HELL FOR LEATHER, BATH v NORTHAMPTON

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:26:10:16:38 by P G Tips.

Great preview as always PG - insightful and interesting. (but I can't see Bailey replacing himself)

Thanks hemington.
I guess I'll have to give the job to Cipriani then!

PG

Saints thoughts [m.rugbynetwork.net] and injury update [m.rugbynetwork.net]
No Lawes (hand injury), Biggar has his hearing on Wednesday but probably inevitably banned for this game.

Was wondering what form James Grayson was in, I guess we will see now, my concern is the midfield pairing of Hutchinson and Dingwall but Dingwall might not be fit. Ollie Sleightholme might be in the frame. If Mojo is fit wouldn't it be fascinating if Ollie and Max are on the pitch when their fathers' played together all those years ago?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Great title there PG, very clever and loved the reference to "cobblers" sneaked in. Take a bow

Quote:

shendy
Saints thoughts [m.rugbynetwork.net] and injury update [m.rugbynetwork.net]
No Lawes (hand injury), Biggar has his hearing on Wednesday but probably inevitably banned for this game.

Lawes injury sounds serious and as you say, Shendy, Biggar unlikely to escape a ban.

PG

Quote:

P G Tips

Quote:

shendy
Saints thoughts [m.rugbynetwork.net] and injury update [m.rugbynetwork.net]
No Lawes (hand injury), Biggar has his hearing on Wednesday but probably inevitably banned for this game.

Lawes injury sounds serious and as you say, Shendy, Biggar unlikely to escape a ban.

PG

Considering how often Biggar hits upright its amazing this is his first red card to be honest.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Does he 'hit' upright? Or is it more of a 'stand in the way' kind of technique? Ford pretty much never tackles low in the classical way either - he just stands there and grabs something, but he rarely seems in danger of a head clash.

Isn't Ford much more of what is described as a 'passive' tackler? The attacker gets over the gainline but the aim of the tackle is simply to stop a line break for bigger, beefier team mates to arrive and contest or slowdown the ball at the breakdown?

That's the one - is Biggar much different to that? I don't really recall him sprinting into tackles like Farrell. Probably just appears less passive than Ford because he weighs a few stone more.

Biggar banned for the usual 3 weeks (2 if he takes the naughty boys' course).

It’s pretty much the standard technique for 10s, Wilkinson hit hardest but Farrell, Bailey, Priestland similar.
Cipriani has an alternative in that the attacker has to run into him first before he gets away!
Biggar doesn’t shirk the physical though so it’s to his credit he keeps his head out of the way.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked
It’s pretty much the standard technique for 10s, Wilkinson hit hardest but Farrell, Bailey, Priestland similar.
Cipriani has an alternative in that the attacker has to run into him first before he gets away!
Biggar doesn’t shirk the physical though so it’s to his credit he keeps his head out of the way.

Yes Lewis Moody came to coach my sons team maybe a decade ago and said Wilkinson was the hardest tackler he ever faced which is not bad for a 10 on a flanker

Wilkinson's podcast as well as his interview with Ranjan Chatterjee are a remarkable insight into his psyche - the way that he immediately came off the pitch having won the RWC and felt so unhappy despite having reached the pinnacle of his career and every rugby player's dream

Both are a fantastic listen and incredible learning points for life

Didn't Biggar get away with a clear shoulder to the head a couple of matches back?
The surprise is this was his first red as in reality he probably should have been serving a ban from the previous one.

There was an almost similar incident in our previous game where he tackled Semi R - the difference being Semi is a little taller and got the best of the impact, perhaps shouldn't make a difference but does.

Biggar certainly isn't the only 10 or player in general to use the technique, the main difference with Farrell is the aggression or force. Regardless he does need to change technique as it always risks a high hit or head to head. Ford gets away with it purely because he's shorter so in most cases his head height is lower than the ball carrier!

In any case Biggar not available when we play you, nor is Courtney which is probably a bigger loss despite having a few other options in the back row. Debate as to whether we're likely to see Furbank move to 10 again or stay at 15 with Grayson coming into 10. Either way I suspect as usual it will come down to whether we can match you up front.

None of them have got a patch on the Butch Shoulder Technique(TM).

Quote:

Rawce
None of them have got a patch on the Butch Shoulder Technique(TM).

Its a harsh yellow

[www.youtube.com]

Thats almost as bad as his acting in Deadpool and the Green Lantern.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

"White card"?

Quote:

Mike the Taxi
"White card"?

Like an on field citing!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Rugby League would call it going 'on report'

Team's Up.Reid returns.

Head Coach Neal Hatley has made four changes to the starting XV for Bath Rugby’s Gallagher Premiership match against Northampton Saints on Saturday.

Miles Reid returns to the back row for the first time since captain the Blue, Black and White to victory against Newcastle Falcons at the end of February.

Joining him in the pack is Mike Williams who locks down next to captain Charlie Ewels. The front row remains consistent for the third game running while Josh Bayliss and Taulupe retain their spots at blindside flanker and Number 8 respectively.

In the backs, Danny Cipriani comes in for a start at fly-half with Will Muir the other addition to the backline.

Wing Muir lines up in the back three alongside Semesa Rokoduguni and Tom de Glanville. The trio have 15 tries between them this season.

Ben Spencer is named as vice-captain from scrum-half. Max Clark and Jonathan Joseph continue in the centre.

South African back row Jaco Coetzee is back in the 23 for the first time since the home win over Bristol Bears.

Bath Rugby team to play Northampton Saints

15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Semesa Rokoduguni, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Clark, 11 Will Muir, 10 Danny Cipriani, 9 Ben Spencer; 1 Valeriy Morozov, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Mike Williams, 5 Charlie Ewels ©, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Miles Reid, 8 Taulupe Faletau

Replacements

16 Jacques du Toit, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Ewan Richards, 20 Jaco Coetzee, 21 Joe Simpson, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Joe Cokanasiga

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Great to see Reid back and Coetzee on the bench. Bit worried about absences of Boyce and Mojo.

Northampton Saints team news

15 Tommy Freeman
14 Ollie Sleightholme
13 Matt Proctor
12 Rory Hutchinson
11 Tom Collins
10 George Furbank
9 Alex Mitchell

1 Alex Waller
2 Sam Matavesi
3 Paul Hill
4 Alex Coles
5 Api Ratuniyarawa
6 Lewis Ludlam (c)
7 Teimana Harrison
8 Juarno Augustus

Replacements:
16 Mike Haywood
17 Emmanuel Iyogun
18 Conor Carey
19 Alex Moon
20 Brandon Nansen
21 Tom James
22 James Grayson
23 Piers Francis

11:59

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Quote:

hasta
Great to see Reid back and Coetzee on the bench. Bit worried about absences of Boyce and Mojo.

Mojo is a mystery, why no news?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Without Biggar and Lawes I'm giving us half a chance but still can't see it.

Hoping the experience of Cipriani and Spencer to outsmart their up and coming counterparts (stopped short of whippersnappers as I see both Mitchell and Furbank are mid 20s now).

Underhill and Spencer injured?

Quote:

Barfboy
Without Biggar and Lawes I'm giving us half a chance but still can't see it.

The bookies have 2 points in it.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

No lawes and ribbans is huge loss for us. Think this will be a very tight game

Quote:

Saint dolph
No lawes and ribbans is huge loss for us. Think this will be a very tight game

Don't worry, we have an uncanny ability to lose the high games! If it all goes to plan we will be 24 points up at half time before losing to a late try probably by Ollie Sleightholme, which will restart a family feud with his dad.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

Saint dolph
No lawes and ribbans is huge loss for us. Think this will be a very tight game

Don't worry, we have an uncanny ability to lose the high games! If it all goes to plan we will be 24 points up at half time before losing to a late try probably by Ollie Sleightholme, which will restart a family feud with his dad.

So long as dad doesn't start singing that gawd awful Bath rugby song in retribution - that would make family reconciliation impossible!

So we start with Williams at lock who so many on here say is too lightweight. Also our replacement props are considered by some to be the equivalent of 4th/5th choices so we can look forward to the pack imploding yet again.!

Surprised not to see Will Spencer in there. I think he has made a major difference in the last few games. Assume he must have another knock. Likewise Underhill. There's no argument for keeping him back for bigger games at this point. And why is Cokanasiga benched? Very odd.

Quote:

Malco
Surprised not to see Will Spencer in there. I think he has made a major difference in the last few games. Assume he must have another knock. Likewise Underhill. There's no argument for keeping him back for bigger games at this point. And why is Cokanasiga benched? Very odd.

Sam Underhill has to have some mandatory rest periods after internationals I think - is it one of them?

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Assume spencer has a knock otherwise v odd.

Appreciate it would be jolly nice to not finish last but is there any point playing faletau ahead of coetzee. Clark ahead of butt/Venter if mojo out? Morozov fair enough I guess otherwise cordwell has to play with an underpowered second row again

I would prefer to finish 13th than 12th if it sets us up better for next season.

Quote:

charlieboa
Assume spencer has a knock otherwise v odd.
Appreciate it would be jolly nice to not finish last but is there any point playing faletau ahead of coetzee. Clark ahead of butt/Venter if mojo out? Morozov fair enough I guess otherwise cordwell has to play with an underpowered second row again

I would prefer to finish 13th than 12th if it sets us up better for next season.

I'm a bit conflicted on this CB, in a way I think that the less next season's players are exposed to the current coaching message and it seems losses the better. They get rest and are not exposed to injury risk. Guys like Underhill and Baylis have nothing to prove and attritional positions like 8 benefit from not being whacked around.

What good does match fitness do with nothing to play for followed by no matches in the summer?

As for league position fighting to go one position in the table higher is only relevant on 3 occasions:

1) To avoid relegation.
2) To qualify for the Champions Cup.
3) To qualify for the playoffs.

Otherwise it's all a bit pointless.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

charlieboa
I would prefer to finish 13th than 12th if it sets us up better for next season.

On my phone screen, when i look at the league table, it only has room for the first 12 places. I have a momentary feeling of, 'oh brilliant, we must have climbed off the bottom', only to be hit by the realisation that we aren't just bottom of the table, but we are bottom of the expanded table.

Defo agree SW on taking big players who have played lots out of the firing line now. What is to be gained- bad injury and they miss ore season and start of season potentially.

Also young guys who have played a fair bit for their age and already proved everything we need to know.

Would have thought the coaches would be keen to get more sight of some guys going into next season given hoops/hats/charteris still about. Seems a perfect opp to give someone like a staddon a go in the 23 in amongst some good experienced players, or venter a run between cips and jj.

I have long given up trying to second guess what they are trying to achieve....roll on next season.

We may be at the wrong end of the league but tomorrow’s match will be a part of the history of our club. We’re playing one of the historically great teams in English rugby. No other incentive to do everything we can to win should be necessary.

What I don't get is our reluctance to name unavailable or rested players. Saints and many other teams clealry list who is unavailable but for some reason we do not - we started to mainly due to pressure from the fans but we have fallen back into our poor old media way's unless their is a cunning plan from the Blackadder school of cunningness behind it.

The upshot is as is shiown on here we a get annoyed with players who are not named in the match day XXIii second guessing the reason. Very frustrating.

Quote:

Optimist

Quote:

charlieboa
I would prefer to finish 13th than 12th if it sets us up better for next season.

On my phone screen, when i look at the league table, it only has room for the first 12 places. I have a momentary feeling of, 'oh brilliant, we must have climbed off the bottom', only to be hit by the realisation that we aren't just bottom of the table, but we are bottom of the expanded table.

Arent we at the top of the second page? That's something to be proud of!

Quote:

Ali1969
What I don't get is our reluctance to name unavailable or rested players. Saints and many other teams clealry list who is unavailable but for some reason we do not - we started to mainly due to pressure from the fans but we have fallen back into our poor old media way's unless their is a cunning plan from the Blackadder school of cunningness behind it.
The upshot is as is shiown on here we a get annoyed with players who are not named in the match day XXIii second guessing the reason. Very frustrating.

Ali, surely you must realise that's extremely valuable info or the opposing team. They will suddenly realise that one of our key players isn't available and between 12:00 and 3:00 tomorrow completely overhaul their gameplan and tactics, which they have been working on all week, to take advantage of that chink in our armour.
In reality we are a team that's not that difficult to beat and there job just got even easier!

Would it really be that difficult for the club to start engaging with fans and state if a player is either unavailable or not selected?

We don’t need to know the specific reason for a player being unavailable, it would just be nice to know why they aren’t in the match day 23.

There might be a number of reasons why a player's not selected that shouldn't necessarily be public knowledge. Perhaps a player didn't train that well/lacked focus, or another player in the position just looked livelier/sharper in training. Maybe a player is distracted one week by family issues for example. Some weeks the management team might just feel a player looks jaded and would benefit from a rest. Long term injuries and expected return dates are usually well publicised. I guess we want to be reassured that players like Mojo aren't being sidelined and seek explanations for selections we don't agree with, but I can also see that sometimes management make decisions/judgements that we just have to accept.

I know that historically some of the players didn't like it being announced. But I agree it's ridiculous. US sports handle this much better.

I just dont get the 'some weeks we will do it, some we wont' approach.

Agree that specifics shouldn't be gone into always but just say if they are unavailable.....can be for any reason....jaded, given a holiday, injured, family reasons...anything....

The NFL certainly had strict rules - if someone wasn't reported as injured after a game and missed the next one, there were repercussions. No idea if it's still as strict.
Mind you, that was basically because of gambling, got to have accurate info to set the spread - which is ironic given how anti-gambling everything used to be. In public at least, it was hugely influential behind the scenes!

Quote:

hasta
I know that historically some of the players didn't like it being announced. But I agree it's ridiculous. US sports handle this much better.

+1

All we need is "not selected" or "unavailable for selection", it really isn't that difficult. However for some reason Bath prefer to not to fully engage with fans on team selection matters.

Football has no problem with this issue at all either.

Saints use "not considered for selection". I'm not really sure what value there is in that to be honest

Quote:

OutsideBath
Would it really be that difficult for the club to start engaging with fans and state if a player is either unavailable or not selected?
We don’t need to know the specific reason for a player being unavailable, it would just be nice to know why they aren’t in the match day 23.

On the members' podcast Hats stated "Sam's got a tight muscle, Spence took a knock against Edinburgh."

He also made a slightly cryptic comment - "Max will be with us as a sort of travelling reserve. it's good to have him back."

Not sure if that implies an injury or if he was omitted previously for other reasons.

PG

Quote:

P G Tips

Quote:

OutsideBath
Would it really be that difficult for the club to start engaging with fans and state if a player is either unavailable or not selected?
We don’t need to know the specific reason for a player being unavailable, it would just be nice to know why they aren’t in the match day 23.

On the members' podcast Hats stated "Sam's got a tight muscle, Spence took a knock against Edinburgh."

He also made a slightly cryptic comment - "Max will be with us as a sort of travelling reserve. it's good to have him back."

Not sure if that implies an injury or if he was omitted previously for other reasons.

PG

That's Ojomoh I assume?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Yes

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Good Game! Good Game!

Radio Bristol Comms team bigging up DC for his first half performance. Bath leading with 5mins to half time....

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Ht

17 v 7

Really scared now, second half to come. ........ anything could happen


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Oh dear 17-12


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Try & conversion Bath, both by Spencer. DC limps off OB on. 24-12...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Bonus time!!

Ben Spencer special in off conversion of his try to take it to 24-12!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Yikes ........ whats going on!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Spencer scores another after great work by Muir. TBP Bath...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Quote:

shipwrecked
Ben Spencer special in off conversion of his try to take it to 24-12!

Is that an echo??

Spencer converts his try...31-12

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Wuss losing, we could be off the bottom by 5pm...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

I'm feeling a bit dizzy, substitution time critical last 15 minutes!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:23:16:28:50 by shipwrecked.

Serious injury to a Saints player, match stopped for 10-12 mins so far, stretchered off, hope he's okay...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Two quick Saints tries 31-24...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Bath fallen asleep! 31-24 Mitchell outstanding.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Penalty try Saints - 31 v 31 - Bath down to 13

Penalty try saints, 31 all...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

What to say?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Saints score at the death, 31-36...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

I'm afraid Bath have become parodies of themselves. Never fail to live up to expectations.

BBC Bristol radio link failed so switched to Northampton coverage. They can't believe what they have just witnessed, I can't believe it either. Baffling...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

I think I would prefer our guys up front to play out the game, as soon as we substitute anyone we collapse. Extremely embarrassing to lose to a Saint's team who couldn't get anything right. Comical.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Gutted. We unravelled so quickly once the subs started coming on…

Strength in depth of a thimble.

Staggering. Roll on the end of the season

At this rate everyone will 'game for the ages' against us...

From the Radio Bristol commentary, they were convinced the last move for the try was a knock on/lost forward. Anyone close enough to say otherwise?

Quote:

Mike the Taxi
From the Radio Bristol commentary, they were convinced the last move for the try was a knock on/lost forward. Anyone close enough to say otherwise?

Saints commentary said it was knocked forward by a Bath hand, no knock on then grounded by Haywood.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

TMO and Ref decided TV footage showed it was kicked through by the bath player on the wrong side, thus penalty advantage so the try stood.

If it was pretty lucky in my opinion. Could have gone either way.

My 75 year old Mum has suggested that the starting players should stay on the pitch for the last 15 minutes if the drop off to the subs is so great they can’t hold on to a lead like that… I have to say it seems worth a go!

Quote:

dcsh
My 75 year old Mum has suggested that the starting players should stay on the pitch for the last 15 minutes if the drop off to the subs is so great they can’t hold on to a lead like that… I have to say it seems worth a go!

I agree with your mum!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

charlieboa
Staggering. Roll on the end of the season

Unfortunately as things stand our front row replacements next season will be little better so this could continue!

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

charlieboa
Staggering. Roll on the end of the season

Unfortunately as things stand our front row replacements next season will be little better so this could continue!

It's a fair concern.

Hoping the reinforcements at lock may at least help a little

That 4th June match at Worcester looks even more likely to be for the wooden spoon judging by the teams we both have to play. The close season will be reduced in length which is a pity as so much work needs to be done.

[quote charlieboa][quote Bath Hammer]
Hoping the reinforcements at lock may at least help a little[/quote]

Although regularly criticised I thought Williams had a solid game & his departure seemed to coincide with the deterioration.

Quote:

Bath Hammer
That 4th June match at Worcester looks even more likely to be for the wooden spoon judging by the teams we both have to play. The close season will be reduced in length which is a pity as so much work needs to be done.

It's being moved to 14/5 BH at the request of both clubs. Not long to wait for the end of the season...

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

At least we could get the new name for the team sorted - The Bath 65ers.

Sadly not based on the year of creation, but the number of minutes the team can play...

Shocking capitulation, the drop off in replacements is unbelievable. How many games is that on the trot? I can’t see any more wins, the opposition will know we are at best a 60 minute team.

The long injury break killed us. Going forward with momentum when the game was stopped. Conceded a penalty at the restart scrum from which Saints went on to score. All downhill from there.

Quote:

dcsh
My 75 year old Mum has suggested that the starting players should stay on the pitch for the last 15 minutes if the drop off to the subs is so great they can’t hold on to a lead like that… I have to say it seems worth a go!

Your mum is a wise woman and Bath should bring her in for the half time tactic talk. Sounds like she's making more sense than anything said in the dressing room.

Quote:

Pop stand fan
The long injury break killed us. Going forward with momentum when the game was stopped. Conceded a penalty at the restart scrum from which Saints went on to score. All downhill from there.

Completely agree with this.

In the light of the lengthy rest though I don't understand why we had to make the replacements by numbers. The injury break took away our momentum and the replacements then failed to equal the levels of the players they replaced.

I have to say I think this was very poor tactical decision making at that stage of the game.

Worcester game is back to 4th June as Premier League clubs voted against it being brought forward

They always make replacements by numbers....pre conceived plans with no feel and empathy for the game.

Let's hope jvg is a better tactician and reader of the game!

I hope that the Saints player is ok. The medics rightly took their time and I was encouraged to see a fair bit of limb movement on the stretcher. Best wishes for a speedy recovery. It looked like it came from a side step from Bayliss, and possibly a head clash after missing the tackle?

To look on the brightside:
We scored in the second half
We scored 4 tries
We will be top of the table in August!

Seriously though, it is hugely depressing how we manage to lose from a clear winning position. You really shouldn't lose from 19 points up with 15 to go, and should not concede 24 unanswered points.

We are far too easy to score against. Teams will sense our soft underbelly & know they only have to step up the pressure & after two or three phases in the red zone we will capitulate.

Where would be without the Horse, he has been sensational this season and so effective ball in hand and stealing kick offs. He has put our big name wingers to shame but how on earth did we lose that game. The subs made no impact and how can an injury stoppage have such a detrimental impact on one.

Restart with a scrum Du Toit popped out the scrum like a champagne cork and that was it after that ref decided we were at fault but Rae and Cordwell both looked jaded but to be fair they have had a tough old season. Last weeks collapse was bad because we had the chance to play for a cup but today's was even worse as we allowed a 19 point lead be overturned. What could have been a great day at the rec in the sunshine turned sour in the space of 20 minutes.

so disappointing another emotional roller coaster.

Our defence is too passive in the final moments of games and the coaching should address that. They might not cross the whitewash every touch but you can't soak up phase after phase and not expect to break.

Likewise the substitutions (and the injury) knocked all the wind out of the team. There was still some leaders on the pitch but I do think that one was down to dubious management.

Most frustrating thing though is that it was obvious it was coming. I'd have been more surprised if we hadn't thrown it away.

Bring on next season, this one can't go soon enough.

At the end of the day it was no big deal and the weather wasn’t bad so happy days.

We already knew that Bath are a dreadful team and this reinforced that thought. We also learnt that Saints are also a poor team and if they scrape 4th place that’s effectively a free pass to the final for Leicester.

Have to question the mental toughness of the team though, all around us knew that from 31-12 with 20 mins to go we were likely to lose. Boy do we need a mind coach to sort the weaknesses out.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Boy do we need a mind coach to sort the weaknesses out.

I thought we took on one with a good reputation a few years ago but it didn’t seem to make much difference. Hopefully we have enough capable coaches joining us to instill good repeatable habits & the right tactics for the game situation.

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

OutsideBath
Boy do we need a mind coach to sort the weaknesses out.

I thought we took on one with a good reputation a few years ago but it didn’t seem to make much difference. Hopefully we have enough capable coaches joining us to instill good repeatable habits & the right tactics for the game situation.

Katie warriner?

V highly regarded but not much evidence of mental resilience in our on field performances.

Jvg I hope is licking his lips, starts at rock bottom and a chance to build something

Quote:

OutsideBath
At the end of the day it was no big deal and the weather wasn’t bad so happy days.
We already knew that Bath are a dreadful team and this reinforced that thought. We also learnt that Saints are also a poor team and if they scrape 4th place that’s effectively a free pass to the final for Leicester.

Have to question the mental toughness of the team though, all around us knew that from 31-12 with 20 mins to go we were likely to lose. Boy do we need a mind coach to sort the weaknesses out.

Saints were awful today. Nothing clicked for us and it was a very frustrating watch. We are not a poor team we are a tad inconsistent i will give you that but on our day we can put any team away. I bet tigers won't see us as a free pass .

Difficult to find the words to express the disappointment.

As soon as we unloaded the bench we simply collapsed. I accept that the injury break didn’t help.

Thought the backs in general performed well, Muir and Clark in particular. The loss of JMcN is hurting us, and another anonymous one from Faletau.

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

OutsideBath
Boy do we need a mind coach to sort the weaknesses out.

I thought we took on one with a good reputation a few years ago but it didn’t seem to make much difference. Hopefully we have enough capable coaches joining us to instill good repeatable habits & the right tactics for the game situation.

Yes the coaches for next season are better, but the pack is too small this season and is looking too small next season. Without a decent pack we will be bottom dwellers again.

Quote:

OutsideBath

Yes the coaches for next season are better, but the pack is too small this season and is looking too small next season. Without a decent pack we will be bottom dwellers again.

I fear you are correct OB

One more point though, I hate, hate, hate the double jeopardy that led to a yellow card for Coetzee. Absolute nonsense.

Just watched the game. We do find increasing baroque and unlikely ways to lose. Bath Rugby - Butchers to the Gentry. If we converted even 50% of the chances we create, we'd win a lot more games and have a lot less stress. On the upside we're making chances, so the problems with converting them should be fixable but its really annoying we haven't and its just teeth grindingly predictable that we'll lose concentration and concede. Another item on JvG's long list of stuff to fix.

Losing Josh Bayliss just after we'd made our last sub and then Coetzee to a yellow immediately after that was very unlucky. I doubt any other team has had to play more minutes with 13 on the pitch than us. But poor sides are unlucky and my word we're very, very unlucky at the moment.

Our ambition to play from anywhere was excellent and Josh Bayliss, JJ and Max Clarke looked class.

My MotM - The man called Horse. On the scene of everything good we did.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:24:01:55:09 by joethefanatic.

Why take off so many players ?, Williams Cips , Spencer, bringing on Richards into the 2nd tow, he's too lightweight , keep the props on for longer,Dan Cole , Joe Marler regularly play the full 80 minutes, Bristol hooker the same on Friday night. Painful to see all go to pieces.

Mercer made some interesting points about bath losing a lot of their bigger characters who within the group I am guessing were pobably seen as leaders.

I would include him in that. He mentioned lahiff, judge, stooke , matavesi.....

Tbf in terms of performances on the pitch I think we only miss stooke and zach but maybe he has a point that we lack character and leadership through the squad which is what he seemed to imply.

My concern is hoops seems to move certain types of individuals out but maybe that is unfair. Zach certainly from about age 21 was often the man trying to take the game by the scruff of the neck. I feel this season that has often been the likes of mojo, bailey, richards..really doesn't feel like it should be 19-21 yr olds driving us over the line and setting the standards but fair play to them



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:24:07:34:29 by charlieboa.

Quote:

hasta
One more point though, I hate, hate, hate the double jeopardy that led to a yellow card for Coetzee. Absolute nonsense.

That is a ridiculous rule, similar to sending off a player after 5 mins which they are fortunately proposing to change. However, if Coetzee committed a deliberate infringement he was stupid to do so. If it couldn’t be stopped fairly let them score. He effectively lost us the match by his action.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:24:08:43:10 by Bath Hammer.

If we’d had Hughes playing yesterday I suspect we’d have coasted to victory.

Not sure what’s up with Faletau, but he just wasn’t at the races. Maybe we should play in Welsh colours to help him for the remaining games.

Quote:

makeitagem
Why take off so many players ?, Williams Cips , Spencer, bringing on Richards into the 2nd tow, he's too lightweight , keep the props on for longer,Dan Cole , Joe Marler regularly play the full 80 minutes, Bristol hooker the same on Friday night. Painful to see all go to pieces.

I wonder if it was in response to the fitness criticism and trying to ensure that we saw the game out. Malco is right about the injury break and having already decided to put the subs on we needed to soak up pressure and see the clock out.
As noted by others the change of a chunk of the team seems to coincide with the wholesale collapse of our defence it does seem as though we should keep the team together for as long as possible but I think that might apply to other teams as well at times, England included.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

How many times has Bath lost from winning positions this season? How many times have we deflated from 60 minutes out? When was the last time our bench made a winning contribution to any game?
We don't deflate because we are markedly less fit than other teams, but because we have no one ensuring we keep pumping the air in and patching up any leaks. Our on-field "leadership" and game management is woeful. While every other team can and have come to rely on an inspirational, savvy, solid, respected and follow-through-fire group of senior and charismatic players to see them through, or over or beyond, Bath has none. We drift. Occasionally we'll spark or find each other and create some pretty patterns. But when push literally needs to come to shove, we have no rugby bullls. No on-field leaders.
And on-field is where rugby matches are won, not on whiteboards in the coach's rooms.
Our recruitment focus should be on bringing in the leaders to help Reid, Underhill etc grow their rugby creds and allow the talent of our youth to bloom.
Without real leaders we will continue to drift and puncture.

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

hasta
One more point though, I hate, hate, hate the double jeopardy that led to a yellow card for Coetzee. Absolute nonsense.

That is a ridiculous rule, similar to sending off a player after 5 mins which they are fortunately proposing to change. However, if Coetzee committed a deliberate infringement he was stupid to do so. If it couldn’t be stopped fairly let them score. He effectively lost us the match by his action.

I thought, listening on ref link his was for bringing down the mall that led to the penalty try, what actually happened?

Quote:

Susanne

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

hasta
One more point though, I hate, hate, hate the double jeopardy that led to a yellow card for Coetzee. Absolute nonsense.

That is a ridiculous rule, similar to sending off a player after 5 mins which they are fortunately proposing to change. However, if Coetzee committed a deliberate infringement he was stupid to do so. If it couldn’t be stopped fairly let them score. He effectively lost us the match by his action.

I thought, listening on ref link his was for bringing down the mall that led to the penalty try, what actually happened?

My view was that as the maul was moving forwards he was running in reverse, there is a point at which you can't run backwards any faster so he got run over and the maul collapsed on top.

How deliberate is that? Someone has to be blamed and as a trip hazard it was him. Stupid law.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

With the squeeze of the salary cap and some big earners in the squad the question is who are we getting value for money from and who we are not. Falatau is going and the way he has been playing has already left, Stuart needs to stay but become more of a leader, Underhill is a given and must be kept at all costs, we should choose two from the three wingers, Roko, Coka and Watson with the emergence of Horse, Dunn stays and looked more like himself yesterday, Charlie Ewells IMHO is very lucky to be in the England team and can go because we need to sign at least one more specialist tight head lock as Attwood's playing time will be managed. The money Ewell and one of the wingers frees up will be on could get us probably two locks. A hard nosed established Saffa/Kiwi and a decent prospect from the championship and if he stays then he cannot be captain as we need natural leaders like Sam and Miles. We need a loose head and another tight head as well and Pierre Schoeman of Edinburgh would be a fantastic signing as he gave Stuart a torrid time and was so dynamic in the loose against us last week. He appears to be the fans favourite player which tells you a lot for a loose head but his stock is rising and rising and he would not be cheap.

I’m with the anti double jeopardy group too. Couldn’t comment on the Coetzee infringement as it was at the other end of the pitch from me. But…
It seems to me that if one pack is being over powered by the other either at the scrum or maul then the collapse is almost unavoidable and in no way deliberate. You can’t change your bind in the maul so how can you avoid being overrun? So by all means give a penalty but never a yellow card..
I’ve seen this double jeopardy in a non premiership game it was totally inappropriate there as it is anywhere.
The injury to Bayliss and our lack of a replacement brings another daft rule to the forefront if a player has a head injury whether his own fault or not you can replace. If he is injured as a result of foul play to any other part of his body you can’t without “using a sub” unless he is a front rower so if your 9 has been subbed and his replacement is flattened off the ball you go down to 14 or are forced to play someone out of position. This IMHO unfairly penalises the non offending side.

Lot's to like about how Danny Cipriani played yesteday, I thought. Definitely didn't shirk the physical work, including a couple of important tackles, kicked well from the tee and hand, and I thought organised our attack well.

Quote:

Barnoid
Lot's to like about how Danny Cipriani played yesteday, I thought. Definitely didn't shirk the physical work, including a couple of important tackles, kicked well from the tee and hand, and I thought organised our attack well.

Chron certainly rated his performance

[www.somersetlive.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:24:13:31:36 by charlieboa.

From Saints site:

Bath Imploded. - they have serious mental issues in closing out a game. Can’t believe we won that.
Looked like they’re just not fit.
Gaps everywhere because they could barely breathe let alone line up

Pretty damning..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:24:14:14:48 by Pulteney.

Quote:

Pulteney
From Saints site:
Bath Imploded. - they have serious mental issues in closing out a game. Can’t believe we won that.
Looked like they’re just not fit.
Gaps everywhere because they could barely breathe let alone line up

Pretty damning..

Or alternatively gaps everywhere because we only had 13 players on the pitch at the end.

Totally agree with the mental issue comment, we should have put at least 40pts on them.

Well, we might scrape fourth place and we might not but in a one-off game against the Tiggers, Saints will always have a chance. Leicester have been very effective this campaign as you would expect with Borthwick at the helm but they are rather one dimensional and very reliant on their kicking game. Saints will always score tries but concede far too many for our liking.

Always a pleasure to see The Rec in Spring sunshine - a rare victory for us in Bath.

Thought it was quite telling the difference in approach during the break in play whilst Nansen was injured. Ludlam got everyone round him and looked to read riot act to them whereas a number of Bath players looked to have switched off laughing and joking thinking it was job done
Nice to visit Bath on a sunny Spring day rather than a dank wet Friday night in February

Quote:

OutsideBath
Or alternatively gaps everywhere because we only had 13 players on the pitch at the end..

This! And any time soon there will be some of those over-elaborated coaching analysis videos on Insta/Twitter using one of the Saints tries as a great example of how to pull a defence out of shape - failing to notice that Bath were down to 13.

The moment we changed the players on 60 minutes our pack started going backwards. Instantly every scrum was either rubbish ball or a penalty to Saints. Immediately giving them a 40 yard advantage and a throw in to Saints..................and thereafter more and more pressure on Bath.

If we do not create a squad of players to provide a competitive pack for 80 minutes we will win few games.

Also there is absolutely no point picking Faletau as he is not playing and not committed.

Send him back to Wales now.

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
The moment we changed the players on 60 minutes our pack started going backwards. Instantly every scrum was either rubbish ball or a penalty to Saints. Immediately giving them a 40 yard advantage and a throw in to Saints..................and thereafter more and more pressure on Bath.
If we do not create a squad of players to provide a competitive pack for 80 minutes we will win few games.

We have created a competitive pack, it's just that significant numbers of them have rarely been available to play for the last couple of seasons.

Quote:

Malco

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
The moment we changed the players on 60 minutes our pack started going backwards. Instantly every scrum was either rubbish ball or a penalty to Saints. Immediately giving them a 40 yard advantage and a throw in to Saints..................and thereafter more and more pressure on Bath.
If we do not create a squad of players to provide a competitive pack for 80 minutes we will win few games.

We have created a competitive pack, it's just that significant numbers of them have rarely been available to play for the last couple of seasons.

I think is reasonable to suppose that part of the definition of "competitive" is "available". By that measure, we do not have a competitive pack.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

I acknowledge that Beno Obano has been unlucky........I sincerely hope he has some good luck over the next few years.

This replacements thing is a bit of a mystery, the front row replacements were Arthur Cordwell, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 D'Arcy Rae. These three were first choice and started the game against Quins which we won and were replaced by Tom Doughty, Will Vaughan and Kieran Verden we didn't crumple then.

So why would they be the reason we lost control of the scrum on Saturday?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked
This replacements thing is a bit of a mystery, the front row replacements were Arthur Cordwell, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 D'Arcy Rae. These three were first choice and started the game against Quins which we won and were replaced by Tom Doughty, Will Vaughan and Kieran Verden we didn't crumple then.
So why would they be the reason we lost control of the scrum on Saturday?

For whatever reason the transformation was clearly evident.

Quote:

shipwrecked
This replacements thing is a bit of a mystery, the front row replacements were Arthur Cordwell, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 D'Arcy Rae. These three were first choice and started the game against Quins which we won and were replaced by Tom Doughty, Will Vaughan and Kieran Verden we didn't crumple then.
So why would they be the reason we lost control of the scrum on Saturday?

That day Rae, Cordwell did 80 but had a bulky back 5 including McNally, Williams and Hughes (who was replaced by Will Spencer)

Quote:

Dorsetoldboy

Quote:

shipwrecked
This replacements thing is a bit of a mystery, the front row replacements were Arthur Cordwell, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 D'Arcy Rae. These three were first choice and started the game against Quins which we won and were replaced by Tom Doughty, Will Vaughan and Kieran Verden we didn't crumple then.
So why would they be the reason we lost control of the scrum on Saturday?

That day Rae, Cordwell did 80 but had a bulky back 5 including McNally, Williams and Hughes (who was replaced by Will Spencer)

So would it be true to say that we don't have a front row problem but more of a bulky second row problem that might well be resolved next season with the return of Atwood, McNally, Spencer and mystery lock?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

SW, would that be the mystery lock we’ve been trying to sign since the summer? Don’t hold your breath.

Back to the game, any news on the Saints player carried off?

Quote:

OutsideBath
SW, would that be the mystery lock we’ve been trying to sign since the summer? Don’t hold your breath.
Back to the game, any news on the Saints player carried off?

Even without the mystery lock OB we will be better off with McNally, Williams and Atwood won't we?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

OutsideBath
SW, would that be the mystery lock we’ve been trying to sign since the summer? Don’t hold your breath.
Back to the game, any news on the Saints player carried off?

Even without the mystery lock OB we will be better off with McNally, Williams and Atwood won't we?

The injury record for Atwood and McNally would suggest not.

Quote:

OutsideBath
SW, would that be the mystery lock we’ve been trying to sign since the summer? Don’t hold your breath.
Back to the game, any news on the Saints player carried off?

Saints tweeted that he was in the changing room with the team after the game and travelled home with everyone else.

I was at the game with my brother in law and family who are over for the first time in 3 years from New Plymouth, Taranaki.

First and foremost what a great day and as usual our supporters were magnificent, as my brother in law said the Rec is one of his most favourite grounds in the world.

On the match well enough has been said so I will say what my brother in law said and he knows a bit about rugby having been involved heavily in Taranaki for many years overseeing players such as the Barrett brothers and being great friends with Kevin the boys dad.

He said he thought we had plenty of attacking options - his most telling comment to be honest was "Bath only know how to lose" - he went on to explain because of this season the players are expecting to lose no matter what position they get into and in his opinion that rubs off on not just the opposition but the officials stating he felt Luke Pearce's attitude appeared to change once Saints started their comeback.

He also said our fitness did not appear great but pointed out that it can appear like that if your battling the expectation of defeat.

On a positive note and one I took on from him he felt we were definitely "fixable" - he stated he liked the look of our backs signalling Spencer and Clarke out for praise and also Morosov it is something about a big LHP breaking down field as he said - shame 2 out of the 3 are going.

He reckons JVG and his coaching team will be reasonably happy with the squad based on what he saw on Saturday maybe with a few more additions - attitude is key and needs to be addressed and fitness needs to be better but like he said these are fixable and reasonably quickly - he said he would be more worried if he were a Saints boss - he thought they looked lightweight and apart from Mitchell at 9 looked "Ordinary" - definitely as he pointed out Bath lost it rather than Saints won it.

He is confident with the fan base we have that the club can turn it round - which from someone like him is a huge boost for me.

Good news Ali.

PG

Good points Ali, thanks an outside view is always useful. I'm beginning to see that Mitchell is fast becoming a real prospect for England 9, (recognising he is Opti's fav 9 already).


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

shipwrecked
This replacements thing is a bit of a mystery, the front row replacements were Arthur Cordwell, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 D'Arcy Rae. These three were first choice and started the game against Quins which we won and were replaced by Tom Doughty, Will Vaughan and Kieran Verden we didn't crumple then.
So why would they be the reason we lost control of the scrum on Saturday?

For whatever reason the transformation was clearly evident.

More heft in the second row would have helped, but IMHO the key reason was attitude. See Stevie Myler's right boot's comment above. bath did not use the pause wisely. Saints were ready & fired up for the scrum, Bath were not- that was the turning point.

PG

Very glad on the news on the Saints number 5.

Looked for a bit of news but nothing out there so glad to read this.


I am with your brother in law Ali. It looks to me like the team/squad are almost treading water waiting for the new team to come in...........

There needs to be, and indeed there is going to be a change.

Whilst the Saints lad was being treated on the ground I noticed that Bayliss was clearly shaken up. He was stood apart from the rest of the Bath players staring at the injured player, doctor and medics.
It was some time before he joined the rest of the team.
Some sort of encouragement was needed, perhaps an arm round his shoulder from the captain or another senior player.
He got injured himself soon after and I wonder if his mind wasn’t in the right place.

All something that I hope would change as part of the new focus. Bit strange that Bayliss was allowed to stress like that. If you have to tell leaders how to respond to trauma and keep your players focussed I would say you need a different leader!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Finding the right leader, & there should be only one, will be a challenge for JvG. The Saints captain was really pestering the referee, maybe too much but he probably gained the advantage in the end. I think it just has to be the right character whatever their age, someone like Miles Reid maybe, but how often will he play? The senior players should step up but do they do so enough? I see very little from the renowned internationals we have in our ranks.I

Just about calmed down from Saturday. Firstly, I'd like to ask if anyone knows the status of the Saints' player who was stretchered off? Looked a bad one.

Won't repeat what's been said above but wanted to flag the one moment that stuck out in my mind from Saturday: my Dad asked me who would be captain next year - reckon it'll still be Ewels? I was stumped. From my layman's view, I just don't get him - as a player or captain. I don't doubt his commitment, but I don't see anything there but a nice, honest player and bloke. Hard-working and gives his best - but that only gets you so far, especially in role as captain. Basically, Hooper MKII.

When was the last time we had an out and out leader? Someone who likely got the hairs on the back of the neck standing up during a rallying call? I'm harking back to days of Steve Borthwick unless anyone has anything different? Wonder what he's up to now.

Would someone like McInally - with an RAF background - be a little more inspiring as opposed to insipid? Perhaps Big Dave comes straight back in to head up a rejigged leadership group? Maybe one of the youngsters like Reid are now ready to step into the role permanently? I just don't see anything that says anything other than team of individuals and there doesn't seem to be anyone there to pull us together. When chips are down etc etc, we just fall apart. I get that not all leaders are shouters, but I don't see any of those so we must have a softly, softly leader, which isn't working.

I think/hope JvG and his team will turn up into a fitter team that's harder to beat. I'm relatively confident on that. I just don't see who heads that team up and leads/steers/drives us on the pitch.

Quote:

Barfboy
Just about calmed down from Saturday. Firstly, I'd like to ask if anyone knows the status of the Saints' player who was stretchered off? Looked a bad one.

See posts above, he travelled home with the rest of the Saints squad.

Quote:

shendy

Quote:

OutsideBath
SW, would that be the mystery lock we’ve been trying to sign since the summer? Don’t hold your breath.
Back to the game, any news on the Saints player carried off?

Saints tweeted that he was in the changing room with the team after the game and travelled home with everyone else.

That’s good news

That's a really good and encouraging post Ali

Thank you and big thank you to your BiL

If we were back in the amateur days I could understand a lot of the comments about poor leadership, losing focus during the injury, unnecessarily subbing some of our best players and finding so many ways to turn an easy victory against an average opponent into abject defeat, but this is supposed to be a professional club, just look at the cost of the tickets! We seem to do this week after week without ever learning the lessons. What a shame there is no relegation, it is the only thing to really concentrate the minds of those running the club.

Some good individual performances, mostly from those prematurely subbed, but the last 10 minutes must have been the most discouraging I have seen in many years and the silence at the end was deafening.

It does seem to be the case that either by poor management or bad luck the structure of the team re leaders/characters is all wrong. I dont know, but Ive always got the impression that Hooper likes yes men (in the words of an old American boss I had ) 'Rah rah salute the flagpole' types.

Quote:

woodpecker
It does seem to be the case that either by poor management or bad luck the structure of the team re leaders/characters is all wrong. I dont know, but Ive always got the impression that Hooper likes yes men (in the words of an old American boss I had ) 'Rah rah salute the flagpole' types.

Agree, and his boss TM ? , probably does as well !

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

[Cipriani seemed to be doing most of the talking to the team….
Ewels mentioned after a loss a couple of weeks ago that the team switch off and aren’t consistent for 80 minutes but unfortunately he doesn’t seem able to prevent it. I too thought that the Bath players were just ambling about during the injury break.
I don’t like to single people out but as Captain he should have been firing them up.
I dont readily see a standout captain waiting in the wings?
Once Saint got the momentum the writing was on the wall.

Great news about the injured Saints player.

Another positive I really enjoyed the game. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have accepted this defeat had there been relegation.
I actually thought Saints look a very powerful team.


quote Barfboy]Just about calmed down from Saturday. Firstly, I'd like to ask if anyone knows the status of the Saints' players who was stretchered off? Looked a bad one.

Won't repeat what's been said above but wanted to flag the one moment that stuck out in my mind from Saturday: my Dad asked me who would be captain next year - reckon it'll still be Ewels? I was stumped. From my layman's view, I just don't get him - as a player or captain. I don't doubt his commitment, but I don't see anything there but a nice, honest player and bloke. Hard-working and gives his best - but that only gets you so far, especially in role as captain. Basically, Hooper MKII.

When was the last time we had an out and out leader? Someone who likely got the hairs on the back of the neck standing up during a rallying call? I'm harking back to days of Steve Borthwick unless anyone has anything different? Wonder what he's up to now.

Would someone like McInally - with an RAF background - be a little more inspiring as opposed to insipid? Perhaps Big Dave comes straight back in to head up a rejigged leadership group? Maybe one of the youngsters like Reid are now ready to step into the role permanently? I just don't see anything that says anything other than team of individuals and there doesn't seem to be anyone there to pull us together. When chips are down etc etc, we just fall apart. I get that not all leaders are shouters, but I don't see any of those so we must have a softly, softly leader, which isn't working.

I think/hope JvG and his team will turn up into a fitter team that's harder to beat. I'm relatively confident on that. I just don't see who heads that team up and leads/steers/drives us on the pitch.[/quote]

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Old Bath Tub

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woodpecker
It does seem to be the case that either by poor management or bad luck the structure of the team re leaders/characters is all wrong. I dont know, but Ive always got the impression that Hooper likes yes men (in the words of an old American boss I had ) 'Rah rah salute the flagpole' types.

Agree, and his boss TM ? , probably does as well !

Well I certainly hope JvG isn't a yes man and shakes up this complacent coaching setup. If he is another yes man that allows Bath to continue down this path then we will be relegated.

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OutsideBath

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Old Bath Tub

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woodpecker
It does seem to be the case that either by poor management or bad luck the structure of the team re leaders/characters is all wrong. I dont know, but Ive always got the impression that Hooper likes yes men (in the words of an old American boss I had ) 'Rah rah salute the flagpole' types.

Agree, and his boss TM ? , probably does as well !

Well I certainly hope JvG isn't a yes man and shakes up this complacent coaching setup. If he is another yes man that allows Bath to continue down this path then we will be relegated.

I don’t think Ed G will be wanting yes men OB

It's possible, but there is literally no evidence that Hooper (or TM for that matter) wants a Yes Man.

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Pop stand fan
The long injury break killed us. Going forward with momentum when the game was stopped. Conceded a penalty at the restart scrum from which Saints went on to score. All downhill from there.

The actions of the two captains during the injury break were interesting. Saints were gathered into a huddle and I guess were being exhorted to give it everything whereas Bath seemed to mill around the pitch with little group interaction.....did they think that they had the game won? Lack of leadership & energy.

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hasta
It's possible, but there is literally no evidence that Hooper (or TM for that matter) wants a Yes Man.

I think there are indicators that the characters/leaders/square pegs, havent stayed under Hooper. Also I recognise the type in the stuff (guff) he comes out with.

Which leaders? Which square pegs?

I don't particularly like the way that Hooper communicates to the media. But that doesn't mean anything.

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woodpecker

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hasta
It's possible, but there is literally no evidence that Hooper (or TM for that matter) wants a Yes Man.

I think there are indicators that the characters/leaders/square pegs, havent stayed under Hooper. Also I recognise the type in the stuff (guff) he comes out with.

Stooke , Zac Mercer, Freddy Burns ?
(Characters) Stooke & Mercer also leaders IMHO although all were pretty much sidelined under Hooper. Mercer later showed his worth
IMHO

As long as Ed Griffiths isn't the type of bloke who wants everyone to touch their forelockand agree with him, should be ok. Not implying that either. Hooper and Tarquin are a mutual admiration society and have been for quite a few years now.

Eh? Mercer left for waaaay more money - he played pretty much every game. Burns was flakey as anything. He could have been given more of a chance but he was playing worse than Priestland.

Stooke I'd rather have kept. But he certainly wasn't a leader. Not compared to the likes of McNally.

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hasta
Eh? Mercer left for waaaay more money - he played pretty much every game. Burns was flakey as anything. He could have been given more of a chance but he was playing worse than Priestland.
Stooke I'd rather have kept. But he certainly wasn't a leader. Not compared to the likes of McNally.

Hasta - I do feel this subject has been battered to death and we need to draw a line beneath it and look forward, however Mercer certainly did have a huge falling out with Hooper - there was a period at the end of his penultimate season with the club where he was dropped from the squad - not injured, just dropped at a time when we had huge injury issues in the back row with a lot of discussion around a huge falling out with Hooper - Burns came out as is Freddie's way and told it how he saw it listing Hoopers behaviour akin to being sent to "Coventry" refusing to speak with Freddie and excluding him from everything. Stooke has stated about his desire to leave but has not named any specific person but again rumours surround his relationship with Hooper.

As they say "No smoke without fire". The big fact is that the 2 people who many including me on this forum have issues with have been given new roles away from the 1st Team squad playing matters - read into that what you wish.

As I say it is time to draw a line under this dark & sad time for Bath FC and look forward to happier times.

The trouble is that you only see one side of these issues Ali & are not aware of the full story. It is dangerous to make continued assumptions on that basis, particularly when you are of the view that SH & TM can do nothing right. It’s surprising that we can retain any top players if that is the situation!

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woodpecker

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hasta
It's possible, but there is literally no evidence that Hooper (or TM for that matter) wants a Yes Man.

I think there are indicators that the characters/leaders/square pegs, havent stayed under Hooper. Also I recognise the type in the stuff (guff) he comes out with.

Stooke , Zac Mercer, Freddy Burns ?
(Characters) Stooke & Mercer also leaders IMHO although all were pretty much sidelined under Hooper. Mercer later showed his worth
IMHO

Likely great motivators for those surrounding them but not necessarily ideal captains to liaise with the ref, make on field decisions to adapt the game style to suit the game, decide on whether to kick the 3 or go for a lineout catch and drive, etc.

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Bath Hammer
The trouble is that you only see one side of these issues Ali & are not aware of the full story. It is dangerous to make continued assumptions on that basis, particularly when you are of the view that SH & TM can do nothing right. It’s surprising that we can retain any top players if that is the situation!

Bath are currently the worst team in the premiership (that's a fact not an opinion) it's reasonable on a message board to hypothesise what might be the cause of that.

One hypothesis is that Hooper doesn't like those edgier types with stronger personalities who challenge and may be seen as disruptive. Its also a hypothesis (which I subscribe to ) that a successful team/organisation needs some of those characters.

The reason this came up again was (for me) the Mercer interview listen from 50.20 . These may not be all down to Hooper, but interesting.

[www.youtube.com]

Whatever, things are changing so its history to a large extent.

I think there's are significant differences between 'characters with personality', 'characters who are disruptive', 'characters who are different' and 'yes men'.

Have we lost characters? Yes. It's a hypothesis as you say that that's down to Hooper (although, you know, who brought Nathan Hughes in?) My point is that there is no evidence (and there's none in that interview with Zach) that says that Hooper wants 'Yes Men'.

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hasta
I think there's are significant differences between 'characters with personality', 'characters who are disruptive', 'characters who are different' and 'yes men'.
Have we lost characters? Yes. It's a hypothesis as you say that that's down to Hooper (although, you know, who brought Nathan Hughes in?) My point is that there is no evidence (and there's none in that interview with Zach) that says that Hooper wants 'Yes Men'.

Its my hypothesis that Hooper wants 'Yes Men' based on my experience dealing with bosses who want 'Yes Men'. The movements within the team which I observe with my eyes, the performance of the said team (both objectively (eyes) and subjectively (results) and the comments which I hear from current and ex players with my ears tend to support for me in my own head, the hypothesis.

I concede however that the evidence is sparse and circumstantial and as such I'm not prepared to argue this in a court of law.

Having actually been in meetings with Hoops and his team one would very quickly gauge whether he wanted yes men or woman for that matter in his team. You soon get vibes in a meeting culture whether there is a yes man culture and I certainly did not perceive that in my experience.

Hughes was brought in under the Ed G and Neal Hatley regime - post changes.

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Ali1969
[ there was a period at the end of his penultimate season with the club where he was dropped from the squad - not injured, just dropped at a time when we had huge injury issues in the back row with a lot of discussion around a huge falling out with Hooper - .

Ali, I have checked the match reports and in the last half of that season the back row match selection was 4 from: Faletau, Underhill, Reid, Ellis, Bayliss, Mercer, Williams, Louw. So there were always 4 backrowers available.

Bath won the majority of those 12 matches, having lost the majority of their first half fixtures - in which Mercer started in 6 of 11. I would have preferred to play him, but maybe the coaches felt he was not playing to the right standard in the second half of that season? His mysterious disappearance from the squad was in the middle part of the season - rounds 5-9.

From the match selections I have seen I do not think the "injury issues" can have been that "huge" and I don't think they support a claim of Mercer being sidelined for his character.

In the following season -20/21 he started 10 of the 11 opening fixtures (round 4 was a Covid cancellation). Of the second half fixtures (after his intended departure had been announced) he started 7 and was a replacement for 1 (again there was a missed match due to Covid cancellation).

Who knows exactly what the relationship between DOR and player was like? 18 selections out of a possible 20 (all but 1 as a starter) suggest it did not prejudice his chances of playing.

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:28:09:29:42 by P G Tips.