Saracens v Gloucester Rugby Premiership Preview

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:06:02:18:19:28 by Darraghgirl.

Tom Willis v Lewis Ludlow...Ludlow has had an operation and is out for rest of season

Rapava-Ruskin against Street could decide this game.

Would expect a few changes for this one
Segun went off injured on Saturday, so Elliott will presumably start
They’ll want to give Lozowski a send off in one of the remaining home games so he may feature on Saturday

Didn’t Street fail an HIA Saturday so very unlikely to feature. Can’t see Loz featuring, as nice as it would be for him to have a good send off

Wasn't aware that Ludlow was re-injured. Will update now

I'm not sure, but it looked like Segun was taken off more as a precautionary measure and if there was an injury, it didnt look serious so I expect we'll see him back on Saturday? I don't think the commentators said why he came off, just that he'd been substituted.
Updated re. Street. Harvey Beaton probably next in line to feature, as Marco is injured i believe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:12:10:20:12 by saracensfan62.

Good preview. I think the more natural match-up for Malins is maybe Barton if he plays FullBack but we'll see.

This is going to be a really interesting one as it looks a lot like we'll have neither Street or Riccioni and the one thing that is definitely working for Glos right now is their scrum. My feeling is Carre is a better scrummager than Mawi so I'd definitely start him.
Great as he's been after taking a knock I think maybe rest or rotate Segun for this game with Elliott coming onto the wing.
Isiekwe had a very good game and this might be a game that suits his work-rate but I'd also be happy with McFarland back starting.
Otherwise the same.
I'd certainly not pick anyone based on giving them a send-off. There's still an outside chance of 4th and no place for sentiment in selection.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:12:10:58:12 by PaulHerox.

Best chance for Loz would be on the bench covering 10, 12, 13 - but I cant see them leaving Faz out.

As Steeet failed a HIA i believe the stand down period would mean he is definitely out. Assuming Marco is still injured that would likely mean Clarey starting and Tuimauga on to the bench. Not ideal against a strong Glos scrum.

If Roti is injured I would like to see Tobias starting and Jack Bracken in the 23. Otherwise, don't fix what isn't broken.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:12:12:29:00 by Sarrov.

I’m guessing Cinti is still in the mix?

Quote:

The Bard
I’m guessing Cinti is still in the mix?

He is but Tobias covers 15 and Hartley can shift to 13 if needed. I would rather see Bracken in the 23 shirt personally

Quote:

The Bard
I’m guessing Cinti is still in the mix?

Hopefully. Either he or Hall if fit on the bench. It's vital we have centre cover that enables our attacking game.
Cover at FullBack is less of an issue especially if Elliott comes into the XV. Equally Burke could move back there if needed.

Could be a tough day at the office for our front row. Time to study the Japan v SA Brighton Miracle game and focus on getting the ball out asap on our feed.

Hall had shoulder surgery so won’t be back this season.

Even if he wasnt injured, I'm not sure Hall in the centres makes much sense at this stage of the season.

Apart from England A he had had pretty much 0 minutes there this season as both Sarries and Ampthill have played him on the wing. Asking him to come on and defend the 13 channel (notoriously the hardest position to defend) in what are likely to be close fought and must win games is a big ask.

He has loads of potential but needs a run of Prem Cup/pre-season games at 13 first imo.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Hall had shoulder surgery so won’t be back this season.

Thanks I missed that. He's only just back from injury isn't he. With Segun finally getting a good run it feels like someone else has to be the "Duncan" unfortunately.

A shame regarding Lozowski. He's been such a stalwart and consistently good player for Sarries for so many years and it is gutting to see him leave. I hope he gets more regular game time next at Sale than hes had for us this season.
Thought cinti picked up a knock so not included him in the 23. Surely beaton is a stronger scrummager than Tuimauiga? I seem to remember tuimgauiga conceding 4 scrum penalties over a 20ish min period in one game and consequently got sin binned

It looked to me like a finger injury for Roti.

Nicsue, thats frustrating news. I hope we'll see him on saturday, if not I suppose we can expect Tobias to move to 11 and Jack Bracken to move to 23 on the bench.

Does anyone know if the CPZ will be active in the surrounding roads on Saturday? I think it's normally only valid until 6pm on a matchday

Quote:

SarriesSon
Does anyone know if the CPZ will be active in the surrounding roads on Saturday? I think it's normally only valid until 6pm on a matchday

I have never seen the CPZ operate after 6pm in the years it has been in operation so my informed guess would be that it is not operating this Saturday. Be interesting if someone lives in the area is able to confirm that the signs don’t say 16 May 2026.

Weather is set fair so ideal conditions for some great attacking rugby.

Saracens Men to play Gloucester Rugby:

1 Rhys Carre

2 Jamie George

3 Marcus Street

4 Maro Itoje (c)

5 Nick Isiekwe

6 Theo McFarland

7 Ben Earl

8 Tom Willis

9 Charlie Bracken

10 Fergus Burke

11 Rotimi Segun

12 Olly Hartley

13 Nick Tompkins

14 Noah Caluori

15 Max Malins

Replacements:

16 Theo Dan

17 Eroni Mawi

18 Alec Clarey

19 Hugh Tizard

20 Nathan Michelow

21 Ivan van Zyl

22 Owen Farrell

23 Tobias Elliott

Referee: Adam Leal (62nd Prem match)
ARs: George Selwood & Greg Macdonald
TMO: Peter Allan

The opposition:

15 George Barton

14 Will Joseph

13 Max Llewellyn

12 Seb Atkinson (C)

11 Ben Loader

10 Charlie Atkinson

9 Caolan Englefield

1 Val Rapava Ruskin

2 Seb Blake

3 Afo Fasogbon

4 Arthur Clark (VC)

5 Matías Alemanno

6 Freddie Thomas

7 Jame Venter

8 Will Trenholm

16 Jack Innard

17 Dian Bleuler

18 Ciaran Knight

19 Danny Eite

20 Deian Gwynne

21 Jack Clement

22 Mikey Austin

23 Josiah Edwards-Giraud

I am feeling quite optimistic about this game as long as all of our players front up. But I think they will as they don’t want the season to end early in a whimper. Also our bench seems quite a bit stronger than Gloucester’s.
Let’s make it 4 in a row!

The main threats come from a) the scrum but I’m hoping that as we’re full strength we can get parity and b) the centre pairing but I’m hoping Williams absence has a big impact on speed of ball that they get.

They certainly look stronger than their table position suggests so it will not be easy. Very surprised to see Marcus starting and pleasantly surprised Roti fit too.
Adam Leal reffed down there and he normally lets the game flow although he’s hotter on forward passes than most.

Bristol getting an absolute hammering, 61-14 at half time.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Bristol getting an absolute hammering, 61-14 at half time.

Ludicrous that they are probably going to lose by over 50 points and will come away with a point.

Yes that must have been the least deserved point of all time

Some of the recent results are certainly making the argument for the french bonus point (which overall I disagree with) more compelling.

I guess the current system gave Bristol something to play for after half time…

Today may well be the first time ever I actually want Quins to win! If they can win at home that would help us enormously in catching up Exeter.

Bristol were absolutely shocking, but we cannot take anything away from Northampton. That was a sublime performance from them

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
Today may well be the first time ever I actually want Quins to win! If they can win at home that would help us enormously in catching up Exeter.

Ha! I was saying precisely that to my Harlequins supporting potential future son-in-law. He intimated that the gloom at Twickenham if they beat Exeter would be palpable!

My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.

I'm begging her for one more try!

Thanks to Saints and especially Quins the possibility of 4th increasing. We got the 5 points that we needed which is the thing that counts at this stage.

The performance was not good. Mixed first half. Lots of white line fever by the forwards and numerous trys left out there. Second half was poor.
Itoje had a very good game. The rest was mixed. Feel Dan might get cited.

A fortnights time feels like the irresistible force of our ability to lose to rubbish Quins teams vs the immovable object of Quins inability to play more than one good game back to back.

Quote:

PaulHerox
Thanks to Saints and especially Quins the possibility of 4th increasing. We got the 5 points that we needed which is the thing that counts at this stage.
The performance was not good. Mixed first half. Lots of white line fever by the forwards and numerous trys left out there. Second half was poor.
Itoje had a very good game. The rest was mixed. Feel Dan might get cited.

A fortnights time feels like the irresistible force of our ability to lose to rubbish Quins teams vs the immovable object of Quins inability to play more than one good game back to back.

Why would Dan be cited? Bent at the waist, late dip from the carrier. At most a yellow all day.

We had the game won after 20 mins. Bonus point after 50 odd. Glos were coming off the back of two good wins and we rolled them over with little drama.

Why would Dan be cited? I felt he was unlucky to even be penalised - he couldn’t have got any lower, and was lower than the ball carrier who dipped into him.

Generally a very frustrating performance for me. We really should try to not revert to type just because a semi final is now firmly on - we look much better when we throw it around than when we do the one up runner and box kick thing.

And on the kicking :
1. Noah- do try to catch it rather than go for a one handed slap back.
2. Everyone (but especially Farrell)- Noah can do more than just field high balls. Give him a run with the ball too please.

Difficult conditions to chuck it around in. I wonder if we missed Tizard’s ruck clearing as well as Bracken wasn’t quite getting the ball away with the speed of previous weeks, greasy ball possibly an issue too.

I don’t see the case for a citing on Dan’s tackle, particularly in the context of Batley last week.

Oh and a word for Roti, superb again. He’s really got a superb all round game.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Difficult conditions to chuck it around in. I wonder if we missed Tizard’s ruck clearing as well as Bracken wasn’t quite getting the ball away with the speed of previous weeks, greasy ball possibly an issue too.
I don’t see the case for a citing on Dan’s tackle, particularly in the context of Batley last week.

Bracken had a dislocated shoulder not so long back. Then today he effectively got squashed between two Gloucester players. Must have hurt.

No idea why the Gloucester 15 wasn't taken off straight away - it was obvious that he didn't know what day it was. Wish him well.

Do we know what happened to the ref?

5 points is all that matters but that was a poor performance.

Nothing that has been so good in the last few weeks was evident in that win, against (I’m sorry to say) a rubbish Gloucester side.

Was a very early season Saracens performance.

We’ve looked so free and joyful in the last few weeks and playing without fear or needing to win, as the playoffs of been out of reach. I pray no they’re in reach again, that this isn’t the start of a reversion to type.

We certainly had the upper hand at scrum time which surprised me, as did the generally solid Gloucester defence but with Seb Atkinson at 12 I guess it should be. We got very little change all afternoon.
Having been surprised to see Marcus starting it was even more so to see him come back from the HIA. Riccioni was in the warm up squad so hopefully in the mix for Quins.
Now we know why Owen always comes on when Jamie goes off!

Incredibly disappointing crowd today. Given that we are on a good run and this was essentially a knock out game I have no idea why it was so low.

re the attendance - I don't think the 6.30 kick off helped. was also def an issue at the Showdown.
And the performance - we did OK. Glos Scrum was not the weapon we feared it might be. Their defence was actually very good but we showed rather limited ideas when we got close to their line & should have scored at least 2 more tries with a bit of nouse.
Our defence for 60+ minutes was very strong. The two tries at the end during Theo's binning - which I thought was marginal & absolutely not worthy of a citing as somebody has suggested - flattered Gloucester but at least gave their supporters some cheer on the way home.

Quote:

The Bard
Incredibly disappointing crowd today. Given that we are on a good run and this was essentially a knock out game I have no idea why it was so low.

Simples. 6:30.

Do we really not see the difference between coasting to a win when 30 points up and switching off when the game is still in the balance?

I think the size of the crowd is largely determined by start time. We have a large proportion who use public transport and travel quite long distances . You really need a more local crowd like Gloucester to make evenings work. I find it fascinating that the Top 14 finish their league season with all their clubs kicking off at 9pm - different culture as I am warming up my Ovaltine then!
I am not going to complain about the results this weekend as it is all looking set for a winner takes all at Sandy Park in 3 weeks time!

There weren’t many Gloucester fans and normally they travel well.

I got in at 11pm last night and i left straight after full time. My south coast season ticket neighbours didn’t come. I used to enjoy the post game fun. 6.30 is unreasonable kick off for anyone other than TV.

No more please

Agree with the above.

If TNT want to televise games they can bloody well pay for them.

For so long as clubs’ main revenue source is gate receipts, the clubs should tell TNT where to go and have all kick offs at 3pm on a Saturday

Quote:

#wolfpack1
Why would Dan be cited? I felt he was unlucky to even be penalised - he couldn’t have got any lower, and was lower than the ball carrier who dipped into him

Agree with that and others, I got that wrong. I only saw it live and not the replay.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
Generally a very frustrating performance for me. We really should try to not revert to type just because a semi final is now firmly on - we look much better when we throw it around than when we do the one up runner and box kick thing

Agree 100% and the concerning thing for me is that unlike last week I think the instruction to play differently was there from the start. That or something went wrong. Our carrying was very good until the last metres, our scrum had unexpected, to me at least, parity at least and dominance and we had lots of great ball which we used somewhat one-dimensionally. Our play-makers were far less involved and yet the space was there just like against Bears. Malins ran countless lines that were ignored and he must sigh almost as big a note pf despair as I do when Farrell comes on as it's the end of him and our attack getting any decent ball. Bracken was hesitant much of the game and whilst he wasn't bad I wonder if that suggests muddled thinking as a bigger issue.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
And on the kicking :
1. Noah- do try to catch it rather than go for a one handed slap back.
2. Everyone (but especially Farrell)- Noah can do more than just field high balls. Give him a run with the ball too please.

100%. I think that a good point was made by commentary that he needs to feel out how he's going to approach taking the ball ie whether he thinks he can beat the other jumper in which case he will try and claim it or not in which case he'll try and tap it back. It takes him a little time and also I think it's worth saying one of the Glos wingers he was jumping against was really good. A player issue is whilst we often have the net ready for taps backs when he does we frequently don't react but the opposition do. Feels like a switching off issue.

Quote:

#stonexjim
We’ve looked so free and joyful in the last few weeks and playing without fear or needing to win, as the playoffs of been out of reach. I pray no they’re in reach again, that this isn’t the start of a reversion to type.

That's exactly how I see it. I think the "shut up shop" attitude over the last 3 weeks has been the start of this and we're seeing the reversion to the "old Saracens" style that has failed so many times over the last seasons.
The only thing is I'm not sure it's so much the freedom from fear as just enjoying the rugby they're actually playing. The whole body language and positivity is hugely different depending on which players are on the field.

Quote:

#Sarrov
Do we really not see the difference between coasting to a win when 30 points up and switching off when the game is still in the balance?

Except we've been doing it when not coasting to a win. Better teams will claw back more points if we feed them opportunities for 30 minutes plus. We've lost the "defend the lead" portion of our plan by 3 points v Tigers and 7 v Glos. We only didn't lose it by 5 v Bears because Randall passed the ball to Elliott for a try in the dying minutes. We're also conceding numerous yellows in those periods under pressure defending.

Saints showed how to play Bears when you have a lead. You don't protect it you keep taking the game to them. Of course better teams will provide a sterner challenge but we're back to playing significant periods of the game with minimal impact from our game-changing players because we're playing without the ball or ignoring them whilst limited payers direct the play.

McCall, the coaches and some senior players are buying themselves breathing room whilst the team keeps delivering and makes Top 4 a possibility but you'd have to be simple not to see that the majority of this season our game plan and selection were wrong, based on history, sentiment and favourtisim and a reversion to that when the team has worked so hard would be unforgivable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:17:09:15:49 by PaulHerox.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
If TNT want to televise games they can bloody well pay for them.
For so long as clubs’ main revenue source is gate receipts, the clubs should tell TNT where to go and have all kick offs at 3pm on a Saturday

Problem is all the clubs very much need the TV revenue and the League isn't in a healthy enough position to be dictating terms.
I actually think that "paying for" nonPrime slots isn't a bad solution but the flipside of that is you'd get less on average for Prime or normal slots. Some teams would make out better, some worse I guess. We are already not subject to Friday games, which I actually like, because of the North Circular.

No way you can compare the Glos defence to Bristol! They were very physical and mobile throughout, credit to them. They offered absolutely nothing in attack which was the bigger surprise. Conditions didn’t help, damp with a swirling wind didn’t help proceedings.
Not a thriller but an excellent outcome with pressure on.

Here we go again.

Stains, at home, thrashing a ragged, demoralised Brizzle is not a yardstick for anything. A few weeks ago we put 85 points on Sale, away from home. Anyone can thrash really poor opposition. It's fun, and it helps with the table, but you can't learn anything from it.

We beat Brizzle, away from home, comfortably. We also conceded three tries in a first half where, as I think Healey said on the commentary, "It seems like when either side gets into the 22 they score". I'd far rather see us tighten up defensively and win pragmatically, than throw the ball around like nutters and lose 60-59.

It was a good but not great performance yesterday and, again, that was partly because of how we played without the ball, not with it. Yet again our defence was full of gaps and we fell off tackles. Fortunately Glassdoor were too cackhanded to take advantage, with most of their possession ending with a fumble or a pass into touch.

Also Glassdoor's 5-metre defence was excellent and prevented us winning much more comfortably.

'Here we go again' .

Agreed.

This board has been taken over by people with agendas and it's the reason I post very little anymore because I find it very frustrating.

A few comments on yesterday's game.
1. If you weren't there you wouldn't have appreciated that it was raining most of the time. This never shows on tv. A wet ball leads to mistakes and often a limited game plan.
2. Owen Farrell doesn't dictate the game plan. In the 2nd half he kicked, Nick T kicked, Hartley kicked, Malins kicked, I think even Nick I tried a grubber through on turnover ball. Fergus tried a couple of grubbers in the 1st half from recollection.
3. To infer that body language and positivity disappear when Owen comes on is garbage. Your agenda, Paul.
4. Gloucester defended very well.
5. Mark McCall admitted the performance wasn't as good as the last 3, he's not blind

Yes I’m slightly baffled by all this. I haven’t felt more comfortable in a match this season apart from the Sale ones. We were utterly untroubled by Glos and I thought the 14 points flattered them. Were we amazing? No. Plenty to work on but I’d rather go into the next few games with areas to work on than over confident stomped a team second from bottom. Defence is a big plus from the last two matches and something that needed work, we have been far too porous this season and last. I haven’t seen the last two Quins matches but they seem to have a few players back and are scoring a lot of tries again, so our defence needs to be on form.

I would also add, how often have we heard fans (usually England fans) moaning about not having a plan B? We’ve shown over the last 4 matches the ability to carve up when it’s on (we did for the first two tries yesterday, let’s not forget) but also the ability to shut teams down and grind it out. That includes against a Tigers team who tore Saints apart last week. While I would hope we can really take the game to Quins, they have been better at grinding plus down in the recent matches they’ve beaten us, so we need that dog back in us. Likewise Exeter away is likely to be a massively physical contest, not a free flowing attacking match.

Quote:

Eric Browett
'Here we go again' .
Agreed.

This board has been taken over by people with agendas and it's the reason I post very little anymore because I find it very frustrating.

A few comments on yesterday's game.
1. If you weren't there you wouldn't have appreciated that it was raining most of the time. This never shows on tv. A wet ball leads to mistakes and often a limited game plan.
2. Owen Farrell doesn't dictate the game plan. In the 2nd half he kicked, Nick T kicked, Hartley kicked, Malins kicked, I think even Nick I tried a grubber through on turnover ball. Fergus tried a couple of grubbers in the 1st half from recollection.
3. To infer that body language and positivity disappear when Owen comes on is garbage. Your agenda, Paul.
4. Gloucester defended very well.
5. Mark McCall admitted the performance wasn't as good as the last 3, he's not blind

I could flip the “agenda” argument around but I’m not going to.

I don’t think anyone has an agenda Eric, despite me absolutely thinking some of the comments are not accurate. Just merely that yesterday wasn’t very good and that we hope that against quins and Exeter we play like we have in the last three weeks. I think if we’re to beat Exeter we’ll need to do just that-although they were pants yesterday.

If we do sneak in I’ll be a very happy man at the Cinch in a few weeks. One of my absolute favourite away days

Evidently, these days, someone has to be to blame when we win by less than a million points.

Quote:

Eric Browett
'Here we go again' .
Agreed.

This board has been taken over by people with agendas and it's the reason I post very little anymore because I find it very frustrating.

A few comments on yesterday's game.
1. If you weren't there you wouldn't have appreciated that it was raining most of the time. This never shows on tv. A wet ball leads to mistakes and often a limited game plan.
2. Owen Farrell doesn't dictate the game plan. In the 2nd half he kicked, Nick T kicked, Hartley kicked, Malins kicked, I think even Nick I tried a grubber through on turnover ball. Fergus tried a couple of grubbers in the 1st half from recollection.
3. To infer that body language and positivity disappear when Owen comes on is garbage. Your agenda, Paul.
4. Gloucester defended very well.
5. Mark McCall admitted the performance wasn't as good as the last 3, he's not blind

Brilliant post! I must admit my heart sinks every time I see some of these agenda driven posts. Almost like they know better than the most successful club coach of all time. Laughable really. (Particularly from our favorite Owen lover)

6 weeks ago some posters were insisting our season was done, we should just play a team of kids for experience, we were miles away from being a decent side, half the squad was past it etc etc.

Today, we are bang in the playoffs race with 2 wins against teams who were/are above us and 2 comfortable wins against also rans. If you cant enjoy that...

Also, a note RE Hartley. Last two weeks he has been directly opposite players heavily in the England mix and imo outplayed them both. Fantastic to see him starting to realise his potential after some awful luck with injuries.

On a side note, bumped into Andy Onyeama-Christie wondering around the ground yesterday and he seemed in good spirits. I really do feel for him. Such a talented young man but injuries just keep coming. I hope to see him back in full swing come September/October time

Quote:

Sarrov
6 weeks ago some posters were insisting our season was done, we should just play a team of kids for experience, we were miles away from being a decent side, half the squad was past it etc etc.
Today, we are bang in the playoffs race with 2 wins against teams who were/are above us and 2 comfortable wins against also rans. If you cant enjoy that...

Also, a note RE Hartley. Last two weeks he has been directly opposite players heavily in the England mix and imo outplayed them both. Fantastic to see him starting to realise his potential after some awful luck with injuries.

100% agree on Hartley, we’ve seen a little bit of everything from him since he’s been picked consistently. Yesterday he was getting the hard yards done again which is exactly what was needed. One lovely popped up pass for Burke to run on to as well, I thought it was going to no one at first.

We did what we needed to do yesterday wasn’t the prettiest game but the weather was terrible.

Last season we had opportunities to seal knockout games and we fell short, a real sign of improvement for me will be us putting Quins to the sword.

Then we have a straight shoot out for the playoffs for Exeter.

Quote:

Sarrov
6 weeks ago some posters were insisting our season was done, we should just play a team of kids for experience, we were miles away from being a decent side, half the squad was past it etc etc.

and some of us were saying we had a really good team but needed to lean into the attack that would make the most of their abilities and that wouldn't happen without a change at 10 and 15. Apparently those people were wrong?

Great to hear about Onyeama-Chrisitie saracensfan62. Hopefully he has a good off-season, pre-season and next season.

Agree 100% about Hartley but it's all connected. We're generally both getting and using quick service. We have a 10 that is a proper threat at the line which holds defence, outside him we have centres who benefit from that but are both run, pass, kick threats themselves. It works really well.

Stumpy7780 is right that ultimately we are doing what we need to keep heading towards Top4 and then who knows what.
My concern is that against not the best teams, excluding Tigers we are not taking the chance to really hone our attack and be ruthless. To me it feels like we're continually playing the opposition back into the game. I'm afraid that will bite us against the best teams. I guess we'll see.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Likewise Exeter away is likely to be a massively physical contest, not a free flowing attacking match.

and yet the teams that have done better against them have been those have had attacks that were capable of moving them around and exposing their big forwards as much as matching them up front.
Yesterdays win by Quins was built in part on the quality of their kicking game which has been so effective against us in our last 4 or so meetings but it wasn't relentlessly spaffing the ball at one wing and hoping something comes from it and that's the difference.
Against Quins the last game we were still paying whatever the beta version of Saracens attacking rugby is called. If they give us as much possession this time I hope our ambition will stretch beyond kicking it back.

Quote:

Eric Browett
2. Owen Farrell doesn't dictate the game plan. In the 2nd half he kicked, Nick T kicked, Hartley kicked, Malins kicked, I think even Nick I tried a grubber through on turnover ball. Fergus tried a couple of grubbers in the 1st half from recollection.

Kicking in itself isn't wrong. Kicking defensively isn't wrong.
In the kicks you mention there are a variety of different kicks in different situations, some to relieve pressure, some to take advantage of space, some to attack. Only one of them is relentlessly spaffing the ball onto the wing no matter what the attacking picture with the only variation being the paucity of kick.

Malins makes a great spot of space in the 2nd half and calls for the kick which Farrell puts wider into traffic rather than at the acre of space right in front of him. It was more like a half committed kick to the wing than an identification of where the space was but maybe he was caught between kicking to Caluori yet again.
Kicking isn't an issue. Being a prescriptive kicker with poor execution is.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

Sarrov
6 weeks ago some posters were insisting our season was done, we should just play a team of kids for experience, we were miles away from being a decent side, half the squad was past it etc etc.

and some of us were saying we had a really good team but needed to lean into the attack that would make the most of their abilities and that wouldn't happen without a change at 10 and 15. Apparently those people were wrong?

Great to hear about Onyeama-Chrisitie saracensfan62. Hopefully he has a good off-season, pre-season and next season.

Agree 100% about Hartley but it's all connected. We're generally both getting and using quick service. We have a 10 that is a proper threat at the line which holds defence, outside him we have centres who benefit from that but are both run, pass, kick threats themselves. It works really well.

Stumpy7780 is right that ultimately we are doing what we need to keep heading towards Top4 and then who knows what.
My concern is that against not the best teams, excluding Tigers we are not taking the chance to really hone our attack and be ruthless. To me it feels like we're continually playing the opposition back into the game. I'm afraid that will bite us against the best teams. I guess we'll see.

The most important changes have been at 9, 10 and shifting Tompkins to 13. You have repeatedly posted about how Tompkins is better as a 12 and how quick the ruck speed was with IVZ so I wouldn't get too cocky!

RE "honing the attack" - only Bath and Saints have scored more tries and our ratio of tries scored/conceded is only bettered by Bath. We are also right up there for red zone efficiency (last time I saw the stat we were top). Seems pretty sharp to me.

Well Quins haven’t got a player like Caluori on the wing have they? And while we have been doing it a lot, it is only once we were ahead in the last two matches. Can you honestly tell me there is a more risk free option right now that is guaranteed to either a) get territory b) cause chaos or c) create a genuine try opportunity than creating a one on one in the air with Caluori and his opposite number? If we’re chasing a game then it’s madness to just do that but it’s not the position we have been in against Bristol and Glos.

My memory of the last few Quins matches where we lost is because they completely shut up shop and we tried to play but couldn’t get over the gainline. Also, specifically last time at the Stoop they “relentlessly spaffed” high bombs to our back 3 and we couldn’t catch a cold. But I don’t see why you’re looking at our past 4 matches and thinking we won’t play with ambition when we’ve scored 26 tries. Even yesterday we were trying, it just wasn’t coming off as well as we’d hope. I’m glad that when that happens we have been able to rely on our defence in the last two matches.

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PaulHerox

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Eric Browett
2. Owen Farrell doesn't dictate the game plan. In the 2nd half he kicked, Nick T kicked, Hartley kicked, Malins kicked, I think even Nick I tried a grubber through on turnover ball. Fergus tried a couple of grubbers in the 1st half from recollection.

Kicking in itself isn't wrong. Kicking defensively isn't wrong.
In the kicks you mention there are a variety of different kicks in different situations, some to relieve pressure, some to take advantage of space, some to attack. Only one of them is relentlessly spaffing the ball onto the wing no matter what the attacking picture with the only variation being the paucity of kick.

Malins makes a great spot of space in the 2nd half and calls for the kick which Farrell puts wider into traffic rather than at the acre of space right in front of him. It was more like a half committed kick to the wing than an identification of where the space was but maybe he was caught between kicking to Caluori yet again.
Kicking isn't an issue. Being a prescriptive kicker with poor execution is.

So when IVZ slows play, box kicks etc he isn't to blame as it's the game plan. When Faz repeatedly kicks cross field to Noah its because he is prescriptive? Pick a lane mate.

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TommyKentish
I would also add, how often have we heard fans (usually England fans) moaning about not having a plan B?

It's a really interesting point TommyKentish but is that what people really mean when they talk about a plan B.
My feeling is the talk of plan B comes when plan A isn't or hasn't worked and the team use plan B to win the game.
Is that what we're doing. I'm not convinced.

Plan A is working but we're switching to plan B which in the only sense that matters is working as we're winning.
Objectively though we're losing that period of the game and only our plan A performance is keeping us in it.

Put it another way. Are we winning the last 3 games starting with plan B and trying plan A for the last 30.

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Sarrov
So when IVZ slows play, box kicks etc he isn't to blame as it's the game plan. When Faz repeatedly kicks cross field to Noah its because he is prescriptive? Pick a lane mate.

I believe he's playing as he's being asked to by the coaches and I've never said otherwise Sarrov.
Whether that's because that's what suits the situation or that's what he can do now I'm less sure about, mate.

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Sarrov
The most important changes have been at 9, 10 and shifting Tompkins to 13. You have repeatedly posted about how Tompkins is better as a 12 and how quick the ruck speed was with IVZ so I wouldn't get too cocky!

The change at 9 hasn't been as significant as what's happened outside it this season.
Bracken's service is great and better than Van-Zyls and I've never said otherwise.
From the start of this season the rucks speed was the quickest it's been for three seasons. That was with Van-Zyl and is fact as opposed to opinion.

Tompkins is playing excellently at 13 but that doesn't mean he's not a better 12. Nor that the choice at 12 isn't having a significant impact on his performance.
Stick him at 13 outside Farrell again and come back to me about how he's a better at 13. You can look at the early season for the answer to that.
Give him a run with Bracken, Burke, and Cinti and I suspect you'd see him playing similarly well to now.

As we both said it's how the unit works as much as the individual parts.

I'd suggest me not thinking either Carre or Street were great signings is a more obvious and well deserved place to start getting into me!

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saracensfan62
On a side note, bumped into Andy Onyeama-Christie wondering around the ground yesterday and he seemed in good spirits. I really do feel for him. Such a talented young man but injuries just keep coming. I hope to see him back in full swing come September/October time

I hope you didn’t bump into his arm! No wonder the poor bloke keeps on getting injured!

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PaulHerox

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TommyKentish
I would also add, how often have we heard fans (usually England fans) moaning about not having a plan B?

It's a really interesting point TommyKentish but is that what people really mean when they talk about a plan B.
My feeling is the talk of plan B comes when plan A isn't or hasn't worked and the team use plan B to win the game.
Is that what we're doing. I'm not convinced.

I think a lot of fans don’t know what they mean when they say it or just think it’s easy to start chucking it around and scoring tries when forwards based rugby isn’t working.

Plan A wasn’t really working yesterday, as Smally said in his post match. We got the crucial 4th bonus point and only gave up tries once the game was well and truly won. It was similar against Tigers, the attacking game wasn’t clicking and we had to rely on our defence to get us over the line- if we had continued to attack and made mistakes Tigers would likely have picked us off. I would say it’s better to recognise early in the game that we need to switch tactics rather than wait until it’s an issue,

Also the game swings from attack to defence all the time, I think a calibration might be coming in the prem back towards defence and it is good to be ahead of the curve this time and at least have this in our locker, alongside the attacking plan A. We’ve spent a good few seasons trying to outscore the opposition but maybe sometimes it’d be better not to invite that sort of pressure on to ourselves.

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Paul Herox
Plan A is working but we're switching to plan B which in the only sense that matters is working as we're winning.
Objectively though we're losing that period of the game and only our plan A performance is keeping us in it.

Put it another way. Are we winning the last 3 games starting with plan B and trying plan A for the last 30.

Objectively we lost the period v Gloucester and won the period v Bristol and Tigers. I think that’s faulty logic anyway, you win the game based on the full 80. Playing fast and loose Bristol and even Glos (they had a couple of linebreaks from errors) is just inviting teams to get back in the game, especially as that is how teams are set up and expect matches to be played now. I’d say 3 of the teams above us though in Tigers, Bath and Exeter have that ability to grind out wins. It’s something we need in our arsenal just as much as the attacking game.

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TommyKentish
Plan A wasn’t really working yesterday, as Smally said in his post match. We got the crucial 4th bonus point and only gave up tries once the game was well and truly won.

I didn't listen to McCall so am not sure what he said but if he said the attack wasn't really working and that's why we switched to plan B I find that very depressing.
We were playing decently in the first half, very well in the first twenty in particular it was detail letting us down. The passes that were given to support runners in that first twenty weren't by the likes of Bracken, Earl etc when they could have put players in or at least given them a great chance. The whiteline fever at the end of the half when we had masses of space out wide.
Changing approach rather than backing the attack feels like the same attitude that saw us lose the final v Tigers and I guess that is the ghost that haunts me.
We cut a good Tigers team to shreds but fluffed our lines close in. Rather than backing the skills to come good we went to plan B and got sucker-punched in a close game. The problem is that switch is a mindset and it means even when chances come in attack we're too focused on a defensive game to take them.

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TommyKentish
Also the game swings from attack to defence all the time, I think a calibration might be coming in the prem back towards defence and it is good to be ahead of the curve this time and at least have this in our locker, alongside the attacking plan A. We’ve spent a good few seasons trying to outscore the opposition but maybe sometimes it’d be better not to invite that sort of pressure on to ourselves

I think you'll be disappointed. Game styles may be cyclical but the thing that steers them is how the game is refereed and it's more pro attack than ever and there's nothing in the pipelines currently that is going to redress that.
Have we spent a few seasons trying to outscore the opposition. When was that then. I don't think a team under McCall has ever been you score 2 we'll score 3.

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TommyKentish
Objectively we lost the period v Gloucester and won the period v Bristol and Tigers.

We lost that period 0-3 v Tigers and Randall's moment of madness sparred us losing 0-5 v Bears.

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TommyKentish
I’d say 3 of the teams above us though in Tigers, Bath and Exeter have that ability to grind out wins. It’s something we need in our arsenal just as much as the attacking game.

Do you think we beat any of those three this season by trying to grind out a win? I don't.
I think we just feed the beast v Chiefs and Tigers. Bath we could have turned over the last game if our attack wasn't so poor when we had total dominance in the first half.
I'd say for sure that Chiefs would like nothing more than for us to turn up in 3 weeks and make that game an arm-wrestle.

“I didn't listen to McCall so am not sure what he said but if he said the attack wasn't really working and that's why we switched to plan B I find that very depressing.“ I suggest you listen to his comments then. He said the attack wasn’t as good as recent matches but our defence and set piece was.

“Changing approach rather than backing the attack feels like the same attitude that saw us lose the final v Tigers and I guess that is the ghost that haunts me.” sounds like the opposite to me, we lost the final because we refused to change tack, we currently have two ways of playing.

“We lost that period 0-3 v Tigers and Randall's moment of madness sparred us losing 0-5 v Bears.” I see it as winning 7-3 (admittedly subjective interpretation of what the period is) and objectively you can’t qualify it with “a moment of madness”, we won it 7-5, that is a fact. The only reason Randall throws that pass is because of the pressure we put the Bears under. Or maybe I can qualify we only lost that period against Glos because the game was won and we took our foot off the gas…

Re Bath etc I think we beat those teams by having a well rounded game capable of attacking and defending. There will be periods where we need to be expansive and periods where we dig in, we’ve shown we can do both in recent weeks. Even then, the top two particularly after further ahead than us for a reason, it’s unlikely we beat them away if we make it through.

In Mark we have faith

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TommyKentish
sounds like the opposite to me, we lost the final because we refused to change tack, we currently have two ways of playing

What on earth are you talking about Tommy. We LOST the final.
Losing faith with our attack and reverting/changing to trying to defend our way to a win lost us the game it didn't win it for us.

Building a lead and defending a lead are not two ways of playing. The later part doesn't work without the first part. They are part of one plan.

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TommyKentish
Re Bath etc I think we beat those teams by having a well rounded game capable of attacking and defending. There will be periods where we need to be expansive and periods where we dig in, we’ve shown we can do both in recent weeks. Even then, the top two particularly after further ahead than us for a reason, it’s unlikely we beat them away if we make it through.

We certainly won't win if we feed their strengths.
Look at Chiefs win over Bath. That was built on keeping possession and dictating pace rather than allowing Bath to.
One of the reason Bath's strong bench had so little impact is they came on and were defending. Taking out the impact of play-makers like Russell and Spencer in that situation is invaluable. You don't do that by giving them possession for 30 minutes.
Of course you couldn't replicate that game and the cards were a factor but I think the general point stands that feeding strong attacks in the hope of out defending them is much harder these days.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:18:07:40:25 by PaulHerox.

Who else thinks Paul should take over at head coach? Clearly thinks he is more qualified than some of the best coaches to ever grace the game. I mean honestly.

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jimfitz12
Who else thinks Paul should take over at head coach? Clearly thinks he is more qualified than some of the best coaches to ever grace the game. I mean honestly.

He is allowed his opinions and is never rude or abusive. I disagree with 90% of what he types but that's the point of these boards imo

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The Bard

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saracensfan62
On a side note, bumped into Andy Onyeama-Christie wondering around the ground yesterday and he seemed in good spirits. I really do feel for him. Such a talented young man but injuries just keep coming. I hope to see him back in full swing come September/October time

I hope you didn’t bump into his arm! No wonder the poor bloke keeps on getting injured!

I really must be more careful, mustn't I! lol

“What on earth are you talking about Tommy. We LOST the final.
Losing faith with our attack and reverting/changing to trying to defend our way to a win lost us the game it didn't win it for us.”

Lol thanks for pointing that out Paul, I am in fact a moron unable to absorb basic facts. My point is we didn't change up how we played DURING the match when plan A wasn’t working.

“Building a lead and defending a lead are not two ways of playing. The later part doesn't work without the first part. They are part of one plan.”

Then why are you banging on about us losing periods when we’re defending leads (even though we’ve lost one of 3)?One plan (your words) has resulted in a 4 game winning streak that we haven’t seen all season.

I think it clearly is two ways of playing, one is an attacking mindset, keeping the ball and playing the ball away fast to manipulate defences. The other is letting the opposition have the ball and playing conservatively when we do have the ball.

Chiefs caught Bath after an extremely tough semi final v Bordeaux which I think trumps any tactical nuance but I would say a big part was the defensive pressure put on the half backs. Russell was given no time with the ball and their usually sharp breakdown work was disrupted. Similarly Tigers absolutely hammered Saints with their set piece and defence.

I don’t always agree with you but usually I can accept you bring a valid point to the table that challenges my way of thinking but I think we can agree to disagree here.

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Sarrov
I disagree with 90% of what he types but that's the point of these boards imo

Thank you Sarrov. My goal for the rest of the season will be to bump that to 11%.

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Sarrov

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jimfitz12
Who else thinks Paul should take over at head coach? Clearly thinks he is more qualified than some of the best coaches to ever grace the game. I mean honestly.

He is allowed his opinions and is never rude or abusive. I disagree with 90% of what he types but that's the point of these boards imo

+1. Thsi forum is at its worst when it's just an echo chamber. Some of us need to remember its possible to have a difference of opinion and still have polite debate about it rather than just being rude or talking 'agendas'.

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ICantBelieveItsNotBartyII

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Sarrov

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jimfitz12
Who else thinks Paul should take over at head coach? Clearly thinks he is more qualified than some of the best coaches to ever grace the game. I mean honestly.

He is allowed his opinions and is never rude or abusive. I disagree with 90% of what he types but that's the point of these boards imo

+1. Thsi forum is at its worst when it's just an echo chamber. Some of us need to remember its possible to have a difference of opinion and still have polite debate about it rather than just being rude or talking 'agendas'.

Well said

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Sarrov

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jimfitz12
Who else thinks Paul should take over at head coach? Clearly thinks he is more qualified than some of the best coaches to ever grace the game. I mean honestly.

He is allowed his opinions and is never rude or abusive. I disagree with 90% of what he types but that's the point of these boards imo

Very well said!

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ICantBelieveItsNotBartyII

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Sarrov

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jimfitz12
Who else thinks Paul should take over at head coach? Clearly thinks he is more qualified than some of the best coaches to ever grace the game. I mean honestly.

He is allowed his opinions and is never rude or abusive. I disagree with 90% of what he types but that's the point of these boards imo

+1. Thsi forum is at its worst when it's just an echo chamber. Some of us need to remember its possible to have a difference of opinion and still have polite debate about it rather than just being rude or talking 'agendas'.

Bring back Woodford Dave, for those of you old enough to remember him.

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Uttoxsarie

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ICantBelieveItsNotBartyII

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Sarrov

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jimfitz12
Who else thinks Paul should take over at head coach? Clearly thinks he is more qualified than some of the best coaches to ever grace the game. I mean honestly.

He is allowed his opinions and is never rude or abusive. I disagree with 90% of what he types but that's the point of these boards imo

+1. Thsi forum is at its worst when it's just an echo chamber. Some of us need to remember its possible to have a difference of opinion and still have polite debate about it rather than just being rude or talking 'agendas'.

Bring back Woodford Dave, for those of you old enough to remember him.

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Uttoxsarie

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ICantBelieveItsNotBartyII

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Sarrov

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jimfitz12
Who else thinks Paul should take over at head coach? Clearly thinks he is more qualified than some of the best coaches to ever grace the game. I mean honestly.

He is allowed his opinions and is never rude or abusive. I disagree with 90% of what he types but that's the point of these boards imo

+1. Thsi forum is at its worst when it's just an echo chamber. Some of us need to remember its possible to have a difference of opinion and still have polite debate about it rather than just being rude or talking 'agendas'.

Bring back Woodford Dave, for those of you old enough to remember him.

What a character he was!

I seem to remember that Woodford Dave moved to Worcester, that perhaps explains why they went bust.

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Uttoxsarie
I seem to remember that Woodford Dave moved to Worcester, that perhaps explains why they went bust.

Aluve and kicking in Birmingham I believe. Has family in Worcester.

Wrong thread - deleted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:20:11:42:38 by Sarrov.