FIND A TEAM. NORTHAMPTON SAINTS v BATH

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:21:09:30:39 by P G Tips.

Think I'd swap Mojo and JJ - let's look to the future.

Is Will Spencer injured at the moment?

I'd like that too Shadders, but not sure that is what JvG will do.
No update on Will Spencer but he is not often started and seldom lasts a full game - not sure what the issue is.

PG

Our fly-half situation is dire. OB seems a shadow of the player he was last season. He is not trusted to kick from hand nor from the tee. He just hasn't kicked on as would have been expected.

Maybe a new coach coming in and immediately making him second choice didn’t help, especially behind somebody who isn’t really a regular fly half

[www.bbc.co.uk] - Bayliss returns from Scotland

Just came here to tap the ‘Pick Ewan Richards’ sign

Any chance this match can be played on paper?

Quote:

FiveSticks
Any chance this match can be played on paper?

We would still get 'paper cuts'!

theredseat

I agree -I am a Richards fan, either at lock or for preference at 6. I am not sure that JvG trusts our youngsters.

4 bright sparks for me last season were Richards, Bailey, Ojomoh, TdG. I was really lookimg forward to seeing them flower this season under an experienced coach. They have instead had to play second fiddle behind (frequently injured) journeymen.

I completely accept that Gallagher has proven reliable so TdG has had a hard job fighting for his place. The others I fear have been poorly used.

PG

Quote:

theredseat
Just came here to tap the ‘Pick Ewan Richards’ sign

100% on board with this. Where do I get my sign?

Quote:

P G Tips
theredseat
I agree -I am a Richards fan, either at lock or for preference at 6. I am not sure that JvG trusts our youngsters.

4 bright sparks for me last season were Richards, Bailey, Ojomoh, TdG. I was really lookimg forward to seeing them flower this season under an experienced coach. They have instead had to play second fiddle behind (frequently injured) journeymen.

I completely accept that Gallagher has proven reliable so TdG has had a hard job fighting for his place. The others I fear have been poorly used.

PG

I think JVG does rate them and certainly sees their value just for points they’ve had players ahead of them who are preferred.

Richards especially JVG says he is the future 6 and is working in his lineout calling. But if that’s his position he doesn’t get in ahead of Hill. Then injuries and stuff make it hard for him. He should definitely be in the team now however.

The 3 backs are a casualty to the system of defence first. Next season I expect to see them flourishing.

Given current availability I don’t have any issue with Hill playing a few games at 8 with Richards at 6. Put Bayliss or Cloete at 7 and you’ve got a decent balance (more so than Reid there personally)

Will it be
4 from 21?
Or 5 from 21?
Yes I'm counting

Quote:

theredseat
Given current availability I don’t have any issue with Hill playing a few games at 8 with Richards at 6. Put Bayliss or Cloete at 7 and you’ve got a decent balance (more so than Reid there personally)

Reid is probably one of our best back row players especially at 6. Hill at 7 Bayliss at 8 for me. Richards for me is a great option at lock.

Would love to see a back 5 of Richards, FLW, Hill, Cloete and Bayliss with Reid and White on the bench against Saints as mobility is key against their wide game.

adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.

Quote:

theredseat
Given current availability I don’t have any issue with Hill playing a few games at 8 with Richards at 6. Put Bayliss or Cloete at 7 and you’ve got a decent balance (more so than Reid there personally)

Quite like that.

We seem to regularly play 3 x 6.5, tbf often due to availability (and dodgy recruitment imho) and the blend of skills doesn't really work.

For me richards as back up 6 to hill feels a no brainer.

He is a lineout option.

He is big , strong and dynamic enough to carry in heavy traffic.

He is quick enough to make good yds in wider channels.

He has leadership skills and actually played well last season in huge adversity aged 20.

I had forgotten we had white tbh and rdc has fallen off radar completely despite playing well last few seasons.

Reid and bayliss have been v good last few seasons. Think they generally deserve a place in the 23.

Team's Up!

Bath Rugby team to play Northampton Saints

15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Gabriel Hamer-Webb, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Matt Gallagher, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Louis Schreuder; 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn ©, 3 D’Arcy Rae, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 GJ van Velze, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Chris Cloete, 8 Miles Reid

Impact players: 16 Tom Doughty, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Johannes Jonker, 19 Josh McNally, 20 Will Spencer, 21 Ben Spencer, 22 Will Butt, 23 Richard de Carpentier

Saints
15 Ramm
14 Collins
13 Proctor
12 Dingwall (c)
11 Freeman
10 Smith
9 James

1 A Waller
2 Smith
3 Hill
4 Salakaia-Loto
5 Moon
6 Scott-Young
7 Graham
8 Augustus

Subs Cruse, E Waller, Petch, Nansen, Matavesi, Braley, Grayson, Hutchinson

No Ted Hill. Not recovered yet, or not risking him? I know a number of players underperformed last week, but as we struggle to find a victory, I wonder how valuable it is to make as many as 9 changes?

Pleased though to see Mojo get a start and Butt on the bench.

PG

Thought Hill might get a spot as part of a 7/1 bench

In my opinion, not nearly as strong a team as we have put out previously but they ended up getting hammered, so perversely, we might just win tomorrow night, I hope so.

Good to see Ojomoh starting, presuming Redpath is playing for Scotland this weekend. Back 3 will be fun

Starting team is alright apart from Schreuder and Van Velze both shouldn’t be near the 23.

Bench is absolutely shocking 6-2 again although Butt can cover everywhere.

Saints by 20+

In all seriousness it may be that FLW is injured but picking four out and out second rows in the 23 (needed because they’re all a bit old or injury prone?)and still not finding space for your best one is very odd.

And the back row balance remains really off for the type of rugby we’re apparently trying to play

All 5 injured last week would have probably played this week but hope FLW , Redpath and Annett absences not due to injury. Would have liked to have seen Hill and Ellis involved. Puzzled by Spencer on bench, thought he had his best game for a long time against Leicester.

I have a bad feeling about this, Saints will be chomping after last week. When I saw the Bath team I had to check that it was actually a Premiership fixture. Thankfully I'll miss it as I'll be at the rec watching the International future...

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Anyone that bothered? I certainly won't get too worked up by Bath again until the required coaching changes are made.

Doesn't matter what the team sheet looks like we can be pretty sure that we will lose.

Yeh, looks a handy side for the Prem Rugby Cup.

Our terrible skills/strategy/form + a bag load of injuries = a thumping.

First time in a long time, I will watch something else, which is a real shame as I’ve always looked forward to Bath on the telly on a Friday night at the end of a long week. But I’ve had enough.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Anyone that bothered? I certainly won't get too worked up by Bath again until the required coaching changes are made.
Doesn't matter what the team sheet looks like we can be pretty sure that we will lose.

Even though you are not bothered and very negative I would like to say I am bothered! Yes, we are having a bad season. Yes, there are question marks about the coaching set up, but it won't stop me following the club and I shall be there at Franklin Gardens tomorrow showing my support and trying to find some positives. Despite the result I saw an improvement last week.

Quote:

Francis Allen

Quote:

OutsideBath
Anyone that bothered? I certainly won't get too worked up by Bath again until the required coaching changes are made.
Doesn't matter what the team sheet looks like we can be pretty sure that we will lose.

Even though you are not bothered and very negative I would like to say I am bothered! Yes, we are having a bad season. Yes, there are question marks about the coaching set up, but it won't stop me following the club and I shall be there at Franklin Gardens tomorrow showing my support and trying to find some positives. Despite the result I saw an improvement last week.

+1, How refreshing!

Saints have got some big guns back, much improved from last week.

Was really hoping that Coetzee could put a run of games together.

What will be interesting is how Bath play. We were building nicely as bunch of rag-tags, albeit that included Hill and Lawrence, but there has been a noticeable deterioration when our teamsheet looked stronger than the opposition. Franklin gardens, with a pretty weak team, massive underdogs, can Bath execute a perfect gameplan.

Quote:

Francis Allen

Quote:

OutsideBath
Anyone that bothered? I certainly won't get too worked up by Bath again until the required coaching changes are made.
Doesn't matter what the team sheet looks like we can be pretty sure that we will lose.

Even though you are not bothered and very negative I would like to say I am bothered! Yes, we are having a bad season. Yes, there are question marks about the coaching set up, but it won't stop me following the club and I shall be there at Franklin Gardens tomorrow showing my support and trying to find some positives. Despite the result I saw an improvement last week.

I commend you for your continued enthusiasm and hope you can find some form of enjoyment tomorrow night.

As do we you.

Quote:

Mike the Taxi
As do we you.

I’ll be watching the golf so I’ll have no trouble finding enjoyment…. 😁

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

theredseat
Just came here to tap the ‘Pick Ewan Richards’ sign

100% on board with this. Where do I get my sign?

Next to the Ewan Staddon caps and Ethan Richards T shirts? (tenuous sarcasm!)

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

Francis Allen

Quote:

OutsideBath
Anyone that bothered? I certainly won't get too worked up by Bath again until the required coaching changes are made.
Doesn't matter what the team sheet looks like we can be pretty sure that we will lose.

Even though you are not bothered and very negative I would like to say I am bothered! Yes, we are having a bad season. Yes, there are question marks about the coaching set up, but it won't stop me following the club and I shall be there at Franklin Gardens tomorrow showing my support and trying to find some positives. Despite the result I saw an improvement last week.

I commend you for your continued enthusiasm and hope you can find some form of enjoyment tomorrow night.

+1

Thanks OB, MTT and WB. It's mostly been a tough watch at the away games this season, could/should have beat Bristol and Saracens, good comeback at Irish, mixed display at Leicester but had a good trip to Newcastle. Always good to visit our opposition and talk to the home fans. Didn't get to Sale or Exeter, stupid K.O time on Xmas eve. So far, big improvement from last season though still got Gloucester to play !

Without Lawrence and Cokanasiga there is no punch in that back line. There's nobody there to hit a hard line and get over the gain line and nobody to make a big defensive hit. It's a back line that needs hard ground, a dry ball and fast service.

The back row lacks a big carrier and the second row has very little mobility.

I predict another hiding.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:09:22:18:40 by Malco.

This feels like an F1 team near the end of the season… No point focussing on the current season any more, time and resources are now best spent focussing on the next one, using what time is left to experiment a little and try not to brake parts you’re carrying over!

Thank goodness we are back in the territory of being able to blame the injury list for performances and results.

Its my comfort blanket- last 3 games we have had excellent squads available and lost all 3.

Worrying when you have zero hope against a team coming off the back of a 60 point hiding.

Our 23 looks very mediocre I think- sure we could have squeezed a few more locks and a few less backs on the bench

We’ve had Tom Ellis the last 4 weeks at Sarries and he’s been excellent. Very surprised he’s not getting game time with you. I’d love Sarries to keep him

Quote:

Shorty Shorty iiv
No point focussing on the current season any more, time and resources are now best spent focussing on the next one

Rinse. Repeat. Ad nauseam. Next year will be the same .... new squad of players... blah, blah, blah ... key signing, Russell, wasn't here for pre-season and was exhausted after WC so didn't really influence anything until January at which point he went off to 6Ns .... new coaches needed time to bed in .... JVG needs more time to bed in his systems ... blah, blah and more blooky blah.

Quote:

The Bard
We’ve had Tom Ellis the last 4 weeks at Sarries and he’s been excellent. Very surprised he’s not getting game time with you. I’d love Sarries to keep him

Yes and Bath are playing 35 year old GJ van Velze in the second row whilst Ellis plays lock for you. Its truly bizarre.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

The Bard
We’ve had Tom Ellis the last 4 weeks at Sarries and he’s been excellent. Very surprised he’s not getting game time with you. I’d love Sarries to keep him

Yes and Bath are playing 35 year old GJ van Velze in the second row whilst Ellis plays lock for you. Its truly bizarre.

Is it really that bizarre? He is slotting into a pack that is stronger and generally more dominant that enables him to raise his game

... and probably playing out of his skin in order to try to secure a permanent contract and extricate himself from the sheer mediocrity of Bath.

Quote:

Optimist
... and probably playing out of his skin in order to try to secure a permanent contract and extricate himself from the sheer mediocrity of Bath.

+1

Only the chaotic and mediocre Bath coaching setup can explain why a player performing well is left out.

I never understood why Bath fan held Ellis in such high regard, for me he was an average player who didn't punch his weight. We shouldn't be surprised that he is now playing better this happens when you join a powerful and dominate team. It happens all the time with the NZ players when they are playing for the all blacks. There are loads of examples- Faletau performances for Wales compared to his performances for Bath, Brad shield's performances for Hurricanes compared to his performances in England, Christian Judge performances for Sarries compared to his performances for Bath and Worcester, Lima Sopoaga performances for NZ compared to performances for Wasps. I could keep giving examples but that would be boring for the reader , my point is you shouldn't be surprised that when a player goes to a different environment/ team they will either flourish or flop.

[quote gaz59] Yes and Bath are playing 35 year old GJ van Velze in the second row whilst Ellis plays lock for you. Its truly bizarre.[/quote]

Is it really that bizarre? He is slotting into a pack that is stronger and generally more dominant that enables him to raise his game[/quote]

The bizarre bit is that Bath have decided to hold onto a 35 yo journeyman rather than a Bath academy graduate who (based on what I have seen) is better.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Yes but he’s played for us when most of our big hitters away, so not in a dominant pack

Quote:

Optimist
... and probably playing out of his skin in order to try to secure a permanent contract and extricate himself from the sheer mediocrity of Bath.

Yep, get that too

There was a very good article in Grauniad about PSG missing the qualities that money can't buy

That got me thinking

Ellis also seems to be enjoying the environment at Sarries (a winning one? A close knit one?) and, reading the headline only and lots of in between the lines, seems to be enjoying it more than at Bath. It could just be that he is now getting game time and wasn’t before. Or it is a culture thing. Or a coaching thing. Or a new environment thing.

To hell with Kevin McLeod and Grand Designs… I’m watching JvG and the BB&W tonight!

Our pack to take them to the cleaners and Mojo and TdG to light up the FG bowling green.

Come on you Bath!

BT sport on watching the pre match build up. Bookies have us 2nd in this one but I'm hoping for an upset rather than just being upset at F/time🤞.
COYB!!

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

I'll be amazed if it isn't Saints by 30+.

TdeG wow!

Regardless of the result in this game it’s crystal clear that we are an appalling team with very little idea. Very depressing.

Attwood is so far off the pace

This could be an aggregate 100 point game given the quality of the defences on show.

What’s happened to Bailey?

Widcombe Garçon

We average a bad error every 5 minutes. Would have to be a cracking side to win games with those odds.

Quote:

Widcombe Boy
What’s happened to Bailey?

Blood cut lip

Quote:

CoochieCoo

Quote:

Widcombe Boy
What’s happened to Bailey?

Blood cut lip

👍

Penalties killing us. Again.

And what were we doing on the floor when we were charging in their 22 with a man advantage? Looked like 4 Bath players trying to pin each other down.

This is there for the taking if we stop giving away daft pens in good (for us) or good (for them) positions.

Discipline, accuracy and confidence is all that is needed!

A poor game between two poor teams.

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

100% line out, no yellow cards, c'mon Bath !!!!!!!!!!!

Most guys are doing ok tonight.

I’d take off Rae and Atwood immediately.

The ref has just killed the game here.Bath are not being allowed to compete in any phase of the game this half and are being pinged off the park, at it is ridiculously harsh.

Bayliss yellow card and Saints 4th try

Ref was okay in the first half generally, but he should put a green shirt on now.

And.... A yellow card.... Annnnd the wheels have fallen off. Same old same old saaaaaaame old

Quote:

dannyf2
And.... A yellow card.... Annnnd the wheels have fallen off. Same old same old saaaaaaame old

Not a lot you can do when the ref isn't allowing you to compete legally.

The ref’s been a bit harsh but we’re so dumb. Stupid decisions and mistakes when in possession and then giving the referee the opportunity to penalise us in defence. Just roll away ffs!

…and now our scrum has gone to pieces.

Another penalty for competing at the breakdown.

Then ko advantage over when clearly there wasn't any whatsoever.
There is no chance when the ref is acting this way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:10:21:42:50 by CoochieCoo.

Playing the ref is and has been a huge part of the game for as long as the game has existed. Change and adapt.

I've got Bath being well beaten on one screen, England u20 well beaten on another.

Having a cracking time.

There's time and there's hope 🤞

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's

Excellent score by Saints, but Ojo, carry in both hands into contact.

Doughty scores from yet another driving maul.
5 tries by the hookers tonight

4 from 21

We make sloppy mistakes and seem to get punished almost everytime.
Couple of handy bounces in favour of Saints, particularly the last try.
First 20 of the second half was the game when we were pinged out of the match, very harshly. You have to be allowed to compete Mr Makepeace.
Saints missed 43 tackles last week, shame they missed so few this!

Enjoyable game as a neutral - both teams prepared to run it. Seemed to be a distinct effort to be more zippy from the breakdown for Bath. But very easy to score against and it always had a sense of the inevitable.

Another 45 points conceded.

Simply poor and yet again discipline costs us. I would welcome relegation and a complete clear out.

Tom Dunn, Bayliss yet agin silly pen after pen. Knock ons and passing to fresh air, poor kicking gifting possession and just can’t do the basics.

Shut the lot down and start again. If I did my job like these boys I would resign and not wait to be fired.

Ultimately it has to be managent that is responsible for this shambles

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Another 45 points conceded.

We’ve been struggling for consistency for years. I think we’ve cracked it now though.

A basket case of@#$%&performance. The most wealthiest club ifyou include Dyson as a sponsor. We have the worst strategy in the league rubbish coaches and who the hell appoints them no one quite knows?

Just watched the game. It is absolutely freakin' maddening supporting Bath. We just handed Saints that match in the first 30 minutes with dumb decisions. We know Saints don't do well against sides that put them under pressure. So we didn't. We just kicked them the ball (badly) and asked them to run it back at us. Which they did. Very well. And, when they were far enough ahead to be under no score board pressure, THEN we decide to play some rugby which necessarily means giving Saints broken field ball to play with. Which they did. Very well.

The sad thing is that we generally completed well in most phases and we could easily have won that game with a better decision making. My worry is that we continue to do this and I don't see anyone, this season or next, who is going to be able to change the pattern and provide that on-field leadership. Sure as hell, Finn Russell won't.

My MotM - Josh Bayliss.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Our forwards looked so depressingly slow in defence even early in the first half. Atters had a few good hits, but if a Saints back was anywhere near his channel he looked a liability, similarly Rae. Beno worked manfully in defence and attack and was the only one always getting over the gainline - he tired quickly in the 2nd half though. GHW has to get more involved.

Some flashes of improvement but not enough.

Just pee'd off with it all now, if I'm being honest. No idea why I'm watching week after week.

Dumb penalties, players walking back during a break, tackling like an U12 winger... Someone needs to grasp this by neck.

I don't think a different coach would reverse this lethargy and I don't think different players would change the lack of preparation. Do these guys spend any time with each other?

Chill

No relegation

Year after year of rugby dysfunction

Being unbundled.

This time next year you’ll be a 6th placed side

There really is nothing but frustration to be had from the last 3 years in particular, and most of what preceded that was, for the most part, pretty mediocre. Weather permitting, last home game of the season I sort of hope the growing apathy of the fans is demonstrated by many opting to just drink by the Swift Half during the game rather than waiting until afterwards. Some sort of public display of dissatisfaction (To put it mildly) seems more than justified. There's no apparent concern for the fact that we keep losing in a style that's dull to watch (6-2 split every week says it all) with so little progress made in the fundamentals of the game. The club's match reports continue to act as if everything in the garden is rosy and whilst JVG obviously offers a different take on things in public to what he no doubt feels, hearing the same things from him week after week frustrates me; it's all so, well, uninspiring. I know some posters dislike any comparisons with football, but there's far greater scrutiny there when teams under-achieve even over half a season. We've been pathetically below the sum of our parts for years yet there's no real local media scrutiny and no acknowledgement from the club that they're a shambles. We continue to fill the ground despite the fact that the tickets would be considered pricy even if you were watching good rugby. I'm sure individually that most players care, but collectively there's no real identity or anything like the intensity needed to be competitive. I hope I'm proved wrong, and will renew my ST again for the 24th year because if I give it up we'll doubtless soon be playing great rugby in a stadium to match, but 5 years ago I was one of a group of 8 ST holders who went to games together, now it's just 2 of us. Cathartic rant over, Yours, Angry of Twerton!
PS Olneybuthchers, thanks for the cheering post and sorry I've not yet really bought into what you're suggesting!

Dorset Boy so funny - if only there were good refs Bath would be in top 4!! I admire your loyalty but you always watch matches with only one eye.

Can't blame the ref, you play the ref.
What a shambles of a season, when we were supposed to be turning things around. Stuck with the wooden spoon.
It starts and ends at the top!

Quote:

WimborneBath
Can't blame the ref, you play the ref.
What a shambles of a season, when we were supposed to be turning things around. Stuck with the wooden spoon.
It starts and ends at the top!

+1

Couldn’t be bothered to watch, but it’s never the refs fault for Bath losing.

JvG and his hopeless coaching team simply have to go along with Tarquin who is responsible for multiple disastrous coaching appointments.

Quote:

Rich.
Dorset Boy so funny - if only there were good refs Bath would be in top 4!! I admire your loyalty but you always watch matches with only one eye.

Bath are perfectly capable of getting thumped when the refs are excellent as most of them are.

Those 20 minutes after HT, the penalty count must have been 8/9 to nil. Neither side was on the wrong side of the ref in the first half. Bath were doing nothing different after the break and yet suddenly were pinged off the park. What changed?
Even the pundits suggested the yellow wasn't even a penalty.

However, we simply aren't good enough in too many areas to win, and there is no longer any belief in being able to win after the last few seasons.

Didn’t watch the game, but sounds like a good advert for renewing our season tickets !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Is it time to start challenging the consistent narrative that Bath are”worse than the sum of their parts”? I hear it a lot. If you scrutinise it though it really only applies to the backs. In the pack Obano and Stuart are decent but no more. Dunn is ultra competitive and undeniably quality but ruins it with lots of stupid pens. Second row I doubt any would get a place in another prem team. And back row Bayliss is good but for him read Dunn comments. Throw into that the fact that as a collective they concede monsterous amounts of stupid penalties and it doesn’t matter who your backs are. Even so, the backs aren’t stellar. Red path is a sublime talent, as is Bailey but who else? De Glanville is lacking defensively, Joseph hasn’t done it for a few seasons now and there’s nothing for anyone to fear on the wings. To be clear I’m not suggesting they are bad players. I just don’t think they warrant the “sum of their parts” analogy as when you break it down it isn’t right. There may be a lot of recognisable names but that doesn’t equal wins.

Fair summary shugs. We need an overhaul of the squad as per malcos post.

I am all for blaming coaches, culture etc but lots of the players just aren't good enough.

It was another performance where it was like frontal lobotomy's had been done on our players.

Talk about dim, stupid mistakes and decisions making.....

Quote:

bathstigg
We have the worst strategy in the league rubbish coaches and who the hell appoints them no one quite knows?

Tarquin and Bruce. Both responsible for the shambles we're currently in.

I watched it after a thoroughly good meal at the Cafe/Restaurant at Iford............

Dunn, Attwood should be dropped for sheer stupidity.

If you concede as many penalties/yellow cards as we do I would suggest it is almost impossible to win.

I think we need to take this group of players and stop blowing smoke up their a***s and get them to play a very simple, very fast game. Anyone conceding a penalty has 10% of their salary deducted and a yellow card, unless its a team one like Bayliss, a weeks wages.

Get them focused purely on basics...........

When I am playing golf very badly instead of hitting a wood or a 3 iron I take out a 6 and just get my confidence back that I can hit a ball. I know its going to take me 3 - 4 shots to get to a green but for a few holes it doesn't matter rather than putting the ball in the trees or out of bounds (the equivalent of a penalty or a yellow card)

We are bottom, we will stay bottom. We need to be planning for the first six games of next season and build a "Millwall" attitude and anyone who is unhappy with that can go.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:11:14:03:39 by CoochieCoo.

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
Anyone conceding a penalty has 10% of their salary deducted and a yellow card, unless its a team one like Bayliss, a weeks wages.

That's not how the world works.

We're awful, and in a total mess because of upper management, but common sense please.

Put most of our players in a decent club and they'll thrive. It's the whole set-up that's at fault, signing players or changing coaches won't and hasn't changed anything. The problems are far more deep rooted than that.

Quote:

Shugs
Even so, the backs aren’t stellar. Redpath is a sublime talent, as is Bailey but who else?

That Ollie Lawrence fella is OK. Joe Cokanasiga can be a handful when fit.

Personally I think the jury is out on whether Bailey is a sublime talent. He remains a good prospect but will he turn into a top quality 10 or not quite live up to his potential similar to Grayson or Mallinder at Saints?

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Think you need 2-3 big ball carriers in the forwards to get you on the front foot. Lose collisions and you lose matches.

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BathMatt53

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Shugs
Even so, the backs aren’t stellar. Redpath is a sublime talent, as is Bailey but who else?

That Ollie Lawrence fella is OK. Joe Cokanasiga can be a handful when fit.

Personally I think the jury is out on whether Bailey is a sublime talent. He remains a good prospect but will he turn into a top quality 10 or not quite live up to his potential similar to Grayson or Mallinder at Saints?

Fair point Matt - Lawrence is top notch. Cockanasiga - not for me. A good winger - yes. But doesn’t do it consistently enough. But for me it’s about the forwards. The backs are good enough in general apart from SH. I know there are injuries but if you look at the Saints game the front row barring Dunn and a few early Obano three yard wins were anonymous and didn’t get parity in the set piece. Second row added nothing but pens conceded and the back row offer no ball carrying or turnover threat. Bayliss has wheels but that should just be a nice add on. Saints weren’t great but were better at everything I’ve mentioned. For me to sink money into Russell is a bit like splashing out on expensive furniture before you’ve fixed the roof.

We can have runners, power houses, line breakers, brick wall defenders and any number of magic wizards, might even have a ref on our side sometimes - but it comes to just wishes if you don't actually have a team to exploit them. And we don't seem to have that "team" thing. It continues to strike me that all other teams we play seem to enjoy and exalt in the pleasure of playing with and for and because of each other. Of playing for their mates, being a team, giving their all. I just don't get that watching the Bath team. No hail mate well done and let's grit this down together, no celebration and pleasure at a team mate's glory. Hardly a smile and yo go! at Bath. Dunn goes over from a 5m maul and scores a rare try. Team effort. No team boosters, no back patting. Few smiles. Just Dunn grimacing and trudging head down back to his mark with a face like he's still in the dentist waiting room. And he was the captain.
I don't think the Bath like each other over much. That's certainly how they play. Doing their own disparate, disconnected things. Sometimes sparking, other times not. Mostly not. Score a few, ship a heap load more.
A dynamic and bonding team culture has got to be high on the rebuild plans this summer. And a leader to deliver and nurture it on field.

That’s a great observation deckchair. It’s just that certain something that makes teams isn’t it. Absolutely no idea what’s causing that for Bath and it’s not an easy fix to introduce an esprit de corps just like that.

Ironically, the best thing that could happen is for us to get relegated.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

I think that’s a good observation, and I’d imagine it has something to do with the fact it can’t have been much fun turning up to work at Bath Rugby these past few years. These guys are only human. It’s very hard to fake enthusiasm and enjoyment and energy and the lack of “good vibes” is probably just another enormous undercurrent that is still playing out after our record-breakingly poor efforts last season.

I don’t know how you rebuild that. Don Macpherson far better placed to have a solution or two. But so far this season, even in defeat, we look incredibly miserable, which must be feeding into the clarity of our thinking, energy levels, willingness to play for each other etc.

All very sad. : (

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joethefanatic
Ironically, the best thing that could happen is for us to get relegated.

Agreed, that’s the only thing that is going to make the club take the coaching setup seriously.

Hope to never see Bath relegated though as I personally have no interest in championship rugby, although in reality that’s the level I’ve been watching from Bath for the last 2 or 3 seasons

Not a good time to be a Bath and England fan. Can’t remember a lower ebb collectively.

Bathonian 80

As I have said on the last match thread I would not want to play rugby the Bath way.

As Opti suggests further up the players should take control and say we want to play fun, exciting, enjoyable rugby.....like LI, Saints, Quins. If you did not enjoy working for a company you would look to try and change things including leaving and getting another job.

Bath Rugby feels so joyless it really can't be much fun to be there. So as players change it or leave.

The penalties and yellow cards we get absolutely kill us and the players who concede them are letting themselves down, their team mates down and the club (supporters) down

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Bath Supporter Jack
Bathonian 80
As I have said on the last match thread I would not want to play rugby the Bath way.

As Opti suggests further up the players should take control and say we want to play fun, exciting, enjoyable rugby.....like LI, Saints, Quins. If you did not enjoy working for a company you would look to try and change things including leaving and getting another job.

Bath Rugby feels so joyless it really can't be much fun to be there. So as players change it or leave.

The penalties and yellow cards we get absolutely kill us and the players who concede them are letting themselves down, their team mates down and the club (supporters) down

I remember last season when we played fun, exciting, enjoyable rugby and the end result was we got thumped.

I'd be glad to get some entertainment but let's not pretend that the likes of Spencer are designed for that kind of game.

As England also learnt today, you've got to earn the right to attack. Picking Smith didn't mask their other shortcomings.

Agree though about the penalties. It's embarrassing. Bath need to play error-free rugby not test the limits of compounding errors...

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Bath Supporter Jack
Bathonian 80
As I have said on the last match thread I would not want to play rugby the Bath way.

As Opti suggests further up the players should take control and say we want to play fun, exciting, enjoyable rugby.....like LI, Saints, Quins. If you did not enjoy working for a company you would look to try and change things including leaving and getting another job.

Bath Rugby feels so joyless it really can't be much fun to be there. So as players change it or leave.

The penalties and yellow cards we get absolutely kill us and the players who concede them are letting themselves down, their team mates down and the club (supporters) down

That's all fine, but suggesting players should have salary reductions if they concede a penalty or lose a week's wages if they're yellow carded is just, frankly, idiotic.

France conceded more penalties than England today. Should they have their wages cut too?

[www.somersetlive.co.uk]

Only bayliss and tdg escape with credit in the bank- seems fair to me.

Most of the others were utterly brainless- highlights the issues yet again at lock (tho missing roux/flw/ewels not ideal)

In the desperate search for positives we lost zero lineouts and scored 3 tries from attacking lineouts.

That is a big plus, we have all gone in hard on charteris so only fair to congratulate him when it goes well.

Negated by saints scoring from attacking lineouts though and obviously bath are always whack a mole and managed to lose 2 of 7 scrums which had looked relatively solid previously.

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Deckchair
We can have runners, power houses, line breakers, brick wall defenders and any number of magic wizards, might even have a ref on our side sometimes - but it comes to just wishes if you don't actually have a team to exploit them. And we don't seem to have that "team" thing. It continues to strike me that all other teams we play seem to enjoy and exalt in the pleasure of playing with and for and because of each other. Of playing for their mates, being a team, giving their all. I just don't get that watching the Bath team. No hail mate well done and let's grit this down together, no celebration and pleasure at a team mate's glory. Hardly a smile and yo go! at Bath. Dunn goes over from a 5m maul and scores a rare try. Team effort. No team boosters, no back patting. Few smiles. Just Dunn grimacing and trudging head down back to his mark with a face like he's still in the dentist waiting room. And he was the captain.
I don't think the Bath like each other over much. That's certainly how they play. Doing their own disparate, disconnected things. Sometimes sparking, other times not. Mostly not. Score a few, ship a heap load more.
A dynamic and bonding team culture has got to be high on the rebuild plans this summer. And a leader to deliver and nurture it on field.

Totally agree.
The sooner this season ends the better.
With the clear out that most expect hopefully the negative elements will be replaced with positive personnel.

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Pulteney

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Deckchair
We can have runners, power houses, line breakers, brick wall defenders and any number of magic wizards, might even have a ref on our side sometimes - but it comes to just wishes if you don't actually have a team to exploit them. And we don't seem to have that "team" thing. It continues to strike me that all other teams we play seem to enjoy and exalt in the pleasure of playing with and for and because of each other. Of playing for their mates, being a team, giving their all. I just don't get that watching the Bath team. No hail mate well done and let's grit this down together, no celebration and pleasure at a team mate's glory. Hardly a smile and yo go! at Bath. Dunn goes over from a 5m maul and scores a rare try. Team effort. No team boosters, no back patting. Few smiles. Just Dunn grimacing and trudging head down back to his mark with a face like he's still in the dentist waiting room. And he was the captain.
I don't think the Bath like each other over much. That's certainly how they play. Doing their own disparate, disconnected things. Sometimes sparking, other times not. Mostly not. Score a few, ship a heap load more.
A dynamic and bonding team culture has got to be high on the rebuild plans this summer. And a leader to deliver and nurture it on field.

Totally agree.
The sooner this season ends the better.
With the clear out that most expect hopefully the negative elements will be replaced with positive personnel.

I agree the season needs to end as it's a waste of time for Bath fans.

However who are these "negative elements" that need replacing? I suggest they are actually the management and coaching staff, but there's no sign of a clear out of them.

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charlieboa
In the desperate search for positives we lost zero lineouts and scored 3 tries from attacking lineouts.
That is a big plus, we have all gone in hard on charteris so only fair to congratulate him when it goes well.

Do we ever steal opposition ball at lineouts? I don't think I've seen it happen for a couple of seasons now.

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bathonian80

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charlieboa
In the desperate search for positives we lost zero lineouts and scored 3 tries from attacking lineouts.
That is a big plus, we have all gone in hard on charteris so only fair to congratulate him when it goes well.

Do we ever steal opposition ball at lineouts? I don't think I've seen it happen for a couple of seasons now.

Steady on, one thing at a time.

We concentrate on defending the maul (v badly) rather than getting jumpers up.

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charlieboa
Steady on, one thing at a time.

We concentrate on defending the maul (v badly) rather than getting jumpers up.

Haha, this is a massive bugbear of mine. We focus on defending the maul and then still concede. Surely someone can figure out it is better odds to compete?

(Going off topic, I am curious what the overall conversion rate is for 5m lineouts. Gotta be way in excess of actual open-field play from 5m out.)

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The Bear

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charlieboa
Steady on, one thing at a time.

We concentrate on defending the maul (v badly) rather than getting jumpers up.

Haha, this is a massive bugbear of mine. We focus on defending the maul and then still concede. Surely someone can figure out it is better odds to compete?

(Going off topic, I am curious what the overall conversion rate is for 5m lineouts. Gotta be way in excess of actual open-field play from 5m out.)

BT often give the stats on this and comparison with try scoring at 5m, 7m and 10m out from lineout. The best times like Glaws seem to be just above 50% at 5m out and from memory around 30% at 7m and 10% at 10m out but no doubt someone can quote more reliably

Don't think there are comparative stats for open play

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gaz59

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The Bear

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charlieboa
Steady on, one thing at a time.

We concentrate on defending the maul (v badly) rather than getting jumpers up.

Haha, this is a massive bugbear of mine. We focus on defending the maul and then still concede. Surely someone can figure out it is better odds to compete?

(Going off topic, I am curious what the overall conversion rate is for 5m lineouts. Gotta be way in excess of actual open-field play from 5m out.)

BT often give the stats on this and comparison with try scoring at 5m, 7m and 10m out from lineout. The best times like Glaws seem to be just above 50% at 5m out and from memory around 30% at 7m and 10% at 10m out but no doubt someone can quote more reliably

Don't think there are comparative stats for open play

Thanks Gaz. Suspect for someone like Flaws a good chunk of that 50% was possibly a penalty leading to another 5m lineout.

Feels like a quick win for rugby would just be pushing the penalty to touch 5m back. Good teams can still score (and 10% is probably still higher than the likelihood from open play) but it's not so skewed towards the maul. Would be a bit more exciting...

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The Bear

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gaz59

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The Bear

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charlieboa
Steady on, one thing at a time.

We concentrate on defending the maul (v badly) rather than getting jumpers up.

Haha, this is a massive bugbear of mine. We focus on defending the maul and then still concede. Surely someone can figure out it is better odds to compete?

(Going off topic, I am curious what the overall conversion rate is for 5m lineouts. Gotta be way in excess of actual open-field play from 5m out.)

BT often give the stats on this and comparison with try scoring at 5m, 7m and 10m out from lineout. The best times like Glaws seem to be just above 50% at 5m out and from memory around 30% at 7m and 10% at 10m out but no doubt someone can quote more reliably

Don't think there are comparative stats for open play

Thanks Gaz. Suspect for someone like Flaws a good chunk of that 50% was possibly a penalty leading to another 5m lineout.

Feels like a quick win for rugby would just be pushing the penalty to touch 5m back. Good teams can still score (and 10% is probably still higher than the likelihood from open play) but it's not so skewed towards the maul. Would be a bit more exciting...

Might be something in that, it's insanely boring seeing the inevitable maul or subsequent penalty from it leading to an action replay.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

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OutsideBath

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Pulteney

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Deckchair
We can have runners, power houses, line breakers, brick wall defenders and any number of magic wizards, might even have a ref on our side sometimes - but it comes to just wishes if you don't actually have a team to exploit them. And we don't seem to have that "team" thing. It continues to strike me that all other teams we play seem to enjoy and exalt in the pleasure of playing with and for and because of each other. Of playing for their mates, being a team, giving their all. I just don't get that watching the Bath team. No hail mate well done and let's grit this down together, no celebration and pleasure at a team mate's glory. Hardly a smile and yo go! at Bath. Dunn goes over from a 5m maul and scores a rare try. Team effort. No team boosters, no back patting. Few smiles. Just Dunn grimacing and trudging head down back to his mark with a face like he's still in the dentist waiting room. And he was the captain.
I don't think the Bath like each other over much. That's certainly how they play. Doing their own disparate, disconnected things. Sometimes sparking, other times not. Mostly not. Score a few, ship a heap load more.
A dynamic and bonding team culture has got to be high on the rebuild plans this summer. And a leader to deliver and nurture it on field.

Totally agree.
The sooner this season ends the better.
With the clear out that most expect hopefully the negative elements will be replaced with positive personnel.

I agree the season needs to end as it's a waste of time for Bath fans.

However who are these "negative elements" that need replacing? I suggest they are actually the management and coaching staff, but there's no sign of a clear out of them.

Fully agree Deckchair, there is something fundamentally wrong with Bath Rugby, beyond the players.

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Pulteney
The sooner this season ends the better.

I think we've all been saying that, at this point in the season, virtually every year. It's a bit demoralising for supporters to permanently want the season over!

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Optimist

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Pulteney
The sooner this season ends the better.

I think we've all been saying that, at this point in the season, virtually every year. It's a bit demoralising for supporters to permanently want the season over!

Agree, does the club management still read this forum !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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Old Bath Tub

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Optimist

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Pulteney
The sooner this season ends the better.

I think we've all been saying that, at this point in the season, virtually every year. It's a bit demoralising for supporters to permanently want the season over!

Agree, does the club management still read this forum !

So we are told, but I doubt they care what fans think.

Is there some sort of stat on say the last ten years of premiership, where you'd get say 12/13 points for first place, 1 point for last (i know we lost 2 teams) i'd like to see how bad Bath really are in relative terms?

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woodpecker
Is there some sort of stat on say the last ten years of premiership, where you'd get say 12/13 points for first place, 1 point for last (i know we lost 2 teams) i'd like to see how bad Bath really are in relative terms?

In the last 10 years of Premiership Rugby, Bath are 8th out of 13 teams in terms of aggregate final table finishes, with Bristol, Gloucester, London Irish, Newcastle, and Worcester (in that order) following them.

In the last 5 years, Bath are 11th out of 13th, with Worcester and Newcastle bringing up the rear.

The above takes into account the seasons where some clubs didn't compete that year. It just averages the positions they did, so should give an accurate view.

Trophy wise in the last ten years, Saracens, Exeter, Northampton, Leicester, Sale, Harlequins, Bristol, Gloucester, London Irish and Worcester have all won top flight silverware.

Wasps, Newcastle, and of course ourselves, haven't.

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bathonian80

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woodpecker
Is there some sort of stat on say the last ten years of premiership, where you'd get say 12/13 points for first place, 1 point for last (i know we lost 2 teams) i'd like to see how bad Bath really are in relative terms?

In the last 10 years of Premiership Rugby, Bath are 8th out of 13 teams in terms of aggregate final table finishes, with Bristol, Gloucester, London Irish, Newcastle, and Worcester (in that order) following them.

In the last 5 years, Bath are 11th out of 13th, with Worcester and Newcastle bringing up the rear.

The above takes into account the seasons where some clubs didn't compete that year. It just averages the positions they did, so should give an accurate view.

Nice work pulling this together!

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bathonian80

Wasps, Newcastle, and of course ourselves, haven't.

In 10 years it surprises me that Wasps have none. Especially with all the exciting seasons and finals they've had.

No surprise though that we don't...

We're including the Prem Rugby Cup as 'top flight silverware ' there.

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hasta
We're including the Prem Rugby Cup as 'top flight silverware ' there.

Yep. Tell the players who win it on Sunday it's not a real trophy.

I will. It isn't.

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hasta
I will. It isn't.

And, yet, we're so bad we can't even win the fake 'top flight' silverware...

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bathonian80

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hasta
We're including the Prem Rugby Cup as 'top flight silverware ' there.

Yep. Tell the players who win it on Sunday it's not a real trophy.

It was a coveted trophy back in the day. Then the powers that be started messing around with the format - made it Prem-only (sound familiar), went to leagues, invited the Welsh teams who then left - meaning it's little more than a youth cup now.

A few years ago I wouldn't count it - same as I don't regard the '08 Challenge Cup win as our last trophy - but our standards have fallen so dramatically in the last decade or so that I'd attend an open-top bus tour for a Prem Cup win.

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hasta
I will. It isn't.

Bizarre

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The Bear

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hasta
I will. It isn't.

And, yet, we're so bad we can't even win the fake 'top flight' silverware...

I love the assumption that the worst team in the league should - as a bare minimum - be capable of winning the worst trophy. I don't think it works like that.

Missing something here surely gents. Its a trophy, its shows a WINNING sequence.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Builds team spirit. No surprise we don't have any.

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Optimist

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The Bear

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hasta
I will. It isn't.

And, yet, we're so bad we can't even win the fake 'top flight' silverware...

I love the assumption that the worst team in the league should - as a bare minimum - be capable of winning the worst trophy. I don't think it works like that.

More a comment that if it is so meaningless (and, I think it kind of is) how ridiculous that we are below even having won a meaningless trophy. There's winning a real trophy, then winning a meaningless trophy and then there's another category of not even getting a winning day out at Twickers or wherever...

(We also haven't been the worst team in the league for those 10 years).

Just a minor correction - for many, many rugby fans Saracens haven’t actually “won” that silverware.

Well they definitely won the Heineken Cups.

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Shugs
Just a minor correction - for many, many rugby fans Saracens haven’t actually “won” that silverware.

Sounds like jealousy to me, time to move on I would say (a few years ago probably). The record books certainly say that they won stuff. Bath most certainly haven't.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

That’s the point though. On a level playing field Bath might have won something

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Shugs
That’s the point though. On a level playing field Bath might have won something

Especially if Farrell had been arrested for physical assault on Anthony Watson.......