SHAMROCK SHOWDOWN: LONDON IRISH v BATH

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P G Tips
Seems Rhys may be out for a while:
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]

Looks like Bailey or Matavesi at 10 this weekend.

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P G Tips
Looks good Charlie but Muir went off for HIA last week so may not be fit. No news on Bayliss' recovery from HIA yet either.

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shipwrecked
.... its Landy for me!

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Optimist

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shipwrecked
.... its Landy for me!

Shipwrecked .... are you trying to get us emotionally tied into Bailey by giving him a nickname??? Is this a new, subtle part of your campaign for him to start every match?

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shipwrecked
Landy ... thats his name as used in the team

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Optimist

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shipwrecked
Landy ... thats his name as used in the team

You gotta love the sheer weight of imagination that went into that 'nick' name. If his name was actually 'Landy', he'd have been 'nick' named 'Lando'.

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Optimist
Spencer?

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shipwrecked
[video]Miles Reid at 1 min 45 secs, Muir's nick name is 'Romeo' , not sure we should ask about that!

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charlieboa

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Optimist
Spencer?

I reckon so.

Lots to like in that 23.....

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hemington
with the exception of Chudley. If only he could play like he did at Exeter. Sometimes you see a hint of it but most of the time he seems too preoccupied with organising the backs with arm waving etc. and slowing the game down. Is it confidence or what?

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BathMatt53

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hemington
with the exception of Chudley. If only he could play like he did at Exeter. Sometimes you see a hint of it but most of the time he seems too preoccupied with organising the backs with arm waving etc. and slowing the game down. Is it confidence or what?

I think Chudders is actually a good call tomorrow, Fox and OB would be a green set of half backs. Would be nice to have experienced heads around him to take some of the pressure off and let him play his game.

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joethefanatic
Bailey is definitely OB2 because "Landy" is frankly unacceptable as a nickname for anyone.
A glimpse of the future - very exciting

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shipwrecked

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joethefanatic
Bailey is definitely OB2 because "Landy" is frankly unacceptable as a nickname for anyone.
A glimpse of the future - very exciting

He is called "Landy" because he has a big motor, 4 wheel drive and all terrain boots.

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Susanne
Referee: Craig Maxwell-Keys (91st Premiership game). Assistant Referees: Robert Warburton & Philip Watters. TMO: David Grashoff. Citing Officer: Duncan Bell.
Always makes me smile to see Belly as citing officer - classic poacher turned gamekeeper!

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Bath Supporter Jack
That's more like it.
And when OB ("Landy") misses a kick lets (metaphorically) get behind him and not on his case!!!

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RockNRoweller
Regarding Bailey’s nickname, I think I heard the squad calling him ‘Ors’ when I watched them train. They might have been shouting at Horse though... who knows!

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P G Tips
Not sure if Henry Thomas was Academy charlie but I certainly remember him in both Minis & Youth sections at Bath.
PG

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Optimist
It’s so weird how there sometimes appears to be a conspiracy of silence on forward passes. The commentators didn’t even mention it for LI’s 2nd try and yet Rogerson was actually standing ahead of the passer so it was literally impossible not to be a forward pass.

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Optimist
JJ now overdoing the first receiver role. Let Bailey get on with it.

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shipwrecked
Now that is a game changing substitution Stuart, Dunn, Obano!

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Dorset Boy
Yellow for Irish

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Dorset Boy
2 BPs
Had Spencer got the last 2 conversion we would have won.
Great response to the 2 reds and yellow.

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dcsh
I thought that there were a lot of Irish runners ahead of the ball carrier throughout the game that were engaging/ blocking our player, but they only got penalised late on, both of our reds happened when they did this.

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nick holder
why not trust Bailey to take kicks at goal??

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dr.bath1865
Oh and thought Walker had his best game in a Bath shirt.

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stephen4944

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dcsh
I thought that there were a lot of Irish runners ahead of the ball carrier throughout the game that were engaging/ blocking our player, but they only got penalised late on, both of our reds happened when they did this.

Dunn's red and Ewels' second yellow were both contacting players ahead of the ball.

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Murty7
And another one why was Cowan shoulder charge into maul not looked at should have been yellow it was much worse than what ewels did. He didn't wrap and didn't bind its illegal but because he hit Thomas on the shoulder he got away with it.
It may be obvious but really not happy with the impact of inconsistent decisions on the result of this match

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Murty7
And another one why was Cowan shoulder charge into maul not looked at should have been yellow it was much worse than what ewels did. He didn't wrap and didn't bind its illegal but because he hit Thomas on the shoulder he got away with it.
It may be obvious but really not happy with the impact of inconsistent decisions on the result of this match

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The Bear

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stephen4944

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dcsh
I thought that there were a lot of Irish runners ahead of the ball carrier throughout the game that were engaging/ blocking our player, but they only got penalised late on, both of our reds happened when they did this.

Dunn's red and Ewels' second yellow were both contacting players ahead of the ball.

Personally of the opinion that if you're in front of the ball carrier and obstructing the defence, you deserve every shoulder in the back you get. It's not head contact and given you can't tackle you should be entitled to move them out of the way.

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malco
What have we learnt from this farce?
1. For whatever reason Joseph and Cokanasiga are not currently playing well enough to justify their places

2. Bailey is going to be a fine player but is not ready to play at this level

3. London Irish have some exciting young backs

4. London Irish have some cynical cheats in the forwards

5. Craig Maxwell Keys is a weak and gullible referee

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malco
What have we learnt from this farce?
1. For whatever reason Joseph and Cokanasiga are not currently playing well enough to justify their places

2. Bailey is going to be a fine player but is not ready to play at this level

3. London Irish have some exciting young backs

4. London Irish have some cynical cheats in the forwards

5. Craig Maxwell Keys is a weak and gullible referee

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P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG

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malco

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P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG

I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.

I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.

I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.

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malco

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P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG

I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.

I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.

I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.

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shipwrecked

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malco

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P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG

I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.

I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.

I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.

Age old question, how do you get experience?

No idea what his game management is like because it was taken away from him and passed on to leading experienced international like JJ, Ewels and Spencer only one of whom was up to it, one had a confused game missing tackles and throwing impossible passes and one of whom made the same mistake twice and saw red.

Young players are not constrained by fear and just play what they see. We are trying to install this in our senior players and internationals, yet we are constraining it our youngsters. I don't think that is a god idea.

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malco
You get experience by playing in the United team. Which he hasn't.

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shipwrecked

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malco

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P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG

I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.

I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.

I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.

Age old question, how do you get experience?

No idea what his game management is like because it was taken away from him and passed on to leading experienced international like JJ, Ewels and Spencer only one of whom was up to it, one had a confused game missing tackles and throwing impossible passes and one of whom made the same mistake twice and saw red.

Young players are not constrained by fear and just play what they see. We are trying to install this in our senior players and internationals, yet we are constraining it our youngsters. I don't think that is a god idea.

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malco
You get experience by playing in the United team. Which he hasn't.

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shipwrecked

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malco

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P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG

I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.

I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.

I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.

Age old question, how do you get experience?

No idea what his game management is like because it was taken away from him and passed on to leading experienced international like JJ, Ewels and Spencer only one of whom was up to it, one had a confused game missing tackles and throwing impossible passes and one of whom made the same mistake twice and saw red.

Young players are not constrained by fear and just play what they see. We are trying to install this in our senior players and internationals, yet we are constraining it our youngsters. I don't think that is a god idea.

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hasta

Spencer had a real off day. Stupid penalty kicking the ball out of the scrum half's hand. Missed touch at the end. Missed touch for them to run back and score, a few very short finders. Goal kicking not great. .

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joethefanatic
Just watched the game. Very frustrated at the stupidity on show but it was clear that we'd turned up expecting to win and then got upset when Irish were competitive..

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LSAR
McNally another good game

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charlieboa
I was v surprised when the discussion on ewels was pen or yellow as looked yellow at least, and v possible red to me based on officiating in recent weeks.
Likewise muir was v lucky that he landed OK, could v easily been red.

Dunns was odd but hard to argue.

Extraordinary to be so ill disciplined in the current environment- crazy shooting of ones own foot!

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Beergoggles

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charlieboa
I was v surprised when the discussion on ewels was pen or yellow as looked yellow at least, and v possible red to me based on officiating in recent weeks.
Likewise muir was v lucky that he landed OK, could v easily been red.

Dunns was odd but hard to argue.

Extraordinary to be so ill disciplined in the current environment- crazy shooting of ones own foot!

I’ve only had the option to watch it on premier league highlights but the Ewels second yellow and Dunn red were both to me odd and soft. Both decisions technically correct but a strong ref would have asked what both LI players were doing ahead of the ball blocking the play. It almost looked like Dunn’s was an angry flick out to say ‘get out of the ****y way’. Maybe we need a new rule to say that illegal blocking is cheating and a firm punch on the nose from the defending player is permissible.

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Disunited
Blarney
Re Creevy / Dunn... best get a new HD TV!

Muir was lucky and Ewels stupid to lose control.

Anyway, I like your back 3 and look forward to seeing them in the BB&W.

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Florida

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Disunited
Blarney
Re Creevy / Dunn... best get a new HD TV!

Muir was lucky and Ewels stupid to lose control.

Anyway, I like your back 3 and look forward to seeing them in the BB&W.

Can't really see any of our lot leaving to join you these days, there's just nothing in it for them. You've flattered to deceive for too many years and now Bristol have leap frogged you as the number 1 team in the area. They've better facilities, better stadium and are looking much more likely to win things.

Still, thanks for the game, best of luck with the rest of your season.

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AWP
I actually agree with you about Dunn, he knew exactly what he was doing, was a red all day long, and Creevy did as you said in my eye.

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P G Tips
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.

We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.

What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.

PG

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shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.

To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.

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APigUnderEachArm

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P G Tips
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.

We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.

What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.

PG

See for yourselves.

[www.youtube.com] at approx 3:30

Creevy is slowing up, Dunn appears to lead out with his elbow rather than trying to avoid. IMV.

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.

To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.

The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.

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shipwrecked

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APigUnderEachArm

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P G Tips
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.

We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.

What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.

PG

See for yourselves.

[www.youtube.com] at approx 3:30

Creevy is slowing up, Dunn appears to lead out with his elbow rather than trying to avoid. IMV.

I agree but Creevy should never be there, the ball is miles away, should Dunn take the collision and risk injury head injury possibility?

Creepy is not innocent in all this, he knew exactly what he was doing.

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked

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APigUnderEachArm

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P G Tips
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.

We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.

What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.

PG

See for yourselves.

[www.youtube.com] at approx 3:30

Creevy is slowing up, Dunn appears to lead out with his elbow rather than trying to avoid. IMV.

I agree but Creevy should never be there, the ball is miles away, should Dunn take the collision and risk injury head injury possibility?

Creepy is not innocent in all this, he knew exactly what he was doing.

Well if the ball is miles away then what is Dunn trying to achieve?

I dislike the dummy runner stuff, it seems to have been a Kiwi invention, but it is part of the game these days and only really matters when interfering with the actual ball player/receiver. Creevy's run is barely commentable in the overall context.

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shipwrecked

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.

To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.

The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.

No, sorry think of the physics of that, a hand of towards a forward at speed if straight could lead to a broken arm, or would just crumple. Why didn't Creevy slow up? He had time, he was on a run to punch a hole with the ball nowhere close. You can't absolve Creevy of blame, he is not an innocent victim.

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shipwrecked

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked

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APigUnderEachArm

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P G Tips
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.

We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.

What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.

PG

See for yourselves.

[www.youtube.com] at approx 3:30

Creevy is slowing up, Dunn appears to lead out with his elbow rather than trying to avoid. IMV.

I agree but Creevy should never be there, the ball is miles away, should Dunn take the collision and risk injury head injury possibility?

Creepy is not innocent in all this, he knew exactly what he was doing.

Well if the ball is miles away then what is Dunn trying to achieve?

I dislike the dummy runner stuff, it seems to have been a Kiwi invention, but it is part of the game these days and only really matters when interfering with the actual ball player/receiver. Creevy's run is barely commentable in the overall context.

Answered above, equally.... if the ball is miles away then what is Creevy trying to achieve?

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.

To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.

The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.

No, sorry think of the physics of that, a hand of towards a forward at speed if straight could lead to a broken arm, or would just crumple. Why didn't Creevy slow up? He had time, he was on a run to punch a hole with the ball nowhere close. You can't absolve Creevy of blame, he is not an innocent victim.

Got no idea what you're watching or what eyes you are using now. Dunn could have easily just shoved Creevy ( who was slowing down from not that fast ). You seem so be suggesting an elbow to the jaw in that situation is fair enough. Well I disagree strongly.

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shipwrecked

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.

To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.

The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.

No, sorry think of the physics of that, a hand of towards a forward at speed if straight could lead to a broken arm, or would just crumple. Why didn't Creevy slow up? He had time, he was on a run to punch a hole with the ball nowhere close. You can't absolve Creevy of blame, he is not an innocent victim.

Got no idea what you're watching or what eyes you are using now. Dunn could have easily just shoved Creevy ( who was slowing down from not that fast ). You seem so be suggesting an elbow to the jaw in that situation is fair enough. Well I disagree strongly.

If you are going to comment you have to be balanced or you simply loose all credibility. In no way did I say that. That is offensive. Be reasonable or don't post.

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked

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APigUnderEachArm

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shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.

To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.

The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.

No, sorry think of the physics of that, a hand of towards a forward at speed if straight could lead to a broken arm, or would just crumple. Why didn't Creevy slow up? He had time, he was on a run to punch a hole with the ball nowhere close. You can't absolve Creevy of blame, he is not an innocent victim.

Got no idea what you're watching or what eyes you are using now. Dunn could have easily just shoved Creevy ( who was slowing down from not that fast ). You seem so be suggesting an elbow to the jaw in that situation is fair enough. Well I disagree strongly.

If you are going to comment you have to be balanced or you simply loose all credibility. In no way did I say that. That is offensive. Be reasonable or don't post.

Offensive?! Jeez. I didn't say you said that I said you suggested it since you seem to imply that Dunn had no other option because of where Creevy was positioned. I disagree, he made a deliberate, unnecessary action. Think your representation of facts is significantly less balanced.

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dr.bath1865
Without wanting to give spoilers, a try that was just disallowed in the Leicester game because of an off the ball elbow looked a lot like Dunn’s red to me. Just a penalty awarded in today’s game.
I agree - the cards yesterday looked fair to me but judging by what Dickson is giving today, I wish he’d reffed our game yesterday!

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SJS
For me, Creevy was guilty of breaching law 9.2 - An offside player must not intentionally obstruct an opponent or interfere with play. Clearly in front of the ball, and deliberately running into Dunn.

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Dorset Boy
Next time I suspect Dunn will allow himelf to get him, go down like a sack of spuds, and pretend to be an Argie soccer player.

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hasta
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?

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Bath Hammer
At the end of all this we are 9th in the table & with all the stars in our lineup have to do a whole lot better if we expect to get in the top 6.

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Dorset Boy

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Bath Hammer
At the end of all this we are 9th in the table & with all the stars in our lineup have to do a whole lot better if we expect to get in the top 6.

Except we're 8th and 5 points off 5th.

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hasta
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?

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malco

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hasta
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?

I've looked at this very carefully again.

Dunn was very static in defence and was ball watching. He was looking to see if a runner was going to cut back inside and was guarding the fringe of the breakdown.

He wasn't watching Creevy.

Creevy instigated contact. He was ahead of the ball and was approaching from Dunn's blindside. He was in an upright position and was clearly intent on taking Dunn out of the defensive line.

Dunn spotted him late and threw his arms up in the air as a reflex action. There is no doubt that his elbow caught Creevy in the throat. I don't believe he had any intention of striking Creevy at all. If he hadn't struck him I think it's very likely that Bath would (or at least should) have been awarded a penalty for Creevy being offside and taking Dunn out.

I think Creevy knew exactly what he was doing. It was a cynical bit of play, but Creevy is a cynical player, playing a cynical game. He rolled around to make sure he got maximum attention and then got up and trotted back as soon as the ref reached for his pocket.

According to the latest sanctions Dunn probably had to go. He hit Creevy in the throat with his elbow.

However, once again, in my view the law is an ass.

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Margin_Walker

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malco

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hasta
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?

I've looked at this very carefully again.

Dunn was very static in defence and was ball watching. He was looking to see if a runner was going to cut back inside and was guarding the fringe of the breakdown.

He wasn't watching Creevy.

Creevy instigated contact. He was ahead of the ball and was approaching from Dunn's blindside. He was in an upright position and was clearly intent on taking Dunn out of the defensive line.

Dunn spotted him late and threw his arms up in the air as a reflex action. There is no doubt that his elbow caught Creevy in the throat. I don't believe he had any intention of striking Creevy at all. If he hadn't struck him I think it's very likely that Bath would (or at least should) have been awarded a penalty for Creevy being offside and taking Dunn out.

I think Creevy knew exactly what he was doing. It was a cynical bit of play, but Creevy is a cynical player, playing a cynical game. He rolled around to make sure he got maximum attention and then got up and trotted back as soon as the ref reached for his pocket.

According to the latest sanctions Dunn probably had to go. He hit Creevy in the throat with his elbow.

However, once again, in my view the law is an ass.

I've honestly no idea what you've been watching. It's here at 3.17. Creevy is coming to a stop in front of Dunn, with the ball long gone. It's the kind of innocuous interaction that happens dozens of times a game. Only this time Dunn lunges forward with his elbow into Creevy's throat.

[www.youtube.com]

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Margin_Walker
Okay Malco. Will leave you to it. Although I'd say it was Dunn who instigated contact fairly forcefully, rather than Creevy.

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malco

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Margin_Walker
Okay Malco. Will leave you to it. Although I'd say it was Dunn who instigated contact fairly forcefully, rather than Creevy.

Nope. If Creevy hadn't run at Dunn with the intention of taking out Dunn, Dunn would not have made contact with Creevy.

As I say, the fact that Dunn indisputably made contact with Creevy's throat with his elbow means that he has to go. But that's what you want rugby to be now is it? A cynical competition to try to get your opponents sent off with added rolling around on the floor?

In my view it's the death of rugby.

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gaz59

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hasta
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?

Exactly hasta. And what aspect of the game are the authorities trying to eliminate through sanctions?

Yes, it was an instictive reaction. No it wasn't ever likely to cause any injury but absolutely it was foul play and a strike to the neck/head so red card it had to be. Dunn, other players and coaching team simply need to learn from it but it can take some time to coach someone out of habitual, instinctive reactions

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woodpecker
Lets park what Dunn did, he shouldn't have done it and he got a red card, fine. The question is what was Creevy trying to do before that. He isn't paying attention to the ball and he is delberately heading for Dunn who is almost static.

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Never In Doubt
If Dunn hadn't made contact with Creevy, then the run of Creevy would never have been discussed. It's one of those annoying dummy runs that are never going to confuse a defence but do clutter up the game.
Dunn is at fault and I think he knows that when he apologises to Creevy as he is sent off. He is an excellent club man and leader and clearly wanted to make an impact from the bench for the team. I am sure he will not do anything this dumb again even if I don't think there was malice involved.

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malco
If I thought that Dunn had made a conscious decision to elbow Creevy in the throat I would be calling for him to have a few weeks off. I don't see that at all.

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BathMatt53

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malco
If I thought that Dunn had made a conscious decision to elbow Creevy in the throat I would be calling for him to have a few weeks off. I don't see that at all.

That's the same as most of the red cards though isn't it, for example taking someone out in the air? I doubt any of the player are running towards the jumper thinking 'I'm going to take this guy out in the air'. It's unconscious, but nonetheless foul play. I agree that Dunn wasn't thinking he wanted to elbow him in the throat and I'm sure the RFU disciplinary matrix will show exactly that.

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BathMatt53

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malco
If I thought that Dunn had made a conscious decision to elbow Creevy in the throat I would be calling for him to have a few weeks off. I don't see that at all.

That's the same as most of the red cards though isn't it, for example taking someone out in the air? I doubt any of the player are running towards the jumper thinking 'I'm going to take this guy out in the air'. It's unconscious, but nonetheless foul play. I agree that Dunn wasn't thinking he wanted to elbow him in the throat and I'm sure the RFU disciplinary matrix will show exactly that.

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malco
Now you cheat to try to get your opponent sent off. You roll around on the ground, squeal like a @#$%& and then jog off when the ref pulls the card out. That is the death of all of the core values of rugby.

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Norton Canes
Rumour that Will Muir has been cited ?

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dcsh

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Norton Canes
Rumour that Will Muir has been cited ?

Can he be cited even though he was punished by the yellow card at the time? I had it in mind that citing was only for incidents that were missed at the time or like in last week’s Newcastle match when the officials decide to ‘put it on report’.