TOOTH AND CLAW BATH v LEICESTER TIGERS

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:21:15:10:53 by P G Tips.

Excellent summary as usual PGT, certainly a tough one to call and guess a few cards might come into play !!

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Not sure we will see Ruari his arm was in a sling at the end of the last game. Either slot Muir in move watson to the wing and bring in TDG at fullback..

Muir already in my proposed in my XV TGK- but agree, Watson to wing, TdG to fullback, Matavesi or Ojomoh onto bench.

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:14:16:27:25 by P G Tips.

Hanro Liebenberg to a knock to the head last week and was subbed off, so may be missing, Cyle Brink may be available or more likely Tommy Reffel at 7.

[www.somersetlive.co.uk]

Happy to see that Josh Matavesi has been out with a calf and is therefore has not been related to his noggin.

Also very welcome to get progress reports from Hoops, much better than the previous radio silence IMO particularly when it comes to things like nasty looking head knocks.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

It's a headache for PG though as he'll have to re-jig his team again!

Gray to the bench?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:14:19:09:58 by shipwrecked.

Quote:

shipwrecked
It's a headache for PG though as he'll have to re-jig his team again!
Gray to the bench?

Done. No headache compared to the concussions and HIA protocols players suffer these days.

* See new thread -"Past Concussion Attitudes."

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Bit surprised bailey is being considered.

One hell of a hit he took.

Guess it's a 9 day turnaround but guys failing hia have tended to get 2-3 weeks off this season. Suppose that's mainly been players who have had a few head knocks like bayliss, underhill etc

Think the forward battle as usual will go a long way to deciding this one. Stuart needs to dominate Genge unlike up at Welford Rd where the Tigers scrum was pretty dominate albeit with some questionable binding and angles - We do need to be dominate and aggressive.

Hopefully we will have learnt many lessons and will nullify Ford's spiral bombs - if we gain dominance up front we all know that Ford's Achilles heal is playing under pressure or on the back foot.

Overall and sadly true much of this game will depend on who is officiating - a weak referee it will be Tigers all day long - A strong referee and I am sure we will triumph albeit both sides may see a few cards brandished.

I am sure we can win this one and it will be nice and dry hopefully.

Agree, Ali, the ref is all important. Pleased to see it's Luke Pearce, who is one of the very best and should also allow competition at the breakdown.

If I remember correctly, Barnes reffed the game at WR and we couldn't slow them down as he tends to reward the attacking team at the ruck. Hence, Bayliss and Redpath couldn't slow their ball or turn it over. Hopefully on Sunday, with Underhill and Redpath in the side and Pearce on the whistle, we should get joy on the floor. Their pack is growing in stature and (I might be wrong) but I don't think they're too strong in the jackal, as they pick a big back 5 of the pack who try to dominate the tight (maul, scrum) rather than the loose (breakdown, wide channels).

Question is, do we try to match them and pick a team and play a strategy that goes toe to toe with them in the tight, or do we play wider, hoping to run them around and win the breakdown? I always think you should play to your strength rather than theirs, so hopefully Underhill is fit and Mercer and Faletau can roam the wide channels and we play with width. Of course, scrum and maul all important, so hopefully we get parity at least, but I'd love to see us have a go wide much like we did against Exeter at home (for a half).

Should be fascinating and playing against Ford always makes me nervous! But Bath by 6.

The forwards battle will be epic, two big packs there.

I don't really want Mercer and Faletau to roam the wide channels tbh, we won't get any ball to send their way. All of the back row will need to be doing the heavy stuff and getting some joy at the rucks / taking down their huge runners.

TDG at the back as a safe pair of hands under the Ford high balls would be a bonus too, if he is ready (which Hoops seems to think he won't be). Watson at 15 will need to do better when fielding them than he did last time in the wind, but the weather should be much better so that will help.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Seems to me, Matt, that that's how we setup in attack, with the backrow splitting the field. If you watch what we did well against Saints (last 30) and Exe (first 30) a lot of our momentum is from the 6 (Staddon, Faletau) on the left touchline and the 8 (Mercer) on the right touchline getting the ball with space to run themselves (footwork from Faletau v Exe) or manipulate defenders to pass/offload (Mercer v Saints in tandem with McCon/Muir).

I agree, it's not necessarily my idea of the right thing to do but it's clearly the attacking system. And for this game, as said, against Leicester's big, slow-er pack, I think it's the right approach as we need to match them up front but, more importantly, stretch them out wide.

Referee: Luke Pearce (111th Premiership game). Assistant Referees: Simon Harding & Jonathan Healy. TMO: Rowan Kitt. Citing Officer: Duncan Bell.‌

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Seems to me, Matt, that that's how we setup in attack, with the backrow splitting the field. If you watch what we did well against Saints (last 30) and Exe (first 30) a lot of our momentum is from the 6 (Staddon, Faletau) on the left touchline and the 8 (Mercer) on the right touchline getting the ball with space to run themselves (footwork from Faletau v Exe) or manipulate defenders to pass/offload (Mercer v Saints in tandem with McCon/Muir).
I agree, it's not necessarily my idea of the right thing to do but it's clearly the attacking system. And for this game, as said, against Leicester's big, slow-er pack, I think it's the right approach as we need to match them up front but, more importantly, stretch them out wide.

I think that you hit the nail on the head there Dr Bath in terms of the examples. Whilst it worked against Saints with their comparative lack of oomph in the pack and lack of turnover specialists, we came up seriously short against Exeter as we just get bullied in the pack if we are playing with 7 (or 6) forwards and extra backs in the NZ model. TF and ZM seemed to work well a bit closer in against L.I. when they were able to do a bit of both (or as it seemed to me).

The question for me therefore is whether the Tigers pack is more Saints or Exe (or somewhere in between)?

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Yes, indeed, who are we playing is important and clearly last week v Irish we thought we had them up front so we went hard with our pick and drive and maul game. So, you're right, I think we will adapt our tactics depending on who we're playing.

But I also think that an attack should just worry about who you are and how you want to attack and, clearly, we're trying to develop a wide game that involves big runners in wide channels. So against a big pack like Leicester do you move away from Plan A to counter them OR stick to the game plan that you know can be devastating, especially against more lightweight teams.

Difficult one. The answer is likely somewhere in the middle. Both styles should be deployed throughout an 80 minutes game, and you need the ability to change the strategy from quarter to quarter. If it's tight, stick TF and Zach one out from 9 and have them run tight. If we feel we've got them out wide, stack the wide channels and go coast to coast. The ability to play a number of ways separates good teams from great, I'd say, and I wouldn't say we've been especially good or great in recent seasons but it would be great if we could come up with a couple of ways of playing.

With all this in mind, it'll be fascinating to see how we line up on Sunday, starting with selection. Argument to start a guy like Ellis at 6 and a winger like JCok if we're going to keep it tight-er.

You could certainly put together a highlights package of Bath playing just about every style in the book over the last 6 months. Now we just need more consistency of execution; and better game management (ie flexing from one style to another at the right moment with and between games).

Team Up. Underhill & Muir return.


Bath Rugby side to face Leicester Tigers

15. Anthony Watson, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Will Muir, 10. Josh Matavesi, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Beno Obano, 2. Jack Walker, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Taulupe Faletau, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer

Replacements

16. Jacques du Toit, 17. Juan Schoeman, 18. Henry Thomas, 19. Mike Williams, 20. Miles Reid, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Orlando Bailey, 23. Alex Gray

PG

Josh M against George Ford (eek!). Otherwise team as expected I think. COYB!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

P G Tips
Team Up. Underhill & Muir return.

Bath Rugby side to face Leicester Tigers

15. Anthony Watson, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Will Muir, 10. Josh Matavesi, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Beno Obano, 2. Jack Walker, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Taulupe Faletau, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer

Replacements

16. Jacques du Toit, 17. Juan Schoeman, 18. Henry Thomas, 19. Mike Williams, 20. Miles Reid, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Orlando Bailey, 23. Alex Gray

PG

Matavesi at 10, not too sure about that but perhaps there is no choice!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

I see a very real possibility of this game being determined by yellow and red cards...

Leicester Tigers XV
[club appearances in brackets]

15 Freddie Steward [27]
14 Harry Potter [12]
13 Matías Moroni [11]
12 Dan Kelly [13]
11 Kini Murimurivalu [14]

10 George Ford [100]
9 Ben Youngs [255]

1 Ellis Genge [81]
2 Tom Youngs (c) [208]
3 Dan Cole [256]
4 Harry Wells [116]
5 Calum Green [54]
6 George Martin [10]
7 Tommy Reffell [42]
8 Jasper Wiese [11]

Replacements

16 Charlie Clare [26]
17 Luan de Bruin [12]
18 Joe Heyes [63]
19 Tomás Lavanini [31]
20 Luke Wallace [14]
21 Richard Wigglesworth [10]
22 Johnny McPhillips [17]
23 Matt Scott [18]

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:16:12:26:13 by BathMatt53.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

P G Tips
Team Up. Underhill & Muir return.

Bath Rugby side to face Leicester Tigers

15. Anthony Watson, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Will Muir, 10. Josh Matavesi, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Beno Obano, 2. Jack Walker, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Taulupe Faletau, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer

Replacements

16. Jacques du Toit, 17. Juan Schoeman, 18. Henry Thomas, 19. Mike Williams, 20. Miles Reid, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Orlando Bailey, 23. Alex Gray

PG

Matavesi at 10, not too sure about that but perhaps there is no choice!

Shipwrecked - There is an option - He is sat on the bench - feel sorry for the lad - he certainly has not let the side down over the past few weeks - would have thought he would have been given a chance against Ford and then use big Josh M from the bench.

Agree with Malco - given the sides and history coupled with new directives can see plenty of cards being brandished - will be shocked if both sides finish with 15 on the field.

Disappointed that they've preferred Matavesi over Bailey - but I guess that means all kicking and exiting going through Spencer, which is basically, no change.

Quite nice opportunities for Redpath to step up to first receiver though.

As ever .... that looks a strong side (on paper).

Would be nice if we could somehow work out a way for Cokanasiga to touch the ball at some point ..... maybe one of him or Matavesi can have a little run down George's channel?

Quote:

BathMatt53
Josh M against George Ford (eek!). Otherwise team as expected I think. COYB!

Would rather Cam at 10, Josh at 12.

PG

Quote:

P G Tips

Quote:

BathMatt53
Josh M against George Ford (eek!). Otherwise team as expected I think. COYB!

Would rather Cam at 10, Josh at 12.

PG

I'm quite sure we will see them mix it up during the game. Matavesi will play first receiver when the call is made to truck it up on the gain line and offload late in contact. They will swap when we want to kick tactically or move the ball wide.

2 strong sides, we are not quite full strength, Liebenberg and Nadolo missing, but no complaints, Tigers are clearly going to have a go at this fixture. I would like to think our bench might just have the edge and I also think our 2 front rows might just swing it for us.

Quote:

tigerburnie
2 strong sides, we are not quite full strength, Liebenberg and Nadolo missing, but no complaints, Tigers are clearly going to have a go at this fixture. I would like to think our bench might just have the edge and I also think our 2 front rows might just swing it for us.

Dunn, McConnochie and Priestland are big misses for us but I guess you have to expect a few out at this stage of the season. Hoping for a good game.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

P G Tips

Quote:

BathMatt53
Josh M against George Ford (eek!). Otherwise team as expected I think. COYB!

Would rather Cam at 10, Josh at 12.

PG

Yes, I agree PG, but I'm not sure Spencer passes to him much anyway, with various options as first receiver, Zach, JJ, Muir etc. Plus he did get a sore head last week so an abundance of caution perhaps!

I know that is a disappointment for you PG given your rugby history but you're the icon every rugby player aspires too after all.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Given the quality of Wiese, its no surprise to me that they've opted for Matavesi. Don't want a repeat of last week.

Quote:

by
Given the quality of Wiese, its no surprise to me that they've opted for Matavesi. Don't want a repeat of last week.

Hopefully that it a case of 'lesson learned' or otherwise it will be a very short career.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Wiese is a quality player no doubt - however if our front 5 get any form of parity or dominance then Wiese will find it hard to generate the power and speed to get outside our backrow.

Stuart is a quality operator but he needs to dominate players like Genge who is awkward and annoying - Physically Stuart is a monster of player as Flats may have commented on once or twice - he needs to nullify Genge and that will destabilise the Tigers entire scrum and in doing so will go a long way to nullifying the Wiese and Ford threats.

We need to look at how we stopped London Irish who had Tuisue an equally dangerous and destructive ball carrier and personally I think Irish have at present a much more dangerous backline than Tigers (that may come back to bite me!!).

Hopefully we will manage this and then let us see how Tigers manage to contain our backrow and backline? Should be a cracker.

Forecast is dry with little wind, which hopefully helps Ant etc. out in the backfield.

One thing for certain, if any space does start to appear Ben Youngs will throw a dummy and run through the gap. It is his favourite trick, do not fall for it.

Quote:

B4thB4ck
One thing for certain, if any space does start to appear Ben Youngs will throw a dummy and run through the gap. It is his favourite trick, do not fall for it.

I'm pretty happy van Poortliet isn't going to be the one running through gaps. Someone ought to be able to catch Youngs if he goes through.

Quote:

B4thB4ck
One thing for certain, if any space does start to appear Ben Youngs will throw a dummy and run through the gap. It is his favourite trick, do not fall for it.

OK BB I've got that! Just so I know, should I do that before George Ford knocks me out, because I've got clear instructions from Matt on the 'Red = 2 yellows thread' and I don't want to get it wrong you see!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

B4thB4ck
One thing for certain, if any space does start to appear Ben Youngs will throw a dummy and run through the gap. It is his favourite trick, do not fall for it.

OK BB I've got that! Just so I know, should I do that before George Ford knocks me out, because I've got clear instructions from Matt on the 'Red = 2 yellows thread' and I don't want to get it wrong you see!

Hold my beer, I have to go and read that thread....

Quote:

B4thB4ck

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

B4thB4ck
One thing for certain, if any space does start to appear Ben Youngs will throw a dummy and run through the gap. It is his favourite trick, do not fall for it.

OK BB I've got that! Just so I know, should I do that before George Ford knocks me out, because I've got clear instructions from Matt on the 'Red = 2 yellows thread' and I don't want to get it wrong you see!

Hold my beer, I have to go and read that thread....

I've got it, your safe don't worry, I don't drink Guinness!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Ok I am back. There seems to be less beer in my glass than before..... oh well we are all Bath fans in here so I will let that go.

I don't find these law tinkering proposals very interesting but what I would say to the above is could we nominate someone more deserving of a nudge in the chops? George is probably one of the best players I have ever seen live and seems a good bloke too.

Joking aside I take your point, he may be comparably small but seems to bounce up from anything. I don't ever recall seeing him leave the pitch injured but it must have happened. I think he is stronger than many give him credit for, he might go back in a tackle but rarely misses one.

Was it a young Freddie B who picked up a pitch invader once and dumped him on his backside?

Olly Barkley.

[www.youtube.com]

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:16:17:35:16 by BathMatt53.

Quote:

Optimist

Quote:

B4thB4ck
One thing for certain, if any space does start to appear Ben Youngs will throw a dummy and run through the gap. It is his favourite trick, do not fall for it.

I'm pretty happy van Poortliet isn't going to be the one running through gaps. Someone ought to be able to catch Youngs if he goes through.

I tend to agree, Youngs and Wiggs is a bit conservative(with a very small c), however I think I understand Borths thinking, JvP is full of talent, he will get his time.

Rare case of good weather and playing a wider game possibly benefitting us.

That is a v big and experienced leic pack and brothers clearly putting a lot of effort into making them horrid to play against.

That looks a pretty rounded team for us who can have a go up front but if struggling then plenty of firepower in theory



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:17:07:19:15 by charlieboa.

This will be a good test for us as we are unlikely to have dominance in the pack so will struggle to score push over tries. Can we find alternative ways to break through defences? That is the question.

Quote:

Bath Hammer
This will be a good test for us as we are unlikely to have dominance in the pack so will struggle to score push over tries. Can we find alternative ways to break through defences? That is the question.

Completely agree. A really good test of whether we can achieve balance in our game, solve problems on the go, and score tries in a wider variety of ways.

No excuses. If we're serious about being competitive, this is the sort of game we need to win. COYB.

Watson passes the ball in open play, alleluia!! More please...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Keep it coming. Anchored by pasty and chips at the angelfish cafe in Monkton.
Wife has just realised we’ve got to cycle up morris lane to get home. Hoping to get back for the second half!

Bath a bit erratic at the moment, plenty of possession but lost chances in the 22. Then
Muir scores ! 7-6

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Watson needs a bit of high ball catching practice but who cares when he breaks the line like that!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

We really need a bit of game management from 10, in addition Spencer doesn't always take the right decisions with the penalties I'm afraid.
Kicking from 9 is just up and down and very predictable.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

7-14..........lots to work on !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

This is going the way of the game at Welford Road if we aren’t careful. Expending loads of energy and not getting the reward, now we are on the back foot.

Scrum poor and too many errors.

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Anybody on the bench with a bit of magic ?

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Two limp middle-ish of the table teams lacking in basic skills and ideas flapping it out in a pretty tedious fashion. Both are miles away from the way that Quins and Saints are battering teams. Very disappointing game for both teams so far, an advert for sunbathing / working in the allotment.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Tigers on top of every scrum so far and this is our best front row ?

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

The officials are a bit one eyed today

Oh dear Bath very average. 7- 17. Needs some magic from someone .

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

We need a score now from this position...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Need to score from here or it’s game over. Huff and puff getting into the 22 with no reward is killing us.

New front row no better, penalties at every scrum .
Then....

Miles Reid scores ! 14-17

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Happy with a floppy one tbh! Now let’s own the game and keep it away from Ford’s boot.

Looks like we’ve got back into Pearce’s good books. Fitness may be the decider in this one.

Looks like game over with 7 mins to go . 14-20.
Then ...Muir scores !! Conversion to win ...... Brilliant

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

You Beauties!!

Never in Doubt!!

YASSSSSS! Oh my nerves.

Bath just scrape it by 1 point , MoM. Mercer !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Feels like we snatched that. Great feeling! Class kick from Spencer to finish it. I’m surprised we didn’t sub Muir for Chudleigh so he at least gets a minute of game time this season.

Fantastic conversion from Spencer. He has been a superb signing for us.

Showed some guts - a very good sign. We've got a tough run in, but nothing to lose. Well done Bath!

Quote:

Mike the Taxi
Never in Doubt!!

+1 ;-)

Not pretty but I’ll take an ugly win over this Leicester team. Puts us up to 7th and just one point off 6th. Another enforced early change in the midfield with JJ going off early and ‘Lando getting on earlier than probably planned definitely didn’t help.

Good character and team belief to stick with it and eventually grind out the scores. Ben Spencer again proving that he’s worth his weight in gold. Too early to give him player of the season? Miles looked very happy to score what I think I saw was his first premiership try and I liked seeing Cameron celebrating enthusiastically with him.

Curious that Henry Thomas got clobbered late and off the ball resulting in a failed HIA but nothing more than a PK? I’ll have to look for that one on the replay.

Obviously hard to tell from the outside but all signs suggest that there’s a good atmosphere within the team. Hope nothing upsets that with new signings and upcoming changes in the squad.

Only caught second half as having to do some work on calls. Not pretty and thought we had blown all our chances with the knock on after the intercept and Cam missing touch from the late penalty. Stupid penalty from Weise gave us a get out of jail free card. Top 4 might look miles off but I'd rather beat Tigers than not.

Some really good bits, some ropey bits but we got there! Great win!

We really do need to look at our discipline, well played you lot, at least we are now making a game of it compared with the previous 2 seasons, we really gave that away, oh well big Derby match with the Sinners next week.

Reminiscent of days gone by! Agree that showed guts and also that there is a good atmosphere in the team- Zach mentioned it in his MoTM interview and Hoops too-"the lads are enjoying playing". Others have mentioned it in their interviews.

We should, with more accuracy, have had more than the one first half try and I think decisions on how to use the penalties could have been better too- we kicked at goal when it was too far and wasted a chance to go ahead on the half time whistle by not opting for goal. Great though to snatch it at the death.

I am not sure the officials were one-eyed. Apart from one I would agree with the scrum penalties. The one area where I think we were short changed was not rolling away - Leicester were at it all afternoon -eventually penalised just in time! At least though Luke Pearce knows and applies the offside law - best ref in the Prem for me.

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Lacking control from fly-half a real problem we did well to overcome today! Priestland's value is evident when he's absent, his kicks from restarts are pin point and are often a source of turnover ball or penalties, especially with Muir challenging for the ball, this didn't happen once today. Team spirit/morale once again carrying us through especially with the disruptions to our backline. Some are critical of Hooper's pre and post match comments but the lauded Borthwick was as bland and formulaic as they come! Enjoyable 'never in doubt' win today.

Really happy we stuck to our more expansive game plan even though plenty of bumps in the road could off derailed us and probably would have done in the past. It's really hard to gauge where we and Leicester are at the moment as they looked effective but limited. They really relied on Ford, scrums and Wiese/Genge smashing people but it was very effective.

The strength of the Leciester scrum makes me slightly less worried about our scrum performance, especially with Dunn to come back but Stuart seems to come off second best against refs quite regularly. Would like to think that the time we have spent on the lineouts in recent weeks can now be focussed on scrums.

Bailey looks assured so thats a real plus for next year and Watson, Redpath and Muir look great and Big Jo looks slightly more confident week by week. I hope Joseph isn't too badly injured as his body is starting to look even more fragile.

Great result there for Bath👏 That last kick by Ben was amazing!

Jon Chess

It was a fantastic result and a great kick from Spencer but I'm getting a bit tired of Spencer protecting Bailey and any other fly half to be honest.

We were taken apart by George Fords kicking again and not necessarily the much hyped "spiral bombs" our kicking is never anything than parallel to the tech line and Spencer only passes to Zach or Watson. Bailey can't learn anything if this continues and taking away the kicking from a fly half is like tying his laces together.

Watson at fullback is a brilliant attacker but TdG is a better fullback. Muir is getting to be one of my favourites along with Reid who would now be in my starting XV.

No idea how Stuart and Obano got taken apart in that game but I guess Mr Hatley will keep them back after training on Monday!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:18:19:57:46 by shipwrecked.

Painful to watch. Very poor from both teams. In truth neither side played well enough to deserve to win. Awful lack of composure from Bath. Lack of discipline, lack of accuracy, lack of attacking structure. We were genuinely hard done by in the scrums and the loss of Joseph and Matavesi seriously affected the cohesion of our backline, but neither of them looked very cohesive anyway. Or very fit. Leicester came to spoil up front, boot the ball up in the air and hope we would make mistakes. It shows how badly we played that this strategy was very nearly successful. I think we will finish the season in sixth place and I think this flatters us.

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malco
Painful to watch. Very poor from both teams. In truth neither side played well enough to deserve to win. Awful lack of composure from Bath. Lack of discipline, lack of accuracy, lack of attacking structure. We were genuinely hard done by in the scrums and the loss of Joseph and Matavesi seriously affected the cohesion of our backline, but neither of them looked very cohesive anyway. Or very fit. Leicester came to spoil up front, boot the ball up in the air and hope we would make mistakes. It shows how badly we played that this strategy was very nearly successful. I think we will finish the season in sixth place and I think this flatters us.

Thank christ we won!! Never mind cricket season has started!.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:18:19:50:36 by Long Term.

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Long Term

Quote:

malco
Painful to watch. Very poor from both teams. In truth neither side played well enough to deserve to win. Awful lack of composure from Bath. Lack of discipline, lack of accuracy, lack of attacking structure. We were genuinely hard done by in the scrums and the loss of Joseph and Matavesi seriously affected the cohesion of our backline, but neither of them looked very cohesive anyway. Or very fit. Leicester came to spoil up front, boot the ball up in the air and hope we would make mistakes. It shows how badly we played that this strategy was very nearly successful. I think we will finish the season in sixth place and I think this flatters us.

Thank christ we won!! Never mind cricket season has started!.

I'd endorse that LT along with your comment on fly halves above. My feeling is that we just need to win a semi and the game after it, I think they are called finals.... been a while after all. I'm really not worried about how we do that!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

malco
Painful to watch. Very poor from both teams. In truth neither side played well enough to deserve to win. Awful lack of composure from Bath. Lack of discipline, lack of accuracy, lack of attacking structure. We were genuinely hard done by in the scrums and the loss of Joseph and Matavesi seriously affected the cohesion of our backline, but neither of them looked very cohesive anyway. Or very fit. Leicester came to spoil up front, boot the ball up in the air and hope we would make mistakes. It shows how badly we played that this strategy was very nearly successful. I think we will finish the season in sixth place and I think this flatters us.

Agree with all of this. Do think that Bath suffered when Redpath had to go to 13, we lost twice (JJ and Redpath as a 12, where he is class).

Also agree SW that Spencer is better without having to play the role of about 3 players. Bailey pretty invisible again in terms of playmaking although made no obvious mistakes again. Reid is rapidly making himself undroppable, as is Mercer.

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Barnoid
Puts us up to 7th and just one point off 6th.

Woohoo! OK its better than 8th and its a win but tbh it feels like those 10 points to Quins in 4th are a million miles away at the moment. We sneaked past a poor and 1-dimensional Tigers team at home with the last kick...Borthwick may have moulded them into a better unit up front but their attack is awful considering they have the 2 England 1/2 backs as their 4 bonus points this season shows.

A win is great, but I won't be celebrating mid-table mediocrity any time soon.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

I honestly think a class fly half( particularly with ball in hand eg George Ford) and confidence gained from a series of wins would be enough to relieve the anguish of several supporters and transform this side( considering the squad we have). Though not a fan it will be interesting to see what effect Cipriani has!

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Long Term
Though not a fan it will be interesting to see what effect Cipriani has!

In as much as he will demand the ball and do something with it (whether good or bad who knows!) then agreed. The one issue is that if he really only is joining up with the team in May then there may only be maybe 4 games left (i.e. Sale onwards)? I wonder if he was registered for Europe in case bath get through the semi?

I think that frustration sums it up more than anguish, its like my school reports, lots of potential but never actually fulfilled it...suspect they were just being nice though.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

From the Guardia report of the game: “Bath’s England wing Anthony Watson, a British & Irish Lions certainty this summer, said: “Zach has been outstanding for the last four or five games. At first, I questioned his decision to leave the club and I was a bit hostile to him, but the way he has taken the opportunity to represent this club has made me feel like a bit of an idiot. I didn’t think he was making the right decision and I was standoffish. I spoke to him about and I understand his reasons a bit better.

Everything about this quote makes me feel good about the Club. I like the fact that Watson was cross with Zach gift leaving. I like the fact that Zach has his own reasons for going but feels strongly that he wants to keep the respect of his team-mates.

Sorry Opti, hadn't seen your post when I created a new thread based on that quote. I agree, it's really good.

Merits its own thread - a lot to unpack and all of it good!

Agree not pretty but a really gutsy performances, and we got a bit lucky at the end with the Tiggs 8 yanking Mercer by the collar, but will take the win all day long.

Concerned as to why Beno and Will S just couldn’t keep the ref happy at scrum time. Though Cole is a wily operator and Genge is also smart.

Unfortunately JM is not a prem Q out half and OB still has much to le@rn, hence the bleaters moaning the Spencer is overprotective. Personally think that without Spencer’s close mentoring we would have lost today.

Thought Cam was excellent along with Zac. Great result guys.

Bring on Pests.

The first two Will Stuart early engagements were technical (and stupid). He just missed the cadence. Neither prop got beat up, they messed up on technicalities against probably the best front row in the prem.

I'm not too worried about it.

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malco
Painful to watch. Very poor from both teams. In truth neither side played well enough to deserve to win. Awful lack of composure from Bath. Lack of discipline, lack of accuracy, lack of attacking structure. We were genuinely hard done by in the scrums and the loss of Joseph and Matavesi seriously affected the cohesion of our backline, but neither of them looked very cohesive anyway. Or very fit. Leicester came to spoil up front, boot the ball up in the air and hope we would make mistakes. It shows how badly we played that this strategy was very nearly successful. I think we will finish the season in sixth place and I think this flatters us.

I completely agree with every word. Our attitude & team spirit was excellent as always but very little else worked. When you look at our lineup we should do so much better. I’m not sure why that is. I’m certainly not going to blame Hooper who is presiding over a great team ethic. However, unlike BathMatt I found Borthwick’s after match comments impressive. There is a steely resolve & composure there which I find compelling. On recent form Quins & Saints look a good deal better than us so I don’t see us reaching the playoffs but top 6 is realistic as our other rival teams are all flawed.

Just watched the game. Let's be honest, we weren't very good. The Tiggs (plus Luke Peace eventually deciding to ref both sides) handed us that match. I couldn't really see what we were trying to do and we basically won because Zach had an absolute stormer. No one else except Will Muir got above ordinary. I rarely agree with Lol but...

My MotM - Zach Mercer. We are going to miss him, aren't we?

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

A few observations of things not commented upon:

A push on a player without the ball got Ewels a (second) yellow against LI....no such sanction yesterday for Tigs for the assault on Henry Thomas.

Not sure how many penalty offences called on the Tigs during the course of our camping in their Red Zone for the two late tries yet no yellow card sanction

Where has Joe C's ability to tackle disappeared?

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Disunited
Not sure how many penalty offences called on the Tigs during the course of our camping in their Red Zone for the two late tries yet no yellow card sanction

Totally agree, a pet hate of mine, if Muir hadn't scored his second there would have been a clear yellow card. He scored so no card. It was close to the end of the game so had little effect but what if there was 10 minutes to play?

Also what was the awarding of a scrum in the 80 minute all about, an area where we picked up about 6 penalties putting the win at risk and all for a Leicester infringement?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked
Also what was the awarding of a scrum in the 80 minute all about, an area where we picked up about 6 penalties putting the win at risk and all for a Leicester infringement?

Yes Spencer was going nuts, he was going to play the advantage I think by running it back in a couple of times then kicking it out? He was not happy at all!

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Kidney Stone
hence the bleaters moaning

If expressing an opinion about certain tactics in a game is moaning / bleating then the website may as well shut down? Name calling isn't very helpful IMO.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

Optimist
From the Guardia report of the game: “Bath’s England wing Anthony Watson, a British & Irish Lions certainty this summer, said: “Zach has been outstanding for the last four or five games. At first, I questioned his decision to leave the club and I was a bit hostile to him, but the way he has taken the opportunity to represent this club has made me feel like a bit of an idiot. I didn’t think he was making the right decision and I was standoffish. I spoke to him about and I understand his reasons a bit better.
Everything about this quote makes me feel good about the Club. I like the fact that Watson was cross with Zach gift leaving. I like the fact that Zach has his own reasons for going but feels strongly that he wants to keep the respect of his team-mates.

+1

And that Watson was and presumably the club also] fine with being open about it. I wonder if there is an intention on both sides for Zach to return after his Montpelier contract expires?

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Bath Hammer
I found Borthwick’s after match comments impressive. There is a steely resolve & composure there which I find compelling

There's 'a steely resolve' about Borthwick.... and yet, imaginge what this thread would look like if we'd lost yesterday's game in the manner that Tigers lost it. In control of the scoreboard with less than 15 minutes to go. A gormless penalty conceded in the last few minutes to effectively blow the match. Would we have interpreted Hooper's post-match comments as 'steely resolve' or would we all be calling for his head, and fulminating about how well we trained last week?

I had to go out on about 60 minutes, when it was maybe 17-7, couldn't believe we won when I watched the rest. Although it was scrappy and there were so many missed opportunities, there is a lot to be positive about. At the moment we are effectively playing without a 10 and that's no disrespect to Bailey. To win like that with Ford on the other side is impressive. Im looking forward to getting Rhys back and/or Cips.

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Bath Hammer
I found Borthwick’s after match comments impressive. There is a steely resolve & composure there which I find compelling

Yes, nothing wrong with Borthwick but he has his team playing some very forward dominated rugby which results in very few tries despite their 200-odd cap 9 and 10....

I guess its just the Sarries and Exe models (that we are also following). Get the forwards sorted, play tedious rugby for a couple of seasons, then try to get the backs clicking.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

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Optimist

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Bath Hammer
I found Borthwick’s after match comments impressive. There is a steely resolve & composure there which I find compelling

There's 'a steely resolve' about Borthwick.... and yet, imaginge what this thread would look like if we'd lost yesterday's game in the manner that Tigers lost it. In control of the scoreboard with less than 15 minutes to go. A gormless penalty conceded in the last few minutes to effectively blow the match. Would we have interpreted Hooper's post-match comments as 'steely resolve' or would we all be calling for his head, and fulminating about how well we trained last week?

Exactly Opti, the 'steely resolve' of Borthwick has a lot to do with his appearance and reputation rather than what he said (I don't think he feels the need to say much of value to the media in any case). It has to be said Hooper's physical appearance doesn't compare to Borthwick's in the 'steely' stakes but is no reflection on what he says, even if it is equally bland.

pretty much a bog standard performance from bath. sloppy, loads of unforced errors with Treaclehands Charlie to the fore. unable to convert a number of chances going forward.
most worrying was the collapse of our set piece- hitherto one of the strong parts of our game, and the failure of our driving maul to gain any traction at all. our pack was pretty much outplayed, with only zach holding it all together. it is starting to look more foolhardy by the week to have allowed him to leave. they should have splashed the cash to keep him.
on the plus side the boys kept going to the last, which has been a pleasing feature in recent games. despite being disadvantaged by JJ’s early departure the backs defended well (unusually) and we managed to confine them to a single try. bailey got a long run out and did nothing wrong. the lad doesn’t look out of place. gray came on at 13 for the last 25 minutes or so and again he did fine.
one of the bt sports pundits said it. bath always look like 15 guys wearing the same strip but they never perform as a team. it is usually a piece of individual brilliance that sees them through. i think he was referring to will muir’s second try which was very sharply taken. it’s a condemnation of the coaching system we have that they can’t create a whole greater the the sum of the parts.
tigers should have won it. they played a simple error-free game for the first 65 minutes, and they had a guy who knew what he was doing at 10. but they lost their heads after miles reid flopped over, as scoreboard pressure began to mount.
genge was the man of the match for me. huge in the tight and the loose.
they are going to have to bring TdeG back at 15 next week and move Ant to wing. muir looks like he injured himself and with mac likely to be out there will be back 3 issues to resolve. big joe was pretty invisible to be honest.

Today's Times report is a good read.
As well as praising Mercer & Watson it says:

"Bath played more. In fact, Bath played a little too much. Leicester were smart and well conducted by George Ford."

Of the opening 15 minutes:

"this was frenetic and fast and fun from the start and Bath were enjoying it so much that they just played and played and neglected to collect any points on the way."

And of the final 15:
"However, this became a win for grind and personality. They curtailed their ambition and stopped chancing their arm. They were rewarded with a pick- and- go try from Miles Reid and then Muir's show stopping finish."

I bet Opti enjoyed george demanding the ball with a penalty advantage deep in the red zone that enabled Tigers to score their try!

It would be good if Bath were able to get a full debrief from Luke Pearce around our issues at scrum time.

Also interesting to see how friendly the two sides were immediately post the final whistle. Particularly the England squad players.

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Dorset Boy
I bet Opti enjoyed george demanding the ball with a penalty advantage deep in the red zone that enabled Tigers to score their try!

Works both ways DB, Spencer gave them a few minutes around the fringes to pick and go then thew it wide for Muir, brave move when he knew he would have to convert it from out wide for the win. He could've just let the pick and go continue with the chance of a much easier conversion.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

It feels like for the past 3 or 4 games we have come out looking to play, and have looked really impressive for the first 5-10 minutes. We can never keep it going though and the other side come into it more and we go into our shell or start making more and more errors. It's inevitable that other teams will have strong periods, but we never seem to get our fluidity back

The pleasing thing yesterday and against London Irish was that we finished strongly and showed a lot of composure. I am not sure if it is confidence, fitness or something else.

Sadly (or not, judging by reports) I didn't see the match and forgot to record it having reminded myself to record it 25-30 times before leaving the house.

That was brave of Spencer. Of course, if he'd missed the conversion, there would have been howls of anguish at the lack of C in our T-CUP.

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Optimist
Sadly (or not, judging by reports) I didn't see the match and forgot to record it having reminded myself to record it 25-30 times before leaving the house.
That was brave of Spencer. Of course, if he'd missed the conversion, there would have been howls of anguish at the lack of C in our T-CUP.

Full match here Opti not exclusively of course!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Cheers SW ...going to have a watch of that later.

Quote:

Optimist
Sadly (or not, judging by reports) I didn't see the match and forgot to record it having reminded myself to record it 25-30 times before leaving the house.
That was brave of Spencer. Of course, if he'd missed the conversion, there would have been howls of anguish at the lack of C in our T-CUP.

Had Ford earlier nailed a much easier kick then Spencer's brilliant conversion would have counted for nothing

[quote Optimist][quote Bath Hammer]I found Borthwick’s after match comments impressive. There is a steely resolve & composure there which I find compelling[/quote]

The "steely resolve & composure" you saw was blithe complacency in my view. Deflecting the attention on losing from a sure thing winning position with comments about Bath being a very good team with international players and coaches who have been together for some time was inane. I would have been more impressed had he said something along the lines of well we got into a commanding position and we then threw it away in last 10, that's something we are going to take a serious look at in training this week

But then what DoRs say on TV may well be very different to what is said behind the closed dressing room door

Kicking is an odd art, as arcane as anything that happens in the scrum. Ironically, there would have been more pressure on Spencer had the kick been easier, where the expectation of him getting it would have been that much greater.

If I had a penny for every kick missed from the 15 channel, I'd be, well a bit richer.

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FourSticks
Kicking is an odd art, as arcane as anything that happens in the scrum. Ironically, there would have been more pressure on Spencer had the kick been easier, where the expectation of him getting it would have been that much greater.
If I had a penny for every kick missed from the 15 channel, I'd be, well a bit richer.

For top players I don't think the pressure is an issue. They practise so much that goal kicking is all about the rhythm. The factors that matter most must be angle, distance and wind where any variation off target straight from tee, however slight becomes so critical



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:19:14:18:03 by gaz59.

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FourSticks
If I had a penny for every kick missed from the 15 channel, I'd be, well a bit richer.

Is that true? I think that the percentage on 'kickable' kicks these days must be getting close to 95%.

As gaz says, a really strong wind will mess with kicking. But then, inside a stadium is never going to compare with the top of Lansdown or some other god-forsaken open space on a December day.

My definition of 'kickable' would be anything between the 5-metre lines and less than 40 metres in total length. So a kick in front of the posts on the 10-m line definitely falls into the category of 'kickable', whereas on the axis of the 10-m and 5-m lines isn't.

Kickers should maybe have a 'map' of the pitch defining their own 'kickable' area, and then calculate that percentage to give a true reading of their reliability, and the extent to which the pressure is a factor.

Gaz - had Spencer taken the easy penalty at the end of the first half with the clock in the red, George's miss would have been balanced out, or we wouldn't have needed the touchline conversion at the end.

[www.somersetlive.co.uk] - Chronic Player ratings

Thanks sw for the link-I'll now watch the game. (Can never get it on the Gallagher website and put it down to having a mobile and no laptop, but it might be incompetence!). As has been said before, criticism of the club for losing Mercer ignores the fact that French clubs can offer more money due to a much higher salary cap, not to mention the appeal of a new environment(How many posters on here have never changed jobs /employers?). That this new environment happens to be a lovely city in a gorgeous part of France with great beaches makes Zac's move even more understandable and, I feel, criticism of the club very unfair!

I think the main issue at scrum time was Tiggers were getting lower than us. Beno's hinging which caused us a few pens was a result of this.

However on a positive side, its good to see du Toit and Schoeman finding their groove and really adding impact when they come on.

Designed in Scotland | Made in the West Country

With Dunn back next week, and fingers crossed for JJ, TdG and RP, there's a chance of us fielding a first-choice 8 next week away to Wasps. Good opportunity to see if we can tighten up and dictate the pace against a running team. Would be especially nice if TdG, JJ and RP are all fit too.

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Rampant
I think the main issue at scrum time was Tiggers were getting lower than us. Beno's hinging which caused us a few pens was a result of this.
However on a positive side, its good to see du Toit and Schoeman finding their groove and really adding impact when they come on.

Genge was very obviously pulling Stuart down on the bind. He did it once and got away with it so then kept doing it, to obvious benefit. Any front rower worth their salt would do the same. Top class cheating and naive refereeing not to be able to interpret what was going on right under his nose.

Cole just knows more than Obano does at this time. He's technically probably the best scrummaging tight head in world rugby.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:19:17:30:27 by malco.

Opti...............can you remind me about T-CUP

T-CUP was one of Clive Woodward’s mantras. If I remember rightly it stands for Thinking Correctly Under Pressure.

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Optimist
With Dunn back next week, and fingers crossed for JJ, TdG and RP, there's a chance of us fielding a first-choice 8 next week away to Wasps. Good opportunity to see if we can tighten up and dictate the pace against a running team. Would be especially nice if TdG, JJ and RP are all fit too.

Not sure about RP Opti - at end March he was said to be “out for about a month”.

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Thanks DL

Its a difficult one, overall the performance wasn't great, I thought Tigers definitely looked more in control, more dangerous in attack and frankly the better team. However, as we've seen Ford do it in a Bath shirt many times before, he kicked all of their possession away or shot at goal when he could have gone for the corner and applied pressure. Ford is probably one of, if not, the best 10s playing right now, his ability to put players into space and manipulate defences, is second to none. But he lacks a killer instinct to sense when to put a team to the sword. I think his downfall is that sticks to a game plan even when it stops working, and that's kind of what happened yesterday. They didn't get far enough ahead, and we started catching those kicks, disrupting their lineout and once fatigue set in, we managed to start breaking tackles and gain the ascendency.

That said, it was a good victory for us. No real 10, no scrum, maul didn't really work, early injury to JJ and Matavesi didn't look comfortable at all, and last but not least the opposition actually played very well. Many reasons we should have lost but we didn't, so its difficult to pick fault.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:19:18:39:35 by by.

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Devonport Lad
T-CUP was one of Clive Woodward’s mantras. If I remember rightly it stands for Thinking Correctly Under Pressure.

It was indeed one of the sayings the wooden top picked up. He never had an original thought.
It’s usually taken to mean thinking clearly under pressure

I think Tigers looked more in control because they limited their game and once the ref decided that every scrum was a penalty for them it seemed as if they could win just by kicking, chasing and getting penalties.

Last season we played much the same way but it is pleasing to see that we are trying to keep the ball in hand and spread the ball wide. It was good to see that continue despite losing JJ, having a very inexperienced 10 and Josh Matavesi clearly carrying a knock.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:19:18:47:25 by Coalminer.

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Dorset Boy
Gaz - had Spencer taken the easy penalty at the end of the first half with the clock in the red, George's miss would have been balanced out, or we wouldn't have needed the touchline conversion at the end.

From memory that Spencer penalty was pretty much on the spot from where Ford missed so obviously wasn't that easy - I reckon the breeze must have been stronger than some appreciated which would make the final conversion all the more impressive

And yes I'm sure Hoops would have been mad at spurning 3 points with last kick of the first half but clearly Spencer saw and thought the try was on. Undercooked by about 3 metres otherwise we would have been jumping for joy and saying what a genius bit of imaginative play

Only 130 posts after a hard fought victory over Leicester!! Is it due to a lack of posts from certain posters due to it being a win or has the removal of relegation taken the edge off games like this?!

Quote:

Long Term
Only 130 posts after a hard fought victory over Leicester!! Is it due to a lack of posts from certain posters due to it being a win or has the removal of relegation taken the edge off games like this?!

Don't forget that now you can't actually watch the match live many people can't see the game as they don't have BT. I suspect that some that do might give it a miss when the weather's as good as it was Sunday. Perhaps someone can tell us the viewing audience for that game. I'd say less than half of my mates have Sky or BT...

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TomReagan

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Long Term
Only 130 posts after a hard fought victory over Leicester!! Is it due to a lack of posts from certain posters due to it being a win or has the removal of relegation taken the edge off games like this?!

Don't forget that now you can't actually watch the match live many people can't see the game as they don't have BT. I suspect that some that do might give it a miss when the weather's as good as it was Sunday. Perhaps someone can tell us the viewing audience for that game. I'd say less than half of my mates have Sky or BT...

Maybe but recent games have had over 100 more posts resulting.

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Long Term

Quote:

TomReagan

Quote:

Long Term
Only 130 posts after a hard fought victory over Leicester!! Is it due to a lack of posts from certain posters due to it being a win or has the removal of relegation taken the edge off games like this?!

Don't forget that now you can't actually watch the match live many people can't see the game as they don't have BT. I suspect that some that do might give it a miss when the weather's as good as it was Sunday. Perhaps someone can tell us the viewing audience for that game. I'd say less than half of my mates have Sky or BT...

Maybe but recent games have had over 100 more posts resulting.

Its also about the first time most of the nation have been allowed out after being 'locked down' the weekend was bright and sunny and we have been confined by our own homes. I really don't think you should read anything into it.

Getting back to the shops even has a name, its called revenge shopping!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:19:21:29:16 by shipwrecked.

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shipwrecked

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Long Term

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TomReagan

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Long Term
Only 130 posts after a hard fought victory over Leicester!! Is it due to a lack of posts from certain posters due to it being a win or has the removal of relegation taken the edge off games like this?!

Don't forget that now you can't actually watch the match live many people can't see the game as they don't have BT. I suspect that some that do might give it a miss when the weather's as good as it was Sunday. Perhaps someone can tell us the viewing audience for that game. I'd say less than half of my mates have Sky or BT...

Maybe but recent games have had over 100 more posts resulting.

Its also about the first time most of the nation have been allowed out after being 'locked down' the weekend was bright and sunny and we have been confined by our own homes. I really don't think you should read anything into it.

Getting back to the shops even has a name, its called revenge shopping!

Thanks for your reply Shipwrecked I'm not really concerned I'm afraid I may have been having a sly (or poss not so sly) dig at certain posters I have crossed swords with in the past which should really be beneath me.

Also thanks Tom for bothering to reply to my above post!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:19:21:45:40 by Long Term.

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Long Term

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shipwrecked

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Long Term

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TomReagan

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Long Term
Only 130 posts after a hard fought victory over Leicester!! Is it due to a lack of posts from certain posters due to it being a win or has the removal of relegation taken the edge off games like this?!

Don't forget that now you can't actually watch the match live many people can't see the game as they don't have BT. I suspect that some that do might give it a miss when the weather's as good as it was Sunday. Perhaps someone can tell us the viewing audience for that game. I'd say less than half of my mates have Sky or BT...

Maybe but recent games have had over 100 more posts resulting.

Its also about the first time most of the nation have been allowed out after being 'locked down' the weekend was bright and sunny and we have been confined by our own homes. I really don't think you should read anything into it.

Getting back to the shops even has a name, its called revenge shopping!

Thanks for your reply Shipwrecked I'm not really concerned I'm afraid I may have been having a sly (or poss not so sly) dig at certain posters I have crossed swords with in the past which should really be beneath me.

Not at all LT, its called supporting!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Actually I will concede LT that there's something in what you say. I regularly browse the Somerset and Norwich City websites. With the football there's no real difference- the 'pantwetters' and 'happy clappers', to use their terms, are in fairly equal numbers although the latter are in the ascendancy this season! With Somerset I think you get far more posts when there's a batting collapse (ie most matches) than when their bowlers win the game for them. Victories are welcomed and can make a weekend, but losses almost require many to vent their spleen. Sort of cathartic!!

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TomReagan
Actually I will concede LT that there's something in what you say. I regularly browse the Somerset and Norwich City websites. With the football there's no real difference- the 'pantwetters' and 'happy clappers', to use their terms, are in fairly equal numbers although the latter are in the ascendancy this season! With Somerset I think you get far more posts when there's a batting collapse (ie most matches) than when their bowlers win the game for them. Victories are welcomed and can make a weekend, but losses almost require many to vent their spleen. Sort of cathartic!!

Must have a look at the Somerset website having watched every game this season, including warm up matches, on their stream. The three T's at the top of the order a bit of a concern at present!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:20:09:19:34 by Long Term.

Byrom not being picked. Banton not ready to be an opener in red ball cricket just yet. Doesn't help that Lammonby averages 1.5 after 4 innings! The message board has some good posters but not enough of them! I love the streaming, albeit some of the accompanying radio commentary a bit unnecessary when you're watching and Gibson embarrassingly one-eyed. Anyway, I'm going way O/T so I'll stop!

It's always been the case on ERE that losses attract way more posts than wins. I guess it's because we all fancy ourselves as 'coaches/pundits/analysts' and there's a bit more to get your teeth into when the professionals have given us an opening by getting it wrong.

Plus, after a loss the 'analysis' broadens out way beyond what happened on the pitch into every aspect of the Club - from bickering about the quality of the Club's social media to attacking/defensive strategies, from the benefits of a club song through to coaching structures, management strategies, recruitment, culture, selection et al.

Personally I think that game pretty much summed up where we are at the moment - There were parts of that game I thought we looked amazing, dynamic and dangerous and then there were other parts where I thought we looked sub standard - Jekyll & Hyde performance.

Steve Borthwick and Tigers will be kicking themselves all day long - that game was definitely theirs - they controlled and dominated key areas and should have seen it out - but they were too conservative, almost too frightened to win it a bit like us in the past.

I am in agreement with Malco - Genge was clearly pulling down but again the referee is a vastly experienced official and failed to see it - Tigers pack definitely had the upper hand - perhaps an insight into Eddie Jones thinking about Ford - that much possession and still he stuck to the game plan even when it was on and I think that is what cost them in the end - not enough points when on the board when they were on offer.

That's enough about Tigers - I personally thought we still do not appear to be a team with a killer edge when in the red zone - brilliant we outscored them 3 to 1 in tries but just how many did we leave out there? Some of the errors were atrocious and again basic skills. I am concerned about the drop off especially up front when the bench comes on - I do like the look of Du Toit the hooker he is abrasive and I noticed he bounced Wiese in one contact which is not easy to do. I thought McNally looked absolutely knackered and desperately in need of a break - Why are we subjecting him to such a workload when Spencer and Stooke are available and playing for United? Next thing he will have a serious injury.

Finally 10 - I am just thinking of what someone such as a positive Cipriani would have done out there on Sunday especially with the opportunities we crafted in the opening half and the fire power in the back 3 - I honestly think we may have been out of sight after 25 minutes. Josh M is just too slow and didn't appear fully fit and Orlando Bailey just hasn't had the exposure yet - that makes me excited to see Cips or a fit again Rhys if we continue create those type of opportunities.

Just some honest thoughts - definitely seeing signs of improvement and I am sure we will continue to improve - the basic skill errors though are so concerning.

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TomReagan
Byrom not being picked. Banton not ready to be an opener in red ball cricket just yet. Doesn't help that Lammonby averages 1.5 after 4 innings! The message board has some good posters but not enough of them! I love the streaming, albeit some of the accompanying radio commentary a bit unnecessary when you're watching and Gibson embarrassingly one-eyed. Anyway, I'm going way O/T so I'll stop!

Agree completely!!

" I thought McNally looked absolutely knackered and desperately in need of a break"

In fairness, he always looks absolutely knackered, and he's always still at it right at the end of his stint.

"perhaps an insight into Eddie Jones thinking about Ford - that much possession and still he stuck to the game plan even when it was on"

Definitely agree with this. The absolute head-up, free-flowing Ford of our miracle 2015 season obviously made a pragmatic decision to be what Eddie and chief lieutenant Faz demanded of him. When I read people pushing Marcus Smith for England, I just wonder what's the point if he is forced to package up as another mini-Faz? And then you look at Joe Simmonds - who defends like a back-rower and is a very reliable placekicker - a fairly decent hybrid of Ford and Faz - but doesn't get a look in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:20:11:16:27 by Optimist.

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Optimist
When I read people pushing Marcus Smith for England, I just wonder what's the point if he is forced to package up as another mini-Faz?

Todays RUW has Marcus Smith as one of the co-presenters and he discusses exactly this. In his second season at Quins he was forced to play a type of game that didn't suit him and now he is really enjoying himself doing what is in front of him and playing his own game. Danny Care made your point Opti that its a waste of time picking Marcus Smith and telling him to play a particular game which isn't his own.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

....and another thing - just watched the highlights for first time. Very irritating how commentators/reporters have latched on to George Ford's 'spiral bombs', and have now forgotten to actually look at whether his kick is a spiral or not. The one that Watson spilled looked very much like a simple punt with his foot going through the end of the ball, not kissing the side of it in a way that would impart spin. Watson didn't misjudge it at all, it was just a perfectly judged up and under and a well-timed chase by Steward who competed in the space.

I wonder what the England team would look like if Pat Lam were in charge. Not massively different in personnel, but so, so different in intent. Youngs, Farrell, Billy V would be for the chop, I reckon. Mercer, Dombrandt, both Simmonds, Devoto, Mitchell, would come into the picture, and players such as Ford, Malins, Slade, Curry, Earl would really thrive.

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Optimist
I wonder what the England team would look like if Pat Lam were in charge. Not massively different in personnel, but so, so different in intent. Youngs, Farrell, Billy V would be for the chop, I reckon. Mercer, Dombrandt, both Simmonds, Devoto, Mitchell, would come into the picture, and players such as Ford, Malins, Slade, Curry, Earl would really thrive.

In attack yes, attractive to watch. However, does that win you key games? Isn't it not conceding that does that and that's the reason Eddie is tolerated.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

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shipwrecked

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Optimist
I wonder what the England team would look like if Pat Lam were in charge. Not massively different in personnel, but so, so different in intent. Youngs, Farrell, Billy V would be for the chop, I reckon. Mercer, Dombrandt, both Simmonds, Devoto, Mitchell, would come into the picture, and players such as Ford, Malins, Slade, Curry, Earl would really thrive.

In attack yes, attractive to watch. However, does that win you key games? Isn't it not conceding that does that and that's the reason Eddie is tolerated.

I know his win record is good overall, but he did just win the 5N wooden spoon for the second time.

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woodpecker

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shipwrecked

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Optimist
I wonder what the England team would look like if Pat Lam were in charge. Not massively different in personnel, but so, so different in intent. Youngs, Farrell, Billy V would be for the chop, I reckon. Mercer, Dombrandt, both Simmonds, Devoto, Mitchell, would come into the picture, and players such as Ford, Malins, Slade, Curry, Earl would really thrive.

In attack yes, attractive to watch. However, does that win you key games? Isn't it not conceding that does that and that's the reason Eddie is tolerated.

I know his win record is good overall, but he did just win the 5N wooden spoon for the second time.

True, I didn't mean to defend EJ just to point out that history says its often defensive stats that win the top prizes.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

We are getting into the old argument about whether you just want your team to win at any cost or if you can put up with the odd defeat when the attacking game that the team focusses on, misfires.

Club or country, I would fit into the latter. But I am a fan, not a coach.

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B4thB4ck
We are getting into the old argument about whether you just want your team to win at any cost or if you can put up with the odd defeat when the attacking game that the team focusses on, misfires.
Club or country, I would fit into the latter. But I am a fan, not a coach.

Yes a neutral would almost certainly prefer to be a fan of France than England at the moment BB.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

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B4thB4ck
We are getting into the old argument about whether you just want your team to win at any cost or if you can put up with the odd defeat when the attacking game that the team focusses on, misfires.

The thing is, you are going to get the odd defeat whatever way you play. England have a good win/loss ratio under Eddie, but they're not unbeaten. Neither are NZ, or France or SA.

So, adopting an unbending philosophy of 'I don't care about the performance, or the entertainment value, or the long-term development of players; I only care about the result' is an exercise in futility anyway. For England it's more a case of, 'would I accept 12/15 wins a season whilst being royally entertained, or 13/15 wins whilst being bored shoeless'.

Finally got round to watching the game:
- reffing of scrum seemed odd. Didn't feel like leic had proven significant dominance before we started getting pinged off the park. Stuart ends up on his face and pen for being long legged. Heyes ends up on his face and it's beno hinging.
- ford's set up of Moroni try is exactly the kind of thing I expect cips to bring. Vision and clinical finishing.
- getting fed up of Bailey being reduced to bit part. I appreciate the sentiment but it will undermine his confidence and slow his development.
- redpath is an excellent 12, a passable 10 but not a v good 13. Re-jigging hampered us. Fair play to josh for having a decent game on one leg.
- muir is a serious asset. Underhill now has a very useful carrying game. Mercer and watson in great form.
- great to see us punish heyes and wiese being numb skulls at the end esp after cheap shot on Henry.
- as monye said we have individual brilliance but don't look coherent. Coaches still must do better imho.
- good spirit to pull off an unlikely win at the end but don't feel it will have Exeter and bris quaking in their boots

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charlieboa
- getting fed up of Bailey being reduced to bit part. I appreciate the sentiment but it will undermine his confidence and slow his development.
- redpath is an excellent 12, a passable 10 but not a v good 13. Re-jigging hampered us. Fair play to josh for having a decent game on one leg.
- muir is a serious asset. Underhill now has a very useful carrying game. Mercer and watson in great form.

Agree with all of that CB particularly the quoted parts, Bailey is presumably being protected to prevent him making a big error, however, if he doesn't he simply doesn't learn. Thats why some on here were advocating a run out before he actually got one. To expose him to senior rugby.

Bailey will not ever go high on players like Tuisue again as an example, if he isn't given the ball he can never learn how to manage a game, a massive part of a flyhallf's role. The protection is becoming counter productive now.

As you say I love Muir and Underhill gets better and better, but so does Reid!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

I too would like Bailey just to be allowed to play. I note he took a couple of the late penalty kicks to touch - not sure if that was a sign of "protect him early & let him ease into the game" or if he demanded more involvement.

Either way, it worked!

He looked pretty useful against Zebre - let him have his head more!

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Spencer was often kicking to touch when Rhys was playing. He's clearly a confident goal-kicker, I don't see the fact that Bailey is not doing these things as holding him back. The chopping and changing in midfield, either through injury or not is probably a bigger issue.

I think aiming for Bailey/Redpath as starting 10/12 for the next two (three?) games until Rhys is fit is probably a good pattern to aim for and let them develop together.

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hasta
Spencer was often kicking to touch when Rhys was playing. He's clearly a confident goal-kicker, I don't see the fact that Bailey is not doing these things as holding him back. The chopping and changing in midfield, either through injury or not is probably a bigger issue.
I think aiming for Bailey/Redpath as starting 10/12 for the next two (three?) games until Rhys is fit is probably a good pattern to aim for and let them develop together.

Problem is Hasta, Redpath won't get the ball, that is exactly the issue.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Nonsense: [www.espn.co.uk]

25 kicks from hand/144 passes (compared to Tigers 30/99)

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hasta
Nonsense: [www.espn.co.uk]
25 kicks from hand/144 passes (compared to Tigers 30/99)

Not from Bailey though are they, how does Bailey build a partnership with Redpath if Spencer doesn't pass to him?

From those stats Spencer made 61 passes, there were 25 kicks from hand say Spencer made half of those 61+12 occasions Spencer had the ball = 83

Bailey made just 10 passes so just 12% of the scrum half's passes go to the fly half. What relationship can be forged on that tiny quota of possession. How is that nonsense?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Matavesi was playing 10.

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hasta
Matavesi was playing 10.

Not for long

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hasta
Matavesi was playing 10.

For 10 minutes! (See 44.40 on video time line)

Bailey replaced Joseph then went to 10, Matevesi went to 12, Redpath to 13.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Interesting listening to Tom Dunn, on the Members meeting last night, regarding the scrum v Leicester.
In a nutshell, Leicester didn't want to compete. Genge was closing the space before the engage or conceding the hit. Completely duped Luke Pearce, who also really wanted quick scrums and were hurrying the players.

Surely some of this is down to Bailey not demanding the ball.

Its obvious that they're playing a more conservative game plan than they do with Rhys but Spencer can't give a pass to Bailey if Bailey isn't calling for it.

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by
Surely some of this is down to Bailey not demanding the ball.
Its obvious that they're playing a more conservative game plan than they do with Rhys but Spencer can't give a pass to Bailey if Bailey isn't calling for it.

That might be very slightly the case, but it's blindingly obvious that they've made a tactical decision to play through 9, and to reduce the amount of ball 10 receives. In the first match or two Spencer was virtually looking up, seeing Bailey and turning round the other way.

I'm sure he'd like to be place-kicking, but there's a huge benefit in having that minute or so, while Spencer is taking place-kicks, to talk, listen and soak up advice from the senior players around him.