THE STING. WASPS v BATH

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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:27:08:50:45 by P G Tips.

I think there is zero chance we see even half of that team sheet with the game versus Montpellier next week.

- Montpellier play on Friday night and have a 2 day extra rest period over us as it is.
- Bath play Wasps on a Sunday, giving us just 6 days to turn it around. No chance we see the big names play.

Finally Thomas' concussion was not from the lineout push but from collecting Weise's boot to the face about 5 phases before that lineout, it was not to heavy and he should be fit no play no problem.

Quote:

Peteyboy
I think there is zero chance we see even half of that team sheet with the game versus Montpellier next week.
- Montpellier play on Friday night and have a 2 day extra rest period over us as it is.
- Bath play Wasps on a Sunday, giving us just 6 days to turn it around. No chance we see the big names play.

Finally Thomas' concussion was not from the lineout push but from collecting Weise's boot to the face about 5 phases before that lineout, it was not to heavy and he should be fit no play no problem.

Peteyboy I'm not so sure. I still think 4th is realistic so I don't think we should be resting too many, at least not yet. If we can win all the remaining league games except Bristol and pick up one bonus point along the way we will be on 61pts. Having a quick look at the remaining fixtures I can see it ending up as
3. Quins 71
4. Bath 61
5. Sale 61
6. Northampton 54
7. London Irish 50.
It could be really tight between us and Sale again so we need every point we can get. I know some say there's no point in coming 4th as we can't beat Bristol or Chiefs and 90% of the time they would be right. But if we can get there we should try as theres still a 1 in 10 chance we could play out of our skins when they have an off day.

Quote:

I think there is zero chance we see even half of that team sheet with the game versus Montpellier next week.

I definitely disagree, but specifically:

Props: maybe rotation? But Obano and Stuart aren't exactly rinsed, no reason not to start them.
Hooker: Dunn definitely starts
Locks: No reason Ewels doesn't start, Stooke makes sense.
Back Row: You could make an argument to start Bayliss or Reid. Underhill is fresh. Faletau could rest?

9: We (apparently) only have one scrum half
Midfield: If JJ, Matavesi touch and go I see no reason not to pick Bailey/Cam/Clark.
Back Three: Watson might need to be rested? So pick 3 from Muir/GHW/Coka/Roko.

Quote:

WellyBathChief
Peteyboy I'm not so sure. I still think 4th is realistic so I don't think we should be resting too many, at least not yet. If we can win all the remaining league games except Bristol and pick up one bonus point along the way we will be on 61pts. Having a quick look at the remaining fixtures I can see it ending up as
3. Quins 71
4. Bath 61
5. Sale 61
6. Northampton 54
7. London Irish 50.

I think that bath will finish on 52ish and may (or may not) scrape 6th. For me there is practically no chance that Bath will finish 4th.

Love the optimism though!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

I agree bathrugbymatt, scraping 6th feels more realistic.

I personally would be prioritising winning the euro but I don't think we will as hoops still seems to genuinely think we have a great chance of top 4- would need absolutely everything to go our way. I can't see him giving up on it unless we get nothing out of the wasps game.

There will also be the uncertainties around teams taking their foot off the gas for the last couple of games - Sale play Bears, Quins and Chiefs in their last games. Bears and Chiefs are likely to have already qualified top 2 so may well be saving players for the end of season playoffs whilst Sale will be eyeballs out. I can't see them losing all of those.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Odogwu vs Coka or Muir = oh dear

Quote:

abendanon-anon-anon
Odogwu vs Coka or Muir = oh dear

Oh dear for who? Could hardly pick out 3 x more radically different specimens of the rugby wing body type!!

Odogwu vs Coka in the air?
Odogwu vs Muir on a crash ball?
Odogwu vs Coka in a 'phone-box'?
Odogu vs Muir in a foot-race?

Quote:

Optimist

Quote:

abendanon-anon-anon
Odogwu vs Coka or Muir = oh dear

Oh dear for who? Could hardly pick out 3 x more radically different specimens of the rugby wing body type!!

Odogwu vs Coka in the air?
Odogwu vs Muir on a crash ball?
Odogwu vs Coka in a 'phone-box'?
Odogu vs Muir in a foot-race?

Agreed, a poor assessment on my part.
My thoughts were purely around speed and foot work. I know he would run rings around most people, but he is very strong also, so perhaps our boys would only likely out perform him in the air .

Wil Muir has been pretty solid defensively, he would be my pick, I do admit to an element of bias though!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

The Pests (why don't we call them the Jaspers?) are talking about possibly playing Fekitoa at 12 and Odogwu at 13.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

“ also keeping European hopes alive in the Champions Cup”
I’m not sure we would have any hope in the semifinals of the Champions Cup, in the Challenge Cup however we certainly do!

Territory and power again. Its what we're good at. Their pack won't live with it if we're on song.

Quote:

dcsh
“ also keeping European hopes alive in the Champions Cup”
I’m not sure we would have any hope in the semifinals of the Champions Cup, in the Challenge Cup however we certainly do!

Thanks.
Now fixed.

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Wasps have lost their last 6 at home! Unfortunately, history has taught me that kind of stat usually means a win for the other side.

I'll be really disappointed if Spencer is starting. We're not going to get into the top 4 and top 6 really doesn't mean much. All the focus should be on winning next weekend.

Quote:

ballsout
Wasps have lost their last 6 at home! Unfortunately, history has taught me that kind of stat usually means a win for the other side.

They really missed Launchbury, Jack Willis, Odogwu, Robson and then more recently had to play some really tough fixtures vs Bears, Sale, Clermont etc. I think that the challenge on Sunday will be much tougher than the form book would suggest. If the team selections are as we expect (a few Wasps back and a few Bath rested) then Wasps should be going in as slight favourites I think.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Team Up. Dunn's 150th:

Bath Rugby side to face Wasps

15. Anthony Watson, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Will Muir, 10. Orlando Bailey, 9. Will Chudley; 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Tom Dunn, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Miles Reid, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer

Replacements

16. Jacques du Toit, 17. Beno Obano, 18. Henry Thomas, 19. Elliott Stooke, 20. Josh Bayliss, 21. Ben Spencer, 22. Max Clark, 23. Alex Gray

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

15 Rob Miller (120)
14 Paolo Odogwu (19)
13 Malakai Fekitoa (33)
12 Michael Le Bourgeois (54)
11 Josh Bassett (144)

10 Jacob Umaga (44)
9 Dan Robson (131)

1 Tom West (49)
2 Tommy Taylor (87)
3 Kieran Brookes (55)
4 Joe Launchbury (159) (c)
5 Will Rowlands (107)
6 Ben Morris (40)
7 Thomas Young (135)
8 Brad Shields (47)

Replacements

16 Gabriel Oghre (40)
17 Ben Harris (78)
18 Jeff Toomaga-Allen (39)
19 Levi Douglas (11)
20 Tom Willis (36)
21 Will Porter (29)
22 Charlie Atkinson (12)
23 Zach Kibirige (43)

Should be a good game, two decent teams. Some Bath rotation is sensible IMO. COYB!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Those are 2 fantastic looking 23s. Surely this is going to be a cracker!

Some hopes:

- let Landy play
- Chudley plays 70 minutes (because to stop Spencer from subbing himself on, Chudley will have to play out of his skin, and because Spencer has earned a break)
- big Joe gets his hands on the ball early, often and right through Umaga
- and, much more than the result, that it's just a really, really good game of rugby reflective of the sheer volume of EQ talent on the teamsheets

Quote:

Optimist
- and, much more than the result, that it's just a really, really good game of rugby reflective of the sheer volume of EQ talent on the teamsheets

....with Bath just sneaking a twenty point, four try bonus point win?

One thing to make clear, the team owes the supporters one for what happened in the reverse fixture. There is a point that needs to be made clear in this match, even if we are resting a few first choice players.

Quote:

Shadders

Quote:

Optimist
- and, much more than the result, that it's just a really, really good game of rugby reflective of the sheer volume of EQ talent on the teamsheets

....with Bath just sneaking a twenty point, four try bonus point win?

Yes - good point!

Quote:

Optimist

Quote:

Shadders

Quote:

Optimist
- and, much more than the result, that it's just a really, really good game of rugby reflective of the sheer volume of EQ talent on the teamsheets

....with Bath just sneaking a twenty point, four try bonus point win?

Yes - good point!

No Opti, that's 5 points.

Doesn't that just annoy you.......Ha Ha Dorset Boy very clever!!

Quote:

Shadders

Quote:

Optimist
- and, much more than the result, that it's just a really, really good game of rugby reflective of the sheer volume of EQ talent on the teamsheets

....with Bath just sneaking a twenty point, four try bonus point win?

If so they will mostly be scored by the forwards in flop over style. Wouldn’t it be great to see some flowing moves ending in tries for a change!

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

Shadders

Quote:

Optimist
- and, much more than the result, that it's just a really, really good game of rugby reflective of the sheer volume of EQ talent on the teamsheets

....with Bath just sneaking a twenty point, four try bonus point win?

If so they will mostly be scored by the forwards in flop over style. Wouldn’t it be great to see some flowing moves ending in tries for a change!

I'm quite happy to see Will Muir flop over on the wings twice as per Leicester BH. I do think resolving the 10 issue would help greatly though.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Who’s the goal kicker?

Quote:

fat lock
Who’s the goal kicker?

Bailey I would assume? Good opp for him

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

fat lock
Who’s the goal kicker?

Bailey I would assume? Good opp for him

Nah, they'll give it to Dunn wouldn't want to risk Bailey's confidence being blown

Will stuart out. Henry starts with judge on bench

Poor start from Bath , line out lost, scrum lost wasps score 5-0 .

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Yet again Too many penalties, as well as Henry Thomas penalised twice in scrum .

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Good news ! Bath win a scrum penalty, line out on 5 metre line and .............fail, Stuart says we’re inaccurate... a slight under estimate in my opinion 20 mins of going nowhere. Come on Bath let’s see a spark !

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

We haven’t even thrown a punch, let alone land one. Not sure how we are only 5 down with 25 gone but the longer it stays close, the more chance the momentum might swing.

Wasps looking dangerous

Yet another needless penalty and ............Umaga misses !

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Just realised Levi Douglas has given Bath a penalty and Reid scores !!

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

fat lock
Who’s the goal kicker?

Bailey I would assume? Good opp for him

Sadly , way off with his first.

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Levi Douglas looking a lot bigger

Somehow its 5 - 5 Wasps could have been two scores ahead, can we continue to play this badly!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Not just in this game, but the commentary teams seem to be desperate to spot foul play: earlier Healey was sure of a high tackle by Schoeman that turned out to be barely more than nipple high, and just now Kay was sure Launchbury had hurt his knee trying to trip someone when it was just a case of getting himself in a strange position.

Can someone let Umaga know the barbers are open.

Bath all over the place, Bassett scores , why on earth is JC not looking for gaps instead of into contact ? 15 - 5 .

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Bath all over the place again , need some changes for the second - half .

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:25:15:52:23 by Old Bath Tub.

Oh good. One of those games were we can’t put two phases together without blundering.

Our ability to be comically awful is unmatched.

Handing this game to Wasps right now. We're not very good. Wasps should be further ahead . We seem to be a step off the pace and dropping tackles.

Quote:

shipwrecked
Somehow its 5 - 5 Wasps could have been two scores ahead, can we continue to play this badly!

Unfortunately Yes,

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Interesting that Morris ran a blocking line to stop Mercer getting to Umaga. Very similar to the line that Creevy ran when Dunn got his red card. Not spotted by either ref. Though Dunn did complicate matters a little.
Joe C deliberately taking the ball into contact I suspect but got done by Bassett for the try. Bailey showing a little at the end of the half. Goodness don't we miss Spencer!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

O B penalty conversion ! 15 - 8.

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:25:16:12:08 by Old Bath Tub.

Wasps flowing, Bath embarrassing 22 - 8.

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Forward pass for Wasps try

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Have a nasty feeling that is game over. Can't see us getting back into this as it stands. Way to many gaps for Wasps and not enough cutting edge going forward

McNally try !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Umaga is some talent.
They are playing exciting stuff off pretty deep distribution - great to watch to be fair.
We play a nice offloading game and are pretty unstoppable from 5m.
Good game

Still in it

Austin Healy, "When forwards have to think they can't do!"


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Obano try ! 25 - 22.

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Think how effective we could be if we had a properly functioning back line which could contribute to scoring tries rather relying almost totally on our forward pack.

Great try finished by Spencer!

Reid MOTM

Spencer in .............fantastic build up ! 25 - 27 Bonus point !!!

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FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Miles Reid outstanding today. Huge huge future

Healy looking for a red card for Obano ! And Tempest heard him and Wasps score .

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:25:16:48:30 by Old Bath Tub.

I hate the way rugby has gone with all this stuff. Beno has used the arms, dipped his shoulder and that is utterly ridiculous. Pathetic.

Rugby is being destroyed by these red cards

Joe C drops ball on our 22. Why Watson or Bailey didn't just clear the ball, I'll never know.

32 - 29 5 mins to go , JC really off his game. Game gone . 39 - 29.

Bath really need some serious reorganisation

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Once Beno sent off, just play the percentages.
We had two BPs, and lost one due to the ridiculous passing along the 22 when we could have just kicked to touch.

Red card lost that game. It was never a red, never even a penalty. That said our first half was awful and we should have been way further behind than we were. Controlled the second half



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:25:20:59:32 by supermarinematt.

Quote:

dannyf2
I hate the way rugby has gone with all this stuff. Beno has used the arms, dipped his shoulder and that is utterly ridiculous. Pathetic.

So that’s Obano out for the important game next week then.

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

dannyf2
I hate the way rugby has gone with all this stuff. Beno has used the arms, dipped his shoulder and that is utterly ridiculous. Pathetic.

So that’s Obano out for the important game next week then.

Muir as well, failed HIA


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Bath were completely screwed out of this match. Tempest guessing at scrums. One Wasps try from Mercer taken out of the defensive line by a "dummy" runner. One Wasps try from a clear forward pass. Obano sent off for a perfectly legitimate tackle. I'm seriously losing interest in watching the farcical patsy ball that has been foisted on our wonderful sport.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

dannyf2
I hate the way rugby has gone with all this stuff. Beno has used the arms, dipped his shoulder and that is utterly ridiculous. Pathetic.

So that’s Obano out for the important game next week then.

Muir as well, failed HIA

Would have been helpful if PL rugby had brought our game forward to give players more time to rest/prepare for the semi.

Wasps certainly given the rub by the officials today.
Blocking on Mercer = try Wasps
Forward pass = Try Wasps
Obano red - utterly dreadful decision.

We were poor first half, but dominated the second until the red card.

Not happy.

It was a great game - we saved big guns until the last third and seemed to be right on course... Then Tempest decided to destroy the contest. It's becoming increasingly difficult to be enthusiastic when games can be ruined like that in an instant. That just isn't a red in a million years.

As someone who enjoyed the match but has no skin in it, that was a clear red. May not have been a couple of years ago but now it is. Anyone who thinks it was perfectly legitimate hasn't been paying attention lately.

Quote:

APigUnderEachArm
As someone who enjoyed the match but has no skin in it, that was a clear red. May not have been a couple of years ago but now it is. Anyone who thinks it was perfectly legitimate hasn't been paying attention lately.

Perhaps defenders need to be able to remove their head from their body before contact. No idea how they do that though.

Everything about the tackle was legal except the players clashed heads.

Quote:

APigUnderEachArm
As someone who enjoyed the match but has no skin in it, that was a clear red. May not have been a couple of years ago but now it is. Anyone who thinks it was perfectly legitimate hasn't been paying attention lately.

Gloucester fan?!
Put my £5 in the post

A set of 23 individuals, as usual.

As usual, Bath give it to a team in desperate need of a win. 6 home defeats on the trot, until they meet Bath.

Why kick long with 30 seconds to go? So dumb.

Red card fair enough under current guidelines but cost us. At present Bailey not ready for first team, eg his pass to Cokanasiga in our 22 ,which was knocked on, poor decision at a time when it was his responsibility to take control of situation. At present he offers very little and has to be protected. He will improve but will have to do so quickly on the job. Tempest doesn't impress , why towards the end of the game does the touch judge feel the need to intervene to call for a scrum reset due to 'instability' when the ref is stood over it watching!! Good spirit but frustrating in the end and we didn't get the rub of the green. Must be Hooper's fault!!

Can't believe there are people moaning about the red.
If you tackle someone, and as part of that tackle, you basically headbutt them, then under current rules, you're almost certainly off the pitch with either a red or a yellow...the guy's nose was bleeding heavily, so no arguing the contact. You need to go in lower. See Dunn's normal technique.

Not saying Tempo didn't miss the block on Mercer or the forward pass, but we can't complain about the red.

Quote:

dannyf2

Quote:

APigUnderEachArm
As someone who enjoyed the match but has no skin in it, that was a clear red. May not have been a couple of years ago but now it is. Anyone who thinks it was perfectly legitimate hasn't been paying attention lately.

Gloucester fan?!
Put my £5 in the post

You've just thrown away £5. I will expect my £5 in bitcoin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:25:17:25:58 by APigUnderEachArm.

A collection of "talented" individuals does not make a cohesive team. Having worked way back into the match at take the lead on 72 mins,the old old Bath routine of throwing a game away at the end shone through. Another season of re-building.................... So bored by our lack of discernable progress in any form.
Oh well at least the sun was out today!

Do the refs not penalise for offside anymore? Amongst all the other shenanigans going on Wasps seemed to line up in front of the back foot at the ruck all the time. no wonder they were so quick on to us.
Be interested to see how Muir got a bang to the head.

APigUnderEachArm & stephen4944 are correct.

It was a red card. Once reviewed it was always going to be under current protocols. Plenty of other reasons to be dissatisfied with Mr Tempest- not just the 2 dubious tries but knock-ons that weren't given twice at least and Wasps midfield constantly offside (commented on by Healy)- first offside penalty on 57 minutes.

Wasps deserved that, if only for the incision and dash of Umaga - but they did get lucky!

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Couldn’t see anything for Muir went back about 5 minutes. Was it before that?

Unfortunately this side will never amount to anything as long as it’s made up of nothing more than a set of talented, but terribly coached, INDIVIDUALS. Funnily enough playing well for 20 minutes every game isn’t enough at this level.

That first half hour where we literally didn’t do anything was classic Bath. Blundering every 10 seconds, amounting to nothing.

At least we *gasp* RAN IN a try though. Had to rub my eyes in disbelief.

Great team spirit shown by Wasps. You could hear how loud they were on the coverage. The usual subs making a tunnel for the starters to run out to. Our boys run out, crickets.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:25:18:12:02 by ballsout.

I say again, we will lose more matches than we win until we can sort out our back play. We trundle from side to side with little incision & mostly get absolutely nowhere save an occasional spark of individual brilliance. Today I thought we were pretty hopeless in the first half & comprehensively outplayed by a Wasps team that has struggled during most of the season. We managed to come back into it & get ourselves ahead but we cannot depend on our forward pack getting us out of trouble again & again.

I think that Stuart and the coaches know the issues, they just don’t know how to fix them..............and nor do I !

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Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

It really is simple, we play through 9 ALL THE TIME. Chudley was given the same message as Spencer. Why is anyone surprised that the backs aren't working?

If its true that Cipriani is available for the Bristol match then he is going to look like a saviour simply because he gets the ball.

Bailey is now in exactly the situation Hooper said he wanted to avoid. Not trusted with the ball, little experience of game management, no relationship with the rest of the backs. Who may well get dropped next week for Cipriani.
Hooper has done well in some areas but management of the academy inside backs has been a complete mess.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Stuart Hooper “ We didn’t deliver today “. Really ? Still we only have to finish in the top 8 ! Here

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

[quote malco]Bath were completely screwed out of this match. Tempest guessing at scrums. One Wasps try from Mercer taken out of the defensive line by a "dummy" runner. One Wasps try from a clear forward pass. Obano sent off for a perfectly legitimate tackle. I'm seriously losing interest in watching the farcical patsy ball that has been foisted on our wonderful sport

Totally agree game gone soft

Miles Reid, take a bow. Carried the whole team first half and continued to be excellent second half. Really chuffed for him. I fear his reward will be getting dropped for Friday but I really hope not. I am a huge fan of faletau but you have to reward recent form in bb&w otherwise you are making a serious problem for yourself where people think 'what is the point'.

*not saying faletau has been poor for us by any stretch, think he has been v good but reid was better this week than faletau was last week. He has also been a key player in the turnaround of our season (from dreadful to mediocre admittedly)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:25:19:28:15 by charlieboa.

Add that to a very long list of thoroughly annoying games to watch. Is there any disgrace is losing away to wasps? No. Do we need to beat an out of nick wasps to be considered a force? Yes.

It was almost comical how dreadful we were in the first 10 mins and it didn't get much better til the second half.

We then drag ourselves back into a winning position and throw it away with a daft red. I really don't like that it's a red but in the current environment it just is and we are being very slow to learn lessons.

We lack any noticeable game plan with the ball beyond rolling mauls and pick and drives (lovely spencer try aside).

In defence we are cut apart wide so easily, I just keep finding myself thinking 'how soft was that try!'.

I think hoops and hatleys fate is to a large extent in the hands of Cips and Dave Williams. Cips is a bit of a gamble and Williams is going to have to be an excellent appointment. They are failing to get us beyond mediocrity and inconsistency. I still have some patience and some hope as seeing some things I like at the club..... but can understand those who are losing theirs.

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
Stuart Hooper “ We didn’t deliver today “. Really ? Still we only have to finish in the top 8 ! Here

Nice to have confirmation that the bar has been set that low, although never going to win anything meaningful with that attitude.

What a load of absolute nonsense people talk. The two Wasp tries were highly controversial and should have been examined. I bet Hoops is preparing his report to the Ref Tsar on the incompetent judgements on those decisions. Beno’s red was deserved under the new rules and perhaps a new tackling coach is required to instil the discipline of going lower then the nipples. We scored four tries after being under tremendous pressure. We didn’t deliver but we could have done with a bit of the rub of the green.

Yes we made mistakes and our accuracy was missing but that’s sport as the officials also do the same. That’s sport folks!

Some people can be so blinkered. Wow.

Anyway, shame Dunn ran out to absolutely nothing from his team-mates. No cheering, no pats on the back like most sides do, just silence. I can't imagine Exeter or Bristol would do that. Good for him reaching 150, deserves more from this club.

Quote:

ballsout
Some people can be so blinkered. Wow.
Anyway, shame Dunn ran out to absolutely nothing from his team-mates. No cheering, no pats on the back like most sides do, just silence. I can't imagine Exeter or Bristol would do that. Good for him reaching 150, deserves more from this club.

Good grief is that is what you are all about - we haven’t got a birdie song! Pathetic!

Quote:

CoochieCoo

Quote:

ballsout
Some people can be so blinkered. Wow.
Anyway, shame Dunn ran out to absolutely nothing from his team-mates. No cheering, no pats on the back like most sides do, just silence. I can't imagine Exeter or Bristol would do that. Good for him reaching 150, deserves more from this club.

Good grief is that is what you are all about - we haven’t got a birdie song! Pathetic!

Give yourself a warning for that?

What's pathetic is your disparaging comments about Bristol when it's clear for all reasonable, non blinkered people to see they've left us behind and are a good model for success.

What's pathetic is how year, after year, after year, we play, and act like a bunch of individuals, not a team. And it still doesn't get fixed.

What disparaging comments about Bristol?

PG

I'm not too fussed about the result, we rotated players, no 10, unfortunate refereeing and Wasps are a different side with Robson. If anything I'm glad we came away with something.

Reid played brilliantly, can't drop him now. I thought Cokanasiga had a good game too.

It was a red but I don't like it. Concussion is a serious issue but I think we've come a long way with awareness, return to play protocols and pitch side independent doctors, that the long term risk is being managed. Lowering the tackle height, in my uneducated opinion, just moves the head injury risk onto the tackler, whilst also raising the risk of lower limb injuries for the carrier. Worst cases of concussion I've seen whilst playing is 2 tacklers clashing heads, both going low.

Why are our three quarters not functioning? These are the games stats. I’m suggesting playing through the scrum half is ruining any opportunity to use our backs.

Wasps v Bath ESPN player match stats

Kicks from hand 26
Passes : Chudley 36
Passes : Spencer 21
Passes : Bailey. 10

So lets say 9 kicks 13 of the 26

Possession that the scrum half gets is 13 + 36 + 21 = 70 occasions Bailey gets the ball 10 times.

Is it any wonder that Baths three quarters fail to function?

Reid, Dunn, Mercer, Underhill are great players but if they get decent ball from the scrum half and take it into contact behind the likes of Redpath and JJ is it really surprising there is no flow in the backs.
First half whatever ball we got was slow and poor, makes a flyhallf’s job difficult at the best of times. So whatever Bailey got was accompanied by the ‘rush defence’

If everything we get goes through the scrum half it will be box kicks parallel to the touchline or for forwards to take into contact. Very Predictable.

The protection of Bailey just leads to him being neglected and basically ignored. Its hugely counter productive. He has a great pass and proved he can place kick but Orlando Bailey's confidence must be on the floor right now with decreasing opportunities to learn anything this season.

I think this is really poor young player management. Sorry to repeat this but it is wrong not only for the young player but also for the rest of the Bath team.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Personally I’d pick Reid ahead of Underhill on today’s display, but pretty happy to perm any 3 from them, Faletau and Bayliss.

Obano had plenty of time to get lower. Ingrained habits have to change.

Too much wailing and gnashing of teeth here.

The Beno red sealed our fate, the red was deserved. Umanga is so hot and cold, unfortunately for us he was very hot today and Robson was very good too. Pests are a decent outfit, it was never going to be an easy game.

Here’s hoping Will is OK. Agree on the plaudits for Read. His improvement over the last year have been astonishing.

Quote:

ballsout
What's pathetic is how year, after year, after year, we play, and act like a bunch of individuals, not a team. And it still doesn't get fixed.

There you go Hoops you need to fix it with a birdie song!

Quote:

ballsout
Some people can be so blinkered. Wow.
Anyway, shame Dunn ran out to absolutely nothing from his team-mates. No cheering, no pats on the back like most sides do, just silence. I can't imagine Exeter or Bristol would do that. Good for him reaching 150, deserves more from this club.

The club has spent the whole week pumping up his 150 and putting him in front of the media. What are you talking about?

I'm happy that a rotated side has got a BP away at Wasps, and 8 mins from full time we were a red card away from winning.

In his post match comms, Hooper has said that top 8 'to the best of his knowledge' is Champions Cup qualification territory. Reading between the lines, they've viewed Wasps away as a potential chance for points but not a bust your gut game, hence Spencer and Faletau rested (clearly our prized assets).

So, put a decent side out but rest the key elements ahead of a European semi final (happy for little cup, good enough for Saints and Bris) and take what you can from the match, consolidate Prem position and focus fully on Euro.

Overall, happy. Confident with Montpellier next weekend!

I thought it was a red, but it didn't cost us the game as the ref was playing advantage to Wasps having given another penalty against us before the red card was awarded. Tempest not a good referee but I don't think we can blame him for losing. Lots of good performances, Reid especially but also lots of very ordinary back play. Have renewed season ticket, but it was a close thing and really only to be able to watch Cipriani and see how much improvement a decent No 10 can bring to the backs, but it is a tall order the way they are playing at present.

Just watched the game. It would be nice if we could play for more than one half per match. Our backs are a collection of individuals who only appear to have met previously when Spenno is on the pitch, and then only fleetingly. Given the back line we've got, that is a sad indictment of the coaches.

But our biggest problem is we've lost Beno and Horse for the Montpellier game.

My MotM - Miles Reid. Then daylight, then everyone else.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Quote:

BathOtter
I'm happy that a rotated side

What's this rotated side people keep talking about? Do they mean Chudley and Schoeman starting, and the rest being first choice?

Quote:

Confident with Montpellier next weekend!

Yes that first thirty minutes where we literally offered nothing and our scrum getting whistled off the park in three successive weeks is great prep for a big French pack.

Quote:

hasta

Quote:

ballsout
Some people can be so blinkered. Wow.
Anyway, shame Dunn ran out to absolutely nothing from his team-mates. No cheering, no pats on the back like most sides do, just silence. I can't imagine Exeter or Bristol would do that. Good for him reaching 150, deserves more from this club.

The club has spent the whole week pumping up his 150 and putting him in front of the media. What are you talking about?

Read my post again, I'm talking about team-mates, not the club's media department. Just a lonesome run out.

And it's getting a bit embarrassing that week after week the opposition make far more noise than we do. Even through the BT coverage you could hear the stands at the Rec going crazy at everything good Tigers did, and virtual silence for us. Same thing at Wasps.

Quote:

CoochieCoo

Quote:

ballsout
What's pathetic is how year, after year, after year, we play, and act like a bunch of individuals, not a team. And it still doesn't get fixed.

There you go Hoops you need to fix it with a birdie song!

At least you admit something needs fixing, baby steps I suppose.

Quote:

joethefanatic
Our backs are a collection of individuals who only appear to have met previously when Spenno is on the pitch, and then only fleetingly. Given the back line we've got, that is a sad indictment of the coaches.

You expect any different given four of the 5 or 6 coaches are ex tight five forwards?

At least we're attempting a few offloads now. That's progress from the zero most games at the start of the year.

Quote:

ballsout

Quote:

joethefanatic
Our backs are a collection of individuals who only appear to have met previously when Spenno is on the pitch, and then only fleetingly. Given the back line we've got, that is a sad indictment of the coaches.

You expect any different given four of the 5 or 6 coaches are ex tight five forwards?

At least we're attempting a few offloads now. That's progress from the zero most games at the start of the year.

Careful BO, that was almost upbeat.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

I know, us running in a try has me rattled.

I agree with BO that people are over doing the rotation line a bit.

We are missing v few players currently compared to previous seasons, esp in the forwards, we moved beno and spencer to the bench and rested faletau.

That wasn't a 23 were I thought ' wow, all our eggs are in the euro basket'. Hardly wholesale change.

As I say there is no shame in losing to wasps but the nature of it was frustrating and if we want to be serious challengers you can't sleepwalk your way into games for 40 mins, wake up for 20-30 mins and then throw it away by getting someone sent off.

Personally think positives were few and far between beyond a fantastic display by reid, lovely worked try by spencer and more evidence of our pick and drive game is a big asset.

I do think we rely on random moments of brilliance so when we are missing mcconnachie and tdg those are 2 players capable of that.

Drop off from spencer to chudley remains an issue , esp when you don't change your approach.

I am not in the 'its all a disaster and we are an awful club' camp, I think there are lots of things to be hopeful about but I do think we need to judge coaches and players harshly of we have ambitions of becoming anything other than mediocre (which we largely have been for 20 years!)

Quote:

joethefanatic

My MotM - Miles Reid. Then daylight, then everyone else.

[www.somersetlive.co.uk]

Personally think he should have been a 9 with everyone else 7 or below....

I think this performance just reflected where we are as a team & highlighted the weaknesses that have to be addressed in the close season by the new attack coach. It was certainly nothing whatever to do with rotation, which is essential, nor refereeing decisions. There was only one brief period in which we played cohesive & fluent attacking rugby which resulted in Reid’s try I believe. The rest of the match was patchy, error strewn & we didn’t generally threaten. Yes, we can score pick & go tries but we are one trick ponies. We cannot just rely on that method of winning games. We might squeeze into the 6th position by that method but it’s not enough for top 4 in most seasons.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:26:08:39:18 by Bath Hammer.

So Charlie b you wouldn’t have Stuart Faletau Priestland Whacker Mcconachie or de Glanville anywhere near your 23 and Spencer. obano wouldn’t be first choice. They did rotate a bit it nearly came off..
The short turn around does no one favours we should have played Saturday but that’s the telly for you.

I'd love Ballsout to share the footage he clearly has from the bath changing room pre-match, because clearly he is either in there amongst it, or has footage, to be so certain there was nothing for Dunn from his fellow players before he hit the pitch.

Any reasonable points BO puts across are undone by the sort of pathetic assertion regarding Dunn that is totally unfounded.

Quote:

TG Kesmo
So Charlie b you wouldn’t have Stuart Faletau Priestland Whacker Mcconachie or de Glanville anywhere near your 23 and Spencer. obano wouldn’t be first choice. They did rotate a bit it nearly came off..
The short turn around does no one favours we should have played Saturday but that’s the telly for you.

Interesting question. If all players were available mine would (today) be:

15. TDG
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Cameron Redpath
11. Ruaridh McConnochie
10. Priestland
9. Spencer
1. Obano
2. Tom Dunn
3. Will Stuart
4. Josh McNally
5. Stooke
6. Taulupe Faletau
7. Miles Reid
8. Zach Mercer

Sam Underhill, Muir, Bayliss, Ewels, Boyce, Thomas, Walker, Green on bench.

I don't think that Watson is a balanced playmaking 15 in the way that TDG is and I think we have played better as a team with him in. Muir is coming on so fast but is still learning 15s rugby. Sam U is brilliant but Reid is the form Bath player at the moment IMO.

That would be some bench to come on!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

The one (and only one) good thing about losing is we get to hear all the wisdom from Eeyore again.

Agree 100% with your starting XV BathMatt. I'd advoid a 6/2 bench split - and let's assume Cipriani is, as reported, going to be available any moment, i'd stick him in - quite frankly probably ahead of Ewels right now, given that Bayliss appears to be able to do a serviceable job in the 2nd row, or Underhill - again, because Bayliss has a turn of pace that can be pretty useful in the final 20 minutes.

Some interesting comments by Hoops - quite a comment to suggest that the team were just "watching the game" - that makes an inference that the team were either not interested or up for the game - surely that is an issue for both coaches and players - Hoops himself has said in the past he is solely responsible for getting the team focussed entirely on the task at hand.

Having said that the players of course will have one eye on next Saturday as did Tigers on Saturday - No disrespect to Wasps at all but they are like us an average side - we made them look a lot better than they actually were - take Umaga - Chiefs showed perfectly last week how to shut down Wasps attacking game - we just do not appear to be able to learn from the evidence presented to us.

Our backs as I have stated before are brilliant individuals - they have not performed as a unit probably if truthful since George Ford left - I hope and pray that a positive Danny Cipriani can light the touch paper - if nothing else it would be lovely to see Redpath, Joseph, Watson and our wingers get the ball in front of them and in space instead of having to check each time because the pass is either on the floor, over their head, behind them or so slow the entire opposition is there to catch it. Just imagine the damage they could do.

For me personally and it is hard for me to say this as an ex forward - The balance of coaches and key decision makers/strong personalities is way out of balance - Hoops, Hats, Lilley then add Ewels and McNally to the equation - it is far too forward dominated and unless their becomes an equilibrium in this department it will be hard to get it right on the field - to that end I am sure Cips will add his strong personality to even up the scales hopefully with a strong backs coach.

I would be surprised if Cips isn't already training with the lads unofficially and certainly getting upto speed with our limited playbook - so he can hit the road running along with a fully rested Priestland - which would be nice to go from desperate to options.

"Umaga - Chiefs showed perfectly last week how to shut down Wasps attacking game"

You would have thought Underhill would have been all over Umaga yesterday, trying to discourage him from playing anywhere near the gainline. I don't recall Umaga having to pick himself up and dust himself down once yesterday?

Quote:

Ali1969
Some interesting comments by Hoops - quite a comment to suggest that the team were just "watching the game" - that makes an inference that the team were either not interested or up for the game - surely that is an issue for both coaches and players - Hoops himself has said in the past he is solely responsible for getting the team focussed entirely on the task at hand.

I had taken that comment as meaning blinkered / not playing 'heads up' sensible rugby rather than disinterested or unfocussed Ali?

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

Ali1969
Some interesting comments by Hoops - quite a comment to suggest that the team were just "watching the game" - that makes an inference that the team were either not interested or up for the game - surely that is an issue for both coaches and players - Hoops himself has said in the past he is solely responsible for getting the team focussed entirely on the task at hand.
Having said that the players of course will have one eye on next Saturday as did Tigers on Saturday - No disrespect to Wasps at all but they are like us an average side - we made them look a lot better than they actually were - take Umaga - Chiefs showed perfectly last week how to shut down Wasps attacking game - we just do not appear to be able to learn from the evidence presented to us.

Our backs as I have stated before are brilliant individuals - they have not performed as a unit probably if truthful since George Ford left - I hope and pray that a positive Danny Cipriani can light the touch paper - if nothing else it would be lovely to see Redpath, Joseph, Watson and our wingers get the ball in front of them and in space instead of having to check each time because the pass is either on the floor, over their head, behind them or so slow the entire opposition is there to catch it. Just imagine the damage they could do.

For me personally and it is hard for me to say this as an ex forward - The balance of coaches and key decision makers/strong personalities is way out of balance - Hoops, Hats, Lilley then add Ewels and McNally to the equation - it is far too forward dominated and unless their becomes an equilibrium in this department it will be hard to get it right on the field - to that end I am sure Cips will add his strong personality to even up the scales hopefully with a strong backs coach.

I would be surprised if Cips isn't already training with the lads unofficially and certainly getting upto speed with our limited playbook - so he can hit the road running along with a fully rested Priestland - which would be nice to go from desperate to options.

I'd be very disappointed indeed if Chips hasn't arrived with his own playbook and "suggested" that we run some of the simpler ones as soon as he's started training. That's what we need, not our current coaches explaining in tiny, exhaustive and pointless detail things that have proven to be unsuccessful. Don't employ a conductor and then tell him what to play.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Quote:

joethefanatic

Quote:

Ali1969
Some interesting comments by Hoops - quite a comment to suggest that the team were just "watching the game" - that makes an inference that the team were either not interested or up for the game - surely that is an issue for both coaches and players - Hoops himself has said in the past he is solely responsible for getting the team focussed entirely on the task at hand.
Having said that the players of course will have one eye on next Saturday as did Tigers on Saturday - No disrespect to Wasps at all but they are like us an average side - we made them look a lot better than they actually were - take Umaga - Chiefs showed perfectly last week how to shut down Wasps attacking game - we just do not appear to be able to learn from the evidence presented to us.

Our backs as I have stated before are brilliant individuals - they have not performed as a unit probably if truthful since George Ford left - I hope and pray that a positive Danny Cipriani can light the touch paper - if nothing else it would be lovely to see Redpath, Joseph, Watson and our wingers get the ball in front of them and in space instead of having to check each time because the pass is either on the floor, over their head, behind them or so slow the entire opposition is there to catch it. Just imagine the damage they could do.

For me personally and it is hard for me to say this as an ex forward - The balance of coaches and key decision makers/strong personalities is way out of balance - Hoops, Hats, Lilley then add Ewels and McNally to the equation - it is far too forward dominated and unless their becomes an equilibrium in this department it will be hard to get it right on the field - to that end I am sure Cips will add his strong personality to even up the scales hopefully with a strong backs coach.

I would be surprised if Cips isn't already training with the lads unofficially and certainly getting upto speed with our limited playbook - so he can hit the road running along with a fully rested Priestland - which would be nice to go from desperate to options.

I'd be very disappointed indeed if Chips hasn't arrived with his own playbook and "suggested" that we run some of the simpler ones as soon as he's started training. That's what we need, not our current coaches explaining in tiny, exhaustive and pointless detail things that have proven to be unsuccessful. Don't employ a conductor and then tell him what to play.

Spot on Joe - The only part to play out is to see if Hoops & Co can or will allow themselves be dictated to by a player - he couldn't with Freddie so can the "leopard change it's spots" - I hope so.

The impression I get with Hooper's Bath is that we're learning what's effective months after it's been shown to be effective and then crowbar it into our game plan. It's all a bit reactive.

Take our wide defence. I bet it gets sorted in 3 to 4 weeks when they've analysed tape across the league, in which time we'll have lost a number of games we should have won.

that was a gut wrenching defeat. i left the tv room to put the sunday lunch on - we were 4 points ahead with 8 minutes left, having played excellent rugby for 20 minutes, and i thought yep, 5 points. got back and we'd lost by 10! only bath can do this.
when ewels dragged the team out of the sheds for the ko, blinking in the sharp sunlight, you just knew it was going to be one of those games where the team stumble around for 40 minutes looking as if they've never met each other before. in truth, the moment chudley was chosen to start, the chances of victory were slim to non existent. they did buck up in the second half but only after he and treacle-hands charlie had been replaced.
the backs were absolute rubbish. our superstars watson and joseph are becoming liabilities. watson has turned himself into mike brown, running the ball back at a group of opposition players, then getting pinged for hanging on in the ensuing ruck. there was a time when he used to look for space. when was the last time he actually passed the ball to anyone? joseph has become a speed bump. passing the ball along the bath backline, it rarely gets beyond joseph who tries his little shimmy, slows the whole thing up, and his wingers are left clasping at fresh air. or else he does one of his little kick-throughs, the emergence of which suggests that he no longer has the footwork, speed or self-belief to get beyond defences. as for big joe, what has happened to this once great player? he doesn't deserve a place in the first team on present form. frankly i don't understand why we re-signed him with the likes of goss and ghw queuing up for a game.
the set piece was poor again with henry looking unreliable. do we need to pay big bucks to keep him when we have the boy verden out on loan?
reid was brilliant. the journey he has come on in the last 12 months has been quite astonishing. sam may soon find himself second choice for the 7 shirt. the difference between him and bayliss is marked. bayliss is an overexuberant puppy, charging around brainlessly leaving a wreckage of unnecessary penalties in his wake. reid is a cool headed assassin.
tbh i never thought we had a realistic chance of top four. now it's all about next week. losing beno is a problem. hopefully we will have rhys mac and tdg back. move AW to the wing.

Quote:

Dorset Boy
I'd love Ballsout to share the footage he clearly has from the bath changing room pre-match, because clearly he is either in there amongst it, or has footage, to be so certain there was nothing for Dunn from his fellow players before he hit the pitch.
Any reasonable points BO puts across are undone by the sort of pathetic assertion regarding Dunn that is totally unfounded.

I use my eyes...

How Worcester's team spirit celebrate Nial Annett's 150th:


How Exeter subs welcome the starting team onto the field:


How Bristol subs welcome the starting team onto the field:


How Dunn's team-mates welcome him onto the field:


I'm sure he appreciated the Wasps subs making him a tunnel though. They cheer their team-mates out, we never do.

It's not that huge a deal, but it's very noticeable and points to a culture that's lacking. Small things add up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:26:10:28:45 by ballsout.

You are wrong BO. You have zero idea on this one. You have no idea what goes on in the changing room, or just outside. You can't see where the Bath subs are.
You repeatedly state the Bath subs never make a tunnel even when there is video evidence of them doing so, particularly at home games.

BO I don't think that its at all unusual for players coming out for milestone caps running out before anyone else. Danny Care (300 apps) and Mike Brown (350 apps) ran out in front well before their team mates at the weekend as well. As it was at London Irish Ground their replacements formed the tunnel.

2 mins 30 secs on this video

[www.premiershiprugby.com]

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Incredibly frustrating game. We were poor and inaccurate for 30. Then we were ok 30. Great for 10. Then dreadful for 10. It was so nearly Northampton (away) again with Spencer coming off the bench to guide us home but the Obano card (no complaints from me) completely swung the momentum.

Everything else aside, and agree with the praise for Reid above, our defence is awful. You can't concede 39 points (yes, a couple of dodgy reffing calls but Wasps butchered a few golden chances) and win. The ease with which they made metres against us was astonishing and points against felt almost inevitable. Umaga had a good time but he had so much time and Robson got an armchair ride when in possession. Not sure what it is – The system? Individual errors and getting reads wrong? – but we'd be winning more games (obviously) if we didn't concede the number of points/tries.

It's interesting but, for me, Muir looks like our best player and he's been the least coached. He just plays what's in front of him, runs hard, offloads, hits hard and low, catches high balls and chases everything. It's almost as if his natural ability makes him look good whereas other guys are playing in a system that stunts their natural talent. Watson was pretty useless, unsure when to kick or run, and I'd pop him back on the wing as soon as TdG is fit. A couple of pick and goes aside, Coka looked lost. Strikes me that we need to be giving these talented players more freedom and not relying on the 'structures' and 'processes' we always hear about post-match. Let them play! Bring on D Cip!

(Another) One to (mostly) forget. Roll on next Saturday.

Quote:

Dorset Boy
You repeatedly state the Bath subs never make a tunnel even when there is video evidence of them doing so, particularly at home games.

I think that under COVID protocols is can only be home replacements who form the tunnel? I haven't seen anything otherwise certainly.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

Dorset Boy
You repeatedly state the Bath subs never make a tunnel even when there is video evidence of them doing so, particularly at home games.

I think that under COVID protocols is can only be home replacements who form the tunnel? I haven't seen anything otherwise certainly.

Nope. There's Wuss cheering Annett's 150th out above as one example.

Quote:

bardofavon
the backs were absolute rubbish. our superstars watson and joseph are becoming liabilities. watson has turned himself into mike brown, running the ball back at a group of opposition players, then getting pinged for hanging on in the ensuing ruck. there was a time when he used to look for space. when was the last time he actually passed the ball to anyone? joseph has become a speed bump. passing the ball along the bath backline, it rarely gets beyond joseph who tries his little shimmy, slows the whole thing up, and his wingers are left clasping at fresh air. or else he does one of his little kick-throughs, the emergence of which suggests that he no longer has the footwork, speed or self-belief to get beyond defences. as for big joe, what has happened to this once great player? he doesn't deserve a place in the first team on present form. frankly i don't understand why we re-signed him with the likes of goss and ghw queuing up for a game.

These backs have not suddenly turned into poor or mediocre players. They are all doing their own thing with seemingly no direction. It’s easy to say they are experienced players & should know better but they all have to be working together & training to that end. That is down, surely, to the attack coach & Hooper, recognising that, has recruited David Williams who is a specialist & has an excellent track record in South Africa. I am very hopeful that he will make a real difference.

How many supportive posts on Instagram from his teammates will make up for the lack of tunnel for Tom Dunn's 150th?

I presume there's a ratio that can be applied because I've seen about 8-10 posts.

Quote:

ballsout
Nope. There's Wuss cheering Annett's 150th out above as one example.

Annett hasn't made 150 appearances for Worcester, but what do you think of the Quins example above?

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

I completely agree with moving Watson back to the wing, he just seems to play better there.

Right now I'd rather have Matavesi and Redpath as our 12 and 13, we don't seem to play a game which suits JJ. However that said, Cips is a king when it comes to creating a "corner" in attack, which sounds ideal for JJ to use his pace and footwork to exploit. Time will tell.

Also harsh comments on Bayliss by bardofavon, I personally think hes been excellent this season.

Quote:

by
I completely agree with moving Watson back to the wing, he just seems to play better there.
Right now I'd rather have Matavesi and Redpath as our 12 and 13, we don't seem to play a game which suits JJ.

Nooooooooooooooo!!!

Redpath isn't a 13 (besides he is wasted there) and Josh M certainly isn't one.

JJ's problem for Bath is that he is never put into space and as a result rarely puts the wingers into space. He always has at least 1 defender and has to do his little riverdance thing or a chip over. I'm not sure if its about him not running the hard lines that the likes of Slade does or him not really liking offloads as Radrada, Fekitoa, Slade do but he rarely takes a man (or two) and puts a winger away. Pretty much all of Muir and RMc tries are them beating at least one man rather than just running in and dotting down. Interestingly TDG is the one that does this much better, finds the hole and either scores or offloads / passes to make the assist but possibly because he is coming from deep and isn't man marked as much.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

bardofavon
only bath can do this

That's really not true is it. If we'd done what Tigers did against us last week, the board would have imploded.

Wasps are a very good side who had been in a poor run of form that was going to end at some point,

We scored 4 tries, so we self-evidenly can 'attack' (a pick-and-drive is still an 'attack', particularly if it results in a 'try').

Quote:

TG Kesmo
So Charlie b you wouldn’t have Stuart Faletau Priestland Whacker Mcconachie or de Glanville anywhere near your 23 and Spencer. obano wouldn’t be first choice. They did rotate a bit it nearly came off..
The short turn around does no one favours we should have played Saturday but that’s the telly for you.

Not sure what your point/ question is and in relation to what comments tbh.

I think my point was broadly that recent form for bath has to be a very important factor in selection..

Over the last 3 months players like reid, bayliss, tdg, muir, rmc have been consistently v good. That deserves some recognition.

If you always bring back players like faletau, underhill, watson straight back into first xv and keep them in irrespective of form you will cause a problem in the wider squad. Actually they have all come in and shown good form but I personally would reward reid with a start on sat and have faletau off the bench. If tdg comes back back shows same form I would push watson to fb to ensure his efforts recently are rewarded.

There is a common sense element to this. Obano is miles better than our other looseheads. Stuart is miles better than out other tightheads. Rhys is by far our best available option at 10 when fit. I am not suggesting we play guys in front of them for the sake of it and no one is banging the door down in those positions

I actually thought JJ looked pretty good yesterday. Beat a number of defenders and looked to back himself with ball in hand. He almost got clear a couple of times. It wasn't exactly the JJ of 2014/15 but at least he offered something in attack.

As you say by, hopefully, Cipriani can bring the best out of all these players. His long passes, with big runners threatening close to hold the defence, should suit JJ's lesser-spotted outside break. As I'm mentioned before, mind, I don't see how the Cipriani way of attacking meshes together with our current touchline-to-touchline attacking setup, but let's see.

"I personally would reward reid with a start on sat and have faletau off the bench"

Why not Reid, Faletau, Mercer to start?

My big hope for Cipriani was that he would be the one to make sure we scored when in the opposition 22 - but we seem to have solved that problem with a very effective pick-and-drive game.

It may transpire that Cipriani's value as a canny tactical kicker will be of more value than we imagine.

Agree Matt, Redpath 12, JJ 13, having said that McConnachie, Muir, Gray 7's trio could offer the O/C wing positions. JC had a better game but seems slower to me and his defence is fine if he is in position but he often isn't. You often see him looking around working out where to go. He isn't first choice for me.
At the risk of becoming boring if JJ got the ball via the 10,12 route he would get more time and not be forced to kick all the time.

The return of Priestland might help but he does lie too deep for me. Chudley's pass was noticeably slower the Robson who was firing out long flat passes, the difference when Spencer came on was enormous.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

Optimist
"I personally would reward reid with a start on sat and have faletau off the bench"
Why not Reid, Faletau, Mercer to start?

Fitness allowing Reid, Bayliss, Mercer would be my fist choice, I know that ignores Faletau and Underhill but I genuinely think their physicality is greater and they are better at the dirty work.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

It is quite interesting how the new guys are overshadowing established internationals on a sustained basis. I know he's been playing 15, but look at the difference between Muir and Watson in terms of scoring tries abd involvement in general, when was Watson's last try for Bath? Also that the discussion here and to some extent selection would put Faletau and Underhill on the bench.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

Optimist
"I personally would reward reid with a start on sat and have faletau off the bench"
Why not Reid, Faletau, Mercer to start?

Fitness allowing Reid, Bayliss, Mercer would be my fist choice, I know that ignores Faletau and Underhill but I genuinely think their physicality is greater and they are better at the dirty work.

Nice selection headaches to have.

As I say I think underhill and faletau have done well they have played so it's not as clear cut as picking out of form big names over in form lesser names.

I do just feel like they have the edge in terms of being favoured and you see it in some comments here... 'got to play faletau and underhill when you can to get moneys worth' etc. They are big game players but reid and bayliss can only become that if given the chance.

I think reid and bayliss lead the charge on 'no talent required '. Sounds an insult but is a huge compliment- you just back them to work as hard, or harder than any player in our team or the opposition every time they play.

Quote:

charlieboa
I think reid and bayliss lead the charge on 'no talent required '. Sounds an insult but is a huge compliment- you just back them to work as hard, or harder than any player in our team or the opposition every time they play.

Reid and Bayliss seem to have the magic 'turnover' touch / timing that Will Evans has but also players like Dan Thomas, Tom Willis etc. Is it speed to the breakdown or accurate positioning or bravery or all 3? No idea but they have it.

Evans stats are just ridiculous, shame he is done for the season but I'm sure he will still finish top.

[www.premiershiprugby.com]

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

charlieboa
I think reid and bayliss lead the charge on 'no talent required '. Sounds an insult but is a huge compliment

I absolutely agree with the view that this is very far from an insult. But I also think that Faletau is just an obscenely talented rugby player, and I'd rather play him at outside centre than leave him out of the starting XV.

IMHO Redpath and JJ are by far and away our best centre pairing - in the future young Ojomoh may make a natural replacement for JJ in due course.

I personally think JJ gets a lot of criticism, however before judging let us consider the service he receives.

When he was ripping teams apart he was receiving flat, quick passes in space allowing him to hit the ball at pace - this allowed him to utilise his "Guscott" like change of pace, gliding around players.

What has the poor bloke received since Ford left? Usually man or men & ball - a pass above his head or at his toes or 20 metres behind the gain line - that is of course if the ball got that far.

I think we will be all pleasantly surprised when we have a 10 who plays flat and fizzes the ball out - i.e. an inform Cirpriani. That is my hope anyway.

Quote:

Optimist

Quote:

charlieboa
I think reid and bayliss lead the charge on 'no talent required '. Sounds an insult but is a huge compliment

I absolutely agree with the view that this is very far from an insult. But I also think that Faletau is just an obscenely talented rugby player, and I'd rather play him at outside centre than leave him out of the starting XV.

I love faletau. Starting 8 for the lions for me. Wouldn't be upset to see him coming off the bench fresh after 50 mins though sometimes, with reid and bayliss being given first go.

It's a moot debate realistically for Saturday as 99% certain he will start having been rested.

I think Reid definitely has to start next week. If Faletau is returning that means Underhill or Mercer missing out...

It wouldn't harm Zach to have a bit of a rest - but on pure form/impact on recent matches Zach is probably first name on the teamsheet.

I just think the narrative - him vs Montpelier and his recent performances - means he starts. He can rest the next weekend (same as Ant).

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

TG Kesmo
So Charlie b you wouldn’t have Stuart Faletau Priestland Whacker Mcconachie or de Glanville anywhere near your 23 and Spencer. obano wouldn’t be first choice. They did rotate a bit it nearly came off..
The short turn around does no one favours we should have played Saturday but that’s the telly for you.

Not sure what your point/ question is and in relation to what comments tbh.

I think my point was broadly that recent form for bath has to be a very important factor in selection..

Over the last 3 months players like reid, bayliss, tdg, muir, rmc have been consistently v good. That deserves some recognition.

If you always bring back players like faletau, underhill, watson straight back into first xv and keep them in irrespective of form you will cause a problem in the wider squad. Actually they have all come in and shown good form but I personally would reward reid with a start on sat and have faletau off the bench. If tdg comes back back shows same form I would push watson to fb to ensure his efforts recently are rewarded.

There is a common sense element to this. Obano is miles better than our other looseheads. Stuart is miles better than out other tightheads. Rhys is by far our best available option at 10 when fit. I am not suggesting we play guys in front of them for the sake of it and no one is banging the door down in those positions

My point was that IMHO that wasn’t nearly our best side as you had said, and I pointed out some of the omissions. They were trying to given some a rest as we have a short turn round whilst leaving enough in place to have a chance of winning. With a TMO who looked at offside and blocking the ref didn’t we might have won. If you are interested my “ best” team is very much like BathMatt’s.

Still onward and upward and no I wouldn’t put some players straight back in neither would I claim that our backs don’t play as a team and then recommend putting someone they’ve never played with straight in to the starting team. I like Watson on the wing and not at full back but who else is there? We need a better second 9 and a decent back up outside centre.

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

ballsout
Nope. There's Wuss cheering Annett's 150th out above as one example.

Annett hasn't made 150 appearances for Worcester, but what do you think of the Quins example above?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Quins players formed a tunnel as Brown and Care ran out for their milestone games. I could have added that video to my original post too I guess. So yes, another example of how to do things. Dunn meanwhile, had the Wasps subs as company.

Quote:

ballsout

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

ballsout
Nope. There's Wuss cheering Annett's 150th out above as one example.

Annett hasn't made 150 appearances for Worcester, but what do you think of the Quins example above?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Quins players formed a tunnel as Brown and Care ran out for their milestone games. I could have added that video to my original post too I guess. So yes, another example of how to do things. Dunn meanwhile, had the Wasps subs as company.

Its totally irrelevant point though if its prohibited because of the Covid protocols.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

ballsout

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

ballsout
Nope. There's Wuss cheering Annett's 150th out above as one example.

Annett hasn't made 150 appearances for Worcester, but what do you think of the Quins example above?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Quins players formed a tunnel as Brown and Care ran out for their milestone games. I could have added that video to my original post too I guess. So yes, another example of how to do things. Dunn meanwhile, had the Wasps subs as company.

Its totally irrelevant point though if its prohibited because of the Covid protocols.

It's not prohibited. The videos posted literally show this.

Quote:

TG Kesmo

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

TG Kesmo
So Charlie b you wouldn’t have Stuart Faletau Priestland Whacker Mcconachie or de Glanville anywhere near your 23 and Spencer. obano wouldn’t be first choice. They did rotate a bit it nearly came off..
The short turn around does no one favours we should have played Saturday but that’s the telly for you.

Not sure what your point/ question is and in relation to what comments tbh.

I think my point was broadly that recent form for bath has to be a very important factor in selection..

Over the last 3 months players like reid, bayliss, tdg, muir, rmc have been consistently v good. That deserves some recognition.

If you always bring back players like faletau, underhill, watson straight back into first xv and keep them in irrespective of form you will cause a problem in the wider squad. Actually they have all come in and shown good form but I personally would reward reid with a start on sat and have faletau off the bench. If tdg comes back back shows same form I would push watson to fb to ensure his efforts recently are rewarded.

There is a common sense element to this. Obano is miles better than our other looseheads. Stuart is miles better than out other tightheads. Rhys is by far our best available option at 10 when fit. I am not suggesting we play guys in front of them for the sake of it and no one is banging the door down in those positions

My point was that IMHO that wasn’t nearly our best side as you had said, and I pointed out some of the omissions. They were trying to given some a rest as we have a short turn round whilst leaving enough in place to have a chance of winning. With a TMO who looked at offside and blocking the ref didn’t we might have won. If you are interested my “ best” team is very much like BathMatt’s.

Still onward and upward and no I wouldn’t put some players straight back in neither would I claim that our backs don’t play as a team and then recommend putting someone they’ve never played with straight in to the starting team. I like Watson on the wing and not at full back but who else is there? We need a better second 9 and a decent back up outside centre.

Thanks tgkesmo. I don't think I said it was our best side, just said we aren't missing loads for this time of the season and that it was only really faletau that was rested from the 23? Appreciate beno and spencer were benched when clearly first choice players.

Will take a look at bathmatts team but expect all 3 of us are pretty well aligned.

Totally agree re better back up at 9 and 13. Also prefer watson at wing like you, would be my third choice 15 behind tdg and rmc

Quote:

hasta
I think Reid definitely has to start next week. If Faletau is returning that means Underhill or Mercer missing out...

Underhill coming off after 50 mins with no obvious injury felt like managing his minutes with a view to starting against montpellier?

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

TG Kesmo
So Charlie b you wouldn’t have Stuart Faletau Priestland Whacker Mcconachie or de Glanville anywhere near your 23 and Spencer. obano wouldn’t be first choice. They did rotate a bit it nearly came off..
The short turn around does no one favours we should have played Saturday but that’s the telly for you.

Interesting question. If all players were available mine would (today) be:

15. TDG
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Cameron Redpath
11. Ruaridh McConnochie
10. Priestland
9. Spencer
1. Obano
2. Tom Dunn
3. Will Stuart
4. Josh McNally
5. Stooke
6. Taulupe Faletau
7. Miles Reid
8. Zach Mercer

Sam Underhill, Muir, Bayliss, Ewels, Boyce, Thomas, Walker, Green on bench.

I don't think that Watson is a balanced playmaking 15 in the way that TDG is and I think we have played better as a team with him in. Muir is coming on so fast but is still learning 15s rugby. Sam U is brilliant but Reid is the form Bath player at the moment IMO.

That would be some bench to come on!

Tgkesmo-yep wouldn't differ much here at all.

Some hugely tight calls in backrow and back 3 (that you rarely have to make due to availability). Rest of it largely picks itself.

As you say , and I keep droning on, we lack quality depth in a few positions and I would say we have too much cap tied up in others.

Quote:

by
I'm not too fussed about the result, we rotated players, no 10, unfortunate refereeing and Wasps are a different side with Robson. If anything I'm glad we came away with something.
Reid played brilliantly, can't drop him now. I thought Cokanasiga had a good game too.

It was a red but I don't like it. Concussion is a serious issue but I think we've come a long way with awareness, return to play protocols and pitch side independent doctors, that the long term risk is being managed. Lowering the tackle height, in my uneducated opinion, just moves the head injury risk onto the tackler, whilst also raising the risk of lower limb injuries for the carrier. Worst cases of concussion I've seen whilst playing is 2 tacklers clashing heads, both going low.

When I watched the incident with Obano it was head on the wrong side and too high, resulting in the head to head contact.
Agree if you tackle with your head on the wrong side and go low you are indeed in serious danger of injury (knee to face etc.), but if technique is good (so head on the correct side you come in from) should be fine when going in low so around waist/thighs.
Yes more chance of carrier offloading, but that goes for both teams so not only should be safer for carrier and tackler (if correct technique) but should lead to more jouee.
Obano's technique was poor and unfortunately for him and the team I think cost us the game.

Ruptured ACL for Launchbury, terrible news for the lad. Wasps aren't having too much luck with knee injuries.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]