Saints v Bath - Atoning for last week’s sins

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:08:23:55:16 by CoochieCoo.

Adam Leal officiating in this one - got to say on the few occasions I have seen him officiate he appears OK and is pretty consistent with his decision making - probably a kiss of death.

What the Premiership cup showed is that we have to dominate this Saints side from start to finish and cannot allow a fall off, having given away such a big lead in the cup game - I would say along with Quins they have the most potent and dangerous backlines in the Premiership and if they are given the ball and any space they will score and score quickly.

A very dangerous side - however if you dominate their pack and starve that backline that is where teams have shown over the past few seasons how to beat them - Sarries did it brilliantly in the Semi-Final last year - totally dominated their pack and effectively starved their backs of possession and pressed with high defence so the scraps they did get they shut down quickly - very South African like.

I would go for something like:

Gallagher, TDG, Butt, Redpath, Joe C, Russell, Spencer, Schuman, Dunn, Jonker, Ewels, McNally, Reid, Coetzee, Cloete. Finishers: Du Toit, Annett, Stuart, Richards, Barbary, Underhill, Schrueder, Bailey. Banking on heavy wet pitch and those finishers provide massive power - I know I would not like to be on an opposition front row seeing that trio come on after 50-60 minutes - a bit of a "Bath Bomb" Squad (Sorry couldn't resist it! ) TDG on the wing allows flexibility and counters their pace in the backline IMHO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:03:08:58:20 by Ali1969.

Like those teams you are suggesting.

Assume the forecast is terrible and pitch will be heavy?

I would go something like :

Gallagher, coko, mojo, redpath, muir, russell, spencer, schoeman, annett, stuart, roux, ewels, richards, underhill, reid.

Bench: beno, dunn, du toit, mcnally, flw, barbeary, schreuder, bailey

Hoping roux is through his protocols.

That's plenty of bang off the bench. Would start stuart and give him 40-50 mins.

Was tempted by butt at centre but would go for the relative experience of redpath and mojo as saints midfield are v smart and creative.

Always prefer tdg at 15 but maybe it's a day for Gallagher to hit some big touchfinders

Forecast for a lot of rain but Franklins Gardens has a wonderful playing surface and I think it drains really well so may be ok underfoot. Wet ball though, so handling will be key. Will either team trust their backs to fling the ball around? Northampton probably will be tempted. Their backs their best chance of winning.

Well no Russell is no what I was expecting

Apart from that it is an incredible team

Starting XV: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Niall Annett, 3 Thomas du Toit, 4 Josh McNally, 5 Fergus Lee-Warner, 6 Miles Reid ©, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Jaco Coetzee, 9 Louis Schreuder, 10 Orlando Bailey, 11 Will Muir, 12 Cameron Redpath, 13 Max Ojomoh, 14 Ruaridh McConnochie, 15 Tom de Glanville

Replacements: 16 Tom Dunn, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Alfie Barbeary, 21 Ben Spencer, 22 Sam Harris, 23 Louie Hennessey

Whats up with Russell, injured/resting?

It's great to see Harris and Hennessey on the bench. Lacking a little bit of punch in the backs maybe? Still a strong pack and bench and I think makes sense to give Finn a break.

Quote:

Woodpecker
Whats up with Russell, injured/resting?

Been constant rotation so follows that pattern gives Bailey minutes aswell.

I also don’t think Saints is the team you need punchy backs for going to be a very open game which they both suit

Well that shows what I know! I make that 6 of my XV correct. Not that surprised on Finn, really. This will be a big test of our depth and cohesiveness. Can we make so many changes and remain coherent.

Would be a big positive if we go to a place like Franklins Gardens and get a result (or at least put in a strong performance and get points) without having to pick the out-and-out first team. Bailey deserves a start, so happy for Finn to rest, and having the likes of Dunn, Ewels and Barbeary on the bench shows the strength of the squad up front. Pleased Coetzee is starting- one dropped ball does not a bad player make.

(big IF... because if we get hammered I'll be asking why Dunn, Ewels, Barbeary and Finn aren't starting our most difficult games!)

2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper

I don't want to put any sort of curse on anyone, but it's great that Obano's injury was only minor, that Barbeary is stringing a period of fitness together, and that McConnochie is back; it's great that we have sufficient quality to rotate even the galacticos, and it's great that younger players are being drip-fed into strong sides, rather than hung out to dry in occasional United games with equally inexperienced teammates. Also geat that Bailey has the incentive of knowing he will be trusted to start.

15 George Furbank (c)
14 Tommy Freeman
13 Fraser Dingwall
12 Rory Hutchinson
11 George Hendy
10 Fin Smith
9 Tom James

1 Alex Waller
2 Curtis Langdon
3 Elliot Millar Mills
4 Alex Moon
5 Alex Coles
6 Angus Scott-Young
7 Tom Pearson
8 Lewis Ludlam

Replacements:
16 Tom Cruse
17 Ethan Waller
18 Paul Hill
19 Chunya Munga
20 Sam Graham
21 Archie McParland
22 Ollie Sleightholme
23 Tom Seabrook

Jvg putting serious faith in the squad with his rotation.

In some ways high risk but at the same time I would argue it has to be done and is v smart.

Makes sense to use flw a lot whilst we have him.

I think a lbp this week and a win next would be a decent return. Would be 3 wins from 5 and 2 lbp.

Exciting to see Harris and hennessey in the 23- maybe a few knocks we aren't aware of (butt/ gallagher/worboys?) but also I assume a nod to how highly regarded they are and how big a future they have with us.

I guess that Orlando is trusted with the kicking - really hope it goes well and he gets his confidence back.

Ewan Richards not in the 23?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Good to see some faith in the squad and have the 2 England boys back. My only concern is we are missing some big leaders in that team, Spencer, Dunn, Ewels, Russell Gallagher etc. Shame Van Velze is still injured and now Cloete.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:03:13:19:49 by copester.

Quote:

Woodpecker
Whats up with Russell, injured/resting?

I think he’s away on holiday, presumably using up some of the required post - international downtime. He’s got to take it at some point. There are no easy games this season so I guess it’s better sooner rather than later.

Quote:

shipwrecked
Ewan Richards not in the 23?

Bit surprised/disappointed assuming he isn't injured.

I wonder if jvg et al see him v much as the successor to flw as a good option at 6 and lock? May as well use flw while we have him?

Very happy with whatever squad they pick:

- if some players are carrying a knock (however small), then fine;
- if some players need a rest after RWC, then fine;
- if some players need game time, then fine;
- if it would bring some young guys on having them in a matchday 23, then fine;
- if some players would get more for playing for BUCS etc., then fine...

Can't say I'm surprised (or disappointed) whatever the reasons tbh - just looking forward to seeing how they go. It is such a strong squad these days its good to use them and mitigate injuries like we have had in previous seasons (and Gloucester seem to have already?).

COYB!

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

charlieboa

Quote:

shipwrecked
Ewan Richards not in the 23?

Bit surprised/disappointed assuming he isn't injured.

I wonder if jvg et al see him v much as the successor to flw as a good option at 6 and lock? May as well use flw while we have him?

Guess the issue is he doesn’t get in over Ewels on the bench and in a 5/3 you are going to want an out and out backrower at 20.

Yeah fine really with richards non selection tbh ok relfection as jvg is making very positive noises about him over the last few months and when flw goes I do think he will get more game time naturally.

Redpath set to be only player to start all 4 games?

Rokobilly - love the title

Quote:

charlieboa
Redpath set to be only player to start all 4 games?

I think Will Muir has as well, he would be first back on the team sheet for me, scoring unscoreable tries and taking the kick pass from Finn Russell in torrential rain was outstanding. I loved Watson but WM seems to score more tries and is always a threat.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

Francis Allen
Forecast for a lot of rain but Franklins Gardens has a wonderful playing surface and I think it drains really well so may be ok underfoot. Wet ball though, so handling will be key. Will either team trust their backs to fling the ball around? Northampton probably will be tempted. Their backs their best chance of winning.

Dan Punderfoot at Saints Early on tomorrow - [www.metoffice.gov.uk]

Quote:

shipwrecked
I loved Watson but WM seems to score more tries and is always a threat.

Watson definitely a star attraction but Will Muir is exactly the kind of player you need in a squad. Seems to perform every week, does things that others don't, generally has a good injury track record, seems comfortable in the squad and doesn't disappear in Autumn and Spring.

Ali1969 Leal refereed Sarries game against Glaws last week and I thought he had a very good game despite him penalising Sarries for slow play a couple of times (which I'm in favour of even so) good, clear communication and consistent with both sides.

Looking forward to this game as a neutral and hoping the weather holds off. Interesting head-to-head at 7. Underhill v Pearson. I'd really like to see the later in the next EPS but the former showed against the Pumas there's lots of life in the not-at-all-old-dog yet!

[quote The Bear][quote shipwrecked] I loved Watson but WM seems to score more tries and is always a threat[/quote]

WM doesn't seem to get any of the 'more tries like this one and he's bound to attract the attention of national coaches' type of coverage, and it kind of feels as though other teams/coaches have failed to pick up on his threat.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

charlieboa
Redpath set to be only player to start all 4 games?

I think Will Muir has as well, he would be first back on the team sheet for me, scoring unscoreable tries and taking the kick pass from Finn Russell in torrential rain was outstanding. I loved Watson but WM seems to score more tries and is always a threat.

Think he was rssted against sarries SW?

🐎 is a fave of mine as well. Been a brilliant signing. I love rmc who is class and he has arguably proven to be an even better asset

This is almost our first real test to see where we are at. We managed to beat Newcastle but not by much, we had a great win against a depleted Sarries team & we then lost to a depleted Leicester. We really need to win this one to get back on track. How we do will tell us a lot.

Blimey - Sarries will be a different animal tomorrow. Think we picked the right time to play them!

Bath aren’t really strong enough to get away with this amount of squad rotation, but credit to JvG for doing it anyway. Demonstrates he is looking after player health, which is a positive.

The lack of a kicker in the starting 15 along with missing a number 8 with the go forward power is likely to cost us tomorrow.

I think giving Coetzee the chance to immediately make up for the end of last week is the right call. Let's see if he can step up.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Bath aren’t really strong enough to get away with this amount of squad rotation, but credit to JvG for doing it anyway. Demonstrates he is looking after player health, which is a positive.
The lack of a kicker in the starting 15 along with missing a number 8 with the go forward power is likely to cost us tomorrow.

I don’t understand this at all, we have more than enough quality to rotate. If we look at the individuals -
2. Annett - arguably been the more in form hooker lineout wise
4. McNally - poor last game but a very well experienced prem player
5. FLW - was the best lock we had last season
8. Coetzee - not proven yes but finally given an opportunity with a dominant pack
9 - Accepted poor respectively
10 - Played very well in all his games so far, kicking suspect but it is improving
14 - Try in his last game and a solid backup

I’m sorry but I don’t get how that isn’t a strong enough side to rotate ?

Quote:

hasta
I think giving Coetzee the chance to immediately make up for the end of last week is the right call. Let's see if he can step up.

For me costly mistakes have to result in being dropped, however I fully understand JvG’s decision to rest Barbeary. Good management of player health which is important, but Coetzee is a significant downgrade and with wet conditions I have concerns over his handling skills.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Bath aren’t really strong enough to get away with this amount of squad rotation, but credit to JvG for doing it anyway. Demonstrates he is looking after player health, which is a positive.
The lack of a kicker in the starting 15 along with missing a number 8 with the go forward power is likely to cost us tomorrow.

It will be Spencer of course but the club do lack a front line kicker when Finn is out, neither TdG, Galagher, Bailey are front line kickers and you would think with our specialised kicking coach Bailey would have improved, he was much better as an academy player.

Exeter, Tigers, Sarries, Quins, Saints, Bristol, Glaws, Sale all have longer range kickers, its a squad miss!


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

Quote:

shipwrecked

Quote:

OutsideBath
Bath aren’t really strong enough to get away with this amount of squad rotation, but credit to JvG for doing it anyway. Demonstrates he is looking after player health, which is a positive.
The lack of a kicker in the starting 15 along with missing a number 8 with the go forward power is likely to cost us tomorrow.

It will be Spencer of course but the club do lack a front line kicker when Finn is out, neither TdG, Galagher, Bailey are front line kickers and you would think with our specialised kicking coach Bailey would have improved, he was much better as an academy player.

Exeter, Tigers, Sarries, Quins, Saints, Bristol, Glaws, Sale all have longer range kickers, its a squad miss!

All Bailey has to do is get himself a private kicking coach and practice. The Bath kicking coach isn’t helping him at all so he should ignore him.

This is one area of the game that should be easy for him to fix.

As it stands opposing sides can comfortably give away penalties when playing Bath.

Quote:

OutsideBath

As it stands opposing sides can comfortably give away penalties when playing Bath.

He was poor from the tee last season but maybe he has improved again over the summer? Also depends on the weather conditions and if we can get the maul game going.

I'm glad we're rotating but Saints at Franklin's garden probably wouldn't be the one I'd choose. Still a strong team mind, just a few question marks but Saints are reliably good at home.

I'm glad we're rotating but Saints at Franklin's garden probably wouldn't be the one I'd choose. Still a strong team mind, just a few question marks but Saints are reliably good at home.[/quote]

Against which team would you be happy to rotate against Bear? I’m glad that we’re doing this if it does reduce the risk of injury particularly as we need to have alternative players who are much of a muchness in most positions & that is broadly the case, though not at halfback but Finn needs a break following months of continuous rugby. Care will have to be exercised with Spencer.

Bit of chat about rotation in the Sale v Glos game last night. Glos had a few big players missing and discussion in the comm box about how away at Sale on a Friday night needs players like Ludlum. But then again as they discussed, when do you rest players, as there are 9 tough away trips, and gives squad guys great experience.

Austin interesting about winning your home games + 3/4 away games = playoffs. Probably about right, but I’d argue that the league is so competitive that no team will win all of their home games. Shorter season means greater need to pick the A team more often- but also need to consider how you get the best out of them when it matters. Don’t envy DoRs, but I’m happy with jvgs approach to date.

2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Bit of chat about rotation in the Sale v Glos game last night. Glos had a few big players missing and discussion in the comm box about how away at Sale on a Friday night needs players like Ludlum. But then again as they discussed, when do you rest players, as there are 9 tough away trips, and gives squad guys great experience.

I wonder if we'd be seeing these degrees of rotation if there was a genuine relegation?

As for which games to rotate in, that is a tough question. My guess is that Sale away (especially on a Fri) will be a pick of many teams...

Quote:

The Bear

Quote:

OutsideBath

As it stands opposing sides can comfortably give away penalties when playing Bath.

He was poor from the tee last season but maybe he has improved again over the summer? Also depends on the weather conditions and if we can get the maul game going.

Agreed JVG isn’t putting Bailey in as the only kicker if he’s not. He simply wasn’t trusted last season so there is a big improvement clearly. I’m looking forward to Bailey nailing every kick now !

Quote:

The Bear
I wonder if we'd be seeing these degrees of rotation if there was a genuine relegation?

Isn't this season the first of the bottom v top play-off to decide relegation/promotion?

Coetzee turnover: Miles Reid off for HIA
3 v 3



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:04:15:08:55 by Mike the Taxi.

Miles Reid back on

Is it me or did the Saints scrum half kick the ball back into the scrum there?

Wide open for Pearson !

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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Lots of errors and poor decisions. Dropped catches under no pressue by the back 3, line out not straight, missing the shot clock... need to sort ourselves out.

du Toit try!!

Better! Cam de TDT. 10-10.

Converted by Bailey

10 v 10

Lineout shaky

McNally wins a line out penalty……….for Saints and they score !

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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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De Glanville try!

Conversion missed
17 v 15

HT 17 v 15

Too many basic errors to build any pressure, giving Saints easy exits from 22 into ours. With ball we have shown we can stress their defence too. Need to go through phases.

Josh again and .just remind me who’s the defence coach ?

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We have definitely got ourselves on the wrong side of Sir

He’s been bang on in my view. Good ref .

Poor all round

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Should have won that comfortably

Too many scrum and lineout penalties given away. Getting within the 5 meter 3 times and not getting anything.

Frustrating loss, silly unforced errors that just relieved the pressure on Saints repeatedly…

Won by scrums again, whatever Bath were doing, the ref didnt like it and it allowed them to release pressure time and time again. Moon would have been my motm. Bath had 2 maul try opportunities both denied by him. Bath had a chance to win it in the end but the ref was scared to blow for not rolling repeatedly which eventually led to Saints getting over the ball and winning the penalty to win the game. I'll take a point from Saints away tho with the 15 we started with.

General observations. TdG and Underhill very good, Muir unplayable at times. Barbeary has added to his highlight real, some fantastic carries. Bailey increasingly doesn't look the part at fly half, he should seriously consider a long term move to 12. Finally, Stuart was poor. Very disappointing. Spencer is the best English 9 in the Premiership. The difference wasn't even funny when he came on.

This is why I moaned and moaned after last week....one sloppy loss in a fixture we should be winning turns into another sloppy loss when we had plenty of chances to win and a good start to the season becomes a mediocre one.

The will stuart contract negotiations could get interesting if he keeps playing like that. I only heard on the radio so no idea if it was harsh but one half of scrummaging is winning the battle and the other half was painting a good picture to the ref.

He wasn't doing at least one of those two (tbf sounded like schoeman got a rough ride from the ref as well fairly or unfairly). Tough ask being thrown straight back in i guess.

What I thought would be a great strength this season in the set piece is so far an achilles heel. Jvg will not and should not be amused as we have had all our front line options available in the tight five.

Sounds like some positives out of it but I am not fussed on the 'plucky loser' tag. Totally butchered loads of golden chances by the sounds of it and winning/losing is a habit.

On a more positive note congrats to mojo and dunny on their milestones.

Sounded like several decent individual performances but overall disappointing. Before the game I thought lbp would be a good result but sounded like it was a great chance to get more.

Maybe I am easily swayed by the radio bris commentary so great to hear the opinions of those who were there or who watched on prtv

Disappointing performance from the visitors after all the hype over their good start to the season. The game was certainly there to be won but to be fair Saints defended heroically in the second half.
Ref had a decent game so no complaints.

Got on the wrong side of the ref, scrum penalties were harsh (IMO) but Saints had painted a better picture. Penalties are a real concern so far this season, and not managing the referee has been a long term problem.

I actually thought we played really well, and should have comfortably won the game. But we conceded some really soft tries, didn't take our opportunities (there was plenty of them), and ultimately didn't manage the game very well.

Furbank was brilliant for Saints, every loose kick we made, he'd clear it and we'd have to build from our half. We needed to avoid set piece, as they consistently resulted in compounded errors gifting Saints field position within our half.

A lot to be positive about in my mind.

Quote:

Rokobilly
Should have won that comfortably

🤣🤣🤣🤣

When you look at the individuals in the pack we really should be dominant, what’s gone wrong?

We got what we deserved. Frustrating yet again. McNally penalised for blocking in a line out, Paul Hill does exactly the same 10 mins later and play on......sigh!!

adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.

Bath irritating the Referee yet again, that and silly penalties cost them the game. Improve the scrum set piece, cut out the stupid errors, respect the Referee and Bath can be a serious title contender. On the day a game they should have won but full credit to Northampton for capitalising on our weaknesses. I thought Adam Leal had a pretty good game.

Lots of chat about ref Leal and also the team rotation.
2 points:
1. It wasn’t the ref who opened the door and welcomed Saints thru for each of their tries
2. With Prem squads generally lacking in depth I’m beginning to think that the Top 14 mantra of ‘win at home, pick up scraps away’ to get top 4, leads them to believe that fielding weaker teams when away can still lead to the holy grail.
This w/e is it coincidental that Tigers, Glos, Bath & Brizzers are ‘resting’’ many first choices?

Good or not, the variance in refereeing from week-to-week is not ideal. I kind of miss the days of Barnes, Doyle etc.

I think re: the scrums the early decisions were poor but that set his reference point and there probably wasn't much we could do.

The main thing for me was that we struck back in the first half going through the phases. In the second we reverted to kicking it away until a frantic finale. I thought the rotation was a bad idea but there was more enterprise before we brought our big names on.

Worryingly the mental fragility seems to be back. Like Charlie said, we've let momentum slip away. Huge few weeks coming up.

This was a match which would determine where we are at & on current form it looks as if we might end up about 7th out of 9 teams. Disappointing considering the great end to last season & the recent star acquisitions. It seems we can only win with the ex Worcesterv Warriers, Lawrence & Hill.

Just watched the match. Its the first game I've seen us play this term and, based on that showing, I cannot understand how we were even close to the top of the league. Its exactly like we never stopped playing last season's matches. Not listening to the ref, dumb lineouts and, after the starters went off, really, really, really poor scrums. The ref was just giving everything to Saints in the end, cos it was simpler. No spark in the backs and hands like feet all round. I'd expected the New Jerusalem and I got the same old mistakes from the same old Bath. Poor show.

I hope Finn is superhuman cos he's going need to be to single-handedly drag us out of the trough of mediocrity we've been in for 20 years.

My MotM - Thomas Du Toit, a unit and a half. We'll need him.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:11:05:01:43:21 by joethefanatic.

Perhaps the new additions to the coaching team need time to bed in because it appears they’ve all achieved elsewhere but not here so far. I thought that as part of the former tarnished regime Hatley should go but since his departure the forwards have gone backwards. We collectively are back to failing to learn from our mistakes, so easy to beat, just wait for the next mistake. JvG really needs to get a handle on this.

The indiscipline and inability to react to refs unfortunately is a tough one to coach i imagine!?

But the players don't seem to learn.

Solve that one....

Do you go OB's route and drop players who repeatedly do daft things? Does that work? Is it viable? Do other clubs do it?

Destined for mediocrity yet again if we don't sort it out soon.

I have no real issues with the rotation- it sounded like we had chances to win the game but completely butchered them. The squad was in theory good enough i think to sneak a win- you don't expect stuart and schoeman to come on and get pinged 4 or 5 times in 25 mins for example. 6 day turnaround to glos prob in jvg's mind also.

The squad was certainly good enough to win this game, I won’t say should have as that is disrespectful to the opposition, I would say they had a real opportunity to win but made real hard work of it with silly penalties and unforced errors , as well as leaving doors wide open ! Well done Saints.

As others have said not learning to go with the ref. If he says use it twice in a maul and you don’t what do you expect ? If the ref says leave it and you don’t same result.

I’m not sure about leaving players out who continue to give away silly penalties, I don’t see that as the complete answer but maybe worth trying.

I personally thought Adam Leal had a good game.

I’m sure (hope) for an improvement for the next game…..a must win ?

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Finn Russell's absence explained. He was in New York!

Johan van Graan, Russell’s manager, disclosed that a one-week break had been scheduled for all the players and that Russell would be returning for the upcoming west-country derby against Gloucester next weekend.

“Finn will be back for the derby (with Gloucester) and that is the agreement we had from the start that everyone in the squad will have a week away,” said Van Graan.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

I am fuming! I travelled away to the Gardens, not the easiest of journeys to make, and saw am almost exact replica of the behaviours we saw at home to Leicester.
Not paying attention to the ref's instructions, arrogance??
Stupid penalties
Not winning the tight five battles
No threat from the driving maul
Looked like the hooper scenario all over again
Trained well but executed poorly, need to put it right sharpish

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
...made real hard work of it with silly penalties and unforced errors...
...If he says use it twice in a maul and you don’t what do you expect ? If the ref says leave it and you don’t same result.

This is what drove me nuts when watching it. It's not the first time we've had the ref shout 'use it' and lost the maul to a turnover because we didn't. I get wanting to leave playing the ball to the last minute, and maybe there was a hand I couldn't see on the TV preventing being played, but you're a few metres out, at least give it a crack.

It was also the repeated, silly penalties during the first half for basic stuff that just killed us and made stringing any phases together difficult.

It had shades of the start of last season, interspersed (thankfully) with some decent attacking play, which was completely absent before.

I suppose it's a measure of how expectations have risen that we are looking to win every game now.

I think Charlieboa called it right:

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I think a lbp this week and a win next would be a decent return. Would be 3 wins from 5 and 2 lbp.

Let's hope we can get the win on Friday!

I'm sure the messages this week will be discipline and trust

I wonder if we hear the ref more clearly than the players, given that he is miked up. With a vociferous crowd and concentrating on the play, perhaps the refs calls don't reach the players.

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Bath Hammer
This was a match which would determine where we are at & on current form it looks as if we might end up about 7th out of 9 teams. Disappointing considering the great end to last season & the recent star acquisitions.

Disappointing for sure but it certainly doesn't determine anything. To get top 4 a team needs to win all bar one of home matches and probably no more than 3 away with a decent number of LBP and TBPs

Saints away was not a 'must win' but securing the LBP was essential. Next one v Glos though is a target away win I would reckon

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nick holder
I am fuming! I travelled away to the Gardens, not the easiest of journeys to make, and saw am almost exact replica of the behaviours we saw at home to Leicester.
Not paying attention to the ref's instructions, arrogance??
Stupid penalties
Not winning the tight five battles
No threat from the driving maul
Looked like the hooper scenario all over again
Trained well but executed poorly, need to put it right sharpish

I go to most away goes but couldn't make this game. Had I, I would have fumed all the way home by the manner in which we lost that game and Nick has summarised it exactly as many of us saw it on TV. There is definitely a degree of arrogance from the players that the Referees will be chatting about in their weekly meeting and if it doesn't stop will come back to bite us.
The other reflection I have about the weekend games was the way Saracens and Exeter ramped up the tempo when they needed to. In contrast, our play was ponderous and predictable

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joethefanatic
My MotM - Thomas Du Toit, a unit and a half

He's certainly a big beast but seemed to struggle at scrum time somewhat. I was surprised at how dominant Saints scrum was but think their locks were exceptional.
I thought it was a decent game. Leal refereed well.

Enjoyed the head-to-heads. Both Bailey and Smith played well but Smith has a composure about him. Tbf being behind a dominant scrum certainly helps but he makes very few poor decisions and has a good eye for space. Bailey with a nice little break but will rue an easy miss and getting timed out (as have others!)
Thought both Pearson and Underhill had quiet games by their own standards but Pearson just ahead. Underhill will a late flurry of activity like a boxer trying to get the last points on the card in the final round!
Tbh given Bath struggled at scrum time so much I think to be in it with the final moments of the game reflects well on the ability to hang in there. Imagine Russell playing gets you a different result.

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OldMarovian

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joethefanatic
My MotM - Thomas Du Toit, a unit and a half

He's certainly a big beast but seemed to struggle at scrum time somewhat. I was surprised at how dominant Saints scrum was but think their locks were exceptional.
I thought it was a decent game. Leal refereed well.

Enjoyed the head-to-heads. Both Bailey and Smith played well but Smith has a composure about him. Tbf being behind a dominant scrum certainly helps but he makes very few poor decisions and has a good eye for space. Bailey with a nice little break but will rue an easy miss and getting timed out (as have others!)
Thought both Pearson and Underhill had quiet games by their own standards but Pearson just ahead. Underhill will a late flurry of activity like a boxer trying to get the last points on the card in the final round!
Tbh given Bath struggled at scrum time so much I think to be in it with the final moments of the game reflects well on the ability to hang in there. Imagine Russell playing gets you a different result.

Have to disagree OM. When TDT and Beno were on I thought our scrum went well - parity at the very least. The problems came when they were replaced.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

You may well be right joe. That was just my impression from watching earlier and obviously influenced by how the referee penalised the sides. I love the confused look and rueful shake of the heads ALL props have when penalised

Very difficult for our coaches when we have players refusing to listen to the ref and generally making stupid decisions.

All they can really do is drop the culprits for the next game and pick players with greater discipline.

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OutsideBath
Very difficult for our coaches when we have players refusing to listen to the ref and generally making stupid decisions.
All they can really do is drop the culprits for the next game and pick players with greater discipline.

Or they could, maybe, coach them better?

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

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joethefanatic

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OutsideBath
Very difficult for our coaches when we have players refusing to listen to the ref and generally making stupid decisions.
All they can really do is drop the culprits for the next game and pick players with greater discipline.

Or they could, maybe, coach them better?

I suppose they could send them to get their hearing checked, but how do you coach players to stop making stupid decisions. The player concerned is actually making a decision to infringe or back chat the ref.

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OutsideBath

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joethefanatic

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OutsideBath
Very difficult for our coaches when we have players refusing to listen to the ref and generally making stupid decisions.
All they can really do is drop the culprits for the next game and pick players with greater discipline.

Or they could, maybe, coach them better?

I suppose they could send them to get their hearing checked, but how do you coach players to stop making stupid decisions. The player concerned is actually making a decision to infringe or back chat the ref.

Maybe they need a hearing coach, sort of like SCW's vision coach?

I'm with OB, I'm not sure this can be solved with coaching. If I was JvG and the Bath heirarchy I'd be getting a puff piece in a national newspaper with TdT explaining his background and how he came to recognised as a top scrummager in the cauldron that is South African forward play. Start painting the picture that we actually know how to scrummage.

Experienced players shouldn't need to be coached not to give away dumb penalties. They should know better by now.

My concern is if we don't win collisions then our game plan goes back to box kicking, including within the opposition half, and hoping their players mess up. I did hear there is talk of extending players to call a mark anywhere within their own half. I would be in favour of this as the continual box kicking is so tedious.

Wow, so many downbeat comments on this thread. Surely there must be positives given the massive underachievement in recent years? If not guys and gals remember, you don’t have to pay the ridiculous prices Craig demand.s. PRTV is cheap in comparison and you can make an objective opinion on your team by opening both eyes and appreciating that opponents can actually be quite good and deserving of victory

On a Bath forum it's pretty obvious that the focus will be on Bath. Plaudits are given when we win or lose playing well but against Tigers and Saints it's been old failings of poor discipline, silly, avoidable errors and lack of leadership that have cost us. In both threads the consensus was that given those weaknesses we deserved to lose. No one's being disrespectful to the opposition but they've not had to do enough to beat us. We've lost two winnable games through repeated failings which is very frustrating and not surprisingly that's what most Bath fans are focusing on.

Head over parapet time, please don’t shoot me down too much!!

I know it was only 3 points but very surprised the OB Timeout has not been commented on!

After Farrell in the RWC, you would have thought all kickers would ensure that they can complete their kicking process in the shot clock time.
Farrell was extremely extremely close again at the weekend against Tigers!!

As for the scrum picture Props have to listen to the referee!

Not hearing the referee is not an excuse, the referee sets out before the match what he expects at the set piece and there are plenty of opportunities during the game for the front row and Captain to enquire about decisions.

Personally I still think at least one of your props needs to learn how to scrummage at the top level!

Hard to disagree with any of that! Disappointed in Will Stuart recently. Hasn't looked like an international prop for a while now.

Will Stuart is definitely an issue I feel - he just appears totally uninterested at present - he has shown in the past what a destructive player he can be especially in the scrum, I get he is a laid back individual but he just to me does not seem right - I personally believe both Stuart and Sinkler should not have been at the RWC if selection was based on performance, however Borthwick like his predecessor showed that his selection was based on experience and reputation rather than form players.

I personally think we are struggling for a gnarly loose head and have been since Paul James. IMHO Beno’s weakest part of his game is his Scrummaging a bit like Ellis Genge - I have no issues with Du Toit who is already showing how powerful he is both in the loose and in the tight - but he cannot do it all on his own- Think it really showed against Tigers Dunn and Du Toit were powerful and Beno less so and the result is an unbalanced scrum and then that allows an official to make a decision and it always paints a poor picture if your LH is under prsssure. For me the best scrummaging front row for us would be Du Toit, Dunn & Stuart (if his head is right) and if firing that would be a match for any front row in World Rugby.

Genge’s scrummaging was never an issue at Tigers. He is the 1/2 the player he was at Leicester and Bristol obviously don’t have a scrummaging coach!!

Beno I think as an outsider just needs an injury free run.

Internationally for England, TH is one of the problem areas that SB is going to have to resolve.
WS & KS both proved at the RWC they are not currently international THs and with KS rumoured to be off to 🇫🇷 I wouldn’t even select him for the 6Ns.

So that leaves old man Cole for one last 6Ns?, Heyes was next in line before RWC, Painter looking good for Exeter but big step up to international level.

Glad to see I am not the only one infuriated by will stuarts lack of progress.

He was a better player 3 years ago than he is now imho.

Has all the tools to be world class.... but doesn't even stand out for bath over last few seasons.

On the timing out of shot clock the radio commentary suggested an issue with when it started and jvg said it wad one thing he would be discussing with Paul hull.

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charlieboa
On the timing out of shot clock the radio commentary suggested an issue with when it started and jvg said it wad one thing he would be discussing with Paul hull.

I'm not sure of the protocol but the ref blows after the ball is struck, shouldn't it go at zero on the shot clock? Is it visible to all as well?


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

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shipwrecked

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charlieboa
On the timing out of shot clock the radio commentary suggested an issue with when it started and jvg said it wad one thing he would be discussing with Paul hull.

I'm not sure of the protocol but the ref blows after the ball is struck, shouldn't it go at zero on the shot clock? Is it visible to all as well?

Watched the game on catch up and Bailey seemed to complain to the ref that he hadn't given him a ten second notice. Ref replied that he'd told him that he wouldn't as there was a shot- clock clearly visible

I think the shot clock is bad for the game. It just causes unnecessary controversy when a kick is timed out and it allows kickers in some situations to waste time by waiting until the last few seconds before their run up. It won't be long before some crowds will start chanting down the clock

Far better to have a rule that kickers must take the kick without undue delay and for refs to give a 5 second warning if they think the kicker is unnecessarily dragging it out

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SaintsDuncan

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shipwrecked

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charlieboa
On the timing out of shot clock the radio commentary suggested an issue with when it started and jvg said it wad one thing he would be discussing with Paul hull.

I'm not sure of the protocol but the ref blows after the ball is struck, shouldn't it go at zero on the shot clock? Is it visible to all as well?

Watched the game on catch up and Bailey seemed to complain to the ref that he hadn't given him a ten second notice. Ref replied that he'd told him that he wouldn't as there was a shot- clock clearly visible

The ref clearly has never kicked off the tee in his life. The very last thing you want to do is look away from the post in the seconds leading to the kick!

Despite praise for the ref I thought he got some key decisions wrong but it's all water under the bridge now.


Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.

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gaz59
I think the shot clock is bad for the game. It just causes unnecessary controversy when a kick is timed out and it allows kickers in some situations to waste time by waiting until the last few seconds before their run up. It won't be long before some crowds will start chanting down the clock
Far better to have a rule that kickers must take the kick without undue delay and for refs to give a 5 second warning if they think the kicker is unnecessarily dragging it out

I'm not sure how I feel about the refs response but I also think the shot clock isn't great. Why not just have an equivalent of 'use it' or follow the NFLs lead and march them back if the timer expires.

Can't see a few extra seconds being spent over kicks really being that crucial when compared with the continual re-setting of scrums or protection of the ball around rucks during a protracted exchange of box kicks. As sw says, tricky for a kicker to focus on his kick and watch a clock. If a kicker takes an eternity the crowd usually let's them know they need to get on with it.

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SaintsDuncan
Watched the game on catch up and Bailey seemed to complain to the ref that he hadn't given him a ten second notice. Ref replied that he'd told him that he wouldn't as there was a shot- clock clearly visible

It was interesting that later in the game Leal said to him words to the effect of "are you going to use the clock or should I give you a warning at 10/15 seconds?"
I actually think the shot clock is a good idea but think you probably need a standard and for me that should be the referee tells you when you have ten seconds regardless of where the clock is. For some players that might be a distraction but it's still probably better than losing your time and getting counted out.

The delicious irony of a person who berated Farrell for getting counted out (with no shot clock visible or warning) now defending Bailey for the same

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OldMarovian

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SaintsDuncan
Watched the game on catch up and Bailey seemed to complain to the ref that he hadn't given him a ten second notice. Ref replied that he'd told him that he wouldn't as there was a shot- clock clearly visible

It was interesting that later in the game Leal said to him words to the effect of "are you going to use the clock or should I give you a warning at 10/15 seconds?"
I actually think the shot clock is a good idea but think you probably need a standard and for me that should be the referee tells you when you have ten seconds regardless of where the clock is. For some players that might be a distraction but it's still probably better than losing your time and getting counted out.

The delicious irony of a person who berated Farrell for getting counted out (with no shot clock visible or warning) now defending Bailey for the same

I think that was said to Ben Spencer not Bailey. Who declined the warning.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Was it joe? I missed that. Still, good to have the option.

My recollection of the game on tv was the ref told OB that it had been agreed before the game that he wouldn't give a shot clock warning and therefore did not. Later in the game, he asked if we wanted a warning, presumably because of the first time out. Seems entirely reasonable to me.

Whether whoever had agreed with the ref that we weren't going to have shot clock warnings, passed that onto OB is a different question.

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charlieboa
Glad to see I am not the only one infuriated by will stuarts lack of progress.
He was a better player 3 years ago than he is now imho.

Has all the tools to be world class.... but doesn't even stand out for bath over last few seasons.
.

Is that because of his performances or because of how little we’ve seen of him. Granted he did not have a great World Cup but it was only a few months ago at the end of the season when the praises were singing in for the Beno Dunn Stuart front three which was tearing scrums apart and was the best in the league by the end of the season.

His carrying whenever he plays is a massive massive bonus and always stands out. I’ve no doubt in a few weeks he’ll be back to showing how good he is.

Agree. I think Will Stuart and Beno were the reason we won at Kingsholm last year.

There carrying was excellent constantly getting over the gain line and putting Glos on the back foot and we destroyed their scrum.

Yes, whilst Stuart hasn’t been great of late, he’s had a pretty disjointed few months, with little game time and I’d imagine a bag load of conditioning etc. I’m hoping he’ll hit his straps again if he can string together a few months of consistent games and live scrummaging.

…starting tonight. No VRR for Glos is a bonus for us, and so on the firm pitch, I’d hope he and Obano really attack. Great to have TDT to bring off the bench, but hope Stuart really steps up tonight. Big game for him, as well as a few other big name players.

2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper

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HK890

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charlieboa
Glad to see I am not the only one infuriated by will stuarts lack of progress.
He was a better player 3 years ago than he is now imho.

Has all the tools to be world class.... but doesn't even stand out for bath over last few seasons.
.

Is that because of his performances or because of how little we’ve seen of him. Granted he did not have a great World Cup but it was only a few months ago at the end of the season when the praises were singing in for the Beno Dunn Stuart front three which was tearing scrums apart and was the best in the league by the end of the season.

His carrying whenever he plays is a massive massive bonus and always stands out. I’ve no doubt in a few weeks he’ll be back to showing how good he is.

Feels like he has been v hit and miss to me over the last few seasons. To be fair I think he just needs an injury free run.

I hold him to exceptionally high standards as like matt proudfoot I think he has the potential to be world class.

He should be englands best tighthead comfortably by this stage of his career given he has everything you could ever want in a prop (as you say v good athlete/handler/carrier)..... but was third choice.

I do think he will come good this eve and prove a point after last week- fingers crossed