FLASHES OF COLOUR? BATH v HARLEQUINS

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:06:08:49:02 by P G Tips.

Some injury updates

[www.bathrugby.com]

Alfie Barbeary
Alfie had hamstring surgery at the end of September. As he has only just arrived at the club, we are working with him to establish where he is in his recovery. He will return this season.

Lewis Boyce
Lewis picked up a knee injury against London Irish in October. He is now back in full training.

Chris Cloete
Chris is back running following his broken foot sustained against Wasps in September. He is on course for a return at the end of December.

Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Gabriel injured his ankle against Newcastle Falcons at the start of November. His aim for return is the end of January.

Ruaridh McConnochie
Ruaridh injured his hamstring against Newcastle Falcons at the start of November. It is a similar injury to what Tom de Glanville experienced this season. His aim for return is mid-December.

Quinn Roux
Quinn suffered a knee injury against the Barbarians. He requires surgery and will return at the end of February.

Will Stuart
Will returned from his knee injury for England against New Zealand. A week later against South Africa, he suffered a dislocated elbow which does not require surgery. He will not return for at least eight weeks.

Sam Underhill
Following his shoulder surgery, Sam has been integrated back into full training. He is set to return in mid-December.

Mike Williams
Mike has experienced a new knee injury. He is on course for an end-of-January return.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

According to his Instagram, Marcus Smith is going to be spending a bit of time in an oxygen tent, so don't think he'll be available for Quins.

A shame for him, a bonus for us – but offset by the loss of Stuart and Roux, somewhat.

Quote:

dr.bath1865
According to his Instagram, Marcus Smith is going to be spending a bit of time in an oxygen tent, so don't think he'll be available for Quins.

It kind of depends which kind. Hyperbaric would be for injury but hypobaric would be to boost red blood cell counts. An even-more-energised Marcus Smith is a scary thought.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Good to have 4 excellent players back available by end of the month, in addition to getting w spencer, attwood, francis and tdg back on the park in the last few weeks

Have lost track , is redpath available as far as we know?

Yes, charlie, think he is.

Hope we’ll see;
Spencer Bailey Gallagher Redpath Lawrence JCok TdG.

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Yes, charlie, think he is.
Hope we’ll see;
Spencer Bailey Gallagher Redpath Lawrence JCok TdG.

Same

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Bath Rugby: 15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Cameron Redpath, 11 Will Butt, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Valeriy Morozov, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 D’Arcy Rae, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Fergus Lee-Warner, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Miles Reid, 8 Josh Bayliss

Impact players: 16 Niall Annett, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 Johannes Jonker, 19 Will Spencer, 20 Tom Ellis, 21 Max Green, 22 Piers Francis, 23 Richard de Carpentier

Harlequins Starting XV

1. Joe Marler
2. Jack Walker
3. Wilco Louw
4. Dino Lamb
5. Irne Herbst
6. Jack Kenningham
7. Will Evans
8. Alex Dombrandt – Captain

9. Danny Care
10. Tommy Allan
11. Josh Bassett
12. Andre Esterhuizen
13. Oscar Beard
14. Cadan Murley
15. Nick David

Impact Players
16. George Head
17. Fin Baxter
18. Simon Kerrod
19. George Hammond
20. Archie White
21. Lewis Gjaltema
22. Will Edwards
23. Lennox Anyanwu

[www.oddschecker.com] Quins odds on at the moment...

It looks to be 2 pretty well matched teams on paper. Smith not playing is a massive advantage to us. Even without him and Green though it is still an exciting backline

I am not overly familiar with a lot of the Quins bench, I am not sure if that is because I haven't seen much of Quins this year or if they are quite inexperienced.

Harlequins the stronger on paper (but not by a lot), with Smith, Northmore, Green & Lynagh missing.

Bath's selection about as strong as can be with current injuries. Home advantage could just sway it if the home crowd really get behind the team.

PG

Thank goodness the International farce is over. Two cracking pretty much full strength sides. Let the best team not called Quins win
Whisper it quietly ilovebathtime but missing Smith might not be such a huge loss to Quins. Not because he isn't class but because Allan is very good and controls the game/territory much better than Smith does. That said he lacks Smith best form in attack so pros and cons.
I was incredibly impressed by him in the Quins game against us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:01:16:34:18 by OldMarovian.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Thank goodness the International farce is over. Two cracking pretty much full strength sides.

You're not serious?

Missing for Bath:

1. Obano, Boyce, Schoeman
3. Stuart
4. Ewels
5. McNally, Roux
6. Williams
7. Underhill, Cloete
8. Coetzee, Van Velze, Barbeary
9. Schreuder
10. Searle
11. Muir, Hamer-Webb
14. McConnochie
15. De Glanville

Quote:

Malco

Quote:

OldMarovian
Thank goodness the International farce is over. Two cracking pretty much full strength sides.

You're not serious?

Missing for Bath:

1. Obano, Boyce, Schoeman
3. Stuart
4. Ewels
5. McNally, Roux
6. Williams
7. Underhill, Cloete
8. Coetzee, Van Velze, Barbeary
9. Schreuder
10. Searle
11. Muir, Hamer-Webb
14. McConnochie
15. De Glanville

I was thinking that many of those wouldn't be in the 23 but on reflection I'd say atleast 7 or 8 would be: Obano, Boyce, Stuart, Ewels/Roux, Underhill, Barbeary, Schreuder, Muir - RMC/TDG most likely take the 23 spot over a 6:2 split if either was fit.

Lol - Bath are missing Alfie Barbeary for this match.

Quote:

by

Quote:

Malco

Quote:

OldMarovian
Thank goodness the International farce is over. Two cracking pretty much full strength sides.

You're not serious?

Missing for Bath:

1. Obano, Boyce, Schoeman
3. Stuart
4. Ewels
5. McNally, Roux
6. Williams
7. Underhill, Cloete
8. Coetzee, Van Velze, Barbeary
9. Schreuder
10. Searle
11. Muir, Hamer-Webb
14. McConnochie
15. De Glanville

I was thinking that many of those wouldn't be in the 23 but on reflection I'd say atleast 7 or 8 would be: Obano, Boyce, Stuart, Ewels/Roux, Underhill, Barbeary, Schreuder, Muir - RMC/TDG most likely take the 23 spot over a 6:2 split if either was fit.

Agree, think we are missing about a third of a 'cup final' 23.

Their front row is a worry eso at scrum.

Also some big breakdown threat in Evans and kenningham.

Tbf bayliss, reid and redpath are good jackalers for us

Quote:

Malco

Quote:

OldMarovian
Thank goodness the International farce is over. Two cracking pretty much full strength sides.

You're not serious?

Absolutely, from the players available. What you have listed are injuries which all teams have and play through. That is different from losing players to the International circus. I thought the context of the sentence might have made that clear. My apologies if it didn't.
Would you accept "two cracking pretty strong sides"?

It’s difficult to get rid of that deeply entrenched feeling that we will be blown away by such opponents but we now have no reason to think that way. We should be on a fairly even playing field with most teams as long as we keep up the fighting spirit for 80 minutes. Tomorrow is no exception but we do need to start well, not give ourselves a massive handicap to overcome.

Offie saying 4 changes from the side that beat tigers but I make it 5? Happy with the team and looking forward to it.
Just hope the ref doesnt let Joe Marler ref the game.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:02:05:44:06 by copester.

Quote:

Bath Hammer
It’s difficult to get rid of that deeply entrenched feeling that we will be blown away by such opponents but we now have no reason to think that way. We should be on a fairly even playing field with most teams as long as we keep up the fighting spirit for 80 minutes. Tomorrow is no exception but we do need to start well, not give ourselves a massive handicap to overcome.

Agree, think those teams are fairly well matched and hoping home advantage may see us sneak it.

Do feel that if we could get these 5 or so players due back over the next month without suffering many new injuries then the 23 will look v strong. Live in hope!

With all our recent acquisitions I think our "cup final" XXIII is something like:

Obano
Dunn
Stuart
Ewels
Attwood
Hill
Underhill
Barbeary
Spencer
Bailey
Muir
Redpath
Lawrence
Cokanasiga
De Glanville

Boyce
Annett
Rae
Roux
Coetzee
Schreuder
Francis
McConnochie

We are a long, long way from this 12 of these players are missing today so that's more than half the team.

Quote:

by

Quote:

Malco

Quote:

OldMarovian
Thank goodness the International farce is over. Two cracking pretty much full strength sides.

You're not serious?

Missing for Bath:

1. Obano, Boyce, Schoeman
3. Stuart
4. Ewels
5. McNally, Roux
6. Williams
7. Underhill, Cloete
8. Coetzee, Van Velze, Barbeary
9. Schreuder
10. Searle
11. Muir, Hamer-Webb
14. McConnochie
15. De Glanville

I was thinking that many of those wouldn't be in the 23 but on reflection I'd say atleast 7 or 8 would be: Obano, Boyce, Stuart, Ewels/Roux, Underhill, Barbeary, Schreuder, Muir - RMC/TDG most likely take the 23 spot over a 6:2 split if either was fit.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:02:09:54:45 by Malco.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Thank goodness the International farce is over. Two cracking pretty much full strength sides. Let the best team not called Quins win Whisper it quietly ilovebathtime but missing Smith might not be such a huge loss to Quins. Not because he isn't class but because Allan is very good and controls the game/territory much better than Smith does. That said he lacks Smith best form in attack so pros and cons.
I was incredibly impressed by him in the Quins game against us.

FH is one position where there is a massive gulf between the two teams. We started the season with one promising FH, Quins have two very good FH’s.

Quote:

OutsideBath
FH is one position where there is a massive gulf between the two teams. We started the season with one promising FH, Quins have two very good FH’s.

I think prop is more significant. Our 4th choice loosehead and 2nd choice tight head against seasoned internationals.

Is TdG unequivocally ahead of Gallagher right now?

Quote:

Optimist
Is TdG unequivocally ahead of Gallagher right now?

Absolutely Opti, Gallagher would be in my first 15 let alone my first 23.

As for Alfie Barbeary, I agree that counting him as a Bath injury loss it a bit of a stretch. Mind you the same could be said of Searle, did he leave with Shilcock or is he off when Francis returns (i.e. now).

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

With OB kicking so poorly, wonder if it would be prudent to hand the kicking duties to Spencer.

Our 2nd choice front row is up against their 1st choice chaps tonight, a big ask for them. Spencer needs to move the ball away quickly from the breakdown too. COYB!!

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Getting hammered in the scrum.
Reffed out the game at lineout.
Reffed out the game at the scrum.
Winning the turnover battle.

Need some ball this half if we are to turn it around.

Try Bath!!

Good first 5 to 10mins of the second half and back to being second best & giving away penalties.

Arrgh. Let that one go - held up twice over the line, first unlucky not to be given, second correct. Thought Quins brought down one of them.

So, so frustrating.

Aaaaargh. That is all.

Deserved to win in the end.

We were always going to struggle in the scrums and that was what made the difference ultimately.

Ah well. Definite change in tack in gameplan and not sure it necessarily worked to our advantage.

Spencer really could do with releasing the ball quicker sometimes.

I don't know what it is with Irish refs but they never seem to allow a spectacle. It's not that he was necessarily wrong (although he was, on both sides) it's just that the game can never develop.

Quote:

Malco
Deserved to win in the end.
We were always going to struggle in the scrums and that was what made the difference ultimately.

Yup.
Feelings on the match are that Bath were 2nd best throughout, and it felt quite lucky to be within 6 points by the time the cards came out.

But

We left 6 points out there on Landi's boot, and 10-14 points out there on a couple of upper arms.

It feels really weird to think that we were 2nd best, but really should have won that one.

As you say, that was a victory based on the tight 5, and their were simply better than ours today (helped by being first choice in the FR)

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD

Hugely frustrating but boy oh boy we are so much better than last season. Bit more composure in a few mauls and we might’ve sneaked it versus one of the league’s top teams.

JCok was absolutely superb. Redpath class. Reid brilliant. Just a shame we couldn’t get Lawrence into the game more and the scrum didn’t hold up better.

Last season we’d have been thumped by that skilful Quins team. This season, being this annoyed we didn’t win, feels strangely ok.

I thought most of the scrum pens in the 1st half were quin's going round not forward and we were better for most of the 2nd half when the ref could be heard telling them to stay straight.

The scrum pens combined with our errors stopped us getting in the game. Thought we were the better side in the 2nd half. Slightly better execution and we get 3 maul tries.

Did we blow it or blown out of the game by Brace’s whistle ?

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Watching on TV was difficult to disagree with many of Brace's decisions.

[quote Murty7]I thought most of the scrum pens in the 1st half were quin's going round not forward and we were better for most of the 2nd half when the ref could be heard telling them to stay straight.(quote]

On the ref link Tom Dunn said to Brace exactly that Murty. Ref replied he wasn’t seeing that but would watch for it

Widcombe Garçon

[quote Widcombe Boy][quote Murty7]I thought most of the scrum pens in the 1st half were quin's going round not forward and we were better for most of the 2nd half when the ref could be heard telling them to stay straight.(quote]

On the ref link Tom Dunn said to Brace exactly that Murty. Ref replied he wasn’t seeing that but would watch for it[/quote]

Increasingly convinced that most Scrum refereeing is just vibes.

"First-choice props with Joe Marler against 2nd/3rd choice - of course they're going to win the scrum".

I actually think there was a number of poor decisions (knock-on in the tackle, no time to even place the ball before he called a maul a scrum, jackals where the player doesn't get ball first etc.) - even Nick Evans(?) mentioned some luck with decisions - but I don't think it cost Bath. It just made for a stilted game.

The luck Evans referred to was the pens called against Bath at their own lineout for being offside engaging into the maul. I don't think that was luck I think it was deliberate tactics by Quins and worked.

Jamie Roberts made the point at half time that last season we're probably 25-30 points down by then. The Bailey misses were costly (although not really two pens, if he'd kicked one we wouldn't have got the second).

But! We're way harder to beat than we were. Our fitness is so much improved. And we were so, so close on those mauls. I'm gutted, but definitely positive.

From the stand we thought the ref bottled it at the end by not awarding a penalty try with the second yellow card. We would certainly have scored if they hadn’t infringed.

We were 7m out from the line, that was never gonna be a PT.

Frustration definitely the overriding feeling walking home from The Rec. The W was there for the taking and Quins would have had no complaints had we managed to get the ball down at the end. Our defence is so, so much better than last year and the team spirit too.

Marler deserved his MOTM. That we got that close with countless scrum penalties against us was an achievement in itself.

Just watched the game. We should have won that and that is a pleasure to be able to type that sincerely because its been a while. A little more accuracy and discipline is all we needed and that will come. Mullered in the scrum , which is a concern, but most phases were competitive against a very good Quins side and the rolling maul was excellent. Just a pity we couldn't have given the ref (who I thought was balanced and consistent throughout) a clearer view of the groundings. Special mentions for Cam Redpath, Ted Hill and Josh Bayliss but...

My MotM - JC4. A player absolutely transformed. Competitive in all phases and running very nice lines again. Maddog is clearly a good teacher.

A word for Ugo Monye. A more disgracefully biased, one-eyed "commentary" it has rarely been my displeasure to witness. If he's going to be a shill for Quins at least put a disclaimer at the beginning of proceedings. More proof, if proof were needed (I'm looking at you Lol), that ex-players should not commentate on their old teams.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:03:07:18:47 by joethefanatic.

Quote:

hasta
Jamie Roberts made the point at half time that last season we're probably 25-30 points down by then. The Bailey misses were costly (although not really two pens, if he'd kicked one we wouldn't have got the second).
But! We're way harder to beat than we were. Our fitness is so much improved. And we were so, so close on those mauls. I'm gutted, but definitely positive.

Completely agree with this. We are getting closer to being a very good side. I think it will be next season before it translates to a top 4 finish, but playing so badly in the first half and still being in the game at half time was an incredible defensive effort.

Have not yet watched the match back again, will do so later. However, my overriding comment is the "star" of the game was the ref. Did he whistle us out of the game, as OBT asked I don't know, but if the sport wants to attract more fans to the game to grow revenue etc as the big wigs say they do something needs/must be done about the stop/start nature of the sport. The match kicked off at 07.45 pm and finished at 09.45 pm. So if you exclude half time the 80 min match lasted 110 minutes.
Many near us had to leave 10 mins early to get trains etc. The stop start nature of the match last night will have done nothing to excite a neutral watcher and I put that fully on the Brice's shoulders, he was dreadful and the game did not flow at all.

Quote:

nick holder
Have not yet watched the match back again, will do so later. However, my overriding comment is the "star" of the game was the ref. Did he whistle us out of the game, as OBT asked I don't know, but if the sport wants to attract more fans to the game to grow revenue etc as the big wigs say they do something needs/must be done about the stop/start nature of the sport. The match kicked off at 07.45 pm and finished at 09.45 pm. So if you exclude half time the 80 min match lasted 110 minutes.
Many near us had to leave 10 mins early to get trains etc. The stop start nature of the match last night will have done nothing to excite a neutral watcher and I put that fully on the Brice's shoulders, he was dreadful and the game did not flow at all.

What's the solution? Allow more cheating or ignore knock-ons and forward passes?

I always find to claim that it's the ref's fault that players insist on cheating all the time, or their skills aren't up to catching a ball.

From where I was sat (at home) the ref made fewer errors then the vast majority of the players.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:03:08:08:32 by Which Tyler.

What an odd game.

Thought we were fairly awful for whole match apart from a couple of 10 min periods but should have won it.

Incredibly frustrating to not get across the line at the end but we are clearly moving in the right direction if we can make loads of errors, miss some easy kicks , get outscrummaged yet still have 3 guilt edged changes to win the game at the end.

Thought flw got through truckloads of work as always.

Reid and bayliss were great again in the backrow.

Lovely to see coko fired up and confident in attack and defence.

Signs are encouraging but unforgiveable to butcher those chances at the end. Kenningham got it right at the end- desperately cynical , just far enough out for ref to not give a pen try and the fact we had just failed to score despite being over the line didn't help!

Quote:

Which Tyler

Quote:

nick holder
Have not yet watched the match back again, will do so later. However, my overriding comment is the "star" of the game was the ref. Did he whistle us out of the game, as OBT asked I don't know, but if the sport wants to attract more fans to the game to grow revenue etc as the big wigs say they do something needs/must be done about the stop/start nature of the sport. The match kicked off at 07.45 pm and finished at 09.45 pm. So if you exclude half time the 80 min match lasted 110 minutes.
Many near us had to leave 10 mins early to get trains etc. The stop start nature of the match last night will have done nothing to excite a neutral watcher and I put that fully on the Brice's shoulders, he was dreadful and the game did not flow at all.

What's the solution? Allow more cheating or ignore knock-ons and forward passes?

I always find to claim that it's the ref's fault that players insist on cheating all the time, or their skills aren't up to catching a ball.

From where I was sat (at home) the ref made fewer errors then the vast majority of the players.

A top ref shouldn’t be making the mistakes he made though, starting with a knock on against Bath in the first half that the big screen showed wasn’t a knock on. He also was way out of position for the second disallowed try meaning he was in no position to see what happened.

That said we largely lost the game because we had no scrum and butchered too many chances.

As said before, last season we would have conceded 40+ points in the first half so credit to the coaching team for the improvements.

As an aside the Friday evening games are becoming more of a problem with drunken “fans”. There was a significant number of drunk chavs last night and one in particular with a drum who would have had it removed if he’d been nearer us.

Quote:

hasta
We were 7m out from the line, that was never gonna be a PT.

And ref was very clear on ref link that he wasn't giving one. He was also very clear about the 2 No Tries, in both he had a clear on field decision of no try, he saw a hand under both, and was looking for confirmation from the TMO.

He was also clear he knew what was going on with the scrum penalties, our 3 driving across or front row standing up under pressure. Bath didn't agree and I think it might have been the wiliness of Mr Mahler that one out there

Quote:

charlieboa
Lovely to see coko fired up and confident in attack and defence.

Quite agree - that beautiful arcing run in the first half from the halfway line to just outside the Quins 5m space was scintillating. In previous years I'd wager that he'd have just attempted to truck the ball up, taking on the defender in front of him and hoping to smash through him, a la Nadolo. However, he backed himself which shows how much confidence he is now playing with. Possibly a combo of injury-free run and a better side around him, but also a new coach in Maddog

Quote:

hasta
The Bailey misses were costly (although not really two pens, if he'd kicked one we wouldn't have got the second).
.

Really! I ‘d have expected Priestland & Ford to have nailed both of those 9 times out of 10. It seems that OB’s goal kicking has gone backwards under the tutelage of Jon Callard. He doesn’t seem to give himself enough time like most top kickers. We could really do with Finn Russell. As for the referee, what annoyed me was his unwillingness to play advantage which was to the detriment of both sides & interrupted the game too much. I’m surprised he is an international referee.

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

Which Tyler

Quote:

nick holder
Have not yet watched the match back again, will do so later. However, my overriding comment is the "star" of the game was the ref. Did he whistle us out of the game, as OBT asked I don't know, but if the sport wants to attract more fans to the game to grow revenue etc as the big wigs say they do something needs/must be done about the stop/start nature of the sport. The match kicked off at 07.45 pm and finished at 09.45 pm. So if you exclude half time the 80 min match lasted 110 minutes.
Many near us had to leave 10 mins early to get trains etc. The stop start nature of the match last night will have done nothing to excite a neutral watcher and I put that fully on the Brice's shoulders, he was dreadful and the game did not flow at all.

What's the solution? Allow more cheating or ignore knock-ons and forward passes?

I always find to claim that it's the ref's fault that players insist on cheating all the time, or their skills aren't up to catching a ball.

From where I was sat (at home) the ref made fewer errors then the vast majority of the players.

A top ref shouldn’t be making the mistakes he made though, starting with a knock on against Bath in the first half that the big screen showed wasn’t a knock on. He also was way out of position for the second disallowed try meaning he was in no position to see what happened.

That said we largely lost the game because we had no scrum and butchered too many chances.

As said before, last season we would have conceded 40+ points in the first half so credit to the coaching team for the improvements.

As an aside the Friday evening games are becoming more of a problem with drunken “fans”. There was a significant number of drunk chavs last night and one in particular with a drum who would have had it removed if he’d been nearer us.

So if a side is "cheating" it can easily be stopped by carding a player as Team sanction, a strong ref would be in charge of the game not allow the cheats to dictate the tempo etc. Two examples from last night when the game could have been speeded up. Did the game need to be stopped for Marler to change his shorts, no he could have seen asked to leave the pitch and do it on the sidelines, there is 3 mins back. When Bailey had his head injury, it was obvious he was going to need to have an HIA, so why bandage his head on the pitch and then take him off. There is five minutes back. Both delays would also not have been extended by the water carriers coming on.

Quote:

OutsideBath
A top ref shouldn’t be making the mistakes he made though, starting with a knock on against Bath in the first half that the big screen showed wasn’t a knock on. He also was way out of position for the second disallowed try meaning he was in no position to see what happened.

I don't recall a knock on - but you'll need to find way more than that for criticism of a ref to be fair.
The second one isn't true though - he was in a pretty good position, did see what happened, and did make a decision - that was almost certainly correct.

Quote:

nick holder
So if a side is "cheating" it can easily be stopped by carding a player as Team sanction, a strong ref would be in charge of the game not allow the cheats to dictate the tempo etc. Two examples from last night when the game could have been speeded up. Did the game need to be stopped for Marler to change his shorts, no he could have seen asked to leave the pitch and do it on the sidelines, there is 3 mins back. When Bailey had his head injury, it was obvious he was going to need to have an HIA, so why bandage his head on the pitch and then take him off. There is five minutes back. Both delays would also not have been extended by the water carriers coming on.

Is that really the best you've got?
Come on now - that's way more grinding a personal axe than actual criticism of a ref.
So your solution to a game that is being whistled too much is... to whistle more.
When's the last time a player had to change shorts or top and the game didn't stop? 1980 something?
When's the last time a ref overuled the medical staff on an HIA? has it ever happened?

And 5 minutes? yeah, no hyperbole there at all.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD

Quote:

Which Tyler

Quote:

OutsideBath
A top ref shouldn’t be making the mistakes he made though, starting with a knock on against Bath in the first half that the big screen showed wasn’t a knock on. He also was way out of position for the second disallowed try meaning he was in no position to see what happened.

I don't recall a knock on - but you'll need to find way more than that for criticism of a ref to be fair.
The second one isn't true though - he was in a pretty good position, did see what happened, and did make a decision - that was almost certainly correct.

Quote:

nick holder
So if a side is "cheating" it can easily be stopped by carding a player as Team sanction, a strong ref would be in charge of the game not allow the cheats to dictate the tempo etc. Two examples from last night when the game could have been speeded up. Did the game need to be stopped for Marler to change his shorts, no he could have seen asked to leave the pitch and do it on the sidelines, there is 3 mins back. When Bailey had his head injury, it was obvious he was going to need to have an HIA, so why bandage his head on the pitch and then take him off. There is five minutes back. Both delays would also not have been extended by the water carriers coming on.

Is that really the best you've got?
Come on now - that's way more grinding a personal axe than actual criticism of a ref.
So your solution to a game that is being whistled too much is... to whistle more.
When's the last time a player had to change shorts or top and the game didn't stop? 1980 something?
When's the last time a ref overuled the medical staff on an HIA? has it ever happened?

And 5 minutes? yeah, no hyperbole there at all.

So what is your solution then or are you happy watching an 80 min game last 110 mins, is that such a fantastic spectacle which is going to attract a new and wider audience to the game which as whole is in a financial crisis?

Bath so much better that they were this time last season. Their defence, confidence, energy and physical muscle all improved beyond sight and they are looking like a rugby team again. Fulsome praise would be flowing from this fan if they could cut out, or at least greatly reduce, the number of unforced errors they make when in sight of the try line - it is getting silly. Now if they could gain the confidence and spirit to overcome this problem the Rec will rock again. It was great to see Roko and Redpath and Reid back to form last night and the way the Wuss boys have added to our game. But I have doubts that Spencer is quite the player we hoped he might be - some of his passing last night was woeful and too often stymied attacking opportunity, and similar reservations about Bailey, who is not a good enough kicker and play maker to carry us forward.
But forward we are going and let's be thankful for that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:03:09:52:34 by Deckchair.

Thought the ref was fine. Could see why he made the decisions on the disallowed tries, and it was the players more so than Brace that made it a disjointed game. Was it greasy? Handling seemed tricky.

One Brace missed was the knock in the tackle by Esterhuizen when we were in their 22. Big swing, that, and Brace spotted Redpath doing similar in the first half but missed the Quins one. Ah well.

Ref didn’t lose it for us. We did. But as said above, fact we’ve got only ourselves to blame for a loss v excellent Quins (loved their try from the 5m scrum) is hugely heartening, as this time last year we’d have been 35-3 down at half time, rallied a touch in the second half, England-style, and lost 52-15. The frustrating loss aside, this season is way more fun, and the fact we’ve got a clear strategy, a hard defence, fit, passionate and committed players, is just brilliant.

JCok’s run in front of the West Stand… man alive, he looked fast!

There is no pleasing some people! Echo the words from post from DR above.


I watched from armchair.

Greatly encouraged by BB&W PERFORMANCEs compared to the last more than several dire seasons when I have switched off after 15 mins max in despair and despondency. Come on folks, just get a grip and stop the endless criticisms. We very nearly won against a very good side. I have had comments from other objective club supporters that it was a 'good game'. Its amazing progress.

[quote Widcombe Boy][quote Murty7]I thought most of the scrum pens in the 1st half were quin's going round not forward and we were better for most of the 2nd half when the ref could be heard telling them to stay straight.(quote]

On the ref link Tom Dunn said to Brace exactly that Murty. Ref replied he wasn’t seeing that but would watch for it[/quote]

I personally thought the referee was poor but we blow a great chance of winning with 2nd half performance. Due to feeling under the weather i had to watch on BT and agree with Widcombe Boy and Murty7. If you an absolute bull of a Saffer TH and a British Lion you are always going to get the decisions. Missed the atmosphere but watching gives you a really close up view and i agree that Quins got away with murder in the first half at scrum time as it was obvious that Bath were driving square and straight in line with the law and Quins were stepping across. What has the kicking coach done to OBs kicking as last season he was putting them over from all over the park. He missed two absolute sitters.

Back row were very good with Ted Hills aggressive carrying and Bayliss and Reid were everywhere stealing ball and to think we still have Cloete and Sam in the stands watching. We rode our luck in the first half and Quins rode theirs in the 2nd half but the referee ruined the game as a spectacle and penalising our line out set up seemed extremely pedantic and left a few Bath players shaking their heads as it is probably what they do week in and week out. His positioning for the Bath mauls over the line was poor as well and I thought the benefit of the doubt went to the attacking team. Both times he said no try on field decision that basically meant they were never going to be awarded.

Nick in fairness to the Ref he apologised to the Bath players as he initially thought Marler was injured (on the ref link)

(quote nick holder][quote OutsideBath][quote Which Tyler][quote nick holder]Have not yet watched the match back again, will do so later. However, my overriding comment is the "star" of the game was the ref. Did he whistle us out of the game, as OBT asked I don't know, but if the sport wants to attract more fans to the game to grow revenue etc as the big wigs say they do something needs/must be done about the stop/start nature of the sport. The match kicked off at 07.45 pm and finished at 09.45 pm. So if you exclude half time the 80 min match lasted 110 minutes.
Many near us had to leave 10 mins early to get trains etc. The stop start nature of the match last night will have done nothing to excite a neutral watcher and I put that fully on the Brice's shoulders, he was dreadful and the game did not flow at all.[/quote]
What's the solution? Allow more cheating or ignore knock-ons and forward passes?

I always find to claim that it's the ref's fault that players insist on cheating all the time, or their skills aren't up to catching a ball.

From where I was sat (at home) the ref made fewer errors then the vast majority of the players.[/quote]

A top ref shouldn’t be making the mistakes he made though, starting with a knock on against Bath in the first half that the big screen showed wasn’t a knock on. He also was way out of position for the second disallowed try meaning he was in no position to see what happened.

That said we largely lost the game because we had no scrum and butchered too many chances.

As said before, last season we would have conceded 40+ points in the first half so credit to the coaching team for the improvements.

As an aside the Friday evening games are becoming more of a problem with drunken “fans”. There was a significant number of drunk chavs last night and one in particular with a drum who would have had it removed if he’d been nearer us.[/quote]

So if a side is "cheating" it can easily be stopped by carding a player as Team sanction, a strong ref would be in charge of the game not allow the cheats to dictate the tempo etc. Two examples from last night when the game could have been speeded up. Did the game need to be stopped for Marler to change his shorts, no he could have seen asked to leave the pitch and do it on the sidelines, there is 3 mins back. When Bailey had his head injury, it was obvious he was going to need to have an HIA, so why bandage his head on the pitch and then take him off. There is five minutes back. Both delays would also not have been extended by the water carriers coming on.[/quote]

Quote:

nick holder
So what is your solution then or are you happy watching an 80 min game last 110 mins, is that such a fantastic spectacle which is going to attract a new and wider audience to the game which as whole is in a financial crisis?

A] I don't have a problem with games taking that long.
B] Games have been taking that long for close to 2 decades now
C] If that's what you want to criticise, criticise World Rugby, not the individual ref.

This ref knocking is getting OTT - largely led by a certain South African head coach. The ref didn't knock the ball on, and is being criticised for getting decisions right.
Without a ref there is no game. Inventing things to criticise the ref for is simply not on.

Last night, the ref was one of the best performers on the pitch.

Quote:

BiggusDickus
A] the referee ruined the game as a spectacle and penalising our line out set up seemed extremely pedantic and left a few Bath players shaking their heads as it is probably what they do week in and week out.
B] His positioning for the Bath mauls over the line was poor as well and I thought the benefit of the doubt went to the attacking team.

C] Both times he said no try on field decision that basically meant they were never going to be awarded.

A] You mean the Bath were upset that the ref noticed their cheating? That's on the players, and if anything, the ref is to be applauded for it.
B] His positioning was fine, but you thought wrong.
C] Again, complaining that the ref gets a decision correct is... well, it's something I guess.


If you guys are so unhappy at the standard of reffing - I challenge you to put your time where your mouth is: [www.englandrugby.com]

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:03:11:53:15 by Which Tyler.

Quote:

annie blackthorn
There is no pleasing some people! Echo the words from post from DR above.

I watched from armchair.

Greatly encouraged by BB&W PERFORMANCEs compared to the last more than several dire seasons when I have switched off after 15 mins max in despair and despondency. Come on folks, just get a grip and stop the endless criticisms. We very nearly won against a very good side. I have had comments from other objective club
supporters that it was a 'good game'. Its amazing progress.

What do you mean. Absolutely everyone agrees. However appreciative you are it doesn’t mean there is not room for improvement. What is the point of this forum if you can’t make such points without being accused of winging!

The lineout penalty is a decision that doesn't get made every other week of the season, but having seen that is something that is going to get penalised, to do it a second time is unforgivable.

I think the decision at the end to call the breakaway a maul was wrong but then if it wasn't it was holding on and a pen to quin's anyway.

With quin's down to 13 at that point I would have taken a scrum as either quin's have to put 8 in the scrum or leave gaps out wide. There always feels like too many things that can go wrong with a lineout and a maul as proved 3 times last night

Most teams would have scored against us in that situation & have done in the past. We still make rather heavy weather iof converting such opportunities (if I am allowed to voice an opinion!)

The ref was fussy but the only officiating error I saw made was failing to pick up the arguably deliberate knock on in the tackle by Esterhuisen. That really should have been picked up by the touch judge.

We only have ourselves to blame. Poor finishing not to get the ball down over the line twice and poor goal kicking to miss two straightforward penalties from pretty much right in front of the posts.

From wher I sat it seemed clear we could nit ground the ball twice and were stopped short by Quins dropping the maul- yellow card but no PT correct.

However, Chron states that the final surge was stopped illegally by Quins hooker and ref decided the ball was unplayable. If both those things are true then surely he should have awarded a penalty and allowed play to continue?

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:03:14:52:16 by P G Tips.

We can debate how good the ref was all week and not come to agreement. Personally I feel he was substandard, but wasn’t the reason we lost.

We simply didn’t have an effective scrum which gave Quins multiple free plays, a number of attacking lineouts were butchered and we were not clinical enough in their 22.

Had we scored a try on the last play I’d have been concerned about OB’s ability to make the conversion. His kicking is really poor at present.

All in all though the coaches seem to have us going in the right direction as I suspect last season the game would have been lost by half time.

All true OB & agreed.
We lost to a stronger, better organised pack.

The debates about the TMO reviews reveal to me an interesting problem that the game needs to get a grip on. The TV experience is better than the live one.

I believe that TMO decisions should be displayed visually for reproduction on live screen at the ground- e.g. “Held up. No try.” The crowd might not like it, but would at least be better informed.

PG

Frustrating! Should have won that but accuracy and foolishness (the two line out infringements) cost us dearly at critical moments. Ben’s a great asset to the club but I do wish he would use our exciting backs more than box kick so much.

Quote:

P G Tips
All true OB & agreed.
We lost to a stronger, better organised pack.

The debates about the TMO reviews reveal to me an interesting problem that the game needs to get a grip on. The TV experience is better than the live one.

I believe that TMO decisions should be displayed visually for reproduction on live screen at the ground- e.g. “Held up. No try.” The crowd might not like it, but would at least be better informed.

PG

They should play the interaction between the ref and TMO over the tannoy system then we would all know what's going on.

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

P G Tips
All true OB & agreed.
We lost to a stronger, better organised pack.

The debates about the TMO reviews reveal to me an interesting problem that the game needs to get a grip on. The TV experience is better than the live one.

I believe that TMO decisions should be displayed visually for reproduction on live screen at the ground- e.g. “Held up. No try.” The crowd might not like it, but would at least be better informed.

PG

They should play the interaction between the ref and TMO over the tannoy system then we would all know what's going on.

OB - Orlando wasn't on at the end to take the place kick.
And IRB have proposed this week to give more information about TMO interaction to those in the ground.

WRT Brice, he was pedantic on the two lineout penalties but they do get given from time to time.
Very few referees have a clue about what happens in a scrum and most scrum penalties are a lottery. I also fail to understand why a scrum going backwards is automatically penalised.
Brice gave a knock on against Morozov (IIRC) which patently wasn't as Morozov had to turn to face our line and the ball went back from there.
As others have said, the Esterhuizen knock on was missed by all 4 officals, a really poor decision that cost us 70 m, a penalty and a probable yellow card.
He was really poorly positioned for both non-awarded tries, and far too slow to get into a position to see whether there was grounding. Potentially cost us 7 points.
I thought at least one of those mauls was being taken down by Quins just before the line. Another day, another ref and it may have been at least on PT and card.

However, we should have executed those mauls 2% better and would then have scored.
The last play we should have taken the scrum.

Ultimately our own mistakes cost us the game, even though Brice was decidedly average.

My thoughts regarding the ref. It’s a tough job and we’ve had loads worse.
If I were advising him on how to improve…. He needed to let the game flow more he was too quick on his whistle on several occasions declaring the ball unplayable or penalising a slight obstruction and stoppping play when the non offending team were in possession.
He made a decision on the penalty try and collapse ( correct )but didn’t allow the ball to be played when it was clearly available a double whammy for Bath as we had tied in all their forwards and had a man advantage.

Quote:

Dorset Boy

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

P G Tips
All true OB & agreed.
We lost to a stronger, better organised pack.

The debates about the TMO reviews reveal to me an interesting problem that the game needs to get a grip on. The TV experience is better than the live one.

I believe that TMO decisions should be displayed visually for reproduction on live screen at the ground- e.g. “Held up. No try.” The crowd might not like it, but would at least be better informed.

PG

They should play the interaction between the ref and TMO over the tannoy system then we would all know what's going on.

OB - Orlando wasn't on at the end to take the place kick.
And IRB have proposed this week to give more information about TMO interaction to those in the ground.

Good point I forgot he went off towards the end.

While we're criticizing the ref, can we remove the mote in our own collective eye and get his name right? He's Andrew Brace not Brice.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Sigh.

which tyler never assume as it makes an ass out of you as I was a qualified referee. I made mistakes in probably every game but we did not have all the technology these refs have but I personally think it too easy for a ref not to make a call.

In my day Bath would have been awarded both driving mauls and his positioning was poor. He reffed the scrums incorrectly as well in the first half as the Bath front row were still bound as a unit and driving straight whereas Quins were running round and they were becoming detached and the penalties should have been awarded to Bath.

Just one point that i would like to suggest with the European games and the swapping of refs prior to these games. We all know that each countries referee differently and its all about interpretation and as many have said we need the games to be entertaining to draw new fans, sponsors etc.

I think all referees have integrity so why not let the french refs referee the games in France, the English refs in England and so on. Home advantage means that you can play your normal style and it is the visiting team that needs to adapt instead of some games both teams having to adapt leading to penalty fests and watching rugby that is like watching paint dry.

Quote:

annie blackthorn
Sigh.

Agreed but it did make me laught!

I feared Joe Marler would ref the set piece and that's exactly what happened. He was in Mr Braces ear all night. Credit to Rae for stepping in at one point.

adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.

The minute Eddie Jones goes, Ollie Lawrence will be an England player. We didn’t really have enough decent possession to get him properly into the game, but he just went looking for work in defence. Not altogether his night, but was still such an asset. And Joe C taking the outside line - beautiful.

Unforgivable not to be scoring against 13 though. Just tap and go on the penalty and play phases till they run out of numbers. How is that not obvious?

Sometimes you learn a heck of lot more in defeat than you do in winning and this season, the first for JvG and his team is all about learning, developing and improving

I was immensely disappointed not to have snatched the win, but last year's team would have been 35 points + down at half time given the possession and territory that Quins had

Quote:

Optimist

Unforgivable not to be scoring against 13 though. Just tap and go on the penalty and play phases till they run out of numbers. How is that not obvious?

Having watched this again, I do wonder who was captain at the "death". Ben and Tom had gone off and it was not clear to me who was making the calls. Totally agree with the comment from Opti, and even Ben Kay called in the commentary, we should have gone for the Scrum as we had 8 v 6 in the pack so they would either have boosted the numbers and gone to 7 leaving space out wide, or left it as it was and I would have hoped we could have pushed them over. Maybe a lesson learned for next time.

Quote:

nick holder

Quote:

Optimist

Unforgivable not to be scoring against 13 though. Just tap and go on the penalty and play phases till they run out of numbers. How is that not obvious?

Having watched this again, I do wonder who was captain at the "death". Ben and Tom had gone off and it was not clear to me who was making the calls. Totally agree with the comment from Opti, and even Ben Kay called in the commentary, we should have gone for the Scrum as we had 8 v 6 in the pack so they would either have boosted the numbers and gone to 7 leaving space out wide, or left it as it was and I would have hoped we could have pushed them over. Maybe a lesson learned for next time.

Tbf we needed a converted try to win and our kicking had been poor. Scoring closer in was a better bet. It would, if course, have helped greatly if we'd actually scored.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

'A lesson learned for next time' methinks we've been here before !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
'A lesson learned for next time' methinks we've been here before !

We certainly have but this time around I think many on ere have the confidence that we have the coaching team and quality of players across the squad to at last put the learning into practice and quickly