DESPERATION DERBY. BATH v BRISTOL

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:28:11:55:17 by P G Tips.

Update on injuries:

[www.bathrugby.com]

Hill injured leg, out till March.
Barbeary available in March.
Cotezee, de Glanville, Richards, Van Velze available.

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:20:12:05:51 by P G Tips.

I don't agree with the central premise of this article.

I don't believe there is any desperation from Bath. I think they see this as a(nother) transitional season. They aren't bothered about losing. They have given up and accepted finishing bottom and are planning ahead after a major exodus of players in the close season. Bristol will give us the biggest hiding of the season so far.

Interesting view Malco and some body language late in Saturday's game might suggest they had little faith they would snatch back the lead.
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However, if you are correct it is a high risk position. Not all of the players will be let go and those that remain will need a very different attitude next season because there will be relegation.

I fervently hope "They aren't bothered about losing." is your opinion and not influenced by one of your sources. If that really is the case it is a horrendous state of affairs!

PG

Quote:

P G Tips
Interesting view Malco and some body language late in Saturday's game might suggest they had little faith they would snatch back the lead.
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However, if you are correct it is a high risk position. Not all of the players will be let go and those that remain will need a very different attitude next season because there will be relegation.

I fervently hope "They aren't bothered about losing." is your opinion and not influenced by one of your sources. If that really is the case it is a horrendous state of affairs!

PG

It's my opinion based on what I have seen in the last couple of games. We are getting our best players back from injury and the performances are regressing. The momentum we were seeing a few games ago is now no longer apparent. It looks very much to me as if players who know they won't be around next season are not fully committed.And in some sense, who can blame them?

Personally I think that they are fully committed but lacking in on the pitch leadership / sensible thoughts hence doing silly things in the red zone whenever they get close. Effort is about the only thing we can't criticise at the moment, its execution that is killing us.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Not sure about that, Malco. Our last couple of games pre-Irish have been, er, imperfect but valiant.

In the loss to Sale, who are second, we looked like we were very bothered about winning and were making progress. If we didn't care, like you say, we'd have been beaten by 50 points. Turns out, we fought back and should've won the game if we'd managed one scrum in the 78th minute. A 19-19 draw away at Glasgow wasn't exactly short of commitment either.

Those games are nowhere near perfect, our skills and strategy aren't in any way being executed on the field well enough, but I don't question our commitment or want to win.

Quote:

P G Tips
However, if you are correct it is a high risk position. Not all of the players will be let go and those that remain will need a very different attitude next season because there will be relegation.
PG

I believe there is promotion to the Prem in 23/24 but still no relegation.

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

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Quote:

Clarkey3k

Quote:

P G Tips
However, if you are correct it is a high risk position. Not all of the players will be let go and those that remain will need a very different attitude next season because there will be relegation.
PG

I believe there is promotion to the Prem in 23/24 but still no relegation.

In theory there was but as only one team (and not one anywhere near the top of the Champs) is eligible effectively its 'as you were' next season I think.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Unless there is a fundamental change in coaching over the next few days this will be an easy training run TBP win for Bristol.

If the team are not bothered about losing why kick the ball away? Better to use this season to keep possession and bring in the backs even if it means making mistakes.
Sounds as though the team are trying to perfect pragmatic rugby and failing (haven't seen the game yet).

I thought the effort in the second half was below-par - not saying they weren't putting their bodies on the line or the like - but more 'relaxed' getting back into position, for example.

I mean if it was only those going whose performances were poor I might understand it but I would be concerned if we're holding onto players who are willing to accept defeat...

I would have Dunn nowhere near this 23 even when he is released by England and I would drop Spencer to the bench and have Francis out of selection too

Quote:

nick holder
I would have Dunn nowhere near this 23 even when he is released by England and I would drop Spencer to the bench and have Francis out of selection too

Out of interest who would be the 2 x hookers, 2 x 10s and starting 9? Note that Tom Doughty is injured. Spandler is still only 19 and (understandably) very green.

I would agree that Annett deserves to start. OB would probably get my nod but with more than a degree of trepidation on current form. Worboys also very inexperienced for a game like Bris.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

This is the last GP game of the season that we will enter as anything other than rank outsiders. How on earth have we managed to go backwards again?

Quote:

Optimist
How on earth have we managed to go backwards again?

Poor coaching

Is it coaching or is it the players as Malco said?

Quote:

by
Is it coaching or is it the players as Malco said?

Two things can be true at the same time. We have good individual players but a poor team and at least some coaches who are just not up to it.

I'd start with the captaincy. Whoever it has been this season, we have just looked rudderless. Until we sort that out, we will remain a poor team. Personally, I'd choose Ted Hill. And strongly consider renaming ourselves "Bath Warriors".

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

I would also start Annett ahead of Dunn

I would also pick anybody ahead of Spencer..............he needs to go and have a complete rethink on how he plays rugby. The world has moved on so that when he came to join us it was a real coup...........now there must be at least 6 - 8 scrumhalves ahead of him.

JJ is past it and I would play Mojo.

I would play Bailey at flyhalf and say just go for it........give him all the kicks

Trickiest one is Gallagher of TdeG. I would perhaps start with Gallagher and then bring TdeG on and depending how the wingers were going keep him on for one of them.

Line out...............................it has to be better and if its not I would sack Charteris and get Ewels to organise it.

I would play TdG with Gallagher on the wing in place of RMac. JJ to bench for Mojo. FLW and Spencer to start, Attwood on the bench. I'd keep Ben Spencer - he's playing to a plan. Francis will surely be off this week after two HIAs so that's not even a question. Dunn will possibly be with England anyway, so Annett to start.

We don't (and shouldn't) threw the gameplan out. But the effort needs to be there and some variety too.

Quote:

hasta
IWe don't (and shouldn't) threw the gameplan out.

Why not? It’s self-evidently not a very good one.

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Optimist

Quote:

hasta
IWe don't (and shouldn't) threw the gameplan out.

Why not? It’s self-evidently not a very good one.

You mean there is a gameplan?

If there is it seems to be kick to opposition backs in as much space as possible, don’t worry about the chase or tackling the runner. Pass every lineout to the opposition if possible and try not to put too much effort in.

Really feel 50/50 about going on Friday, like the club I’m not sure I can put the effort in. Although at least I wouldn’t have much to shout about so won’t lose my voice.

Has to be a massive reaction this week from both JVG and the players. This is the season with no jeopardy that he has to make changes to remind players no matter how senior that they have to earn the shirt.
Personally I would like to see Green, Richards and TDG involved at some point.

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On the way home from Saturdays match I wasn’t very inclined to go again on Friday night, but my son is up for it so I’ll put on last seasons attitude of hope for the best and try to enjoy whatever happens. Fingers crossed!

Quote:

Malco
I don't agree with the central premise of this article.
I don't believe there is any desperation from Bath. I think they see this as a(nother) transitional season. They aren't bothered about losing. They have given up and accepted finishing bottom and are planning ahead after a major exodus of players in the close season. Bristol will give us the biggest hiding of the season so far.

I don't buy that at all

Go back and look at our recent Prem results. Within one final play of beating Sale away. Beat Falcons quite comfortably at home. LBP at Sandy Park

If we had given up on the season those would have been two hammerings away and one closer defeat at home

Quote:

gaz59

Quote:

Malco
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I don't buy that at all

Go back and look at our recent Prem results. Within one final play of beating Sale away. Beat Falcons quite comfortably at home. LBP at Sandy Park

If we had given up on the season those would have been two hammerings away and one closer defeat at home

You are only as good as your last game.

We should have beaten Sale and Glasgow. We arguably should have won at Sandy Park too. Those games were thrown away.

Have a look at the match reports of those games and compare them to the match report from this Irish match.

Note the personnel changes.

I don't normally like to see players singled out because it is a team game but our second row, centres and halfbacks woefully underperformed in my opinion. Our back three were pretty much redundant. Our back row was outplayed. This was a return to last season. Whatever it is that Van Graan has been trying to get the players to do differently, or whatever work has been done to make them think differently, all went out the window.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the fact that senior players are returning from long term injury and are only now getting to grips with a different approach means that we have regressed in the learning curve. But then perhaps we should have stuck more with the players who have been playing and not rushed Obano, Stuart, McNally Underhill and McConnochie back.

Perhaps the fact the players have all been posting beach pictures on Instagram for the last couple of weeks rather than graft pictures from Farleigh has been a factor.

Either way it was an inexcusable, rudderless performance in which leadership seemed completely absent and basic skills glaringly lacking.

Another thing. It always amazes me to read people talking about a "gameplan" as if we always try to play the same way, regardless of our personnel and the opposition.

You establish a gameplan for each specific game, you don't just set a gameplan for the whole season and then stick rigidly to it regardless of your selection and the strengths and weaknesses of the opposition.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:21:15:04:17 by Malco.

Dunn and Stuart released by England so should be available for Friday. That only leaves 2 hookers and 4 props in the squad, I would have thought international teams would usually take travelling reserves like a Premiership team does.

Quote:

JMills
Dunn and Stuart released by England so should be available for Friday. That only leaves 2 hookers and 4 props in the squad, I would have thought international teams would usually take travelling reserves like a Premiership team does.

Yes, does seem a bit odd.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

The way Dunn played last week, not sure he will strengthen our front row

as I posted earlier Dunn should be dropped to the bench and only keeps his place in the 23 as no other fit hookers at the moment. I would have Stuart to start as he seemed to add something last sat. We got a pen from his first scrum but lost the subsequent line out, one of many, due to Dunn's inept throwing.

Quote:

nick holder
one of many, due to Dunn's inept throwing.

I didn't see it that way aside from the one that wasn't straight. It was a lifter, jumper, thrower timing issue not simply the hookers fault.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Great news all P&Rs to extend times to 10.30 pm on Friday as an experiment in line with Bath Rugby’s plea for night games extension.

[www.bathrugby.com]

Great news indeed!

Any supporters driving in- please use the P & Rs- as BANES are using this match as a trial.

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:23:10:56:14 by P G Tips.

Thanks Coochie

I have raised this as a stand alone sticky for this week- to help give it extra publicity.

PG

Team's Up!

Bath Rugby: 15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Cameron Redpath, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Matt Gallagher, 10 Piers Francis, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Beno Obano, 2 Niall Annett, 3 D’Arcy Rae, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Quinn Roux, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Miles Reid

Impact players: 16 Tom Dunn, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Will Stuart, 19 GJ van Velze, 20 Jaco Coetzee, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Chris Cloete

Team Up. Reid, Ojomoh, de Glanville return.

Tom de Glanville is back in the starting XV for Bath Rugby’s West Country derby against Bristol Bears in the Gallagher Premiership.

The full-back has recovered from a fractured hand suffered in the Premiership Rugby Cup to take the 15 jersey in a fixture which saw him score the winning try with the clock in the red last season.

His inclusion sees Matt Gallagher switch to the left wing with Joe Cokanasiga continuing to operate on the right of the back three.

Max Ojomoh comes into the backline at inside centre, partnering Scotland returnee Cameron Redpath in the midfield, while the half-back duo of captain Ben Spencer and Piers Francis remains the same.

Hooker Niall Annett is in the front row alongside Beno Obano and D’Arcy Rae with Tom Dunn and Will Stuart named on the bench on their return from England duty.

Quinn Roux earns his first Premiership start since coming back from injury and partners Dave Attwood in the second row. Josh Bayliss starts at blindside flanker in a back row containing Sam Underhill and Miles Reid.

On the bench, Jaco Coetzee features in a matchday 23 for the first time this season.

Bath Rugby side to play Bristol Bears

Bath Rugby: 15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Cameron Redpath, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Matt Gallagher, 10 Piers Francis, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Beno Obano, 2 Niall Annett, 3 D’Arcy Rae, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Quinn Roux, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Miles Reid

Impact players: 16 Tom Dunn, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Will Stuart, 19 GJ van Velze, 20 Jaco Coetzee, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Chris Cloete

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Bit of a concerning line up for me other than great to see TdG back

- Francis over Bailey never feels like the right move
- may not line up this way (Bayliss could pack down at 8) but Reid seemed to have some issues controlling the ball at the back of scrums when he’s been there before
- can only assume FLW is injured. Van Velze a huge downgrade on both FLW and McNally

Lot of pressure to have a good kicking and chasing game tomorrow. If we’re loose there’s going to be problems

Quote:

theredseat
Bit of a concerning line up for me other than great to see TdG back
- Francis over Bailey never feels like the right move
- may not line up this way (Bayliss could pack down at 8) but Reid seemed to have some issues controlling the ball at the back of scrums when he’s been there before
- can only assume FLW is injured. Van Velze a huge downgrade on both FLW and McNally

Lot of pressure to have a good kicking and chasing game tomorrow. If we’re loose there’s going to be problems

Agree on Francis doesn’t fit the backline we have
- Don’t think it’s really a big issue at all tbh if we have scrum dominance it shouldn’t be an issue really. Think he’s no different than Bayliss is
- Neither McNally or FLW were good last week so I like the brutal nature JVG has sometimes. However I do agree I thought we’d seen the last of Van Velze


Overall very happy with the team bar Francis that was the exact backline I wanted this week and pack.

Well JvG has been robust in dropping Dunn, McNally & Joseph, but like others I cannot see why Francis gets the nod over Bailey- especially after last week's loose performance.

FLW was only recently back from injury so may need recovery time. Is W Spencer injured again?

PG

I'm more concerned with the fact that Francis went off for two HIAs last week and is playing 6 days later...

Bristol side, apart from Genge, Sinckler and Luatua I would say that’s our strongest starting side.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:23:12:45:35 by memnoch.

I'm more concerned with the fact that it really doesn't matter what team we put out - we still have absolutely no idea how it will go.

And as for that 6/2 bench split - it's just pitiful, the notion that swapping 6/8 forwards mid-match is going to actually help cohesion.

Quote:

hasta
I'm more concerned with the fact that Francis went off for two HIAs last week and is playing 6 days later...

he passed the HIA's so not sure what your point is. Its interesting that Spencer and Francis are getting a lot of criticism when they are playing to the game plan set by the coaches. Francis played incredibly well for Auckland Blue where he was fly half for the season. He didn't kick much and ran the backs well. My point is that he isn't a bad player and it has more to do with the coaches game plan.

Yes exactly, as ever I'm not as concerned about the personnel as the strategy and execution.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53
Yes exactly, as ever I'm not as concerned about the personnel as the strategy and execution.

+1

It doesn't seem to matter what team we field the LI game proves we will just find a way to be rubbish regardless. Still haven't decided weather to waste the energy going to the game or not and have zero optimism for any form of positive result for Bath.

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ollyshep

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hasta
I'm more concerned with the fact that Francis went off for two HIAs last week and is playing 6 days later...

he passed the HIA's so not sure what your point is. Its interesting that Spencer and Francis are getting a lot of criticism when they are playing to the game plan set by the coaches. Francis played incredibly well for Auckland Blue where he was fly half for the season. He didn't kick much and ran the backs well. My point is that he isn't a bad player and it has more to do with the coaches game plan.

He did but that was 6 years and many injuries ago and he’s barely played at 10 since we decided he was one again. he’s perfectly functional but can’t see any argument for him starting over Bailey right now

Yeah i accept what your saying but we need to read more into the coaching tactics and clearly we are looking to play and kicking / territory game and maybe they don't feel Bailey is the best person for that. I disagree with the tactics from the coaches as we're not seeing big territory gains and we are struggling with the lineout. We should play an attacking game and play Bailey at 10.

9 and 10 remain the vital, linked -fulcrum of game play, attack and style. Spencer and Francis v Randall and McGinty,
My betting money dances with bears.

Is Ted Hill injured?

Yes KS. Leg injusy in training- expected back in March.

PG

Quote:

Deckchair
9 and 10 remain the vital, linked -fulcrum of game play, attack and style. Spencer and Francis v Randall and McGinty,
My betting money dances with bears.

And that is just one very scary backline to go with them. I have such a horrible feeling about this game. Please Bath prove me wrong

We are going to get hammered, five game points to them, maybe a TBP for us. Rock bottom now and will be rock bottom still at 10.00pm tomorrow night. I will still be there though more in hope than expectation. It is the "hope" that kills ya.

Well that is "my team" except for Bailey for Francis.

Bristol are not much ahead of us so why are we going to be hammered........!

I have my son coming with me after his globetrotting and we have two guests who are Bristol supporters.

Everyone going to the Electric Bear Brewery before the game.......maybe need to over indulge in Tondo and Weeerd along with Sri Lankan Street Food to get through the match!!!

I’m giving this one a rest after the misery of last Saturday. Based on that performance I can’t see us winning, probably against any team, though strange things occasionally happen when you least expect them.

I think Bath will have a big response from last week! Bristol aren't that great and defiantly beatable. I'm surprised by people thinking we are going to get smashed every week and some Bath fans seem to still live in the 90's. This season has been a huge improvement on 21-22 season and Bath are building nicely our stats show it with less games played..... It was always going to take more than 1 season and we are heading in the right direction. Yes Leicester went from bottom to top in 1 season but look at where they are in the table this season.

Bath fans stop being fickle fans who change their opinion more than the weather.

Quote:

ollyshep
Bath fans stop being fickle fans who change their opinion more than the weather.

Yes sir, thanks for the advice on how to follow a team.

Interestingly Skybet has the game dead even. IF Bath were to change their approach tonight then they stand a chance, if they use the same tactics as used vs LI (and kick to Piutau all evening) then it will be carnage.

Looking at the full Prem table its amazing how few tries Bath score. Half the number of try bonus points when compared with every other team.

[www.premiershiprugby.com]

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Realistically not feeling at all positive about this. Hopefully some of the players fresh back from injury will be more up to speed after last week.

Quote:

ollyshep
I think Bath will have a big response from last week! Bristol aren't that great and defiantly beatable. I'm surprised by people thinking we are going to get smashed every week and some Bath fans seem to still live in the 90's. This season has been a huge improvement on 21-22 season and Bath are building nicely our stats show it with less games played..... It was always going to take more than 1 season and we are heading in the right direction. Yes Leicester went from bottom to top in 1 season but look at where they are in the table this season.
Bath fans stop being fickle fans who change their opinion more than the weather.

Did you actually watch the LI match OS. We won’t make real progress until we get the basics right most of the time. I am not inclined to view their progress through rose tinted spectacles

Progress? Really? We are bottom of the table again so I don’t view that as progress.

Unless we have miraculously found a lineout during this week and find a way to stop aimlessly kicking, Bristol are going to have their easiest 5pts of the season.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Unless we have miraculously found a lineout during this week and find a way to stop aimlessly kicking, Bristol are going to have their easiest 5pts of the season.

Whilst I don't disagree with the general view OB, I'm not sure that finding a way to stop kicking could reasonably described as 'miraculous'. You just have to...errr...stop kicking as much!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Progress?

Since going on one of our best runs of recent seasons - an intimidating 3-match winning streak culminating in a 1-point win over Tigers on 11 Nov, at which point the consensus was that we were indeed making some progress compared to last year, our record in the GP, ECC, 1 x friendly, and PRC reads:

L, L, L, L, L, L, W, L, D, L, L

P: 11
W: 1
D: 1
L: 9

Progress isn't binary IMO, not getting stuffed by 50 points most weeks must be progress? Whilst I think that the way that we are playing will result in fewer heavy defeats, I can't say that it is looking good for actual wins. Dare I say its starting to look a bit like some of the reviews of Munster last season?

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

There is a very gentle implied criticism in there Matt, personally I think it is too early, what JvG had at Munster was a big strong pack developed under G Rowntree. JvG has spread himself over two jobs her coach and DoR, I think thats too thin, its clear we need a line out coach but also I really think that Neal Hatley has gone stale and should have done better with FLW et al this season, first step is control up front given we are not leaking points as we did last season.
I have to say the pack for me is too polite! We seem to lack aggression and fire up front, Id like to see a bit more of the 'Milwall' approach.

To use the analogy of our DoR I think its time for some to get off the train.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

As a Bristol supporter I would say there's a lot of unnecessary gloom here.

Bristol have not been playing well at all & it's a lot more likely to be a score at the death decider than Bath getting hammered (much as I'd like that!).

Quote:

Jim H
As a Bristol supporter I would say there's a lot of unnecessary gloom here.

Not unnecessary when you are rock bottom of the table after finishing bottom last season (with half the points of mid table teams) Jim. It's hard to be bouyant in all honesty and I very much doubt that any Bath supporter actually looks forward to any Bath rugby game with anything other than a sense of creeping dread over the last couple of years.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

shipwrecked
There is a very gentle implied criticism in there Matt, personally I think it is too early, what JvG had at Munster was a big strong pack developed under G Rowntree. JvG has spread himself over two jobs her coach and DoR, I think thats too thin, its clear we need a line out coach but also I really think that Neal Hatley has gone stale and should have done better with FLW et al this season, first step is control up front given we are not leaking points as we did last season.
I have to say the pack for me is too polite! We seem to lack aggression and fire up front, Id like to see a bit more of the 'Milwall' approach.

To use the analogy of our DoR I think its time for some to get off the train.

+1

Quote:

BathMatt53
Progress isn't binary IMO, not getting stuffed by 50 points most weeks must be progress? Whilst I think that the way that we are playing will result in fewer heavy defeats, I can't say that it is looking good for actual wins. Dare I say its starting to look a bit like some of the reviews of Munster last season?

BM isn't the whole point of sport to win though? On that basis JvG has continued the failing regime Hooper put in place. I really hoped things would change under JvG, but the fact is we are still bottom and nothing has changed to suggest we will finish anywhere other than bottom.

I suggest Bristol will have the TBP wrapped up by half time.

Supporting Bath really does suck the enjoyment out of rugby for me, however the Super rugby season has now started so things are looking up. Coupled with a few random French trips to catch up with Top 14, the end of the PL season and all will be better again.

Quote:

OutsideBath
BM isn't the whole point of sport to win though?

Yes, but getting closer (i.e not being thrashed every week) is 'progress' towards winning isn't it? Throw us a bone!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

BathMatt53
Progress isn't binary IMO, not getting stuffed by 50 points most weeks must be progress? Whilst I think that the way that we are playing will result in fewer heavy defeats, I can't say that it is looking good for actual wins. Dare I say its starting to look a bit like some of the reviews of Munster last season?

BM isn't the whole point of sport to win though? On that basis JvG has continued the failing regime Hooper put in place. I really hoped things would change under JvG, but the fact is we are still bottom and nothing has changed to suggest we will finish anywhere other than bottom.

I suggest Bristol will have the TBP wrapped up by half time.

Supporting Bath really does suck the enjoyment out of rugby for me, however the Super rugby season has now started so things are looking up. Coupled with a few random French trips to catch up with Top 14, the end of the PL season and all will be better again.

I find it hard to believe we haven’t improved this season. Although we can all clearly see there still some big areas of improvement as a whole this season has been a lot better. The fight shown by a lot of players has massively improved and we have a young squad which is improving.

We all knew this would take time JVG hasn’t even arguably got a squad he wants. I think maybe people’s expectations were too high. There are still lots of games left this season and we will continue to get better. A Top 8 finish would be a good stepping stone imo. This won’t happen with Chatteris part of the coaching set up however

A bit of balance and maybe some positivity.

We were all clearly disappointed by the performance on Saturday as the last 5/6 premiership games have been wins or games we could/should have won at the death and the performances have been improved including tries from our much maligned lineout.

Even the top teams have off days and I think these appear much more significant when you are trying to build from a low base.

If we can return to the performance levels of the Saracens Sale or Exe game we should be well placed to beat Bristol who are having their own challenges this season.

Like everyone last week dented my optimism that we were travelling in the right direction but the players have a chance to put that right this evening.

Quote:

BathMatt53
Throw us a bone!

Bristol might get stuck in traffic on the way to the game...

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

BathMatt53
Throw us a bone!

Bristol might get stuck in traffic on the way to the game...

I'll take that! Bath by Home Walkover.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

When was the last time we put out a properly balanced back row, with an actual 8 at 8? I've not seen enough of Coetzee or Merigan to really judge, but they've not torn the house down.

I'm confident that if he can stay fit, Barbeary could have the sort of impact that Nathan Hughes did. He can't do it by himself but if he could be the tipping point to get a talented squad (on paper) firing.

Quote:

JK7
When was the last time we put out a properly balanced back row, with an actual 8 at 8? I've not seen enough of Coetzee or Merigan to really judge, but they've not torn the house down.
I'm confident that if he can stay fit, Barbeary could have the sort of impact that Nathan Hughes did. He can't do it by himself but if he could be the tipping point to get a talented squad (on paper) firing.

Good point, Faletau was always crocked, we have plenty that can fill in but Hughes was he last proper 8.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

JK7
When was the last time we put out a properly balanced back row, with an actual 8 at 8? I've not seen enough of Coetzee or Merigan to really judge, but they've not torn the house down.
I'm confident that if he can stay fit, Barbeary could have the sort of impact that Nathan Hughes did. He can't do it by himself but if he could be the tipping point to get a talented squad (on paper) firing.

The problem is 'we don't play on paper, we play on grass'.

Quote:

Mike the Taxi
The problem is 'we don't play on paper, we play on grass'.

I'll happily roll out a few sheets of A4 at the Rec if it would help...

If you only use league position as a gauge of improvements then clearly we haven't but you have to look deeper than that. Stats don't lie and that's what you should base performance on:

Bath have the same amount of losing bonus points as last year with 11 games in hand which shows a big improvement. Bath have the 5th best defence in the league compared to the 2nd worst last year.
we need 1 more win and we match last years wins for the season.

I think the stats above shows progress, yeah its not great and we would all like it to be more but its a step in the right direction.

Not sure why there should have been high expectation with the arrival of JVG - 99% of Munster fans were overjoyed to see him go, having led the team when wins and performances went downhill and style of play was too turgid even for many who loved the days of successful, Heineken-winning Munster (when they weren't the most ambitiously attacking side). I hope his contract has easy get out clauses for the club because if he won't allow Finn to play the Finn way next season (and why have him if you don't let him play the Finn way) then I suspect the Townsend/Russell fall-out of last season will pale into significance compared to the JVG/Russell fall-out that will follow.

But that said, for some reason I think both sides will be going wide a lot tonight

Quote:

ollyshep
If you only use league position as a gauge of improvements then clearly we haven't but you have to look deeper than that. Stats don't lie and that's what you should base performance on:
Bath have the same amount of losing bonus points as last year with 11 games in hand which shows a big improvement. Bath have the 5th best defence in the league compared to the 2nd worst last year.
we need 1 more win and we match last years wins for the season.

I think the stats above shows progress, yeah its not great and we would all like it to be more but its a step in the right direction.

Agree with this. Yes, it's comparing bad to worse but progress is progress and I struggle to believe that a squad like Bath's will continue to prop up the table. Naive, moi?

A better run with injuries, some confidence, Russell's introduction, a balanced back row and a lineout that does more good than harm...not much to ask!

I do think some coaching changes would help, though.

Quote:

Optimist
Progress?
Since going on one of our best runs of recent seasons - an intimidating 3-match winning streak culminating in a 1-point win over Tigers on 11 Nov, at which point the consensus was that we were indeed making some progress compared to last year, our record in the GP, ECC, 1 x friendly, and PRC reads:

L, L, L, L, L, L, W, L, D, L, L

P: 11
W: 1
D: 1
L: 9

All true Opti but most of those Prem losses [and certainly the most recent ones prior to the LI game] have all been one score defeats when last year they would have been in the range of comfortable win to hammering for the opposition

Not brilliant I agree but put that in the context of the 3 win run and there is some, arguably considerable, scope for hope

But despite my longer term optimism for movement up the table, for tonight I take one look at that Bristol side, especially the backline up against ours and I start to wonder at what point will I switch over to watch another episode of The Last of Us?

Inside first 30 mins?
At half time Whistle?
40 - 60 minute mark?
Final play and whistle?
or will there be some divine intervention that encourages me to watch right to the end of the programme?

And for those not familiar with TLoU it is a story of desperate journey for survival against far more powerful forces in an apocalyptic new order world

A lot of parallels really - the only difference I think is the lead players don't wear BBW

Have not been here for a while as I find it easily becomes a whinge fest, which can also be a knee jerk reaction. However, we Bath fans are long suffering. I posted about a year ago that I felt the club displayed a poor culture and that this was the root of our endless disappointing seasons. Well here we are a year later, a few personnel changes but the same situation. There is lack of quality leadership throughout the club with no-one capable of instilling a 'win' mentality and total commitment to the badge. Sadly, in my view, until that changes we can shuffle players and coaches all we like, but will not achieve.

Im not quite sure what ‘culture’ is but I think whatever it is it’s better this year at Bath than last.

Radrada v Mojo/Redpath doesn’t fill me with confidence, but the ‘best defensive 13 in the league’ JJ found it rather amusing waving him through in recent games, so fine to give someone else a go.

Anyhoo can’t be there tonight so on the sofa and, as ever, 5 minutes before kick off, I’m oddly optimistic! Let’s see if that feeling last until 8pm….

Ok so the lineout wasn't Dunn's fault then.

I am losing heart tbh.

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Quote:

WimborneBath
Have not been here for a while as I find it easily becomes a whinge fest, which can also be a knee jerk reaction. However, we Bath fans are long suffering. I posted about a year ago that I felt the club displayed a poor culture and that this was the root of our endless disappointing seasons. Well here we are a year later, a few personnel changes but the same situation. There is lack of quality leadership throughout the club with no-one capable of instilling a 'win' mentality and total commitment to the badge. Sadly, in my view, until that changes we can shuffle players and coaches all we like, but will not achieve.

That may be the case WB but what exactly would you propose doing about it? It’s no good just ringing your hands in despair wishing the so called “culture” to change but it means nothing if you don’t offer a solution!

Can't win lineout, can't kick goals. Tough to win a game.

Francis having a poor game, get OB on and give it a lash now please.

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Some of this is decent. Lots of it isn't.

Francis needs to start justifying his presence quickly, he's done very, very little of use so far.

Miles Reid for president!!

Quote:

JK7
Some of this is decent. Lots of it isn't.
Francis needs to start justifying his presence quickly, he's done very, very little of use so far.

Get him off immediately FFS.

Please get no 22 on!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

I thought he had just converted a try?

We’re so poor but fortunately Bristol aren’t much better. A mess of a game. Quite entertaining - but like a completely different sport to France v Ireland or Leicester v Saracens.

Get Bailey on at half time.

Why is Francis anywhere near this team? No distribution, kicking appalling. Offers nothing Bailey doesn’t and at least Bailey has a passing game.

...and a penalty?

Quote:

Mike the Taxi
...and a penalty?

So the bare minimum that Spencer, De Glanville, Gallagher and possibly Redpath and Ojomoh could do.

D'Arcy Rae needs to come off as well, just not good enough at this level.

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Flarp.

How many pens have Bris conceded?

Quote:

gaz59
But despite my longer term optimism for movement up the table, for tonight I take one look at that Bristol side, especially the backline up against ours and I start to wonder at what point will I switch over to watch another episode of The Last of Us?
Inside first 30 mins?
At half time Whistle?
40 - 60 minute mark?
Final play and whistle?
or will there be some divine intervention that encourages me to watch right to the end of the programme?

And for those not familiar with TLoU it is a story of desperate journey for survival against far more powerful forces in an apocalyptic new order world

A lot of parallels really - the only difference I think is the lead players don't wear BBW

Well, still watching but got to say, we've got no issues with Carley tonight

Quote:

hasta
Flarp.
How many pens have Bris conceded?

Last 8 have been Briz pens according to commentary

To be fair, we’re 10-7 ahead and they’ve given away about 10 penalties. So whilst our performance has been MILES off being perfect, and we are only 3 points up, we’ve been the better team.

Stuart, Dunn, Cloete, Coetzee to bring power off the bench and we could well win this. Radrada the threat, of course.

I just wish we looked like we were enjoying ourselves a bit more. It all seems so lacking in confidence, and the atmosphere feels so nervy. Agree with Austin on commentary- kick to the corner, fire the crowd up, get Mojo on the ball, give it a go.

Too easy.

What is Attwood doing? Amateurish.

The 6-2 bench split is hurting us here ... Completely disrupted set of backs

Very good assassination of our attack by Austin just then. Actually came just before our best period of attack, which happened with Schreduer pinging the ball away at 9.

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Very good assassination of our attack by Austin just then. Actually came just before our best period of attack, which happened with Schreduer pinging the ball away at 9.

Yep, he said that there’s no play other than off 9; which suggests with Francis at 10 there’s no ball going via what should be one of the primary distributors/playmakers. Offers nothing.

The lack of confidence is staggering. The players look shot. Talented youngster Bailey and Mojo running into acres of space and somehow contrive to eat up the space and knock it on…

Hammer... Like most on here I am not qualified to offer solutions, if I could I would seek the job. I am a fan and offer my opinion, for what it is worth. It seems that you are saying that no-one should offer opinions unless they have the solution. Better men than me so far have not. As far as I have experience in the effects of an organisation's culture on it employees then we are looking at changes from the very top, and in aspects of how that organisation is run. It seems to me that Bath Rugby still has one foot in the amateur camp in a lot it does, and has consistently been behind the curve as other clubs have developed.

Well. The lineout has improved.

Quote:

hasta
Well. The lineout has improved.

Couldn’t really have got much worse!

Francis again…

Let's be honest. Both teams deserve to lose.

How much to get Russell in early? He doesn't even need to run around, just having someone to take kicks would be an improvement.

Please. Please change. Please. This is so awful. Come on Johann. Your not an idiot. You have to change.

We will not win another game this season.

Two terrible team creating the worst game shown on TV this season by a distance.
Utter utter dross.

If you're going to keep playing this slowly you'll keep losing.

Chuck the ball around and play at pace. At least it would amount to rugby.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:24:21:47:50 by CoochieCoo.

Well, initial reaction to that is to doubt JVG for the first time.

If we can't beat that Bristol outfit at home, we won't beat anyone anywhere. Some things are so glaringly obviously poor that it's frankly worrying that they aren't being rectified.

'It takes time' is not a valid explanation for some of this stuff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:24:21:32:16 by JK7.

Wonder what the most penalties ever conceded by a winning team is?

Awful. A complete and utter mess.

Crikey. Since the demise of Wasps this is the first game I’ve watched all the way through. It was utterly embarrassing. Bristol were error strewn, inaccurate and clueless. And they won. There is something seriously wrong with Bath. People keep saying there is talent on the team sheet. That’s as maybe but the performance on the pitch is pitiful. No cohesion, no plan, no craft, no skills, no vision, no brains (esp 2nd row). Genuinely one of the worst games of rugby skills wise I’ve ever watched.

On commentary they just said that it wasn't one to remember. Are any of our games really?

Austin Healey's analysis of our attack was spot on. Essentially there is no attack. Too narrow, too slow, no plan.

There is no way that any rugby player wants to play this way. It has to be what they are being told to do. Why, I have no idea.

I have serious doubts about Maddock and to be honest Van Graan. This lack of attack has been the case in every match we have played this season. Why are we still playing the same way. I hope nobody sends the video of this or any other of our matches to Paris. If Finn Russell watches it I think he will be rocking in a corner somewhere. Total inept rubbish every week

Quote:

WimborneBath
Hammer... Like most on here I am not qualified to offer solutions, if I could I would seek the job. I am a fan and offer my opinion, for what it is worth. It seems that you are saying that no-one should offer opinions unless they have the solution. Better men than me so far have not. As far as I have experience in the effects of an organisation's culture on it employees then we are looking at changes from the very top, and in aspects of how that organisation is run. It seems to me that Bath Rugby still has one foot in the amateur camp in a lot it does, and has consistently been behind the curve as other clubs have developed.

This is the best post on here.. Look what happened at Leicester, England cricket etc after a complete change of personnel. Bath are so stale compared to all the other teams and the players look like they are lost and bewildered and that is because they have no direction from the top

Yeh, ditto JK. Last week and tonight have me doubting if we have the right guys at the helm as what they’re serving up isn’t in any way enjoyable (and I enjoy all types of rugby) and I don’t think it is building anything positive for the future. We look so poorly coached, even our basics are terrible, and being “hard to beat” is a ridiculous measure of success.

Remarkable how a dry Friday night match versus Bristol played by the “on paper” Bath XV could be that bad and bereft of any imagination or excitement. Bizarre also that if Francis could kick we’d have won.

JVG... 4 from 19

Hmmm

Quote:

dannyf2
JVG... 4 from 19
Hmmm

I too am now doubting JVG. Who signed Maddock? Did JvG ask for him specifically? Surely Charteris must be out of time now? We are losing games by less for sure thanks to JPF but we are also losing games we should have won e.g. tonight and Sale away. Callard's impact appears to be negative. Did JvG ask for him too? I don't have any answers to our woes nor does the team paid to come up with them. V dispiriting and god help us v Tigers away.

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Quote:

Upinthehills

Quote:

WimborneBath
Hammer... Like most on here I am not qualified to offer solutions, if I could I would seek the job. I am a fan and offer my opinion, for what it is worth. It seems that you are saying that no-one should offer opinions unless they have the solution. Better men than me so far have not. As far as I have experience in the effects of an organisation's culture on it employees then we are looking at changes from the very top, and in aspects of how that organisation is run. It seems to me that Bath Rugby still has one foot in the amateur camp in a lot it does, and has consistently been behind the curve as other clubs have developed.

This is the best post on here.. Look what happened at Leicester, England cricket etc after a complete change of personnel. Bath are so stale compared to all the other teams and the players look like they are lost and bewildered and that is because they have no direction from the top

As far as I am aware in both cases the effective changes at Leicester & England cricket were made at sporting director & team captain level. We have only just recruited a D of R, defence coach & attack coach & changed the captain. The owner & chief executive don’t have any direct involvement in the playing side, the academy side is beating everyone & we have no difficulty in retaining our best players & signing others. Obviously the team is serving up dross, still, but all this vague stuff about changing things at the very top won’t happen and anyway these days that sort of disruption is hardly something to wish for. It might, though, be worth replacing the coaches who were left over from the old regime.

Quote:

Clarkey3k

Quote:

dannyf2
JVG... 4 from 19
Hmmm

I too am now doubting JVG. Who signed Maddock? Did JvG ask for him specifically? Surely Charteris must be out of time now? We are losing games by less for sure thanks to JPF but we are also losing games we should have won e.g. tonight and Sale away. Callard's impact appears to be negative. Did JvG ask for him too? I don't have any answers to our woes nor does the team paid to come up with them. V dispiriting and god help us v Tigers away.

I'm not so sure theses are JvG picks Clarkey, smacks of the 'Bath Legacy' concept to me being both ex Bath players. Now ask yourself who is always going on about the 'Bath' identity?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

JVG interview on BT after the match worries me as he didn't have any answers on turning it around. Healey in commentary questioned how Russell fits our style of play and how Spencer needs to change his style completely at Scrum half next season. It appears to me that JVG might be a good DOR but not head coach.

Hooper?

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Quote:

Clarkey3k
Hooper?

Pure guess on my part or BC.

Just on JvG, I've made my comments on the combined role but I think he is the logical type of coach who fixes one thing at a time. Say what you like about the rugby he played at Munster last season but he left a big legacy that Graham Rowntree is profiting from they beat Ospreys 58-3 last time out based on their big pack driving the ball forward then feeding the backs through Carberry.
You have to fix the forwards first don't you? The defence is massively improved. I say again we need a proper back up 10 Francis is simply a fudge. At the moment we can't even play proper 10 man rugby!




Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

So many questions. Why didn’t our left footed kicker take pens to the right of the posts? Why are we so slow at rucks? Why do we not have the basic skills to get to the line in the red zone. Why are our lineouts a complete lottery? Why have we not got any confidence? Who are the leaders and where are they? Very poor.

We don't have an identity. Last week we were too slow... So this week we get faux 'tempo'. It wasn't convincing, the players didn't believe in it and it didn't work.

We won't have anything for the likes of Russell to build upon next season, yet the pressure will be absolutely against another rebuilding season.

JvG has got his work cut out. I dont think the coaching is working - you can't have a focus during the week and not have it work. I don't think this enlarged squad has taught us anything- just looks like a number of journeyman who know they won't be here next season. I don't think the basics are good enough...

Quite frankly is it worth keeping any of the coaching team for next season?

JvG has failed miserably, we are no better than last season.

Surely there is someone out there who can turn Bath into at least a top 8 side?

Advice to Finn Russell, exercise your get out clause now because you are wasting your time joining Bath with this coaching setup.

Dreadful game between a poor team and an awful team.

Healey was spot on- the attacking strategy is give slow ball to a static forward to get smashed backwards. 'They are terrible'.

Also 'this squad with these names shouldn't be bottom of the league'.

Also agree with him that playing with more pace isn't exactly asking the world and can even be done with mediocre players.

I find it bizarre how terrified they are to play any rugby. What's the worst that will happen.... be 12th out of 11 teams? They bring relegation back in this season so BT dont have to waste televised games on us?

All v odd and demoralising, we are ruining a lot of good players sadly.

The thing that stood out for me having just got back from the game is our inability to translate any sort of pressure into points.

On this particular occasion, we were benefitting from a lot of refereeing decisions going our way, and yet we seemingly had no tools in our arsenal to extract any points from these advantageous positions. There are teams in this league that would have translated that into a 40+ point score.

More pragmatic sides (which I think is how Bath are looking to play predominantly) would use these opportunities to keep the scoreboard ticking over until eventually the opposition was at arms length, however this necessitates a fly half who can reliably slot them over from anywhere in the opposition half (which sadly Francis doesn't look like doing).

Some sides would repeatedly pin the opposition back by kicking to touch, knowing that they can turn the screw further with a dominant (or even just functional) line out. After the last 2 weeks, I would guess all other sides in the league would back themselves to repel our attacking lineouts given how little they seem to offer. Imagine if Gloucester had been awarded that many penalties? They probably would have had the BP wrapped up by halftime.

You even get sides (like Bristol of previous seasons) who would see a penalty as an opportunity to ramp the pace of the game, tapping and going so that the opposition has no time to reorganise, profiting from chaotic, open play rugby. Our backline seems to be lacking in any sort chemistry that would make this a legitimate threat to other sides.

I guess the ultimate indictment of where we currently find ourselves is that we are dangerously predictable. Sides know the ball won't go wide, so they can leave more players in the centre of the field to disrupt our breakdown, slowing the ball down to the point where we inevitably kick it away. They also know that our lineout is a lottery, so kicking the ball out will give them an excellent opportunity to regain possession again and make huge territorial gains. Finally they know we don't have a reliable place kicker, so ill-discipline isn't likely to be punished in the merciless way some teams are able to, and they can therefore push the boundaries more in search of turnovers/scores themselves.

The fact that we have become unable to perform any of the fundamental components of this style of rugby (i.e. solid set piece, winning the gainline in attack and defence, clinical point scoring) in a dominant way means sides don't have to worry about what threats we're going to pose, and can instead focus purely on their gameplan, in the knowledge that there will be virtually no variety from ourselves that could catch them by surprise.

Quote:

charlieboa
All v odd and demoralising, we are ruining a lot of good players sadly.

This .... Bailey is not what he was with the U20s, Richards isn't getting a game either (I know he's crocked), Mojo as well.
Look at Exeter they are blooding Greg Fisilau, Christ Tshiunza, Dafydd Jenkins (2nd R), Iwan Jenkins (10) and perhaps Joe Hawkins (12).


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Just watched the game.

*sigh*

I'm presuming that JvG's current calm demeanour means that a fair number of the players on the pitch today will not be in the BBW next season. But I look at the talent we have and ask myself how is it possible that we are so badly organised as a team? Even when Briz were down to 14, they looked like they had more men on the pitch.

My MotM - Beno. The only spark of hope on the field.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:25:01:27:38 by joethefanatic.

The spine of any team, 2,8,9,10 shape the fortunes of any team, unfortunately we have either payers out of form or out of position in these jerseys. We looked completely void of leadership and direction which is a big worry but most of all as others have said, we look scared to try anything. Cant be much fun for any of the players as well as us.

Quote:

Mike the Taxi
I thought he had just converted a try?

Quite a lot of us did. Reminiscent of the drop goal attempt at Ashton Gate. Inches.

Should have won that but for child like kicking.

J

One kick with 4 mins left and we’re having a different post match discussion.

"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"

To me, the key problem is ruck speed. Ours must be the slowest average in the league. It kills our attack stone dead. That has to be down to the 9.

We managed their sin bin so badly - Bristol must have had possession for 7+ of the 10 minutes. We had a lineout and wasted a chunk, and then had a scrum and wasted the rest, both by really slow set ups.

Simply there is no pace or urgency in the Bath game, and without it, we might still be hard to beat, but beat we will continue to be.

Quote:

Griff
One kick with 4 mins left and we’re having a different post match discussion.

We'd all be happier for sure, but the discussion on how badly we play would remain.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

charlieboa
All v odd and demoralising, we are ruining a lot of good players sadly.

This .... Bailey is not what he was with the U20s, Richards isn't getting a game either (I know he's crocked), Mojo as well.
Look at Exeter they are blooding Greg Fisilau, Christ Tshiunza, Dafydd Jenkins (2nd R), Iwan Jenkins (10) and perhaps Joe Hawkins (12).

Richards was great last season, esp in this fixture where he was am absolute beast.

He comes back after a few months injured and is packed off to Taunton.

Cj van velze comes back after 4 months out having been below mediocre when he played and is straight into the 23.

There is no reward in selection for playing well in bath colours.

Number 57 on my list of 428 gripes about what is going on at the club.

May as well moan about 6;2 split while I am at it.

Already have redpayh playing at 13 where he has been nowhere near as effective as 12 every time we have decided its a clever idea.

Then have to move mojo to wing.... then have 10 mins where god knows who is playing where due to tdg binning (who looks like he has been told to bulk up and slow down by looks of it).

All to allow coetzee to come on at 77 mins to change the game when we need to score fron 80 yds.

It should be a condition in DoR/Head Coach contracts that when they retire they have to write a book explaining their decision making.

I've often thought Eddie Jones' would be fascinating, seeing a case for JVG now.

For my positive 2 pence, Beno Obano was head and shoulders our best player last night. A scrummaging, ball carrying, stone-wall-in-defence masterclass. He was class.

Part of me knows that JvG has a lot to fix and has made us much more resilient but please can we have some ambition.

As a fan I really hate:

a. 6-2 splits. It is an immediate concession that we don't care about scoring points through handling and creative play.
b. Constant box-kicking especially in their half!
c. A part time fly-half who doesn't want to play there and who doesn't attack the line
d. Only ever trying to play ball-handling rugby in the last 2 minutes when it is too late.
e. Slow ball from the base
f. One off runners 2 yards away from the previous ruck

Please can we use the rest of the season to try and create an attacking platform!

Quote:

Deckchair
9 and 10 remain the vital, linked -fulcrum of game play, attack and style. Spencer and Francis v Randall and McGinty,
My betting money dances with bears.

And so it came to pass. And very slowly at that.
Our 9 and 10 are simply not up to it. Spencer is too slow to the ruck, slow to distribute, has a weak pass, box-kicks too long because he can't think of anything better and has no vision, energy or get-go. Compare and contrast with Randall. Francis can only garner sympathy for someone on a continual roll of mares and who can see or do nothing to get out of it. He must feel like hell.
The whole timbre, style, energy and flair of a team comes from the 9,10 combo. Good ones can squeeze victory even when the team is playing pants, like Bristol last night.
JVG's seeming phlegmatic response to the latest clueless turgid fest I can only hope to be a sign that he is pondering and keeping his powder dry in readiness for a major cull and reboot in the close season. In his sights will certainly be the 9, and he will probably add a few other numbers for the ferryboat out. Too many at Bath are playing on reputations, not contributions. And too many are past their peak impact date.
And boy do we need an on-filed leader of quality, enterprise, and inspiration.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:25:09:23:54 by Deckchair.

Made a late decision to go to the game, what a mistake that was! Absolute garbage and a waste of 80 mins, our coaches offer no value whatsoever.

Looking on the bright side though the extended P&R was a real bonus, so well done to the club for getting this arranged.

Thought van Velze was ok! Put himself about, carried a bit (although usually got crumpled) and seemed to calm down the line out.

(straw firmly clutched)

Made a late decision not to go to the game last night (first time in 39 years of having a season ticket not going to a home game that I was able to). Not regretting the decision, but still gutted from reading all the comments this morning. Also now not sure that even the prospect of watching Finn Russell in a Bath shirt taking all those restart kicks after we’ve conceded tries justifies the next season ticket…

I always thought Finn Russell was a disastrous signing. I can’t imagine a worse fit. JVG + Russell. Truly bizarre.

And I’ll say it again. We hired a kicking coach instead of a skills coach. It’s just one blunder of a decision after another.

Quote:

bathonian80
And I’ll say it again. We hired a kicking coach instead of a skills coach. It’s just one blunder of a decision after another.

Be interested to know who thought that was a good idea.

Unless JvG admits the job is too big for him, he'll be with us for next season. However surely the lineout, scrum, attack, mind and kicking coach all have to go. Perhaps Russell is going to double up as skills coach?

Bumped into Austin Healey in the drinks queue in the Swift Half late on.

Me "Mr Healey what is the one thing you would do to improve Bath Rugby"

AH "Play with more tempo and drop BenSpencer"

Me "Thank you, my view (as set out on the LI thread) exactly"

You echoed my thoughts exactly VL, I went to the Irish match full of hope and optimism and came away in despair at the lack of ambition shown by both the coaching staff and team. I can only assume Spencer is yet another fine player Bath where seem to have broken his natural attacking flair.

I have held a season ticket since the 80's and decided it was not worth the drive to go to the match to watch such rubbish and even Finn Russell, who plays the game as I like to see it being played, is not enough to convince me to renew next year.

I am not convinced by JvG, but we have had so many rebuilding seasons under the current owner that there must be something at the heart of the club consigning us to permanent failure. The players seem to be a bunch of individuals without any bonding and there seems to be no real team spirit They look far too comfortable playing dreadful rugby and nobody is shaking them out of their torpor.

Stop the 6/2 split, stop kicking for goal, take the restraints off Spencer and give it a lash, we are probably going to lose the rest of the matches no matter how we play, at least try to give the crowd a little bit of entertainment.

After 30 minutes (?) Bristol had been in our 22 once and scored and converted we were dominant in territory and posession and had no points!

Quote:

bathonian80
I always thought Finn Russell was a disastrous signing. I can’t imagine a worse fit. JVG + Russell. Truly bizarre.
And I’ll say it again. We hired a kicking coach instead of a skills coach. It’s just one blunder of a decision after another.

Kicking coach was the right idea but was it the right kicking coach? Ditto attack coach. If JvG can go and get Stephen Larkham then why go and get Joe Maddock, he has a good record but clearly not the best.

Within this club there is an ethos of minimalist coaching. Three regimes in a row we have seen Joint DoR/HC roles can one man do all that that job entails? We had a skills coach a while ago (Sam Vesty) but got rid. B80 is right we need one.
How long has it taken to appoint a chairman? By a process of elimination can anyone point at JvG and say with 100% its all down to him? There are far too many coincidences for me, I'm not sure who drives the coaching appointments but I don't think JvG has a totally free choice and he is too much of a gent to cast blame elsewhere.

Coaches need an overhaul!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Another awful game.

Randall’s speed and accuracy of passes was clear for all to see. What happened to the Ben Spencer that lit up our backs when he first arrived from Sarries?

Unfortunately PF just doesn’t seem to be working. Need to stick with Bailey.

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
Bumped into Austin Healey in the drinks queue in the Swift Half late on.
Me "Mr Healey what is the one thing you would do to improve Bath Rugby"

AH "Play with more tempo and drop Ben Spencer"

Me "Thank you, my view (as set out on the LI thread) exactly"

But what if Spencer is doing exactly what the coaches want him to do? Harsh to drop him for following instructions.

The fundamental problem at Bath is the coaching setup, in particular the lack of both a DOR and HC along with the lack of a skills coach. We are prepared to waste millions on signing Finn Russell, yet won't spend the money on a full coaching setup.... Why?

My thoughts it looks like we are playing to a plan presumably designed by JVG and implemented by Spencer based on defence and forwards and box kicking. Hence picking Francis and 6:2 split.
Note to JVG it isn’t working… so do you keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome
( madness) or do you change it. It has become so predictable even 14 can defend against it.
It needs to change now not wait for next season. Play with some ambition and so what if we lose we will anyway if we don’t change.
Spencer can play faster he always used to and put some variation in there not just blatting it up through the next forward along the line. We need to play to win not to try not to lose.

Ben Spencer is a big boy now, if the coaches instructions are to box kick in the opposition half and count to 3 at the base of rucks when you have an overlap maybe he should have the balls to ignore them. Surely no player enjoys being made to look brainless, esp a class , experienced one like spencer.

Breaks my heart seeing all these class u18s in the set up cos all I think is ' they will be ruined by a few years in the senior system '.

Agree on the positive comments re beno- genuinely looks the fully rounded finished article now his scrummaging has gone up a level.

First and foremost I hate losing - however I am shocked at some of the comments on here.

Have we forgotten what an absolute shambles JVG and his new coaching team walked into and yet 8 months down the line people are saying we are doomed - I haven’t seen any 70 point thrashings and apart from a couple of games we have been hugely competitive throughout and just things haven’t gone our way but what a transformation l.

We lost to Bristol a team that has been settled with a coach who has been there for 2-4 years building his vision with Million pound world stars in their ranks .

JVG inherited a seriously flawed squad completely unbalanced and rudderless.

All I would say is give JVG at least another year possibly longer before sharpening your daggers.

We have improved significantly this season and I am sure this will continue just keep the faith.

I know we are all fed up but this season was always going to be a foundation block season setting things in place and JVG understanding who is staying or going in the squad.

Anyway that’s my take.

Quote:

Griff
One kick with 4 mins left and we’re having a different post match discussion.

Not in total agreement with you because the performance was still dire. When Spencer arrived at Bath, I thought he would bring real tempo into our game but he just slows everything down to a snail's pace and then box kicks. For once I agree with Austin Healey, Ben Spencer needs to be getting the ball away far quicker. If we start with him, we can then deal with the other 14 players.
It is just so disappointing and simply awful to watch!

Quote:

Ali1969
Anyway that’s my take.

Agree with your take to a large degree Ali but even accounting for your very valid reasoning, there are things that don't add up.

A good example among many is ruck speed. No matter how long you persevere with painfully slow ball, it isn't going to work as a winning tactic. I'm not saying it's easy to address but at the same time it can't be that difficult to tell Spencer to hurry things up and if he won't do it, someone else can.

Worryingly, it seems more likely that it's the game plan rather than Spencer's failing. In which case, does JvG really think it's the way to build things for the long term? Because it's doing very little good in the short term. Where's the benefit in continuing with it? What are JvG and Maddock seeing in the attacking performances that's stopping them from making changes?

The writing was on the wall the moment i saw Mr Hooper and Mr Charteris on the pitch before kick off discussing the finer points !!

But really another game we could and should have won, when Ben Spencer arrived he played with tempo and took chances now completely different player (Coaching) ?

As others have said " a lack of on-field leadership is part of the problem" i agree.

The first 20 mins in Bristols half and no points set the tone .

I am prepared to give JVG (not sure about the other coaches) another season before i hand in our long standing 30 year season tickets !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Quote:

charlieboa
Breaks my heart seeing all these class u18s in the set up cos all I think is ' they will be ruined by a few years in the senior system '.

Totally on board with this comment, I'm completely confused as to how the senior squad integrate young players.
Bailey played by necessity to start but when Priestland left he was simply dropped in as a frontline 10.
Cipriani never played to share the load.
Fine but as soon as his game became stressed (kicking) he had nobody to refer to! The club's solution was to give the kicking to Spencer, what other club does that?
Francis is never a regular fly half. Other fly half peers had the like of Dan Biggar to turn to.

Now look at Sam Harris he is a raw talent that is super fast, has a massive pass and a huge boot. For England he is allowed to express himself but he makes mistakes, thing is when he gets it right he is spectacular. I can see him being a game changing player like Arundell but won't he will get told to play conservative and not take risks in the senior squad. Hs kicking can be off so does that rule out his participation?
I just hope wherever he goes he gets to play his natural game but I'm concerned he might get snapped up by someone else.

How does Mojo or GHW feel when he sees Bailey restricted or Gabe Goss? Has Tom Doughty been given a chance to develop.
JvG might be protecting them but I'm not sure its helping their development.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying Ali and it aligns with jvg stance of season 1 being 'making is hard to beat'. I guess when the target is 'not being a total embarrassment" fans soon hope for more once that is achieved.

Apologies but I still think having ambitions of beating a second from bottom, hopelessly out of sorts bris, whose head coach is under serious pressure, at the rec... when pretty much every ref decision goes our way isn't unreasonable 8 months in.

As for unbalanced and flawed squad, again I kind of agree it needs a revamp but I think a lot of dor's would be delighted with our flawed squad.... beno, dunn, stuart, flw, hill, underhill, spencer, redpath, lawrence, coko etc etc .

I would have settled for losing whilst looking like we vaguely knew what we were trying to do in possession a couple of times.

The trouble is we need to see progress with the ball this season unless we all believe that we can suddenly magically transform over the summer (finn won't arrive til Nov I assume).

It doesn't feel like rocket science to me- occasionally play off 10 not just 9. Sometimes get the ball away from the ruck in under 3 seconds, occasionally don't stand 3 -4 forward runners between the 9 and 10. I am with Healey- it shouldn't be difficult to raise you pace and stress defences.

As for 'one kick and its a different post match discussion' - probably right but my opinion wouldn't have changed tbh, it would have just felt like papering over cracks.

Worth noting we won this fixture last season - admittedly it was last minute and they had a man sent off early but we actually played some OK rugby and richards had a stormer.

Have we had a single line break in two home games against bottom of the table opposition?

Quote:

hasta
Have we had a single line break in two home games against bottom of the table opposition?

My favourite topic, the answer is NO, but you have to give it to the backs to do that. Tricky when its 30m vertically up.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:25:13:44:30 by shipwrecked.

To be fair to JvG, I approach these defeats with a frustration at what could be, rather than the utter, hopeless desperation last season. Losing by >50 points is something I hope never to see repeated again.

We're in a place where, if we were better, we could win these games. That was not the place we were in last season.

But this incredibly turgid style of rugby makes it really hard to see those positives...

I am now done for the season, even though I have two season tickets we will not be at the Rec again. We have just played at home, two of the sides closet to us and have lost them both. I cannot remember one exciting backs move by us, in the last two games that has got the crowd roaring and of its feet. In fact the last one I can remember was the last minute try v Tigers when we actually passed the ball at pace along the line.
Having looked at the remaining fixtures I can't see any wins and I think we will gain no more than 3 points in total.
How anyone can honestly say we have progressed is beyond me.

Quote:

nick holder
How anyone can honestly say we have progressed is beyond me.

We haven't lost 64-0 to Gloucester in the league, or 71-17 to Sarries or 43-27 to the team one place above us when we could have avoided coming bottom. Not to mention the other group of games where teams put 40+ on us...

This season is bad enough but I never want to go through a season like the one before again.

Quote:

nick holder
I am now done for the season, even though I have two season tickets we will not be at the Rec again. We have just played at home, two of the sides closet to us and have lost them both. I cannot remember one exciting backs move by us, in the last two games that has got the crowd roaring and of its feet. In fact the last one I can remember was the last minute try v Tigers when we actually passed the ball at pace along the line.
Having looked at the remaining fixtures I can't see any wins and I think we will gain no more than 3 points in total.
How anyone can honestly say we have progressed is beyond me.

I do agree NH. Not only is continually losing highly dispiriting but as a spectacle we are serving up nothing worth watching. I expect us to lose the rest of our matches but not necessarily by huge margins. It doesn’t seem to matter whom we play, the outcome is invariably a narrow loss.

Imagine if you were a Welsh Bath fan.................

Quote:

Dorset Boy
Imagine if you were a Welsh Bath fan.................

Living on the south coast and second team Southampton or Bournemouth.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

The Bear

Quote:

nick holder
How anyone can honestly say we have progressed is beyond me.

We haven't lost 64-0 to Gloucester in the league, or 71-17 to Sarries or 43-27 to the team one place above us when we could have avoided coming bottom. Not to mention the other group of games where teams put 40+ on us...

This season is bad enough but I never want to go through a season like the one before again.

Nor I, when the final whistle blew after that demoralising defeat at Worcester I drove home reflecting on what had been the worse season in memory. I drew a line under it in the belief that JVG would in time restore my pride in the club I have supported for nearly 50 years. There have been some positives from the narrow wins and defeats and with some clever recruitment the future looks promising but I have no idea what has happened since those gutsy performances away to Sale and Glasgow in January. To produce 2 awful performances in the space of a week something has gone dreadfully wrong at Farleigh. The break in matches has not been managed properly and I hope the coaches, players and management address it now, the set back in performance is unacceptable for supporters. I have my tickets for Leicester and Northampton and whilst accepting wins are unlikely I do expect to see something better than the dross served up in the last 2 games.

When the chron is dishing out loads of 5s and a 3 you know it's a truly dire performance

[www.somersetlive.co.uk]

Quote:

The Bear

Quote:

nick holder
How anyone can honestly say we have progressed is beyond me.

We haven't lost 64-0 to Gloucester in the league, or 71-17 to Sarries or 43-27 to the team one place above us when we could have avoided coming bottom. Not to mention the other group of games where teams put 40+ on us...

This season is bad enough but I never want to go through a season like the one before again.

That’s a pretty low bar for measuring improvement Bear. Personally I don’t see that JvG has improved us at all.

Those Chron marks are pretty accurate IMO.

Quote:

Kidney Stone
Those Chron marks are pretty accurate IMO.

Agree, only a few escape with any credit in the bank.

I am in the '8 months at a club training and playing most days of most weeks gives you enough time to have some kind of idea what to do in possession' camp.

Also in the 'prepared to hold off fully judging jvg til towards this time next season' camp. Its not fully his squad and coaching staff currently, it should be next season. we are moving in right direction, albeit glacially.

Picked up on a comment made quite a few hours ago that Stuart Hooper was seen on the pitch prematch with Charteris - who is supposedly the line out specialist. Why is Hooper anywhere near the coaching team? Just shows that nothing has changed has it now? Is he still on the payroll? Rude questions I know, but hadn't we all understood that he was nothing to do with the playing side now. I give up.

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

Kidney Stone
Those Chron marks are pretty accurate IMO.

Agree, only a few escape with any credit in the bank.

I am in the '8 months at a club training and playing most days of most weeks gives you enough time to have some kind of idea what to do in possession' camp.

Also in the 'prepared to hold off fully judging jvg til towards this time next season' camp. Its not fully his squad and coaching staff currently, it should be next season. we are moving in right direction, albeit glacially.

Do you think we will have coaching staff changes? i.e. will JvG actually be allowed to have the staff he really wants?

I wouldn't be massively surprised to see one or two changes in the coaching team over the summer.

I certainly wouldn't underestimate jvg's strength of character to get what he wants. End of the day its his reputation on the line, if he feels like he is being let down by anyone I don't think he would be afraid to make changes (and to not support his decisions would be foolish , undermine the whole thing and have no idea whose purpose that would serve in any way)

Quote:

annie blackthorn
Picked up on a comment made quite a few hours ago that Stuart Hooper was seen on the pitch prematch with Charteris - who is supposedly the line out specialist. Why is Hooper anywhere near the coaching team? Just shows that nothing has changed has it now? Is he still on the payroll? Rude questions I know, but hadn't we all understood that he was nothing to do with the playing side now. I give up.

Yes, he is still on the payroll. It was announced that he was to be general manager with overall responsibility for most of the functions outside the first team for which JvG has overall charge. I must say that in those circumstances I am surprised to see him on the field of play on a match day. I think there should be changes. Charteris has been ineffective & seemingly so has Maddock, though he might be hampered by a strange approach that focuses entirely on defence. Like others, I also feel that Hatley should no longer have a coaching tole with us. The idea that JvG is both DOR & head coach also seems puzzling.

Quote:

The Bear

Quote:

nick holder
How anyone can honestly say we have progressed is beyond me.

We haven't lost 64-0 to Gloucester in the league, or 71-17 to Sarries or 43-27 to the team one place above us when we could have avoided coming bottom. Not to mention the other group of games where teams put 40+ on us...

This season is bad enough but I never want to go through a season like the one before again.

All true TB but you look at the quality of the squad, player by player and you have to say that we should be turning in performances like that against Tigers and Sale consistently

I can take losing at home to Brizzle. I can take losing when a win was there for the taking. What I really find so depressing is the total lack of any spark in our attack. We had 30 minutes of possession deep in Bristol territory and at no point did we look like doing anything with it other than try and bull doze inch by inch

We had a 5 metre pen and just before the tap and go, Healy said he was looking forward to seeing what we did here because there had been lots of imaginative plays recently [meaning other teams obviously]. But no. Tap and dive a metre forward. Another pick and dive a half metre etc etc etc and no score

Dire

Strange in a way that Hooper hasn't taken on the lineout role - wasn't he considered something of a Borthwick type student of the lineout?

Quote:

Optimist
Strange in a way that Hooper hasn't taken on the lineout role - wasn't he considered something of a Borthwick type student of the lineout?

OR get a fresh voice. Coaches go stale and lets be fair Hooper was never a coach! If Hooper took over the line out it would be like Paris in 1789 with Bath as the new location!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

One might assume that they were putting their heads together to solve the line out conundrum. Inevitability there was no improvement. I don’t understand why having sorted out the defence they don’t move on to addressing our attacking play. What is the point of an attack coach when we never attack?

Quote:

Bath Hammer
One might assume that they were putting their heads together to solve the line out conundrum. Inevitability there was no improvement. I don’t understand why having sorted out the defence they don’t move on to addressing our attacking play. What is the point of an attack coach when we never attack?

One might also question why we continue to kick without putting on a meaningful chase?

Particularly irritating on Friday was with 7mins to go and Bath losing as usual, Bailey proceeded to put up a pointless high kick from inside their half to Piatau who had been good under the high ball all evening. What on earth was he thinking or more to the point why wasn’t he thinking clearly?

If this is really the coaching plan then those responsible all need to go.

Almost as bad as Wales kicking to the man who hadn't missed a catch all game! Even Jiffy was questioning out loud why the Welsh kept doing it, even after man of the match was announced!

The fault is not the decision to kick, but the direction of the kick. Bailey should have been using the time before he received the ball to determine where best to place it.

That is a skill that should be taught through the kicking coach.

Quote:

FiveSticks
The fault is not the decision to kick, but the direction of the kick. Bailey should have been using the time before he received the ball to determine where best to place it.
That is a skill that should be taught through the kicking coach.

Hold on, so Bailey is supposed to either go against the game plan or follow the plan and kick away from the cover with no specialist winger and no kick chase.
Reality is he should kick it out ......... but he can't as we can't win the line out. He's been told he can't kick from the tee and he gives the ball to Gallagher for the penalties. Seriously, Bailey is NOT the problem.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

I remember a game at the rec against Wasps, where we managed to kick with amazing accuracy to Kurtley Beale, Willie LeRoux and AN other. I remember someone shouting: Can you stop it, they are really quite good!

Quote:

woodpecker
I remember a game at the rec against Wasps, where we managed to kick with amazing accuracy to Kurtley Beale, Willie LeRoux and AN other. I remember someone shouting: Can you stop it, they are really quite good!

The A N Other was Christian Wade. As a plan, it had its flaws...

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

If you are kicking from 10 in this day and age if you put in a kick chase infield it is extremely hard to find grass. The 50:22 was designed to get wingers to drop back to encourage running rugby.

How many times did any international 10 at the weekend in the 6N not end up kicking to a man?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked
If you are kicking from 10 in this day and age if you put in a kick chase infield it is extremely hard to find grass. The 50:22 was designed to get wingers to drop back to encourage running rugby.
How many times did any international 10 at the weekend in the 6N not end up kicking to a man?

The kick chase for the high, hanging box kick also comes with a high risk of yellow card

Quote:

copester
The spine of any team, 2,8,9,10 shape the fortunes of any team, unfortunately we have either payers out of form or out of position in these jerseys. We looked completely void of leadership and direction which is a big worry but most of all as others have said, we look scared to try anything. Cant be much fun for any of the players as well as us.

This captures a number of our problems. An 8 who's not an 8, a 10 who's not played 10 regularly for years. Then outside the 10 we have inexperienced players, talented, but inexperienced. In the backrow we have more inexperience (Underhill excepted). Then the chopping and changing means unfamiliarity of playing with the players around you.

Our best performances this year have come with Lawrence and Hill in the team. Two experienced players who make the right decisions, have good discipline, and bring the players around them in to the game. We need players who do this across the team and squad, we don't have enough of them. Some have said it's a lack of leadership, and whilst I don't disagree, it's also not having the right experience consistently in the right parts of the team to stop the bad decisions and the poor discipline. Can't help this when injuries and international call ups take these players away but over the last several years we've lacked the depth of players who bring these qualities to the squad. I suspect some of the signings that we question were trying to address this, but haven't quite worked out.

'Our best performances this year have come with Lawrence and Hill in the team. Two experienced players'

Ted Hill is 23
Ollie Lawrence is 23

Josh Bayliss is 25
Miles Reid is 24
Tom de Glanville is 23
Will Butt is 23
Max Ojomoh is 22
Gabe Hamer-Webb is 22

Even our young players aren't actually THAT young any more. I guess it's not about how much experience you've got, but how good that experience is.

Quote:

Optimist
'Our best performances this year have come with Lawrence and Hill in the team. Two experienced players'
Ted Hill is 23
Ollie Lawrence is 23

Josh Bayliss is 25
Miles Reid is 24
Tom de Glanville is 23
Will Butt is 23
Max Ojomoh is 22
Gabe Hamer-Webb is 22

Even our young players aren't actually THAT young any more. I guess it's not about how much experience you've got, but how good that experience is.

Pretty sure we could go further and say our only really good performances have come with Hill and Lawrence in the side
in the side?

Quote:

Optimist
'Our best performances this year have come with Lawrence and Hill in the team. Two experienced players'
Ted Hill is 23
Ollie Lawrence is 23

Josh Bayliss is 25
Miles Reid is 24
Tom de Glanville is 23
Will Butt is 23
Max Ojomoh is 22
Gabe Hamer-Webb is 22

Even our young players aren't actually THAT young any more. I guess it's not about how much experience you've got, but how good that experience is.

Indeed the quality of the experience matters a lot, but to compare age vs experience (According to Wikipedia where they have any stats)

Ted Hill is 23 - 93 Worcester appearances (Bath?) 2 England 21 Eng age groups
Ollie Lawrence is 23 - 49 Wuss 12 Bath 10 England 6 Eng age groups

Josh Bayliss is 25 - 94 Bath, 2 Scot, 10 Eng age group
Miles Reid is 24 - 47 Bath
Tom de Glanville is 23 - 46 Bath, 14 Eng age group
Will Butt is 23
Max Ojomoh is 22 - 20 Bath 5 Eng age group
Gabe Hamer-Webb is 22

Of the second group only Josh Bayliss has anywhere near the experience of Ted Hill and there is a gulf between Max O and Ollie L to compare centres.

I think in a few years time (given the right experience) there will be some great players in that second group, but right now that lack of experience is part of the Bath problem.

In you come Shipwrecked !!!!

Very tempting to comment Opti but I might get pinged for repetitious posting by the mods!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked
Very tempting to comment Opti but I might get pinged for repetitious posting by the mods!

I think if that was a rule i'd be long gone!

Quote:

Optimist

Quote:

shipwrecked
Very tempting to comment Opti but I might get pinged for repetitious posting by the mods!

I think if that was a rule i'd be long gone!

It's a rule (from Site Rules)

"3. Repetition of long held opinions rarely moves the conversation on, particularly if this happens frequently, across multiple threads."

I'd hang on to those "compromising photos" if I were you Opti.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Never fun to be on here after another defeat but if there are compromising photos to see I will hang around.
Back to the kicking, my favourite kicks are those short dinks that drop behind the defence but in front of the full back. It pulls the full back or winger forward, having to deal with a bouncing ball so that if the bounce is bad not only do we have a chance of possession but the defence is out of position. Not a difficult kick, just need to see where a covering 9 might be. In my mind the odds of a defensive mistake is higher so a decent roll of the dice if slow ball.

Quote:

B4thB4ck
Never fun to be on here after another defeat but if there are compromising photos to see I will hang around.
Back to the kicking, my favourite kicks are those short dinks that drop behind the defence but in front of the full back. It pulls the full back or winger forward, having to deal with a bouncing ball so that if the bounce is bad not only do we have a chance of possession but the defence is out of position. Not a difficult kick, just need to see where a covering 9 might be. In my mind the odds of a defensive mistake is higher so a decent roll of the dice if slow ball.

That's a favourite kick of Finn Russell directed towards Vakatawa (12) at Racing 92, tailor made for Ollie Lawrence!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Is it my imagination, or has the 50/22 rule had the opposite effect than it was supposed to: Teams now kick more as the benefit of a 50/22, however unlikely it is to get one, out weighs the risks of the oppo running the ball back at you.

The law was meant to encourage more running rugby, but I don't think it has worked.

I think you are right redmix.
I would put the goal line drop out in the same category.
Just another example of unintended consequences when laws are changed.

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:01:16:51:18 by P G Tips.

I don't know about that. I don't think Bath have shown a lot of attacking prowess (nor England) but if I look at Ireland, France, Scotland, Italy, if I look at Sarries, Sale, Quins, Saints, Irish, Falcons I see a whole lot more attacking and running rugby.

With the goal line drop out, I think it is fine if you are held up over the line, but is daft if you have kicked the ball into the in goal area. That should be a 22 still.

Agree Hasta, the space is there to be exploited out wide with the wingers dropping back but it needs a certain skill set. Marcus Smith kicks laterally to Murley for example.

If you kick high and long it will nearly always end up in 11,14 or 15s hands. Guess who does that then.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

It's still kicking though sw, isn't it?

If the idea was to encourage handling I don't think that tactic proves the effect!

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:01:18:08:08 by P G Tips.

Quote:

P G Tips
It's till kicking though sw, isn'tt it?
If the idea was to encourage handling I don't think that tactic proves the effect!

PG

Is it just handling or attacking? You are correct of course, but its variation that scores tries. Lateral kicking is designed to retain possession as opposed to trying to induce a kicking error from the opposition.

I think we see more cross field plays now than before. We need to see if more tries have been scored since it introduction I guess.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Looking deeper into this apparently the aim of the 50:22 was:

"The hope is that with this law, more space will be freed up across the pitch as players drop back to field tactical kicks."

The question might be, if it has achieved that have teams learnt how to exploit that space yet?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:01:22:17:43 by shipwrecked.

Agree with SW about variety, allied of course to vision and decision making.
The key here is where is the space? Where can we isolate defenders? The pitches are the same size but the players have evolved.
The wingers today are down the pitch defending the 50:22 then coming up to face an attacker with ball in hand. I have no problem with going wide off 1st phase then kicking behind the winger who comes up. It is the aimless kicking that annoys me, the kicking that does nothing to stretch the defence.
I think it was Tigers last season where Nadolo (?) struggled to turn in defence and the full back cannot be in 2 places at once. It needs to be done at pace though, slow ball kills everything so we need to be committed at the rucks, the % game has it's time and place but does not create tries.

Crudely looking at tries scored with and without the 50:22 we get the result below, tricky to do the same exercise for the current season as Worcester and Wasps have partial seasons and we are still playing it but fudging the results and projecting the number of tries per team per season high be 55ish. That is down on the previous season by a factor.

Just picking up on the kicking discussion it is noticeable that when 11,14 and 15 kick the ball as opposed to 9 and 10 the ball generally hits grass. A point made by Jonathon Davies in criticism of the Welsh kicking tactics v England. James Lowe (Ire) is a good exponent of this.

Open to comment.

Season 21/22	50:22 In Operation
	
Total Tries	998
Total Teams	13
Average	76.8
	
Season 20/21	50:22 NOT In Operation
	
Total Tries	786
Total Teams	12
Average	65.5

Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

I haven't really noticed the 50:22 either way and I think Rugby was already trending up in terms of tries scored.

It has certainly upped the importance of clinicality in the 22 - it's what makes a team now and why Ireland are the best in the world (and Bath are the worst in the Prem ). Outside the 22 it is still on balance, easier to make ground by kicking and defending than by running.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:02:10:12:47 by The Bear.

Think that only the player who catches the ball in his own 22 should be allowed to kick the ball straight into touch. If a try is scored under an advantage it should be automatically be 7 points. Advantage should be over as soon as the ball crosses the infringement line across the pitch and advantage should be over as soon as a ball is kicked.

I'd get rid of 'advantage' and replace it with an immediate 10-metre (or tryline) offside line as soon as the infringement is given, with no requirement for the player to tap the ball or return the ball to the place where the infringement happened. That would mean continuity of play, lots of defensive chaos, lots of lung-busting passages, and potentially yellow cards for anyone who remains offside (though I'm not sure referees would actually be able to keep up either). But it would also massively disincentivize teams from giving away penalties.

I can't stand the fact that, by stopping play for a penalty, referees are complicit in exactly what the defence wants from them - ie to slow the play down. Either that, or these long passages of meaningless advatage play.

If the attacking team decide against continuing play, and want to kick for goal or touch they'd have to immediately signal it (same as calling a 'mark' for example). Would put a premium on instant decision-making too, rather than everyone standing around having a conference about whether to do this, that or the other.

I don't doubt there is great skill involved but one of the most boring passages of rugby is the kick to the corner and maul. Sometimes there is a boring inevitability about it, sometimes it's bad and it's still painful to watch, quite often there's an infringement and you get to go through it all again...

I wouldn't get rid of the maul (maybe it move it back to a 10m line) but at least advantage makes it slightly less likely. Without advantage 20-60m from the line it's a no-brainer to kick to touch and at least some teams (not Bath or England) try something different with the advantage.

Didn't they use to go straight to the line out if the offence took place in side the 5 meter line