GET UP A GALLOP. ZEBRE v BATH

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:06:07:57:57 by P G Tips.

I'd be surprised if we didn't start Obano and Stuart - they've not really been over-played. And I wonder if Zach will get a rest for Reid. Would be pretty happy to see Zach coming on for the last 20.

Would really like to see Gray given a proper opportunity too, but I guess 10/12/13 containing Bailey and Gray might be a bit green. Clark was a microcosm of our mixed bag against LI - hopefully this run of games will put him in position to deliver a bit more consistency.

Where there's Stooke and McConnochie, there's hope.

4 games to a much needed trophy, forget the Prem, these are the games that matter this season.

Quote:

ballsout
4 games to a much needed trophy, forget the Prem, these are the games that matter this season.

Tend to agree BO.

Winning a trophy would be v significant at this stage of hoops/hats reign and in the development of this young squad.

One potential upside of Saturday is maybe hoops improbable target of top 4 will be ditched in favour of trying to win this tournament and ensuring players who need games get them in the league.

we have an aggressive defence? i didnt realise we had any kind of defence. easily the worst record in the prem and the only team not to have a dedicated defence coach. anyone else able to connect the dots?

Actually BOA, while our defence is often porous in broken play, in recent matches it has been aggressive at set piece and breakdown. Check out Worcester, Newcastle and Northampton games to see how it forced the opposition to concede ground in possession and eventually cough up the ball or give away a penalty.


PG

Hyper aggressive defence was certainly a feature of the mini-season. It's still there in the forwards, but we don't have a single destructive tackler amongst any of our backs. Roko can conjure a big hit occasionally, but that's about it.

Quote:

Optimist
Hyper aggressive defence was certainly a feature of the mini-season. It's still there in the forwards, but we don't have a single destructive tackler amongst any of our backs. Roko can conjure a big hit occasionally, but that's about it.

Joe C should be but isn't.

Quote:

Optimist
Hyper aggressive defence was certainly a feature of the mini-season. It's still there in the forwards, but we don't have a single destructive tackler amongst any of our backs. Roko can conjure a big hit occasionally, but that's about it.

Do we need aggressive defence? Don't we just need a defence, we can win the ball through our destructive forward tackling, or just through our forwards.

I'd prefer a rampant attack!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:30:13:08:07 by shipwrecked.

I would imagine Zach will get a rest considering how much rugby he has played recently for us. Would also like to see Will Spencer start alongside Josh, try and get him up to fitness for the business end of the season. Wouldn’t be surprised if we see Redpath at 12.

I’m quite looking forward to this game, just hope I get back from work in time or will be watching it on the phone at the side of the road!!

I'd be making a few changes this week. I think Spencer, Mercer and Watson all need a week off as have all played a lot of rugby in the last 2 months. Prob start Chudley at 9 and tell OB he's running the game. Then let's see what he can do.
Will Spencer also needs game time. I'd also like to see more of Ojomoh but maybe off the bench as starting him with OB may be a bit green.

About the aggressive attack or defence, the answer will depend on the match circumstances, you want both to be available at certain times.

During the 6N I saw rush defence catching out the midfield off a lineout but another time a very passive defence catch out the attack when the 1st phase clever training ground lineout move was all played out by the time the defence engaged.

Not the sort of thing that you want to attempt 5m from your line but shows a certain creativity without the ball.

"The Horse attempting to outrun a Zebra"

Absolutely Classic!!

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
"The Horse attempting to outrun a Zebra"
Absolutely Classic!!

As long as he is not corralled by the citing committee.


Tyler Offiah
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:30:15:33:51 by Mike the Taxi.

Chron confirming Redpath not right yet, Matavesi possibly a week away, De Glanville close but probably not this week.

Bayliss fit and in the mix:
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P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:31:10:24:44 by P G Tips.

Team up. McNally Skipper. Beno's hundredth:

Bath Rugby side to face Zebre

15. Anthony Watson, 14. Semesa Rokoduguni, 13. Max Clark, 12. Max Ojomoh, 11. Joe Cokanasiga, 10. Orlando Bailey, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Beno Obano, 2. Jack Walker, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally ©, 5. Elliott Stooke, 6. Miles Reid, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Taulupe Faletau

Replacements

16. Jacques du Toit, 17. Jamie Bhatti, 18. Henry Thomas, 19. Will Spencer, 20. Josh Bayliss, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Max Wright, 23. Alex Gray

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Ojomoh at 12! Interesting. Will be good to see him getting a decent run-out.

Where's this on TV?

BT Sport 3 I believe

BT sport 3

one worries about the mid field defence. one of the great failures of the coaches in recent times is the total failure to provide any alternative to jj at 13. no good for him either as he hasn't been stretched and has played too many games on auto.

Shame we don't have Max Green on the bench, so we could have had Maxes Clark, Wright, Ojomoh and Green for maximum Max. Shame Max Lahiff went (or not, judging by his recent media interviews!😂) cos then we could have had five Maxes on the field at once.

In fact, I move we should only recruit and select players called Max. TBF, as strategies go it couldn't do any worse that we have this season!

Quote:

SJS
In fact, I move we should only recruit and select players called Max. TBF, as strategies go it couldn't do any worse that we have this season!

We have quite a lot of Wills too Muir, Stuart, Chudley, Spencer, Vaughan & Butt. Not to forget Toms: de Glanville, Ellis, Doughety, Dunn, Carr-Smith and Jeanes. We even have 3 Josh's: Matevesi, McNally and Bayliss

Quote:

bardofavon
one worries about the mid field defence. one of the great failures of the coaches in recent times is the total failure to provide any alternative to jj at 13. no good for him either as he hasn't been stretched and has played too many games on auto.

Given that Bailey and Max O have played so many times together at school and also England age grade I am OK with this. Max Clarke is a strong defensive centre IMO. Excited to see how they get on a congrats for Beno for his centenary and Max for his first.

COYB!

(note to self: don't forget that the game kicks off at 3pm UK time on Good Friday!)

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[youtu.be]

Quote:

SJS
Shame we don't have Max Green on the bench, so we could have had Maxes Clark, Wright, Ojomoh and Green for maximum Max. Shame Max Lahiff went (or not, judging by his recent media interviews!😂) cos then we could have had five Maxes on the field at once.
In fact, I move we should only recruit and select players called Max. TBF, as strategies go it couldn't do any worse that we have this season!

Aside from being pretty impressed with recruitment I like this! Having read Hemington's post I wonder how close we'd be to putting out a 15 with just 3 forenames... (No time to see for myself!). Plaudits also to all the recent punsters who've resisted the chance to note that playing Zebre is the perfect opportunity for Ojomoh and Bailey to earn their stripes because that would be awful!!

Stronger team that I expected. I thought we may rest Ben Spencer and a couple of others. Still I can't wait to see what OB and Ojomoh can do. Hope they give OB a bit more responsibility this week. Although I'd leave place kicking with Spencer.

Quote:

WellyBathChief
Although I'd leave place kicking with Spencer.

With Spencer a left foot kicker and OB a right I think that they should alternate based on field position.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

TomReagan
Plaudits also to all the recent punsters who've resisted the chance to note that playing Zebre is the perfect opportunity for Ojomoh and Bailey to earn their stripes because that would be awful!!

😂

Quote:

SJS

Quote:

TomReagan
Plaudits also to all the recent punsters who've resisted the chance to note that playing Zebre is the perfect opportunity for Ojomoh and Bailey to earn their stripes because that would be awful!!

😂

It would, so let's simply hope they end the match with their tails up!

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Zebre 23:

Di Giuli Fischetti, Bigi, Zilocchi, Sisi, Nagle, Leavasa, Mbanda, Giammarioli. Violi, Canna.Bruno, Boni (Capt), Lucchin, D'Onofrio.Di Giulio

Replacements: Fabiani, Lovotti, Bello, Krumov, Bianchi, Renton, Pescetto, Mori

Without Venditti, Meyer (big loss IMHO) and the sparkle of Bellini.

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Very good PGT. Sensed there was some literary wit there but never heard of a Bellini. You clearly move in more sophisticated circles!

Bigi: wasn't he on the Donald's team?

Lots of his comments involved the phrase 'we're going to do this Bigi'.

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

WellyBathChief
Although I'd leave place kicking with Spencer.

With Spencer a left foot kicker and OB a right I think that they should alternate based on field position.

Good point Matt. Does anyone know how good a goalkicker OB is. If he's the next Wilko then let him crack on. If he's not then I'm still happy to leave it to someone else and let him concentrate on the rest of his game. Key for me though is letting him decide when to kick run or pass. Last week it seemed to be that he was told Spencer will kick if needed so he should just run or pass (which he did pretty well).

Quote:

WellyBathChief
Does anyone know how good a goalkicker OB is.

I have seen him practice up at Shaft Road and he seemed pretty good with the pressure off. Mind you, his kick in the game before last was pretty sweet too.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

TomReagan

Quote:

SJS
Shame we don't have Max Green on the bench, so we could have had Maxes Clark, Wright, Ojomoh and Green for maximum Max. Shame Max Lahiff went (or not, judging by his recent media interviews!😂) cos then we could have had five Maxes on the field at once.
In fact, I move we should only recruit and select players called Max. TBF, as strategies go it couldn't do any worse that we have this season!

Aside from being pretty impressed with recruitment I like this! Having read
Hemington's post I wonder how close we'd be to putting out a 15 with just 3 forenames... (No time to see for myself!). Plaudits also to
all the recent punsters who've resisted
the chance to note that playing Zebre is the perfect opportunity for Ojomoh and Bailey to earn their stripes because that would be awful!!

At the risk of prolonging this non rugby diversion it is making me think how lacking imagination are post 2021 parents. There are plenty of alternative names out there that never get a look in probably because they aren’t considered to be fashionable. It will probably go full swing when these overused names switch from being fashionable to being common. C’est la vie !

By the 14th century over 50% of men were called John, William, Robert or Thomas so its not just 2021 parents tbf.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

For someone who can never remember people's names I'd have found that quite helpful!

Quote:

Bath Hammer

At the risk of prolonging this non rugby diversion it is making me think how lacking imagination are post 2021 parents. There are plenty of alternative names out there that never get a look in probably because they aren’t considered to be fashionable. It will probably go full swing when these overused names switch from being fashionable to being common. C’est la vie !

I dunno, Orlando is pretty out there...

Quote:

TomReagan
Very good PGT. Sensed there was some literary wit there but never heard of a Bellini. You clearly move in more sophisticated circles!

I can lay claim to having drunk a Bellini at Cipriani's!

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:01:18:24:48 by joethefanatic.

French referee 7-0 down after 4 mins

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FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Too many penalties now , Bath all over the place . 14-0. !!!!!!!!

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14 down after 10. Hooper out. Looks like Bath thought they just had to turn up.

Good try big Joe

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Great try for Big Joe !

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Zebra winger on Cokanagsiga lol, got to say he didn't fancy that tackle.

French Refs, Bath advantage then nothing!

Yet another Zebra try

Scrum looking good so far , but lose the breakdown for Zebre to score again . 21-7.

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Yellow for Miles Reid for high tackle.
Kick missed off post.

It’s another one of those games when we are not clinical & cannot hold on to the ball plus soft defence. Pathetic so far.

Nothing wrong with that tackle. He is low bent in half, what could he do?

This could end up really embarrassing!

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Bath, totally incapable of holding onto the ball and controlling possession????

Well I never.

I have edited the Hooper must go thread, and frankly I would leave him in Italy to find his own way home!

Need new coaches. Just not good enough.

I’m beginning to think Stuart Hooper pre - match just said “ enjoy the sun boy’s- this will be a walk in the park ! “

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Try Will Stuart. !

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Does Flatman think Will Stuart is a big strong man?

21-14 Half Time.
Team talk should be interesting!

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If Bath do go on to lose it's hard to see how Hooper can keep his job, unless of course the owner isn't too bothered about winning trophies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:02:15:57:32 by OutsideBath.

Why no mention of Hatley getting the sack? He’s the head coach.

Quote:

Woodpecker
Does Flatman think Will Stuart is a big strong man?

Seems to have mentioned it a good few times... but then he seems to say everything 3 or 4 times filling every available moment with his wittering.

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Why no mention of Hatley getting the sack? He’s the head coach.

Because Hooper is in overall charge of the playing side of the club so he has to take the blame.

Quote:

OutsideBath
If Bath do go on to lose it's hard to see how Hooper can keep his job, unless of course the owner isn't too bothered about winning trophies.

Can we never play badly or lose a match without people continually harping on about sacking Hooper. It is repetitive & tedious.

Oooh a half time team-talk from Hooper, Mark Lilley and Ryan Davis. That'll help I'm sure.

Quote:

dcsh

Quote:

Woodpecker
Does Flatman think Will Stuart is a big strong man?

Seems to have mentioned it a good few times... but then he seems to say everything 3 or 4 times filling every available moment with his wittering.

He's beyond tedious.

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

OutsideBath
If Bath do go on to lose it's hard to see how Hooper can keep his job, unless of course the owner isn't too bothered about winning trophies.

Can we never play badly or lose a match without people continually harping on about sacking Hooper. It is repetitive & tedious.

+1

The disallowed try showed what quick ball does and when we get it down the line we are very dangerous. More of that play makers. Their missed kick at goal, terrific carry but we must get support runners on the shoulders of the ball carrier. Quick ball and we will beat this lot, they are tiring.

You do all realise that it’s the final score not the half-time score that counts? We’ve been awful but it’s not actually over yet.

Faletau was invisible in the first half, he needs to make his presence felt now...

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No try ?.

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Just awful officiating. Try all day long. TMO was clearly wrong.

Try now for Beno !

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Try now

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Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Quote:

CoochieCoo

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

OutsideBath
If Bath do go on to lose it's hard to see how Hooper can keep his job, unless of course the owner isn't too bothered about winning trophies.

Can we never play badly or lose a match without people continually harping on about sacking Hooper. It is repetitive & tedious.

+1

But it's true.

There is a guy in the BT studio who would do a good job.

Dreadful French referee only matched by the Italian TV coverage

I can understand it if people think Hooper isn’t up to the job in general, but I don’t think people should be sacked during a poor half.

Really don't get all this coach sacking nonsense, there is 7 points in it and our pack is destroying them.
I don't know if anyone has noticed how big and strong Will Stuart is though. If its not picked up in commentary then the CEO of BT Sport should be sacked immediately!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Poor line outs from Walker

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Zebre now messing about in the scrum .

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Those in the Hooper camp must be getting nervous, when will Bath pull away?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:02:16:35:57 by Bath Blues.

Quote:

shipwrecked
Really don't get all this coach sacking nonsense, there is 7 points in it and our pack is destroying them.
I don't know if anyone has noticed how big and strong Will Stuart is though. If its not picked up in commentary then the CEO of BT Sport should be sacked immediately!

We need to bring a couple of spare coaches so we can sack Hooper at halftime then the second one at full time, but still have one in place for next week.

Hooper is stealing a living.

Lovely break from Orlando.

Phew Bruce’s finger just moved 3cm away from the sacking button

The ref is appalling

Quote:

Woodpecker
Phew Bruce’s finger just moved 3cm away from the sacking button

Clearly Bruce doesn't watch these games otherwise Hoops would have gone a long time ago.

So only those who don’t want to instantly sack Hooper will be pleased that we have gone ahead whilst the rest will be hoping for Zebre drawing level.

Quote:

Bath Hammer
So only those who don’t want to instantly sack Hooper will be pleased that we have gone ahead whilst the rest will be hoping for Zebre drawing level.

Don't be silly, I'm sure everyone wants Bath to win. Just because someone wants Hooper sacked does that mean they can't want Bath to win?

Boy has Zach Mercer had a good game today!

Will Spencer is also very strong but perhaps less big?

Phew!

Well done Bath

Well done to all the coaching staff, very professional performance all round. Cough cough!

Got there in the end !

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Nice kicking from Spencer. Should prevent Hooper from being sacked on the bus home.

That was uglier than a very ugly thing. I'd have taken a 5 try win before the game but not like that. I'm sure there were some positives but I am struggling to think of any right now.

Told myself I could relax with a beer once we looked comfortably ahead. Sober watching indeed.

And new signing de Toit scoring a try might help!

Quote:

Woodpecker
Nice kicking from Spencer. Should prevent Hooper from being sacked on the bus home.

He could still be sacked while he is in the car driving home from Farleigh though. I like the idea of 'single use' coaches Woody, problem is its not very environmentally friendly though is it!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

Optimist
You do all realise that it’s the final score not the half-time score that counts? We’ve been awful but it’s not actually over yet.

Quite.
At 80 is what counts. 27-35 is not the count we wanted but it's certainly enough!

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Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Bath Rugby... making the game more complicated than it needs to be since 1865.

A very incomplete performance rather like last weekend.

Quote:

Rokobilly
That was uglier than a very ugly thing. I'd have taken a 5 try win before the game but not like that. I'm sure there were some positives but I am struggling to think of any right now.
Told myself I could relax with a beer once we looked comfortably ahead. Sober watching indeed.

Cooch, co-commentating on Radio Bristol, was pretty scathing of Bath's performance, and rightly praising Zebre's players.

Bailey's passing and footwork is excellent but his kicking needs a lot of work, that is if he is every allowed to kick! Kicking from 9 every time times is sooo predictable.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Not sure when I have been more disappointed watch Bath win a knockout game in Europe. They’ll need to do a lot better next week to get to the semi’s.

Complacency accounts for a lot of it!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

dcsh
Not sure when I have been more disappointed watch Bath win a knockout game in Europe. .

Surprised you can actually remember it dcsh, must be a while ago! Can't comment on the game-no BT anyway, but actually forgot we were playing, which shows a poor level of commitment on my part (In mitigation, now I'm retired I hadn't even registered it was Good Friday). Anyway, will add my vote to those questioning this 'Hooper out' every time we struggle, but each to their own of course.

Funny how no one seems to have mentioned that Zebre played incredibly well.... lots of italian internationals, fresh off 6 nations poundings happy to get back to their club and show what they can do. Yes Bath were far from good but give the Italians some credit or is that not allowed on this forum.

We were poor, the ref was a bit ordinary, Zebre got a decent bounce or two, losing Underhill early didn't help, and when 9 is constantly distorting his decision-making in order to avoid 10, you are automatically not playing what's in front of you. It was a knock-out game and we won. Next.

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

OutsideBath
If Bath do go on to lose it's hard to see how Hooper can keep his job, unless of course the owner isn't too bothered about winning trophies.

Can we never play badly or lose a match without people continually harping on about sacking Hooper. It is repetitive & tedious.

Must be several posters on here disappointed with the result!

Quote:

Long Term

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

OutsideBath
If Bath do go on to lose it's hard to see how Hooper can keep his job, unless of course the owner isn't too bothered about winning trophies.

Can we never play badly or lose a match without people continually harping on about sacking Hooper. It is repetitive & tedious.

Must be several posters on here disappointed with the result!

You are being utterly ridiculous, I'm sure like myself all the poster want Bath to win.

That really was quite poor and I just wish Spencer would give OB some quick ball and let him make a decision. Spencer slowing every ball down by 2 seconds just meant we never got any fast ball.
And I really don't get the Hooper out comments. 8 weeks ago I didn't agree with them but understood them. Since then we have won 6 of the last 8 how can that justify sacking a DOR?

Quote:

TomReagan

Quote:

dcsh
Not sure when I have been more disappointed watch Bath win a knockout game in Europe. .

Surprised you can actually remember it dcsh, must be a while ago! Can't comment on the game-no BT anyway, but actually forgot we were playing, which shows a poor level of commitment on my part (In mitigation, now I'm retired I hadn't even registered it was Good Friday). Anyway, will add my vote to those questioning this 'Hooper out' every time we struggle, but each to their own of course.

Oh, I remember them winning European knockout games, even in the big cup, away at Leicester is the one that especially comes to mind. But I guess it’s always to do with expectations vs the reality of performance/outcome.

I’m sure that will be great experience for the young players and will continue to build the foundation ps for the future.

Someone will no doubt correct me but if memory serves me right we lost all 6 games in each of the 2 previous seasons and 2 in this, so that's 14 losses on the bounce plus any losses in the season before that (Mind you, this is from someone who forgot we were playing today anyway, and hadn't realised it was Good Friday so could well be wrong). It was our shocking recent record in Europe that I was alluding to!

Didn't watch the game as Big Vase not covered here. I'm glad we won.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

I don't actually think we defended too poorly today in normal play today, especially with a young axis at 10-12. However, one thing that I've noticed both today and across the season is that we seem to be incredibly, incredibly dreadful at defending in broken play. In some form all three tries came today from the ball being turned over, being made into a 50-50 ball or something similar. This seems to have happened across lots of game recently too. I know it isn't exactly an easy thing to coach for, but we have to have some sort of drill to be able to react to things like this, as at the moment it's not just us losing the ball, but seemingly conceding tries within one or two phases of the broken play.

I'd also note that it's sometimes a bit hard to get into the swing of things when the opposition have no interest in engaging in scrummaging in good faith. I think the referee performed pretty poorly at scrum time and should have been much more judicious in blowing his whistle and using his cards. I counted 4 consecutive penalties from the start of the game on our scrums - I feel that if they aren't going to be able to give us a fair platform to attack from then the cards had to come earlier.

Evening all. I'm a new boy to this, though have followed the blog for a while.
Bath-Zebre - does anyone know if (& how) it can be watched now? Or even highlights?

Quite a lot to be disappointed about, but I agree with hemington. When Bath were poor in the first half a lot was due to Zebre making Bath poor. This is a team unbeaten to date in Europe and with virtually the national front 5 on the field. Hooper had referenced their pack strength in his pre match interview-if there was complacency I think it was more from fans than coaches and players.

From 0-14 down, then 7-21Bath found a way to win 27-35. A 6-21 second half is worth congratulating, even if the manner of play and victory was short of expectation.

Like opti I think the loss of Underhill made a big difference. Bath were also without their most aggressive forward (Dunn) and back 3 player (Muir), plus lineout caller (Ewels) and fielded an inexperienced midfield.In the circumstances they did well to come back from a 14 point deficit against a team with their tails up.

Not that they should be happy about the performance - far too passive at the breakdown and poor in reactive defence.

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

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OutsideBath

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Long Term

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Bath Hammer

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OutsideBath
If Bath do go on to lose it's hard to see how Hooper can keep his job, unless of course the owner isn't too bothered about winning trophies.

Can we never play badly or lose a match without people continually harping on about sacking Hooper. It is repetitive & tedious.

Must be several posters on here disappointed with the result!

You are being utterly ridiculous, I'm sure like myself all the poster want Bath to win.

If one says at half time if Bath loose this then Hooper has to go and you are not happy with his being DOR it suggests you would be happy if Bath lost so it results in Hooper getting the sack . This does not specifically refer to you although I think you are in this camp. Personally I am happy we have won so as to give the team and coaches a chance to improve and kick on , no doubt you view me as being overly patient.

Long term, yes I do view yourself and others as overly patient. Each to their own.

To be clear for my part as ever I am pleased when Bath win, but believe Hooper still has to go if we want trophies. I believed he was the wrong appointment to start with and have seen nothing in the results to change my view.

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OutsideBath
Long term, yes I do view yourself and others as overly patient. Each to their own.
To be clear for my part as ever I am pleased when Bath win, but believe Hooper still has to go if we want trophies. I believed he was the wrong appointment to start with and have seen nothing in the results to change my view.

Interesting when you have also stated you haven't watched a Bath match for over a year, so have no way of forming your own opinion of performances or the opportunities given to some of the recent academy graduates.....

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OutsideBath
You are being utterly ridiculous, I'm sure like myself all the poster want Bath to win.

Does anyone seriously think BO would have been silent since half time if we’d lost. His disappointment is palpable.

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OutsideBath
Long term, yes I do view yourself and others as overly patient. Each to their own.
To be clear for my part as ever I am pleased when Bath win, but believe Hooper still has to go if we want trophies. I believed he was the wrong appointment to start with and have seen nothing in the results to change my view.

I think people have to be realistic when calling for Hooper to go because he is the DOR not head coach, who are the prospective potential DORs available and WILLING to take over under Bruce Craig?
who, as he is entitled to as the person funding the club, likes to be (very) involved. Yes Hooper is Craig's man but as such he is a bridge/barrier between Craig and the young coaching team. Hooper wants to establish a successful culture based around the development of academy players at Bath, this takes time but I see signs of this happening and am enjoying watching the progress of Reid, De Glanville, Ojomoh etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:02:20:59:13 by Long Term.

I genuinely wonder if the coaches are embarrassed by how how much of a shambles we often look on the field.

Star players playing like a pub team who've only just met... that's 100% down to coaching.

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Optimist

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OutsideBath
You are being utterly ridiculous, I'm sure like myself all the poster want Bath to win.

Does anyone seriously think BO would have been silent since half time if we’d lost. His disappointment is palpable.

Yaaaay we just about beat Zebre!

Better?

To be fair, our first European win in FOURTEEN games is worth celebrating. Everything is clearly great.

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ballsout
I genuinely wonder if the coaches are embarrassed by how how much of a shambles we often look on the field.
Star players playing like a pub team who've only just met... that's 100% down to coaching.

I would be interested to know which coaches you have in mind to take over and win us trophies, presumably available and keen to come to Bath. Don't say that is Bruce's job as he has chosen Hooper.

Let me think which is more embarrassing, a 'supporter' calling for a DoR to be fired before half time or a team beating a motivated opponent on their own patch over the full 80 minutes with many key players missing. OK, decided....

My goodness I hope we don't play La Rochelle 60% of their rucks are at 2 seconds. Backs like lightning offloads everywhere.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

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shipwrecked
My goodness I hope we don't play La Rochelle 60% of their rucks are at 2 seconds. Backs like lightning offloads everywhere.

We should be safe from them this season since we are in different competitions now.

I notice we didn’t use any of our back replacements today, it would be good to see a bit more of Alex Gray at some point to see if he might have a future with Bath.

Probably also important to recognise that today’s we played with arguably our 4th choice 10 &12 and out 2nd choice 11, 13 & 14, so likely to need more time together to gel.

Got my cups confused, really pleased we won't see them for a while thanks for putting me straight!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Um...no one knows whether/where today's match is watchable? Is there any equivalent of Premiership Rugby TV's full match videos?

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B4thB4ck
Let me think which is more embarrassing, a 'supporter' calling for a DoR to be fired before half time or a team beating a motivated opponent on their own patch over the full 80 minutes with many key players missing. OK, decided....

Point me to where I said Hooper needs to be sacked before half time, please? It might take you a while.

OutsideBath said it, that says it all, to be ignored.

Ironically, I think we get to have another go at London Irish in the quarterfinals. What fun.

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ballsout

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B4thB4ck
Let me think which is more embarrassing, a 'supporter' calling for a DoR to be fired before half time or a team beating a motivated opponent on their own patch over the full 80 minutes with many key players missing. OK, decided....

Point me to where I said Hooper needs to be sacked before half time, please? It might take you a while.

OutsideBath said it, that says it all, to be ignored.

Correct, you never said that, but then I never said you did. I wasn't picking on anyone, just trying to balance out the criticism of the club - as I often do.

I think most of us on here have watched enough rugby over the years to know that some teams start the game on fire but can fade late on. Take the Eng v Scot draw in the 6N a couple of years back.

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ballsout

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B4thB4ck
Let me think which is more embarrassing, a 'supporter' calling for a DoR to be fired before half time or a team beating a motivated opponent on their own patch over the full 80 minutes with many key players missing. OK, decided....

Point me to where I said Hooper needs to be sacked before half time, please? It might take you a while.

OutsideBath said it, that says it all, to be ignored.

I’ve told you before if I want your opinion I’ll tell you what it is first, so in the meantime button it and get yourself back to your homework. If you don’t get yourself an education you’ll remain a pointless loser.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:03:09:30:58 by OutsideBath.

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Keynsham BBW
Um...no one knows whether/where today's match is watchable? Is there any equivalent of Premiership Rugby TV's full match videos?

It's on BT Sport.

I know it’s a valid part off the game but where would we have been in this match & many others if we hadn’t been bailed out by a pretty strong pack. I don’t understand how Flatman can exude praise over our attacking play when most of our moves achieve absolute nothing.

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Bath Hammer
I know it’s a valid part off the game but where would we have been in this match & many others if we hadn’t been bailed out by a pretty strong pack. I don’t understand how Flatman can exude praise over our attacking play when most of our moves achieve absolute nothing.

You actually pay attention to anything Flatman has to say?

Bit surprised to come on here and find people calling for hoops/hats head after 6 wins from the last 8 is it inc away wins to sale and saints?

Saying that we really shouldn't brush under the carpet how dire we have been in the last few games.

Both have really smacked of a dreadful mindset and that is culturally a major worry. Good teams don't suffer from that and would have had both games won by 60 mins imho.

So many basic errors- I can remember simple handling mistakes from roko,/coko/watson etc, dropped restart by stooke, missed line-out throws by walker.....no one working hard enough on the nuts and bolts like ruck clear outs.

Similar to Newcastle game at start of season where we sleep walked into a game and never woke up.

Combined with poor TV coverage and really bad officiating not a very enjoyable experience.

Good for bailey and ojo to get a game and both did ok. Nice for du toit to get a try on debut. Beno and Stuart went well. Good to see bayliss back out there after his head knock. Good goalkicking from spencer as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:03:08:32:25 by charlieboa.

The Italian TV coverage was rubbish. Most camera angles were from the touchline and there was no indication of yellow card durations left slow scoreboard updates. I presume Covid means BT were unable to send camera crew or that its just the Challenge cup.

Perhaps the camera team was from Bath Rugby, which would explain why they took their eyes off the opposition when they were awarded a penalty 5 metres out and missed the first try.

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Optimist
Perhaps the camera team was from Bath Rugby, which would explain why they took their eyes off the opposition when they were awarded a penalty 5 metres out and missed the first try.

Very good, but there was no where near enough wind noise on the mics for it to be a Bath production.

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Optimist
Perhaps the camera team was from Bath Rugby, which would explain why they took their eyes off the opposition when they were awarded a penalty 5 metres out and missed the first try.

clearly something that bath rugby 'learned' from a game v sale at the aj bell a couple of years ago. last minute penalty to sale on the 5 metre line, needing 7 to win. they tapped and went and scored while max lahiff was doing his laces up, max clark was playing with his hair, and sundry other players were facing the wrong way.

max green played pants and had TB tearing his hair out. that was probably the last time we saw green in any serious capacity. you could say that the maxes collectively stuffed up big time that day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:03:09:29:26 by bardofavon.

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bardofavon

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Optimist
Perhaps the camera team was from Bath Rugby, which would explain why they took their eyes off the opposition when they were awarded a penalty 5 metres out and missed the first try.

clearly something that bath rugby 'learned' from a game v sale at the aj bell a couple of years ago. last minute penalty to sale on the 5 metre line, needing 7 to win. they tapped and went and scored while max lahiff was doing his laces up, max clark was playing with his hair, and sundry other players were facing the wrong way.

Remember it fondly and have never quite forgiven clark tbh (sure there was another example of him doing his hair whilst not defending a tap and go)

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P G Tips
Quite a lot to be disappointed about, but I agree with hemington. When Bath were poor in the first half a lot was due to Zebre making Bath poor. This is a team unbeaten to date in Europe and with virtually the national front 5 on the field. Hooper had referenced their pack strength in his pre match interview-if there was complacency I think it was more from fans than coaches and players.
From 0-14 down, then 7-21Bath found a way to win 27-35. A 6-21 second half is worth congratulating, even if the manner of play and victory was short of expectation.

Like opti I think the loss of Underhill made a big difference. Bath were also without their most aggressive forward (Dunn) and back 3 player (Muir), plus lineout caller (Ewels) and fielded an inexperienced midfield.In the circumstances they did well to come back from a 14 point deficit against a team with their tails up.

Not that they should be happy about the performance - far too passive at the breakdown and poor in reactive defence.

i don't often find myself agreeing with mr tips' overly hooperish outlook on all things bath rugby but in this respect he is correct. we fielded a solid pack but, watson aside, a weak set of backs. to come away with a win, away from home, after flying out there the same morning, is a pretty good result i feel.
yes chronic deficiencies in bath rugby were there for all to see- poor defence, poor skills et al- but they didn't lose their heads and for the second week running toughed it out to the 80th minute. all things considered not a bad result. now we have irish again in what needs to be a carefully planned act of revenge. this time we need to be ready for their sneaky tricks. i bet tom dunn is livid he can't play.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:03:09:46:13 by bardofavon.

Three tries on the left wing in 20 mins have to be seriously looked at in terms of defence.

A back 3 of Watson, Roko and Coka looks great in a very theoretical sort of way, but is currrently 3 divisions below Muir, TdG, McConnoghie.

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Optimist
A back 3 of Watson, Roko and Coka looks great in a very theoretical sort of way, but is currrently 3 divisions below Muir, TdG, McConnoghie.

Completely agree. I think on club form this season you would have tdg/rmc/horse with watson on bench.

Could argue that yest only spencer is a nailed on starter in our strongest form backline

A win is a win - we must never lose track of that particularly away from home.

"Hooper must go" I am personally now not sure to be honest. Do I think he was the wrong appointment - I am not sure. Do I think he was appointed at the wrong time in his evolution- 100% Yes but that is not his fault- that is Bruce and Tarquin.

I don't often find myself nodding in agreement with Steve Diamond but I did yesterday. He hit our problem nail right on the head.

For those who missed it - summed up he said Bath lack cohesion and direction. He also pointed out our basic skill level is poor and without sorting out these issues we would not be the team our team sheet suggests we should be, or as he said "Bath are a long way off being a top 4 or silverware winning team".

Hooper again sounded amateurish in his comments where he basically admitted to setting the team up wrongly. That is poor as are some of his other comments throughout the season. He has however, shown grit , determination and bottle in the most trying of times and he must be given credit for that. IMHO Hooper has been seriously let down by Bruce and Tarquin for not allowing/getting him an experienced head coach who would allow Hooper to glean and complete his learning whilst allowing Hats at least for this season to concentrate on his specialism.

IMHO it is too late to change direction once again and replace Hooper, however we need to sort out the issues Steve Diamond refers to, that was a very interesting view as to basically what other DoRs think of Bath rugby.

Personally we could do a lot worse if he was available in contacting Steve Diamond or someone similar and see if they were willing to take on a 1 year advisory role to assist Hooper/Hatley. Just my opinion.

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Ali1969
A win is a win - we must never lose track of that particularly away from home.
"Hooper must go" I am personally now not sure to be honest. Do I think he was the wrong appointment - I am not sure. Do I think he was appointed at the wrong time in his evolution- 100% Yes but that is not his fault- that is Bruce and Tarquin.

I don't often find myself nodding in agreement with Steve Diamond but I did yesterday. He hit our problem nail right on the head.

For those who missed it - summed up he said Bath lack cohesion and direction. He also pointed out our basic skill level is poor and without sorting out these issues we would not be the team our team sheet suggests we should be, or as he said "Bath are a long way off being a top 4 or silverware winning team".

Hooper again sounded amateurish in his comments where he basically admitted to setting the team up wrongly. That is poor as are some of his other comments throughout the season. He has however, shown grit , determination and bottle in the most trying of times and he must be given credit for that. IMHO Hooper has been seriously let down by Bruce and Tarquin for not allowing/getting him an experienced head coach who would allow Hooper to glean and complete his learning whilst allowing Hats at least for this season to concentrate on his specialism.

IMHO it is too late to change direction once again and replace Hooper, however we need to sort out the issues Steve Diamond refers to, that was a very interesting view as to basically what other DoRs think of Bath rugby.

Personally we could do a lot worse if he was available in contacting Steve Diamond or someone similar and see if they were willing to take on a 1 year advisory role to assist Hooper/Hatley. Just my opinion.

Good post! This is what I am talking BO when asking for some suggestions/solutions to move on from Hooper out! Hooper out! Hooper out! ad nauseum.

Completely agreed with diamond that our basic skills are way off and we aren't the sum of our parts (which is top 4 challengers, champions cup club).

I am in the 'hoops has been one experienced coach light' camp all along.

I am happy to give him and hats another season with williams in situ. Will be their squad and their coaching team so no excuses at all.

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charlieboa
Completely agreed with diamond that our basic skills are way off and we aren't the sum of our parts (which is top 4 challengers, champions cup club).
I am in the 'hoops has been one experienced coach light' camp all along.

I am happy to give him and hats another season with williams in situ. Will be their squad and their coaching team so no excuses at all.

Just think one other coach would make it, perhaps thats David Williams?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Agree with a lot of what's said in last few posts. Diamond could be just what we need in that capacity but pretty sure SD doesn't do 'advisory' even now, when it seems he doesn't want the constant pressure and responsibility of being a HC. He doesn't strike me as a man who'd be offering advice on the wings. I'm reasonably content with signs of recent progress whilst fully accepting we should be better than we are. At least the style of rugby and potential of youngsters have given me some reasons to be cheerful, to use Clarkey's phrase. I fully agree that if we're still making the same errors and showing the same lack of leadership this time next year I will lose the faith I still have in the current set-up.

I think it will click soon. I am really impressed with all of the youngsters. Generally I think the forwards have been sorted out. Scrum, lineout, restarts, pick and go generally good. Defense is aggressive and improved in recent weeks from a poor base. Attack is starting to improve as well and cipriani will make a massive difference to that. Yesterday wasn't great but we won with a very makeshift backline. We are way off Bristol, Exeter and Harlequins level at the moment, but everyone else in the premiership is beatable. We need to improve to get to the level of those 3 but I think we are getting there and building the basics

Not that he particularly needs defending, but bo has never been 'Hooper out' he's been 'there is a root and branch problem throughout Bath Rugby'. Ob, however...

If we want 'coach who has never won anything', then sure, Steve Diamond would be great for that.

Not that he particularly needs defending either(!) but I'd say SD has done pretty well at Sale given that until recently they weren't the richest club. He's rugby's equivalent of Sam Allardyce- decent record with limited resources and on the few occasions he's had a talented squad he's got them playing some good stuff. Also true to say that unless you're Rob Baxter or Mark McCall you're unlikely to have too many winners' medals in your cabinet and Sarries did pretty well under SD in his 2 seasons there. Not saying he's my favourite coach or the most fashionable (Again, like Big Sam) but I think he's an over-achiever and admire him for that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:03:17:05:13 by TomReagan.

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hasta
If we want 'coach who has never won anything', then sure, Steve Diamond would be great for that.

Harsh, he won the Premiership Cup last season.... Although the rumours about the post match celebrations perhaps got more column inches.

Like I said, he's won nothing. Sale have been spending up to the salary cap for the last few seasons and he couldn't make top 4. He's bolshy, he doesn't lack for personality. But why exchange for an expense old guy who has always failed?

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hasta
Like I said, he's won nothing. Sale have been spending up to the salary cap for the last few seasons and he couldn't make top 4. He's bolshy, he doesn't lack for personality. But why exchange for an expense old guy who has always failed?

Think he was a bit unlucky not to make top 4 last season!

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TomReagan

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hasta
Like I said, he's won nothing. Sale have been spending up to the salary cap for the last few seasons and he couldn't make top 4. He's bolshy, he doesn't lack for personality. But why exchange for an expense old guy who has always failed?

Think he was a bit unlucky not to make top 4 last season!

Fair observation there Tom

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ilovebathtime
I think it will click soon. Attack is starting to improve as well

I don’t agree that it has. With the individuals we have we are bound to occasionally concoct the odd score & they may look good but that doesn’t mean that our back line is clicking. A lot of the time we are going nowhere, there is a lack of cohesion, we knock on, lose it in contact, fail to spot opportunities & make errors. Most teams look better than us in all these respects & we only beat those teams through our forwards. I am hoping that Williams will address these issues & make a difference. I hope so as we do have a great deal of talent in our ranks.

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TomReagan

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hasta
Like I said, he's won nothing. Sale have been spending up to the salary cap for the last few seasons and he couldn't make top 4. He's bolshy, he doesn't lack for personality. But why exchange for an expense old guy who has always failed?

Think he was a bit unlucky not to make top 4 last season!

Shouldn't have lost to, who was it, oh yeah, Bath at home then. And if we had scored one more point against Sarries it wouldn't have mattered either.

Might as well observe that if Sarries had scored one more point... We'll have to beg to differ. I'm not even saying I want any changes to the current set up as I'm hoping this guy Williams might bring about improvement, but I rate Diamond. You don't; no worries.

Diamond's comments are spot on, no cohesion (that much has been obvious for years), no direction and poor basic skills (ditto). Really bizarre how these fundamental issues haven't ben fixed in such a long time. No wonder we never win anything.

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Long Term
Good post! This is what I am talking BO when asking for some suggestions/solutions to move on from Hooper out! Hooper out! Hooper out! ad nauseum.

Look through every post this entire season to date, I've never once said Hooper out.

Well done.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:04:02:06:07 by ballsout.

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ballsout
Diamond's comments are spot on, no cohesion (that much has been obvious for years), no direction and poor basic skills (ditto). Really bizarre how these fundamental issues haven't ben fixed in such a long time. No wonder we never win anything.

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Long Term
Good post! This is what I am talking BO when asking for some suggestions/solutions to move on from Hooper out! Hooper out! Hooper out! ad nauseum.

Look through every post this entire season to date, I've never once said Hooper out.


Well done.

Fair enough, what do you suggest needs to be done to improve the dire situation you see at Bath Rugby?

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hasta

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Keynsham BBW
Um...no one knows whether/where today's match is watchable? Is there any equivalent of Premiership Rugby TV's full match videos?

It's on BT Sport.

I’ve been checking non stop on BTS since the game finished and I’m damned if I can find it. All the Big Cup replays and highlights are on there. Thanks to kids I couldn’t watch it live, so I was planning on watching it on catch up live but in my search I’ve seen the score and read up on how bang average we were, so maybe its a blessing.

BT Sport 3HD Rawce, if you can get that on catch ip.

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Nope. It’s probably because I’m in the app, not the BT or Sky box.

Try this for highlights

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Long Term

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ballsout
Diamond's comments are spot on, no cohesion (that much has been obvious for years), no direction and poor basic skills (ditto). Really bizarre how these fundamental issues haven't ben fixed in such a long time. No wonder we never win anything.

Quote:

Long Term
Good post! This is what I am talking BO when asking for some suggestions/solutions to move on from Hooper out! Hooper out! Hooper out! ad nauseum.

Look through every post this entire season to date, I've never once said Hooper out.


Well done.

Fair enough, what do you suggest needs to be done to improve the dire situation you see at Bath Rugby?

The club are in a tough situation because the issues runs so deep, there's no quick fix. People saying Dave Williams arriving, or a new 10 like Tian Schoeman arriving, or getting our internationals back, or a new stadium helping, all completely miss the point. It's one Steve Diamond brought up the other day: Bath have no identity, no direction, no foundation. Combine that with poor basic skills and poor coaching and it's no wonder we never win anything.

The importance of 'culture' is often brushed under the carpet here but that's more important than anything else at a rugby club, and trumps simply filling in a XV with star players like Bath often do. The latter can get you wins on occasion, sometimes even big ones, but it's a foundation of sand.

There's a reason why Sarries, Exeter and now Bristol have seen success in recent times. Team spirit and an identity. You even look at a side like London Irish who are flying atm, they have it in spades too and it's why a team with few big names will likely run rings around us next weekend.

People ridicule me when I talk about all clubs except Bath having a celebration song or thing they do after a win, but it points to that wider issue. Same with what you see at most clubs now, subs forming a tunnel to cheer the starters on as they run out onto the pitch. Bath never do that. I'm sure people will roll their eyes at that, but clubs that do it points to a team spirit and a happy camp who know what they're about.

What's the solution at Bath? Like I said I think they're in a tough situation because what really needs to happen would cause short term pain like relegation, so the safer option of just muddling along, winning some, losing when it matters most, and never winning anything, will probably continue.

Much as I like Hooper, he's hopelessly out of his depth and it's an utter disgrace he was thrown into a position he wasn't ready for. Tarquin needs to take some serious accountability for this. Same with Craig.

You asked what I think needs to happen? Ok, now I will say it, a new coaching set up needs to be put in place, not a patchwork job, one man picking his whole team, and a lot of the big name players need to be moved on. Instil someone who can actually bring the best out of homegrown talent that Bath have in abundance, or we'll just get a series of Zach Mercers not reaching their potential and petering out. Someone who has us playing smart rugby. Not the current style of head down rugby, minus the ball carriers to carry it out, as one of many examples.

It's not just rugby matters, the comms department is incredibly cold and business-like. Full of buzz-wordy marketing cliches, no personality and nothing to engage supporters. It's embarrassing seeing how cold it all comes across on social media. Like a boardroom full of execs deciding exactly how to talk to fans.

I genuinely think relegation would do this club the world of good in the long run, if the necessary changes were made to react to it. Obviously that can't happen this season, but short term pain, long term gains.

I had thought that winning the Challenge Cup might be a springboard for this club, but our impotent performance against Zebre has made me give up on winning it, frankly.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:04:15:40:21 by ballsout.

thanks for your reply BO, I agree with you the culture/spirit of a club is possibly the key element to the success of a club and I think Hooper has identified that and is trying to build it through the development and introduction to the team of youngsters who will have only known his coaching team. Obviously this is a slow process towards which winning is vital and a accelerant so wins like that at Zebre are valuable despite the performance. The modern professional game doesn't produce or want the on field leaders and tacticians that were the key to Bath's glory years when Jack Rowell had little input in how a game developed and progressed on the day so tactics and reactions to changing situations can be lacking at times. We do need the 'stars' however to bring in the crowds and bring X factor in the big games, Hooper seems to have them on board so far, talk of a supposed collapse of morale seem to be unfounded. I don't think you give enough credit to the improvement in basics such as restarts, scoring from five yards out, line outs and scrums, the building blocks to developing a successful side, developing the forwards was an initial target of the coaching team. A key factor to Hooper's role is as the bridge/ barrier between Bruce Craig and the coaching team, Hooper as 'Craigs man' is essential in this role. Craig is very hands on as is his right at 'his' club and I think there are very few experienced successful coaches who would wish to work under him. May be as someone who has watched Bath for over fifty years and enjoyed the glory amateur days I don't view myself as a paying customer who feels he therefore has the right to demand success( trophies), supporting the club is just part of my life that I enjoy at all times.

post deleted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:04:20:00:32 by FourSticks.

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ballsout

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Long Term

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ballsout
Diamond's comments are spot on, no cohesion (that much has been obvious for years), no direction and poor basic skills (ditto). Really bizarre how these fundamental issues haven't ben fixed in such a long time. No wonder we never win anything.

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Long Term
Good post! This is what I am talking BO when asking for some suggestions/solutions to move on from Hooper out! Hooper out! Hooper out! ad nauseum.

Look through every post this entire season to date, I've never once said Hooper out.


Well done.

Fair enough, what do you suggest needs to be done to improve the dire situation you see at Bath Rugby?

The club are in a tough situation because the issues runs so deep, there's no quick fix. People saying Dave Williams arriving, or a new 10 like Tian Schoeman arriving, or getting our internationals back, or a new stadium helping, all completely miss the point. It's one Steve Diamond brought up the other day: Bath have no identity, no direction, no foundation. Combine that with poor basic skills and poor coaching and it's no wonder we never win anything.

The importance of 'culture' is often brushed under the carpet here but that's more important than anything else at a rugby club, and trumps simply filling in a XV with star players like Bath often do. The latter can get you wins on occasion, sometimes even big ones, but it's a foundation of sand.

There's a reason why Sarries, Exeter and now Bristol have seen success in recent times. Team spirit and an identity. You even look at a side like London Irish who are flying atm, they have it in spades too and it's why a team with few big names will likely run rings around us next weekend.

People ridicule me when I talk about all clubs except Bath having a celebration song or thing they do after a win, but it points to that wider issue. Same with what you see at most clubs now, subs forming a tunnel to cheer the starters on as they run out onto the pitch. Bath never do that. I'm sure people will roll their eyes at that, but clubs that do it points to a team spirit and a happy camp who know what they're about.

What's the solution at Bath? Like I said I think they're in a tough situation because what really needs to happen would cause short term pain like relegation, so the safer option of just muddling along, winning some, losing when it matters most, and never winning anything, will probably continue.

Much as I like Hooper, he's hopelessly out of his depth and it's an utter disgrace he was thrown into a position he wasn't ready for. Tarquin needs to take some serious accountability for this. Same with Craig.

You asked what I think needs to happen? Ok, now I will say it, a new coaching set up needs to be put in place, not a patchwork job, one man picking his whole team, and a lot of the big name players need to be moved on. Instil someone who can actually bring the best out of homegrown talent that Bath have in abundance, or we'll just get a series of Zach Mercers not reaching their potential and petering out. Someone who has us playing smart rugby. Not the current style of head down rugby, minus the ball carriers to carry it out, as one of many examples.

It's not just rugby matters, the comms department is incredibly cold and business-like. Full of buzz-wordy marketing cliches, no personality and nothing to engage supporters. It's embarrassing seeing how cold it all comes across on social media. Like a boardroom full of execs deciding exactly how to talk to fans.

I genuinely think relegation would do this club the world of good in the long run, if the necessary changes were made to react to it. Obviously that can't happen this season, but short term pain, long term gains.

I had thought that winning the Challenge Cup might be a springboard for this club, but our impotent performance against Zebre has made me give up on winning it, frankly.

Good post and I agree with most of it. The problem is clear and clearly identified in the post but I think the club have decided to address it by slowly building up a new academy heavy playing roster and the team ethos that comes with that. I don't agree that importing wholesale a new coaching team is the answer but it's certainly an option. But I do think we are a head coach light and that's where I'd be focusing our search. And not on one of the usual suspects either. The playing if the game is changing in front of our eyes, probably for the better, and we are going to need new ideas to prosper. It's also clear that ring fencing is coming, one way or another, and so the perils of relegation will be lost. I'd be looking for a HC from 7s to try and replicate that philosophy in the 15s game. As we've pointed out before, rugby is becoming a game of evasion, so we need to learn to evade as well as collide.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Thanks for the highlights link CC

Fair enough BO - all good points for discussion.

The trouble with all this “changing the culture” & new broom stuff is what specific actions you take that have not been adopted & where you find the ideal group of coaches. All the other clubs have been trying to do the same & how many have succeeded on mare than a temporary basis? It seems to me that most have blown hot & cold & had their ups & downs. This year Quinn’s are a form team but will it continue? Exeter & Saracens, yes, and Bristol have managed to attract an amazing array of players & their coach has turned out to be inspiring, but has he always succeeded? I believe not. I would definitely agree that a title win would be amazing but should it occur it doesn’t necessarily mean a change of culture, nor would it automatically lead to a golden era. I’m not remotely sure that trying to make the wholesale changes listed by ballsout would bring about the type of permanent success he seeks, in fact I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t!

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Bath Hammer
The trouble with all this “changing the culture” & new broom stuff is what specific actions you take that have not been adopted & where you find the ideal group of coaches. All the other clubs have been trying to do the same & how many have succeeded on mare than a temporary basis? It seems to me that most have blown hot & cold & had their ups & downs. This year Quinn’s are a form team but will it continue? Exeter & Saracens, yes, and Bristol have managed to attract an amazing array of players & their coach has turned out to be inspiring, but has he always succeeded? I believe not. I would definitely agree that a title win would be amazing but should it occur it doesn’t necessarily mean a change of culture, nor would it automatically lead to a golden era. I’m not remotely sure that trying to make the wholesale changes listed by ballsout would bring about the type of permanent success he seeks, in fact I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t!

Good points BH, we have seen a few clubs having purple patches that fail to flourish into the real thing, including Bath for a while.
Despite Bristol being the team at the top I suspect they won't win the Prem, we'll see though!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Exeter did give a fairly brutal reminder of just how good they are, and Bristol did run into something of a brick wall this weekend.

So here's the problem with your logic, Ballsout you talk about needing to be prepared to accept short term pain for long term gain and how even relegation might be a price worth paying. BUT you aren't prepared to accept the short term pain of waiting for Hooper and his coaching team to develop. In your humble opinion he's not up to it now, so you want him out now. Can you spot the contradiction?

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Trawling
So here's the problem with your logic, Ballsout you talk about needing to be prepared to accept short term pain for long term gain and how even relegation might be a price worth paying. BUT you aren't prepared to accept the short term pain of waiting for Hooper and his coaching team to develop. In your humble opinion he's not up to it now, so you want him out now. Can you spot the contradiction?

Who' s to know whether Bruce Craig might pull out if we were relegated resulting in a downward spiral never to return. Rugby's finances are incredibly fragile and past history doesn't really count in the professional era. I think we have to be realistic and grateful to have BC's financial backing which means it's his club, he makes the decisions and we supporters have very little influence in that.

Thank you BO for the thoughtful post. In my view starting again or as you called it a reboot is not the way to go. We have tried the imported coach route as well as using home grown talent in the early days (Robbo, Hallers, JC1, Foley even JR returned briefly). Imports were JC2, BA (briefly), Smee, SIM, Gold, Ford, Blackadder. Have I missed anyone, if so I must have blinked!

Yes we are some coaches light, defence and skills come to mind, and it seems that attack is being addressed. The fact that we have Hoops as a DoR means we have a person that has BBW at heart, having been introduced to the club as a lad from Devon. Apart from this major asset, he has an analytical brain, is well liked by players and management, and is well respected amongst his peers.

He now has the job to rebuild the culture and team spirit of our past and return the club to success. I believe he can do it and will put in the building blocks to do so but it won’t be overnight! We need stability as 23 years with only two major trophies with all the above talent of coaches is not a great return.

london irish and bristol have some special culture? the culture of the wallet maybe. both these teams are light on home grown players. we saw how sale moved up the table after stuffing their teams with saffas. now it is tigers who have brought in a load of southern hemp journeymen which has given them a lift up the table. i don't agree with any of it. there should be a limit regarding the number of non EQP you can include in a weekend playing squad. if they don't enforce it english rugby is going to slowly fall apart.
bath's choice of making a team from our own academy is the right one and something we can feel pride about. there was an interesting interview with one of the ex beechen boys the other day. was it miles reid? he said there was a really special feeling in the academy with so many boys moving through the pathway together. this is the key to culture in my opinion.
regarding the coaching team, well it leaves much to be desired. there is not enough experience there and as director hooper is making it up as he goes along. with no qualifications or experience he should have never been given the job. macdonald has a lot to answer for.
hatley is doing his best but even the head coach role is something new to him. he has his hands full and certainly doesnt need the defence portfolio as well. does he even have the experience to do the job or is this another example of mcdonald's scrimping holing the club below the waterline?
since TB left our defensive record has collapsed. we have the worst defence in the league by a long way, yielding an average 27 points a game. we have scored the same points as Sale, who are fourth, but we have conceded nearly twice as many points as them. how are you going to make the top 4 doing that, even with danny cirpiani? yes we are scoring more tries since TB left (many of them of the execrable exeter chiefs 'flopover' variety; dreadful to watch) but like the man said- no point locking the windows if you leave the door open.
it is no coincidence that bath's appalling defensive record coincides with us being the only club in the league with no dedicated defence coach. a quality defence coach is the single most important appointment the club needs to make. i would add to that a skills coach but apparently the new atttack coach (williams?) is also tasked with that so let's wait and see.
another problem we have is the division of labour between hatley and hooper. both of them have said this season that they are in charge of the team. this is not a good look. neither is hooper's grabbing of the media spotlight on match days whilst hats is nowhere to be seen. the head coach's job is the nitty gritty of preparing the team from week to week, selecting the tactics and choosing the team. he should be giving the media briefings pre and post game and he should be the guy answering the questions. instead hooper does it. how can that be?
if the head coach's job is the rugby micro, the DoR's job is the macro. He liaises with the other clubs, arranges the fixtures, puts together the academy, makes the appointments, decides on the future course the club intends to take, the style of play, the long term plan.
if hatley and hooper cant agree on the parameters of each other's job, then something is very wrong.

culture comes from winning. we don't have a culture because we don't win enough. the reason for this is that our coaching is@#$%&and our DoR is not credible. we have the players but we are not using them properly.

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bardofavon
london irish and bristol have some special culture? the culture of the wallet maybe.

No, probably the best culture in the league in Bears' case. Up there with Sarries in their heyday. Players love playing for that club.

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Optimist
Exeter did give a fairly brutal reminder of just how good they are, and Bristol did run into something of a brick wall this weekend.

Bristol didn't actually play badly though, for any of the match, they were just beaten by the better team on the day. It reminded me of Sarries constantly losing to French opposition a decade ago, as a precursor to them then winning everything. Same with Exeter failing to do much in the Champions Cup for a couple of years, before dominating.

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Trawling
So here's the problem with your logic, Ballsout you talk about needing to be prepared to accept short term pain for long term gain and how even relegation might be a price worth paying. BUT you aren't prepared to accept the short term pain of waiting for Hooper and his coaching team to develop. In your humble opinion he's not up to it now, so you want him out now. Can you spot the contradiction?

It's pointless waiting for something that will never happen. Short term pain for long term gain only works if you're on the right path. A cobbled together coaching team run by a man out of his depth who's only known failure over the years with Bath, isn't that. We've made improvements, our lineout drive has gone from comically inept to our primary (only?) main weapon, but those are undone with woeful performances like against Zebre. The foundation simply isn't there to improve in any meaningful way.

The emphasis on home grown players is commendable, and a great move, but it's all for nothing if we don't have the environment to have them reach their potential.

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bardofavon
culture comes from winning. we don't have a culture because we don't win enough.

The Bears started theirs well before they were winning, same with Sarries and Exeter. In fact Bristol's started the instant Lam arrived, helped along by their club rebrand, which I also think would benefit Bath. Start from scratch, build something that players can get excited about, and please for the love of god have the Comms team talk to us fans like a rugby club, not a soulless corporate PR machine.

'The Bears started theirs well before they were winning'

That's not strictly true is it. They were 'winning' regularly enough in the Championship, and they built on that. That could be an argument that it would do Bath good to get relegated. But, I don't really believe that - not unless we're willing to put off challenging for the Prem/HC for another 6-7 years.

I completely accept most of what you say - but I actually think that Hooper is trying to do pretty much exactly what you describe. The fact that Hooper is 'a man out of his depth who's only known failure over the years with Bath' might be the very reason why he is so determined to methodically build the club from foundations upwards. He isn't the one who has signed up the big star names; he's the one who has reinvented the pathway from basically Danny Grewcock ringing up John Mallett, to something that produced 8 players across the England U20s & Bath senior squads on a single day a couple of weeks ago.

We won't know whether Hooper is or can be a success for another 2 years. Do we have the patience and the nerve to wait that out? I didn't in January. I do today. And I probably won't if we get dumped out of the Cup by LI next Friday.

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CoochieCoo

He now has the job to rebuild the culture and team spirit of our past and return the club to success. I believe he can do it and will put in the building blocks to do so but it won’t be overnight! We need stability as 23 years with only two major trophies with all the above talent of coaches is not a great return.

That is a specific remit given to him by Bruce and Tarquin - to build an enduring culture from within.

WIP yes, but culture is not being ignored.

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

It's very easy to say "Hey Hoops, build a squad culture that players love playing for", like Lam or Baxter both managed pretty much instantly, another thing altogether for him to actually do it.

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ballsout
It's very easy to say "Hey Hoops, build a squad culture that players love playing for", like Lam or Baxter both managed pretty much instantly, another thing altogether for him to actually do it.

BO, there is every indication that the culture at the club is improving isn't there?
Doesn't that "culture that players love playing for" come with the success? Is there a club with that culture thats failing? Not Bath I mean.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

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shipwrecked
BO, there is every indication that the culture at the club is improving isn't there?

Is there? Was that on show against Zebre?

I think people are misunderstanding what I mean by culture.

I'm not talking about getting good results. I mean things like having an identity and behaviour. Things like the whole wolfpack thing or going to Oktoberfest stuff at Sarries, Exeter celebrating every try as if they won the world cup a few years back or Bears singing Blackbird ON THE REC PITCH after a match, their new brand, and how jovial and relatable their PR is. Hell even having a changing room sing song would be a start. Again people will roll their eyes at the above, but it is important. Maybe ask Lahiff or Atwood how much fun they're having at Bears.

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ballsout

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shipwrecked
BO, there is every indication that the culture at the club is improving isn't there?

Is there? Was that on show against Zebre?

I think people are misunderstanding what I mean by culture.

I'm not talking about getting good results.

See this is where I don't get it, you are using a game where the performance was rubbish then saying its not about results.

Why not look at a series of games where the players showed real spirit and even mentioned team spirit in the post match videos released from the club. Incidentally I think club communication and quality of output has improved greatly, you don't it seems.

What I'm saying is its getting better, I also think results make a massive difference to moral.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

...and morale as well?

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Mike the Taxi
...and morale as well?

I was using Welsh regional spelling Mike! (morâl)


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

I'm not entirely sure why you want to quote Saracens when you're talking about 'culture'. Their 'culture' has cost them about £10m, relegation, the credibility of their trophies and success on the pitch. And the impact is still rippling - Eddie's decision to use the 6Ns as a means for the Sarries players not to miss out on the Lions tour could yet rebound badly on him and them; several players had to leave, Sanderson has gone and I wonder if Earl and Malins will actually want to go back.

Yes - this may be a bit of a distraction in terms of trying to unpick Bath's problems - but it's a fine line between cult and culture.

You forgot the Circumflex (originally)!

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Mike the Taxi
You forgot the Circumflex (originally)!

No Mike I forgot the 'e' originally, I didn't think you'd fall for it for one minute!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

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bardofavon
london irish and bristol have some special culture? the culture of the wallet maybe. both these teams are light on home grown players.

Irish had 8 home grown academy players in the squad that beat Bath two weeks ago, plus the several other players that have been with Irish through the yo yo seasons in the Championship. Bath also had a fair chunk of Irish academy developed players so your statement that we have bought our recent found form is a bit off the mark.

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Optimist
I'm not entirely sure why you want to quote Saracens when you're talking about 'culture'. Their 'culture' has cost them about £10m, relegation, the credibility of their trophies and success on the pitch. And the impact is still rippling - Eddie's decision to use the 6Ns as a means for the Sarries players not to miss out on the Lions tour could yet rebound badly on him and them; several players had to leave, Sanderson has gone and I wonder if Earl and Malins will actually want to go back.
Yes - this may be a bit of a distraction in terms of trying to unpick Bath's problems - but it's a fine line between cult and culture.

I don't think you can confuse Nigel Wray’s salary cap dodging with a squad culture. If everything remained the same, same team bonding trips abroad, same ‘us against them’ mentality, but remove 2 or 3 of their biggest star names, would they have won a million trophies? No, but they would have still won a few, and still been considered a successful club, because the foundation would have been there.

Whatever you want to call the Sarries way (minus Wray's antics) a cult or a culture, it was something, and it worked. "Something special happening at Sarries" might have annoyed everyone else, but that kind of thing did it for them. It was an identity.

I'm not trying to pin all of Bath's issues on this one deficiency, but it's a big one. I was starting to wonder if maybe I was overstating the probleem, but Diamond pretty much said it word for word at the weekend, so there has to be something to it.

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shipwrecked
Incidentally I think club communication and quality of output has improved greatly, you don't it seems.

It absolutely has in the sense that they’re actually putting out content now which is good. But look a little deeper than that. I’m talking about the language used. Read any tweet or match report, and all you’ll see is corporate PR speak full of buzz-wordy cliches about ‘pathways’ and 'high performance'. Their social media is sanitised, safe and totally lacking any sort of personality. It's a small thing, but it's starting to annoy. Go have a read of Cokanasiga's report on the Offy about injury a year and a bit ago as the worst example. Then compare to most other clubs.

I do think you are talking at cross purposes BO, you mention culture but then blame skills. A sing song on the pitch doesn't work if you have lost. Why are Bristol's players happy? Because they are generally winning.

I think your points about skills and coaching, ball retention etc. are clear and objective. Trying to blame culture is a lot more subjective, woolly and hard to pin down.

I would go with comments above about being at least one coach light. Stick to the facts, the analysis, the skills coaching, the running into gaps, the offloads, the enjoyable style of rugby, rewarding performance, integrating youth, no prima donnas. That for me is the way to look over a re brand, new badge, club song etc.

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ballsout
I'm not talking about getting good results. I mean things like having an identity and behaviour.

Having so many Bath players coming through who are home grown and have played together since U12s has to help that IMO. For me it was no coincidence that the problems in the decade (and more) before 2020 at Bath coincided with an eye off the academy. In terms of a club culture this is absolutely typified throughout the land at local clubs, tens of thousands of players and helpers who would do anything for each other. Sarries had the group who came through and so have Exeter more recently, add a few old experience heads and a couple of those at the top of the game and that seems like a good balance. Not sure Bath are that far away from this.

In terms of skills and exciting play (i.e. playing 'culture' as Lam would and has emphasised over and over) Bristol had the opportunity to learn their all-court game in the Championship and made the most of it. Did what they wanted without repercussions - possibly because they had players with the wages of entire Champ teams - then when comfortable with it were in the Prem. There were some horrible errors in that first season (Madigan in particular) but they seem to have the balance spot on now. Those couple of years of free flowing rugby freedom are what out guys have never had so I'm not surprised that when they are told to go out and chuck it about they look very raw. Again, having the young guys in where they will have been coached according to C.A.R.D.S should mean that they are more comfortable with this style (like some of the naturally talented players of the 70's and 80s before the regimented systems came in for youth coaching).

Whether or not Hoops is 'The Man' (and I also haven't made my mind up yet) I think that the future of Bath Rugby is rosy...the one elephant in the room being that it also seems to be the same model as all the other Prem clubs!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

BO claims our subs don't make a tunnel for the starters when they come out the changing room - that's not true.
Also curious how he is so sure the players don't have a post match sing song or other celebration as I guess he's not part of the match day set up. It doesn't have to be in the face of the opposition or their fans.

However:
We certainly are a defence & skills coach short.
Too many players are also prone to poor decisions on the pitch at key times, and we do suffer from doubling or tripling up on penalties conceeded, but I rthink that is a confidence thing, a confidence that comes with winning consistently.

The squad have though showed a lot of spirit and togetherness over the last year, and that seems to be being ignored.

So some very valid points, but also some that just don't stack up.

BO

This doesn't sound like a player who is unhappy with the club culture. And of course to some extent it is commsspeak but Obano has got his name to it including this

“I’ve grown to love it here,” Obano said ahead of his 100th Bath game.

“It’s become part of my identity, part of my person over the years. That’s what the club has done for me. I’m proud because it’s quite a big club; I’m proud to play for Bath Rugby.
“I always feel grateful to have the opportunity to play rugby for a living. I just try and take every opportunity given to me whether that be game day or training. I try to put the most into it to get the most out of it."

That sounds to me like a player who understands and appreciates the culture that Hooper is building

It may not work and may not lead to silverware of course. Every Prem DoR is striving to win a max of 2 possibly 3 big trophies in any one year but when you read this kind of stuff surely Hooper is entitled to a season or two in top job to prove his worth?

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ballsout
Exeter celebrating every try as if they won the world cup a few years back. Again people will roll their eyes at the above, but it is important.

Must be me getting old, because I could have sworn there was someone on ‘ERE repeatedly slagging Exeter off for this. Anyone remember who it was?