MULTI COLOURED SWAP? HARLEQUINS v BATH

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:27:09:12:58 by P G Tips.

Can we call in sick and not play?

At beginning of season, being Kent based I had this one lined up to get to. Often do as it is great chance to catch up with old Poly mate who lives in Chingford. Busy life and I just didn't get round to buying tickets

Sure glad I didn't. Instead going to watch Bath City at Ebbsfleet next week. Really looking forward to it

Bath by 30!

The main positive is the game isn't on TV so Bath fans need not suffer watching the inevitable.

Can't decide if I care that much what happens, although I guess come Saturday I might.

I wonder what odds on Bath winning and odds on not winning a game all season !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

This is the game my mate Griff and I always went to,even if we couldn't get to any others and I always enjoyed it hugely, win or lose. Our texts over the last few days suggest neither of us are sad we can't get there this year. Maybe 2022...

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

After watching Sunday's game i cant see there being any improvement and a turnaround in a week and see this as another loss hopefully by not such a wide margin! We need a change of DoR I'm afraid before things improve. Hope I'm wrong.

Quote:

Ian E
After watching Sunday's game i cant see there being any improvement and a turnaround in a week and see this as another loss hopefully by not such a wide margin! We need a change of DoR I'm afraid before things improve. Hope I'm wrong.

Why only the DoR? Surely the way the players are playing is down to the coaches? The DoR needs to change the coaches that are not having an effective influence on the players. Maybe the answer is a start from scratch?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:19:19:46:17 by CoochieCoo.

I agree just keeping the post short👍

If we put the right coaching pegs in the right coaching holes we might not need a change of DoR but conversely it is up to the DoR to realise he got the pegs wrong in the first place.

We will need a new head coach peg with Hats back looking after the forwards and ideally a defence peg too. If the HGV crisis is affecting peg deliveries we have a problem or 2.

My guess is a spirited team performance that will eventually get turned over.

I had hoped that some action would have been taken by now. We are so far off the pace there can only be a repeat of the Sarries debacle on Saturday whoever they pick.

There is no way Hatley would agree to going back to being a forwards/scrum coach. He left England to further his career by taking up a bigger role.

Quote:

malco
There is no way Hatley would agree to going back to being a forwards/scrum coach. He left England to further his career by taking up a bigger role.

Well given he hasn't been very good at it he'll have to deal with what comes his way.

Quote:

woodpecker

Quote:

malco
There is no way Hatley would agree to going back to being a forwards/scrum coach. He left England to further his career by taking up a bigger role.

Well given he hasn't been very good at it he'll have to deal with what comes his way.

Exactly that. He doesn't have to agree though he could if he wished. So the conversation should be along the lines of "Look Hats, it just ain't working for you or the players at Head Coach is it. You gave it your best shot so thank you. And you are a top class forwards/scrum coach. Why don't you back to where your strengths really are and enjoy it?"

And if he doesn't take the offer then terminate the contract lawfully

Toby Booth went from head coach to forwards coach back to head coach.

As did Gustard – left England for a 'bigger' role at Quins, it didn't work out, now he defence coach at Benetton. Rarely are careers linear. Look at Lancaster or John Mitchell, who has been a head coach, a forwards coach, a defence coach.

Lots of coaches move up and down the food chain, depending on their success. Nothing new there and I think Hatley would have a tough time arguing that his stint as head coach has been a success. He's also still young in coaching terms, so no harm in moving back to go forward again at some point in the future.

Didn't he come back to Bath as forwards coach, and only actually ascend to head coach in a pretty low-key way, after which nobody has ever really been able to ascertain whether he or Hooper actually is the head coach?

Quote:

Optimist
Didn't he come back to Bath as forwards coach, and only actually ascend to head coach in a pretty low-key way, after which nobody has ever really been able to ascertain whether he or Hooper actually is the head coach?

I think that maybe opinion it certainly can’t be fact as Hooper has no formal coaching qualifications therefore cannot be a coach at any remunerated level. I think Hooper does the majority of the media interviews but doesn’t seem as involved on the pitch as say the Exeter DoR. The problem which has existed long before Hooper got the role is that DoR can mean different things to different people and different clubs so it was never a clearly defined role. One persons direction is another’s interference.

Don't Panic Mr. Mainwaring Stuart Hooper says he has "absolute belief" the team will turn around their form:

[www.bbc.co.uk]

'Their recent 71-17 defeat at home by Saracens was the most points they have ever conceded in a Premiership match.'
.....
They have also scored just 69 points in all four of their matches this year, the lowest tally of any team in the league.'

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

"Because it's very easy to say it's upwards from here, but you've got to make an upwards decision and changes to allow that to be the case."

Eh?!

Quite funny to see those stats you highlighted, Matt, and know that Saracens scored more against us in 1 match than we have in 4. I say, funny... I mean, laugh or you'd cry funny.

Hooper says "I'm very confident that the underlying issues are not there“.

As suspected he’s in total denial and has just brushed last Sunday under the carpet.

Surely someone at the club must seethe fundamental problems. Perhaps the senior players should take charge and go direct to Bruce Craig for a solution.

I hate the football way but in this case I really don't understand what the owners/board are waiting for. Hooper has to go. The fans have lost all confidence in him, it looks like the players have too by that performance last week.

Quins will rub salt into our wounds come this weekend, just a question of how many.

Really hope our players revolt and sort it out themselves.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Hooper says "I'm very confident that the underlying issues are not there“.
As suspected he’s in total denial and has just brushed last Sunday under the carpet.

Surely someone at the club must seethe fundamental problems. Perhaps the senior players should take charge and go direct to Bruce Craig for a solution.

Interesting spellchecker concatenation "must seethe fundamental problems"

Quote:

Mike the Taxi

Quote:

OutsideBath
Hooper says "I'm very confident that the underlying issues are not there“.
As suspected he’s in total denial and has just brushed last Sunday under the carpet.

Surely someone at the club must seethe fundamental problems. Perhaps the senior players should take charge and go direct to Bruce Craig for a solution.

Interesting spellchecker concatenation "must seethe fundamental problems"

Ah the old spell checker problem.

Be honest what was he going to say if he is still in a job. “ I have no confidence whatsoever in this team” ……Really it was never going to be anything but what he said.
Whether you think he should still be in a job is a different question.
If the problems are as bad as many think they are or like Austin Healy said after the Bristol game “Bath are nearly there they will click soon” neither is likely to be fixed in a week.
All we can do is hope for some better defence and more clinical execution in attack. Then maybe we won’t see a repeat of Sunday.

Hoops has uttered the magic words " he has the backing of the team's owner Bruce Craig" - He will be gone by Monday morning - How many times have we heard that - an owner supporting a manager and then "Bang" gone.

Why even mention "Underlying Issues" if it weren't a thing?

That article for me confirms he is in denial - If Hoops seriously thinks this was just one bad result - he is unfortunately deluded - Sale game - We were blown away first half. Sale took their foot off the gas and allowed us back in. Newcastle at home - Falcons should have come away with a try bonus point - Destroyed up front - Bristol (2 worst teams in the league) - Destroyed up front. Saracens - Destroyed all over the pitch and then some. So to try and suggest the Sarries result is one bad game is quite frankly disingenuous to all Bath Rugby fans.

"The lads will be desperate to get out on the field."

Which field?

Quote:

woodpecker
"The lads will be desperate to get out on the field."
Which field?

I think he means the Quins players as I’m betting they can’t wait to play Bath, will be a good training runout for them.

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

woodpecker
"The lads will be desperate to get out on the field."
Which field?

I think he means the Quins players as I’m betting they can’t wait to play Bath, will be a good training runout for them.

Bath are 6:1 with Paddy Power I might put a quid on.

Luckily its not on TV.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:20:17:06:00 by woodpecker.

For me Stuart Hoopers comments have put his job on the line, just what is he going to say after probably another heavy loss at Quins ? Here

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

"Lads, it's Bath".

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
For me Stuart Hoopers comments have put his job on the line, just what is he going to say after probably another heavy loss at Quins ? Here

As long as they concede fewer than 70 points then he's safe - they would indeed be improving their D. It's upwards from here, and they have trained well all week.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
For me Stuart Hoopers comments have put his job on the line, just what is he going to say after probably another heavy loss at Quins ? Here

As long as they concede fewer than 70 points then he's safe - they would indeed be improving their D. It's upwards from here, and they have trained well all week.

Maybe rugby should be a bit more like gymnastics or diving where points could be derived partly on the pitch result, maybe 60% and 40% could be on three judges scoring the training?

Words are completely meaningless aren't they at this stage, let's see what happens at game time the next few weeks.

I personally can see three fairly heavy defeats to quins, wasps and leic but you never know.....

Quote:

BathMatt53
It's upwards from here, and they have trained well all week.

Maybe a change…..they all had great sessions with the Sports Performance Psychologist!

There is much more of this interview with Hooper on RugbyPass:

[www.rugbypass.com]

Also, it seems Bruce and Tarquin are trying to be very supportive and it's good to hear of challenge between the coaches, coaches & players and between players.

Hooper is the clubs longterm solution. He needs to hold his coaching team to account. We saw it with Dempsey in the off season, he wasn't performing as a coach and we replaced him. Hooper needs to be as decisive with Hatley, Charteris and Lilley - if they cannot their areas of the game under control.

First thing for me is getting our set piece to be more consistent and competitive - both have been really poor. Restarts as well have not gone well either.

Tbf you make a good point about dempsey. Seved his contract, widely regarded as a move that hadn't worked at all, contract not renewed and replaced by a more experienced coach. Jury out but probably a wise move.

If he has the guts to sort out the remaining mess then fair play. The risk is you lose hats if you try to get him into a 'lesser' role. Path of least resistance is leave hats as head coach, get him specialising in scrum/maul, bring in a defence specialist like diamond (who did that role at sale latterly I think).

Other options require Bruce and tarquin to take action and that should only be to remove hoops imho (rather than force coaching changes on hoops thus totally undermining him)

But how long is he given to sort things out? I think it runs deeper than the coaches, "oh never mind,maybe next week things will click"..

Quote:

Kaapstad
But how long is he given to sort things out? I think it runs deeper than the coaches, "oh never mind,maybe next week things will click"..

Yep, if the feeling is hooper is driving a cr*p culture then he needs to go.

Williams has come in and early signs are its not enough to turn things around so definitely evidence to suggest its gone beyond tinkering with coaches.

Again though we come back to whether that is hoops or hats.

There are things right at the club- beechen link up, decent academy, those guys getting into the firsts.....it is there things go horribly wrong. Tbf injury rates/absence seem much better over last few years so again someone deserves some credit. Been mixed bag on recruitment but likes of stuart, mcnally, spencer, redpath, rmc, muir etc I would say have broadly been successes.

I have no idea what needs to happen but something does....

I think with the no relegation for the next few seasons the club have possibly the only opportunity they will get to appoint a DOR from within and back that man to the end - their choice was Hooper. It goes against everything that went before it for Bath Rugby, with flying in all sorts of DORs and Head Coaches with a vast array of experience, looking for that magic bullet.

In Hooper they decided he would learn his trade under Blackadder, until the time was right. Blackadder though left early and rightly or wrongly the club decided now was the time to give the reigns to Hooper.

Hooper was lucky to turn around the 19/20 season to finish 4th and probably lucky to finish 7th last year.

So here we sit, with Hooper having possibly the only 'free shot' you will get in the premiership to find your feet and build your team without fear of relegation.

To part with Hooper now, will be to roll the dice yet again. How many times have we rolled those dice since the game turned professional?

Hooper is going to make mistakes, it is inevitable. He is learning his trade (whether we agree he should be at Bath or not). One of the biggest things he will need to learn is when does his loyalty to his coaching team become blinded - when to recognise loyalty and friendships need to be put to one side for the sake of the team. I'm not saying that it is now and today is that day. If his coaching team is failing to be innovative and failing to get the players performing or working to their planned structure, then he needs to make the call to change the team.

We have a few seasons to get this right. It isn't going to happen over night. We have decided to change our game plan this season and we are being forced to implement that with Academy half backs.

Now this is where I think Hooper is culpable. Playing Will Chudley ahead of Green or Fox last year, seems madness now and head-scratching at the time. Fox this weekend, was so far out of his depth (not helped by a retreating pack and fly half that wanted to run the ball at every opportunity). Yet, Fox has had no premiership experience until this season - and that is on Hooper and Hatley. Where was the forward planning?

I could go on. Locks for example.

The point is, Hooper is here, he is cutting his teeth in the most competitive league in the world. He is making mistakes and is finding making a vision work in practice is much harder than drawing that vision up on paper.

For me, Hooper would benefit from guidance of an experienced person. I'd like to see a consultant come in and look at the set up and suggest improvements and changes and give advice based on their experience - a Cheika, a Lancaster, even a Diamond. Not someone that comes in and undermines Hooper and says "nah, this is the way you should be playing, let's rip it all up!", but someone that will add to what is here and with a trained eye help Hooper understand where we can change for the better.

We have a few seasons to develop our squad, our coaching, our processes without the fear of being cut from the premiership. I hope we don't waste it, but if this works, we could come out the other side much stronger for this period in our history.

What we now need to see as from Hooper is that he can learn from his mistakes and that he can see clearly where action from his is required to make the changes.

What we need to hear is an honest explanation, recognition of the specific issues and credible evidence of a plan to resolve them. That's what has been really missing these last few seasons. If you can't face the problems with honesty you have no hope of resolving them. All we get are more empty platitudes about working hard in training, the team all trusting each other, learning lessons and increasing intensity for the next match. The same empty words, rinsed and repeated, week in, week out, for the last few years. And in reality nothing meaningfully changes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:20:22:31:05 by malco.

Bathsalmon

Hooper is the clubs longterm solution.

What is it about this person that make you belive that? Apart from the positive comments about him as a captain etc. Nothing I have ever seen about him makes me think that.

Im starting to question why I bother.

Quote:

woodpecker
Bathsalmon
Hooper is the clubs longterm solution.

What is it about this person that make you belive that? Apart from the positive comments about him as a captain etc. Nothing I have ever seen about him makes me think that.

Im starting to question why I bother.

I wasn't saying he is "my" longterm solution choice, but it is obvious that the club have spent a long time developing him since he finished playing. He's shadowed Todd and Tabai for a while and then was given the reigns earlier than planned. I am just iterating that the club are too invested in him to just ditch him just yet. It is clearly their plan to develop a core of the club that is instilled with Bath history - the development of our academy and schools programme, bringing through home grown coaches and even a home grown DOR. This doesn't speak to me as a project you ditch after 1 or 2 seasons of mediocrity.

We are trying to build a core that is deeply connected to the city (much in the same way as the Exeters or Leinsters of the world do). Just look at how the Baileys and Ojomohs (and even Staddons) have performed when needed from the academy, it shows the pathway has made progress. We couldn't have relied on academy prospects as much in previous years. The problem is, it's going to take time for this to work and we supporter's have had to put up with a lot of dross over the years, so understandably get frustrated with the results when the team are not showing up to the sum of their parts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:21:09:37:07 by BathSalmon.

Quote:

BathSalmon
I think with the no relegation for the next few seasons the club have possibly the only opportunity they will get to appoint a DOR from within and back that man to the end - their choice was Hooper.
.......

So here we sit, with Hooper having possibly the only 'free shot' you will get in the premiership to find your feet and build your team without fear of relegation.

Unfortunately to watch this 'free shot' is about £70 an adult ticket in a decent position. On the plus side at least last week we got to see a point for every £ spent. Its not even about being a 'fan' it about whether you are happy to follow the game on TV or on the radio instead of shelling out. I know that the ground has been full on a Covid / Cipriani / short memory rebound, but supporters will only throw their hard earned at it for so long IMO.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

I have always thought 5/6 day turnaround was a big disadvantage but maybe its better this week to get back on the horse ASAP.

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

BathSalmon
I think with the no relegation for the next few seasons the club have possibly the only opportunity they will get to appoint a DOR from within and back that man to the end - their choice was Hooper.
.......

So here we sit, with Hooper having possibly the only 'free shot' you will get in the premiership to find your feet and build your team without fear of relegation.

Unfortunately to watch this 'free shot' is about £70 an adult ticket in a decent position. On the plus side at least last week we got to see a point for every £ spent. Its not even about being a 'fan' it about whether you are happy to follow the game on TV or on the radio instead of shelling out. I know that the ground has been full on a Covid / Cipriani / short memory rebound, but supporters will only throw their hard earned at it for so long IMO.

Sadly you are right. I spent an extortionate amount of money for 1 adult and 1 child season ticket this year, to sit uncovered on one of the 22's. Think us fans are feeling the pinch while Premiership clubs try to come to terms with their unsustainable financial models.

But this weekend (and I found it very telling) where normally I'm screaming and shouting at the team to try and urge them on, I just sat mostly taking in how awesome Saracens were and how impressive it was to see a side that is completely comfortable with its plan and players knowing their roles.

So much of Saracens play went through the Vunipola brothers and we couldn't match them physically.

I dont regret the season ticket choice, I love rugby and am not so blinded that I cannot appreciate the quality on show from the opposition.

Ruaridh made a good point today; we made it into their 22 9 times on the weekend (the 3 previous teams only made it into the 22 18 times in total), so we must be doing something right. Strangely, I don't think it was the worst performance I've ever seen from Bath, Saracens were just awesome.

It reminded me of the Bath vs Tigers semi in 2015 - didn't we have 7 opportunities in their red zone and every one ended in a try? I guess sometimes its just not your day and sometimes everything goes right, but of course Sarries were hugely better anyway last weekend.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

In light of the last game and where team moral must be right now. What would constitute the MINIMUM 'good' result against the champions?

A ) win at all costs
B ) don't concede more that 30 points
C ) score 4 tries
D ) losing bonus point but in a competitive game
E ) no more injuries
F ) 100% set piece conversion

Or combination of the above, e.g. B + C



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:21:10:50:34 by BathSalmon.

"Ruaridh made a good point today; we made it into their 22 9 times on the weekend (the 3 previous teams only made it into the 22 18 times in total)"

I really don't know whether that stat gives me scope for optimism or despair

Like malco says it does feel like groundhog day with the same outcomes week on week. Failure to convert enough red zone opportunities, malfunctioning set piece and too often what looks like soft defence conceding tries

Like I said earlier, it isn't just honesty with the problems that is required but honesty with selves as to whether they really have the ability and/or capacity to put right and quickly

Quote:

BathSalmon
Ruaridh made a good point today; we made it into their 22 9 times on the weekend (the 3 previous teams only made it into the 22 18 times in total), so we must be doing something right. Strangely, I don't think it was the worst performance I've ever seen from Bath, Saracens were just awesome.

I noted that comment as well which for me demonstrates the total lack of any form of attacking plan as we seemed to just keep bashing into the Saracens defence without any variation. Saracens on the other hand attacked in a coherent manner with different players and inevitably broke through our "defence".

Interesting point. Our attacking game has shown signs of life but is still so wildly inconsistent.

On the one hand, I was pleased, as versus a top team we were putting them under pressure and making line breaks. On the other, this is EXACTLY what we were promised would be different this season and we’d learned our lessons from Montpellier at home last season. In the oppo 22, we need points and that doesn’t come from one out runners into Itoje and Earl. Madness.

Our defence is just so poor. It felt inevitable that every time Sarries got close to our line they’d score (and they did). For me, most concerning was how it felt like there was a lack of desire to defend, which should be fatal for a coaching team, especially those motivating and structuring the defence.

In defence the offload killed us pretty much, they always seemed to have (at least) one player in support able to take it. I put this down to them being physically dominant and players like Billy and Maro sucking in defenders as well as the general hard work of players like Malins to get in position when Cips throws a floater (that sounds as bad as it was).

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

As a West Ham supporter there was a time when we were really struggling & facing relegation but one Sam Allardice was appointed & put the whole emphasis on the defence. We would go to top 6 sides & much to their annoyance we would “park the bus” & come away with a draw or even a win. We then gained confidence from good results & adopted a freer style & climbed up the league. I’m not sure if those tactics can be applied in rugby but something very different needs to be done to get us out of this mess. Just carrying on in the same way will not work.

Would you select the same 23 again with McC in for the injured Watson or do you rotate heavily looking for a lift from players who haven't had an opportunity yet?

Quote:

Grumpy_Uncle _Iroh
Would you select the same 23 again with McC in for the injured Watson or do you rotate heavily looking for a lift from players who haven't had an opportunity yet?

My view is that you go away, hammer the players in training and then select a 23 on Thursday evening that consists of the players who have shown most in training.

But that's not what will have happened. They will have selected on Tuesday morning and then run training sessions through the week that are based on that selection.

I think that is fundamentally wrong.

Quote:

malco

Quote:

Grumpy_Uncle _Iroh
Would you select the same 23 again with McC in for the injured Watson or do you rotate heavily looking for a lift from players who haven't had an opportunity yet?

My view is that you go away, hammer the players in training and then select a 23 on Thursday evening that consists of the players who have shown most in training.

But that's not what will have happened. They will have selected on Tuesday morning and then run training sessions through the week that are based on that selection.

I think that is fundamentally wrong.

To play devils advocate one could argue that you're not allowing combinations to flourish if you're constantly swapping and changing players throughout the training session.

It depends on the position. I quite like having the 2 sets of front rows training as a unit. The hooker with his jumpers. The half backs. The back row and back three and centres could be a bit more nebulous and picked on training form.

Based on your response I suppose you fall into the 'rotate' camp.

Quote:

malco
They will have selected on Tuesday morning and then run training sessions through the week that are based on that selection

I don't really mind that approach. After all, there has to be an advantage in preparing as an actual team. What would concern me more is if a few heads don't roll from Saturday. Other than Cipriani, I'm not sure who though.

In some ways, it's a bit like the argument about yellow-carding props for not being as good as their opposite number. The biggest problem was just that nobody was as good as their opposite number, and the cumulative effect of that was enormous.

When you go back through the respective line-ups - even before the game, you'd only have definitely picked Watson and Underhill over their opposite number.

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Interesting point. Our attacking game has shown signs of life but is still so wildly inconsistent.
On the one hand, I was pleased, as versus a top team we were putting them under pressure and making line breaks. On the other, this is EXACTLY what we were promised would be different this season and we’d learned our lessons from Montpellier at home last season. In the oppo 22, we need points and that doesn’t come from one out runners into Itoje and Earl. Madness.

Our defence is just so poor. It felt inevitable that every time Sarries got close to our line they’d score (and they did).

I think what separates our attack from those of Sarries, Quins etc is that we can get to the 22, but once there we lack any kind of incisive edge, instead preferring one-out runners until it's spilled or we chuck it wide and it gets knocked-on or turned over.

There doesn't seem to be any plan to manipulate the defence in the 22 at all, and so it ends up being flashes of individual brilliance that get us scores instead, which is simply unsustainable for 80 mins.

Some good points made especially concerning Hoops being the long term messiah.

My issues are as follows:

1. This is Hoopers 3rd season and there has been no improvement whatsoever and in general we have seen a deterioration in performance.

2. This season in particular our much vaunted pack has been taken to the cleaners in every match despite having the same personnel being present from previous seasons bar Stooke, Thomas and Walker all of whom were not 1st choice and Mercer who was not renowned as a mighty scrummager.

2. Basic Skills - Sunday proved once again put Bath under pressure they will revert to trait by dropping the ball, passing poorly or falling off tackles.

4. This is the real key one for me - The Culture - I think someone .made mention elsewhere that when Sarries conceded a try Billy V was lambasting one of his players - we conceded 10.and not one sign of passion, embarrassment or hurt. Even our true Blue stars such as Dunn has become non existant almost as if the life has been sucked out of him and surprise, surprise this has coincided with his dip in form.

For all those reasons above the problems run deep and that is why I think personally Hoops needs to either go or step aside and continue with his learning.

After all Hoops himself has said "The Buck stops with me!"

Quote:

Ali1969
Some good points made especially concerning Hoops being the long term messiah.
My issues are as follows:

1. This is Hoopers 3rd season and there has been no improvement whatsoever and in general we have seen a deterioration in performance.

2. This season in particular our much vaunted pack has been taken to the cleaners in every match despite having the same personnel being present from previous seasons bar Stooke, Thomas and Walker all of whom were not 1st choice and Mercer who was not renowned as a mighty scrummager.

2. Basic Skills - Sunday proved once again put Bath under pressure they will revert to trait by dropping the ball, passing poorly or falling off tackles.

4. This is the real key one for me - The Culture - I think someone .made mention elsewhere that when Sarries conceded a try Billy V was lambasting one of his players - we conceded 10.and not one sign of passion, embarrassment or hurt. Even our true Blue stars such as Dunn has become non existant almost as if the life has been sucked out of him and surprise, surprise this has coincided with his dip in form.

For all those reasons above the problems run deep and that is why I think personally Hoops needs to either go or step aside and continue with his learning.

After all Hoops himself has said "The Buck stops with me!"

Think you've nailed it there.

Quote:

Bath Hammer
As a West Ham supporter there was a time when we were really struggling & facing relegation but one Sam Allardice was appointed & put the whole emphasis on the defence. We would go to top 6 sides & much to their annoyance we would “park the bus” & come away with a draw or even a win. We then gained confidence from good results & adopted a freer style & climbed up the league. I’m not sure if those tactics can be applied in rugby but something very different needs to be done to get us out of this mess. Just carrying on in the same way will not work.

This is what I'd like as a fan. Acknowledge the flaws and build from a good foundation of boring rugby that works. Our team sheet isn't really that good, even on paper IMO. We may a few big names but far too many fringe players or young unproven guys, when you start looking at the teams the top 4 are putting out every weekend, I think the difference is vast.

As I said in another thread, I think Hoopers got a big list of ambitions such as playing attractive rugby, or having a home grown squad, and hes letting the basics of kicking, set piece and defence fall to wayside. I say that as someone who wants the club to stick with Hooper and Hats.

Regarding the stat about making it into Sarries 22 9 times, I think we're the lowest scoring team in the league.

This thing about Hooper being groomed and learning his trade from those in charge before being handed the reins... he's "learned his trade" from people who achieved absolutely nothing while they were here. Let's not forget that.

The long and short of it is that other teams turn things around within a couple of seasons. We have taken at least a decade and there are still no signs of any improvement. There really aren't. None at all.

I guess Katie Warriner has had her work cutout for her this week!

Club bio: "She is responsible for working with the coaches and playing group to develop individual and collective strategies and skill sets to support high-performance outcomes."

I had high hopes for her impact. I guess it's another one for the pile of 'wait and see if it comes good'.

Quote:

BathSalmon
I guess Katie Warriner has had her work cutout for her this week!
Club bio: "She is responsible for working with the coaches and playing group to develop individual and collective strategies and skill sets to support high-performance outcomes."

I had high hopes for her impact. I guess it's another one for the pile of 'wait and see if it comes good'.

It’s not evident that her presence has produced any improvement whatsoever!

Quote:

BathSalmon
I guess Katie Warriner has had her work cutout for her this week!
Club bio: "She is responsible for working with the coaches and playing group to develop individual and collective strategies and skill sets to support high-performance outcomes."

I had high hopes for her impact. I guess it's another one for the pile of 'wait and see if it comes good'.

June 2018:

Katie’s appointment is part of Bath Rugby’s long-term plan for developing the right support structures to deliver successful and consistent performances in both domestic and European rugby.

Notice they said that Bath has a 'long term' plan so let's not be too impatient! I looked up long term so I could see how long it would actually be and the definition was 'occurring over or relating to a long period of time' so hopefully that puts a few minds at rest in relation to the achievement of targets...ahem.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

I had the pleasure of sessions with a published sports psychologist, was a bit hesitant to start with as I viewed it as pink and fluffy nonsense initially. He had an instant positive impact on my golf so clearly was the right person. Is Katie Warrener really the right person for Bath? The lack of results suggest not.

I have been lucky to get to know Katie over the last year. She is 100% the right person for the job.

I hope Katie or someone gets through to them.

As for a long-term plan, Bath has two seasons with no relegation in the background.

The problem with no relegation is however badly a club performs- so what? There is nothing to worry about.

Apart from getting into the European competitions or international call-ups, life will just meander along for the players...

Unless the owner and/or advertisers get involved little will change because it won't have to.

Supporters not turning up or season tickets not being renewed may be the only wake-up call for those writing the PR soundbites? ST holders dropping away is however unlikely because they will have paid quite a bit of money as well as spent however many seasons shouting for "their" team.

Hooper's statements were just PR guff. One peach was a bizarre line about working on defence and attack!

But as long as he's wheeled out on cue with something to say-job done-right?

Sports psychologists are not a new thing, they were even around in my playing days - however it is a 2 way street - a psychologist can only put ideas and theoretical structures out there.

Katie will I am sure promote positive mental attitude - that means nothing if the players do not have faith in the direction they are being taken - Katie cannot make the players passionate and hungry for success - this definitely comes from the DoR/Coaches and their road map for the future and therein the players - she might suggest some tools to assist but this 100% will come from the players and coaches.

So I would personally believe the problem is not with Katie - the issues for me still centres around the running and direction from the coaches/DoR or even above that.

Quote:

OutsideBath
I had the pleasure of sessions with a published sports psychologist, was a bit hesitant to start with as I viewed it as pink and fluffy nonsense initially. He had an instant positive impact on my golf so clearly was the right person. Is Katie Warrener really the right person for Bath? The lack of results suggest not.

I think you can see her influence in what RMc, McNally and Ewels are saying in the new Unseen video

Team Up:

Bath Rugby side to play Harlequins

15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Semesa Rokoduguni, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Clark, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Joe Simpson; 1 Beno Obano, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Josh McNally, 5 Charlie Ewels ©, 6 Tom Ellis, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Jaco Coetzee

Replacements

16 Tom Dunn 17 Lewis Boyce, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Mike Williams, 20 Richard de Carpentier, 21 Ollie Fox, 22 Danny Cipriani, 23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb

PG

No Max Ojomoh?

Jesus wept. They take the few bright sparks we had from last weekend and drop them entirely - Mojo and Muir.

Pleased to see RMac back in the team and no-one can doubt Roko's commitment, but a bit worried he might be shown up in defence in an all-court chuck it around game like Quins like to play.

Quote:

P G Tips
Team Up:
Bath Rugby side to play Harlequins

15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Semesa Rokoduguni, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Clark, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Joe Simpson; 1 Beno Obano, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Josh McNally, 5 Charlie Ewels ©, 6 Tom Ellis, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Jaco Coetzee

Replacements

16 Tom Dunn 17 Lewis Boyce, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Mike Williams, 20 Richard de Carpentier, 21 Ollie Fox, 22 Danny Cipriani, 23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb

PG

I'm a lot happier with this but sorry to see Fox benched. Coetzee will give us a lot more go forward. Bailey deserves to play and I think Max Clark will hit harder in midfield than Ojomoh, who has nothing to be ashamed of and has shown that he is going to be a major fixture for us in the years ahead. I'm surprised to see de Carpentier on the bench and both Bayliss and Reid out of the squad completely and very surprised to see The Horse apparently put out to pasture for the week.

Apparently Bayliss and Muir have minor injuries so were rested, and Reid is still out from his failed HIA last weekend.

Surprised that Mojo isn't there, but Clark was playing well at the end of last season, so will be interesting to see how he goes.

The Quins back 3 seem to tear teams apart on the counter, with ease. Concerned to see Roko there for this game.. In all honestly the selection doesn't inspire me with much confidence..

Muir and Bayliss both carrying soft tissue injuries apparently.

Yes, Bayliss, Reid and Muir all out through injury - details on Offy.

PG

Quote:

P G Tips
Yes, Bayliss, Reid and Muir all out through injury - details on Offy.
PG

I smell a rat.

So far as I can tell The Horse doesn't have any "soft tissue".

I guess they are not referring to his hooves malco!

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Quote:

malco
I'm a lot happier with this but sorry to see Fox benched. Coetzee will give us a lot more go forward. Bailey deserves to play and I think Max Clark will hit harder in midfield than Ojomoh, who has nothing to be ashamed of and has shown that he is going to be a major fixture for us in the years ahead. I'm surprised to see de Carpentier on the bench and both Bayliss and Reid out of the squad completely and very surprised to see The Horse apparently put out to pasture for the week.

Yes I am also content. Max Clarke is more equipped to deal with André Esterhuizen I think. Fox has played a lot and Joe Simpson is another wiley old 9 to counter Care. Good to see Coetzee in the team. Think I would probably have started GHW over Roko for the reason given but not too bothered.

With Scotland playing Tonga on Tonga Saturday 30 October I assumed that Bayliss is already up there with them? [Edit: have just seen offy]

Reid went off with a head knock early in the game on Sunday so presume its related to that (less than 7 days?) [Edit: have just seen offy]

COYB!!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:22:12:19:20 by BathMatt53.

A real mix and match. Some good (like the balance of the back row, like Simpson starting cos why not, like Bailey starting) and some bad (the injuries, the bench looks Championship quality).

Against a settled, confident Harlequins team at home, I can see nothing but a thumping. Dombrandt to have a field day, as he's another of those players who seems to go well against us.

Just hope we can better last week's 54 point deficit... or do I? I'm just not sure anymore.

I think Coetzee will be specifically tasked with dealing with Dombrandt and I imagine that Underhill will spend the whole match sharing Marcus Smith's boots with him. I'm less concerned about us getting battered in the front five than last week but more worried about Esterhuizen punching holes in the midfield and their back three capitalising on it.

I think it less important who was picked this week than what those picked do on the pitch. They need to show a reaction to what happened last week, defend better and convert more pressure into points. I doubt we are going to win, so it is all about the performance.
That said, and now I've had time to reflect, I think what happened last week was more to do with Sarries than it was to do with us. Someone was going to get the perfect Sarries performance this season, and unfortunately it was us.

Harlequins Starting XV
1. Joe Marler
2. Jack Walker
3. Will Collier
4. Matt Symons
5. Dino Lamb
6. James Chisholm
7. Tom Lawday
8. Alex Dombrandt – Captain
9. Danny Care
10. Marcus Smith
11. Cadan Murley
12. Andre Esterhuizen
13. Joe Marchant
14. Louis Lynagh
15. Tyrone Green

Impact Players
16. Sam Riley
17. Santiago Garcia Botta
18. Simon Kerrod
19. Hugh Tizard
20. Luke Wallace
21. Scott Steele
22. Huw Jones
23. Luke Northmore

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quins odds for the win have shortened from 1/8 to 2/11 in the last hour since the teams were published; Bath a minor change from 7/1 to 13/2 to win. [www.oddschecker.com]

I wonder if Dunn is lamenting the fact his England career appears to be behind him given Dolly's inclusion for the AI's. EJ has messed with more GP player heads in his time as England coach than any predecessor and that [O/T] amongst other reasons is why I am glad he is standing down in 2yr.

I don't think it matters who we put out tbh, player confidence must be shot to pieces after Sarries, the only question for me is what is an acceptable margin of loss, 10 or 20 points?

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Their 8, 9, 10, 12 axis screams experience, authority and energy.

Ours is made up of a half-fit debutant, a guy who has been at the club 10 days, a promising youngster with 10 starts under his belt, and an in and out of form and fitness outside centre making his first start of the season.

I promise you, I used to be an optimist.

On paper again I think we have a very good team - We did last week, the week before and so on but unfortunately the game is not played on paper.

This is going to sound kind of hypocritical almost crazy - as a die hard Bath fan half of me of course wants us to win but half of me kind of hope's we don't win or lose by a point - Crazy I know but if that happens the issues which run clearly so deep in our club will be just swept away as if they were never there and a week, month or 2 months later they will re-appear the cycle will just start all over again.

I want a side I can be proud of - one that gives it all and if that is not good enough then well be it - I haven't seen a Bath side like that since this Hoops & Co have been in charge.

One of my best mates is a Quin fan and he text me just now and said - "You might have a chance on this one - our lads will be so confident after seeing your performances perhaps too confident"

I am sure Tabai Matson and Jack Walker will be up for the game.

Quote:

malco

Quote:

P G Tips
Yes, Bayliss, Reid and Muir all out through injury - details on Offy.
PG

I smell a rat.

So far as I can tell The Horse doesn't have any "soft tissue".

What are you implying malco? That is a pretty strong allegation

Quote:

gaz59

Quote:

malco

Quote:

P G Tips
Yes, Bayliss, Reid and Muir all out through injury - details on Offy.
PG

I smell a rat.

So far as I can tell The Horse doesn't have any "soft tissue".

What are you implying malco? That is a pretty strong allegation

It was an attempt at humour Gaz. As my niece always reminds me... if you have to explain it, it's not funny.

Quote:

malco

Quote:

gaz59

Quote:

malco

Quote:

P G Tips
Yes, Bayliss, Reid and Muir all out through injury - details on Offy.
PG

I smell a rat.

So far as I can tell The Horse doesn't have any "soft tissue".

What are you implying malco? That is a pretty strong allegation

It was an attempt at humour Gaz. As my niece always reminds me... if you have to explain it, it's not funny.

I took it as a compliment to him

Quote:

malco

Quote:

P G Tips
Team Up:
Bath Rugby side to play Harlequins

15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Semesa Rokoduguni, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Clark, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Joe Simpson; 1 Beno Obano, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Josh McNally, 5 Charlie Ewels ©, 6 Tom Ellis, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Jaco Coetzee

Replacements

16 Tom Dunn 17 Lewis Boyce, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Mike Williams, 20 Richard de Carpentier, 21 Ollie Fox, 22 Danny Cipriani, 23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb

PG

I'm a lot happier with this but sorry to see Fox benched. Coetzee will give us a lot more go forward. Bailey deserves to play and I think Max Clark will hit harder in midfield than Ojomoh, who has nothing to be ashamed of and has shown that he is going to be a major fixture for us in the years ahead.

Fox was noticeably slower getting the ball away from breakdown than his opposite Saracens number. I guess you could counter to say that every BBW was poor compared to his opposite number but if there is one thing Simpson brings it is speed of pass and sniping around the fringe of the breakdown. That with Coetzee at 8 might just give us some quicker ball for OB to work with

Stuart Hooper saying that we have Fox and Cipriani on the bench who 'have done fantastically well'. Cipriani was HIA'ed off in the first one and then got smashed last week. There have been all losses on the trot. If that's fantastically well then what would have been average (or even bad). I turned off at that point, just more noise IMO (yes I know he has to say that). The only thing that will get me back into watching this stuff is when the results on the pitch improve.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Yes Gaz I noticed that Fox was significantly slower than his earlier matches.........which of course you and I know just causes problems further down the backs.

I wonder why because in the first three games he looked very sharp.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE be very alert for the Danny Care special, fast tap and go from a penalty. Do not let him have the ball if possible until we have lined up................I will be so depressed if we allow him the chance to do what he is very good at!

Team change to be announced shortly: JJ is out, Max Ojomoh to start.

Raging Bull are you a mole?

HOP

More of a badger!

Quote:

BathMatt53
Stuart Hooper saying that we have Fox and Cipriani on the bench who 'have done fantastically well'. Cipriani was HIA'ed off in the first one and then got smashed last week. There have been all losses on the trot. If that's fantastically well then what would have been average (or even bad). I turned off at that point, just more noise IMO (yes I know he has to say that). The only thing that will get me back into watching this stuff is when the results on the pitch improve.

+ 1

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

BathMatt53
Stuart Hooper saying that we have Fox and Cipriani on the bench who 'have done fantastically well'. Cipriani was HIA'ed off in the first one and then got smashed last week. There have been all losses on the trot. If that's fantastically well then what would have been average (or even bad). I turned off at that point, just more noise IMO (yes I know he has to say that). The only thing that will get me back into watching this stuff is when the results on the pitch improve.

+ 1

+2

Given that last week has been brushed under the carpet I’m struggling to care that much what happens at Quins.

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

BathMatt53
Stuart Hooper saying that we have Fox and Cipriani on the bench who 'have done fantastically well'. Cipriani was HIA'ed off in the first one and then got smashed last week. There have been all losses on the trot. If that's fantastically well then what would have been average (or even bad). I turned off at that point, just more noise IMO (yes I know he has to say that). The only thing that will get me back into watching this stuff is when the results on the pitch improve.

+ 1

+2

Given that last week has been brushed under the carpet I’m struggling to care that much what happens at Quins.

+3.

Thankfully it's matchday and the time for meaningless rhetoric is nearly over.

They clearly rate fox so highly that he only plays when we are desperate and gets dropped for a player who arrived last week who has been farmed out twice already this season. Max green clearly valued as well so great decision to retain them both.

Big game for will stuart. For me he has massively stalled in his progress. He has to prove he can deal with the likes of marler at scrum time. Got mangled by him last time from memory.

Personally would have had richards on the bench rather than a stop gap 1 year signing. Appreciate the argument that its a bad time to throw young guys in but I am generally on the flipside and think any game time/big game experience will benefit the right kind of character. He was immense at 6 for eng u20. love staddon as well but think he may be injured.

Glad to see bailey back in. Hope immediately getting dropped despite playing v well when cips was available was managed well.

I'm guessing we've rested Ojo - he's a kid afterall.
This week is about showing how much they want to make up for last week. They owe it to the fans and the badge. Let the rugby do the talking.
COYB

Good luck today Bath

Quote:

dannyf2
I'm guessing we've rested Ojo - he's a kid afterall.

That was what Hoops implied in his Team Selection Insight - he mentioned "managing his game time". Also referenced Clarke's physicality- which I suspect will be needed against Esterhuizen.

Mojo is looking good but has fewer than ten first team starts. The occasional rest will probably do him h=good.

PG

Quote:

RagingBull5
Team change to be announced shortly: JJ is out, Max Ojomoh to start.

In the know....

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

BathMatt53
Stuart Hooper saying that we have Fox and Cipriani on the bench who 'have done fantastically well'. Cipriani was HIA'ed off in the first one and then got smashed last week. There have been all losses on the trot. If that's fantastically well then what would have been average (or even bad). I turned off at that point, just more noise IMO (yes I know he has to say that). The only thing that will get me back into watching this stuff is when the results on the pitch improve.

+ 1

+2

Given that last week has been brushed under the carpet I’m struggling to care that much what happens at Quins.

It hasn't been brushed under the carpet. Watch the videos with the players and with Mark Lilley. There's an honesty as well as some analysis of the key things that need correction. Execution in the red zone, in particular lineout/maul and physicality in the carry plus much stronger defence and set piece are the three things they've specifically worked on this week. So lets see if there is any real improvement there

But I guess what you meant is that no one has been sacked

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

RagingBull5
Team change to be announced shortly: JJ is out, Max Ojomoh to start.

In the know....

Just confirmed.
In tye know as you say- as is RagingBull. Maybe he really is a badger?

PG

All in favour of badgers.

PECK

Good start... 👀

Try Bath!!

Yellow Marler

OB converts


12 v 10

Marler very lucky not to see red for flipping tdg. Yellow.
We get a try back from set piece. 12-10

Bath win 50:22 driving for Quins line

Pushover Bath try JdeT

Making use of the extra man. Try Bath.

TdeG off

Beno knee injury?

Obano serious knee injury.

Or maybe not... Obano refusing to leave pitch. He shouldn't stay on. Deja vu.

Going down like flies Jaco TDG and now Beno . Urrggghh!

Great news on the try scoring front. Looks like we’ve made the most of Marler’s yellow. The injuries are rather worrying though. I’m only on radio, anyone got an idea how everyone’s doing?

HT


12 v 17

Obano off second half. Probably for the best

What happened to Coetzee

Quins try. Smith skins Clarke on outside.

Now Simpson HIA

We're conceding a lot of pens for jackaling when the tackler hasn't yet rolled away. Close calls.

Bath nearly score a 70m turnover wonder try. Fox tackled 8n to touch. Ewels concedes pen from lineout 15m from Quins try line. Why Charlie?

60min Dunny on

70min. Attritional. Bath pinned in own 22. Lots of turnover hokey kokey. Difficult to exit.

RMc off. Hamer Webb on.

Try quins in corner. Marchant. Follows scrum masterclass from Marler.

Loose broken play. Smith goose step finds space and puts Marchant in corner for another.

Plenty of heart. But we concede pens at scrum over and over again. Our defensive line has no shape. 31-17. Game over.

From the online commentary it sounded like we were emotionally up for it but we still aren’t very good at rugby compared to other premiership teams. We seem to be losing lots of players again this season.

So that was zero points in the second half?

It seems to have been just the outcome we didn’t want. A few green shoots that most of us know won’t come to anything resulting in an excuse to leave the coaching team in place.

We got 14 points when playing against only 14 men, but really didn’t look like scoring at any other time.
Normally a 14 point losing margin is pretty big even if they did score 12 points in the last 5 minutes, it’s only after last week it seem better…



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:23:17:19:12 by dcsh.

Quote:

Bath Hammer
It seems to have been just the outcome we didn’t want. A few green shoots that most of us know won’t come to anything resulting in an excuse to leave the coaching team in place.

+1

Worst possible result, just means we are stuck with the same underperforming coaching team.

I am sure there will be lots of pain, honesty and full backing this week which will ensure the boys prepare well in the week.

The Wasps and Glaws games are winnable maybe but there isn’t much else in 2021 that seems like we will be able to get anything out of. Another pummelling at Welford Road and European embarrassment looks very much on the cards too.

Can't see any green shoots conceding 31 points this week and 71 last week. How does this coaching team stay on post?

Quote:

gaz59

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

BathMatt53
Stuart Hooper saying that we have Fox and Cipriani on the bench who 'have done fantastically well'. Cipriani was HIA'ed off in the first one and then got smashed last week. There have been all losses on the trot. If that's fantastically well then what would have been average (or even bad). I turned off at that point, just more noise IMO (yes I know he has to say that). The only thing that will get me back into watching this stuff is when the results on the pitch improve.

+ 1

+2

Given that last week has been brushed under the carpet I’m struggling to care that much what happens at Quins.

It hasn't been brushed under the carpet. Watch the videos with the players and with Mark Lilley. There's an honesty as well as some analysis of the key things that need correction. Execution in the red zone, in particular lineout/maul and physicality in the carry plus much stronger defence and set piece are the three things they've specifically worked on this week. So lets see if there is any real improvement there

But I guess what you meant is that no one has been sacked

Saw the videos and for me it absolutely has been brushed under the carpet. I worked in a high performance environment and if anyone underperformed like our coaches they were gone. Simple as that.

Sounds like the injuries cost us. Especially when TDG came off..

I thought things were about to improve, then had a look at the full-time score. I haD the feel of a newly promoted Championship team playing in the GP.

A shame once again, but I don't see anything changing come Monday morning?

Quins had scored 50 tries in their last 7 home games. For those not very good at maths , that's over 7 tries a game.
Today they only managed 4, two of which came at the game's death.
To me, that suggests the defence was better this week, though clearly far from perfect.

I still think changes in the coaching set up are urgently needed - a proper defence coach, Hatley either returning to scrum coach or departing, and a gnarly head coach who will kick some butts hard.

Quote:

Dorset Boy

I still think changes in the coaching set up are urgently needed - a proper defence coach, Hatley either returning to scrum coach or departing, and a gnarly head coach who will kick some butts hard.

Spot on

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

Dorset Boy

I still think changes in the coaching set up are urgently needed - a proper defence coach, Hatley either returning to scrum coach or departing, and a gnarly head coach who will kick some butts hard.

Spot on

Spot on indeed, but it won't happen.

Nothing can stop the Duke of Earl

The most likely scenario (based on the soundbites thus far) would be to bring someone in alongside the coaching team in place. That has the feel of addressing the problem and maintaining the "building" that is supposedly taking place.

We shall have to see what Hoops has to reveal later today

It looked to be going well at HT. Bailey off for injury or subbed?

Quote:

Kaapstad
The most likely scenario (based on the soundbites thus far) would be to bring someone in alongside the coaching team in place. That has the feel of addressing the problem and maintaining the "building" that is supposedly taking place.
We shall have to see what Hoops has to reveal later today

That might be acceptable if time is needed to get the right coaching team in place but is otherwise merely a sticking plaster to engineer one or two wins to keep a few people happy.

Quote:

OldMarovian
It looked to be going well at HT. Bailey off for injury or subbed?

Tom de Glanville injured by a dangerous tackle by Joe Marler, so Orlando Bailey was moved to 15, and Danny Cip on to 10.
I think that's right, but not seen the game.

Quote:

Dorset Boy
Quins had scored 50 tries in their last 7 home games. For those not very good at maths , that's over 7 tries a game.
Today they only managed 4, two of which came at the game's death.
To me, that suggests the defence was better this week, though clearly far from perfect.

I still think changes in the coaching set up are urgently needed - a proper defence coach, Hatley either returning to scrum coach or departing, and a gnarly head coach who will kick some butts hard.

I agree with you DB- at least until I see the highlights. Effort and defence seem better than last week. I do hope the injured will not be out for long.

IMHO we do need changes. 0 from 5 is the worst start since 2002-3 season.

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Why bring Cips on for TdG?
More obvious would have been GHW to wing with RMcC to full back, leaving OB at 10 surely?

Thanks Dorset Boy. Hopefully he's ok.

Quote:

nigewing
Why bring Cips on for TdG?
More obvious would have been GHW to wing with RMcC to full back, leaving OB at 10 surely?

Possibly due to Bailey having played fullback for the whole of the U20s 6Ns in the summer and looking pretty good there.

Tdg went off and cips went to 15. OB stayed at 10. For me the biggest difference between the two teams was that they have a core of leading players that take control when it matters: Marler, Smith, Care, Dombrandt. Their young guns take confidence from the positivity and thrust of that core group.
Our coaching team isn't equipping our leading players to do the same. Ewels for example: it's like watching sand slip through his fingers when the game is in the balance.
We need someone to come in and teach us how to be nasty again. Confident. Together. Edgy.

Quote:

ken_jnr
From the online commentary it sounded like we were emotionally up for it but we still aren’t very good at rugby compared to other premiership teams. We seem to be losing lots of players again this season.

I listened and that sounds a fair summary

Quote:

Bath Hammer

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Dorset Boy

I still think changes in the coaching set up are urgently needed - a proper defence coach, Hatley either returning to scrum coach or departing, and a gnarly head coach who will kick some butts hard.

Spot on

Agree with this view. Sadly I am in the camp where this was worst possible result/performance. Vaguely plucky, still outclassed but could argue the players are still behind the current set up.

I really am not yet in a place to be pleased by being completely outplayed second half and only losing by 14 points to harlequins. The bar is low but still not prepared to accept average performances or below every week.

From listening it felt like it wasn't a humiliation due to quins being a bit off their game and making a lot of unforced errors in the red zone but maybe that's being unfair. Will leave that judgement to those who watched.

From those who have seen it, should Marler have seen red for his dangerous tackle that put TdG out of the game?

Just watched the game. Better because Quins are not Sarries but we never looked like winning. We butchered 3 or 4 tries today purely through a iack of patience or accuracy (just as we did against Sarries) and we continue to give away dumb penalties in dumb positions. Its a real shame that OB2 had to move to 15 because I was enjoying him playing through the Quins line.

Hope Jaco, Joe, TdG and Beno are OK.

Is Faletau going to actually play a game for us this season?

MotM - Sam Underhill, A titanic shift in the wrong position. Make him captain.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

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Dorset Boy
From those who have seen it, should Marler have seen red for his dangerous tackle that put TdG out of the game?

No. There was an attempt to wrap by Marler. Marler's shoulder hit TdGs knee and the flip was at least partially caused by Esterhuizen tackling TdG at shoulder level. There was no injury from the flip that ensued. Yellow correct but it could easily just have been a pen.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Where did you watch it Joe?

I have heard that if you put 'sport stream' in to a search engine, it is possible to find places to watch every game...

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Optimist
Where did you watch it Joe?

I get all the games on my Peacock Rugby subscription. Today's commentary was by Flats.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Just to add to my thoughts. We were not tactically out played today. We were competitive but undone on the scoreboard by a piece of outrageous skill from Dombrandt and by Marcus Smith just being Marcus Smith. But we didn't look like we knew how to win.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

More words of wisdom from Stuart Hooper………..Not !

“We understand what we need to do next weekend against Wasps “
“We got back to a level we expect of ourselves physically “

So what went wrong then ?

“We gave away too many penalties and couldn’t get out of our own half and we know where we are headed and the steps we need to take”

Same old Guff , I recommend BIG steps out of the door !

Anyway I shall be at the Wasps game to see the results !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

......................................

and on we go. Same old same old. The performances and the results won't change - Hooper et al have had 3 good seasons to show better results and at the time, when he was made DoR we were regularly in top 6.

Excuses have to end. The only solution is to achieve. This has not happened & is never likely to so changes have to be made now. If not, supporters will stay away eventually as will young aspiring players who want to develop their careers.

Ewels' post match statement is very telling:

"Confidence was the difference. One side had it, the other did not... The young guys bring energy and we older ones need to steer the ship. The experienced guys have been in this position before. We know that you get back on track by doubling down and blotting out the noise from outside."

He is astute in knowing that it was Quins' leading players that made the difference when the game was there for the taking: Scrum brilliance from Marler; flair from Smith; power from Dombrandt.
Our leading players don't make those kind of contributions that swing the match. I'm thinking of Underhill, JJ, Ewels, Stuart.
The trouble with locking yourself in camp and blotting out the noise is that you are limited to the influence of the people who have failed for three years to bring the best out of you as a player. We've won one game since April. Ouch.

With the lengthening injury list the pressure will only grow. If Obano has seriously injured his knee again we will be in trouble. Boyce is not back to full match sharpness and Schoeman is very much a journeyman. Not good that Coetzee had to come off so soon into the game with Autumn internationals approaching. Simpson is clearly fragile and losing De Glanville for any period of time would really leave us short of options at 15 with Watson out.

Sounded like beno was allowed to scrummage on a potentially serious knee injury. Agree big probs if he is out.

Awful timing with coetzee, couldn't make it up.

I love rmc playing 15 but does leave us v short of options.

You know your props malco- how do you rate our current collection? Do you think boyce is any good?

The commentary I heard and some on here seem to think after TDG went off it was Cipriani to 10 and Bailey at 15. Dannyf2 says Bailey stayed at 10 and Cipriani went to 15.
Can any one who was there confirm which it was?
Because it seemed to be the end of any attacking intent that we showed before the change.

From the radio commentary sounded like cips to 10 and bailey to 15.

I was in the camp who felt rmc to 15 and ghw on as a wing made more logical sense but who knowsas was only listening.... they don't like to turn down an opp to undermine bailey.

At your disposal gents. #thebadger

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charlieboa
You know your props malco- how do you rate our current collection? Do you think boyce is any good?

I think Boyce will mature but I haven't seen anything to make me think he is more than a decent Premiership squad player.

Schoeman really is a journeyman. He is a whole hearted trier and will give everything, every time he takes the field. But I don't see him ever being a dominant player.

The rumours of talks with Steven Kitshoff strike a chord. He would be a very good acquisition.

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TG Kesmo
The commentary I heard and some on here seem to think after TDG went off it was Cipriani to 10 and Bailey at 15. Dannyf2 says Bailey stayed at 10 and Cipriani went to 15.
Can any one who was there confirm which it was?
Because it seemed to be the end of any attacking intent that we showed before the change.

I watched it live mate.

Cips went to 15.

We cannot "buy a win" another pointless 40 minutes having gone in ahead at the break.

102 points conceded in 2 games and 34 points scored. Enough said I think.

102 points conceded in 2 weeks for a Premiership club what on earth is going on and why are we still even debating about a defence coach.

Could barely muster the enthusiasm to see how much we lost by and thinking about it today I really don’t care that we lost yet again. Losing used to make me grumpy, but now it doesn’t matter.

The only thing that really irritates is the comments from Hooper who is in total denial on what he is doing to the playing side of the club. Can we not have someone from the coaching side to be honest about what is going on?

Very sorry for the injured players and hope it’s not too serious for them, but at the end of the day Bath have nothing to play for this season.

I’ll be there next weekend to no doubt see good rugby from Wasps and chaotic, directionless play from Bath full of effort from players doing their best. If only effort was enough, we’d be a top side.

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malco

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charlieboa
You know your props malco- how do you rate our current collection? Do you think boyce is any good?

I think Boyce will mature but I haven't seen anything to make me think he is more than a decent Premiership squad player.

Schoeman really is a journeyman. He is a whole hearted trier and will give everything, every time he takes the field. But I don't see him ever being a dominant player.

The rumours of talks with Steven Kitshoff strike a chord. He would be a very good acquisition.

Kitshoff would be a great signing I think. 29 yrs old so probably 4 good years left in him. Dominant scrummager which is what we really lack.

Just watched the game. It was a massive improvement on last week (not difficult). Quins away was always likely to be a loss, but for 70 mins we were in the game. In isolation it wasn't a bad performance. Areas such as the scrum that have been such an issue were ok. Maul pretty good and defence mostly ok too.

Lots of penalties, although on another day I think we would have got turnovers from some that were given. Getting overpowered in a few rucks first half was concerning.

Clarke a big step up on Joseph I thought, and I'd keep this centre partnership together.
Du toit also a step up from the Dunn of this season.

The big issue was that second half we were soaking up pressure in our own half and at some point we were going to be undone. Whether it is discipline, inability to force turnovers or losing the kicking game and competing in the air we need to find a way to be playing more of the game in the opposition half and imposing our game.

I also watched it - Smith and Dombrandt are absolute class and bang on form.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

For those who haven't noticed, Saints put 60 points in Worcester and West Midlands Wanderers shipped 8 tries to Sarries. It's a weird season.

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Trawling
For those who haven't noticed, Saints put 60 points in Worcester and West Midlands Wanderers shipped 8 tries to Sarries. It's a weird season.

In fairness Worcester and Wasps have significant injury problems. However what we might be seeing is simply some really good teams taking the rubbish teams apart.

Hmm so other sides get to use injuries as a reason for losing but we don't?

Seeing the last two tries we conceded looked both incredibly frustrating as they were bounceabount flukey broken-field tries, but both are also exactly the sort of tries you concede a. To Quins at the mo and b. When you've been defending the whole second half and are knackered.

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Trawling
Hmm so other sides get to use injuries as a reason for losing but we don't?

Bath’s injury list nothing like that of Worcs/Wasps.

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hasta
Seeing the last two tries we conceded looked both incredibly frustrating as they were bounceabount flukey broken-field tries, but both are also exactly the sort of tries you concede a. To Quins at the mo and b. When you've been defending the whole second half and are knackered.

Exactly

Reid, Spencer, Faletau, Spencer, Schoeman, Joseph, Redpath, Watson, Cokanasiga and now Obano, Coetzee, Simpson and De Glanville but no issues there then?

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Trawling
Reid, Spencer, Faletau, Spencer, Schoeman, Joseph, Redpath, Watson, Cokanasiga and now Obano, Coetzee, Simpson and De Glanville but no issues there then?

Crumbs 31% of the main squad. Looks like the academy lads will have to step up!

I'm quite sure that the chaotic way in which we are playing must lead to more injuries.

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Bath Hammer
I'm quite sure that the chaotic way in which we are playing must lead to more injuries.

Didn’t Mike Ford like the chaotic rugby style?

Look, we're really all over the place as a team at the moment but my issue is with comments like that. The ability to hold two potentially contradictory ideas in your mind inevitably goes out of the window on sites like this which is a shame. Other teams have been crap, we have been@#$%&but the reason we are@#$%&must be more significant? They are only coincidentally crap? For those who are up for a bit if perspective, Man Utd got humperdinked at home and India lost by 10 wickets by Pakistan. It's sport and there are times when it all goes horribly wrong.

Trouble is it keeps going horribly wrong.....................................................

Think Wasps basically wrote the Sarries game off and rested their fit first team players as they're prioritising next week's game, whoever that might be against! As for keeping things in perspective Trawling, wise words, given Somerset finished bottom of their CC league and last won a game in May and Norwich City haven't won in any of their last 19 Premier League games. Life must be so much easier if you support the few successful teams...

Forget the chaos comment, it’s probably completely irrational, but things have now been in massive decline for this whole calendar year & before that there were no obvious signs of improvement. Other teams may also have slumps & many will eventually sack their coaches. I have supported this regime so far but enough is enough. It’s not working & yet more changes are sadly needed.

If you look at the middle of Rugby Dump's three pictures of the tackle on TdG, there is no way it would not have been a red card if it had been a Bath player.....
That looks bad, really bad

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CoochieCoo

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Trawling
Reid, Spencer, Faletau, Spencer, Schoeman, Joseph, Redpath, Watson, Cokanasiga and now Obano, Coetzee, Simpson and De Glanville but no issues there then?

Crumbs 31% of the main squad. Looks like the academy lads will have to step up!

Some injuries are going to cause us a real headache but pretty crazy we can be without watson, coko, tdg and still have a back 3 of muir, rmc, roko with the likes of gh-w still available.

Similar depth in backrow I think.

Lose beno, stuart and ewels prob next week and front 5 looks v v poor I think.

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BathMatt53
I also watched it - Smith and Dombrandt are absolute class and bang on form.

Anyone go well for us bathrugbymatt?

Radio comm suggested underhill was v good (playing at 8 after coetzee went off).

Sounded like de carpentier made a decent fist of it on debut as well?

Full match available here for those that can bare it [www.premiershiprugby.com]

Underhill did well at 8 and was unlucky at several (3+) breakdowns to be penalised due to others not rolling away when he would have made the turnover. Clark tackled hard, but was left exposed by his outside man to Smith’s pace for a try. de Carpentier didn’t look out of place playing 15s, noticeable with a bright blue hat and busted nose. The first I noticed of Coetzee was when Underhill had the game stopped cos he’d knocked himself out in a collision from the restart after the first try, he was down for a long time.

Thanks dcsh.

Was it a head knock that forced coetzee off?

I missed the first 10 mins

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Dorset Boy
If you look at the middle of Rugby Dump's three pictures of the tackle on TdG, there is no way it would not have been a red card if it had been a Bath player.....
That looks bad, really bad

Marler's wink to the bench while going off told the whole story.

So Hooper and Bath are not going to listen to us then.

Well that's fine as I will simply stop buying tickets and merchandise. I'm done with them.

Hooper out.

Sort our club out it's a bloody mess.

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malco

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Dorset Boy
If you look at the middle of Rugby Dump's three pictures of the tackle on TdG, there is no way it would not have been a red card if it had been a Bath player.....
That looks bad, really bad

Marler's wink to the bench while going off told the whole story.

Yes, he was happy enough that it was only yellow. Amazed that the rest of the Bath team just sort of stood there and didn't take umbrage at their young colleague getting taken out.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

The loss of TdG is a real hammer blow for the game against Wasps. Atkins could return to the starting 15, it's either that or Bailey and Cips start the game how the finished this one, which I think is likely. With Obano out with his knee and HIA's to Simpson and Coetzee would could be looking at something like this;

Boyce, Du Toit, Rae, Spencer, McNally, Ellis, Reid, Merigan; Fox, Cips, Muir, Mojo, JJ, Roko, Bailey

Dunn, Schoeman, Jonker, Williams, De Carpentier, Green, Clark, McC

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joethefanatic

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Optimist
Where did you watch it Joe?

I get all the games on my Peacock Rugby subscription. Today's commentary was by Flats.

it's ridiculous that we only get 3 games on a weekend.

I tried to sign up to Peacock Rugby ($4.99 pm), set my VPN to NY, chose a NY ZIP code, got as far as credit card, computer says no as the Zipcode doesn't align twith credit card postcode, any ideas?

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BathMatt53

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malco

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Dorset Boy
If you look at the middle of Rugby Dump's three pictures of the tackle on TdG, there is no way it would not have been a red card if it had been a Bath player.....
That looks bad, really bad

Marler's wink to the bench while going off told the whole story.

Yes, he was happy enough that it was only yellow. Amazed that the rest of the Bath team just sort of stood there and didn't take umbrage at their young colleague getting taken out.

That's surprising and disappointing, if the incident was as bad as the pictures made it appear I'd expect the whole team to pile in to sort out Marler.

The same people would then moan that retaliation is dumb and we lacked leadership if the penalty then got reversed. Lose lose.

I'm surprised we haven't given McC a run at 15. Has all the skills to my eye. Hopefully a few of those on the injured list will be back for what is a 'must win' game.

Also- are England players unavailable this weekend? Assumed it would be from next week.

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Grumpy_Uncle _Iroh
The loss of TdG is a real hammer blow for the game against Wasps. Atkins could return to the starting 15, it's either that or Bailey and Cips start the game how the finished this one, which I think is likely. With Obano out with his knee and HIA's to Simpson and Coetzee would could be looking at something like this;
Boyce, Du Toit, Rae, Spencer, McNally, Ellis, Reid, Merigan; Fox, Cips, Muir, Mojo, JJ, Roko, Bailey

Dunn, Schoeman, Jonker, Williams, De Carpentier, Green, Clark, McC

I would always try to get rmc into the first xv myself. Class act and a v good 15 as well.

Hopefully one of bayliss and faletau may be back as assume we don't have to release them

McC hasn't been fit! And I wouldn't pick him over TdG at the mo.

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OutsideBath

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BathMatt53

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malco

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Dorset Boy
If you look at the middle of Rugby Dump's three pictures of the tackle on TdG, there is no way it would not have been a red card if it had been a Bath player.....
That looks bad, really bad

Marler's wink to the bench while going off told the whole story.

Yes, he was happy enough that it was only yellow. Amazed that the rest of the Bath team just sort of stood there and didn't take umbrage at their young colleague getting taken out.

That's surprising and disappointing, if the incident was as bad as the pictures made it appear I'd expect the whole team to pile in to sort out Marler.

I think you really need to watch the video of this tackle to understand the sequence of events, the still photos look bad, but obviously lack the dynamics of the situation. Marler hit low (knee height) and didn’t manage to wrap before TdG flipped over him, at the same time Esterhuizen was tackling TdG at chest/shoulder height accentuating the rotation of TdG.

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BathMatt53

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malco

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Dorset Boy
If you look at the middle of Rugby Dump's three pictures of the tackle on TdG, there is no way it would not have been a red card if it had been a Bath player.....
That looks bad, really bad

Marler's wink to the bench while going off told the whole story.

Yes, he was happy enough that it was only yellow. Amazed that the rest of the Bath team just sort of stood there and didn't take umbrage at their young colleague getting taken out.

I know its almost compulsory as a rugby fan to think marler is a real 'character ' , amazing in every way and great for the game. He is a really really good player but personally think he an absolute tool. Each to their own, certainly gets rugby some attention and clearly a very important senior member of the quins squad.

I am never disappointed to see players avoid a red of possible from either team. The radio commentary team seemed to think a yellow was about right on balance- these things tend to go against you when you are struggling already.

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woodpecker

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joethefanatic

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Optimist
Where did you watch it Joe?

I get all the games on my Peacock Rugby subscription. Today's commentary was by Flats.

it's ridiculous that we only get 3 games on a weekend.

I tried to sign up to Peacock Rugby ($4.99 pm), set my VPN to NY, chose a NY ZIP code, got as far as credit card, computer says no as the Zipcode doesn't align twith credit card postcode, any ideas?

Yes I found it pretty ironic that you can watch the game in Fiji but not when you are from Bath. Surely it's time for some sort of PPV option for away games? I get that they want bums on seats but if you can't get there (or back) then you just miss out. They could make it expensive if they wanted - £10, £15 or even £20 a game, at least there would be the option.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

I find all the chat about individual players, injuries, team selection & referees now so much less important than the overriding state of the team & the lack of direction & motivational coaching (not). That is a real indictment on my part & clearly others are still able to focus on such matters, good on them, but I am developing an increasing feeling of disheartenment & disinterest. Fortunately West Ham is currently in a much better place!

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charlieboa

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BathMatt53

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malco

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Dorset Boy
If you look at the middle of Rugby Dump's three pictures of the tackle on TdG, there is no way it would not have been a red card if it had been a Bath player.....
That looks bad, really bad

Marler's wink to the bench while going off told the whole story.

Yes, he was happy enough that it was only yellow. Amazed that the rest of the Bath team just sort of stood there and didn't take umbrage at their young colleague getting taken out.

I know its almost compulsory as a rugby fan to think marler is a real 'character ' , amazing in every way and great for the game. He is a really really good player but personally think he an absolute tool. Each to their own, certainly gets rugby some attention and clearly a very important senior member of the quins squad.

I am never disappointed to see players avoid a red of possible from either team. The radio commentary team seemed to think a yellow was about right on balance- these things tend to go against you when you are struggling already.

I think Marler gets away with things other players wouldn't get away with by dint of having built the persona of "being a bit of a character". This would have been a red card for most players on most occasions and I think Marler himself is well aware of that.

Has Marler been cited?

It wasn't Marler on his own, it was a combination tackle that caused the problem, Marler wasn't high and wasn't reckless. Argue about wrap. Yes it was a bad outcome, but I can't really see this as more than a YC. Three selective stills aren't a great story.

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OutsideBath
Has Marler been cited?

Not as far as I’m aware. To be fair the replay and photos are a bit misleading, with the reverse angle it is clear that a Marler was attempting to wrap the arms and b the payer was in the air in other words jumping into the tackle (which could have been a penalty the other way). At the time I put it down to a rugby incident but Bath certainly benefited from a yellow card.

QUIN KONG

Yellow looked about right to me, although the outcome looked pretty bad.
Agree thought that Marler's wink going off was not a good look.

PG

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Quin Kong
Bath certainly benefited from a yellow card.

I would have traded the yellow for TDG staying on the pitch rather then being injured tbf.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

What does the wink say?

We've see red cards being given based on the outcome for the last few seasons, whether or not there was any intent - Bath had at least 3 red cards last year where there was no intent (Ewels, Obano & Mike Williams).
The middle still makes it abundantly clear that TdG landed on his head / neck and that has been a straight red for the last 2 seasons at least. The fact there was the second tackler is irrelevant in mitigation, and Joe M failed to wrap.

I don't think Joe Marler intended to have TdG land on his neck, and I don't think he's a dirty player, but again that's irrelevant.

Luke Pearce is one of the best referrees and I'm curious as to why he thought it wasn't red, and really want consistency from the officials across matches, which patently isn't happening.

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Quin Kong

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OutsideBath
Has Marler been cited?

with the reverse angle it is clear that a Marler was attempting to wrap the arms and b the payer was in the air in other words jumping into the tackle (which could have been a penalty the other way).

That's quite a stretch Quin Kong. It is the tackle from behind (Esterhuizen?) which lifts De Glanville into the air. I see no jump into the tackle.

PG

The second tackler isn't irrelevant at all, it's clear mitigation. The red cards we had last year were all on height (which doesn't apply here). And no TdG wasn't jumping into it, he was spun over Marler by Esterhuizen's (also legal) tackle.

It was unfortunate, yellow card fair. As for Bath 'benefitting from a yellow card', catch yourself on, we'd all rather have TdG fit.

Watched it now. Underhill was pretty exceptional at number 8 - looked as though he'd been picking off the back of the scrum all his life. Cipriani looks very short of confidence, and Bailey doesn't. I think Orlando's time has come.

If it weren't for last week's fiasco, I don't think anyone would have felt desperate based on that performance. But nor would anyone have us down as serious top 4 contenders.

Next week is going to stretch the squad a bit though.

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hasta
The second tackler isn't irrelevant at all, it's clear mitigation. The red cards we had last year were all on height (which doesn't apply here). And no TdG wasn't jumping into it, he was spun over Marler by Esterhuizen's (also legal) tackle.
It was unfortunate, yellow card fair. As for Bath 'benefitting from a yellow card', catch yourself on, we'd all rather have TdG fit.

By benefiting from the yellow I meant that I think that Bath had 12 to 14 points from the bin period and yes I recognise that you would have preferred TdG on the pitch. That said I have seen incidents like that chalked off as a rugby incidents and not been penalised. Hey ho it was what it was.

QUIN KONG

QK

Two years ago, addressing Bath Rugby Supporters' Club, Tony Spreadbury, Head of RFU Match Officials, told us that there is "no such thing as a rugby incident" -only the tackle & HIA protocol.

PG

I thought we played well, seemed to manage the territory better than we did against Sarries - could be down to Simpson. Clark added a lot to our backline in both defence and attack. Bailey deserves the 10 shirt at the moment.

Really gutted to have more injuries.

I still haven't brought into the new game plan of chucking the ball about. I would much rather see a decent set piece and tough defence.

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by
I still haven't brought into the new game plan of chucking the ball about. I would much rather see a decent set piece and tough defence.

We don't really win enough quick, clean ball, or sustain possession through enough phases to see any specific game plan emerging. Our biggest issues remain knocking on, and getting isolated.

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by

I still haven't brought into the new game plan of chucking the ball about. I would much rather see a decent set piece and tough defence.

Agreed. The idea was to layer on some kind of attack over a solid set piece and defence. Sadly we have become awful at the latter trying to attain the former. Find it genuinely surprising how difficult we are making it look. Didn't expect us to be world beaters inmediately, just not the whipping boys of the prem

We've played Sale away and got a LBP (and could easily have won), Briz away and got an LBP (and were competitive), Falcons at home and got nothing, Sarries at home and lost really badly and Quins away and were respectable but lost (and got nothing).

Of these results, the only one that is really surprising, and then only to Bath eyes, is the Newcastle game (and subsequent games suggest Falcons are a very good side this year).

We're not going to beat Leinster, La Rochelle, Wasps (well, maybe) and Tigs either. We're not as bad as we've painted ourselves but the picture isn't going to improve for a while.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Personally think the first 4 were pretty poor losses.

Sale missing all their better players.

Newcastle at home should be a win ( they are a good, well coached team who have started well again but if we don't expect to beat them at home we may as well pack up now)

Bris have been dire this season and are second from bottom.

Sarries....enough said.

In isolation that quins result and performance pretty tolerable.

I think wasps game is winnable but the only one for a while as you say. If we lose next week that's a v v ugly start to the season.

I agree maybe we aren't as bad as 5 losses from 5 suggests but its record breaking for all the wrong reasons.

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P G Tips
QK
Two years ago, addressing Bath Rugby Supporters' Club, Tony Spreadbury, Head of RFU Match Officials, told us that there is "no such thing as a rugby incident" -only the tackle & HIA protocol.

PG

Spreadbury way well have said that two years ago, but the refs that operate in the Premiership use the phrase on a regular basis. They use if for incidents when someone gets hurt, but they can’t see that anyone was at fault to be penalised.
With the Marler/TdG incident the ref judged that Marler didn’t sufficiently wrap his arm, so could be penalised, but on another day or with a different angle that call could have been different.

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joethefanatic
We're not as bad as we've painted ourselves but the picture isn't going to improve for a while.

If zero wins from 5 games, bottom of the table and losing 17-71 isn't as bad as we have painted ourselves then we really do have problems. Other painful stats:

- Points for: second lowest (to Bristol) at 86 per 5 games
- Point against: 167 second lowest (to Worcester)
- Tries for: 10
- Tries against: 23
- Try bonus: 0

Remember the Sale team had no south african internationals and no Tom Curry etc. In fact they have won 2 of 6, one of those being against us.

I personally think that we are as bad as we think at the moment. Agree its difficult to see a way out at the moment (with the current set-up at least).

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

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woodpecker

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joethefanatic

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Optimist
Where did you watch it Joe?

I get all the games on my Peacock Rugby subscription. Today's commentary was by Flats.

it's ridiculous that we only get 3 games on a weekend.

I tried to sign up to Peacock Rugby ($4.99 pm), set my VPN to NY, chose a NY ZIP code, got as far as credit card, computer says no as the Zipcode doesn't align twith credit card postcode, any ideas?

You need a friend in the USA who will sign up for you and you give them the cash in return for the login details. If no US friends maybe jtf can put you in touch with his neighbours?

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

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My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

I found this quite telling from an interview in the lead up to the quins game

Quote:

Sam Underhill
“Traditionally we’ve gone from a fairly conservative style of rugby where we’ve focused heavily on set piece, our scrum, maul, pick and go, on our contestable box kicking - which famously crowds have said that’s a bit boring - to trying to play a bit differently. As I said, it takes time.”

[www.bathrugby.com]

It feels like we're ripping off other teams, we went from trying to copy Exeter to now trying to to copy Quins and Bristol. Meanwhile we've been leapfrogged by Bristol, L. Irish, Wasps, Tigers, Saints and Falcons. I want the Hooper project to work but I feel that its incredibly naïve to change our game plan 2 seasons into a "rebuild", I think its quite evident that fans are currently sick of starting again and desperately want to see some success.

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woodpecker

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joethefanatic

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Optimist
Where did you watch it Joe?

I get all the games on my Peacock Rugby subscription. Today's commentary was by Flats.

it's ridiculous that we only get 3 games on a weekend.

I tried to sign up to Peacock Rugby ($4.99 pm), set my VPN to NY, chose a NY ZIP code, got as far as credit card, computer says no as the Zipcode doesn't align twith credit card postcode, any ideas?

PAYPAL might work? Failing that, any friends or relations in the US who would sign up for you?

Not to rub salt or anything but its worth the effort cos Its a good service. All games live streamed and then a full replay service about 3h after the match has ended. You don't get the fancy graphics or pre-match/halftime/full time bantz (which is a relief), just live pix from the ground while you make a cup of tea. There's no highlights package, tho'. You also get the same service for Big Cup but with the local commentators.

The comms on the matches not featured by BT tend towards the "experimental". Flats' stream of consciousness approach is a (very) acquired taste but there's a Scot (who's name escapes me) who is very good. The biggest drawback is that you sometime get Dewi Freaking Morris but there's always the mute button for that.

Also, you get the 6N (and the Lions) but not the summer tours, the AIs, Little Cup, the URC, S14 or Rugby Championship..

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:25:20:42:56 by joethefanatic.

It's funny how different people see the same incident differently. Flatman, who was commentating on the game didn't think the Marler tackle was even penalty!

I don't think we're trying to copy Quins or Bristol. I do think we're trying to layer a dynamic, structured attack on a solid set-piece foundation and gritty defence. The problem is that we were a season too late to do so and our solid set-piece and gritty defence abandoned us last year. Dempsey was, let's be clear, totally ineffective and should never have lasted as long as he did.

Honestly I wonder how much would be solved by putting Hatley back in charge of forwards and bringing in an absolute bottom opening of a defence coach. We have, maybe two positions (back-up tighthead and lock) aside, a good squad.

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malco

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charlieboa

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BathMatt53

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malco

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Dorset Boy
If you look at the middle of Rugby Dump's three pictures of the tackle on TdG, there is no way it would not have been a red card if it had been a Bath player.....
That looks bad, really bad

Marler's wink to the bench while going off told the whole story.

Yes, he was happy enough that it was only yellow. Amazed that the rest of the Bath team just sort of stood there and didn't take umbrage at their young colleague getting taken out.

I know its almost compulsory as a rugby fan to think marler is a real 'character ' , amazing in every way and great for the game. He is a really really good player but personally think he an absolute tool. Each to their own, certainly gets rugby some attention and clearly a very important senior member of the quins squad.

I am never disappointed to see players avoid a red of possible from either team. The radio commentary team seemed to think a yellow was about right on balance- these things tend to go against you when you are struggling already.

I think Marler gets away with things other players wouldn't get away with by dint of having built the persona of "being a bit of a character". This would have been a red card for most players on most occasions and I think Marler himself is well aware of that.

Exactly right.

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hasta

Honestly I wonder how much would be solved by putting Hatley back in charge of forwards and bringing in an absolute bottom opening of a defence coach. We have, maybe two positions (back-up tighthead and lock) aside, a good squad.

I agree. What is the harm of saying to hats he can keep the top job but his specialism needs to change for the good of the club.

Bring in a really promising, exciting defence coach with some experience under him if such a person exists.

I think the playing squad has a few issues but always will with the cap- as you say a few goos signings and not far off at all.

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Kidney Stone
I think Marler gets away with things by dint of having built the persona of "being a bit of a character"

Doesn't building the 'persona' of 'being a bit of a character' actually make him a 'bit of a character'?

Personally, I think he's a bit of a character. What he also appears to have done is build good relationships with referees ... which is something that people on here are consistently complaining that Charlie Ewels hasn't done.

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by
I found this quite telling from an interview in the lead up to the quins game

Quote:

Sam Underhill
“Traditionally we’ve gone from a fairly conservative style of rugby where we’ve focused heavily on set piece, our scrum, maul, pick and go, on our contestable box kicking - which famously crowds have said that’s a bit boring - to trying to play a bit differently. As I said, it takes time.”

[www.bathrugby.com]

It feels like we're ripping off other teams, we went from trying to copy Exeter to now trying to to copy Quins and Bristol. Meanwhile we've been leapfrogged by Bristol, L. Irish, Wasps, Tigers, Saints and Falcons. I want the Hooper project to work but I feel that its incredibly naïve to change our game plan 2 seasons into a "rebuild", I think its quite evident that fans are currently sick of starting again and desperately want to see some success.

Yes, I wonder whether something has got lost in translation.

We (the fans) didn't want Bath to copy Exeter, Quins, Bris etc - what we did want was to build on what used to be a good core strength in the pack, and then, when the time was right, look to use the undoubted skill and talent out wide.

I don't think anyone on here or in the wider supporter community was suggesting we look to chuck it wide in our own 22 come what may!

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Optimist

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Kidney Stone
I think Marler gets away with things by dint of having built the persona of "being a bit of a character"

Doesn't building the 'persona' of 'being a bit of a character' actually make him a 'bit of a character'?

Personally, I think he's a bit of a character. What he also appears to have done is build good relationships with referees ... which is something that people on here are consistently complaining that Charlie Ewels hasn't done.

Him and sinckler are two of the best refs in the prem.

I agree there is an art to it and it's important....and can be added to the list of things we aren't v savvy with.

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hasta
I don't think we're trying to copy Quins or Bristol. I do think we're trying to layer a dynamic, structured attack on a solid set-piece foundation and gritty defence. The problem is that we were a season too late to do so and our solid set-piece and gritty defence abandoned us last year. Dempsey was, let's be clear, totally ineffective and should never have lasted as long as he did.
Honestly I wonder how much would be solved by putting Hatley back in charge of forwards and bringing in an absolute bottom opening of a defence coach. We have, maybe two positions (back-up tighthead and lock) aside, a good squad.

Admittedly I’ve only watched the Falcons and Sarries games, but I certainly didn’t recognise a dynamic and structured attack. I only saw us bash against defensive lines for a few phases before knocking on.

Maybe something will emerge against Wasps.

Stats of the game:



Designed in Scotland | Made in the West Country

You would have seen it against Bristol OB - a match we definitely should have won.

PG

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P G Tips
You would have seen it against Bristol OB - a match we definitely should have won.
PG

Well let’s hope we see it against Wasps then. If our attack was 1/2 as inventive as Sarries we’d be quite a decent team to watch and might actually win a game.

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P G Tips
You would have seen it against Bristol OB - a match we definitely should have won.
PG

Bristol defence is a mess at the moment, Falcons and definitely Sarries weren't going to allow any of that.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]