FOR THE CRAIC? LONDON IRISH V BATH. PRC

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:10:10:55:39 by P G Tips.

Would like to see Venter start inside Joseph.but understand the reasoning of Francis at 12.

Agree with the summary PGT, just rest the first 23 and play anyone who wants a shot of 1st team rugby or a new (or senior) contract. Personally I woudn't play anyone who isn't here next year as this is one of the last chances for the wannabe's to play against top level oppo. Score for this one is entirely irrelevant to me.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53
Score for this one is entirely irrelevant to me.

Not sure I agree Matt, I'd like to see a core of players showing they can win and see out games and that same group show that the club's defence is improving.

I don't think JvG wants to experiment far from his senior players and for me it's the performance that is irrelevant and the winning habit something to nurture.

I also think Gallagher is key to JvG's game plan. Last time Worboys played he was incorrectly in my view, credited with a solid kicking performance when it was Gallagher who kicked the penalties into the corner. For me he is one of the first names on the sheet behind FLW and Lawrence. I might be wrong of course.

Love the idea of experiment with "wannabes" but is it the time?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

I think that 23 pgt has named will be pretty close to what we see.

Hopefully coetzee is fit- good game to ease him back.

Not sure anyone else is ready from the injury list?

Interesting to see if they gowith cloete again or give him some rest after his first hit out in a while.

Quote:

shipwrecked
Love the idea of experiment with "wannabes" but is it the time?

Given that we are about to be out of all competitions bar the Prem I can't see a better (or alternative) time. I'm not saying chuck in the 18 year olds but the likes of Cordwell (23), Verden (24?), Doughty (26?), Etete, JJ Tonks should be able to hold their own now - or never will IMO.

Agree that a couple like Ellis and TDG need game time.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

I agree chuck in the youngster and see what they are like.

Team Up.Mix of youth and experience. De Carpentier Captain.

15 Sam Harris, 14 Tom de Glanville, 13 Jordan Venter, 12 Max Wright, 11 Will Butt, 10 George Worboys, 9 Tom Carr-Smith; 1 Juan Schoeman, 2 Tom Doughty, 3 Archie Griffin, 4 Michael Etete, 5 JJ Tonks, 6 Tom Ellis, 7 Wesley White, 8 Richard de Carpentier

Impact players

16 Jasper Spandler, 17 Archie Stanley, 18 Elliot Millar-Mills, 19 Ethan Staddon, 20 Frankie Read, 21 Louie Hennessey, 22 Gabe Goss, 23 Nahum Merigan

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Like that squad. Should be up to the task as not that green, nice blend.

Imagine some are playing for a contract (and some are already on the way out).

Good to see schoeman back.

Hope tcs doesn't get injured- assume green and lock available!?

Assume verden injured and hence the need for injury cover maybe.

What does Darren Atkins have to do to get a game? Or is he out on loan?

Interesting that Will Butt is clearly seen purely as a wing. Is his distribution just not up to it at 12?

Is that a 6/2 split with no specialist 9 cover?

Nice mixture of youth and experience and interesting selection of de Glanville on the wing

Go get them lads, absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

Optimist
What does Darren Atkins have to do to get a game? Or is he out on loan?

He is (or certainly was) on loan at Richmond.

[twitter.com]

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Looks like London Irish are playing an inexperienced side as well

Quote:

Optimist
What does Darren Atkins have to do to get a game? Or is he out on loan?
Interesting that Will Butt is clearly seen purely as a wing. Is his distribution just not up to it at 12?

Is that a 6/2 split with no specialist 9 cover?

Would imagine Worboys to 9, Harris to 10, TdG to 15 and Goss to 14 maybe? Lot of shuffling there!

Ellis in 2nd row imply he;s off and giving Tonks game time at 6 to prove himself? Or reading too much into it?

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

Optimist
What does Darren Atkins have to do to get a game? Or is he out on loan?

He is (or certainly was) on loan at Richmond.

[twitter.com]

Cheers - nice to see him getting game-time there and looking like he's enjoying himself ... goal-kicking too.

I think you have inverted them Mr Otter- Ellis at 6, Tonks at 5.

PG

I'm a bit confused at the decision to put Tonks in the second row, hes definitely a backrow player. Was playing really well for Saints last season but has hardly got a look in for Bath.

Quote:

by
I'm a bit confused at the decision to put Tonks in the second row, hes definitely a backrow player. Was playing really well for Saints last season but has hardly got a look in for Bath.

According to the offy he plays both?

JJ Tonks joined Bath Rugby ahead of the 2022/23 season. Formerly of Gloucester Academy, he is a physical back row who also plays second row. He captained Hartpury College to a prestigious AASE League title in 2017, the same year he received international recognition.

I assume that its just a case of getting him some game time against good oppo.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:04:10:41:43 by BathMatt53.

Also is there any other available locks?

Flw/spencer/attwood involved at weekend.

Richards/ewels/roux/mcnally/Williams injured...

hope Hennesey gets on as he has a big reputation from wales

Does anyone know if this game is being shown on any channel ?

SR, can’t find it on any telly, but BBC Bristol have radio commentary [www.bbc.co.uk]

...and [www.bathrugby.com] - Offy Match Centre doing online ball by ball (ish).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:04:19:10:52 by Mike the Taxi.

Thanks guys

Radio Brizz tech problems so the Offy Match Centre is best bet currently.

BBC having technical issues and have had to resort to using Zoom to get commentary on the radio, but at least they are covering it now unlike BT Sport or PRTV.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:04:19:56:34 by dcsh.

Feels like in these kind of fixtures no matter what team we name, what team the opposition name, what schedule pf fixrures rhe 2 teams are in..... we always lose and sound clueless.

Only listened to a bit so maybe being unfair but we had 6 or 7 relatively experienced prem players and had only heard of a couple of the Irish players. V probably just my lack of knowledge but felt a v winnable game.

Hopefully I have gone too early with this moaning and we make a miracle comeback.

Quote:

Charlieboa
Hopefully I have gone too early with this moaning and we make a miracle comeback.

'Fraid not.

It would be interesting (in a ghoulish sense) to have the stats for fouled up lineouts on the opponent's 5 metre line. Feels like we do it with frightening consistency.

No I agree Charlie, I'd say we put out a stronger side than both Irish and Exeter, and still lost. A lot of these fringe players should be pushing for gametime in the premiership, only 4 in the starting 15 we fielded tonight have not played in the first team this season. Are they going into these games with a different mindset..

So it was 26 - 0 until a late converted try for Bath.

That strikes me as pretty pathetic.........

It seems that the defensive improvement achieved by the first team, in most matches, has not been absorbed by all our players & formations. This wasn’t a particularly weak team. If so I don’t have much hope when these players represent the first team. We should not just brush aside such a dreadful display. Questions need to be asked & I hope they will. I take it that a few of these players will be released as we can’t afford to carry passengers who don’t give 100%.

Quote:

by
No I agree Charlie, I'd say we put out a stronger side than both Irish and Exeter, and still lost. A lot of these fringe players should be pushing for gametime in the premiership, only 4 in the starting 15 we fielded tonight have not played in the first team this season. Are they going into these games with a different mindset..

I know we're out and it's a somewhat meaningless tournament but it's not great.

The basics that JvG is trying to install were barely present let alone anything more advanced. One of Bath's recurring has been the ability to maintain performances while having to use lower parts of the depth chart and that looks like it's going to persist.

Quote:

The Bear
The basics that JvG is trying to install were barely present let alone anything more advanced. One of Bath's recurring has been the ability to maintain performances while having to use lower parts of the depth chart and that looks like it's going to persist.

+1

Bath will remain a basement team until the reserves are improved. Our 1st team is capable of top 6, but until the replacements improve we will not achieve anything.

Quote:

Bath Hammer
It seems that the defensive improvement achieved by the first team, in most matches, has not been absorbed by all our players & formations. This wasn’t a particularly weak team. If so I don’t have much hope when these players represent the first team. We should not just brush aside such a dreadful display. Questions need to be asked & I hope they will. I take it that a few of these players will be released as we can’t afford to carry passengers who don’t give 100%.

Frankly my comments above about selection were based on an error as I thought this fixture was a Premiership one on Saturday having misread the fixtures. However, in retrospect it still applies in my view.

This young team team has effectively been asked to learn the lessons our "1st" team have learnt from scratch.

Defence is based on team work and leadership and I think you needed a core of senior players to show the way. I'm all for trying youngsters and developers but that was a bit of a waste of time as there was such rotation that I'm not sure much was learnt.
Worboys has a fair bit to learn and seems to struggle under pressure. Hennessy is a first choice university pick but needs to start and Venter and Wright needed decent ball to shine. Testing so many means I'm not sure much was discovered about those out there.
The good thing is the real developing team was insulated from any moral loss. In the scheme of things I don't think much damage was done though despite it being a disappointment.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

It would be interesting to compare the ages & level of experience across the two teams yesterday.

For me, looking at the team sheets for both i was under the impression , wrongly , that this game was winnable probably by 3/5 points. We clearly have a long way to go !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Good point SW and agree the defeat shouldn’t affect the fragile confidence of the 1st team.

The frustrating thing for me is the drop off in performance and cohesion when replacements are brought in. If you watch Saracens for example it doesn’t matter who they bring in they know how the team plays and often deliver.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Good point SW and agree the defeat shouldn’t affect the fragile confidence of the 1st team.
The frustrating thing for me is the drop off in performance and cohesion when replacements are brought in. If you watch Saracens for example it doesn’t matter who they bring in they know how the team plays and often deliver.

Agree , they can make 10 changes and still look like they know what they are doing.

I think we are a bit quick to make excuses. Glasgow threw together a totally random team and totally outplayed our settled first team.

Should it be beyond the wit of third/fourth string guys to have a functioning lineout, a functioning line out drive, a competitive scrum?

From what I can see this was an Irish third string/academy side like ours so why are they able to perform and we can't. All the excuses charteris said equally apply to Irish fron what I can see.

As people have said it doesn't matter hugely in terms of an individual result or an individual prem Cup campaign but I personally think its a red flag in terms of coaching, gameplan and depth.

I think the best example we can give, Bath related, that you need a strong 2nd XV to back up the 1st XV is 2014-5 season, when we made it to the final. I doesn't take much genius to link that with the fact in the 2013-4 season Bath United won the A league/Premiership shield thing...

Therefore I agree with those saying we need a proper 2nd string side to compete properly, and people regularly call on Sarries as a side that can seemingly drop anyone into the 1st XV and the quality and intensity never drops off. I think JvG knows this as well, and that is also what he is hinting at when he says it'll take time to develop. The best 1st XV players are there because they can learn and adapt to game plans at the drop of a hat, parachuting into International sides and everyone looking in place (with some exceptions!) and the 2nd XV players struggle to pick up the game plans.

And again, echoing previous comments from others, until we have a meaningful 2nd XV competition then we'll struggle to get up to speed properly in my view, and be reliant on Championship loans to get people up to speed.

Many many analytical words written post this last fiasco.

I do of course mind that Bath lost but to lose to that extent indicates a woeful performance by the team. Men against boys level.

What happened to defence? Beyond cross again.

Highlights available:

[video.premiershiprugby.com]

If those were the 'high' lights, i'm glad I didn't have to endure the entire game!

Did anyone actually watch the game?
From the Somerset live report it seems the scrum & Discipline we’re the main problems and we were in or 22 for the whole of the first half. The pressure presumably brought about our discipline issues.
Defence was actually praised by the reporter

Widcombe Garçon

I personally think that prem rugby missed a massive trick by scrapping the A Leage and keeping the cup. Players need to be playing as a group regularly to improve and be up to speed if the first team come calling. 4 games a year clearly is not enough. I will argue that farming young lads out to championship teams isnt always beneficial to development as club cliques and varying club cultures can be difficult to settle in. Now I am pretty old school and I do understand Team Bath do play some of the acadamy lads but surely playing against pro squad players on a weekly basis would improve the standard all round?

adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.

If last night gave the management further information about who to keep on and who to let go at the end of the season then its job done as far as I'm concerned.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53
If last night gave the management further information about who to keep on and who to let go at the end of the season then its job done as far as I'm concerned.

Thing is though most of those needing to impress only spent half a game on the pitch whilst the forwards were practising running backwards. Was much learnt from those glimpses?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

BathMatt53
If last night gave the management further information about who to keep on and who to let go at the end of the season then its job done as far as I'm concerned.

Thing is though most of those needing to impress only spent half a game on the pitch whilst the forwards were practising running backwards. Was much learnt from those glimpses?

Did any of us think that they would be running backwards - they really shouldn't have been against a LI side that was just as inexperienced. Maybe that's something learned in itself i.e. some of that set of forwards aren't competitive even against weakened opposition. The very youngest get a pass but there were some pretty experienced heads in there who apparently didn't cover themselves in glory.

I can hear the p45s being printed up as we speak - JVG doesn't strike me as particularly forgiving when it comes to the performance of his players, and neither (of course) should he be.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

I don't know if this is applicable to Bath as it is to Sarries but we didn't do well in the PRC this season and a comment that was made suggested that because of injuries and absentees in the "main" team those junior players not on loan were being used in opposed training drills much more than normal where usually they would be integrated on a more even basis so two teams with varying experience could play/train against each other.

Its not hard to see how the later helps integrate the young players much better whilst there's a pretty defined limit to how much they can get out of the first XV running thoroughly drilled set piece moves on them.

The performance of our "shadow" side is the main reason I am so pessimistic about "great" strides being made in the second half of the season by our first team. If the guys who played last night are the ones our 1st team squad are practising against on a regular basis, no wonder the coaches think we have trained well each week! Our second string are awful and I have seen them three times this season, no grunt, no strength no attitude no passion. Too many loving the life of a pro rugby player and not getting stuck in.
Shambles

Quote:

BathMatt53
I can hear the p45s being printed up as we speak - JVG doesn't strike me as particularly forgiving when it comes to the performance of his players, and neither (of course) should he be.

I wonder if a P45 is also being printed for Charteris given the state of our lineout.

Quote:

nick holder
no grunt, no strength, no attitude, no passion. Too many loving the life of a pro rugby player and not getting stuck in.

I think that its harsh to criticise their attitude. Their performance sure, but the rest seems a bit much IMO...I'm sure they tried their best. Now whether their best is good enough, only JVG knows that.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

BathMatt53
I can hear the p45s being printed up as we speak - JVG doesn't strike me as particularly forgiving when it comes to the performance of his players, and neither (of course) should he be.

I wonder if a P45 is also being printed for Charteris given the state of our lineout.

Agree that jvg will be learning about these guys- he has 80+ so many will and should be concerned.

Tough on the guys playing behind a retreating pack as hard to prove your worth. For me if senior /older guys aren't standing out in fixtures like last night they are in big trouble- doesn't bode well for likes of doughty, ellis, white, rdp, tonks, etete. I am being harsh but that's the reality as 15-20 guys are in danger.

Sure there is a massive sense of frustration that I most definitely share- transitioning young promise to reliable prem players is key to our strategy and I don't have total faith. tbf its not easy with the structure in place.

Charteris I feel is most under pressure of our coaches- lineout and lineout drive is the one facet of our game that consistently fails to deliver and its a key part of any gameplan that relies on getting at minimum parity up front. I am actually amazed at how bad it remains.

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

nick holder
no grunt, no strength, no attitude, no passion. Too many loving the life of a pro rugby player and not getting stuck in.

I think that its harsh to criticise their attitude. Their performance sure, but the rest seems a bit much IMO...I'm sure they tried their best. Now whether their best is good enough, only JVG knows that.

+1

Didn’t see the game, but would be extremely surprised if players didn’t have the right attitude and/or passion.