CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Spencer: key man
By PG Tips
May 2 2023
Bath’s final Premiership match of the season should be a Coronation Clash in more ways than one. Saturday's 4PM kick off conflicts with the community celebrations which follow the mornings more formal Royal events in Westminster. Saracens will hope it is another step towards their eventual coronation as Premiership Champions for the 6th time in 13 seasons. Their first place is secure and the final round cannot upset the hierarchy of the top 4. Is coronation therefore inevitable, or can Bath disrupt their triumphal procession?
With the semi finals a week later, Saracens will probably want to field their strongest available XXIII, as they did against London Irish. They were in regal form on their last visit to The Rec in October 21, notching 10 tries in a performance of pomp and power. This time they will meet though a very different Bath, evidenced by last October’s meeting at the StoneX. Bath emerged with 2 bonus points, the home side edging a match of 8 tries by a margin of 2 penalties.
At their best Saracens can be majestic in their dominance; their set piece imposing, defence oppressive and tactical kicking imperious. We are all familiar with the ruthless structure of their game. Physical engagement to contain and subdue, kicking to dominate territory and tempo imposing control on the game, building to masterful attack to exert their authority. Key figures up front are Mako Vunipola, Itoje, Isiekwe and Earl. Directing affairs behind them Farrell, Goode and the underrated van Zyl, with the showy splendour coming from Lozowski, Malins and Maitland.
For a decade Saracens took their place at the head of the English Premiership as almost a matter of divine right. Now, after three years without a title (punished, banished, then thwarted) they would give a King’s ransom to claim the crown this year. They have invested well in their academy, placing a premium on character, so if forced through injury or rotation to field a speculative squad, they will still prove a sterling test of Bath’s mettle. In Bullish mood they will expect their usual meticulous preparation to earn them dividends in the last round and knockout stages.
Bath of course, wanting to finish the season on a high will wish to have their say about Saturday’s result. With their own target of European Champions level rugby ( a stated desire of van Graan’s) to push for, they can take heart from wrecking the hopes of their last three opponents. The heroes of those games deserve another vote of confidence, though there may be places for Underhill and Redpath if fit. Sentimentality does not appear to be JvG’s style, but could there be a farewell cameo for Dave Attwood from the bench?
Key man will be Ben Spencer, fulcrum of Bath’s game this season, an ex-Saracen who knows their tricks, strengths and weaknesses. Absent from the squad who pushed the north Londoners all the way in October, he will want to prove that his move to Bath was a shrewd investment. With Finn Russell due to join him in directing matters next season and rumours of a revitalised coaching set up, Bath’s Captain will hope to show signs that 23-24 will start with a bang.
So, what have Bath to play for? Apart from the chance of top- flight European rugby there are local bragging rights with a slim chance of finishing above both Gloucester and Bristol, revenge for last season’s mauling and above all pride. They will also want to say farewell to departing players and coaches in style. If they can reprise the graft and dazzle of their last outing against Quins, Bath can crown their own season with a morale boosting home win.
Come On You Bath!
Possible Teams:
Bath: Obano, Dunn, Stuart, Van Velze, McNally, Hill, Underhill, Reid. Spencer (Capt.), Bailey. McConnochie, Ojomoh, Lawrence, Cokanasiga. Gallagher
Replacements:, Schoeman, Annett, Rae, Lee-Warner, Bayliss. Schreuder, Francis, De Glanville.
Saracens: Mako Vunipola, Dan, Riccioni, Itoje, Tizard, Isiekwe, Earl, Wray. Van Zyl, Farrell (Capt.). Maitland, Tompkins, Lozowski, Malins. Goode.
Replacements: Lewis, Mawi, Judge, Hunter-Hill, Knight. De Hass, Manu Vunipola, Lewington.
CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 08:19
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:09:08:14:19 by P G Tips.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:09:08:14:19 by P G Tips.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 09:38
Good report..........I wonder if the forecast drizzle/rain will have a say?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 09:40
Mmmm.....
When I wrote it (yesterday evening), the forecast was bright until 1900. Now I see it opts for drizzle.
All gone downhill since the Met Office was privatised obviously!😀
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:02:09:49:07 by P G Tips.
When I wrote it (yesterday evening), the forecast was bright until 1900. Now I see it opts for drizzle.
All gone downhill since the Met Office was privatised obviously!😀
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:02:09:49:07 by P G Tips.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 10:05
Quote:P G Tips
All gone downhill since the Met Office was privatised obviously!😀
PG
We would be in massive trouble if drizzle went uphill PG, might well change the Gary Owen from and "up and under" to an "up and up". 😀
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 11:12
I was referring to forecasting sw!
PG
PG
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 11:39
Excellent preview P G.
Twitter and various other SM suggests a strong team will come down. I had thought we might field a team similar to the Saints one as we are perilously thin in a few areas and an injury now in those could seriously derail the team come the SFs. That said there is obviously a lot to said for the benefit of squad cohesion and familiarity something Bath are clearly benefitting from themselves having previously been impacted by so many injuries through the season.
Bath were excellent when you came up to the StoneX early in the season with Lawrence in particular tearing our wide defence to pieces almost for fun. Once bitten, so I expect him to be much more carefully marshalled if he plays this time but that still doesn't mean we'll contain him and focus on him will create opportunities for your other players.
Tbh no injuries, no cards and a good performance is what Sarries need most but I'm honestly relieved that we're not counting on this result. I think you're coming good at the right time and it will be a tough game.
Hopefully neither the weather or a referees call will play a significant factor in the game and we get to see some quality rugby.
Twitter and various other SM suggests a strong team will come down. I had thought we might field a team similar to the Saints one as we are perilously thin in a few areas and an injury now in those could seriously derail the team come the SFs. That said there is obviously a lot to said for the benefit of squad cohesion and familiarity something Bath are clearly benefitting from themselves having previously been impacted by so many injuries through the season.
Bath were excellent when you came up to the StoneX early in the season with Lawrence in particular tearing our wide defence to pieces almost for fun. Once bitten, so I expect him to be much more carefully marshalled if he plays this time but that still doesn't mean we'll contain him and focus on him will create opportunities for your other players.
Tbh no injuries, no cards and a good performance is what Sarries need most but I'm honestly relieved that we're not counting on this result. I think you're coming good at the right time and it will be a tough game.
Hopefully neither the weather or a referees call will play a significant factor in the game and we get to see some quality rugby.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: Sara'sman (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 16:14
Another enjoyable and well written read PG. Thank you. I nip across here most weeks, keen to read your titles, insight and thoughts on your opposition and will miss your articles, though I'm somehow pleased that if you are to hang up (?) your pen then your last preview should involve us. There is a pleasing symmetry in that the last of the similarly excellent previews that once gave an incentive to visit Leicester's site also involved us.
Not optimistic, but then I never am. Just hoping that with holidays or the World Cup to look forward to, your players will agree to 80 minutes of touch rugby.
Thanks again for all you and others do in running and contributing to such an interesting, balanced and generally respectful site.
Not optimistic, but then I never am. Just hoping that with holidays or the World Cup to look forward to, your players will agree to 80 minutes of touch rugby.
Thanks again for all you and others do in running and contributing to such an interesting, balanced and generally respectful site.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: woodpecker (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 16:49
Are you hanging up your pen PG i missed that?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 17:14
Yes Woody, coming to the end of 10 years as scribe.
Hanging up at end May.
PG
Hanging up at end May.
PG
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 17:15
Thank you Sara’sman for those kind words.
PG
PG
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 19:19
I'd add my "voice" as another Sarrie who largely started lurking here as a result of reading the excellent previews. Thanks for the prose P G and all the best in "retirement" 
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: Mr Frivolous (IP Logged)
Date: 02/05/2023 21:08
Indeed an excellent preview to sign off. A heartfelt thank you for a decade of unsurpassed articles. Happy retirement!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 03/05/2023 08:12
Out with a bang PG, now let's hope Bath Rugby can do you proud on the pitch on Saturday. Thanks for all of your excellent articles over the last decade.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: Widcombe boy (IP Logged)
Date: 03/05/2023 08:37
Quote:BathMatt53
Out with a bang PG, now let's hope Bath Rugby can do you proud on the pitch on Saturday. Thanks for all of your excellent articles over the last decade.
Great work over the years PG Big boots to fill!!
Many thanks 🇪🇪
Widcombe Garçon
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: BathIron (IP Logged)
Date: 03/05/2023 09:21
Every week I have looked forward to your match previews - interesting, humorous and always informative! Best wishes to you.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: BarnetBoy (IP Logged)
Date: 03/05/2023 09:35
Another lurking Saracens fan. Just wanted to add that I also find this the most informative and enjoyable site to visit. Thoroughly engaged rugby fans who care about the wider game with lots of really interesting debates. Well done to all the fans who post and long may this site continue.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: Old Bath Tub (IP Logged)
Date: 03/05/2023 10:21
Quote:BathMatt53
Out with a bang PG, now let's hope Bath Rugby can do you proud on the pitch on Saturday. Thanks for all of your excellent articles over the last decade.
+2
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 03/05/2023 13:35
Hope some Bath coaches come on here to thank you PGT, for your advice over the years in selecting the team each week by reading your articles! ;-)
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 03/05/2023 13:39
Quote:B4thB4ck
Hope some Bath coaches come on here to thank you PGT, for your advice over the years in selecting the team each week by reading your articles! ;-)
It was never Hoopers fault after all, he was just PGTs puppet!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: HK890 (IP Logged)
Date: 03/05/2023 21:01
I would love to see GHW given a final game and send off. Plus I do think he is better than Mcconochie which makes the decision for me even harsher.
I know we have such good Backrow depth but I do wonder if Coetzee will be back aswell for this game. In the second half of the season I have been a fan of his short cameo’s.
Probably too much to ask to see Richards at 19 !
I know we have such good Backrow depth but I do wonder if Coetzee will be back aswell for this game. In the second half of the season I have been a fan of his short cameo’s.
Probably too much to ask to see Richards at 19 !
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: Widcombe boy (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 07:46
Quote:HK890
I would love to see GHW given a final game and send off. Plus I do think he is better than Mcconochie which makes the decision for me even harsher.
I know we have such good Backrow depth but I do wonder if Coetzee will be back aswell for this game. In the second half of the season I have been a fan of his short cameo’s.
Probably too much to ask to see Richards at 19 !
As much as I rate Mcconochie I'm really surprised that he has been re-signed over Gabe Hamer Webb.
He looks a real star in the making, whereas RMC is on the twylight years although still quality. I agree with Malco I think he will score a lot of tries at the Rec in a different shirt...
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 08:13
Quote:Widcombe BoyQuote:HK890
I would love to see GHW given a final game and send off. Plus I do think he is better than Mcconochie which makes the decision for me even harsher.
I know we have such good Backrow depth but I do wonder if Coetzee will be back aswell for this game. In the second half of the season I have been a fan of his short cameo’s.
Probably too much to ask to see Richards at 19 !
As much as I rate Mcconochie I'm really surprised that he has been re-signed over Gabe Hamer Webb.
He looks a real star in the making, whereas RMC is on the twylight years although still quality. I agree with Malco I think he will score a lot of tries at the Rec in a different shirt...
Very different types of wingers, tho, which might give us a clue about how JvG and Finn see us playing next year. Perhaps we're going to be trying to go through teams rather than around the outside of them with our wingers running shoulder ball lines through the holes Ollie punches in midfield. Kinda like South Africa, you might think.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 08:35
Who says that GHW wants to stay at Bath? Maybe it wasn't ultimately Bath's choice.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: Widcombe boy (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 08:39
Quote:BathMatt53
Who says that GHW wants to stay at Bath? Maybe it wasn't ultimately Bath's choice.
Hadn’t thought of that!
Widcombe Garçon
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 08:54
I'll bet he could earn better money and have an amazing life replacing Roko at Montauban, for example...I would (but am probably a bit old / slow).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 09:41
Quote:Widcombe BoyQuote:BathMatt53
Who says that GHW wants to stay at Bath? Maybe it wasn't ultimately Bath's choice.
Hadn’t thought of that!
The explanation (somewhere, someone) that he was out of contract, and therefore it made it easier to lose him, than say McConnoghie mid-contract, also made some sense.
Ruaridh at his best was probably out best player for a period. If he can get back to that, then we still have a gem.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 10:11
Perhaps GHW will be the next Woodburn.
Is the old cliche, 'a game for all sizes' finally buried? Interesting that Joe C seems to have lost some bulk and gained some form. Nadolo against us at the Rec only had one trick and it needed to be over a very short distance. Something for another thread I guess.
Is the old cliche, 'a game for all sizes' finally buried? Interesting that Joe C seems to have lost some bulk and gained some form. Nadolo against us at the Rec only had one trick and it needed to be over a very short distance. Something for another thread I guess.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 10:31
Quote:B4thB4ck
Perhaps GHW will be the next Woodburn.
Is the old cliche, 'a game for all sizes' finally buried? Interesting that Joe C seems to have lost some bulk and gained some form. Nadolo against us at the Rec only had one trick and it needed to be over a very short distance. Something for another thread I guess.
Cheslin Kolbe and Ange Capuozzo would probably have a view. Dupont probably would as well.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 10:34
I've been impressed with Joe C's handling on occasions this year (the pick up from Bailey's mishit cross-kick being a highlight) - pretty sure that one more good hit-out against Sarries and he'll be going to RWC.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 10:41
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
Perhaps GHW will be the next Woodburn.
Is the old cliche, 'a game for all sizes' finally buried? Interesting that Joe C seems to have lost some bulk and gained some form. Nadolo against us at the Rec only had one trick and it needed to be over a very short distance. Something for another thread I guess.
Cheslin Kolbe and Ange Capuozzo would probably have a view. Dupont probably would as well.
Plus the other SA winger who's name escapes me.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 10:45
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
Perhaps GHW will be the next Woodburn.
Is the old cliche, 'a game for all sizes' finally buried? Interesting that Joe C seems to have lost some bulk and gained some form. Nadolo against us at the Rec only had one trick and it needed to be over a very short distance. Something for another thread I guess.
Cheslin Kolbe and Ange Capuozzo would probably have a view. Dupont probably would as well.
Arundell has been great to watch so I hope the cliche continues, it just feels as though the top coaches don't quite buy into it.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 10:48
Quote:B4thB4ckQuote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
Perhaps GHW will be the next Woodburn.
Is the old cliche, 'a game for all sizes' finally buried? Interesting that Joe C seems to have lost some bulk and gained some form. Nadolo against us at the Rec only had one trick and it needed to be over a very short distance. Something for another thread I guess.
Cheslin Kolbe and Ange Capuozzo would probably have a view. Dupont probably would as well.
Arundell has been great to watch so I hope the cliche continues, it just feels as though the top coaches don't quite buy into it.
Start that thread BB, its an interesting topic!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 11:09
Quote:B4thB4ck
Arundell has been great to watch so I hope the cliche continues, it just feels as though the top coaches don't quite buy into it.
Bigger than he looks - nearly 100kgs I think (over 15 stone) and about 6ft. Freakishly strong by all accounts.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 12:11
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
Arundell has been great to watch so I hope the cliche continues, it just feels as though the top coaches don't quite buy into it.
Bigger than he looks - nearly 100kgs I think (over 15 stone) and about 6ft. Freakishly strong by all accounts.
Didn't realise he was 6ft, maybe I have been deceived by his style of play, to go around rather than through, look for the space.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: HK890 (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 12:19
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:Widcombe BoyQuote:HK890
I would love to see GHW given a final game and send off. Plus I do think he is better than Mcconochie which makes the decision for me even harsher.
I know we have such good Backrow depth but I do wonder if Coetzee will be back aswell for this game. In the second half of the season I have been a fan of his short cameo’s.
Probably too much to ask to see Richards at 19 !
As much as I rate Mcconochie I'm really surprised that he has been re-signed over Gabe Hamer Webb.
He looks a real star in the making, whereas RMC is on the twylight years although still quality. I agree with Malco I think he will score a lot of tries at the Rec in a different shirt...
Very different types of wingers, tho, which might give us a clue about how JvG and Finn see us playing next year. Perhaps we're going to be trying to go through teams rather than around the outside of them with our wingers running shoulder ball lines through the holes Ollie punches in midfield. Kinda like South Africa, you might think.
Agreed definitely different styles, GHW is not a small winger by any means tho he may not be as tall but he is extremely well built. I would also say his kick-chase is a lot better than RMc which has been a big theme of our gameplan. Remember his big hit against Leinster I think
I have no doubt if both were out of contract GHW would have been extended so it’s an unfortunate situation.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 12:47
Quote:OptimistQuote:Widcombe BoyQuote:BathMatt53
Who says that GHW wants to stay at Bath? Maybe it wasn't ultimately Bath's choice.
Hadn’t thought of that!
The explanation (somewhere, someone) that he was out of contract, and therefore it made it easier to lose him, than say McConnoghie mid-contract, also made some sense.
Ruaridh at his best was probably out best player for a period. If he can get back to that, then we still have a gem.
Also the kick pass is one of Russell's favourite ploys and RMc is superb there
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 04/05/2023 16:01
Quote:HK890
his kick-chase is a lot better than RMc
Given how little GHW has actually played for us, and how good RMc is in this area, I'd have to question that.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:00
Team Up. Starting XV same as Quins.
Head of Rugby Johann van Graan has named an unchanged starting XV for Bath Rugby’s final match of the Gallagher Premiership season against Saracens.
It means the team that began the 45-35 win over Harlequins at Twickenham last time out will take to the field from the start in front of a packed-out Rec.
Gallagher Premiership Player of the Season nominee Ollie Lawrence continues his blossoming partnership in the centre with Max Ojomoh while Bath’s Best Back and Players’ Player of the Season Matt Gallagher is once again joined in the back three by Joe Cokanasiga and Ruaridh McConnochie.
Captain Ben Spencer takes on his old side from scrum-half with Orlando Bailey operating in the 10 jersey.
The pack has consistency and is the same for the fourth match running. The all-England front row of Beno Obano, Tom Dunn and Will Stuart are bolstered by having second row pairing Josh McNally and GJ van Velze behind them.
Best Forward Ted Hill retains the blindside flanker position and links up with jackal-man Chris Cloete and homegrown stalwart Miles Reid in the back row.
There are a couple of changes on the bench. Dave Attwood is in line for his 175th Bath Rugby appearance, and his final as a professional rugby player before retiring, while Jonathan Joseph also returns to the matchday 23.
Bath Rugby: 15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Josh McNally, 5 GJ van Velze, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Chris Cloete, 8 Miles Reid
Impact players: 16 Niall Annett, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Dave Attwood, 20 Josh Bayliss, 21 Max Green, 22 Piers Francis, 23 Jonathan Joseph
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Head of Rugby Johann van Graan has named an unchanged starting XV for Bath Rugby’s final match of the Gallagher Premiership season against Saracens.
It means the team that began the 45-35 win over Harlequins at Twickenham last time out will take to the field from the start in front of a packed-out Rec.
Gallagher Premiership Player of the Season nominee Ollie Lawrence continues his blossoming partnership in the centre with Max Ojomoh while Bath’s Best Back and Players’ Player of the Season Matt Gallagher is once again joined in the back three by Joe Cokanasiga and Ruaridh McConnochie.
Captain Ben Spencer takes on his old side from scrum-half with Orlando Bailey operating in the 10 jersey.
The pack has consistency and is the same for the fourth match running. The all-England front row of Beno Obano, Tom Dunn and Will Stuart are bolstered by having second row pairing Josh McNally and GJ van Velze behind them.
Best Forward Ted Hill retains the blindside flanker position and links up with jackal-man Chris Cloete and homegrown stalwart Miles Reid in the back row.
There are a couple of changes on the bench. Dave Attwood is in line for his 175th Bath Rugby appearance, and his final as a professional rugby player before retiring, while Jonathan Joseph also returns to the matchday 23.
Bath Rugby: 15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Josh McNally, 5 GJ van Velze, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Chris Cloete, 8 Miles Reid
Impact players: 16 Niall Annett, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Dave Attwood, 20 Josh Bayliss, 21 Max Green, 22 Piers Francis, 23 Jonathan Joseph
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:06
Good to see that Dave Attwood will get a chance of a last hurrah from the bench.
D'Arcy Rae & Max Green also named - so I wonder if that implies injuries - hopefully Schreuder is fit for next season.
Underhill & Redpath both still absent- must be carrying knocks. Hope that does not impact their RWC ambitions.
PG
D'Arcy Rae & Max Green also named - so I wonder if that implies injuries - hopefully Schreuder is fit for next season.
Underhill & Redpath both still absent- must be carrying knocks. Hope that does not impact their RWC ambitions.
PG
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:08
Well, let's see whether JJ gives a wistful wave to the crowd at any point - or does his omission from the recent days of the long knives confirm that he is staying?
Relieved to see that the monstrosity of the 6/2 split has been shelved - hopefully forever.
Relieved to see that the monstrosity of the 6/2 split has been shelved - hopefully forever.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: dcsh (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:13
Looks like a second string Sarries team, not that they should be taken lightly, but I think we have a good chance of a 5 point win.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Rawce (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:14
Sarries going easy with their selection? I know there’s no easy when up against Sarries.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:18
Saracens team news
1 Eroni Mawi
2 Ethan Lewis (cc)
3 Christian Judge
4 Alex Wardell
5 Callum Hunter-Hill
6 Nathan Michelow
7 Toby Knight
8 Ollie Stonham
9 Ruben de Haas
10 Manu Vunipola
11 Ben Harris
12 Olly Hartley
13 Josh Hallett
14 Rotimi Segun
15 Elliot Daly (cc)
Replacements:
16 Samson Adejimi
17 Robin Hislop
18 Harvey Beaton
19 Kaden Pearce-Paul
20 Max Eke
21 Charlie Bracken
22 Dom Morris
23 Tobias Elliott
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
1 Eroni Mawi
2 Ethan Lewis (cc)
3 Christian Judge
4 Alex Wardell
5 Callum Hunter-Hill
6 Nathan Michelow
7 Toby Knight
8 Ollie Stonham
9 Ruben de Haas
10 Manu Vunipola
11 Ben Harris
12 Olly Hartley
13 Josh Hallett
14 Rotimi Segun
15 Elliot Daly (cc)
Replacements:
16 Samson Adejimi
17 Robin Hislop
18 Harvey Beaton
19 Kaden Pearce-Paul
20 Max Eke
21 Charlie Bracken
22 Dom Morris
23 Tobias Elliott
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:19
Quote:Rawce
Sarries going easy with their selection? I know there’s no easy when up against Sarries.
Never going to have a better chance!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: A.M 180 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:19
Years of experience teach us never to underestimate any Saracens side...BUT if we're not beating them here, I'd be feeling very flat ahead of next season
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:23
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:Rawce
Sarries going easy with their selection? I know there’s no easy when up against Sarries.
Never going to have a better chance!
Definitely - it's basically Sarries A League team. Weather could potentially be miserable which is a bit of a shame but hopefully end on a high.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:40
Just rushed to SkyBet to get a bet on Bath to win by about 25 points, but no odds currently!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Francis Allen (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:44
I'm disappointed that Saracens have opted for a reserve team. It would have been good to measure our recent success against a Saracens first team. Whilst it makes our outside chance of coming 8th a little easier it is unfair on Bristol and Gloucester. Poor show in my opinion.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Hammer (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:48
I’ve only heard of 3 of the Sarries starting lineup & one of them used to play for us mostly as a replacement. Mind you I’m not as well informed as many on here! On recent form we should win & agree that if we don’t it will be a big anti-climax. Whom in the Sarries lineup should we look out for?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 12:54
Quote:Optimist
Just rushed to SkyBet to get a bet on Bath to win by about 25 points, but no odds currently!
These betting companies are rich for a reason Opti! Nothing on oddschecker or BET365 either.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: 1876-Fez (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 13:32
Quote:Mawi, played for Fiji, often in and around 1st 23. Daly, you know about (coming back from injury), Dom Morris, was always around the starting 23 before injury, Segun much the same (he's got wheels). Manu, has been in and out of 23 for last 3 seasons but really not kicked on. Harris, Knight, Hallett all good youngsters. Be good to see how Charlie Bracken (son of Kyran) goes, only 19 but playing for England U20's.Bath Hammer
I’ve only heard of 3 of the Sarries starting lineup & one of them used to play for us mostly as a replacement. Mind you I’m not as well informed as many on here! On recent form we should win & agree that if we don’t it will be a big anti-climax. Whom in the Sarries lineup should we look out for?
Expecting a Bath win (been playing great in last few games) but hope to see some good stuff from our team.
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Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 13:33
Quote:dcsh
Looks like a second string Sarries team, not that they should be taken lightly, but I think we have a good chance of a 5 point win.
Don’t forget we lost to a second string Glasgow team, so even a win is no better than 50/50.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: HK890 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 13:51
Quote:Bath Hammer
I’ve only heard of 3 of the Sarries starting lineup & one of them used to play for us mostly as a replacement. Mind you I’m not as well informed as many on here! On recent form we should win & agree that if we don’t it will be a big anti-climax. Whom in the Sarries lineup should we look out for?
Mawi has been in great form and will be a good test for Stuart however I should imagine our scrum will be dominant.
Toby Knight an exciting U20 player from last year who’s now found himself into their starting 23 through injuries
Olly Hartley a very exciting runner from Wasps acad and no expect to be a tough battle for Ojomoh
Segun very good on his return and would think he’ll get some success out of RMc
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Ali1969 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 14:00
We have been here before and come a "cropper" however I think we are a completely different animal now and one thing JVG will ensure is that we do not believe we have won this before we have taken the field.
You can guarantee that any Sarries side taking the field will be well coached and driven - their systems are that good that for years it has made no difference who has taken on a shirt they have delivered.
Personally I think we will win but it will be a proper contest the score I am not willing to speculate I will just take a win and a great send off to the departing players.
You can guarantee that any Sarries side taking the field will be well coached and driven - their systems are that good that for years it has made no difference who has taken on a shirt they have delivered.
Personally I think we will win but it will be a proper contest the score I am not willing to speculate I will just take a win and a great send off to the departing players.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: bathonian80 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 14:33
30+ point margin is the absolute minimum really. I know we've come unstuck against B and C teams before but people being way too cautious here.
So we've qualified for the Champions Cup I guess. I would have said a Challenge Cup trophy next year will have done us the world of good, but oh well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:05:14:34:12 by bathonian80.
So we've qualified for the Champions Cup I guess. I would have said a Challenge Cup trophy next year will have done us the world of good, but oh well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:05:14:34:12 by bathonian80.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 14:34
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, if the recent 'revival' means anything at all, then we should be putting 30+ points on that Sarries side, and I'm inclined to think that we will.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 14:34
Snap bathonian!!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 14:57
Frankly .......... I'll take the win in any form. Anything else is a bonus.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 15:08
Quote:shipwrecked
Frankly .......... I'll take the win in any form. Anything else is a bonus.
We would need 5 points and a decent points spread IF we want top 8 I think. Bristol are 7 point favourites vs Gloucester.
Opti, Bath 19 point favourites on Skybet. Sarries are 12/1 for the win.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:05:15:09:27 by BathMatt53.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 15:10
Well Twitter was wrong, shock horror.
Really looking forward to how this team does against a very strong Bath team. Without the red card hard not to think a similar team would have beaten Saints away but I don't expect Baths defence will be anywhere near as generous. Still a great opportunity for us to see some young Sarries players and see how they match up V Bath.
Hopefully it is at least a contest!
Really looking forward to how this team does against a very strong Bath team. Without the red card hard not to think a similar team would have beaten Saints away but I don't expect Baths defence will be anywhere near as generous. Still a great opportunity for us to see some young Sarries players and see how they match up V Bath.
Hopefully it is at least a contest!
Quote:You could well be right but who knows? I have the unlikely Sarries win or a draw with BetfairOptimist
Just rushed to SkyBet to get a bet on Bath to win by about 25 points, but no odds currently!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 15:15
Quote:HK890
Mawi has been in great form and will be a good test for Stuart however I should imagine our scrum will be dominant.
Agree on both points. Tbh Mawi is an XV starter for me now but my view isn't necessarily shared by most Sarries supporters. Segun is a favourite of mine but I'm more intrigued with what Harris (like McConnochie a converted 7s player) makes of Coka on the other wing. Some intriguing match-ups.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 15:21
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
Frankly .......... I'll take the win in any form. Anything else is a bonus.
We would need 5 points and a decent points spread IF we want top 8 I think. Bristol are 7 point favourites vs Gloucester.
Opti, Bath 19 point favourites on Skybet. Sarries are 12/1 for the win.
Ah, I see now, who would have thought this was ever even a possibility!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 15:46
Bris currently -36 points difference, Bath -44 .... and equal on points. Assume points difference is the next factor in final league position? So our only route whereby it's out of anyone else's hands is a BP win plus exceed a Bris BP win by 9 points ....?
Is that right?
Is that right?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: bathonian80 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 16:12
Yes. Unless Gloucester give up, I’ll be amazed if we don’t qualify. Shame as I really would have liked to see us push for a trophy next year.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Ali1969 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 16:17
The team we aspire to be (pretty much Sarries) would dismantle such a side as Sarries have put out. We will have to see how far the journey we have come.
First and foremost we must win and in sport that is never a given, then it comes down to the dismantling of a side and certainly it has been such a long time since Bath were favourites to beat anyone let alone Sarries..
C’mon Bath.
Even stranger C’mon Gloucester.
First and foremost we must win and in sport that is never a given, then it comes down to the dismantling of a side and certainly it has been such a long time since Bath were favourites to beat anyone let alone Sarries..
C’mon Bath.
Even stranger C’mon Gloucester.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: nick holder (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 16:19
yeah, if we and Bristol win , we need to beat Bristol's match points or if we match them we need better points difference. If Glaws win then any Bath win will do
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Kidney Stone (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 16:44
Need to save a big roar for when Atters trundles on, and considering the amount he has played this season to Rae also.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Francis Allen (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 16:50
I still think this is a poor show by Saracens. I understand why they are doing it but nevertheless in my eyes I think they are being disrespectful to the competition and portrays them as arrogant. I have never been in the anti Saracens camp that hate them but this doesn't do their image any good. We only get 10 home league games in the season and many of those are affected by international call ups so sending a reserve side is not appreciated by me.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 17:26
Saracens have earned the right to field whichever team they want to. They've managed their season pretty much immaculately, and have supplied their usual quota to England - if this is their strategy for winning the play-off match, then they are very much entitled to do it as they wish. It's possible it could turn out to the the wrong strategy - but a strategy, it very much is.
It's a wee bit tough on Glos and Bris, and frankly an opportunity and a dose of luck that we don't particularly deserve - unless you subscribe to the theory that we've been uniquely blighted by injuries - in which case you might say that luck evens itself out across a season.
It's a wee bit tough on Glos and Bris, and frankly an opportunity and a dose of luck that we don't particularly deserve - unless you subscribe to the theory that we've been uniquely blighted by injuries - in which case you might say that luck evens itself out across a season.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 17:44
Quote:Optimist
It's a wee bit tough on Glos and Bris, and frankly an opportunity and a dose of luck that we don't particularly deserve .
Can't agree in any way Bristol were title contenders not long ago and Glaws have slid down the snake.
We are now climbing up the ladder having narrowly missed out on several wins. The lads, Dunny, Miles, Ben S, Landy, Gallagher have never given up and we deserve whatever we get.
Bristol and Glaws have thrown away their advantage. I've no sympathy sorry Opti.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 18:01
Just remember we have lost to Sarries second string teams in the past. They have developed such a great win mentality and common playing philosophy that permeates throughout the club. Any Sarries team is a very good team and expects to win
And that is what we need to aspire too
And that is what we need to aspire too
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Malco (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 19:31
Interesting that Joseph is named as 23. He hasn't featured in the squad recently. Another one being given the opportunity to wave goodbye?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 05/05/2023 20:17
Quote:Agree with that, the Sarries players will have plenty of motivation to emulate their more senior club mates.shipwrecked
Frankly .......... I'll take the win in any form. Anything else is a bonus.
Get the result first, don't go wide too soon and then hopefully stretch the points gap in the last quarter.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: TomReagan (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 00:06
Quote:I can understand the disappointment that we won't be seeing Sarries best team but I cannot see how it's arrogant. They might still win (I'm tempted to put a few shillings on them given the odds) but don't need to. Their priority is to protect players who've played a lot of rugby in readiness for 2 huge games that will define their season. I'd have been amazed if they'd not picked the side that they have. (And they probably know that Bath never lose their last home game of the season regardless, even when, like last year v L.I, they definitely deserved to!).Francis Allen
I still think this is a poor show by Saracens. I understand why they are doing it but nevertheless in my eyes I think they are being disrespectful to the competition and portrays them as arrogant. I have never been in the anti Saracens camp that hate them but this doesn't do their image any good. We only get 10 home league games in the season and many of those are affected by international call ups so sending a reserve side is not appreciated by me.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: copester (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 05:49
Quote:Francis Allen
I still think this is a poor show by Saracens. I understand why they are doing it but nevertheless in my eyes I think they are being disrespectful to the competition and portrays them as arrogant. I have never been in the anti Saracens camp that hate them but this doesn't do their image any good. We only get 10 home league games in the season and many of those are affected by international call ups so sending a reserve side is not appreciated by me.
Lets be honest, this has been happening for years. Gloucester have done this last year in the champions cup, I seem to recall Exeter and Sarries before the playoffs previously. Didnt Blackadder send a weakened team to Sarries one year? He almost admitted defeat at the pre game press conference.
Sarries have earned the right over the season to pick whoever they feel will help them succeed.
I still think this game will be closer than some believe.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: BathOtter (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 08:27
I think I'm correct in writing, that if Glaws beat Bristol, and a few other results go our way, we could end up 7th? Points difference needs to go our way, but presuming Tigers beat Quins by roughly 15 points and we win by roughly 15 points, then the PD is very similar, and we'll have the same number of wins.
This is based on my bad maths, and we obviously need a BP win. But, I think 7th could be in reach which, frankly, is remarkable...!
This is based on my bad maths, and we obviously need a BP win. But, I think 7th could be in reach which, frankly, is remarkable...!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: charlieboa (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 09:03
Whilst any sarries team will be well drilled and tough opposition this is a great chance to show a ruthless edge and put them away comfortably.
If we have ambitions of challenging at the upper end of the league in next few seasons we absolutely have to take these kind of chances where you benefit from good luck/timing.
If we have ambitions of challenging at the upper end of the league in next few seasons we absolutely have to take these kind of chances where you benefit from good luck/timing.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Quel Carreleur (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 09:50
Quote:I agree, but they've earned the right to manipulate other teams as much as they want.Francis Allen
I still think this is a poor show by Saracens.
For me personally, my proposal would stop such nonsense - ditch the semi-finals, and go straight to the final at Twickenham, but convert any league points differential into points on the board ahead of kick-off.
So on this season to date, if it were the final today, the final would start with the score-board showing Saracens 9 - 0 Sale.
I do not believe that the side finishing 4th in the table over the season should be able to call themselves the best team.
With fewer matches clashing with internationals, the justification for any knock-out stage to a league structure is gone; and quite honestly, if you're better over the course of a season then if you're forced to prove it again in a one-off match where anything can happen, you deserve an actual, real on-field advantage.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 09:54
Quote:charlieboa
Whilst any sarries team will be well drilled and tough opposition this is a great chance to show a ruthless edge and put them away comfortably.
If we have ambitions of challenging at the upper end of the league in next few seasons we absolutely have to take these kind of chances where you benefit from good luck/timing.
As a team, we don't have that killer instinct yet and we don't currently have the leaders to drive us there. I think that JvGs Year 2 plan is to make us competitive in the Prem and in Big Vase and to develop the young leaders ready to move us to the "winning stuff" level.
Like all developing sides, we make game management mistakes, we lose concentration and we take our foot off the oppos throat. When we collectively stop doing those things, we'll win stuff. I reckon it'll take three years from now.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Quel Carreleur (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 10:00
Quote:Technically possible, yes.BathOtter
I think I'm correct in writing, that if Glaws beat Bristol, and a few other results go our way, we could end up 7th?
If we get the TBP win over Saracens, AND Leicester beat Quins by >7 (with no TBP for Quins) then we'll be equal with Quins. If Bristol take all 5 points from their match with Glos, they could join us on 47.
First decider is the number of wins, and in that scenario all 3 clubs would have 8 wins for the season.
PD is the second decider, in which case Quins are currently -8, Bristol are currently -36 and we are currently -44.
To reach 7th, we need to beat Saracens, and get the TBP. We also need our points difference to be 36 greater than the Quins' PD (by definition, us winning and them losing without a LBP would account for 8 of those). We also need out PD to be 8 better than Bristol's (or for Bristol to not take all 5).
Technically we could also draw on points with Exeter; but they've won 2 more matches, so we can't catch them on the first decider.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 10:35
Is it a poor show? Or is it precisely what is required to win the Premiership?
They could play Itoje in this game then he pulls a hamstring and they lose the final as a result. 'Crazy team management' would be the response.
I've no problem at all with this.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
They could play Itoje in this game then he pulls a hamstring and they lose the final as a result. 'Crazy team management' would be the response.
I've no problem at all with this.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: bathonian80 (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 10:41
Quote:Which Tyler
I do not believe that the side finishing 4th in the table over the season should be able to call themselves the best team.
I think they call themselves champions, not necessary "the best team".
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Quel Carreleur (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 10:53
Quote:technically correct - the very best kind of correct.bathonian80
I think they call themselves champions, not necessary "the best team".
I still don't think they should, though.
For me a league structure is to decide the best team over a period of time, everyone plays each other, home and away, there's no built-in advantage for any 1 team over any other.
A cup structure is knock-out, with luck of the draw, and decides a champion rather than a best team; any pool stages are merely a way to decide who gets to the "proper" stage of the tournament and is seeded accordingly.
The premiership is supposed to be a league structure.
I know I lost that argument 2003, but it's still what I believe, and will continue to prefer.
The above is my proposed compromise.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 10:56
WT, I agree but its nothing to do with merit, it's to do with revenue.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 11:13
A number of interesting points brought up.
The teams who have provided any players to England especially if they regularly made the 23 will have missed them for almost half the club season. In that regard the play-offs are still very valid in balancing out the impact of having some of your better players missing. Having said that I think even if we were to say, go down to 10 clubs and separate club and Country games entirely, I suspect the play-offs would remain as the money they generate is significant. Pretending that it doesn't matter especially at a time like this seems odd.
On that basis and maybe just as recognition of the achievement Silverware and some money for finishing top of the League makes a lot of sense to me. Potentially PRL could even get some extra money for naming rights?
The pointy end of the season will always bring games and their consequences into sharp relief but I'd be staggered if you can find a single team in the League that hasn't in at least a couple of games sent a weakened team or used some other sort of strategy that has impacted other results as a part of managing their season the best they can.
Not sure what the weather is like in Bath but it's bucketing it down in North London so fingers crossed for a gap in the weather for the actual game.
The teams who have provided any players to England especially if they regularly made the 23 will have missed them for almost half the club season. In that regard the play-offs are still very valid in balancing out the impact of having some of your better players missing. Having said that I think even if we were to say, go down to 10 clubs and separate club and Country games entirely, I suspect the play-offs would remain as the money they generate is significant. Pretending that it doesn't matter especially at a time like this seems odd.
On that basis and maybe just as recognition of the achievement Silverware and some money for finishing top of the League makes a lot of sense to me. Potentially PRL could even get some extra money for naming rights?
The pointy end of the season will always bring games and their consequences into sharp relief but I'd be staggered if you can find a single team in the League that hasn't in at least a couple of games sent a weakened team or used some other sort of strategy that has impacted other results as a part of managing their season the best they can.
Not sure what the weather is like in Bath but it's bucketing it down in North London so fingers crossed for a gap in the weather for the actual game.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Hammer (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 14:07
Quote:joethefanatic
Like all developing sides, we make game management mistakes, we lose concentration and we take our foot off the oppos throat. When we collectively stop doing those things, we'll win stuff. I reckon it'll take three years from now.
I don’t see it having to take that long. Certainly to be comparable with Saracens but not to be able to win a title, though I don’t diminish the extent of the task.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: HK890 (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 16:54
Pretty awful Half !
Some decent bits from the forwards but we’ve given then every opportunity. Poor defence all over
Mcconochie really not having a game good Shane with GHW leaving really. Real shame that some of our best players are in the reserves today.
Some decent bits from the forwards but we’ve given then every opportunity. Poor defence all over
Mcconochie really not having a game good Shane with GHW leaving really. Real shame that some of our best players are in the reserves today.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: A.M 180 (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 16:59
You'd like to think experience will tell in this 2nd half, but we've given Sarries no reason to think they can't score at will
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Clarkey3k (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:03
Not enough snap and bite in the first half. I think we are complacent. Need to step it up a few gears. Stop the pick and go and give the ball some air.
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:15
Just heard the cheer from outside Kwikfit, on the London Road!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Anthony (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:18
Frankly with side Bath have picked and considering you beat Quins last week - you should be streets ahead. Just shows strength in depth of young Sarries side.
anthony blake
anthony blake
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Anthony (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:20
If you were playing Sarries first team you would be hammered and ref is on your side
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:24
But we aren't, and we aren't.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Anthony (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:25
What a tremendous try from Vunipola
anthony blake
anthony blake
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:25
The score is, currently, a perfect palindrome, in Bath's favour!!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!futurev
Posted by: Anthony (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:31
Future for Sarries looks much stronger than Bath’s as really second string lteam of youngsters against your full strength first team.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!futurev
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:46
Quote:Anthony
Future for Sarries looks much stronger than Bath’s as really second string lteam of youngsters against your full strength first team.
I hope so too, If this is the future of Sarries then scoring tries from mauls will be a doddle and they will concede 50 points every game!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Anthony (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:54
Idiotic reply . Dairies first team would have beaten Bath by clear 60 points
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: A.M 180 (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:54
That is an almighty final contribution from Dave Attwood!!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Anthony (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:56
No chance in Champions Vup got Bath next season - as completely out of your depth
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: BathIron (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:57
Dairies are a very fine side I'm sure...
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: A.M 180 (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:57
Quote:Take a look at yourselfAnthony
No chance in Champions Vup got Bath next season - as completely out of your depth
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 17:59
Trolls get banned.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Anthony (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 18:00
Big deal
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 18:01
Quote:Anthony
Idiotic reply . Dairies first team would have beaten Bath by clear 60 points
Yes I was wrong, it’s 60 points.
Say what you wish on your board but on here a little respect for your host would be nice.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 18:01
9 tries, Bath finish 8th.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 18:04
Quote:They won't milk much sympathy on here.BathIron
Dairies are a very fine side I'm sure...
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Ali1969 (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 18:06
Quote:Anthony
Frankly with side Bath have picked and considering you beat Quins last week - you should be streets ahead. Just shows strength in depth of young Sarries side.
You are clearly an absolute moron and an embarrassment to whichever team you support.
Your comments and attitude are more attributable to football culture .so I would suggest you return there.
True rugby supporters do not want to hear your ranting and rubbish.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 18:08
All, I suggest ignoring the troll and enjoying the celebration.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Ali1969 (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 18:23
Quote:hasta
All, I suggest ignoring the troll and enjoying the celebration.
Quite right Hasta good advice just sometimes idiots get right under your skin and hit certain bells.
Let us concentrate on how far we have come and how far we may go. Excellent end of the season. Well done boys.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: BathIron (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 18:30
12 tries for Tom Dunn - great return to form!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:06:18:30:48 by BathIron.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:06:18:30:48 by BathIron.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: redmix (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 18:53
That was fun. We seem to have turned from the least able to score tries the the most able. I would rather we didn't concede so many, but if we always score more than our opposition it'll make us one of the most entertaining in the league.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 18:55
Congrats on securing the Champions Cup place.
Very enjoyable first half but then indiscipline saw the game slip away and Baths quality told.
Good luck for next season. It will be interesting to see what Russell makes of the Premiership and vice-versa
Very enjoyable first half but then indiscipline saw the game slip away and Baths quality told.
Good luck for next season. It will be interesting to see what Russell makes of the Premiership and vice-versa
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 19:02
Just FYI
27/06/2008
Quote:Anthony
First of all, this is the first time I have posted, although have been a Bristol fan since birth
27/06/2008
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Susanne (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 19:24
Well - that was a lot of fun! And I didn't get wet. Anyone tell me the last time we left the rRec with 60+points on the board (on the LHS before any smart Alec chooses to misunderstood me!)
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!futurev
Posted by: Malco (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 19:31
Quote:Anthony
Future for Sarries looks much stronger than Bath’s as really second string lteam of youngsters against your full strength first team.
Lots of young talent looking promising for Salaries.
Who says cheats never prosper.
Bath full strength except for Captain and best lock Ewels, our best back row Underhill, our best inside centre Redpath and our best left wing Muir.
Hope you enjoyed your day out.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 19:40
Twickers two weeks ago was fun but this was even more and watching our points difference with Bris jump into our favour was as exciting as all the tries we saw!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 19:40
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:dcsh
Looks like a second string Sarries team, not that they should be taken lightly, but I think we have a good chance of a 5 point win.
Don’t forget we lost to a second string Glasgow team, so even a win is no better than 50/50.
As it turned out, it was ( eventually) a very clear win!
PG
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Blues (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 19:59
Let's spare a thought for our friends down the road.
Where be it Blackbird to?
I know where he be
He be up your wurzel tree
And I be after he
Now I sees he, and he sees I
@#$%&'d if I don't get him
With a girt big stick, I'll knock him down
Blackbird, I'll have thee
La-la-la-la-la-la
La-la-la-la-la-la
'Ow's 'E Fadder?
Alright
Where be it Blackbird to?
I know where he be
He be up your wurzel tree
And I be after he
Now I sees he, and he sees I
@#$%&'d if I don't get him
With a girt big stick, I'll knock him down
Blackbird, I'll have thee
La-la-la-la-la-la
La-la-la-la-la-la
'Ow's 'E Fadder?
Alright
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hooker 72 (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 20:07
Just wanted to give my congratulations from down the road on Cup qualification for next year, and for giving the cheaters the spanking they deserved
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Rokobilly (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 21:12
Lots of fun at the Rec today. Defence was porous and the attack was almost unfair the domination if our pack at times but I'll take 60+ points any day.
Credit to the Sarries lads. Lots of talent there for the future.
My favourite moment came after the final whistle abs before the tannoy announcement of the Bristol result. I was watching JvG when a message came through and his celebrations went up three notches. I knew then we'd got it. JvG looked like a very proud man on the edge of something very exciting. Roll on next season.
Credit to the Sarries lads. Lots of talent there for the future.
My favourite moment came after the final whistle abs before the tannoy announcement of the Bristol result. I was watching JvG when a message came through and his celebrations went up three notches. I knew then we'd got it. JvG looked like a very proud man on the edge of something very exciting. Roll on next season.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: TomReagan (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 21:16
Quote:Cos all rugby fans are gentlemen and football fans are stupid oiks I presume... (That stereotype does annoy me). He's just a wum having a bit of fun cos a few people bit. And Sarries youngsters did look very good at times, especially in the first half. 2nd half our line speed looked a bit sharper. Thought their 12 and 14 were excellent. As for top 8, think there are as many pluses to being in the EuroDisney Cup than the proper one but nice to finish with a good winning streak and some momentum for next season.Ali1969Quote:Anthony
Frankly with side Bath have picked and considering you beat Quins last week - you should be streets ahead. Just shows strength in depth of young Sarries side.
You are clearly an absolute moron and an embarrassment to whichever team you support.
Your comments and attitude are more attributable to football culture .so I would suggest you return there.
True rugby supporters do not want to hear your ranting and rubbish.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Prop Joe (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 22:06
Quote:OldMarovian
Just FYIQuote:Anthony
First of all, this is the first time I have posted, although have been a Bristol fan since birth
27/06/2008
Never heard of him on our site (Bristol), so judging by the 2,000 odd posts would assume he is a Sarries supporter. Obviously a bellend anyway.
Congrats to Bath on Champions Cup qualifying.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Sarriebone (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 22:24
Quote:Prop JoeQuote:OldMarovian
Just FYIQuote:Anthony
First of all, this is the first time I have posted, although have been a Bristol fan since birth
27/06/2008
Never heard of him on our site (Bristol), so judging by the 2,000 odd posts would assume he is a Sarries supporter. Obviously a bellend anyway.
Congrats to Bath on Champions Cup qualifying.
. Never seen him on our site either, so doubt he's one of ours.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 22:50
Quote:Prop Joe
Never heard of him on our site (Bristol), so judging by the 2,000 odd posts would assume he is a Sarries supporter
Why would you assume that? If you look at his early posting history it's all Bristol as is his quote that I copied that states he's been a Bristol supporter since birth. To say his trolling lacked subtlety would be an understatement. Still keeps him off the streets I guess.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 22:59
Just watched the game. That was cr@p. We let Salaries 3rds score 24 points against our first choice side in a game we had to win by a wide margin to get Heineken Cup rugby. And then we had to depend on them basically giving us the last try to win it by enough. Yes, Brizz will be sick but we should be sicker. I said pre-match that we lack the killer instinct and that game confirms it in spades. We will get absolutely stuffed by the top HC clubs we come up against - not because we are bad players but because we are currently a mediocre team with an inconsistent attitude. And being royally beaten by Ireland A and France A is not going to help change that.
Reverse the teams selections. How many do we think Salaries would have scored and conceded?
My MotM - Dave Attwood for *that* tackle and the years that preceded it
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:07:03:15:58 by joethefanatic.
Reverse the teams selections. How many do we think Salaries would have scored and conceded?
My MotM - Dave Attwood for *that* tackle and the years that preceded it
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:07:03:15:58 by joethefanatic.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 06/05/2023 23:07
Quote:joethefanatic
Just watched the game. That was cr@p. We let Salaries 3rds score 24 points against our first choice side in a game we had to win by a wide margin to get Heineken Cup rugby. And then we had to depend on them basically giving us the last try to win it by enough. Yes, Brizz will be sick but we should be sicker. I said pre-match that we lack the killer instinct and that game confirms it in spades. We will get absolutely stuffed by the top HC clubs we come up against - not because we are bad players but because we are currently a mediocre team with an inconsistent attitude. And being royally beaten by Ireland A and France A is not going to help change that.
My MotM - Dave Attwood. We will miss him.
I get where you're coming from Joe but I'm feeling more optimistic. The team that's won four on the trot and shown what they can do, bossed by Finn Russell, has a place in the HC. We might get a couple of hidings but we should be used to that by now! I want to see this lot go up against the best and get better.
Re young Anthony - you're all giving him the oxygen he wants. Don't waste your energy.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Hammer (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 07:09
Quote:joethefanatic
Just watched the game. That was cr@p. We let Salaries 3rds score 24 points against our first choice side in a game we had to win by a wide margin to get Heineken Cup rugby. And then we had to depend on them basically giving us the last try to win it by enough. Yes, Brizz will be sick but we should be sicker. I said pre-match that we lack the killer instinct and that game confirms it in spades. We will get absolutely stuffed by the top HC clubs we come up against - not because we are bad players but because we are currently a mediocre team with an inconsistent attitude. And being royally beaten by Ireland A and France A is not going to help change tha
I think you must have got out of bed the wrong side or experienced too much of the Honolulu sun Joe. Especially after your many reasoned reviews of our genuinely cr#p performances over quite a while! Nevertheless I share your view to a somewhat lesser extent. We were taken apart by their attacking play in the first half. We had no answer & they could score at will. Our answer was an admittedly very effective rolling maul & superior pack but our attacking play was cr#p as was our defence, nothing like good enough against the best teams. However, we looked a different ream in the second half, playing with much more pace & slightly more cohesion, though we can still improve. The new coaches should help that endeavour. We were lucky to qualify, of course, but that was always a bit of a lottery. The fact is that not many of the teams in either the Premiership or Europe are fantastic well oiled machines so I don’t have such a negative view going forward.
Does anyone even glance at those annoying adverts that pop up every time we change pages ???
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:07:07:14:17 by Bath Hammer.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: charlieboa (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 07:40
I was out and about yesterday, hoping to watch today but I can anticipate having some of the views of Joe as if we named a third team I dread to think what would have happened.
Top sides need to be ruthless and consistently so- still feels like we are a long way away mentally which is a worry. Maybe caught up in last day of the season vibes but I guess that's the point- that shouldn't happen.
On the flipside we are now winning games, we look much less of a rabble and I think our recruitment and retention for next season on and off the pitch is smart.
I personally can see us doing pretty well domestically next season- I think top 6 v possible with a bit of good fortune.
I won't be judging us in champions Cup till cap goes back up and get an extra marquee as on a total hiding to nothing
Top sides need to be ruthless and consistently so- still feels like we are a long way away mentally which is a worry. Maybe caught up in last day of the season vibes but I guess that's the point- that shouldn't happen.
On the flipside we are now winning games, we look much less of a rabble and I think our recruitment and retention for next season on and off the pitch is smart.
I personally can see us doing pretty well domestically next season- I think top 6 v possible with a bit of good fortune.
I won't be judging us in champions Cup till cap goes back up and get an extra marquee as on a total hiding to nothing
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: ChippenhamRoman (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 07:41
Quote:Rokobilly
Lots of fun at the Rec today. Defence was porous and the attack was almost unfair the domination if our pack at times but I'll take 60+ points any day.
Credit to the Sarries lads. Lots of talent there for the future.
My favourite moment came after the final whistle abs before the tannoy announcement of the Bristol result. I was watching JvG when a message came through and his celebrations went up three notches. I knew then we'd got it. JvG looked like a very proud man on the edge of something very exciting. Roll on next season.
It astounds me in these days of instant communications that the management and coaching team did not know exactly what was going on. Everyone on TV did.
J
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 07:54
JvG said in his post match interview that he knew exactly what was going on.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Rokobilly (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 08:06
Quote:ChippenhamRomanQuote:Rokobilly
Lots of fun at the Rec today. Defence was porous and the attack was almost unfair the domination if our pack at times but I'll take 60+ points any day.
Credit to the Sarries lads. Lots of talent there for the future.
My favourite moment came after the final whistle abs before the tannoy announcement of the Bristol result. I was watching JvG when a message came through and his celebrations went up three notches. I knew then we'd got it. JvG looked like a very proud man on the edge of something very exciting. Roll on next season.
It astounds me in these days of instant communications that the management and coaching team did not know exactly what was going on. Everyone on TV did.
I am sure the management were following all the way through. What ii saw was the confirmation when Bristol- Glos finished. We were in the dark in the East Stand purely because of the lack of signal / WiFi.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: dr.bath1865 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 08:09
JvG knew throughout the game and was communicating to the players thus. He, like all us, was just waiting for the confirmation of full time at Bristol to come through.
Don’t subscribe to any disappointment in the outcome and score line or performance (bits of a first half aside). Sarries 2nds, yes, but they’re incredibly coached with some great young players who gave us a great game for 40 minutes. Fact is, we won by +32 points and qualified for Europe. Despite being contingent on same late scores at Ashton Gate, if you’d had offered me a +32 point win prior to kick off, I’d have taken it with a big smile.
Consider where we were a year ago. Consider where we were 3 months ago. Remarkable turnaround. And a few soft tackles and poor defensive reads versus some talented youngsters isn’t going to take my mind off what has been a hugely encouraging uptick. JvG always talks about July 11th, the day he kicked off at Farleigh, and I’d say, with scores on the doors, his first 10 months have been a rollercoaster but hugely positive. Can’t wait for next season.
Don’t subscribe to any disappointment in the outcome and score line or performance (bits of a first half aside). Sarries 2nds, yes, but they’re incredibly coached with some great young players who gave us a great game for 40 minutes. Fact is, we won by +32 points and qualified for Europe. Despite being contingent on same late scores at Ashton Gate, if you’d had offered me a +32 point win prior to kick off, I’d have taken it with a big smile.
Consider where we were a year ago. Consider where we were 3 months ago. Remarkable turnaround. And a few soft tackles and poor defensive reads versus some talented youngsters isn’t going to take my mind off what has been a hugely encouraging uptick. JvG always talks about July 11th, the day he kicked off at Farleigh, and I’d say, with scores on the doors, his first 10 months have been a rollercoaster but hugely positive. Can’t wait for next season.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: charlieboa (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 08:24
Agree its broadly been a positive season.
The good thing is jvg really isn't kidding himself about how far we still have to go which is music to my ears.
Also whilst having great empathy for those impacted I am encouraged that he is being pretty ruthless in terms of retention of squad and coaches/support staff. Acknowledgement that 8th still isn't acceptable for a club like bath with the support it has from Bruce and from the fans/city
The good thing is jvg really isn't kidding himself about how far we still have to go which is music to my ears.
Also whilst having great empathy for those impacted I am encouraged that he is being pretty ruthless in terms of retention of squad and coaches/support staff. Acknowledgement that 8th still isn't acceptable for a club like bath with the support it has from Bruce and from the fans/city
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Susanne (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 08:39
The thing that has struck me over the last wins is that we now come back in the second half ready to adjust to what we have faced in the first half and play differently rather than just keeping on with what wasn't working (not that I'm saying it wasn't working yesterday).
In previous years I've wanted to give the half time talk/kick up the proverbial but I think it's OK now - Johan has it in hand
In previous years I've wanted to give the half time talk/kick up the proverbial but I think it's OK now - Johan has it in hand
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 08:46
Well that was probably the most fun I’ve had at the Rec for quite a while and the atmosphere was pretty good as well.
The defensive performance was woeful, but when you score 60+ points it can be glossed over.
Mixed emotions about getting into the champions cup, celebrating it was great, but was hoping instead to see a win in Europe for the first time in ages next season.
The table proves Bath have improved under JvG so hopefully we can build from that.
The defensive performance was woeful, but when you score 60+ points it can be glossed over.
Mixed emotions about getting into the champions cup, celebrating it was great, but was hoping instead to see a win in Europe for the first time in ages next season.
The table proves Bath have improved under JvG so hopefully we can build from that.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Prop Joe (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 09:08
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:Prop Joe
Never heard of him on our site (Bristol), so judging by the 2,000 odd posts would assume he is a Sarries supporter
Why would you assume that? If you look at his early posting history it's all Bristol as is his quote that I copied that states he's been a Bristol supporter since birth. To say his trolling lacked subtlety would be an understatement. Still keeps him off the streets I guess.
Apologies, Old Marovian, just never noticed any of his posts on the Bristol site, think he has a secret crush on your guys though.
Maybe he is just a full time troll with no fixed abode.
Anyway, well done Bath
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Hammer (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 09:16
Quote:Susanne
In previous years I've wanted to give the half time talk/kick up the proverbial but I think it's OK now - Johan has it in hand
It was interesting being a fly on the wall during the interval having watched the match back on BT. JvG come over as a quietly spoken man with out a great deal of charisma but he was extremely animated during the half time talk, not screaming in players’ faces like Arteta, but definitely stating what had to change for the second half which is why they came out as a different team. Strange that that sometimes didn’t happen earlier in the season though.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 09:20
Being in the challenge cup would not guarantee a more successful euro campaign. There would be difficult games wherever you go, it just means avoiding the Leinster juggernaut and the best financed French sides.
The problem is not being in the higher level cup, it is the disparity in finance between the English clubs and euro regions/clubs.
Our success or failure will come down to luck with injuries and squad depth across the season, not just for us but for our opponents. The RWC will likely emphasise that.
Since the playing field is not level, I suggest we just enjoy the ride as best we can, much the same as other English clubs have done.
The problem is not being in the higher level cup, it is the disparity in finance between the English clubs and euro regions/clubs.
Our success or failure will come down to luck with injuries and squad depth across the season, not just for us but for our opponents. The RWC will likely emphasise that.
Since the playing field is not level, I suggest we just enjoy the ride as best we can, much the same as other English clubs have done.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Griff (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 09:35
You can only beat what’s in front of you and we did. Bonus to get into the big cup next year too at the expense of Bris. (Their supporters are not a happy bunch! )
I’m just enjoying leaving the rec with a smile and when Bath win the city is happy. Onwards and upwards to next season.
"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"
I’m just enjoying leaving the rec with a smile and when Bath win the city is happy. Onwards and upwards to next season.
"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 10:05
Quote:B4thB4ck
Being in the challenge cup would not guarantee a more successful euro campaign. There would be difficult games wherever you go, it just means avoiding the Leinster juggernaut and the best financed French sides.
The problem is not being in the higher level cup, it is the disparity in finance between the English clubs and euro regions/clubs.
Our success or failure will come down to luck with injuries and squad depth across the season, not just for us but for our opponents. The RWC will likely emphasise that.
Since the playing field is not level, I suggest we just enjoy the ride as best we can, much the same as other English clubs have done.
+1
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Quel Carreleur (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 10:09
As far as I can see, both teams started that match with defence being an optional extra.
For Sarries, these were young guys looking to gain some experience and confidence at this level; with a result that matters not a jot.
Go out and put in some highlight reel moments and show what you CAN do, whilst not worrying at all about what you might not be able to do.
For Bath, a win without a bonus point was going to be utterly useless; so go out and score tries; better to let Sarries score and get back down the other end than to spend 10 minutes defending our own line. Have confidence that fitness and experience will tell in the last 20-30 minutes.
Second half, we did do more in defence, though a bunch of youngsters with their tails up can always pull something out of the bag; and we did what we needed to do, which was to turn a high scoring game into a win, with as big a margin as we could. Much easier 2nd half tactic if you've already spent 40 minutes brutalising them up front - which we did.
Ultimately though, the table position was out of our hands; and deservedly so. If you're relying on 80 minutes to make amends for the previous 1520 minutes then you've only got yourself to blame.
Beyond that, and IMO only - 8th place is not good enough to "deserve" a place in the Champion's Cup; which itself is unrecognisable to me as being a Champion's Cup anyway - too many teams from too many countries, there just to make up the numbers. We had the right idea when we reduced the numbers and pretty much every team involved had a realistic shot at going deep into the tournie. When half of the teams are purely there to make up the numbers, then it's not a tournie I'm going to give a damn about (unless by some miracle, Bath do go deep).
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:07:10:14:39 by Which Tyler.
For Sarries, these were young guys looking to gain some experience and confidence at this level; with a result that matters not a jot.
Go out and put in some highlight reel moments and show what you CAN do, whilst not worrying at all about what you might not be able to do.
For Bath, a win without a bonus point was going to be utterly useless; so go out and score tries; better to let Sarries score and get back down the other end than to spend 10 minutes defending our own line. Have confidence that fitness and experience will tell in the last 20-30 minutes.
Second half, we did do more in defence, though a bunch of youngsters with their tails up can always pull something out of the bag; and we did what we needed to do, which was to turn a high scoring game into a win, with as big a margin as we could. Much easier 2nd half tactic if you've already spent 40 minutes brutalising them up front - which we did.
Ultimately though, the table position was out of our hands; and deservedly so. If you're relying on 80 minutes to make amends for the previous 1520 minutes then you've only got yourself to blame.
Beyond that, and IMO only - 8th place is not good enough to "deserve" a place in the Champion's Cup; which itself is unrecognisable to me as being a Champion's Cup anyway - too many teams from too many countries, there just to make up the numbers. We had the right idea when we reduced the numbers and pretty much every team involved had a realistic shot at going deep into the tournie. When half of the teams are purely there to make up the numbers, then it's not a tournie I'm going to give a damn about (unless by some miracle, Bath do go deep).
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:07:10:14:39 by Which Tyler.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Hammer (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 10:22
Quote:Which Tyler) 8th place is not good enough to "deserve" a place in the Champion's Cup; which itself is unrecognisable to me as being a Champion's Cup anyway - too many teams from too many countries, there just to make up the numbers. We had the right idea when we reduced the numbers and pretty much every team involved had a realistic shot at going deep into the tournie. When half of the teams are purely there to make up the numbers, then it's not a tournie I'm going to give a damn about (unless by some miracle, Bath do go deep).[/quote
Precisely. So all this talk about not being able to compete with all but the poorest teams is nonsense. Winning the European Challenge Cup, whilst something to adorn our trophy cabinet, would have little meaning.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Malco (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 10:39
I thought Beno Obano was particularly outstanding yesterday.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who winced when he went down with a leg knock. It's no exaggeration to say that he is one more serious knee injury away from the end of his career. The way that he has battled back from the knee injuries he has had to play such dominant rugby, in the set piece and the loose, marks him out as a truly special player. I wouldn't swap him for any other loosehead in the Northern Hemisphere.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who winced when he went down with a leg knock. It's no exaggeration to say that he is one more serious knee injury away from the end of his career. The way that he has battled back from the knee injuries he has had to play such dominant rugby, in the set piece and the loose, marks him out as a truly special player. I wouldn't swap him for any other loosehead in the Northern Hemisphere.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 10:46
I understand this lets win the Challenge cup first point but lets be realistic players like Finn Russell, Thomas du Toit, Will Stuart and Ollie Lawrence will come from a rugby World Cup and will want to play the best rugby available.
JvG had a series of targets yesterday, win, bonus point, points difference deficit. He met all of them.
Bath finished above Gloucester and Bristol so which West Country team has the biggest challenge now?
Finally check the scoreboard, Bath 61 Saracens 29 we won the second half 40-5. Complaining about the quality of the win, the side we beat and how rubbish our tackling was is bonkers the table says it all this morning. We qualified on merit.
As OB says, the table doesn't lie!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
JvG had a series of targets yesterday, win, bonus point, points difference deficit. He met all of them.
Bath finished above Gloucester and Bristol so which West Country team has the biggest challenge now?
Finally check the scoreboard, Bath 61 Saracens 29 we won the second half 40-5. Complaining about the quality of the win, the side we beat and how rubbish our tackling was is bonkers the table says it all this morning. We qualified on merit.
As OB says, the table doesn't lie!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 11:23
Well fwiw I'm in the positive camp. Both for the result/score and for HC qualification
1. Any Sarries team is always highly competitive. They are very incredibly well coached and their playing ethos is drilled through the entire club. I applaud the quality of their young players - skill and positive, attacking play. No matter what the selection beating them and beating them well is an achievement
2. Last year we would have struggled to win and possibly lost
3. With another year's development for the likes of Reid, Ojomoh, Redpath, Bailey etc with the world class of Russell and du Toit along and a serious step up in the coaching team we will be a much stronger outfit next year
4. Add in the boost that [hopefully] the new stadium expectations brings and the whole vibe and confidence around the club will make the end of last season/start of this one feel a very distant one
5. What the squad and coaches will learn from competing against the best will only further move us on and up
1. Any Sarries team is always highly competitive. They are very incredibly well coached and their playing ethos is drilled through the entire club. I applaud the quality of their young players - skill and positive, attacking play. No matter what the selection beating them and beating them well is an achievement
2. Last year we would have struggled to win and possibly lost
3. With another year's development for the likes of Reid, Ojomoh, Redpath, Bailey etc with the world class of Russell and du Toit along and a serious step up in the coaching team we will be a much stronger outfit next year
4. Add in the boost that [hopefully] the new stadium expectations brings and the whole vibe and confidence around the club will make the end of last season/start of this one feel a very distant one
5. What the squad and coaches will learn from competing against the best will only further move us on and up
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: bathonian80 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 11:26
The troll saying Sarries first choice team would have put 60 pts on us shows zero understanding of the psychology of sport.
Bath looked nervous in the first half precisely because it was a 3rd string Sarries team. A team's intensity always goes up when they play against quality opposition. Would have been a close game that could have swung either way if Sarries brought their first choice.
Bath looked nervous in the first half precisely because it was a 3rd string Sarries team. A team's intensity always goes up when they play against quality opposition. Would have been a close game that could have swung either way if Sarries brought their first choice.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: by (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 11:53
Yesterday was a real mental test for us. Firstly, as been noted, we had pressure to win and to win by a lot in order to finish top 8. Secondly, we really, really, *really* struggle being favourites. There are countless games we could pick where we went in expecting a win before humbled. One that sticks in my mind was our trip to Leinster, playing what was essentially an academy side after they'd already knocked out of the comp, then being beaten comfortably. We do lack that ruthlessness needed to compete with the best.
After the first half, I thought history was about to repeat itself. We were making uncharacteristic mistakes, losing the kicking battle, getting on the wrong side of the whistle and conceded some very soft tries. Fortunately something clicked in the second half.
I'm very glad to have gotten the win. Very glad to be in the big cup. And very much looking forward to next season. But it wasn't a great performance, and it does show that we still have a lot of work, mentally, to fix before we're going to win any silverware.
Saracens got some good talent coming through, the 12 (Hartley) looked like a handful, not many players can bump off Lawrence. Thought Daly and Segun played exceptionally well.
Roll on next season!
After the first half, I thought history was about to repeat itself. We were making uncharacteristic mistakes, losing the kicking battle, getting on the wrong side of the whistle and conceded some very soft tries. Fortunately something clicked in the second half.
I'm very glad to have gotten the win. Very glad to be in the big cup. And very much looking forward to next season. But it wasn't a great performance, and it does show that we still have a lot of work, mentally, to fix before we're going to win any silverware.
Saracens got some good talent coming through, the 12 (Hartley) looked like a handful, not many players can bump off Lawrence. Thought Daly and Segun played exceptionally well.
Roll on next season!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Ali1969 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 11:57
I thought it played out pretty much as expected - very few to none of our players or coaches will have seen the Sarries team play before and although they knew they would be very well coached and follow a theme there is still individual unknowns - so the first half I thought we dominated and gave them to be honest 4 easy opportunities which they were good enough to take and plenty for Mark McCall and his team to be happy about although I personally always felt we were more powerful in almost every department and the longer the game went on that would tell.
What I found really pleasing and shows to me how much we have developed is half time and the second half - the players and the coaches had assessed and identified where we were dominate and in the second half the players really put their foot on the throat of Sarries and but for Vunipola's individual try they were scoreless. The second half scoreline of 40 - 5 told how far we have come and I think it is totally disrespectful for anyone to call the Sarries team - those players played their hearts out and put on a good show - plenty of optimism for both camps to be honest.
What I found really pleasing and shows to me how much we have developed is half time and the second half - the players and the coaches had assessed and identified where we were dominate and in the second half the players really put their foot on the throat of Sarries and but for Vunipola's individual try they were scoreless. The second half scoreline of 40 - 5 told how far we have come and I think it is totally disrespectful for anyone to call the Sarries team - those players played their hearts out and put on a good show - plenty of optimism for both camps to be honest.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: charlieboa (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 12:04
I think the mental shift now needs to be from 'being glad we aren't utterly hopeless' to 'how do we get close to sarries over the next 2-3 years'.
I really don't think sarries would have been jittery cos of the pressure of expectation playing bath thirds- they would have been 40 nil up at half time. We need to build that culture of excellence and ruthlessness- it takes time but let's aim high.
I will enjoy the positive progress this season , esp upturn in results over last 2 months- feel incredibly positive about the future. we will have a squad as good as any next season imho, we will have offfield staff as good as any, we are as well backed by Bruce as anyone, jvg will have had 2 pre seasons with the squad. I think we should expect and demand more now.
I love how confident I am that jvg will be utterly underwhelmed (but pleased with progress) by finishing 8th and desperate to push on. Prem champions in the new stadium in 2026- you have to dream, its what sport and being a fan is all about!
I really don't think sarries would have been jittery cos of the pressure of expectation playing bath thirds- they would have been 40 nil up at half time. We need to build that culture of excellence and ruthlessness- it takes time but let's aim high.
I will enjoy the positive progress this season , esp upturn in results over last 2 months- feel incredibly positive about the future. we will have a squad as good as any next season imho, we will have offfield staff as good as any, we are as well backed by Bruce as anyone, jvg will have had 2 pre seasons with the squad. I think we should expect and demand more now.
I love how confident I am that jvg will be utterly underwhelmed (but pleased with progress) by finishing 8th and desperate to push on. Prem champions in the new stadium in 2026- you have to dream, its what sport and being a fan is all about!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bacon&cheeseTurnover (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 13:29
Agreed Malco! I was critical of Beno before his latest comeback. But the fortitude it must have taken to come back stronger after such injuries exemplifies the qualities rugby is all about.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: charlieboa (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 14:07
Always had a slight concern over beno's scrummaging. Seems to look rock solid now with no weaknesses in his game
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: nick holder (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 14:31
22 of our 47 points came in the last 6 league games!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: TG Kesmo (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 16:26
I’m in the what more did you expect from that fixture camp. A win - tick, bonus point - tick, big points difference- tick.
I think the game plan was there - wear them down up front and at set piece then run them out wide. Well that worked didn’t it, I enjoyed the game it didn’t rain some people seem to have lost the plot as far as seeing the positives goes.
Do we still have a long way to go yes but for a step in the right direction and ending the season on a high note that’ll do nicely.
I think the game plan was there - wear them down up front and at set piece then run them out wide. Well that worked didn’t it, I enjoyed the game it didn’t rain some people seem to have lost the plot as far as seeing the positives goes.
Do we still have a long way to go yes but for a step in the right direction and ending the season on a high note that’ll do nicely.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 16:29
Also a lot of of long term success depends on taking the first big chance that comes along even if it feels very early in a team's development
Arguably Bristol had that in 2021 and blew it against Quins
Leicester def took theirs last year and perhaps that goes some way to explain the current position of those two clubs
It feels like JvG and the club's hierarchy are putting in place the structures and people so that we can grab our opportunity when it pops up
Arguably Bristol had that in 2021 and blew it against Quins
Leicester def took theirs last year and perhaps that goes some way to explain the current position of those two clubs
It feels like JvG and the club's hierarchy are putting in place the structures and people so that we can grab our opportunity when it pops up
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 17:23
Honestly I don't think Pat Lam has gotten over that semi final loss. He might never.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 17:29
Is that the same Pat Lamb that was the saviour of rugby not long ago?
Bristol will also be rebuilding next season will a significant exodus as well.
It’s worth noting that Exeter ended up only a few points above us and their pack got pushed around yesterday.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Bristol will also be rebuilding next season will a significant exodus as well.
It’s worth noting that Exeter ended up only a few points above us and their pack got pushed around yesterday.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2023 19:02
Quote:shipwrecked
Is that the same Pat Lamb that was the saviour of rugby not long ago?
Bristol will also be rebuilding next season will a significant exodus as well.
It’s worth noting that Exeter ended up only a few points above us and their pack got pushed around yesterday.
Rumours of salary cap issues (i.e. maybe why Attwood left) but it is interesting they didn't really chase any of the Wasps or Worcester stars and that they don't seem to be using their financial heft nearly as much as they used to.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 01:23
Of the four games we could of, should of won if that had happened we would have 4 x 3 more points which would have put us in third place...................................."just saying"!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: nigewing (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 09:44
Not much mention here of the collapse in 2nd half of season at Castle Grim. They have been toothless & once their line out maul became less potent due to defences sussing it & their pack not winning penalties to kick to the corners they have slid down the table.
Their early season wins were marginal including at the Rec where our one dimensional attack denied us despite laying siege to their line for most of the 2nd half.
It does bring me joy to see their demise as I live too close to the area !!!!!!!
Their early season wins were marginal including at the Rec where our one dimensional attack denied us despite laying siege to their line for most of the 2nd half.
It does bring me joy to see their demise as I live too close to the area !!!!!!!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: TomReagan (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 09:50
At times their backs have looked very good tbf and, rather like us last year, they've been badly hit by injuries. Apologies for not sharing your sense of schadenfreude! (Glad predictive text helped me out there).
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: bathonian80 (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 09:52
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Of the four games we could of, should of won if that had happened we would have 4 x 3 more points which would have put us in third place...................................."just saying"!
These "should have wons" happen for other teams too, and balance each other out. Yes we've had a fair few, but Tigers "should have won" at the Rec for instance.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 10:02
Quote:TomReagan
At times their backs have looked very good tbf and, rather like us last year, they've been badly hit by injuries. Apologies for not sharing your sense of schadenfreude! (Glad predictive text helped me out there).
+1 TR, we have been there (a LOT) and its not a nice feeling.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 10:07
Bathonian you are of course right and never was the saying more true "if my aunt had spherical objects she would be my uncle"!
All I was really trying to say and indeed Tom Dunn said it after the Quinns game at Twickenham we weren't so rubbish at the beginning of the season as it looked........close loss at Sale in the last minute, close loss at Bristol in the last minute.......then all the injuries started and life became very tough.
All I was really trying to say and indeed Tom Dunn said it after the Quinns game at Twickenham we weren't so rubbish at the beginning of the season as it looked........close loss at Sale in the last minute, close loss at Bristol in the last minute.......then all the injuries started and life became very tough.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: charlieboa (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 10:17
Finally got round to watching this.
I am a bit more positive actually than I thought I may be- sarries did v well , got sone class kids and we did a good job of dismantling them second half.
A few highlights for me:
Ted hill is an absurdly good player- absolute machine and fulcrum of all good things we do.
Really enjoyed sarries celebrating a mistake like they have won the world cup being responded to by us winning a scrum pen, putting it in the corner and frogmarching them over for a try. Shame Tompkins and some others weren't playing as they could have added to the cheering of a mistake by slapping mcnallys head and rubbing his hair like they usually do.
After the try van velze had a long chat with the ref on some technical points. That is leadership- don't settle for scoring the try and getting a firm grip on the game, make sure the ref knows what is going on and continue to go got the jugular. Exactly what someone like faz would do.
Cloete is a nuggety, aggressive little b**ger- love it. His dynamism was great.
Beno- outside of the arrival of lawrence and hill I think his comeback has been central to this season becoming a relative success. He is a beast.
Hard to judge against a largely u20 , third string team but we look v powerful and fit. Reminds me fondly of the 80s were we turn the screw on teams in second half unlike last season where we got marmalised often in second half.
Really lovely to see the happiness on faces of the whole squad, staff and fans at the end. We were relentless trying to get 8th and looked like we cared massively. Had a tear in my eye when attwoods bottom lip was going and hoops was giving his son a big hug. Good luck for the future chaps and thank you.
I am a bit more positive actually than I thought I may be- sarries did v well , got sone class kids and we did a good job of dismantling them second half.
A few highlights for me:
Ted hill is an absurdly good player- absolute machine and fulcrum of all good things we do.
Really enjoyed sarries celebrating a mistake like they have won the world cup being responded to by us winning a scrum pen, putting it in the corner and frogmarching them over for a try. Shame Tompkins and some others weren't playing as they could have added to the cheering of a mistake by slapping mcnallys head and rubbing his hair like they usually do.
After the try van velze had a long chat with the ref on some technical points. That is leadership- don't settle for scoring the try and getting a firm grip on the game, make sure the ref knows what is going on and continue to go got the jugular. Exactly what someone like faz would do.
Cloete is a nuggety, aggressive little b**ger- love it. His dynamism was great.
Beno- outside of the arrival of lawrence and hill I think his comeback has been central to this season becoming a relative success. He is a beast.
Hard to judge against a largely u20 , third string team but we look v powerful and fit. Reminds me fondly of the 80s were we turn the screw on teams in second half unlike last season where we got marmalised often in second half.
Really lovely to see the happiness on faces of the whole squad, staff and fans at the end. We were relentless trying to get 8th and looked like we cared massively. Had a tear in my eye when attwoods bottom lip was going and hoops was giving his son a big hug. Good luck for the future chaps and thank you.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 10:23
I am utterly delighted we are in the Top 8 as it means my family tours to fantastic rugby cities Dublin, Toulouse, Clermont and Munster can recommence with now hopefully both my sons and meeting good friend from the Bath Community.
We can go anywhere and have a crack....knowing we will be playing some of the best teams in Europe and not unlike the Sarries 2nd/3rd team players put up a good show!!!
The players certainly wanted it
We can go anywhere and have a crack....knowing we will be playing some of the best teams in Europe and not unlike the Sarries 2nd/3rd team players put up a good show!!!
The players certainly wanted it
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: nigewing (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 10:37
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:TomReagan
At times their backs have looked very good tbf and, rather like us last year, they've been badly hit by injuries. Apologies for not sharing your sense of schadenfreude! (Glad predictive text helped me out there).
+1 TR, we have been there (a LOT) and its not a nice feeling.
I have to live up there !!!!!
I agree with you both but their fans’ smugness & the trolling i got from mates In first half of season ………
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: TomReagan (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 10:56
No worries-I wasn't being pious!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: cb2 (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 14:23
Have England found their centre formation for after the world cup in Hartley and Lawrence? It's a little too early for the novice Hartley to jump in now but looking forward he seems to have power and decent hands.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Old Bath Tub (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 14:54
Just a very short comment from me (because it’s all been said) after watching live yesterday and TV today.
Ben Spencer and Ted Hill !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Ben Spencer and Ted Hill !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 15:08
Quote:Old Bath Tub
Just a very short comment from me (because it’s all been said) after watching live yesterday and TV today.
Ben Spencer and Ted Hill !
These 2 have had so many plaudits this season. Could Hill in particular be on Borthers long list for the RWC?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 16:39
Quote:B4thB4ckQuote:Old Bath Tub
Just a very short comment from me (because it’s all been said) after watching live yesterday and TV today.
Ben Spencer and Ted Hill !
These 2 have had so many plaudits this season. Could Hill in particular be on Borthers long list for the RWC?
He would have to leapfrog quite a few, might not be quick enough and I reckon Tom Pearson meets Borthers requirements better. You never know though.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 16:57
He has experience on his side in comparison to Pearson, so could well be in Steve B's thoughts.
PG
PG
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 17:34
Just checked, Ludlum played every minute of the 6N, at 6.
7 and 8 usually got subbed.
Hard to tell from that who is the next cab at blind side though I guess there are options in the 2nd row to move across too.
Surely Borthers will pick on form, he has no need to keep faith. I suppose I would be surprised to see Hill get into the squad but would he be in the squad if playing for one of the top 4?
7 and 8 usually got subbed.
Hard to tell from that who is the next cab at blind side though I guess there are options in the 2nd row to move across too.
Surely Borthers will pick on form, he has no need to keep faith. I suppose I would be surprised to see Hill get into the squad but would he be in the squad if playing for one of the top 4?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 19:15
I'd be surprised if Hill doesn't make it into at least the larger training squad.
I was thinking about England at the time rather than Bath but I paid very close attention to Hill in one of Worcester's last televised matches and not only was he everywhere but everything he did had a positive impact. He's pretty much the ideal blindside for me. In an England context, the issue might be that Tom Curry plays 6 to accommodate more natural 7s, so that's Hill's competition (particularly when Lawes is out of the picture).
I was thinking about England at the time rather than Bath but I paid very close attention to Hill in one of Worcester's last televised matches and not only was he everywhere but everything he did had a positive impact. He's pretty much the ideal blindside for me. In an England context, the issue might be that Tom Curry plays 6 to accommodate more natural 7s, so that's Hill's competition (particularly when Lawes is out of the picture).
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 19:41
One of the (many) things I like about Hill is he has a decent turn of pace for a big guy. I'd have him in the training squad for sure.
Perason is a very good player. Personally I'd pick Earl ahead of him who provides a tiny bit more utility and skill with a little less raw physicality. Sacrilege I know but I wouldn't take J Willis. Borthwick is early on in this project and giving game time to players who won't be part of the equation come next season seems silly to me. Ofc I understand the argument that winning is most important but I don't think Willis or any player going abroad is significantly better than the "home" options to merit wasting 6+? caps on.
I think I'd also play alternatives to Lawes up until the game before the crunch ones (QF hopefully) he's too fragile to be starting all the games and unless we just stick with Ludlam we need to see other options.
Right now I'd say bench spots (possibly more) up for grab are LH, Hooker, TH, 9 and utility back. More worryingly in the starting team 8 and 12 probably still not settled. That's a pretty big list. You could add in 10 but with Evans out of the picture I wonder if Borthwick will go with just Farrell and Ford rather than fudge it by putting Farrell down as a centre and taking Smith too?
Perason is a very good player. Personally I'd pick Earl ahead of him who provides a tiny bit more utility and skill with a little less raw physicality. Sacrilege I know but I wouldn't take J Willis. Borthwick is early on in this project and giving game time to players who won't be part of the equation come next season seems silly to me. Ofc I understand the argument that winning is most important but I don't think Willis or any player going abroad is significantly better than the "home" options to merit wasting 6+? caps on.
I think I'd also play alternatives to Lawes up until the game before the crunch ones (QF hopefully) he's too fragile to be starting all the games and unless we just stick with Ludlam we need to see other options.
Right now I'd say bench spots (possibly more) up for grab are LH, Hooker, TH, 9 and utility back. More worryingly in the starting team 8 and 12 probably still not settled. That's a pretty big list. You could add in 10 but with Evans out of the picture I wonder if Borthwick will go with just Farrell and Ford rather than fudge it by putting Farrell down as a centre and taking Smith too?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 21:16
It looks like Wigglesworth will be leading the attack so I'm not expecting Quins/Smith style exuberance. Can still see Smith going on the pretence of Farrell being used at 12, but in reality Farrell's at 10 isn't he? I'm ok with that for the WC.
I'll keep banging the drum for a Kelly/Lawrence midfield.
I'll keep banging the drum for a Kelly/Lawrence midfield.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2023 23:05
Quote:JK7
It looks like Wigglesworth will be leading the attack so I'm not expecting Quins/Smith style exuberance. Can still see Smith going on the pretence of Farrell being used at 12, but in reality Farrell's at 10 isn't he? I'm ok with that for the WC.
I'll keep banging the drum for a Kelly/Lawrence midfield.
I think Ford will be the starting 10 for England at the RWC and I don't think Smith will be in the squad. Ford has the more rounded game and the tactical brain that Faz sometimes lacks. I think the real trap for England will be the temptation to shoehorn Faz in at 12 rather than regard him as the (high quality) back up 10. If England can be tempted into actually picking a 12s at 12 and 13s at 13, they've got a chance to go a long way.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Hammer (IP Logged)
Date: 09/05/2023 07:22
Quote:nigewing
Not much mention here of the collapse in 2nd half of season at Castle Grim. They have been toothless & once their line out maul became less potent due to defences sussing it & their pack not winning penalties to kick to the corners they have slid down the table.
Their early season wins were marginal including at the Rec where our one dimensional attack denied us despite laying siege to their line for most of the 2nd half.
It does bring me joy to see their demise as I live too close to the area !!!!!!!
Maybe but it’s important for the game that Premiership rugby survives up there.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 09/05/2023 08:25
Quote:shipwrecked
He would have to leapfrog quite a few, might not be quick enough and I reckon Tom Pearson meets Borthers requirements better. You never know though.
I think that Ted Hill is very quick for a 6...
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 09/05/2023 09:41
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
He would have to leapfrog quite a few, might not be quick enough and I reckon Tom Pearson meets Borthers requirements better. You never know though.
I think that Ted Hill is very quick for a 6...
Might have got that wrong then was it Cloete perhaps who was found wanting in the chase for Manu Vunipola's try?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 09/05/2023 09:50
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
He would have to leapfrog quite a few, might not be quick enough and I reckon Tom Pearson meets Borthers requirements better. You never know though.
I think that Ted Hill is very quick for a 6...
Might have got that wrong then was it Cloete perhaps who was found wanting in the chase for Manu Vunipola's try?
Yes it was Cloete, but actually he did pretty well and only just missed the tap tackle at the end. It was Reid (and Gallagher) that were left grasping thin air.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: dr.bath1865 (IP Logged)
Date: 09/05/2023 10:11
Very evident on the weekend how quick and powerful Cloete is over short distances. A couple of times he carried into contact either from a pick-and-go or one-out and it was noticeable how he is able to stay very low and explodes across the ground, making himself very hard to stop.
His form has been excellent of late, largely mirroring our ability to get a bit on the front foot in defence and attack. A product of our dominance, but likely a catalyst, too.
I look forward to seeing him riding openside on an even more dominant pack next season.
His form has been excellent of late, largely mirroring our ability to get a bit on the front foot in defence and attack. A product of our dominance, but likely a catalyst, too.
I look forward to seeing him riding openside on an even more dominant pack next season.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Ali1969 (IP Logged)
Date: 10/05/2023 09:25
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
He would have to leapfrog quite a few, might not be quick enough and I reckon Tom Pearson meets Borthers requirements better. You never know though.
I think that Ted Hill is very quick for a 6...
Might have got that wrong then was it Cloete perhaps who was found wanting in the chase for Manu Vunipola's try?
Yes it was Cloete, but actually he did pretty well and only just missed the tap tackle at the end. It was Reid (and Gallagher) that were left grasping thin air.
I thought it was Reid and Bailey who missed the initial tackles which I expect they will get roasted for it as Vunipola was basically stationary and those type of errors need to be irradicated for next season. Cloete had a glancing hand off but he was not in a realistic position to make the tackle and chased back valiantly and Gallagher was in the that impossible position of being flat footed trying to cover blind and open options.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Jim H (IP Logged)
Date: 10/05/2023 12:38
Quote:The Bear
Rumours of salary cap issues (i.e. maybe why Attwood left) but it is interesting they didn't really chase any of the Wasps or Worcester stars and that they don't seem to be using their financial heft nearly as much as they used to.
Wasn't a rumor, the cut off point for not activating a 1 year extension was missed in 6 players contracts. As such we had way less budget available than planned. So we had to let players go that we might have wanted to keep, keep players we didn't want and so could only offer DA a 1 year deal rather than 2 (as Bath offered). The reduced cap and 1 marquee (excluded player) has also meant we're a lot weaker next season as well....
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 10/05/2023 13:03
Quote:joethefanatic
I think Ford will be the starting 10 for England at the RWC and I don't think Smith will be in the squad. Ford has the more rounded game and the tactical brain that Faz sometimes lacks. I think the real trap for England will be the temptation to shoehorn Faz in at 12 rather than regard him as the (high quality) back up 10. If England can be tempted into actually picking a 12s at 12 and 13s at 13, they've got a chance to go a long way.
Completely agree with this.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: dr.bath1865 (IP Logged)
Date: 10/05/2023 16:09
Agree about Ford, too. He could win Sale a Prem title in the next few weeks and then I think he'd be absolutely nailed on, especially since he's had a shorter season having come back from injury.
I agree with joe that it's time to pick players in the right shirts – this has to include Lawrence, who I think is being misused by Eng. Personally, I see him as a useful 12 but a potentially world-class 13.
The obsession with trying to make him a Manu Part Deux is, frankly, ridiculous as I think they're very different players. In the 6Ns, Lawrence at 12 was thrown time after time into brick walls and whilst he's explosive, he gets chopped quickly and doesn't carry many people into contact – his threat is in the wider channels where he can use his pace and footwork. So if England wants to get the best out of him, they need him at 13. At 12? Someone else. Manu if fit, Kelly if not, but not having a strong option at 12 shouldn't mean blunting your most dangerous 13.
I'd MUCH rather 10 Ford 12 Manu ideally or Farrell 13 Lawrence than 10 Ford 12 Lawrence 13 A N Other.
I agree with joe that it's time to pick players in the right shirts – this has to include Lawrence, who I think is being misused by Eng. Personally, I see him as a useful 12 but a potentially world-class 13.
The obsession with trying to make him a Manu Part Deux is, frankly, ridiculous as I think they're very different players. In the 6Ns, Lawrence at 12 was thrown time after time into brick walls and whilst he's explosive, he gets chopped quickly and doesn't carry many people into contact – his threat is in the wider channels where he can use his pace and footwork. So if England wants to get the best out of him, they need him at 13. At 12? Someone else. Manu if fit, Kelly if not, but not having a strong option at 12 shouldn't mean blunting your most dangerous 13.
I'd MUCH rather 10 Ford 12 Manu ideally or Farrell 13 Lawrence than 10 Ford 12 Lawrence 13 A N Other.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 10/05/2023 18:44
So in a nutshell drop Smith and Farrell!
Bit extreme but I’m not totally against it but only if we had a fully functional pack and pair of centres.
The inclusion of Wigglesworth and Harrison implies that they will select those they know best so Tigers or ex Tigers are in pole position.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Bit extreme but I’m not totally against it but only if we had a fully functional pack and pair of centres.
The inclusion of Wigglesworth and Harrison implies that they will select those they know best so Tigers or ex Tigers are in pole position.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: bathonian80 (IP Logged)
Date: 10/05/2023 19:03
Give it a few months and I think people will be begging to have Eddie back. I'm usually pretty optimistic about the national team, but I think Borthwick will be a disaster.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 10/05/2023 20:32
Quote:bathonian80
Give it a few months and I think people will be begging to have Eddie back. I'm usually pretty optimistic about the national team, but I think Borthwick will be a disaster.
I think Borthwick is smarter than that but I don't think this overall will be a successful reign and certainly not a successful world cup.
I know he had to use the 6N to learn things but the old England problem of uncertainty in style and selection seems to have returned.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 10/05/2023 20:37
I hope not but I think Borthwick picking Farrell as captain and then quite passionately explaining why he did suggests he'll be starting. Just have to hope it isn't at 12.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 10/05/2023 21:30
Quote:bathonian80
Give it a few months and I think people will be begging to have Eddie back. I'm usually pretty optimistic about the national team, but I think Borthwick will be a disaster.
Disagree. You only have to look at what a twonk Jones is being in Auz right now for a reminder of how well rid we are. Pretty much a bankrupt Union and he's getting them buying out RL talent to join his RWC quest. The majority of coaches he's asked to join him have said "nope" and now he's talking about revolutionising the Auz game by ... err, getting them to kick some more, genius.
I'm pretty confident Borthwick will do a good job and the chances of me feeling embarrassed that this person is speaking for our International team are almost non-existent v a racing certainty as they were with Jones.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 11/05/2023 13:49
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:bathonian80
Give it a few months and I think people will be begging to have Eddie back. I'm usually pretty optimistic about the national team, but I think Borthwick will be a disaster.
Disagree. You only have to look at what a twonk Jones is being in Auz right now for a reminder of how well rid we are. Pretty much a bankrupt Union and he's getting them buying out RL talent to join his RWC quest. The majority of coaches he's asked to join him have said "nope" and now he's talking about revolutionising the Auz game by ... err, getting them to kick some more, genius.
.
Well as Twonks go Hatley and now Brad Davies seem to think he's worth working for
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 11/05/2023 14:57
Quote:dr.bath1865
it's time to pick players in the right shirts – this has to include Lawrence, who I think is being misused by Eng. Personally, I see him as a useful 12 but a potentially world-class 13.
The obsession with trying to make him a Manu Part Deux is, frankly, ridiculous as I think they're very different players. In the 6Ns, Lawrence at 12 was thrown time after time into brick walls and whilst he's explosive, he gets chopped quickly and doesn't carry many people into contact – his threat is in the wider channels where he can use his pace and footwork
Really don't understand the obsession with 'x is a 12 not a 13', 'y is a 13 not a 12'. I think it's proven beyond much argument that your 2 x centres need to tick off - between them, not both of them - kicking, passing, gainline, footwork, pace, defensive organisation (wide), defensive robustness (narrow). Cover those bases first. Worry about the number on their back second.
Positionally, they are probably the two most interchangeable players on the pitch given how much time they are split left/right, or have time to line up as they please from set-piece and phase-play.
You can complicate things by asking your 15 to cover things like kicking/passing - but that's just a compromise solution if you can't find a centre pairing to do it as your first option.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 11/05/2023 15:32
Quote:OptimistQuote:dr.bath1865
it's time to pick players in the right shirts – this has to include Lawrence, who I think is being misused by Eng. Personally, I see him as a useful 12 but a potentially world-class 13.
The obsession with trying to make him a Manu Part Deux is, frankly, ridiculous as I think they're very different players. In the 6Ns, Lawrence at 12 was thrown time after time into brick walls and whilst he's explosive, he gets chopped quickly and doesn't carry many people into contact – his threat is in the wider channels where he can use his pace and footwork
Really don't understand the obsession with 'x is a 12 not a 13', 'y is a 13 not a 12'. I think it's proven beyond much argument that your 2 x centres need to tick off - between them, not both of them - kicking, passing, gainline, footwork, pace, defensive organisation (wide), defensive robustness (narrow). Cover those bases first. Worry about the number on their back second.
Positionally, they are probably the two most interchangeable players on the pitch given how much time they are split left/right, or have time to line up as they please from set-piece and phase-play.
You can complicate things by asking your 15 to cover things like kicking/passing - but that's just a compromise solution if you can't find a centre pairing to do it as your first option.
Whilst I agree with most of that Opti I would say that a 13 does need to be a bit faster than a 12 so I'm not sure they are perfectly interchangeable. Mojo definitely doesn't like playing 13 and could JJ work at 12?
I do agree though that the stereotype of a 12 being a hefty crash ball merchant is wrong and now outdated.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 11/05/2023 16:51
I doubt Ford will be the 10 for the RWC unless there are injuries.
He's playing well at Sale but not well enough to have claimed the start of du Preez who has had an exceptional season (out of nowhere as far as I'm concerned, always thought he was kinda flakey) but it was both inevitable and understandable that having paid all that money Sanderson would stick him in as soon as he was fit. The comical defensive performances of his early caps back suggest he was just contact shy after returning which is also totally understandable.
I'm really interested to see how he goes. He's behind one of, if not the, strongest packs in the Premiership and will get loads of front foot ball.
The head-to-head with Pollard will be as interesting as a potential one with Smith or Farrell.
Tbh there are loads of mouth-watering match-ups in the Sale/Tigers game. Warr v JVP, Ford v Pollard, Steward v Carpenter, the Currys v Tigers foreign contingent in the backrow. Can Manu still cut it even at this level? If Rodd gets a chance what will Cole make of him? etc, etc.
I suspect Borthwick already has a very good idea of his team and whilst delivering in Finals will do them no harm with such a long camp ahead there is where the real decision-making will be done I suspect.
He's playing well at Sale but not well enough to have claimed the start of du Preez who has had an exceptional season (out of nowhere as far as I'm concerned, always thought he was kinda flakey) but it was both inevitable and understandable that having paid all that money Sanderson would stick him in as soon as he was fit. The comical defensive performances of his early caps back suggest he was just contact shy after returning which is also totally understandable.
I'm really interested to see how he goes. He's behind one of, if not the, strongest packs in the Premiership and will get loads of front foot ball.
The head-to-head with Pollard will be as interesting as a potential one with Smith or Farrell.
Tbh there are loads of mouth-watering match-ups in the Sale/Tigers game. Warr v JVP, Ford v Pollard, Steward v Carpenter, the Currys v Tigers foreign contingent in the backrow. Can Manu still cut it even at this level? If Rodd gets a chance what will Cole make of him? etc, etc.
I suspect Borthwick already has a very good idea of his team and whilst delivering in Finals will do them no harm with such a long camp ahead there is where the real decision-making will be done I suspect.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 11/05/2023 18:32
Quote:shipwrecked
I do agree though that the stereotype of a 12 being a hefty crash ball merchant is wrong and now outdated.
It was not always the 12 who was the "hefty crash ball merchant". The successful Bath sides of the 80s had Palmer/Halliday to start with, followed by Halliday/Guscott. Halliday playing the crash role at 12 initially then 13.
England's RWC winning team 2003 had Tindall at 13 with either Greenwood or Catt inside him.
In the 80s Leicester's England pairing would often interchange roles.
Further back England had a 13 taller & heavier than a backrow forward called Phil Davies. He & Butterfield formed a fine centre partnership for the LIons, while All Black Ron Rangi, another crasher, played mostly at 13.
So the position of the more physical centre has alternated according to the needs of the day (usually the prevailing defensive organisation and law changes)
PG
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 11/05/2023 19:12
Perhaps I should have said "current trend" PG. Showing impressive historical rugby knowledge I must say. If I remember rightly Ian McGeechan was a 12 not in the 'Manu' style. But rugby then was very different at the breakdown so is it a fair comparison?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 11/05/2023 19:34
Got me thinking PG, so I looked at the Lions 1974 video in SA. No forwards strung across the field then! Centres had acres of space and if you got caught in a ruck it would take 5 minutes to get back in the game once everyone got off you!
Centre play was very different then!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Centre play was very different then!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 11/05/2023 20:04
Wasn’t Charles Kent the original crash-ball Centre fir England?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 11/05/2023 20:19
I think it is not so much a matter of comparison as to say that different positional balances react to the shape of the game at the time. Or they are a reflection of the resources available to a team and the way the coach wants to use those resources.
Opti
I knew Charles Kent and played against him once. He was indeed used as a crash-ball centre, but the Lions pairing of Butterfield and Davis I referred to -with Davis in the crash role- predate him by 20 years.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:11:20:21:59 by P G Tips.
Opti
I knew Charles Kent and played against him once. He was indeed used as a crash-ball centre, but the Lions pairing of Butterfield and Davis I referred to -with Davis in the crash role- predate him by 20 years.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:11:20:21:59 by P G Tips.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: dr.bath1865 (IP Logged)
Date: 11/05/2023 23:02
I largely agree with you Opti about 12 and 13 being interchangeable. Bath do it quite well now with Mojo and Lawrence - they both play close and wide at various points in phase play.
My problem is how England are currently using Lawrence, and they’re using him the way they are because I think they’re desperate to find a hard carrying 12 who they can build their attack around. And to me hard carrying is not Lawrence’s biggest strength. Yes, he can carry into contact, but he’s not that effective close to the ruck, between 7 and 12. He’s much more effective, sometimes unplayable, wider out, running at space and using his pace and footwork between 12 and 14. His most devastating breaks this season have been wider. Hence why I think he’s England’s most dangerous attacking threat and should be deployed in a way that maximises his potential, rather than shoehorned into the up-down “12” position just because he has more power than other fit candidates.
As said above, 12 Manu 13 Lawrence could be devastating. I would hate to defend that. Or a different proposition of 10 Ford 12 Farrell 13 Lawrence could pose a tonne of threats. But my only hope is that Lawrence here both picked in the 13 shirt (ahead of Slade, who has a superior kicking game to Lawrence but little else) and gets the license to attack space and play like a 13. Obviously you then need a 12 - but id rather avoid playing Lawrence in a role that isn’t the one in which he’s most dangerous.
My problem is how England are currently using Lawrence, and they’re using him the way they are because I think they’re desperate to find a hard carrying 12 who they can build their attack around. And to me hard carrying is not Lawrence’s biggest strength. Yes, he can carry into contact, but he’s not that effective close to the ruck, between 7 and 12. He’s much more effective, sometimes unplayable, wider out, running at space and using his pace and footwork between 12 and 14. His most devastating breaks this season have been wider. Hence why I think he’s England’s most dangerous attacking threat and should be deployed in a way that maximises his potential, rather than shoehorned into the up-down “12” position just because he has more power than other fit candidates.
As said above, 12 Manu 13 Lawrence could be devastating. I would hate to defend that. Or a different proposition of 10 Ford 12 Farrell 13 Lawrence could pose a tonne of threats. But my only hope is that Lawrence here both picked in the 13 shirt (ahead of Slade, who has a superior kicking game to Lawrence but little else) and gets the license to attack space and play like a 13. Obviously you then need a 12 - but id rather avoid playing Lawrence in a role that isn’t the one in which he’s most dangerous.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 07:07
Completely agree dr b!
PG
PG
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: charlieboa (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 07:33
Like the sound of Ford, manu, ollie. Agree ollie is fantastic in wider channels.
Could work with someone in the back 3 who has a good kicking game like Malins or daily to offer another option
Could work with someone in the back 3 who has a good kicking game like Malins or daily to offer another option
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 07:49
So the suggestion is basically ditch Lawrence at 12 move him to 13 to accommodate Manu or Farrell at inside centre.
My issue with that is what are the chances of Manu surviving 6 games at 12 injury free? Farrell at 12 is a road block. Its predictable and lacks pace.
If Farrell plays it should be at 10, Lawrence and Kelly at 12, (SB knows Kelly) and Elliot Daly, Marchant or Slade at a push at 13.
The one thing that has revitalised both Bath and England is Lawrence's pace that is simply non existent if you play Manu and/or Farrell. It may well work in the early rounds then fall apart when it matters.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
My issue with that is what are the chances of Manu surviving 6 games at 12 injury free? Farrell at 12 is a road block. Its predictable and lacks pace.
If Farrell plays it should be at 10, Lawrence and Kelly at 12, (SB knows Kelly) and Elliot Daly, Marchant or Slade at a push at 13.
The one thing that has revitalised both Bath and England is Lawrence's pace that is simply non existent if you play Manu and/or Farrell. It may well work in the early rounds then fall apart when it matters.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 08:01
Yep - well articulated Dr B. However, one of very few nailed on, glued on and taped on for belt and braces selections is Steward at full back - so I think Tuilagi/Lawrence/Steward is a bit too lacking in the playmaking and kicking dept. Much as you’d hate to have to defend those 3 from 20 metres or less, the problem might be working your way up the pitch. And nothing will ever convince me that Farrell should be at 12, so - for me - a little bit of compromise on Lawrence enables England to perm all the attributes you want from your back line. Plus, if England are smart, they can exploit the expectation and threat that Lawrence will just crash it up, by using him as a dummy-threat and thereby keeping him free for the next wave wider out.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: charlieboa (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 08:09
Agree opti, that's why I would consider crowbarring a kicking winger in.
Steward has amazing strengths but he causes all kinds of balance issues I think by not being blisteringly quick or having a great kicking game
Steward has amazing strengths but he causes all kinds of balance issues I think by not being blisteringly quick or having a great kicking game
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 08:22
Yes, Steward is the counter to the opposition's kicking game whoever they are. A lot hinges on who is at 11 and 14.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 08:48
Quote:shipwrecked
Yes, Steward is the counter to the opposition's kicking game whoever they are. A lot hinges on who is at 11 and 14.
He is probably the 'nailed-on' back and so you have to build the backline around him. Hopefully in time a more 'rounded' player will appear and we won't have to shoehorn in Farrell/Slade just to have a kicking option outside of 10. I don't think ball players on the wings covers it...
The problem is we haven't found a backline that really works with him yet. Moments, sure, but I bet Borthwick couldn't tell you a 10-15 he'd be most confident with...
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 09:27
Kelly can kick a bit. He's no Farrell in that regard but he can do it.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 10:39
Steward is a very weak counter-attacker though. The opposition kick to him because they know he's not doing anything with it. I agree he's nailed on, but I'm not sure he should be.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 10:45
I'm very much in the camp that says Slade is part of England's most balanced backline. I think he's England's best option at 13 irrespective of other factors, but also - if you take him out, you start compensating and shoehorning elsewhere. Feels like a very pointless exercise.
Ford, Lawrence (or a very fit Tuilagi), Slade for me.
Joe Co's massive uptick recently - in form, fitness and work-rate - could be a bit of a bonus for England in that he can tick the gain-line busting box.
Ford, Lawrence (or a very fit Tuilagi), Slade for me.
Joe Co's massive uptick recently - in form, fitness and work-rate - could be a bit of a bonus for England in that he can tick the gain-line busting box.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 10:58
Slade's balance and experience I just don't think can be dispensed with at the moment. I think Joe does provide extra power, but I'm not sure I'd pick him along with Steward. Maybe if Watson moved to fullback and/or Malins was in the team. Plus, maybe, Murley.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 11:11
Anyone for Ford, Tuilagi, Slade, Murley, Steward, Watson ?
If Manu is fit and well, I could be tempted to pick him to start just because of how much impact Ollie L could have as an early sub, allowing Manu to go at it as hard as possible for 40 or so minutes.
With versatile players like Farrell, Malins or Daly available for the bench, that's a lot of bases covered.
If Manu is fit and well, I could be tempted to pick him to start just because of how much impact Ollie L could have as an early sub, allowing Manu to go at it as hard as possible for 40 or so minutes.
With versatile players like Farrell, Malins or Daly available for the bench, that's a lot of bases covered.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 11:31
Excellent.......except for Farrell
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 11:49
Yes I like that backline a lot. I think there's a clear cover strategy as well:
Ford/Farrell
Murley/Arundell
Lawrence/Tuilagi
Slade/Kelly
Watson/Malins
Steward/Daly
I guess Kelly is my only real question mark there - mostly due to experience.
Ford/Farrell
Murley/Arundell
Lawrence/Tuilagi
Slade/Kelly
Watson/Malins
Steward/Daly
I guess Kelly is my only real question mark there - mostly due to experience.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 12:10
I would think that the extent to which Borthwick and Kelly know and trust one another could compensate a bit for the lack of experience concern.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 12:23
I wouldn't say Daly is a like for like with Steward, Hasta - if that's what you mean by cover strategy?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 12:31
No, but you've got Watson as well, so it's a reasonable in-game reshuffle...
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 13:08
Those semi-final line-ups have got England trial vibes all over the place!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 14:12
Yeah, Malins isn't exactly a like for like with Watson either. But across the back three you can make that work.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hemington (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 14:30
What does Steward offer other than a brilliant under the high ball technique? He's not quick (so can't counter attack easily) not that good a boot and his tackling is OK but not anything more.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 14:31
He's big. Basically.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 14:36
He's a bomb disposal expert!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: woodpecker (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 15:42
I've got a vague memory of Ange Capuozzo making him look silly.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 16:09
Discussion about Steward is a bit like the Mike Brown days - England fans don’t mind losing unless, god forbid it is accompanied by trying to play a bit of footie.
Imagine a back line of Mitchell, Ford, Lawrence, Slade, Radwan, Arundell, Watson - except they are playing for the All Blacks and haven’t grown up from age 6-14 with every single parent shouting ‘run straight’ at them, and then from 15 onwards with every single head coach an ex-forward, drilling into them how to ‘play in the right areas’ and ‘earn the right to go wide’.
Imagine a back line of Mitchell, Ford, Lawrence, Slade, Radwan, Arundell, Watson - except they are playing for the All Blacks and haven’t grown up from age 6-14 with every single parent shouting ‘run straight’ at them, and then from 15 onwards with every single head coach an ex-forward, drilling into them how to ‘play in the right areas’ and ‘earn the right to go wide’.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 16:12
He can nullify the opposition's high ball, forcing them to do something different (or at least making that option unattractive). That's not to be sniffed at given that it then limits what you have to defend against.
Equally he's a weapon with the attacking high ball. Put him up against Capuozzo in the air, 9/10 times he wins it. Maybe not quite so dominant against others but I'd say he's the best in the world at the moment at that job.
He's not lightning quick, but I wouldn't say he's slow. He isn't evasive but actually I'd like to see him crash it up a bit more, he has the size for it. With Arundell and or Radwan in the back three with him, you've got your runners.
I'm a fan.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:12:16:15:22 by JK7.
Equally he's a weapon with the attacking high ball. Put him up against Capuozzo in the air, 9/10 times he wins it. Maybe not quite so dominant against others but I'd say he's the best in the world at the moment at that job.
He's not lightning quick, but I wouldn't say he's slow. He isn't evasive but actually I'd like to see him crash it up a bit more, he has the size for it. With Arundell and or Radwan in the back three with him, you've got your runners.
I'm a fan.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:12:16:15:22 by JK7.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: woodpecker (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 16:26
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 16:38
Quote:Optimist
Discussion about Steward is a bit like the Mike Brown days - England fans don’t mind losing unless, god forbid it is accompanied by trying to play a bit of footie.
Imagine a back line of Mitchell, Ford, Lawrence, Slade, Radwan, Arundell, Watson - except they are playing for the All Blacks and haven’t grown up from age 6-14 with every single parent shouting ‘run straight’ at them, and then from 15 onwards with every single head coach an ex-forward, drilling into them how to ‘play in the right areas’ and ‘earn the right to go wide’.
England can certainly try but exciting Gallagher Prem players aren't gonna make exciting international players - Marcus Smith might just be the latest in a long line to prove that...
But think the Mike Brown analogy is apt... The kind of 'casual' England fan (and the media) loves a trier and will happily overlook their glaring limitations.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 17:30
I fricken love Ange Capuozzo.
Steward is only 22, he can get better at counter-attacking. But at the moment he's neither a distributor nor a counter-attacker and those are big gaps to have as an international fullback. Teams don't change their plans to kick to him because he's good at it (see Wales) but purely because even if he does catch it he's not going to do anything dangerous with the ball.
Steward is only 22, he can get better at counter-attacking. But at the moment he's neither a distributor nor a counter-attacker and those are big gaps to have as an international fullback. Teams don't change their plans to kick to him because he's good at it (see Wales) but purely because even if he does catch it he's not going to do anything dangerous with the ball.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 17:37
Steward was MOTM for that Wales game.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 17:40
Given by who? Jiffy?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 17:52
Quote:hasta
I fricken love Ange Capuozzo.
Steward is only 22, he can get better at counter-attacking. But at the moment he's neither a distributor nor a counter-attacker and those are big gaps to have as an international fullback. Teams don't change their plans to kick to him because he's good at it (see Wales) but purely because even if he does catch it he's not going to do anything dangerous with the ball.
I think that is very harsh. Every time a team kicks to him and he catches it he has secured possession for England. That’s a plus surely.
The reason why we don’t make metres in return is because the likes of Farrell and JvP kick it back to them!
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: bathonian80 (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 18:00
Steward doesn't do anything dangerous with the ball?
Interesting statement...
Interesting statement...
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 18:01
Quote:The Bear
exciting Gallagher Prem players aren't gonna make exciting international players - Marcus Smith might just be the latest in a long line to prove that.
England just never fully commit to these type of players - never give them a gameplan or a team to capitalise on and complement their skills, never give it time to develop. Smith has spent his entire International career trying to do his best Owen Farrell impression. Is it really surprising he hasn’t looked like the Marcus Smith who plays for Quins?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 18:16
England have become so obsessed with this ‘play to your strength’ mantra that when the do achieve success in meeting that goal they do absolutely nothing with it!
We wasted a whole era of talented backs with the boot it upfield and truck it up mentality.
We even selected the likes of Daly and Slade because the could boot it a long way. Hard to believe!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:12:18:19:39 by shipwrecked.
We wasted a whole era of talented backs with the boot it upfield and truck it up mentality.
We even selected the likes of Daly and Slade because the could boot it a long way. Hard to believe!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:12:18:19:39 by shipwrecked.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 18:51
Quote:JK7
Put him up against Capuozzo in the air, 9/10 times he wins it. Maybe not quite so dominant against others but I'd say he's the best in the world at the moment at that job.
Except the one time we actually saw that was Farrell putting the cross-field kick on the money for him to catch it and walk it in and he got beaten in the air by a player half a foot shorter than him and several stone lighter. Malins denied him an almost identical one on a cross-field kick from Ford a couple of seasons ago)
I think he's a quality player and has huge potential but right now he's a big Mike Brown. Everyone got excited about the Wales game because he got so much ball but ne got so much because Wales know (as most Tier 1 teams do now) that he's both predictable and not much of a threat beyond physical if he runs the ball back. His defence isn't great either despite his size. Borthwick loves him and will keep backing him but honestly with the options we currently have and his limitations he should be being challenged now rather than nailed on.
On Sunday possibly the most important clash is Kelly V Manu. Even bright people are still making the mistake of picking Manu and hoping it comes good. Something we've all been doing for a decade now with relatively few signings that he is anything like the player he was. The bigger issue is the opposition now it now. Defenders don't honeypot to him as he just isn't the threat he used to be.
Huge expectation on Kelly to sort a major positional problem for England tbh whilst he's looked good (before his injury and since his return) he doesn't scream "oven-ready England International" which is what we need.
I do think that Lawrence can provide a solution at 12 but agree with others that he is much better at 13. That first game against Sarries he caused problems every time he got the ball. The second game that was limited to his play wider out (his combination of power, speed and skill is great)
The big question as alluded to above is does that mean dropping Slade? Lawrence feels to good to be coming on from the bench. Equally what Slade has really needed is a physical 12 and Kelly is arguably less phsyical than Lawrence ... it's far from easy to sort.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 19:31
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:JK7
Put him up against Capuozzo in the air, 9/10 times he wins it. Maybe not quite so dominant against others but I'd say he's the best in the world at the moment at that job.
Except the one time we actually saw that was Farrell putting the cross-field kick on the money for him to catch it and walk it in and he got beaten in the air by a player half a foot shorter than him and several stone lighter. Malins denied him an almost identical one on a cross-field kick from Ford a couple of seasons ago)
I think he's a quality player and has huge potential but right now he's a big Mike Brown. Everyone got excited about the Wales game because he got so much ball but ne got so much because Wales know (as most Tier 1 teams do now) that he's both predictable and not much of a threat beyond physical if he runs the ball back. His defence isn't great either despite his size. Borthwick loves him and will keep backing him but honestly with the options we currently have and his limitations he should be being challenged now rather than nailed on.
Honestly I can't recall individual examples good or bad but there's no reason a 6'5 guy so imperious under the high ball defensively can't do it in attack if the kicks are on the money, even if it's just to tap the ball back to a mate.
Wales were kicking to compete so he was never likely to do much more than secure the ball safely. Had they been a bit brighter they would have tried plan B, because he killed plan A by himself.
If they opposition kicks long, pass to Watson/Arundell/some other twinkletoes on the wing (oversimplifying perhaps).
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 21:40
Tbh JK7 I don't remember the Welsh game well enough but my recollection had been that they didn't kick that much to compete but I am perfectly willing to accept I may have that wrong.
I'd disagree that as a tactic (whichever it was) it failed though as we struggled to get out of our half and much of that was because kick return from Steward is basically route one with little subterfuge or variation.
The thing is we're not talking about previously where the FB choices were rock solid under the high ball but limited in attack V flakey under the high ball but varied and skilful attack. We have players now who are very good at the core FB skills but also would add considerably to the attack.
I'd disagree that as a tactic (whichever it was) it failed though as we struggled to get out of our half and much of that was because kick return from Steward is basically route one with little subterfuge or variation.
The thing is we're not talking about previously where the FB choices were rock solid under the high ball but limited in attack V flakey under the high ball but varied and skilful attack. We have players now who are very good at the core FB skills but also would add considerably to the attack.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 22:24
Wales NEVER kicked to compete in that game, they kicked it long to Steward. Who did nothing with it. Not saying he can't be used, not saying being good under the high ball isn't valuable. But he's not (yet) an effective counter attacker or distributor.
OM, 12/13 is a pointless consideration, no teams line-up like that in attack any more. As long as there's balance in the centres, the numbers don't matter.
OM, 12/13 is a pointless consideration, no teams line-up like that in attack any more. As long as there's balance in the centres, the numbers don't matter.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 12/05/2023 22:53
Apologies, I'm must be misremembering. Not sure why Steward was given MOTM if he was catching balls uncontested and doing nothing with it though?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 13/05/2023 01:36
Quote:hasta
Because Jiffy doesn't understand modern rugby tactics. Catching the ball a lot when the opposition is not kicking to compete is not that special. Some specific analysis:
[youtu.be]
Hasta, that seems to imply you understand modern rugby tactics better than a dual code rugby international.
Of course it’s possible but I’m going to suggest you have an overinflated self opinion.
Just saying 😉
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 13/05/2023 02:09
No, no, you're correct, I'm a God among rugby watchers and so sharp is my analysis it can cut diamond.
Just ask my rugby betting history 😬
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:02:10:23 by hasta.
Just ask my rugby betting history 😬
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:02:10:23 by hasta.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: JK7 (IP Logged)
Date: 13/05/2023 08:24
Quote:hasta
No, no, you're correct, I'm a God among rugby watchers and so sharp is my analysis it can cut diamond.
Just ask my rugby betting history 😬
I wouldn't question this for a second.
I'm going to though...
A cursory look at match reviews shows a great deal of praise for Steward. If it was Jiffy that gave the official MOTM he wasn't the only one that was impressed.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 13/05/2023 14:19
I'm not saying Steward isn't excellent. He is. Particularly under the high ball. I am saying that very few of the kicks in that Wales game were kicks to compete, which makes taking high balls easier, and that Freddie Steward doesn't have much of a counter attacking or distribution game at this time, neither of which I think are particularly controversial statements. I also think that the awarding of the motm award was in part influenced by Jiffy being frustrated by Wales' tactics. Which also isn't to say that Steward didn't play well.
I'm basically saying that as England evolve I wouldn't mind seeing a more attacking threat at 15. Maybe Steward will become that player. But he isn't it now.
I'm basically saying that as England evolve I wouldn't mind seeing a more attacking threat at 15. Maybe Steward will become that player. But he isn't it now.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Dorset Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 13/05/2023 16:44
Steward is excellent under the high ball, but if you kick to grass he really isn't that great.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 13/05/2023 18:12
Quote:Dorset Boy
Steward is excellent under the high ball, but if you kick to grass he really isn't that great.
I agree but then is anyone?
Ironically the best exponent of that tactic is Leinster. Where they move the ball before kicking, often finding grass.
A point highlighted by that dual code 10 incidentally.
Going back to the Wales game to suggest that Englands attack is dependent on an attacking full back is frankly pretty desperate.
RvP and Farrell underfunctioned badly in that game even with Lawrence.
Farrell missed 9 points and the only try conceded was when Malins gave the ball to LRZ.
England need a 15 that is solid defender of g the high ball. A tactic used by many top teams. (Ireland) When England find that player and he has the bonus of being a brilliant counter attacker then Stewards place is in jeopardy. At the moment I don’t see any contenders.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 13/05/2023 18:37
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:Going back to the Wales game to suggest that Englands attack is dependent on an attacking full back is frankly pretty desperate.Dorset Boy
Steward is excellent under the high ball, but if you kick to grass he really isn't that great.
Who's suggesting that? I'm saying as England evolve they should look to have a fullback who adds more than just catching. Steward is fine for now. But it's not like other fullbacks can't catch. And most contestable kicks tend to be contested by wingers.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 15/05/2023 09:50
Back-row and midfield are England's traditional areas of complete and utter incoherent mess. But the back 3 is another post-Eddie muddle. If you asked 10 rugby pundits for England's best back 3 you would be perming from Steward, Watson, Daly, Malins, May, Nowell, Murley, OHC, Arundell, Radwan, Cokanasiga, Freeman.
In a way it's good not to have to have much discussion about 15, but I wouldn't mind seeing Ant there at all.
In a way it's good not to have to have much discussion about 15, but I wouldn't mind seeing Ant there at all.
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 15/05/2023 10:06
Quote:Optimist
Back-row and midfield are England's traditional areas of complete and utter incoherent mess. But the back 3 is another post-Eddie muddle. If you asked 10 rugby pundits for England's best back 3 you would be perming from Steward, Watson, Daly, Malins, May, Nowell, Murley, OHC, Arundell, Radwan, Cokanasiga, Freeman.
In a way it's good not to have to have much discussion about 15, but I wouldn't mind seeing Ant there at all.
Watson didn't do anything yesterday to suggest a call up
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 15/05/2023 10:07
Does he need 'calling up'? He's already there isn't he?
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 15/05/2023 12:31
Quote:Optimist
Does he need 'calling up'? He's already there isn't he?
Ok, change that to justify the call up. I hope he does shine at the RWC. And maybe I'm missing something but I haven't seen anything recently that has been above the contenders for either wing or full back shirt.
There was one dazzling, mazy run in the HC for a try from deep and generally quality sound stuff under high ball but I honestly can't think of anything else. Might be more about the Leicester way of course and why he's leaving them to showcase his qualities elsewhere
Re: CORONATION CLASH. BATH v SARACENS. TEAM UP!
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 15/05/2023 16:29
Quote:hasta
I'm basically saying that as England evolve I wouldn't mind seeing a more attacking threat at 15. Maybe Steward will become that player. But he isn't it now.
and you're spot on. We already have FB options including Malins who are as good under the defensive high ball and not far off on attacking. Plus they actually know how to defend, can find space and take and give a pass when running. The game against Sale highlighted again his strengths and limitations.
I'm not of the view his selection is a bad one just slightly concerned that it seems so certain when he comes up short in so many other areas.
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