
The players left it all out there today and I was screaming the team on with my vocal chords in bits lol. There will be highs and low following our team and we get upset when they lose, my NFL team has caused me hair loss over the years lol.

Bath fan so feel free to disregard this, but:

1. Farrell (and Daly, and maybe also Tompkins) are still excellent but if they are asked to play 80 mins they will fade.
2. Farrell chirped at the ref a lot while not being captain to the point that the commentary team and Ben Spencer raised it. Either make him captain or tell him to focus on his own game.
3. McFarland, Dan, Gonzalez, Earl are incredible players who terrify opposition.
4. Equally... IvZ does not.
5. I dunno guys I think if Maro is playing you probably win. I wouldn't overthink this.

Quote:

hasta
Bath fan so feel free to disregard this, but:
1. Farrell (and Daly, and maybe also Tompkins) are still excellent but if they are asked to play 80 mins they will fade.
2. Farrell chirped at the ref a lot while not being captain to the point that the commentary team and Ben Spencer raised it. Either make him captain or tell him to focus on his own game.
3. McFarland, Dan, Gonzalez, Earl are incredible players who terrify opposition.
4. Equally... IvZ does not.
5. I dunno guys I think if Maro is playing you probably win. I wouldn't overthink this.

I think your comments are fair. I expected a close game and Bath to edge it. Your comments are fair. There were some odd decisions by the referee. The TMO fuss about the penalty being taken in the wrong place was frustrating for the crowd. Was it the grounding, forward pass, knock on? Ridley didn’t want to give it and didn’t, luckily we scored straight afterwards.
For me, our kicking game was poor, allowed an excellent Arundell to challenge or Bath to run it straight back. With backs like Bath’s it was inevitable that we were under pressure.

Enjoy the rest of the season

For me the key thing is our failure to add a true game changer outside of Willis and JMG in last 4 years is a major red flag re our recruitment. We have got zero bank for our buck from Our centre signing sSpink , Hartley and Cinti , Tizzard resigning was a major faux pas. Also relying on IVZ and resigning Simpson was paying rents on the dollar for a key role.

Teams are rebuilding and having success in 12 months , we arent seeing that currently. Since 2022 eams have slowed our ball down and only sporadically have we had a 2nd plan... that needs a complete review imo.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

Toga
... he's simply not quick enough getting the ball away.

How to illustrate you either didn't watch the game or know literally nothing about rugby.

This is the kind of attitude that really winds me up. We have already been repeatedly told by Paul and a couple of his acolytes, that certain players are underperforming and our coaches are rubbish. Now, apparently, if we disagree with him we know nothing about rugby.

Well, I've often admitted I'm not a tactical expert, but I have been following Sarries for over 25 years through thick and thin, and prefer to look for the positives that my inexpert eye can see, rather than being constantly critical, even after a disappointing result. And no, in answer to an earlier question, Paul, I don't feel I have to justify that I've seen "plenty of positives" by listing them for you. Try accepting that we're not, at the moment, the multiple championship team we were a few years ago and concentrate on the good stuff you see with your expert eye. I think you'll find it uplifting! I know many of the rest of us would.

Quote:

Roger G
This is the kind of attitude that really winds me up

Facts wind you up? weird.
If I said "The problem with Dan is he didn't carry enough in this game" you'd probably think "that doesn't seem right based on the game I watched I feel he carried a lot" then you might well check the stats and see he was our top carrier and think with justification "that view isn't subjective it's nonsense"
If someone says "a problem with Van-Zyl these past seasons is he slows the ball down too much" then they'd be right and that is demonstrable through stats.
To say he "is simply not quick enough getting the ball away" about a specific game in which a top opposition were continually spoiling at the breakdown and he was still part of us literally having one of the greatest amounts of 0-3 ruck ball in the last couple of seasons is beyond odd that's pathological.

You say that I should focus on the positives and yet have a very odd response to me asking if you could share what encouraged you. "justify"? No I'm just interested in how you saw the game.
Who knows those views might have been an interesting jumping off point for a discussion about the game which is what a forum is about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:01:08:43:25 by PaulHerox.

A great point well made Rodger! I hate to point out the obvious, but Paul has supported us since 2015, when we were at the peak of our powers. Bar the anomaly of the salary cap years, he has only ever been with us at the height or European Rugby. I like you, have been a proud fan since the beginning of the Vicarage Road days where I went with my dad hopeful of keeping the game within 10, let alone getting the win.

We went toe to toe with the champions and arguably one of the best teams in Europe. Yes, we fell short due to some lapses in concentration, but our squad will learn and with a few big brutes signing next season, matches with some excellent youngsters the future is nothing but bright.

Quote:

hasta
Bath fan so feel free to disregard this, but:
1. Farrell (and Daly, and maybe also Tompkins) are still excellent but if they are asked to play 80 mins they will fade.
2. Farrell chirped at the ref a lot while not being captain to the point that the commentary team and Ben Spencer raised it. Either make him captain or tell him to focus on his own game.
3. McFarland, Dan, Gonzalez, Earl are incredible players who terrify opposition.
4. Equally... IvZ does not.
5. I dunno guys I think if Maro is playing you probably win. I wouldn't overthink this.

As a neutral I think Hasta’s comments are very fair.

On point 2 even Tompkins was joining in with being gobby with the referee.
Ridley really should have told Faz to ‘shut up’ and direct conversation through the Captain.

Point 4 - McCall obviously sees things in IvZ that I don’t.

Point 5 - with Maro and JG think you would have won.

Other points:-
💯 agree with Toga’s comment on the Fractured Prem season. One game in between AIs and Europe is crazy, especially with short turnarounds etc.

Difficult to judge Cinti as first full game in a while?

Kicking to Calouri, tactic needed changing within game when he became obvious he was getting no change from Arundell yesterday!

Malins seemed sharper.

Quote:

MidlandsSarrie
The TMO fuss about the penalty being taken in the wrong place was frustrating for the crowd. Was it the grounding, forward pass, knock on? Ridley didn’t want to give it and didn’t, luckily we scored straight afterwards.

Watching on the TV he made the right call, it wasn't that the pen was taken in the wrong place, the ball was dropped by the Sarries prop but the replays were whether Russell was offside when the ball was tapped. It turns out that he was (just) hence Sarries getting another pen, which was scored.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Appreciate I am only a visitor on to this forum, but a few thoughts on some of the comments on this post.

It doesn’t make the blind bit of difference to me how long you have followed Rugby (I remember watching Saracens v Leicester at Bramley Road!), we are all entitled to our opinions, it’s a discussion board!!
However certain Rugby Values should be adhered to and personal attacks on other posters and C U Next Tuesday comments have no place on these boards!

+1

Last season saw us taking back our on field discipline and with Maro and Van-Zyl in charge our interactions with the referee became less adversarial and confrontational.
We had odd games where Tompkins and even George had moments but I thought we'd moved on from winding up the man who makes the decisions.
Several comments above suggesting the referee got fed up with us and started to referee accordingly. This season will be hard enough without that.

Who was official captain when IVZ went off? Probably was Owen. But we really needed someone in the refs ear in the second half when he gave Bath a penalty from a maul we had supposedly pulled down and it was a Bath player on the floor causing the problem.
You could hear Owen shouting at him from a long way back in the stands with 10 mins to go.
I think Ridley is the best ref in the league, but he wasn’t great yesterday and the penalty he gave Bath just before half time when their player was clearly off his feet turned out to be very significant.

Quote:

hasta
Bath fan so feel free to disregard this, but:
1. Farrell (and Daly, and maybe also Tompkins) are still excellent but if they are asked to play 80 mins they will fade.
2. Farrell chirped at the ref a lot while not being captain to the point that the commentary team and Ben Spencer raised it. Either make him captain or tell him to focus on his own game.
3. McFarland, Dan, Gonzalez, Earl are incredible players who terrify opposition.
4. Equally... IvZ does not.
5. I dunno guys I think if Maro is playing you probably win. I wouldn't overthink this.

If Faz wasn’t chirping at the ref then I’d be worried to be honest! It can annoy the ref but I don’t think Ridley minded yesterday and it has to be said he didn’t have his best match for either side.

Re Maro, you may be correct but you could say the same of Underhill, Pepper, Lawrence and/or Carreras. Simple truth is you have a game plan and execute is very well no matter the personnel for you or the opposition and it’s one that has worked against us many times (by other clubs too) in the past few seasons. Something we need to work out really.

Quote:

tigersimon
Appreciate I am only a visitor on to this forum, but a few thoughts on some of the comments on this post.
It doesn’t make the blind bit of difference to me how long you have followed Rugby (I remember watching Saracens v Leicester at Bramley Road!), we are all entitled to our opinions, it’s a discussion board!!
However certain Rugby Values should be adhered to and personal attacks on other posters and C U Next Tuesday comments have no place on these boards!

Much appreciated view point from a Tigers fan!?

I agree that it shouldn't matter if you have been supporting Sarries for 2 games or 25 seasons, everyone is allowed to have their own opinion on this forum, that is 100% correct. What we are suggesting is some posters seem to lack any perspective which is hugely frustrating, and IMHO that comes within having supported this club for a number of years.

Pretty sure Owen took over, and from his on-field comments he wasn't impressed with some of the decisions, but managed to contain his feelings to a large extent.

Ridley wasn't great yesterday. For example, Bath's successful jackallers were often stretched so long that being "on their feet" was a physical impossibility. Also when Russell knocked on then played the ball while on the ground only a scrum to Sarries was awarded rather than the deserved penalty.

However, I freely admit that I only watch games with one eye, so there may have been equally unjust decisions in our favour, so I wouldn't blame Ridley for the loss.

The Bard,

I think Owen took over from IVZ but by that point I wouldn’t have been surprised if Ridley had enough of Faz’s constant chat so any future communication then becomes less effective?

Quote:

JK12
For me the key thing is our failure to add a true game changer outside of Willis and JMG in last 4 years is a major red flag re our recruitment. We have got zero bank for our buck from Our centre signing sSpink , Hartley and Cinti , Tizzard resigning was a major faux pas. Also relying on IVZ and resigning Simpson was paying rents on the dollar for a key role.

Some interesting observations.

The centre one is tricky as we've had a combination of injuries in those centres which has limited how much we've seen of them. I'm not sure what the solution is. Trust the recruitment and process or rip it up and start again. In all the rumours I'm yet to hear that we're linked with any backs which makes sense given the quality coming through.

How many game changers should a side have. It's tricky as you can become too reliant on them. An issue we saw against Quins with Willis and you could make the case that him going off yesterday was a big sliding doors moment too.
Were there players or positions you were thinking of particularly where we could do with adding that talent.
Those game changers are also reliant on how you use them. Arundell was largely so visible as we kept feeding his wing in our attempts to get our own potential game changer in.

I believe the Simpson call was due to a last minute change of decision by Quirke.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:01:09:02:31 by PaulHerox.

Quote:

tigersimon
The Bard,
I think Owen took over from IVZ but by that point I wouldn’t have been surprised if Ridley had enough of Faz’s constant chat so any future communication then becomes less effective?

Strange. On the ref mike (when it was working) I heard Ridley talking in a very civilised way with players from both sides. At no time did I get the feeling that he'd had enough of anybody.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Simple truth is you have a game plan and execute is very well no matter the personnel for you or the opposition and it’s one that has worked against us many times (by other clubs too) in the past few seasons. Something we need to work out really.

+1

I also feel “years supported” is a complete and utter irrelevance.

I started at Bramley Rd avoiding the dog s*** too, then Enfield, then Watford, now Copthall, been all over Europe, was at some of the best games we’ve ever had (Lynagh v Newcastle drop goal? Only bettered by Hugh’s drop goal v Biarittz! Martin Johnson red card , Francesco Leonelli try v Ospreys) and some of our worst (Ospreys away in Cardiff stands out as a particular hosing, cup final v Saints the most heartbreaking), but none of this makes my opinion more valuable than someone who has been supporting the club for 10 years or even 5 years.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and this is a place to express it.

IMO longevity and watching Kensuke Iwabuchi and Nicky Little and co back in the day doesn’t make any difference in terms of frustration with 2025. We’re in a different place now, with an expensive squad and yet are struggling to get above mid table in a poor league. It isn’t “disloyal” or “short termist” to suggest reasons why you think that might be the case.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:01:10:50:12 by #wolfpack1.

Darktagnan - +1

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

Quote:

tigersimon

Quote:

hasta
Bath fan so feel free to disregard this, but:
1. Farrell (and Daly, and maybe also Tompkins) are still excellent but if they are asked to play 80 mins they will fade.
2. Farrell chirped at the ref a lot while not being captain to the point that the commentary team and Ben Spencer raised it. Either make him captain or tell him to focus on his own game.
3. McFarland, Dan, Gonzalez, Earl are incredible players who terrify opposition.
4. Equally... IvZ does not.
5. I dunno guys I think if Maro is playing you probably win. I wouldn't overthink this.

As a neutral I think Hasta’s comments are very fair.

On point 2 even Tompkins was joining in with being gobby with the referee.
Ridley really should have told Faz to ‘shut up’ and direct conversation through the Captain.

Point 4 - McCall obviously sees things in IvZ that I don’t.

Point 5 - with Maro and JG think you would have won.

Other points:-
💯 agree with Toga’s comment on the Fractured Prem season. One game in between AIs and Europe is crazy, especially with short turnarounds etc.

Difficult to judge Cinti as first full game in a while?

Kicking to Calouri, tactic needed changing within game when he became obvious he was getting no change from Arundell yesterday!

Malins seemed sharper.

On IVZ I think the main thing McCall has not seen is another option on the market that is significantly better than IVZ. That’s why we were after Quirke despite his injury record (which felt a bit desperate) and now are going for Williams.

Cinti agreed he’s only just coming back, I think though we have struggled to get the best out of him consistently. I don’t think he has the pace for wing and it may be that he’s just not what we need in the centres at the moment.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and this is a place to express it.

Absolutely right, and indeed length of support has no relevance (I admit I played this card and now regret it).

However, telling other people that they don't understand rugby simply because they have a different opinion is both arrogant and unacceptable.

It is also my opinion (others may differ) that repeating the same negative general thoughts (i.e. the coaches don't know what they are doing, the game plan is wrong, certain players should be moved on) so often, and at such great length that we all know what's coming, is somewhat tedious. It is very much putting me off contributing to what I'm increasingly seeing as a Sarries critics', rather than supporters', board.

Quote:

Roger G

Quote:

#wolfpack1
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and this is a place to express it.

Absolutely right, and indeed length of support has no relevance (I admit I played this card and now regret it).

However, telling other people that they don't understand rugby simply because they have a different opinion is both arrogant and unacceptable.

It is also my opinion (others may differ) that repeating the same negative general thoughts (i.e. the coaches don't know what they are doing, the game plan is wrong, certain players should be moved on) so often, and at such great length that we all know what's coming, is somewhat tedious. It is very much putting me off contributing to what I'm increasingly seeing as a Sarries critics', rather than supporters', board.

+1

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Roger G

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tigersimon
The Bard,
I think Owen took over from IVZ but by that point I wouldn’t have been surprised if Ridley had enough of Faz’s constant chat so any future communication then becomes less effective?

Strange. On the ref mike (when it was working) I heard Ridley talking in a very civilised way with players from both sides. At no time did I get the feeling that he'd had enough of anybody.

I think Ridley handled the constant chat very well and as a neutral thought he had a good game overall.

Ahh the old "length of support" debate. The length of my support is just under 6ft and she's my wife. On a slightly more serious note though, our opinions are certainly framed by our experiences so actually the period a supporter has experienced with Saracens will absolutely colour their opinions and reactions to adversity however small. A supporter who has only known the golden years will react very differently to the old hands, yes like me, who've seen it all before.
Ref Sunday, I enjoyed the game dotted with frustrations as it was. I thought the relative squad depths were on display with the 6 man Bath Bomb (ha) and it's ironic that as the club who first embraced the South African rugby talent in depth we are now lighter than many others in that regard when SA are sitting resplendent at the top of the rugby edifice and with a production line of frighteningly large schoolboys - what do they inject, I mean feed them with!!

My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.

I'm begging her for one more try!

All very interesting. As to where we are as a team did anyone watch Bris v Saints at the weekend? Bris beat Saints handily. Noting that Saints beat us handily and that we put 50 on Bris this is clearly a very tight league. I agree with another poster that, had Maro been playing, we might well have won the game. In closing we might well be mid table but we are only 4 points off second folks!

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BathMatt53

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MidlandsSarrie
The TMO fuss about the penalty being taken in the wrong place was frustrating for the crowd. Was it the grounding, forward pass, knock on? Ridley didn’t want to give it and didn’t, luckily we scored straight afterwards.

Watching on the TV he made the right call, it wasn't that the pen was taken in the wrong place, the ball was dropped by the Sarries prop but the replays were whether Russell was offside when the ball was tapped. It turns out that he was (just) hence Sarries getting another pen, which was scored.

The problem is, at the ground we hadn’t allé what he was looking at. There’s screens so couldn’t there be a way of trying the referee /TMO’s question

In a number of the recent internationals they had the ref mike for decisions over the speakers, certainly something that actually respects the people who turn up and reduces the frustration at the ref as they're almost always right but it can be hard to work out why in the stands!

I’m sure they’ve been doing that at prem matches too, just not the StoneX.

Lots of intresting takes and opinions on this thread. Just remeber we have not played our full strength team yet......

Is there any news on Willis’ injury?
Was a noticeable loss when he departed on Sunday, also made it clear we need a like for like replacement next season

DB - Looks like Ben has the week off...Do we expect to see anyone return this week? Tom W doing OK?

Hip injury touch & go - Rotation next 2 weeks and gearing up for full noise against Exeter on the 20/12 - Loz might be back

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dirtybertie
Lots of intresting takes and opinions on this thread. Just remeber we have not played our full strength team yet......

So what do you think that team is? Don’t think any of our opponents have been full strength either.

I cant imagine weve been far off... if its Loz and Tompkins at Centres after signing everyone we have I may scream..

Riccioni
George
Carre
Itoje
Tizzard
JMG
Earl
Willis
IvZ ( not my choice but coaches )
Farrell
Begun
Tompkins
Lozowski
Malins
Daly

I’m hoping this isn’t it but I can see your reasoning. That backline is completely lacking in pace. While Max had probably his best game for us on the weekend I still feel 15 is his best position. On the weekend there was a number on times where we got around their press but he and Daly didn’t have the gas to press the advantage.

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dirtybertie
Hip injury touch & go - Rotation next 2 weeks and gearing up for full noise against Exeter on the 20/12 - Loz might be back

Am I the only one who reads this as we are not taking Europe seriously this season?

Unfortunately the England contract rules make it impossible if we wanted to win two massive home league games.

I think it more just the Willis injury puts us in a bind and we’re forced to rest the internationals. Maro was rested last week, Earl possibly this week.

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TommyKentish
I’m hoping this isn’t it but I can see your reasoning. That backline is completely lacking in pace. While Max had probably his best game for us on the weekend I still feel 15 is his best position. On the weekend there was a number on times where we got around their press but he and Daly didn’t have the gas to press the advantage.

I think you raise a good point about the question of balance v getting all the best players in together.
For me this has been a bit of a conundrum in the backrow/the 6/2 split and now potentially in the back three too.

Daly and Malins are two very skilful players and both are great options to enable the best from others in attack and yet like you I'm not sure if playing them together is the best balance.
I'd quite like to see one start and one bench and rotate that. Having said that right now maybe injuries are dictating that selection. Would we really have preferred Hall starting on the wing and Malins the bench.

I'm very interested to know what either dirtybertie thinks is our strongest XV/23 or he is aware the coaches feel is.
I suspect on this forum we'd have very different ideas and it would also depend to a degree whether we're talking about one big game or to develop over this season and going forward.

For context re the past weekends game and where the level is Bath have picked the following to face Munster:

1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Quinn Roux, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Guy Pepper, 8 Miles Reid, 9 Ben Spencer ©, 10 Finn Russell (50), 11 Henry Arundell, 12 Cameron Redpath, 13 Max Ojomoh, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 15 Tom de Glanville

Replacements: 16 Kepu Tuipulotu, 17 Francois van Wyk, Thomas du Toit, 19 Ross Molony, 20 Ted Hill, 21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 Santi Carreras, 23 Sam Underhill

Carr-Smith aside that's a 23 with very few weaknesses and lots of quality.