FIND THE VENOM. BATH v WASPS

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:02:16:12:55 by P G Tips.

From the Injury Updates thread, "We have a squad of 58/59 players including our academy and at the moment we are working with only about 50 percent of that group because of injuries and international call-ups."

While Wasps are missing 16: Charlie Atkinson, Alfie Barbeary, Malakai Fekitoa, Dan Frost, James Gaskell, Ben Harris, Joe Launchbury, Michael Le Bourgeois, Rob Miller, Ryan Mills, Paolo Odogwu, Gabriel Oghre, Dan Robson, Sam Spink, Theo Vukasinovic and Jack Willis.

Feeling somewhat embittered to have coughed up £50 for a ticket to watch a United game.

Can't blame either club for being forced to put out weakened teams, just unfortunate for everyone that's bought a ticket that it will basically be a United game.

I'll be more interested to see if there is any improvement in Bath's defence and if there is any sign of a coherent attacking strategy. I really don't want to sit in the rain watching Bath bash against Wasp's defence for 80 mins.

I am old fashioned but I find it frustrating that Faletau is selected by Wales when he has not even even played since the Lions tour. Would of thought he needs some game time before playing International Rugby?

adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Can't blame either club for being forced to put out weakened teams, just unfortunate for everyone that's bought a ticket that it will basically be a United game.

On the basis that very few of the Bath 'stars' have been performing as we would hope they would I'm probably looking forward to it more than if full teams were there on both sides? Looking forward to seeing a few new and very eager players on show from both sides.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Harsh Matt.

Underhill has been fantastic, Watson very energetic and penetrative until injured.

After that I suppose it depends who you mean by "stars". We have barely seen B Spencer & McConnnochie, not seen Faletau, Cokanasiga or Redpath.

McNally has done pretty well and IMHO some of the younger guys marked out for stardom - Reid, Bayliss, Ojomoh, De Glanville, Bailey are giving their all- even if their best is yet to come.

PG

Quote:

copester
I am old fashioned but I find it frustrating that Faletau is selected by Wales when he has not even even played since the Lions tour. Would of thought he needs some game time before playing International Rugby?

From the injury link Somerset live:

The Blue, Black and White will technically be able to call upon backrowers Bayliss (Scotland) and Taulupe Faletau (Wales) this weekend for a final time before the Autumn international window, however, both men come into the match with injuries.

Quote:

P G Tips
Harsh Matt.
Underhill has been fantastic, Watson very energetic and penetrative until injured.

After that I suppose it depends who you mean by "stars". We have barely seen B Spencer & McConnnochie, not seen Faletau, Cokanasiga or Redpath.

McNally has done pretty well and IMHO some of the younger guys marked out for stardom - Reid, Bayliss, Ojomoh, De Glanville, Bailey are giving their all- even if their best is yet to come.

PG

Agree, Underhill has been brilliant. Not disputing for a second that all of the players aren't giving their all, its just most of the Internationals (Underhill excepted) are not even close to their peak for Bath at the moment, for whatever reason - and haven't been for quite some time. My point was actually in relation to the likes of Reid, Bayliss, Ojomoh, De Glanville, Bailey who I think have been playing better (in general) for Bath than 20-30-80 cap internationals. Reid and De Glanville in particular would be in my first choice 15. All in my view of course.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Could seriously do with one or two of spencer, reid, bayliss, faletau, coetzee being available otherwise we are down to last men standing in back 5 of the scrum.

Assume staddon injured tho hasn't been mentioned anywhere other than on here.

Excited to see ewan richards being mentioned as in the mix.

Eng u20 players player of the season, largely playing 6. Looks class.

If JJ is back I would be tempted to give mojo a rest as was the plan at the weekend.

Maybe a team along the lines of :

Rmc
Roko
JJ
Clark
Muir/ghw
Bailey
Fox

Boyce
Du toit
Rae
Mcnally
Williams
Ellis
Reid (hopefully)
Bayliss (hopefully)

Bench: schoeman, dunn, jonker, richards, de carpentier, green, cips, ghw/atkins

Whilst the Wasps injury news doesn't look much better (they've very few centres!), Dan Robson being back could be the difference in a scrappy game played by two disjointed teams. Odds on T Young being MotM? Without Underhill, potentially without Bayliss/Reid, he could have a field day.

Like the look of that, Charlie, although I find that the 50/50s from the mid-week injury report, more often than not, tend to be no gos. We need a couple of them (a few from Bayliss, Faletau, Reid, JJ, Muir) to pull through and bulk up the squad if we're to stand a chance, I feel.

Agreed dr.bath1865, as you say if they haven't been back in full training for the week often don't make the cut. Probably sensible tbf.

Given wasps injury probs this really should be seen as a winnable game, and prob the only one for a while.

Hope the players and coaches are really focused on throwing everything at it given that.

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Odds on T Young being MotM?

I'm going Stooke for MotM.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Odds on T Young being MotM?

I'm going Stooke for MotM.

Certainly expect him to outplay williams but maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.

Stooke or Oghre - players are always going to raise their game against a previous club aren't they? Shame for Dan Frost that he is injured - i'm sure he would love to have proved a point playing on the Rec.

Frost and oghre look v handy players to me.

Hoping Jon Stewart goes on to be better than both in the next few years.

Wasps slight favourites for this one at 4/6, Bath the reverse at 6/4. These might change after team announcements though [www.oddschecker.com]

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Ewan Richards and Merighan on the bench for this one, that's a very young team!! Happy that Bailey starts over Cips again.



[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:29:12:02:42 by BathMatt53.

..and the Wasps team:



[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Based on those 23s Wasps have been hit less than Bath. Going to be a tough game. COYB!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Is that both Wasps hookers ex-Bath?

Strange how many hookers out there who either come from Bath catchment or have played for Bath. Walker last week. Langdon at Sale. Oghre, Frost and Van Vuuren at Wasps.

Added for slightly easier reading:

Bath Rugby team to play Wasps

15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Semesa Rokoduguni, 13 Max Clark, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Will Muir, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Ollie Fox; 1 Lewis Boyce, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 D’Arcy Rae, 4 Josh McNally ©, 5 Mike Williams, 6 Richard de Carpentier, 7 Miles Reid, 8 Josh Bayliss

Replacements

16 Tom Dunn, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Johannes Jonker, 19 Ewan Richards, 20 Nahum Mergian, 21 Max Green, 22 Danny Cipriani, 23 Jonathan Joseph

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

I feel a bit for Hooper. The week when he needed luck with injuries and availabilities, we lose a tonne of ours and Wasps get a few back. Ellis and McCon out with yet more injuries really takes the biscuit.

On paper, their pack should have us on toast. Our second rows and backrow, whilst all decent players, just don't carry the physical threat. On what'll be a heavy pitch, I can only them winning the collisions and Thomas Young cleaning up. Robson will be key, too.

We need an 80 minute performance. Not a first 40 like Bristol or Quins. Or a last 20 like Newc or Sale. Or a 0 like Saracens. Full 80, with everyone contributing, and maybe the naivety of youth gives a chance.

That is a fairly staggering injured/ unavailable list. As you say ellis and rmc also injured is real salt in the wound stuff.

Bonus that tdg fine though.

Tbf I bang the drum for trusting the young guys so pleased to see richards and merigan in the 23.

Wasps look stronger on paper and rested a handful of key players last week.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:29:13:13:11 by charlieboa.

Just read the matchday program. No opening letter from Tarquin or the captain on the day, McNally. McNally I can excuse but nothing from the CEO after 5 losses? Coward.

Quote:

Grumpy_Uncle _Iroh
Just read the matchday program. No opening letter from Tarquin or the captain on the day, McNally. McNally I can excuse but nothing from the CEO after 5 losses? Coward.

I agree to an extent but they are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

People would just says its hollow words etc etc.

What could he meaningfully say that would add value at this point? If he backs hoops/hats people will moan , if he doesn't back them he will be undermining them.

The only way out of this immediate pressure is a few good performances and wins but can't see where the next one is coming. Was relatively confident about tomorrow til I saw we had racked up even more injuries than I realised.....

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

Grumpy_Uncle _Iroh
Just read the matchday program. No opening letter from Tarquin or the captain on the day, McNally. McNally I can excuse but nothing from the CEO after 5 losses? Coward.

I agree to an extent but they are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

People would just says its hollow words etc etc.

What could he meaningfully say that would add value at this point? If he backs hoops/hats people will moan , if he doesn't back them he will be undermining them.

He could say he is resigning, that would add value and please a lot of people..

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

Grumpy_Uncle _Iroh
Just read the matchday program. No opening letter from Tarquin or the captain on the day, McNally. McNally I can excuse but nothing from the CEO after 5 losses? Coward.

I agree to an extent but they are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

People would just says its hollow words etc etc.

What could he meaningfully say that would add value at this point? If he backs hoops/hats people will moan , if he doesn't back them he will be undermining them.

He could say he is resigning, that would add value and please a lot of people..

Sure plenty will agree with that.

I am not qualified to comment really as not really had any dealings with tarquin or have any real knowledge of him. Certainly don't see many people singing his praises.

Nick Blofield was a great bloke and Bob calleja before him. Would reply to my emails in great detail and invited me in for chats. Top chaps.

Do remember suggesting to Blofield we sign up a 19 yr old mako vunipola from bris and he said they had doubts about his attitude/professionalism. Oops.

I hope I’m wrong but this could be another humping. Long season indeed. Still, no relegation this season.

Jon Chess

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

Grumpy_Uncle _Iroh
Just read the matchday program. No opening letter from Tarquin or the captain on the day, McNally. McNally I can excuse but nothing from the CEO after 5 losses? Coward.

I agree to an extent but they are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

People would just says its hollow words etc etc.

What could he meaningfully say that would add value at this point? If he backs hoops/hats people will moan , if he doesn't back them he will be undermining them.

He could say he is resigning, that would add value and please a lot of people..

he could say this. See Offy:

[www.bathrugby.com]

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

I withdraw my comment. Communication via Tarquins latest update is appreciated and I understand its absence from the matchday programme.

Actually a half decent read ui thought. Acceptance that elements of our game just aren't up to scratch.

Ed G wouldn't have been my choice but at least they are doing something and bringing in another pair of eyes.

Not so keen on referencing the missing players, all clubs are often missing double figures of players during autumn. We are suffering a bit worse than many but not to the point where we should use it as an excuse. Wasps tomorrow missing a a not dissimilar number.

All in all a worthwhile update I think.

Paralysis by analysis..................lots and lots of reviews and analysis............however rugby is played off the cuff by quick thinking players.

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
Paralysis by analysis..................lots and lots of reviews and analysis............however rugby is played off the cuff by quick thinking players.

I get your point but good clubs/players make it look like that.

Nick Evans talks about people saying quins just play off the cuff but they do tonnes of analysis and work in training to make it appear that way. He implied that is underestimated and under valued

Quote:

Jon Chess
I hope I’m wrong but this could be another humping. Long season indeed. Still, no relegation this season.

It really doesn’t matter what happens tomorrow in terms of the result, I’m just hoping it doesn’t rain and no Bath players get injured.

Quote:

charlieboa
Actually a half decent read ui thought. Acceptance that elements of our game just aren't up to scratch.
Ed G wouldn't have been my choice but at least they are doing something and bringing in another pair of eyes.

Not so keen on referencing the missing players, all clubs are often missing double figures of players during autumn. We are suffering a bit worse than many but not to the point where we should use it as an excuse. Wasps tomorrow missing a a not dissimilar number.

All in all a worthwhile update I think.

Agree about the reference to missing players, it’s almost like get your excuses in first !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Quote:

Grumpy_Uncle _Iroh
I withdraw my comment. Communication via Tarquins latest update is appreciated and I understand its absence from the matchday programme.

Fair do's G_U_I. Gracious post.

PG

Although it’s an obvious thing to say when you’re on a losing streak, this really is the perfect game for us to find enough grit and nous to get a win. Bookies have shortened the odds on Wasps following team announcements, but if our forwards can get anywhere close to parity up front then I really like the look of our back division with Cips and JJ bringing some “X Factor” in the final quarter of the game. If we don’t find a way to win this then looking at other fixtures today there could be a real split in the table to the bottom 3. Travelling in optimism as always and Bath by 7. COYB!

I have money on wasps to win by 11-15 but fairly hopeful of losing that money for positive reasons

Quote:

charlieboa
I have money on wasps to win by 11-15 but fairly hopeful of losing that money for positive reasons

Do they have odds for time of Wasps try bonus?

TdG try!!

Converted

10 v 10

Boycie off injured

Not really sure how it's a 3pt game at half time. Feels.like we have been hanging on. A few bright spots but generally ended with school boy errors.

Have lost the ref, particularly in the scrum.

Was a good score by TdG but why Bailey went to hit the corner flag only to kick it dead from the penalty when he's just about on the 5 is beyond me. It was an easy 3.

It's better than it has been, though

Red card for Williams.

That kind of hit is a red all day long

Wasps try. 20-10 to them

65 mins. Yellow for Bath. 13 vs 15 score is still 20-10 Wasps

Quote:

charlieboa
I have money on wasps to win by 11-15 but fairly hopeful of losing that money for positive reasons

Unfortunately...

Another try for Wasps ..... Hooper tripe machine is being warmed up or may send out a youngster to cop his flack.

68mins Wasps try. 27-10

Hooper out

Oh good, we're off to Tigers.

We are so fortunate that relegation is not happening this season . How many matches will we lose until there’s a change at Coaching ?

Jon Chess

Yes, Tigers next!! They looked amazing today in crushing Saints .

Jon Chess

Great skill and finish by Roko for that try. 17-27 75mins

Nothing will happen this week. Something will have to change after next week.

After keeping that to 10pts and playing with men down vs the Wasps xv for large parts of that second half, nothing will change unless we get absolutely humped next week

More injuries, Tigers up next, perpetual waste of a HC qualification, not looking good for us for a long while. The Prem Cup might give us a reprieve, assuming we can get enough people on to the pitch (and for once, keep them on there).

What did Mike Williams do to get another red card?
So absolutely screwed in the second row department for the new few weeks now.

Any positives?

Quote:

Dorset Boy
What did Mike Williams do to get another red card?
So absolutely screwed in the second row department for the new few weeks now.

Any positives?

Went to clear out Gopperth at a ruck. Gopperth was bent at 90 degrees. Williams came running in, hit him and arms wrapped under the chin. Was a head shot, no mitigation and was avoidable we're the words Tempest used.

Positives: TdG had a few nice runs, Roko's finish for his try. Max Clarke looked alright in the first half ... That's about it, I think.

Our front 5 players for Welford Rd likely to be schoeman du toit rae mcnally richards, cordwell dunn verden and someone who has possibly played lock at some stage in their life if there is one (maybe ellis will be back, or maybe eng will realise picking ewels would be bizarre).

Next week's bet is leic by 50.... genuinely think it could be as ugly as the sarries game.

Sorry simply not good enough. Enough excuses.

Pathetic. We look like, at best, a championship side. No cohesion. No structure. No brains. No discipline. Some fight but such a shame to see players of talent being wasted like this.

Wasps weren’t very good at all but they were plenty good enough to put us away at home.

I’m struggling to see when we’ll win a game.

I don't like to single out individual players for criticism but to my mind Mike Williams is an absolute liability. He seems to lack the necessary temperament and makes very rash decisions under very little pressure. The fact we are so reliant on him at the moment makes this even more pronounced and to have done what he did today in these circumstances is borderline unforgivable I think.

Back from the game. Not a terrible performance, and cheered by how the tries were taken

A weird sensation that I expected next to nothing from this game, so feel sanguine about it all. I've had a nice afternoon, mostly in the sun!

But then I think about the table and can't help but wonder if there's ever been a precedent for a team not called London Welsh or Rotherham or such to have this bad a start in the Premiership

When will we win again, I don't know.

Then the fear starts to set in as to what this is doing to our talented young players (a good crop the like we've waited a while for) and our chances of retaining them

Quote:

malco
I don't like to single out individual players for criticism but to my mind Mike Williams is an absolute liability. He seems to lack the necessary temperament and makes very rash decisions under very little pressure.

+1

Journeyman at best.

Quote:

malco
The fact we are so reliant on him at the moment makes this even more pronounced and to have done what he did today in these circumstances is borderline unforgivable I think.

Totally agree. With bells on. And knobs. But the the fact we are so reliant on him at the moment isn't really on him, as mentioned by others on another thread we knew that we would be this short of locks about a year ago. The fact that the DOR was a lock is rubbing salt into the wound.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

supermarinematt

Quote:

Dorset Boy
What did Mike Williams do to get another red card?
So absolutely screwed in the second row department for the new few weeks now.

Any positives?

Went to clear out Gopperth at a ruck. Gopperth was bent at 90 degrees. Williams came running in, hit him and arms wrapped under the chin. Was a head shot, no mitigation and was avoidable we're the words Tempest used.

Positives: TdG had a few nice runs, Roko's finish for his try. Max Clarke looked alright in the first half ... That's about it, I think.

Saw Gopperth in an ambulance as i left the rec early (again), he was sat up and talking to the paramedics so hope he is fine and without injury.

There were a few positives today sadly, but not enough to win a game...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

As a Wasp I thought your boys hassled and harassed us to such an extend that we lost control and composure...full credit to you, as when you went to 14, then 13, then 14 you looked the better team ,and made us look like Rabbits in headlights.

Williams is an example of what we are trying to erase from our game....I hope he gets a significant ban for that. But the rest of your team did you proud.

As an outsider looking in, the talent and squad is there, it is the direction and unity that is not at present. If your coaches can overcome this you will start moving up the table!

I look forward to seeing you at the CBS!

Chris/Wombles

Once a Wasp ALWAYS a Wasp.

Having been at the game and watched yer another inept performance, I get home and read Hoopers assessment.

More absolute tosh from him - would rather he didn't comment than revert to the same rhetoric "feeling the pain together" "learn from our mistakes" & "We were a bit inaccurate at times" - how much longer do we have to hear this C**P.

I really do not know how we turn this around now, like a cancer that has been left untreated and excuses given - it is spreading and consuming every part of our team - top that with players are going down like the Titanic - now suspension to one of our two available locks - can see the way things are going us forfeiting matches soon.

Utter total embarrassment. Welcome Mr Griffiths.

It's OK the Griffiths whitewash , sorry report , will cure everything .

Nothing can stop the Duke of Earl

Positive performances from de Glanville, Ojomoh, du Toit, Reid, Bayliss. Cipriani did well second half.
Deserved at least a LBP with that second half effort but when you're down it's tough.
Need Spencer back ASAP.

We have some great players but we have gone backwards in scrummaging, lineouts, defence, attack is good at times but needs more vision to create space, and discipline is pitiful with the amount of pens we give away. Regret all is not good in the State of Bath and confidence is at a low. What is needed is a return of confidence levels, more direction from the coaches on discipline and returning to our scrum and line out dominance.

Over to you Ed!

Agree Coochie.
The red card changed the game, so we will never know how what at that point was a close contest would have played out with 15-a- side, but for all the attacking positives, too much had to be played from well behind the gainline.

Lineout malfunctioned and scrum was outplayed - you cannot base an attack game on such a weak platform.

That said, I was not convinced at all by some of the scrum penalty decisions.

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:30:21:41:47 by P G Tips.

Wasps fan. The player I can never see adding much for Bath is McNally. He is consistently out powered. Defensively Bath are far too easy to score against and have been for a while. I’m not a fan of criticising DoR’s but it is now obvious that Hooper is out of his depth - looks startled at what is happening. Nothing will change whilst he’s still in charge.

Back from my first game at the Rec in a while. We were poor and I’m dreading Leicester..

We miss a couple of players that can break the gain line to give us a platform to play quickly off and help give parity in the pack. Reid and Bayliss try hard and are class but I think they lack balance without someone like Coetzee.

TDG is a class act. Mojo is developing nicely and we need to make sure we sign him up. Muir is so good and made a quality break in the second half and Roko’s finish was top drawer.

Our back line has so much potential and will really fire if we sort our pack out.

Finally - Whilst I want Hooper out and believe he is massively out of his depth I can’t see Bruce pulling the trigger yet.

The radio commentary implied de carpentier had a decent game- fair?

Am I misremembering or have beno, dunn and williams all been sent off twice in the last year? If so that is some going....

Shame cips got the conversion as I had money on us to lose by 11-15 which would have taken the edge off another loss.

Hard to see a meaningful win any time soon but we are already out of the mix to achieve anything this season anyhow....

Good to hear some guys continuing to step up like mojo and tdg.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:30:21:39:19 by charlieboa.

Quote:

charlieboa
The radio commentary implied de carpentier had a decent game- fair?

Very solid I thought

He seems to know his positioning, which would always be a concern with 7s players, so looking forward to seeing what more he can offer

I was impressed by de Carpentier (or Chippy as Will Muir was calling him. Solid performance, plenty of work completed.

TdG OB and the 2 Maxes in midfield did OK, but we still struggle to convert red zone time into points.

Away to Tiggs could be hideous.

Just watched the game. We are a curates egg of a side - good in parts. The backs (with OB2 leading them) look really good. The back row is excellent in a lightweight, open, running rugby sort of way. And then there's the front five. We started the season a lock and a tight head light and, inevitably, that weakness has been exacerbated by injuries. I didn't think we played badly but we didn't play like we knew how to win. Hope is not a plan.

MotM - TdG. Everything that was good about our game. If Eddie is serious about how he apparently wants England to play in the run up to RWC2023, TdG is going to play for England before too long.

The Tigs game is going to be an ugly experience. We have no props or locks or a heavy back row against a Tigs pack which has rediscovered its mojo. Plus we'll have Kay and Healey "commentating". What's the lowest number of players we've ever had on the field at the end of the game?

Can I be the first to say that I blame EdwardG?

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:31:05:07:40 by joethefanatic.

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

malco
I don't like to single out individual players for criticism but to my mind Mike Williams is an absolute liability. He seems to lack the necessary temperament and makes very rash decisions under very little pressure.

+1

Journeyman at best.

Quote:

malco
The fact we are so reliant on him at the moment makes this even more pronounced and to have done what he did today in these circumstances is borderline unforgivable I think.

Totally agree. With bells on. And knobs. But the the fact we are so reliant on him at the moment isn't really on him, as mentioned by others on another thread we knew that we would be this short of locks about a year ago. The fact that the DOR was a lock is rubbing salt into the wound.

Nail. Head. We have multiple players who have been sent off more than once in the last year. It becomes hard to put it down to bad luck rather than bad judgement, bad technique and bad coaching.

Williams is a good example of how succession planning should work and where we should reap the benefit of a good academy.

We now have richards and staddon who can play 6 and lock. They both look class and will be 20 by the end of the season. I see no reason to retain williams when those two combined probably take us less cap.

Even if they really kick on and deserve a higher salary in a few years then you get academy credits.

Quote:

A.M 180

Quote:

charlieboa
The radio commentary implied de carpentier had a decent game- fair?

Very solid I thought

He seems to know his positioning, which would always be a concern with 7s players, so looking forward to seeing what more he can offer

Thanks a.m 180 (and KS).

On radio briz he has sounded like a bright spot both last week and yest.

Maybe benefiting from not being in the bath environment and being coached by us for long!

It's interesting he can pick things up quickly and turn in good performances where others seem to struggle despite being in the set up for much longer. Lots of reference to his good character and interviews well- slightly more interesting than many, enjoyed his one last week talking about the skill levels required in 7s and how there is nowhere to hide.

De carpentier was very busy as were a number of other players. If only effort was enough to win games we’d be top if the league.

I have nothing but admiration for this group of young players, but too often they are running around like headless chickens as they have not been prepared properly for the game.

The thing that irritated me most yesterday was Wasps first try after a couple of minutes. Simple cross kick to 2 unmarked players to stroll in. Seems like the players were sent out with the instructions to run around a bit and see what happens.

Like most I went expecting us to get beaten by 10 or 20 points, not really caring after all our season is over at the end of October with no relegation. I enjoyed watching a game dispassionately, but got fed up with the length of time it took to form every line out, both sides were to blame and the referee, they all seemed happy to stroll through the game without anyone really seeming to want to be there and made the ticket price a joke.

Some nice touches but both teams just wanted to get it over and go home. Next week won't be so easy, taking on Tigers in their current form will really be interesting to watch. Shame we might be ruining a really good crop of young players by our current coaching deficiencies, doesn't Bruce have a duty of care to these guys to give them competent coaching?

With all the rubbish going on it is worth acknowledging that Dave Williams seems to be making a noticeable difference to our attacking play. Whatever else happens I do hope we retain him.

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Bath Hammer
With all the rubbish going on it is worth acknowledging that Dave Williams seems to be making a noticeable difference to our attacking play. Whatever else happens I do hope we retain him.

From an incredibly low base I am inclined to agree. Some nice moments despite us being consistently on the back foot which makes it so tough.

I also think personality wise he provides some balance- hoops hoops hats come across as fairly dour characters. Not an issue in itself and maybe I am being unfair. Williams just seems to excude some positivity , passion and offers up less clichés and more insight. Crucially he is also very experienced in the role.

As will all these things I think balance of the personalities is key. I think another really inspiring , interesting coach challenging and invigorating the players in their attitude towards defence would give us a huge boost (in the mould of gustard/sanderson and the wolfpack ideology). We can't go on averaging over 4 tries conceded per game and just bumble on thinking hats will turn it around.

On the length a match now takes, football matches tend to last about 95 minutes, based on two 45 minute halves.
Rugby matches seem to take about 95 minutes based on two 40 minute halves.
The authorities really need to sort this out - there are far too many long breaks in play as 20 extras coe and go on the pitch.
I'd only allow 2 water carriers per team, plus 2 physios and 1 doctor. No one else allowed to enter the field of play.
I'd also get Luke Pearce to teach the other refs how to speed up the game.

Quote:

Bath Hammer
With all the rubbish going on it is worth acknowledging that Dave Williams seems to be making a noticeable difference to our attacking play. Whatever else happens I do hope we retain him.

Couldn't disagree more, I saw nothing watching from my seat yesterday that made me think our attack had any structure. Our players constantly received the ball standing still and only individual skill gave us line breaks. I agree it's not the worst aspect of our game, but it's never going to unlock a decent defence.

On another point, any reason why Tempest decided to ignore Wasps being offside all afternoon?

No reason at all OB - he just did.

PG

Williams deserves a chance I think he has made a difference very small but what do we expect after what he has walked into and the short time he has been here.

I do not however believe Williams red card was the difference. I personally had the same view as the media - Lee Blackett must have been wondering how his side were only up by 3 points at half time, it felt like they were camped in our half the entire first half, we were hanging on the entire game.

I also believe we have positives in the youngsters and De Carpentier played very well, my concern is our Bath men true and true players such as Tom Dunn seems to be a shell - that to me speaks volumes about the state of our club and if I were Ed Griffiths I would be speaking frankly to him about the problems at our club.

We are not the first team to be in this position and we won’t be the last. There is only one way to resolve this mess and I cannot understand why Bruce, as a businessman, cannot pull the trigger. Hooper seems to be a very nice man, but realistically how many top level teams would want him if he was available? I don’t want rugby to become like football but I think the current setup have had a fair crack.

Had we taken 3 points at 37mins we might have gone in at h/time 13 all. In the first few mins of the 2nd half we spurned another kick at goal and could have been leading 16-13. The bone headed decision not to do either of these things was the final straw for me. I don't know if it's on or off field decision-making but either way it's unforgivable in a backs against the wall match...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Quote:

Clarkey3k
Had we taken 3 points at 37mins we might have gone in at h/time 13 all. In the first few mins of the 2nd half we spurned another kick at goal and could have been leading 16-13. The bone headed decision not to do either of these things was the final straw for me. I don't know if it's on or off field decision-making but either way it's unforgivable in a backs against the wall match...

+1

zero onfield leadership yesterday and turning down the kick before 1/2 time was just stupid given how poor our lineout is.

Comment from Healey before the Quins/Sarries game was along the lines of Bath have a good squad with exciting young players and the problem is at the top. When asked how long before changes should be made he said "why wait".

Quote:

Overlap Knock-on
We are not the first team to be in this position and we won’t be the last. There is only one way to resolve this mess and I cannot understand why Bruce, as a businessman, cannot pull the trigger. Hooper seems to be a very nice man, but realistically how many top level teams would want him if he was available? I don’t want rugby to become like football but I think the current setup have had a fair crack.

Kind of what I posted elsewhere. If you were to go down the leagues offering Hooper and Hatley at what point would a club go "yes please, much better than what we currently have"?

As I see it, the Griffiths report is the mechanism to 'release' the appropriate personnel

No consultant like Griffiths will want the reputation of being the 'hired gun' but the findings along with the discreet, verbal feedback will surely identify the solutions. And then Bruce and Tarquin can fairly say it is with a heavy heart and only after a lot of time and support provided and following an independent, impartial inquiry regretfully etc... but we are indebted to X for all hard work and commitment to the club .. etc ... and wish him/them every success in the future

Gaz, your last paragraph above reminded me of Yes Minister...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Until our pack get parity we are never going to win a match.

I am afraid at the moment we are not going to win a game this season.........

Took our tries well but our defence in the build up to Willis scoring was pathetic...

Quote:

gaz59
As I see it, the Griffiths report is the mechanism to 'release' the appropriate personnel
No consultant like Griffiths will want the reputation of being the 'hired gun' but the findings along with the discreet, verbal feedback will surely identify the solutions. And then Bruce and Tarquin can fairly say it is with a heavy heart and only after a lot of time and support provided and following an independent, impartial inquiry regretfully etc... but we are indebted to X for all hard work and commitment to the club .. etc ... and wish him/them every success in the future

Yep. The only question is whether EdG has already been instructed on what to find or whether he will do a modicum of research before concluding the bleeding obvious. But this is really not a good signal for us as a club. I've seen this so many times in my line of work (which also happened to be Bruce's) and it is always deeply troubling when the top levels of an organisation will not take ownership of difficult decisions but hand them off to a convenient consultant instead.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Quote:

Shugs
Wasps fan. The player I can never see adding much for Bath is McNally. He is consistently out powered.

Genuinely could not disagree more, one of our most consistent performers on the pitch, leader and very rarely 'out powered'. Bath are very lucky to have him.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

joethefanatic
I've seen this so many times in my line of work (which also happened to be Bruce's) and it is always deeply troubling when the top levels of an organisation will not take ownership of difficult decisions but hand them off to a convenient consultant instead.

I've seen this too and agree whole heartedly, it's not a good look. The time to do a review like this would have been after Todd B left and before appointing Hoops but that's all water under the Pulteney Bridge...

Looking back on last season's results we lost 7 of our first 8 games with only an away win at Wuss for our efforts and we don't play them until 9th Jan22...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

[quote Clarkey3k][quote joethefanatic]I've seen this so many times in my line of work (which also happened to be Bruce's) and it is always deeply troubling when the top levels of an organisation will not take ownership of difficult decisions but hand them off to a convenient consultant instead.[/quote]

I've seen this too and agree whole heartedly, it's not a good look. The time to do a review like this would have been after Todd B left and before appointing Hoops but that's all water under the Pulteney Bridge...

I’ve seen it too when the management bring in a consultant to tell them what “everyone else already knows”. However there are a couple of things that make this less of what you termed a bad look.
The management may not be receptive to the best course of action from anyone else.
The consultant may get information that Joe public doesn’t have.
There may be several potential ways forward he can independently recommend the best one.

At least something may now get done even if the fans don’t know what it is/was if it works I’ll be happy,

It seems that Tarquin was the advocate for Hooper as DoR and Bruce was intitally unconvinced. Then Hatley was brought in as Forwards and Defence Coach in Nov 2019, but not appointed to Head Coach until August 2020. What was going on there? That was covid year, so that sort of explains it.

It would seem that Tarquin has not thrown Hooper under the bus and Hooper ditto Hatley, so if those three are still all in the same boat, I can see why Bruce wants someone external to stir things up a bit. Bruce seems to have learned from experience that swapping people in and out based on his perspective hasnt worked.

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

Shugs
Wasps fan. The player I can never see adding much for Bath is McNally. He is consistently out powered.

Genuinely could not disagree more, one of our most consistent performers on the pitch, leader and very rarely 'out powered'. Bath are very lucky to have him.

Totally agree, and a good captain in my opinion!

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

I just watched the interview with De Carpentier, it's quite unusual. He seems to be saying that nobody knows what the problem is as if everyone in the team/squad is scratching their heads to work out what it is. I've always thought it was the DOr/Coaches job to identify that and then the players need to execute to address the issues.

Maybe as someone else said he's quite a thoughtful guy?

Along with Mike Williams , Steve Middleton - Kit manager , up for disciplinary tomorrow for something said to Mr Tempest , anybody know what was said ? Here

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
Along with Mike Williams , Steve Middleton - Kit manager , up for disciplinary tomorrow for something said to Mr Tempest , anybody know what was said ? Here

Oh dear, that’s not a very good look is it! And following the two Wasps coaches that got a ban for the actions against Exeter just a few weeks ago. [www.coventrytelegraph.net]
Not sure if there have been many others, but the growing number of people coming on to the field does seem to make this a possibility unless discipline is tightly enforced.

It’s irritating when we get an invasion of “water boys” coming onto the pitch every time there is a break in play. At one point on Saturday there was 10 of them on the pitch!

Aside from the medics none of them should be allowed on the pitch unless invited to do so by the ref.

Quote:

CoochieCoo

Watching the highlights, it's just really poor defensive errors.

1. Fifita's try: Great work by Clark to get back and make the tackle, but Roko got caught ball watching when he could have easily tackled Fifita. I think they would have still scored because they seemed to get supporting players there faster than our defenders. We stacked the blindside with a 5 on 3, so they had a numerical advantage anyways.

2. Oghre's try: Either McNally or Carpentier picks the wrong man. McNally seems to bite in on shields even though Du Toit is getting across, and Carpentier is marking the guy out the back, leaving Oghre untouched. Fox is in the defensive line again, and it doesn't look like anyone is sweeping. The try looked identical to McGuigan's score against us a few weeks back, again one mistake in the defensive line is punished by a try because we don't have a sweeper.

3. Willis's try: Carr gets to the outside of Schoeman and makes a really good run into the Bath line. 3 or 4 very fast rucks later they score. Carr's break was because we didn't have a receiver in the lineout who would have tackled him. Green had just come onto the pitch, maybe there was a miscommunication, and it was sheer luck that Wasps decided to run this play.

One thing I had noticed, is that we don't seem to have anyone sweeping behind the defensive line. It looks like Fox is joining the line periodically. And this is really hurting us in phase play when their attacking shape breaks down or they get an offload away as the line gets dog legged and the holes aren't plugged.

One note on the TdG try, jeez rugby can be a pleasingly simple game.

Tail ball at the lineout, first receiver (Mojo) with a step beats the gain line, quick ball because no defending forwards can get back to the ruck, pass out to the outside centre, classic fullback line coming at pace against a reorganising defence, line break, gas, try.

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hasta
line break, gas, try.

serious gas, that young man was flying.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Watched the whole match replay, my thoughts..

ill-discipline put us under pressure for all Wasps scores. Defensive errors then let them in. We have to stop giving away so many damn penalties and then defence won't look so fragile.

I thought our attack was, for the most part, excellent. I can see when everything comes together we will have an exciting brand of rugby that most teams will find it hard to play against.