BACKS TO THE WALL BATH v SARACENS

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019:12:03:18:46:23 by P G Tips.

I have booked my train ticket for a night of revelry. Looking forward to seeing the Xmas lights and possibly try some of the delights of the Market. Then I will ruin the whole evening no doubt by going to Rec for a sit down in my very expensive STH seat. Only hope it is raining cats and dogs and the game gets abandoned and has to be replayed in the New Year when we can muster a decent fit side.

Awful news about Ewels. We probably will be without him for the rest of the season. This is desperate times and I cannot envisage us winning against even a half strength Sarries side. We would struggle to beat their Academy at the moment.

No doubt the scoreboard will be in over drive and it won't be on the Bath side either.

PS Great write up as usual PGT.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019:11:26:19:52:59 by Bathovalballer.

I was reading that 26 year old ‘promising youngster’ Lozowski is reportedly not happy with his contract offer at Sarries when his current one is up at the end of this year. I think that he is someone that Bath should definitely be looking at if circumstances and budget allow - he is an excellent player IMO and also very versatile.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

I was kind of hoping for some property puns to lighten the mood and PGT has delivered - Backs to the Wall, very subtle.

I'm not good at these but how about -

Keeping Burns at full back is the Rightmove.
The Sarries pack will be knocking at the door.
The visitors will build the foundations of a win up front.

Quote:

Bathovalballer
.......
Awful news about Ewels. We probably will be without him for the rest of the season. This is desperate times and I cannot envisage us winning against even a half strength Sarries side. We would struggle to beat their Academy at the moment.
.........

Is this the same Charlie Ewels that you have constantly slagged off for the last two seasons?
By your previous comments, I'd have thought you'd be delighted he won't be able to don the BB&W for a prolonged period.


Seriously though, we really seem to get no positive breaks these days.
Hope all the injured he quick and can get back playing as soon as possible.

Quote:

B4thB4ck
I was kind of hoping for some property puns to lighten the mood .

I claim no monopoly on wordplay B4B but here goes:

With more of their key assets on display, Saracens can be expected to return any loose kick with interest. They will be keen to profit from any turnover that comes their way and can be relied on to capitalise on any Bath error.

PG

Quote:

P G Tips

Quote:

B4thB4ck
I was kind of hoping for some property puns to lighten the mood .

I claim no monopoly on wordplay B4B but here goes:

With more of their key assets on display, Saracens can be expected to return any loose kick with interest. They will be keen to profit from any turnover that comes their way and can be relied on to capitalise on any Bath error.

PG

Very good PG

Just noticed the United are meant to be playing Saracens Storm on Saturday at the Rec.

With our depleted ranks, I would have thought the club would be asking people, anyone, to turn up with their boots as they are likely to be needed!

It never just rains, it poors. Last thing we want is yet another tonking by the Saracen Cheaters in two days.

Adopted player 2020/21 Beno 'the Transformer' Obano


Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.The Jink Joseph.
Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

You'd think the club might actually mention the United game at some point, given it's on a Saturday afternoon.

It’s announced on the fixtures list on the club website. I expect further emails will be sent nearer the time. I did see some comment that it is free but donation buckets will be available for the Bath Foundation.

Why are we so despondent? This is very far from Sarries first team, sure we have a few injuries, but probably no more than most teams allow for in their planning, we have a new, revitalised, coaching staff and have home advantage. Would it not be a terrible indictment of our club if we were anything but positive about a home game against a team so obviously in turmoil?

Yes they are always free. I would expect the team to be announced only after the 1st team, as players may be needed for that?

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Tweet from the club

Quote:

27 November 2019
There is a double dose of rugby this weekend at the Rec, as Bath United get their Premiership Rugby Shield campaign underway against Saracens Storm on Saturday afternoon (kick-off 16:00).

Entry to the game is free, with a suggested donation of £2 on the gate going towards Bath Rugby Foundation – the Club’s charitable arm, whose purpose is to empower vulnerable children and young people in Bath and the surrounding area to succeed.

Quote:

warrenball
Why are we so despondent? This is very far from Sarries first team, sure we have a few injuries, but probably no more than most teams allow for in their planning, we have a new, revitalised, coaching staff and have home advantage. Would it not be a terrible indictment of our club if we were anything but positive about a home game against a team so obviously in turmoil?

I'm guessing this is a tongue in cheek posting as Sarries didn't look like a team in turmoil last weekend?

I don't like Saracens but am very sure they are not in disarray. See last weekend's performance.

Now Bath might be perceived slightly differently unfortunately........

Adopted player 2020/21 Beno 'the Transformer' Obano


Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.The Jink Joseph.
Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

Quote:

warrenball
Why are we so despondent? This is very far from Sarries first team, sure we have a few injuries, but probably no more than most teams allow for in their planning, we have a new, revitalised, coaching staff and have home advantage. Would it not be a terrible indictment of our club if we were anything but positive about a home game against a team so obviously in turmoil?

Can't tell if you're being serious or not.

The Sarries team that'll play on Friday is likely to be incredibly strong. And it's probably the worst time to play them.

Bath Rugby team to face Saracens

15. Tom Homer

14. Semesa Rokoduguni

13. Max Wright

12. Jamie Roberts

11. Ruaridh McConnochie

10. Rhys Priestland

9. Will Chudley

1. Beno Obano

2. Tom Dunn

3. Will Stuart

4. Josh McNally

5. Elliott Stooke

6. Josh Bayliss

7. Sam Underhill

8. Francois Louw (c)

Replacements

16. Jack Walker

17. Lewis Boyce

18. Christian Judge

19. Matt Garvey

20. Rhys Davies

21. Chris Cook

22. Freddie Burns

23. Gabe Hamer-Webb

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Saracens team to face Bath on Friday 29th November at The Rec (KO 19H45):

15 Elliot Daly (1)
14 Sean Maitland (67)
13 Duncan Taylor (119)
12 Brad Barritt © (248)
11 Alex Lewington (36)
10 Owen Farrell (193)
9 Richard Wigglesworth (236)
1 Mako Vunipola (161)
2 Jamie George (220)
3 Titi Lamositele (81)
4 Will Skelton (68)
5 George Kruis (179)
6 Maro Itoje (113)
7 Jackson Wray (233)
8 Billy Vunipola (104)

Replacements

16 Jack Singleton (3)
17 Richard Barrington (178)
18 Vincent Koch (69)
19 Nick Isiekwe (73)
20 Ben Earl (48)
21 Ben Spencer (162)
22 Manu Vunipola (12)
23 Nick Tompkins (111)

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Well at least our nemesis, Alex Goode, isn't playing. Who replaces him? Oh, a British Lion.

With JJ in the XV, there was hope. Without him, even I, a glass-half-fuller, am struggling to #believe.

Give it everything lads! We'll be cheering you on!

There’s me thinking that’s not a bad Bath team, missing JJ, but good to have Homer back. Then I see the Sarries team and their bench. It’s a wonder they can afford to have so many international players. I think the Premiership should consider some kind of salary cap to make things even in the future before it all gets out of hand.

Quote:

Rawce
There’s me thinking that’s not a bad Bath team, missing JJ, but good to have Homer back. Then I see the Sarries team and their bench. It’s a wonder they can afford to have so many international players. I think the Premiership should consider some kind of salary cap to make things even in the future before it all gets out of hand.

That's an outrageous suggestion. Have you seen what a handsome and charming man Nigel Wray is (I bet he tells great jokes too). Not guilty m'lud.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

Rawce
There’s me thinking that’s not a bad Bath team, missing JJ, but good to have Homer back. Then I see the Sarries team and their bench. It’s a wonder they can afford to have so many international players. I think the Premiership should consider some kind of salary cap to make things even in the future before it all gets out of hand.

Love it!

Hoping for a heavy pitch...the forwards up for it and Priestland putting them in the right places. That plus some raucous and feisty home support and we may still be in the game in the final quarter...

I'd take our wingers, Sam and Beno...but that's about it.

The only saving grace with our injuries is that they are spread across the team, so the team on paper is ok. We do seem to do pretty well against Saracens at home, but that is a very strong team they have got out, and would probably at the moment take a losing bonus point.

I can't quite work out how Saracens are allowed to continue to operate with the same squad (plus a British Lion full back) that breached the salary cap for the last 3 years. I would presume that next season Saracens squad will look very different?

That is a ridiculous amount of internationals in a 23! And we have, what, 7 including Roko and RMc.

I will definitely have to watch this with beer in hand, it could be a long evening!

Quote:

Shadders
I'd take our wingers, Sam and Beno...but that's about it.

I read that as Sam and Beno on the wing, which would cause a bit of damage in attack.

Forecast is cold and dry currently. Though I’ve probably just jinxed it.

Hoping for another tight home performance, though the head says Sarries.

Roberts vs Barritt has the noughties written all over it.

Is that triple opensides vs zero opensides?

Quote:

hasta
Is that triple opensides vs zero opensides?

Yes, and a pack weight about 100kgs lighter. Good job we have the inside backs to play a quick, expansive game to keep it away from the set piece and breakdown.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Good point, hasta.

Hopefully our work in the set piece and the tight can match Sarries, then we might have some joy on the floor. I've been really impressed with Bayliss so far this season, so it'll be interesting to see what he can do alongside Underhill and Louw. If we (Underhill) can stop their runners on the gainline, then we might be able to get on top at the breakdown (Louw).

That looks suspiciously like a sliver of hope to cling on to!

The engineering term, hysteresis, can be applied to the Sarries team. The effect of the cap breaches in the past years has resulted in the development of such a strong, deep squad that even if they are legal this season their team performance will benefit for a few seasons more.

Quote:

B4thB4ck
The engineering term, hysteresis, can be applied to the Sarries team. The effect of the cap breaches in the past years has resulted in the development of such a strong, deep squad that even if they are legal this season their team performance will benefit for a few seasons more.

As was the case with Justin Gatlin...

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Really good preview P G Tips.
Given Baths current injury issues that looks a very good team to me.
We have picked a very strong side but Bath away has been a tough fixture for a while and Roko has often been our nemesis.
I hope it's a great game and that the weather holds off.

Same argument as with doping. You can do it for years out of competition, clean up for competition but have legacy benefits

Even if we had a half decent coaching setup it'd make no difference to the easiest win outcome for Sarries. Ridiculous mismatch.

They breached the salary cap yet are still permitted to field the same squad of players that breach the salary cap. How does that work?

I guess cheats really do prosper.

Ehm Have Sarries got any injuries? How come their players don't return from England duty with long term injuries?

Yet again, an impenetrable blockage playing at 12, Will we never learn?
Its like the Bermuda Triangle. The ball arrives but never comes out!
Roko, Ruaridh and TH depending on crumbs of possession.

Who else do you want to pick at 12?

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Who else do you want to pick at 12?

Is Willison injured? He seems the only other possible candidate.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Please Please , Can someone explain to me how Sarries can keep their same squad together when they did so in the past by breaching the cap. Have players taken a salary cut ? Perhaps a Sarries visitor can explain. On another point if Sarries win Euro cup again do they automatically qualify for next year despite not being in top six?

It's not that hard to understand. It was the business investments that took them over the cap. Without those, they're "allegedly" now within the cap.

Seatonian, as you asked:

Sarries players out
LP - Hayden Thompson-Stringer - Brive
HK - Tadgh McIlroy - Released
HK - Christopher Tolofua - Toulon
TP - Christian Judge - Loan, signed for you/Bath
TP - Hisa Sasagi - Loan (Otago)
TP - Billy Walker - Nottingham
LK - Dominic Day - San Diego
FL - Schalk Burger - Retired
FL - Jack Nay - Released
FL - Joel Conlon - Retired through injury
N8 - Sione Vailanu - Wasps
SH - Alex Gliksten - Cambridge Uni/Bedford Blues
SH - Henry Taylor - Northampton Saints
C - Reuben Bird-Tulloch - Northampton Saints
C - Marcelo Bosch - Burton
C - Tom Griffiths - Dragons
WG - Oli Morris - Worcester Warriors
WG - David Strettle - Retired

Players in
LP - Rhys Carre - Cardiff Blues
HK - Jack Singleton - Worcester
TP - Josh Ibuanokpe - Harlequins
TP - Sam Wainwright - RGC 1404
SH - Alex Day - Cornish Pirates
FB - Elliot Daly - Wasps

Long-term injured: Goode, Williams, Figallo

Euro Cup - I believe that the winners do not automatically defend

Euro Cup winners do automatically defend... providing they haven't been relegated.

Quote:

ballsout
It's not that hard to understand. It was the business investments that took them over the cap. Without those, they're "allegedly" now within the cap.

So those players have sold up their shares in those co-investments and returned the money? What an absolute joke. That teamsheet just reads like a massive great 'v' sign to the rest of the Prem.

Once again, our teamsheet looks perfectly good. It would look even better with JJ in it - but only on paper. It's hard to remember when he last put in a performance for Bath that would get him noticed by England coaches if they didn't already know him.

Quote:

4everhopePhil
Seatonian, as you asked:
Sarries players out
LP - Hayden Thompson-Stringer - Brive
HK - Tadgh McIlroy - Released
HK - Christopher Tolofua - Toulon
TP - Christian Judge - Loan, signed for you/Bath
TP - Hisa Sasagi - Loan (Otago)
TP - Billy Walker - Nottingham
LK - Dominic Day - San Diego
FL - Schalk Burger - Retired
FL - Jack Nay - Released
FL - Joel Conlon - Retired through injury
N8 - Sione Vailanu - Wasps
SH - Alex Gliksten - Cambridge Uni/Bedford Blues
SH - Henry Taylor - Northampton Saints
C - Reuben Bird-Tulloch - Northampton Saints
C - Marcelo Bosch - Burton
C - Tom Griffiths - Dragons
WG - Oli Morris - Worcester Warriors
WG - David Strettle - Retired

Players in
LP - Rhys Carre - Cardiff Blues
HK - Jack Singleton - Worcester
TP - Josh Ibuanokpe - Harlequins
TP - Sam Wainwright - RGC 1404
SH - Alex Day - Cornish Pirates
FB - Elliot Daly - Wasps

Long-term injured: Goode, Williams, Figallo

Euro Cup - I believe that the winners do not automatically defend

Well Daly's package will account for over half of the leavers.

Thanks for the update on Sarries releases. When you look at those coming in I would suggest it balances out. Daly must be on a good wage to leave Wasps and many of those leaving were on the bottom part of the ladder wage wise.

Wasn't Judge a medical joker for Figallo (so wouldn't have been in the main cap?). Similarly a few academy players there who would also not have been in the main cap?

Christopher Tolofua wont have been cheap.

Would be interested to know what these guys were on the the twighlight of their careers:

- Schalk Burger
- Marcelo Bosch
- David Strettle

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

At that rate of in's and out's they may be legitimately under the cap in a few decades

Quote:

BathMatt53
I was reading that 26 year old ‘promising youngster’ Lozowski is reportedly not happy with his contract offer at Sarries when his current one is up at the end of this year. I think that he is someone that Bath should definitely be looking at if circumstances and budget allow - he is an excellent player IMO and also very versatile.

Would be an excellent acquisition i think. Challenge for 12 and 13 ....and a competent third choice 10 which is often a real issue...has covered back 3 as well i think

I'm annoyed. No points reduction or fine will compensate the honest ticket-buying fan that is about to watch their team get humped by a line up like theirs. It's a joke.

Quote:

BathMatt53
Christopher Tolofua wont have been cheap

So the implication is he would have been expensive? Unless you know French rugby well and without googling him, why?

When Saracens took a chance on him he was a promising 22? year old French prop with a few International caps whose career had stalled after a serious spine injury. The injury ruled him out of playing in France and for the National team.
Saracen took a chance and once he joined the medical advice was for him to have further surgery. He did that and rehabbed and played for Sarries for a couple of seasons. He never renewed his contract and with his spine sorted signed for Toulon and has International aspirations again.

Skelton would be another example of Sarries taking a calculated chance on an International player who was somewhat overlooked and out of shape. First as injury cover and then on contract. His renewal will have been on very good money but the two contracts before then I doubt would have been based on the player he was not the one he has become.

I actually meant the opposite to what you are suggesting, ie that he would have gone a way to offsetting some of the new guys coming in. If he was indeed cheap then it seems he (and Skelton) wouldn’t have and the books could do with a bit of cooking again? Cheers for the info.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Saracens have almost as many internationals in their team as Bath used to put out in the amateur era! Happy days.

Quote:

BathMatt53
I actually meant the opposite to what you are suggesting

Ah, ok.
No. I think both Tolofuas contract and Skletons original contract where very much based on their prospects at the time rather than the potential Saracens saw in them.

Referee Karl Dickson - 21st Premiership game

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
Referee Karl Dickson - 21st Premiership game

Good ref.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

I’m a bit surprised that Hercules Spoons hasn’t been on this thread as well with the usual tease about Bath Shamateur Era. I guess ignoring him must have worked.
Damn . . . . . .

HOP

This team sheet proves the game is broken, and no-one wants to fix it.

Please sir, can I have my game back please? I used to enjoy what it stood for and enjoy watching it.

Makes the premiership footy look like a bastion of morality.

Sad, sad days (for me anyway)

Quote:

BlackheathSaracen

Quote:

BathMatt53
I actually meant the opposite to what you are suggesting

Ah, ok.
No. I think both Tolofuas contract and Skletons original contract where very much based on their prospects at the time rather than the potential Saracens saw in them.

The same is true of Alex Lozowski. When he moved to Saracens he was 3rd or 4th choice at Wasps. Saracens saw something in him, gave him game time and made him into a very good player and now of course he wants more money (don´t blame him at all). The point is that leaving aside salary cap issues aside, Saracens are very good at recruiting players like him and making them better. Look at some of the players they have picked up from the championship down the years.

So it’s Bath v The Rest of the World! I think we might sneak this!

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
Referee Karl Dickson - 21st Premiership game

Doesn't seem very fair that the ref is allowed to adopt 2 players from Bath. This should be looked into by the authorities!!!

Anyone think the Club might be saying something by announcing its Black Friday today!

At the Bathrugbyshop that is!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

How arrogant...

That's got to be £3m of the cap right there...

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Just leaving for the game shortly, yes I know its early but I want to spend the day at the Xmas Market to buy a wooden tie and a crate of garlic beer

Bath by 3 only because Sorries are in such turmoil they won't know where they are !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

I assumed Sarries PR would adopt a lower profile in the short term.

I am sure someone cleverer than me could edit that picture by adding some bank notes into their hands. 

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
Sorries are in such turmoil they won't know where they are !

I think you're going to be very surprised.

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
Just leaving for the game shortly, yes I know its early but I want to spend the day at the Xmas Market to buy a wooden tie and a crate of garlic beer

Not another wooden tie?! How many does a man need?

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019:11:29:11:08:10 by BathMatt53.

Quote:

Primavesi2
The same is true of Alex Lozowski. When he moved to Saracens he was 3rd or 4th choice at Wasps. Saracens saw something in him, gave him game time and made him into a very good player .... Saracens are very good at recruiting players like him and making them better. Look at some of the players they have picked up from the championship down the years.

Eh???? When Lozowski moved to Saracens he was back-up to Andy Goode - according to Wiki he played 27 times in his 2 seasons with them, but with Cipriani lined up he saw his chances could be limited ... so he went to Sarries as replacement for Charlie Hodgson. He clearly saw himself as a fly-half. My recollection is that he was considered very much an England player in the making and that going to Sarries was going to help him in that ambition. If anything his career has stalled a bit at Sarries where he's become a bit of a utility. He's far from being an automatic pick in the big games, and he's averaging roughly the same number of appearances per season for Sarries as he was for Wasps. He failed to make the England squad - overtaken by Piers Francis who hasn't exactly set England alight.

Fat Lock wrote -
"This team sheet proves the game is broken, and no-one wants to fix it.
Please sir, can I have my game back please? I used to enjoy what it stood for and enjoy watching it.
Makes the premiership footy look like a bastion of morality.
Sad, sad days (for me anyway)"

What always restores my faith in the game is going down to my local club ( where my two lads played from mini's to seniors ) on a Sunday morning and see all the youth and mini teams playing for the pure joy and fun of the game and what it gives to those kids. The time and effort the coaches (at grass roots level few if any are paid) , and volunteers put in for the sheer love of the game is what Rugby is all about.
Sure I watch the Prem and go to 3 or 4 games a year to see Bath , but its the tip of the rugby Iceberg I usually get just as much enjoyment watching an amateur game played in a rainstorm on a mud bath. From Nat 2 and above some great rugby to watch and so much cheaper !

Before he left for Sarries, I remember Lozowski scored one helluva halfway line try for Wasps v Bath.

So the fact that "Saracens saw something in him" isn't really remarkable. 14,000 people could quite clearly see it too.

Glad that's your memory too dr. bath.

It's a bit like the Adam Hastings thing, where people keep lamenting how much better he's got since he left Bath. He was 18 when he played for Bath. Of course he got f'ing better in the next couple of years.

My memory is that Lozowski was one of the most highly rated in his age group, and he had begun to prove his potential with some flashes of brilliance when he got on the pitch for Wasps. Like you say Opti, he left because Cipriani was head back to Wasps.

I expect his signature was fought over by a number of clubs, so he must have signed for Saracens on a pretty tidy sum for a 22/23 year old. Or maybe he took a low offer from Sarries because he thought he'd win trophies and become a better player with them? Who knows eh.

Quote:

dr.bath1865
My memory is that Lozowski was one of the most highly rated in his age group, and he had begun to prove his potential with some flashes of brilliance when he got on the pitch for Wasps. Like you say Opti, he left because Cipriani was head back to Wasps.
I expect his signature was fought over by a number of clubs, so he must have signed for Saracens on a pretty tidy sum for a 22/23 year old. Or maybe he took a low offer from Sarries because he thought he'd win trophies and become a better player with them? Who knows eh.

Or a business opportunity.

Quote:

ballsout

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
Sorries are in such turmoil they won't know where they are !

I think you're going to be very surprised.

I suspect we are going to be on the end of a right old backlash, but in fact the evidence that Sarries are unaffected by all this is mixed. They put away Ospreys 2nd team, who are the standard-bearer for ‘turmoil’ related rugby clubs currently.

They look like a group of players on a mission, IMO.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019:11:29:16:50:17 by BathMatt53.

Sarries have probably created a siege mentality amongst the squad and will no doubt brush away a severely depleted Bath team without any problems at all. It's just a matter of how long it will take them to get the TBP.

The thing that irritates me most is that they are being allowed to continue fielding the same team that breached the salary cap!

I guess we just have to suck that up, hope we escape without any further injuries and at least remain competitive for the 1st half.

Quote:

sid the seagull
I’m a bit surprised that Hercules Spoons hasn’t been on this thread as well with the usual tease about Bath Shamateur Era. I guess ignoring him must have worked.
Damn . . . . . .

HOP

I’m still around Sid

Remarkable parallels

The opening lines of the BBC web coverage this evening:-

'Seemingly for the moment, the dust has settled on the Sarries' salary cap scandal and Mark McCall's men can begin their quest for survival.'

Well, that's nice.

Well, yet another half of rugby where we have ball but just go side to side. Sarries soaked up the pressure then made it look easy through our defense to score their try.

Looked ok in the scrums, then Sarries started winning penalties where we only go re-sets. Need to find something from somewhere if we want to win this. Currently, with the lack of skill at 9, 10, 12 we are looking at a LBP.

9-16 at HT.

Saints fan here. I thought you were hard done by when you had their tight head turned in twice and only got resets. Then to top it off Sarries push before the ball is in and get a pen. KD not too hot on the scrum imho.

Well this all feels horribly inevitable. As well as literally every 50/50 call going to Sarries.

Every 60/40 in our favour is going to Sarries.
Only one side being reffed - Sarries runners in front every time, and in front of the back foot every time.

Miles offside at every ruck.

The World XV are up very, very quickly whenever we have the ball. Penalties are all against us right now.

12-25 after 63mins

The officating is an offical joke. Two illegal binds from Kock, 6 m from TJ. Nothing. Headbut by Koch, nothing.

We have no hope the way this has been refereed.

Having said that our basic handling skills and vision is non existent

This is a complete farce the way it's been officiated. That said, we are not good enough to win this game

We are being our usual stodgy selves again. They are up suspiciously fast in defence but we are asking no questions and losing anything that resembles an arm wrestle.

Lots of huff and puff and putting bodies on the line but no threat and no shape yet again.

We are a very limited, dull and unintelligent team. I may well stop watching and check the scores after games because frankly this team can hold very little of my interest.

I don’t what needs to change, but change is what’s required.

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow�

How in the blue black and white swearword do you get destroyed at that scrum?

Awful.

Our replacement front row are someway off Premiership standard. We are missing Catt and Thomas (who isn’t exactly dominant in the scrum himself) but it is still concerning.

Sarries down to 14 for the last 10 mins, and we still can't get into this game. We are just an average at best side and anything around 10th in the league is probably a fair reflection.

This is just so uninspiring, it's horrible rugby with a complete lack of basics and skill. We rely on someone for a moment of brilliance.

The coaching team need a long hard at the squad and what they do in training.

Very frustrating again.
Why can't we get a fair crack from the officials - particularly when red cards and foul play are ignored?

Yes we are too predictable, but lots of sides would struggle against a fired up Sarries side who are getting all the calls.

We could have any referee in the world and we still wouldn’t be able to break the line in the backs through anything other than the occasional bit of individual magic.

All these people saying Hooper this, Lilley that - Dempsey needs to answer some questions as to why the backs as so impotent IMO. I was so excited when he joined but our attack play is literally some of the least penetrative in the league. Why?

Second fewest tries for in league: 6 (Tigers 4). Most tries against in league: 14. Pretty miserable statistic for those who pay their money to watch that tbh.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019:11:29:21:43:58 by BathMatt53.

We have the officiating that our play deserves. Awful.

Quote:

supermarinematt

The coaching team need a long hard at themselves and what they do in training.

Fixed FOC

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow�

If we are always (Which reading on ‘ere we seem to be) on the wrong side of the ref then we need to look at ourselves.

Dunn looks livid.

When even the commentators are saying one team is perma offside you know it's not being reffed.

I think we are all wondering what Dempsey does.

I make it 2 backs tries so far this season, is that right?

Quote:

Sans Culottes
Saints fan here. I thought you were hard done by when you had their tight head turned in twice and only got resets. Then to top it off Sarries push before the ball is in and get a pen. KD not too hot on the scrum imho.

Was pretty perplexed by the scrum too, ref set his stall out early and gave you a penalty and then followed that up by refusing to award a penalty for them popping up constantly.

That scrum on their 5m line was embarrassing. Our maul is impotent.

If you're going to play a power game it might help to have some, I don't know, power, or flipping ball carriers? If you have none, maybe try and play a different type of game?

I was expecting to lose, but GAAAAH that game drove me mad.

That was depressing enough to listen to on the radio...

Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley. Weird split household co-parented
player 2020 Josh Matavesi

Look on the bright side the cheats didn't get a TBP.

On the flip side why do we bother fielding wingers when we have absolutely no attacking strategy to use them?

Priestland - other than a good long punt, utterly useless. Dempsey - either you’re being ignored or you’re not very good. Plenty of character tonight - no complaints on the spirit, effort or physicality but with RP at 10 we couldn’t unlock a Wendy house door.

On the plus side, very much looking forward to the Clermont double header. I’m sure they are shaking in their Christian Louboutins.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Mercer described Dempsey as “World Class” in the post game discussion. It felt somewhat hyperbolic.

Completely agree Opti. RP is one of our (or possibly the) major problems and I can’t see us playing any decent rugby until he’s replaced. Depressed in the extreme.

Ken I'm impressed in your ability to watch the post match after that.

Quote:

ken_jnr
Mercer described Dempsey as “World Class” in the post game discussion. It felt somewhat hyperbolic.

Clearly world class in the initial job interview - less impressive at getting results on the pitch however.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

After nearly 40 years watching Bath Rugby there has been many ups and downs but that game was grim and I hate to admit it but for the first time ever we left with ten minutes to go . I agree with several others that wonder what Girvan Dempsey is doing and something needs to change soon..

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Sarries in second gear. They raised for about 1monute to score a try and cruised the rest. Our defence and set piece are actually good, but our offence and propensity to give away weak penalties make me want to weep. Failing to get a new 10 was a disaster.
Played 7, won 2...

Quote:

ken_jnr
Our replacement front row are someway off Premiership standard. We are missing Catt and Thomas (who isn’t exactly dominant in the scrum himself) but it is still concerning.

I’ve been think this for a few weeks now, maybe Hatley can do something about it in the coming months, fingers crossed.

Take away the penalties and your left with a one try game. It was Black Friday after all.
Someone explain to me how these scrum penalties work.
Something needs to be done about the offside infringements.
As Homer made the first line break for ages he should go to 10.
I can't admire Sarries rugby any more and the 'move on' bit sticks sorry.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

I felt we certainly gave it a go, especially in the first 15 minutes or so. However, and I know I should not criticise referees, but Mr Dickson certainly lived up to his name.

Those first three scrums, Obano had the big American tight head on toast and Stuart wa doing a job on Mako who is IMO a poor scrummager, we should have had at least 3 penalties. That and the non existant off side line for Saracens chasers who were forever in front of the ball and standing in our back line. Also I need to look at the replay, but I swear they were in front of the kicker everytine they kicked off. Mr D was convinced we were always at fault at the breakdown and it gifted them at least 9 points because of it.

Worst of all was his much belated decision not to send De Koch off for the headbutt which was as clear as day to those sitting around me. Also the touch judge could not have missed it as it was less than 12 yards in front of him.

Still we could and should have done better with our possession and pitch position but our backs are absolutely toothless. Our wingers must wonder when they are to get a decent pass in space.

What happened in that last scrum for our back up front row to disintegrate? They have to improve. Why was Stooke put to flank when his weight and experience were so desperately needed at that crucial time? He and McNally had done well up to then.

Although our attack was poor, I feel we deserved a LBP as we showed some spirit and didn't roll over as I feared. But the cheats carried the day and no doubt will be in the play offs and win the Prem Final again. For which they will be roundly applauded and rewarded with another property or two each, allegedly.

Onwards and upwards, we only have the muscular, speedy Clermont next week. Hey ho.

Adopted player 2020/21 Beno 'the Transformer' Obano


Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.The Jink Joseph.
Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

Watching live I felt Saracens got more than their fair share of "luck' with decisions re forward pass, offside (particularly) and breakdown offences, plus of course the Koch headbut and a couple of no arms tackles. It will be interesting to see if that impression is borne out watching the recording.

That said, we played too much behind the gainline and did nothing to expose their offside. As others have said, our attack was unimaginative, so they were able to defend without being properly stretched.

Can't fault the effort and on balance I thought us the better side for 35 minutes, but we were well worn down by the end.

Significant improvement needed - and soon - or the season will dribble away.

PG

Quote:

Optimist
Priestland - other than a good long punt, utterly useless. Dempsey - either you’re being ignored or you’re not very good. Plenty of character tonight - no complaints on the spirit, effort or physicality but with RP at 10 we couldn’t unlock a Wendy house door.

Hey, Rhys made a very decent line break in second half to get within 7 metres of their line so very, very harsh … ok was the only one and he went to ground, didn't lead to points and he didn't look for support or offload but apart from that youngster Tomkins who did a stupidly lucky offload around Roko, oh and Itoje and I guess the one their prop did in the first half and that guy Vunipola but who else tried that kind of speculative thing ….

Still at least we kept Freddie injury free eh?

Ironic that we have been asking for parity up front for a while through strong runners and set piece - we now get it and have no idea what to do with it. The Bath forwards did their job again I thought and largely held their own against an opposing pack with loads of world class players. The backs are firing blanks unfortunately - no lack of effort, just a lack of imagination and execution. It’s a shame.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

22Dropout
Completely agree Opti. RP is one of our (or possibly the) major problems and I can’t see us playing any decent rugby until he’s replaced. Depressed in the extreme.

He won't be.

It will be Freddie for the chop. Just don't understand why but RP, the 'steady eddie' gets the starting shirt and will be ahead of Burns when the renewals are being discussed

- A line break!!!!! I was shocked.
- Our handling/passing skills are Championship standard, if that.
- Ball retention improved at long last. Now let’s keep it up for a decent foundation to build on.
- 1 back try in 7 games
- Some lovely offloading in the build up to Sarries try. I can’t remember the last time Bath offloaded the ball even once. Certainly not this season.

Quote:

Toast and Marmite
We are a very limited, dull and unintelligent team. I may well stop watching and check the scores after games because frankly this team can hold very little of my interest.

But yeah, this ^

I’m at the point where the only way positive, long overdue change will happen is if we struggle all season, so I’ll gladly take short term pain. I’m past caring about winning and climbing up the league. I just want a decent club. This shambles masquerading as one isn’t it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019:11:29:23:28:41 by ballsout.

Yes a very frustrating game. The ref was definitely denying us the rub of the green. There was one instance when a Sarries player held onto the ball in front of the South stand having been turned towards the Bath side and made three attempts to get the ball from ground to his side and yet the ref only blew up when the entire stand bellowed holding on!

Having said that we are our own worst enemies for discipline. They scored from 18 points from pens! One was certainly a joke as Flouw was penalised for not rolling away and it seem to me that was very harsh!

When you saw how quick Wigglesworth fired his passes compared with Chudders and Cookie that was also a major difference. We also did not penetrate except for that run by Tom H but Roko and Rory Mc always got ball from standing starts.

Pity we couldn’t at least get a losing bonus but much to work on.

Out played by a bunch of cheats *shrugs* I can't really bring myself to care very much.

One suggestion to add to our play might be that, when we are on the oppos 5m line with slow ball and their defence set, just take a drop at goal. Upside - 3pts and get the ball back from the kickoff. Downside - we miss but we get the ball back from the drop out.

That way we save ourselves all the time and energy spent picking and driving and then knocking on or giving away a penalty after 30 pointless phases. It pretty clear that, as soon as we go wide, we're not good enough in the backs to score consistently against the good sides, so it's not really a percentage play to try, especially in a tight game.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019:11:30:02:53:14 by joethefanatic.

For the first time in an age I turned off the last 30 minutes due to the air of inevitability about it all. The style of rugby at our club is starting to break my heart, and my finances. Recently forked out £65 for the Sale game over Xmas! As an entertainment product the output is way below the current asking price Mr Chairman and Mr CEO! Only 4 Prem footie teams have more expensive tickets than us.

The offload continuity game has gone for a burton because players have no conviction that anyone will make a line break and if they do the collective surprise means it's too late all round. I don't believe that Dempsey has gone from a revered Leinster 'King Arthur' to a Bath 'Prince Andrew' in such a short time. I blame the players (backline), no guile, no ingenuity, no risk, some from 9 to 13 are living off their names and past glories, and costing us way too much on salary.

No one doubts Sarries play close to the wire, but they get away with it and furthermore they win. We have to be more street smart and match-up. Nice guys finish last and that's what we're looking like. The real 'clash' will be at the Madjeski in Dec and not at Twickenham next spring.

I don't doubt any players endeavour and effort, and the forwards have come on leaps and bounds recently. The backs need something new... I'd introduce more youth, play without fear of failure 'cos they could do literally no worse than current crop. Burns has to be the default 10 who should have a mandate to take calculated risk. We're only going in one direction without it.

Quote:

West Wilts Wanderer
I blame the players (backline), no guile, no ingenuity, no risk, some from 9 to 13 are living off their names and past glories, and costing us way too much on salary.

So all the players every week are at fault? Blame the club culture, blame the coaching, blame the management, but don't blame the players.

Quote:

and the forwards have come on leaps and bounds recently.

Pack has improved, but let's not go overboard. Our lineout drive is non-existant and our second choice front row is an enormous step down. I've no idea how Boyce and Judge have gone downhill so quickly. Walker needed to sign for a club that'd develop him, but that obviously doesn't happen here. But he's Leeds, therefore an automatic signature same with Boyce and Green.

Looks like the same conversations are being had...had to argue with his summary.

‘Stuart Hooper - Effort is not enough in elite sport

Lots of the lads put in a huge shift and a massive amount of effort. Some of the collision work from our guys was brilliant against their big ball carriers in Billy and Maro, as examples of the work that we’re doing, which is fantastic, but in order to score points at this level in the Premiership we’ve got to make sure we knit it together.
Ultimately we need to ensure that we get the points when we get in the attacking third and obviously that’s with the ball in hand so that’s an attacking area to develop for us.
We’ve got the ability to get the ball over the advantage line from one big carrier. After that we’ve got to make sure we can exploit a bit of space and make a bit of space. Saracens are probably the best there is out there at closing space. You can see that they take a lot of pride in their defensive line and in order to break it down you need a little bit more than brute force.‘

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

What is left to say ? The salary cap punishments are not enough, Sorries will soon be mid table and then top four, should have had titles removed, all I can think is they have some players on 10k pa.


Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Part of the backs' problem is often how slow Chudders is to arrive at the breakdown, so there's so little quick ball.

Quote:

Dorset Boy
Part of the backs' problem is often how slow Chudders is to arrive at the breakdown, so there's so little quick ball.

...Who then passes it to RP who throws it 5m directly backwards to a glacial 12 with (seemingly) only the crash ball in his mind 90% of the time...it’s not a recipe for fast flowing and incisive attacking play is it?

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Has there been any update on Willison? We’ve hardly seen him in a Bath shirt. He seems to be getting a lot of head injuries which must be tough going.

Sorry - the relevance of this question is because of our choices in midfield seem very limited at the moment.

Quote:

cookiecrumble
Has there been any update on Willison? We’ve hardly seen him in a Bath shirt. He seems to be getting a lot of head injuries which must be tough going.

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

Dorset Boy
Part of the backs' problem is often how slow Chudders is to arrive at the breakdown, so there's so little quick ball.

...Who then passes it to RP who throws it 5m directly backwards to a glacial 12 with (seemingly) only the crash ball in his mind 90% of the time...it’s not a recipe for fast
flow9ing and incisive attacking play is it?

Spot on matt. Slow ball from 9 who everyone knows offers no sniping threat.

Goes to rhys who everyone knows rarely takes it to the line.

Pull back ball behind runners who dont even look like they will ever get the ball.

Get hit 10 yds behind the gain line.

Repeat for 80 minutes.

There isnt a single 9, 10 or centre in the squad (apart from jj) that i would be fussed about retaining.

Coaching is 100% an issue but our options in terms of players in those positions are mediocre at best. Thats a bad combo!

Can I also add that Rhys doesn't kick tactically from open play to gain territory. He's not even looking. Do you remember how GF would routinely ping the corners and we play from there? Our kicking strategy these days is to boot it up in the air, much too shallow and just give it away because we don't really compete under it. Most often this is a box off 9.
Their try came yesterday straight after we had played about 20 knackering and non-penetrating phases and were tired after the restart.

We were always going to lose to the cheats last night so that in itself is no big deal, but the manner of defeat is.

Some of the stats from the league table have to be concerning BC, aside from the fact we are boring to watch.

Tries for: 6 - Worst in league
Tries against: 14 - Worst in league
Bonus points: 0 - Worst in league
Points difference: -36 - Second worst in league

Obviously we've played 1 more game than most so that is relevant, but whatever way you look at it those figures are relegation form.

Our pack has improved but still has a long way to go. Our penalty count is embarrassing and costly and our playing of the ref more inept than other teams. Bath will win a few games and lose many more and this is unlikely to change until we have a creative 3/4 line that can pass the ball, make line breaks and attack. Speed and accuracy are the keys - in the offload, the pass, the opportunity and breakdown, but Bath is noticeably slower at the game than any opposition we face. Hard to see us finding second gear with a ponderous, unchippy 9, a fragile and dull 10 and bricks at 12 and 13. Our class wingers are mere box kick chasers not try scorers and there is no savvy leadership.
Long season to run yet. Things can only get better. Hopefully

I shall say this every week until I see somebody execute one in a game which would help against the high speed (offside) rush defence............10 yard CHIP KICK!!!!

‘We were always going to lose to the cheats last night so that in itself is no big deal, but the manner of defeat is’

I think if you believe the first part of that - and absolutely no-one is contesting it, then you can’t really complain about the ‘manner of defeat’ (other than shipping 30-40 points). If we’d gone out and ‘given it a lash’ we would have got trashed. We did the only feasible thing, and to go down inexorably but competitively to a pack containing 5 British Lions is actually very respectable. Our ball retention was hugely improved, and if we can string together 15 phases in the red zone we will score against virtually any other team. My single-issue rant is against the continued selection of Priestland - his passing, vision, scanning and spontaneity are absolutely non-existent. Refer back again to BFJ’s post about chipping in behind. We had 3 x scavenging open-sides on the pitch last night, against their ‘oil-tanker’ back row. Surely to god it would have been worth essaying a few little dinks into the space behind their perennially offside defensive line?

Probably one of the worst, and predictable games I have seen at the Rec.

In the first half we were 10 yards from their line with a thirty yard blindside with Roko one on one with Maitland.

"All" Chudleigh had to do was break towards Maitland.........draw and pass to Roko............instead time and time again we picked and went..........no where.

RP should not play again for Bath.........I would play Cook at fly half ahead of him.

Opti +1,000

I am beginning to wonder why I bother to watch this game anymore. The offside line at the back of a ruck is not policed; referees seem unable to referee the scrum correctly; s/h's feed into the 2nd row; players fall on others at the ruck to slow ball down or obtain a penalty. Off to Wales this afternoon hoping to see a more free flowing and enjoyable game of rugby...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Surely Girvan must realise by now something needs to change, what was Stuart explanation after the game ?

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
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Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Ok my thoughts, we are too busy trying not to lose to win anything. Starts with conservative selection and continues with game plan. We are trying to out Exeter Exeter in attack, even they learned that you can score by picking your moment to go wide rather than battering your opponents line endlessly. We spurned several occasions to give our wingers a one on one with the defender why? Do we think they are not good enough or is it as I suspect that the 9 gets into shovel sideways mode and just doesn’t look? I think they tend select a 9 and 10 who will follow the game plan and not go off piste. But we needed to change that sooner than we did the subs were made way too late to change anything.

And why didn't the coaches put Freddie on to try something different, especially to beat their rush defence? Such as a kick over the top or out to the wing......

Adopted player 2020/21 Beno 'the Transformer' Obano


Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.The Jink Joseph.
Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

Freddie has been no better than RP. Burns has had ups and downs in his career but aside from RP playing badly enough to be dropped, I haven’t seen Burns able to do anything that would turn our game around.

Was it the Ulster or Quins where the first bit of quick ball we got, he cross field kicked it over the top of McConnochie straight into touch?

In his defence we don’t seem to give any options inside or outside 10 so I’m not sure the blame is on either of our 10’s.

The alignment of the backs is definitely in the coaching remit.

So many “agendas” in this thread.

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
Probably one of the worst, and predictable games I have seen at the Rec.

I swear someone has been saying this every other week for the last few years. Sadly each time it seems to be true.

Made worse for me by sitting next to my Saracens supporting brother-in-law

One other improvement last night - we actually kicked contestable restarts. It's the sort of thing where pundits like Healey mutter sagely, 'Dempsey's fingerprints on that tactical innovation' ... except it's got the fingerprints of literally anyone who's ever played rugby, anywhere, ever on it.

Sarries not happy that Wray wasn’t allowed in the Rec last night.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

ken_jnr
Was it the Ulster or Quins where the first bit of quick ball we got, he cross field kicked it over the top of McConnochie straight into touch?

Yep. I felt like leaving there and then. Twenty minutes for some (finally) decent possession and he kicks it away straight into touch.

Quote:

BathMatt53
Sarries not happy that Wray wasn’t allowed in the Rec last night.

Who stopped him ?

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Quote:

ballsout
So many “agendas” in this thread.

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
Probably one of the worst, and predictable games I have seen at the Rec.

I swear someone has been saying this every other week for the last few years. Sadly each time it seems to be true.

You are that person, and I claim my £5

Quote:

Old Bath Tub

Quote:

BathMatt53
Sarries not happy that Wray wasn’t allowed in the Rec last night.

Who stopped him ?

According to reports it was Bath. The Premiership clubs have got together behind Tony Rowe to say he’s not allowed in their grounds? McCall was quizzed on it in the interview after the game.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019:11:30:13:25:21 by BathMatt53.

The game last night was entirely predictable, in an effort to avoid getting humiliated by losing by too many points and we only ended up boring the pants off everyone. It was only the cold stopping everyone falling asleep. We will not get relegated, there will always be at least one team worse than us, but is that really the limit of our ambition or did we think this turgid style of rugby would breach the opposition defence?

But on the upside it was a full house, the points deduction added an extra bit of spice to the proceedings and we even had a few drunks chanting 'Jeremy Corbin'. Naturally the bar ran out of hot water, not expecting anyone to want to but a hot drink, but that too added to the air of predictability.

Was it worth £65 to the casual ticket holder? Well it's Christmas and you have to expect to get ripped off at the time of year, but Black Friday was certainly very appropriate.

If you sit back and loook at the internationals running through that side it was almost Bath against a mixed international side. We were pants but did we ever really expect to beat a Saracens side packed with internationals?

I'd even go as far to say they underperformed, only scoring one try with that pack and those backs!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked
I'd even go as far to say they underperformed, only scoring one try with that pack and those backs!

Not a criticism SW - I find myself doing the same - but it does seem like we're often quick to blame our attacking ineptitude on our own poor play rather than crediting the opposition defence. In the same vein, on this occasion I think our defence is due some credit for effectively nullifying their attack. For example, both Mako and Billy were well contained for the majority of the game, I thought.

Contrast it particularly with some of the wide open spaces we saw in our defence at the start of the season.

If it weren’t the same every match Barnoid, I would agree!

Northampton Saints making the wide and fast game look simple against Tigers at the moment.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

WOW. We think that Bath are struggling - Tigers are putting in one of the worst performances at the set piece, attack and particularly defence, that I have seen in a long while...actually maybe Bristol vs Bath a couple of months ago.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53
WOW. We think that Bath are struggling - Tigers are putting in one of the worst performances at the set piece, attack and particularly defence, that I have seen in a long while...actually maybe Bristol vs Bath a couple of months ago.

At least we only really fell apart when we went down to 13. Tigers don't have that excuse.
Exeter spanking Wasps too.

I can’t see how Murphy can keep his job after this performance. It’s awful.

Proctor is a good signing.

Grayson shouldn’t be too far from the England elite group if there is any justice.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019:11:30:16:55:09 by BathMatt53.

Quote:

P G Tips
Watching live I felt Saracens got more than their fair share of "luck' with decisions re forward pass, offside (particularly) and breakdown offences, plus of course the Koch headbut and a couple of no arms tackles. It will be interesting to see if that impression is borne out watching the recording.
PG

Having checked the recording, the headbutt and no-arm tackles were innocuous enough & the forward passes no worse than others I've seen waved on. I stand by the other points though -particularly offside (and how did Koch get away with his binding and boring in?

PG

Penalty count was unforgivable.

Didn’t think the score line reflected the game, but correct result.

J

The pen count was 11 to 8. The issue is we gave away 6 kickable pens to their 4,

The next round of Premiership games have to be crucial. Lose all those and surely Craig must have the challenging conversation

Win two of those and Hooper has some breathing space

Just one win and a bp say and it will take some convincing to keep status quo especially if likes of London Irish and Worcester are picking up more points

Quote:

gaz59
The next round of Premiership games have to be crucial. Lose all those and surely Craig must have the challenging conversation
Win two of those and Hooper has some breathing space

Just one win and a bp say and it will take some convincing to keep status quo especially if likes of London Irish and Worcester are picking up more points

Trouble is, what does that challenging conversation say? We need an experienced head coach? We kinda know that. The problem is who is available at the drop of a hat who fits the bill?

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

If only a global tournament had just taken place after a four year build up and lots of top quality coaches would be looking for jobs.

Too late now of course.

Quote:

ballsout
If only a global tournament had just taken place after a four year build up and lots of top quality coaches would be looking for jobs.
Too late now of course.

Who would you have chosen as the best fit for us?

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

I'm actually in two minds about the head coach thing, don't get me wrong we need coaching input but I wonder if it is too early to dismantle the Hooper experiment.
I wonder if we should concentrate on specific aspects of coaching like a defence coach, and a skills coach.
If you are relaxed as a player and defence is instilled for example team confidence goes up and there is less likely hood of snatching at passes or rushing kicks.
Lets face it we tried the one coach fits all scenario with only limited success, we have not had enough time to see Hatley's coaching take effect either. I think we need a little more time. There is improvement up front from last year and that is were Hooper said he was going to concentrate when he laid out his plan for this year..


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked
I'm actually in two minds about the head coach thing, don't get me wrong we need coaching input but I wonder if it is too early to dismantle the Hooper experiment.
I wonder if we should concentrate on specific aspects of coaching like a defence coach, and a skills coach.
If you are relaxed as a player and defence is instilled for example team confidence goes up and there is less likely hood of snatching at passes or rushing kicks.
Lets face it we tried the one coach fits all scenario with only limited success, we have not had enough time to see Hatley's coaching take effect either. I think we need a little more time. There is improvement up front from last year and that is were Hooper said he was going to concentrate when he laid out his plan for this year..

Hooper is the DoR. I'm not saying Hooper should be axed, I'm saying we need to complete the coaching team so Hooper can be freed up to actually do the job he's employed to do. And that is not to coach.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Whilst I agree with the points raised about weaknesses in our attacking play & less than ideal halfbacks I think we should look at the quality of the players we have available. With the huge number of injuries we are increasingly having to overplay certain individuals & the remaining squad is just average. It is barely adequate to compete on a level playing field but the effort put in is exceptional. I don’t see too many wins going forward in this situation. It is also interesting to note that Leicester have the two England halfbacks & it isn’t helping them at present. I don’t think any DOR would be able to get appreciably more out of our denuded squad.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019:12:01:07:20:09 by Bath Hammer.

[quote Bath Hammer] It is also interesting to note that Leicester have the two England halfbacks & it is helping them at present.[/quote

I'm assuming the missing word in that sentence is "not". I haven't watched the Stains v Tigs game yet, but the Tigs board is not pretty reading if you are Geordan Murphy. Or Ben Youngs for that matter. The phrase "we were handed our ar$es" is being used a lot.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019:12:01:05:30:10 by joethefanatic.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019:12:01:07:18:25 by Bath Hammer.

Quote:

Optimist

Quote:

Primavesi2
The same is true of Alex Lozowski. When he moved to Saracens he was 3rd or 4th choice at Wasps. Saracens saw something in him, gave him game time and made him into a very good player .... Saracens are very good at recruiting players like him and making them better. Look at some of the players they have picked up from the championship down the years.

Eh???? When Lozowski moved to Saracens he was back-up to Andy Goode - according to Wiki he played 27 times in his 2 seasons with them, but with Cipriani lined up he saw his chances could be limited ... so he went to Sarries as replacement for Charlie Hodgson. He clearly saw himself as a fly-half. My recollection is that he was considered very much an England player in the making and that going to Sarries was going to help him in that ambition. If anything his career has stalled a bit at Sarries where he's become a bit of a utility. He's far from being an automatic pick in the big games, and he's averaging roughly the same number of appearances per season for Sarries as he was for Wasps. He failed to make the England squad - overtaken by Piers Francis who hasn't exactly set England alight.

yep, Wasps definitely didnt want to lose him..

Saracens must have some cover if they cant find a place for him and i think he'd play far more and probably improve every other teams 23.

i think his new contract...and others at Saracens will reflect they can't use that scheme again...but i wouldnt put it past them creating others, which is the joke about their current 'punishment '

The players on investment schemes need that money made up somewhere so at some point anyone playing by the rules....forgive the joke... need to factor in their improved salary in cap.

If there arent very noticeable changes with players having to leave ...someone is putting two fingers up at the English game.

Fans are going to have to boycott their matches...
so what with their 2 fans and their dogs the authorities might realise something is very very wrong with the game if people aren't willing to out up with it.

As it stands, no one thinks the issue of systemic corruption has been dealt with.

‘ As it stands, no one thinks the issue of systemic corruption has been dealt with‘.

Not sure about that. Plenty do and are of the view that they were punished according to the agreement and are now to be checked regularly. If they are now ‘clean’ then so be it.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Excellent article John Tee. I fully concur with your thinking and IMO Saracens have got away with it and have not had any meaningful punishment to overcome. Their playing staff remains the same, one assumes on the same level of earnings, which I find totally baffling in view of the salary cap, and their expectations as current Lions and international players.

I took time yesterday to read some of the Saracen's fan site and was quite shocked and dismayed by the tone of what I read. They really are a sanctimonious bunch and go on about what are wonderful philanthropist Mr Wray is, doing so much for their club, their players, society in general and the community. Never mind they broke the rules to which Mr Wray signed up, just that they have begrudgingly had to accept the slap on the wrist and now want to move forward, sweeping all their misgivings under the carpet as if they never happend. This is certainly not the attitude I want to see and hear from those aspiring to be leaders of the sport I love. What example is it to youngsters? If we haven't got it, go and bend the rules and basically take what you want, ie steal a march on everyone else who either didn't think of how to do so or couldn't have funded it. Very wholesome, I don't think. And by the way, those players receiving the benefits are neither stupid or thick, and must have realised they were on to a good thing, especially as they are not available at other clubs, as far as we know.

The whole sorry tale leaves a very bad taste in the mouth and I personally hope Bath are not involved in any such shannegins as I would want to win fair and square a d not by basically cheating.

I am in two minds about whether we should allow Mr Wray into our ground, if as it has been reported he got turned away, as it might have dome him good to witness how a side like ours struggles with injuries and form, especially against a side like his packed with superstars. And by the way without the incentives he has been handing out like confetti.

Adopted player 2020/21 Beno 'the Transformer' Obano


Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.The Jink Joseph.
Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

will have to see if they are happy with their basics.....now that they've supposed to have taken down the JV's.

if players have agreed on a sum of 500k a year...which is made up of 250k in cap and 250k, for example in JV, then at some point you will want it...
how do you pay it because it will count in cap...?

The punishment was a naive joke...but it was all they could do at the time. Im saying the owners need a rethink and fans boycotting games could focus that need to rethink ....but basically who wants to watch a bent game. Some so called rugby sports fans apparently..
That part is very puzzling to me...

If* it is no longer ‘bent’ then what’s the point in banging on about it every week? There are plenty of games played every weekend which don’t include Saracens. I’m not going to let them spoil the game for me TBH.

(*and surely we have to hope that this will be the case going forward)

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

gaz59
The next round of Premiership games have to be crucial. Lose all those and surely Craig must have the challenging conversation
Win two of those and Hooper has some breathing space

Just one win and a bp say and it will take some convincing to keep status quo especially if likes of London Irish and Worcester are picking up more points

Agree , but what about the forthcoming Euro games will there be a conversation about those as well ??

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

No, I don’t think so. CA are one of the tournament favourites who very rarely lose at home, we are effectively out of the competition and we need to focus on those prem games IMO. As low seeds in the comp against high seeds we are expected to lose. We should go for it with a pragmatic selection and if we lose well then OK. Would be a good opportunity to try some things that would help us in the prem games though - there are a couple of guys who have put their hands up recently (I would play Douglas for example).

Also, doing whatever give the best chance of keeping Obano, Dunn and Stewart injury free during the next 2 games is absolutely essential...getting the second choice front row clicking is also essential.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

Old Bath Tub

Quote:

gaz59
The next round of Premiership games have to be crucial. Lose all those and surely Craig must have the challenging conversation
Win two of those and Hooper has some breathing space

Just one win and a bp say and it will take some convincing to keep status quo especially if likes of London Irish and Worcester are picking up more points

Agree , but what about the forthcoming Euro games will there be a conversation about those as well ??

Absolutely if we are beaten heavily at home.

Interesting that the 2 clubs struggling the most (Tigs/Bath) both have work experience DOR's that are rightly coming under pressure.

Wasps are struggling as well and yet they have one of the longest standing DORs

So correct me if I'm wrong Wasps have had Alex Lozowski, Billy Vunipola and Eliot Daly all recruited by Saracens. Is it any wonder Lawrence Dallaglio isn't a fan.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

hemington
Wasps are struggling as well and yet they have one of the longest standing DORs

Bit different in that they are a complete mess off the field
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow�

Well I will be travelling 70 miles to Bath on Friday, braving the horrors of the Christmas market to try to find somewhere to park and will shout for Bath, but the main reason for going is more to see Clermont play, even though their salary cap is probably bigger than ours, and hope it is a good open game of rugby.