“FOR EVERY ACTION, THERE IS AN EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION”B

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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:06:08:21:25 by hasta.

Thanks Devonport Lad

Best to look ahead to how we recover rather than dwell upon the ills of last week. I expect a few of your suggested changes may be chosen. Hopefully one of Ewels or Richards will be fit to imptove the lineout.

PG

Good report....very tricky to pick a team this week.....so best left to JVG et al!

Just about got over Saturday which was incredibly disappointing. Not least of all for the incoming from all my Saints, Tigers, Exeter and Quins friends!!!

As I said on the match thread how the Squad respond to this is the real test of their character.

Bath by 12!!!!!

I'd really like to see Redpath on the team sheet this week. His brand of abrasive midfield glue was very much missing last weekend.

Nice preview DL, tees it up nicely.

Yes, so much discussion already but must agree with above - missed Cam's defensive nous. Before Max announced himself, he and OL had a great partnership and their game's really seemed to complimented one another's. You'd hope that's the combo vs Exe.

If Horse is set to return then that's massive. Our kick-chase game feels more like a liability than an asset without him in the team.

Also a nod to Charlie Ewels - pre JvG I wasn't sure what made him an international. Fast forward a couple of seasons and just look at how different our pack performs without him in it. Hopefully antibiotics have worked their magic!

Couldn't agree more about Ewels – pick any cliche you like to describe his importance to the side, but he is a leader on the field and scraps until the final whistle every time. I feel his red cards for England have tainted his reputation somewhat (and unfairly IMHO).

A guess:-

Carreras
Cokanasiga
Lawrence
Redpath
Muir

Finn
Spencer

Obano
Frost
Sela
Ewels
Molony
Hill
Pepper
Alfie

Kepu, FVW, TDT, Roux, Underhill, TCS, Butt, Arundell

Based on Ojomoh, Richards N/A and Dunn, Reid, TdG rested.

As an outsider I would question Ewels involvement with England, especially with his 🟥, but last 12 months have changed my opinions of him.

I would go with that team selection

Still think Finn should be dropped to the bench and not convinced OL has earned his place in the team either. Both were too far below their standard last Saturday.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Still think Finn should be dropped to the bench and not convinced OL has earned his place in the team either. Both were too far below their standard last Saturday.

One has paid a lot of rugby and has little to prove. Perhaps a rest.
The other also has nothing to prove after injury but perhaps needs a chance to regain form through game time.

Rotation of the squad is very different to fear of being dropped if you have a bad game. Rest can be positive; fear is toxic.

I’d play Santi at 10 with Henry at full back. Finn on the bench as we don’t have another 10 cover option, but with intention to protect him for Europe.

As an aside, does anyone know when Exeter switched their attention to acquiring Kiwi/Aussie talent? Counted a dozen or so when looking through their squad.

Seems to be working well for them, just wondered if anyone had heard Baxter etc talking about recruiting from that part of the world?

Not quite Sale's collection of Saffas under Diamond a few years ago but must be quite unique to the Prem.

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
I would go with that team selection

So would I, but would first check if Ollie's form last Saturday was due to being brought back too soon. Could swap him and Butt round-Butt has had few opportunities, but not so far had a bad game this season.

PG

Sio
İkitau
Hooper
Roots x 2
Heaven
JIS
Tua

Barfboy, any I have missed?

Tuima born in Fiji, moved to England when he was 4.

I think I'd put myself in Exeter's shoes and ask who I'd LEAST like to see in the Bath 10 and 13 shirts, and the answer is Finn and Ollie. Finn has just had a holiday and Ollie is only just back from injury. I'd start them both, and they can go and prove why they're both top class internationals.

I still think we should be prioritising the league over Europe, especially now we've lost a couple of games to our rivals, so I don't want to rest players for league matches, especially at home with the table so congested. We need to go all out for a statement performance and the 5 points on Saturday, so I'd go Cup Final XV, regardless of form or who dropped what balls 1m from the line last week! I don't question this squad's desire or anything like that- last week was just a bit of a nightmare all round, mostly due to the oppo running red hot. Let our best players get it out of their systems v Exe.

Obano Dunn Sela Roux Ewels Hill Pepper Alfie
Spencer Russell Arundell Redpath Lawrence JCok TDG (if not fit Santi)
Frost VV TDT Maloney Unders TCS Santi Reid

2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper

Injury updates:-
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]#

No Ojomoh, TdG, Ewels or Richards.

Possibly Muir, Alfie & Van Der Linde.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:30:17:15:53 by tigersimon.

Ted Hill as 2nd row cover?
Plenty of back row options Bayliss, Staddon, Green

Or do you still have players on-loan at Worcester, that you recall?

Well those injuries decide a few things....

No luck with injuries this season.. ☹️

Given Muir was warming up before the Saints game I reckon that’s JvG being a bit coy and the Horse is ready to leave the stable.

Hill covering second row is fine in theory but it’s pretty restrictive when he’s all we have. He sort of has to be on the bench as an hour running around at 6 before 20mins scrumming and mauling is probably going to end badly one way or another.

Exeter rarely have much jackal threat so would balance the team to keep 2/3 fetchers on the pitch for the whole game. (As ever) need to kick well and pressure Hodge into some bad and avoid given the wings open field.

Obano
Dunn
Sela
Roux
Molony
Pepper
Reid
Barbeary
Spencer
Russell
Muir
Redpath
Lawrence
Cokanasiga
Carreras

Frost / Kepu
van Wyk
du Toit
Hill
Underhill
TCS / BvL
Hennessy / Butt
Green



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:31:10:36:07 by theredseat.

Stuart, Ojomoh, TdG, Ewels, Richards, Coetzee, Donaghue, Sam Harris.

I would say 8 is under the average number of injuries in a squad.

I think we need to be very careful about the Chiefs. They are not the team of last season. The 2 new Aussies have helped a lot but the major reason for me is the startling growth of Harvey Skinner at 10. He absolutely owned Faz Jr in their Sarries game and that physical aggression has brought confidence and authority to his game which had been lacking. Len Ikitau is a big loss but Skinner runs that team.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

JtF,

Varney is probably the biggest reason for Chiefs improvement, which then helps Skinner’s game!

Muir, Alfie & Van Der Linde were all warming up before the last match, hopefully they come through this week ok and challenge for inclusion to give some new options.

Ted as second row cover seems likely and possibly he could spend more time there next season if Quinn doesn’t renew. That could also play into his England ambitions as they seem to like him there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:30:19:48:41 by dcsh.

Quote:

joethefanatic
I think we need to be very careful about the Chiefs. They are not the team of last season.

Agreed – they also have the tightest defence so far in the league, conceding just 17 points per game and with only 19 tries against.

An updated guess after injury update:-

Carreras
Cokanasiga
Lawrence
Redpath
Muir

Finn
Spencer

Obano
Frost
Sela
Roux
Molony
Bayliss
Pepper
Alfie

Kepu, FVW, TDT, Hill, Underhill, VDL, Butt, Arundell

My only concern would be 8 cover and if Alfie could go 80?
So either 6:2 bench or Reid in the squad?

Shame richards is out, I would have started him this week.

I would go:

Carreras
Big joe
Lawrence
Redpath
Muir
Finn
Spencer

Beno
Frost
Sela
Roux
Malony
Hill
Pepper
Green

Bench: kepu, fvw, tdt, underhill, tcs, butt, arundell, alfie

Give dunn, bayliss and reid a rest as they have played a lot.

Quote:

dcsh
Muir, Alfie & Van Der Linde were all warming up before the last match, hopefully they come through this week ok and challenge for inclusion to give some new options.
Ted as second row cover seems likely and possibly he could spend more time there next season if Quinn doesn’t renew. That could also play into his England ambitions as they seem to like him there.

So also was Enoch Opoku-Gyamfi, 2nd row in Academy who was capped by Italy in Autumn. First time I've seen him involved in match day so seems to be getting experience and wonder if he'll be loaned out soon.

Quote:

tigersimon
Ted Hill as 2nd row cover?
Plenty of back row options Bayliss, Staddon, Green

Or do you still have players on-loan at Worcester, that you recall?

Will Jeanes listed in Worcester Warriors team at 5 last week and first time he'd been involved with them for a while. Harvey cuckoo is starting for Scarlets in New Years Day fixture also at 5.

And the officials are:

Bath Rugby v Exeter Chiefs

Referee: Luke Pearce
ARs: Anthony Woodthorpe & Gareth Holsgrove
TMO: Dean Richards

Quote:

Devonport Lad
And the officials are:
Bath Rugby v Exeter Chiefs

Referee: Luke Pearce
ARs: Anthony Woodthorpe & Gareth Holsgrove
TMO: Dean Richards

I like Pearce cos the game is faster but, my word, he does talk a lot.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

CM-K was quite loquacious last week but it can be helpful to understand the ref's thinking. Bit of a say what you see ref, presumably for the review as it's often when there's nobody near enough to hear.

Quote:

joethefanatic

Quote:

Devonport Lad
And the officials are:
Bath Rugby v Exeter Chiefs

Referee: Luke Pearce
ARs: Anthony Woodthorpe & Gareth Holsgrove
TMO: Dean Richards

I like Pearce cos the game is faster but, my word, he does talk a lot.

He’s generally a good communicator and lets the game flow which is a good thing for fans, especially as it’s going to be pretty cold. Hopefully no excessive use of the TMO like we suffered in the Saints game.

Likes a quick ruck & a quick game. Sharp to penalise holding on and tough on offside.

One of our best refs IMO.

PG

Good ref tho not sure he is always a great fit for us in what his focus areas are/aren't but we need to try and remove the officials from the outcome as much as possible.

Imagine we will be extremely motivated in response to last weekend and I am hopeful despite exeterz improvements.

Whats the weather/ forecast like? Getting the tent and blowers set up?

Forecast looks cold (3 degrees) and dry according to the Met office.

Hope for a reaction to last week and look to see us dominate some early tackles. You feel like Cam Redpath is ideal on a cold day at the office.

We must look to be less reactive to what Exeter play and impose our own game plan on them (something that was missing from Saints for various reasons). Slade will cause havoc if given enough time!

Let’s hope for a good one!

Bath Rugby: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Vilikesa Sela, 4 Enoch Opoku-Gyamfi (debut), 5 Ross Molony, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Guy Pepper, 8 Alfie Barbeary, 9 Ben Spencer ©, 10 Finn Russell, 11 Will Muir, 12 Cameron Redpath, 13 Ollie Lawrence (50), 14 Henry Arundell, 15 Santi Carreras

Replacements: 16 Kepu Tuipulotu, 17 Scott Kirk, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Quinn Roux, 20 Sam Underhill, 21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 Louie Hennessey, 23 Arthur Green

Wow hadn't expected Enoch to start. Some big rotation and good chances for younger players.

Team:

Bath Rugby: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Vilikesa Sela, 4 Enoch Opoku-Gyamfi (debut), 5 Ross Molony, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Guy Pepper, 8 Alfie Barbeary, 9 Ben Spencer ©, 10 Finn Russell, 11 Will Muir, 12 Cameron Redpath, 13 Ollie Lawrence (50), 14 Henry Arundell, 15 Santi Carreras

Replacements: 16 Kepu Tuipulotu, 17 Scott Kirk, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Quinn Roux, 20 Sam Underhill, 21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 Louie Hennessey, 23 Arthur Green

PG

And the Chiefs:

Exeter Chiefs: 15 Olly Woodburn, 14 Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, 13 Henry Slade, 12 Will Rigg, 11 Campbell Ridl, 10 Harvey Skinner, 9 Stephen Varney; 1 Scott Sio, 2 Joseph Dweba, 3 Bachuki Tchumbadze, 4 Dafydd Jenkins (c), 5 Andrea Zambonin, 6 Tom Hooper, 7 Ethan Roots, 8 Greg Fisilau

Replacements: 16 Jack Yeandle, 17 Will Goodrick-Clarke, 18 Jimmy Roots, 19 Rusi Tuima, 20 Kane James, 21 Charlie Chapman, 22 Will Haydon-Wood, 23 Dan John

PG

Interesting lock pick with Gyamfi starting and Roux on the bench. Noticed Cuckson started (and got sin binned) for Scarlets yesterday. So has Gyamfi jumped over Will Jeanes too? Hope he is in good shape, he’s got a massive frame.

Exeter look full noise. Have been really impressed with Woodburn at full back in last few games, certainly under high ball and attacking. Think his kicking game could be tested though.

Looking forward to seeing EOG in action. Extra benefits of allowing Hill to start and be a line out option as can’t imagine Enoch is going to get lifted very much.

Barbeary v Fisilau and interesting sub plot

Interesting that Opoku-Gyamfi gets the debut rather than bringing back one of the loan players, hope he goes well. I've not seen him play yet, it will be interesting to see how he uses his size.
There is certainly a good core of young players going through the system at Bath.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:02:12:14:06 by dcsh.

Apart from the two academy picks, a very strong lineup. Lets hope Horse hits the ground galloping and Lawrence has shaken off the cobwebs. Really hope they go well but both EOG & Sela starting makes me worry, particularly at set-piece time.

Any thoughts on the Exeter lineup? The Tribe consensus seems to be for a narrow home win. I'd be happy with that!

BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
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2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni
2020/21 Will Stuart

Some fascinating calls from JvG. Sela again given the nod and so, so good to see Horse back. Redpath too. Back row looks very nicely balanced too.

EOG made debut for Country before Club - that doesn't happen every day. Last player (for us) to do that was one Olly Barkley, IIRC. Excited to see how he goes against a big old Exeter pack.

Feel like Roux/Underhill/TdT/Kepu/Green off the bench could be enough to seal it but I just want to see a performance after last week. Let's play some rugby and right some wrongs!

I feel like Gyamfi will go for 40 mins, and that's it

He's a big unit, and this is probably the highest level he'll have ever played at (no disrespect to Chile, and it was only a 5 or so minute cameo)

Great to have Muir back. I suspect we might have had more success from our kick-chase game in recent months had he been on the pitch



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:02:12:55:18 by A.M 180.

Quote:

joethefanatic

Quote:

Devonport Lad
And the officials are:
Bath Rugby v Exeter Chiefs

Referee: Luke Pearce
ARs: Anthony Woodthorpe & Gareth Holsgrove
TMO: Dean Richards

I like Pearce cos the game is faster but, my word, he does talk a lot.

My completely subjective opinion is that, out of all the prem referees, we struggle most with Maxwell-Keys and Pearce as they tend to favour attack at the breakdown.

Interesting to see EOG starting - big man with a big reputation. I wonder if we’ve identified some sort of weakness in the Exeter pack that allows us to bring in some less battle-tested players?

It’s exciting, and I love that backrow so think it’ll be a good game. I’m in high spirits - Would love a home win to start 2026 off right!

Most disappointing aspect for me last week, was how the pack performed - the Saints pack is honest but nothing special, but they more than held their own in both set piece and the loose and deserve a lot of credit.
This gave their backs the space and time to take us apart as they've done to other teams in the past. I turned up on Sat expecting predicting a bout of brutal 10 man rugby last week for the first 50 mins, to create some space later on, but we came a poor second in all areas.
So this week, they need to get on top of (whats on paper), an even better pack. Hoping for the right reaction ....!

Yes Pearce is dead set on rewarding the team in possession and keeping the game moving ie few jackal pens. Glad we’ve gone with Hill and Pepper (who is turning into a monster 6.5). A few years ago he’d have been the worst ref versus Exe back when they managed to win territory and then keep the ball so effectively with their simple game plan (with a bit of sealing off, but those in glasshouses etc).

Tomorrow, I think he’s better suited for us as we COULD have the dominant pack and half backs, so SHOULD win the territory battle. Having said that, Exe have been v good of late, and full of confidence, so we’d ideally get on the board and ahead early doors.

It’d be great to see a dominant 60-80 minute performance. Haven’t seen one in a while. Must say, without VV and Stuart and some 2Rs, the Bath Bomb looks a lot less potent. But hopefully we’ll have enough quality from the off to not need it. Here’s desperately hoping…

Bath by 8. Come on you Bath.

2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper

Decent enough team, let’s hope the real Bath turn up this week though and not last week’s lot. Must admit after last week’s performance thought Lawrence might have been replaced by Butt.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Decent enough team, let’s hope the real Bath turn up this week though and not last week’s lot. Must admit after last week’s performance thought Lawrence might have been replaced by Butt.

Yes, I too. Has he recovered his form in one week I wonder.

Think the second row battle is very intriguing.
Daf & Zambonin have been performing very well for Exeter.

Interesting that Hennessey is selected ahead of Butt again.

After last week’s game has this week become a must win ?

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Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
After last week’s game has this week become a must win ?

In our skittles team, such games are referred to as 'pivotal'.

Quote:

Mike the Taxi

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
After last week’s game has this week become a must win ?

In our skittles team, such games are referred to as 'pivotal'.

It’s certainly that !

Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

I recall that some were almost expecting us to loose against Saracens & even accepting it as an acceptable away loss. The same view was taken previously at Leicester which we did narrowly loose. Now it is being said that this is a must win game. It’s interesting how views change!

Quote:

Old Bath Tub
After last week’s game has this week become a must win ?

Given that Bris have just gone top and pushed us to 4th we definitely need a good one.

Really interesting selection.

Feels we are being v strategic in pushing the squad forward.

The likes of kepu, sela, green, and hennessey were v fringe last season and more regular this.

Maybe the likes of kirk and gyamfi are a few of the next crop they want to give the occasional chance to this season.

Could have stated roux or played hill at lock but haven't. As per above I also expect him to go for 40 mins.

Could have switched tdt to loosehead and played 2 of sela/ griffin/ verden but haven't and giving kirk a go.

Exciting.

Have Chiefs made any changes from Sunday? Big risk on a 6 day turnaround after a tough game.

It does feel like this is going to be a big old scrap upfront and it's exciting to see some fresh and hopefully hungry blood in the pack. That said, the single most important thing for me is that Finn puts his stamp on this one after a low key performance last week.

PS Glad to see Lawrence selected again – if you don't give players a chance to swiftly put things right they can lose confidence and struggle to regain form.

Let’s hope that JvG has got those selections right. He hadn’t been questioned much at all prior to last Saturday. These are situations where DOR’s enhance or harm their reputations. So much will depend on that 2nd row functioning effectively . Currently we are probably the lowest we have been in 2/3 years & could be on the cusp of falling back into the pack - Toulon, then Saints, what next? We have to win!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:03:00:47:27 by Bath Hammer.

Agree it’s going to be a big game to decide what the season looks like. I still feel positive but the way the table is shaking out, some teams risk being cut adrift if results don’t pan out.

[www.oddschecker.com]

Bath odds on with the bookies and they look v generous given each team's performance last week. I don't have a good feeling about the game today and I haven't felt that way for a long time.

The only game I’ve felt truly horribly sick to my stomach nervous about was semi final vs Bristol. Win or lose today we will be fine. Never too high, never too low!

Quote:

BathRob
The only game I’ve felt truly horribly sick to my stomach nervous about was semi final vs Bristol. Win or lose today we will be fine. Never too high, never too low!

Lose today and we could be outside the top 4 Sunday evening so that would be pretty low.

I still can’t forget last Saturday’s horror show against a 2nd string Saints. Haven’t felt like that since the Hooper era that was devoid of tactics and ideas.

Surely we can’t play that bad again?

Difficult to question JvG but I personally would have dropped Lawrence and brought in Butt who never lets us down.

Quote:

BathRob
Win or lose today we will be fine. Never too high, never too low!

I don’t embrace that view I’m afraid & other clubs certainly won’t 😳

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

BathRob
The only game I’ve felt truly horribly sick to my stomach nervous about was semi final vs Bristol. Win or lose today we will be fine. Never too high, never too low!

Lose today and we could be outside the top 4 Sunday evening so that would be pretty low.

In last night's post [Bris] match comments Ugo stated a team that is outside the Top 4 after R9 will not make the Top at the end of the season. I'm with MtT, it's a pivotal match for us today. In all honesty I can't see us winning the big cup this year so The Prem is the big prize. COYB!

Quote:

Treble

Quote:

OutsideBath

Quote:

BathRob
The only game I’ve felt truly horribly sick to my stomach nervous about was semi final vs Bristol. Win or lose today we will be fine. Never too high, never too low!

Lose today and we could be outside the top 4 Sunday evening so that would be pretty low.

In last night's post [Bris] match comments Ugo stated a team that is outside the Top 4 after R9 will not make the Top at the end of the season. I'm with MtT, it's a pivotal match for us today. In all honesty I can't see us winning the big cup this year so The Prem is the big prize. COYB!

I agree with your view on the big cup, I could live with letting Europe go to get our title defence back on track.

Lose today and we won’t finish top 2.

Really don’t want us to have the sort of substandard title defence Saints had.

We've seen plenty of evidence in the last 18 months or so of the types of teams and game plans that can beat us, and it's the style of fast, offloading rugby Bristol, Northampton, Toulouse and Bordeaux specialise in. On that basis it's hard to imagine us winning the big cup, so I'd also like to see us focus on defending the Prem.

Hasn't taken a huge amount to knock people's confidence- dangerously used to playing well and winning I guess and a wobble gets in our heads.

I think we are fine, reckon we will get top 4 in the ptem irrespective of what happens today and think we will get to knock out stages of night cup.

For me the loss of will stuart may scupper any serious plans of a double but we still have an amazing squad that should compete.

Jvg playing the long game by rotating heavily and exposing a lot of the squad to big games. Wouldnt surprise me if the opposite approach from exeter becomes their downfall. It's already helped the likes of kepu/ sela/richards/ staddon/ green/ donoghue/ hennessey to become trusted members of the squad.

If we can add a few more solid options like kirk and gyamfi it can only stand us in good stead.

You’re right Charlie Exeter have the same starting 15 from last week on a 6 day turnaround

Widcombe Garçon

Quote:

Widcombe boy
You’re right Charlie Exeter have the same starting 15 from last week on a 6 day turnaround

Thanks for confirming WB. Bench looks similar as well.

Could work for them today I guess (tho I have my doubts) burt won't work over the season/ over a few seasons.

Jvg is being brave and strategic I think- may backfire but I am enjoying the approach

Good preview DL. Thank you. Very much looking forward to seeing Opoku-Gyamfi play and so good to see Horse back. Hat-trick in Horse Corner please. The Lawrence decision is correct to my mind. He is a world class player. Last week's horror show was an aberration. Let him get out there and show what he can do.

Utterly ruthless in the first 20, beyond frustrated at our discipline this season, to give away a soft penalty after Exeter score immediately giving them another easy entry and a second score is utterly maddening

I can’t believe discipline isn’t a focus each week so why is the team so stubbornly unable to improve it?

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”

Watching live in Honolulu. Well, we're good against 14. But we'll lose if we don't switch back on PDQ. It seems strange to say it but really, really need to score first in the second half.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

And yet another brain dead penalty when Exeter going nowhere fast - it’s ridiculous

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”

Should really have had a couple more scores

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”

We seem determined to let Exeter into this match

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”

Quote:

Toast and Marmite
We seem determined to let Exeter into this match

We've already done that. The question is can we hold our nerve?

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

What are we doing

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”

Seems pretty bad listening to the second half on the radio. Loads of possession for Bath, but mistake after mistake. Eventually Exeter get some ball, immediately get a penalty, into the corner, more penalties and a try. No problem at all.

What is wrong with us…

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”

I need a very large whiskey- what an absolutely amazing set of phases at the end.

Nowhere near our best but found what was needed when it mattered

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”

Barbeary absolutely deserved MOTM, 15 carries and super abrasive in the carry

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”

Far, far, far too many penalties given away which let exeter back in .
Then a brilliant set of 38, yes 38 (according to Ugo) phases to steal it back at the death.

Radio Bris commentators DO read 'Ere! One of them just described the first Bath try as 'Pivotal'!

A 15 v 15 game would have been a different result, my nerves shredded after our final drive for 30 phases.

Just watched the match live. Exeter were comfortably the better team and should be proud of their efforts. Let's be clear, if we play like this any more, we will not only not be champions, we won't make the playoffs. We played well against 14 and then just fell off a cliff. That HAS to be eradicated from our game PDQ. We didn't do it last year and I don't know what's changed but we're believing our own publicity and no one else does. Dumb penalties, an inability to actually complete a freaking tackle and bone headed one man pick-and-goes that just end in turnovers. The lack of on-field leadership or even just basic rugby nous is alarming. Really annoyed.

My MotM - Rollover. No one deserved it.

A word for the 3rd team on the pitch. Excellent. Pearce may talk a lot but he gets things right and he does it quickly. Also, his obvious concern for the well being of the players does him great credit.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

That was a horrible watch, first 20 and last 2 minutes aside.

There seemed to be a lot of poor decision making eg Carreras near the end trying to run it out of the 22 and getting held up, given possession back again deep in our half. Shortly after they score. Roux smashing into a ruck and conceding a pen against Muir - if he'd left it alone, no pen.

When Exeter were going for their third/fourth tries I'd pretty much lost expectation of keeping them out, was just hoping we could push them wide enough for a tough conversion.

Can't knock a win against a really good team but so much of that was dispiriting.

Bit of a false game that and impossible to say what would have happened without the red card.

We burnt a lot of energy building up that 26-point lead and it was inevitable Exeter would come back and play like they had nothing to lose. I'm a little surprised we were able to get the winning score given the momentum swing, so that desire to scrap is a real positive we can take from the game.

Still plenty of things we need to sort out: silly penalties, aimlessly kicking the ball away when our initial attack breaks down, cohesion in the backline and carriers getting isolated.

Quote:

JK7

There seemed to be a lot of poor decision making eg Carreras near the end trying to run it out of the 22 and getting held up, given possession back again deep in our half.

The Bath decision-making over the last few matches has been baffling. On that particular example, why was he running straight into contact when his main strength has been bamboozling defenders on the outside?

Lots of very silly penalties as well. Surprised we didn't get a card to be honest.

(That said, lots of the traditional Exeter flopping all over the place preventing competition for the ball at the ruck...)

And although it came off, I don't know why we decided to start a pick and go game from outside the 22? (Perhaps playing for an Exe penalty?)

Quote:

Mini Maximus
Bit of a false game that and impossible to say what would have happened without the red card.
We burnt a lot of energy building up that 26-point lead and it was inevitable Exeter would come back and play like they had nothing to lose. I'm a little surprised we were able to get the winning score given the momentum swing, so that desire to scrap is a real positive we can take from the game.

Still plenty of things we need to sort out: silly penalties, aimlessly kicking the ball away when our initial attack breaks down, cohesion in the backline and carriers getting isolated.

Agree with this - much more balanced than a lot of doom mongers on here.

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”

Quote:

joethefanatic
The lack of on-field leadership or even just basic rugby nous is alarming

This is where we're really missing Ewels IMHO.

Lots of silly penalties but in fairness, against anyone other than Slade and they’re +10m for the line outs.

So that was certainly… something. The grit at the end was outstanding. All we needed was the win and we got it. Big Prem break now, plenty of time to get back in the swing of things.

Word again for Hennessy, when he came on for Arundel he looked like a regular which is a high compliment.

Happy Saturday all, the negative (plenty of them) can wait until Monday for me!

Quote:

SJS
And although it came off, I don't know why we decided to start a pick and go game from outside the 22? (Perhaps playing for an Exe penalty?)

Credit to the lads for keeping their composure and not making a mistake or conceding a turnover, but a drop goal could have won us the game sooner and it's not a terrible idea to practice them in match conditions (I know Finn doesn't like them).

Letting them back into it was frustrating, but a really epic set at the end to get the win. Santi definitely needs some time to settle it properly. Discipline is a real problem.

But. There were a lot of youngsters out there who will benefit from the experience. I don't expect a bunch of them in the 23 come the sharp end of the season, but it's good rotation and good squad development.

Well battled by Bath at the end.

Think the players were as tense as the crowd at times in the second half.

Good win to take into the break from the Premiership

Obviously it worked out in the end but why did we never look like going for a drop goal at the death? We could so easily have turned the ball over and drops don't come much easier than the set up we had there - have to think that for a world class 10, it should be a gimme. There was no bonus point to worry about.

Drop goal would have allowed the game to restart.

Got out of jail.

Similar story to recent weeks: too many penalties, too many first up tackles missed or at messy giving up metres. Rehashing the other thread but attacking problems remain. Only fired against 14, several times Russell took into contact when the options he wanted weren’t there and Carreras made some real poor decisions towards the end.

EOG didn’t look out of place, Sela stood up well and great to have Muir back and looking dangerous but thought Hill and Barbeary were comfortably our best two performers

Luke Pearce and team all excellent



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:03:17:09:34 by theredseat.

Quote:

JK7
Obviously it worked out in the end but why did we never look like going for a drop goal at the death? We could so easily have turned the ball over and drops don't come much easier than the set up we had there - have to think that for a world class 10, it should be a gimme. There was no bonus point to worry about.

Backed themselves to get over with knowledge that Saints had to be squeaky clean.

Even if we score the DG that gives Exeter a restart, whereas with a try we can run clock down. Plus it might have been missed!

’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”

Yikes - but at this stage of the season given our form, I will happily take 5 points.

- Our kick/chase looks so much better with Muir
- Without Ewels we have no lineout game and never compete
- Backs start to look like they might click soon - still not quite getting there and Santi still looks like he isn't sure how to add his skill set but we looked more dynamic.
- Where has our penalty disciplie gone and we seem to lose the breakdown penalty battle every game .
- Thought Luke Pearce reffed well but would like to see sealing off more strictly dealt with as it can almost be impossible to compete on breakdowns
- Exeter fitness and defence with 15 was exceptional ... Baxter has done a stunning job this year

On balance I'd rather risk restarting with a lead than keep playing level, if the drop goal is so 'easy' (they're never 100% but we were on their line between the posts).

If that performance hadn't come directly after the last one I'd be feeling more upbeat but 15 on 15, we were so clearly second best, again, at home.

I'll try to cheer up!

Quote:

Never In Doubt
- Without Ewels we have no lineout game and never compete

Not sure if it’s timing or lack of athleticism but it often seems quite laboured getting Molony up in the air. Hill and Pepper just seem to get much higher and more controlled

Quote:

JK7
On balance I'd rather risk restarting with a lead than keep playing level, if the drop goal is so 'easy' (they're never 100% but we were on their line between the posts).
If that performance hadn't come directly after the last one I'd be feeling more upbeat but 15 on 15, we were so clearly second best, again, at home.

I'll try to cheer up!

After the depressing result last week I’d have taken a 3-0 win so to get a TBP win is fantastic.

One of those days where the performance is irrelevant and only the result matters.

We can pick apart the performance another day.

Quote:

hasta
Drop goal would have allowed the game to restart.

Yep - Finn used up most of the minute discussing with Pearce when he could kick so it didn't restart!

It was great to hear the Rec roaring at the sharp end of the match

Only caught the last 5 minutes so don't have the full picture, and looking at the overview isn't the prettiest reading, but fully agree this is one where the result matters more than the performance.

To compete on two fronts you need the cushion in the league and we're still on a solid enough track for that. That could easily have swung the other way with a draw or a loss.

Weird game! Not sure I really enjoyed it although certainly the last attack was good. Thought Gyamfi was tremendous on his debut - really seemed to push them back in defence and looked comfortable with ball in hand.

I’d imagine that getting a 5 point win but with plenty to work on makes for a more positive training week as we go into Europe.

JK,

Did you see the DG Ford fluffed yesterday evening?
Meat and drink for Ford but he missed it and it was a far less pressure situation.

I think we sometimes lose sight on this board about other teams quality - Exeter are a quality side this year and have only lost once previously. Sometimes it’s not necessarily about us being poor and more about the other teams being good!

JK - have you ever tried a DK in a match - they are far from a certain 3 points, even with the likes of George Ford.

Simon - no, not seen that. I had Ford in mind when I was yelling at the TV, thinking there's no chance he'd have passed up the opportunity.

I do really appreciate that they aren't easy but from our position on the pitch I would hope that pretty much any professional 10 would have made it.

Significantly easier that Jonny's in 2003, and with far less pressure. I only draw the comparison as I'd put Finn in that same world class bracket and have no doubt he would have made if that had been the decision. No option is going to guarantee success but you tend to play the odds and that to my mind was the way to go. Wonder what we'd have done if it was a final?

Quote:

JK7
Significantly easier that Jonny's in 2003, and with far less pressure. I only draw the comparison as I'd put Finn in that same world class bracket and have no doubt he would have made if that had been the decision. No option is going to guarantee success but you tend to play the odds and that to my mind was the way to go. Wonder what we'd have done if it was a final?

Hard to say where the odds are these days, but it will have of course been analysed.

Quote:

JK7
Simon - no, not seen that. I had Ford in mind when I was yelling at the TV, thinking there's no chance he'd have passed up the opportunity.
I do really appreciate that they aren't easy but from our position on the pitch I would hope that pretty much any professional 10 would have made it.

Significantly easier that Jonny's in 2003, and with far less pressure. I only draw the comparison as I'd put Finn in that same world class bracket and have no doubt he would have made if that had been the decision. No option is going to guarantee success but you tend to play the odds and that to my mind was the way to go. Wonder what we'd have done if it was a final?

Finn Russell has scored ONE drop goal in his whole career! So it is absolutely no surprise that he didn’t go of one today when our forwards have been so dominant with pick and drives.
[all.rugby]

We did appear to have penalty advantage. Then went through 38 phases to score a try and close out the game.

Without a DG expert the DG plan would have been a major risk.

PG

Quote:

BathRob
I think we sometimes lose sight on this board about other teams quality - Exeter are a quality side this year and have only lost once previously. Sometimes it’s not necessarily about us being poor and more about the other teams being good!

I do agree with this to some extent, but as the team that won the league comfortably (and then won the play-offs too) last year, and as the team that added absolute quality players in Carreras and Arundell to an already top-drawer squad, I think we look a considerable way off the level of last year ,and less than the sum of our parts at present.

I know no two seasons are the same, but I would have liked us to at least have maintained the standard of last year - the incisive attack when it's on, the pinpoint kicking when it's not, and the ferocious defence when not in possession.

This season it seems like we are stuttering in each of those facets at times - we can do each one at 100% for a few minutes, but then it fades. The attack seems to start well but then it seems there's something forced, or a drop, or someone just out of position; the kick chase doesn't seem as effective (possibly because we've been missing Muir?), and I'm not sure if it's a deliberate defensive tactic (similar in a way to England's recent frailties) but teams seem to be able to make tens of yards on either wing before they're shut down, meaning they recycle far closer to our line that is preferable. A team with a kicker like Slade means we're punished and our maul defence hasn't seemed as good as last season either.

Well last week was a defeat, that felt like 100% like one. This week, a win ....that felt a bit like a defeat. The only saving grace I can find is, they say good teams playing badly, find a way to win.
Wild game. Bath discipline dreadful ...and at critical moments.
Feels like the standard of rugby in the Prem this year has taken a step forward - in the top 7 teams at least with a half decent Sale team adrift already

I think last year (and the year before) we had very few injuries. We've had a lot more this year. We're rotating many more players, which will hopefully pay dividends later on. Arundell has clearly added to us, but Muir was injured. Santi has shown flashes but isn't quite there yet. Injuries to Stuart, Lawrence, Ojo, Ewels, Hill have impacted us.

We've got three pivotal games before the international break. Win all three and we've home R16 and potentially QF Big Cup and a strong position to be top two in the league. Then the majority of the team get a rest.

Quote:

hasta
I think last year (and the year before) we had very few injuries. We've had a lot more this year. We're rotating many more players, which will hopefully pay dividends later on. Arundell has clearly added to us, but Muir was injured. Santi has shown flashes but isn't quite there yet. Injuries to Stuart, Lawrence, Ojo, Ewels, Hill have impacted us.
We've got three pivotal games before the international break. Win all three and we've home R16 and potentially QF Big Cup and a strong position to be top two in the league. Then the majority of the team get a rest.

Agreed, if you add to the injuries that we didn’t have Finn and Santi for preseason and then we lost our attack coach I think the slight lack of cohesion can be understood.

Quote:

hasta
I think last year (and the year before) we had very few injuries. We've had a lot more this year. We're rotating many more players, which will hopefully pay dividends later on. Arundell has clearly added to us, but Muir was injured. Santi has shown flashes but isn't quite there yet. Injuries to Stuart, Lawrence, Ojo, Ewels, Hill have impacted us.

Agree with this. I think we're just not doing the fundamentals as well as we did last season and that's not helped by injuries or consistency.

This habit of giving away penalties that harm us (and, boy, does Slade have about a 10m run up from the mark before he kicks) is the kind of thing that we mostly cut out last season. Likewise the loss of intensity even when we're ahead. Didn't really do it last year.

The opposition are adapting to us and I'm not sure we're entirely comfortable with it yet.

In terms of comparing us with last year, injuries are probably worse and the coaching change is a factor that we didn't face last year.

I dont have numbers to back this up, but it feels like we have more younger players rotating into the team this year which is great for the longer term but perhaps changes the cohesion of the team week to week.

I think we also need to bear in mind that teams will have been looking at how we played last year and putting in place plans to stop us.

Other teams have also improved on last season, notably the two sides we have just played.

Getting to the top is hard, but staying at the top is even harder.

Quote:

SJS

Quote:

BathRob
I think we sometimes lose sight on this board about other teams quality - Exeter are a quality side this year and have only lost once previously. Sometimes it’s not necessarily about us being poor and more about the other teams being good!

I do agree with this to some extent, but as the team that won the league comfortably (and then won the play-offs too) last year, and as the team that added absolute quality players in Carreras and Arundell to an already top-drawer squad, I think we look a considerable way off the level of last year ,and less than the sum of our parts at present.

I know no two seasons are the same, but I would have liked us to at least have maintained the standard of last year - the incisive attack when it's on, the pinpoint kicking when it's not, and the ferocious defence when not in possession.

This season it seems like we are stuttering in each of those facets at times - we can do each one at 100% for a few minutes, but then it fades. The attack seems to start well but then it seems there's something forced, or a drop, or someone just out of position; the kick chase doesn't seem as effective (possibly because we've been missing Muir?), and I'm not sure if it's a deliberate defensive tactic (similar in a way to England's recent frailties) but teams seem to be able to make tens of yards on either wing before they're shut down, meaning they recycle far closer to our line that is preferable. A team with a kicker like Slade means we're punished and our maul defence hasn't seemed as good as last season either.

I think this is most anccurate assessment & quite worrying. Why it is the case I’m not at all sure. Last season we were supreme & that carried on to the beginning of this season. We never looked like loosing matches home & away & seem to be continually improving. Yes, other teams have got their act together but using Saracens at their peak as my template I was not concerned as we had nothing to fear. It is now really dispiriting that we look vulnerable. I particularly noticed it in the 2nd half against Munster but there were signs before. We now look a potentially top 4 side but not the most likely winners. It could be that the loss if our outstanding attack coach has thrown us off balance though I think there were signs before that. JvG’s motto is always getting better. That has stalled & gone into reverse & I am fearful as to whether we can get it back. Perhaps my Premiership team facing inevitable relegation is making me more gloomy but that’s how I feel at present..

IMO there's a combination of factors to what feels like a stuttering season so far, many of which have been mentioned already.

Cohesion
We've had more injuries - especially to our first choice XXIII than the last couple of seasons. Stuart and Ewels are huge losses for us.
We've rotated younger player in more,whereas previously we've gone very strong mostly, and "rotated" by sending out a 2nd XV. This is a good thing, a price paid now to bear fruit later in the season, and I'm future seasons. But for now, it contributes to some stutter.
We lost out attack coach a few weeks into the season.

Mindset
As champions, we've got a target on our backs this year - everyone is raising their game against us.
We're less hungry than we were last year - we came into this season on a high, whilst last year we came in angry and with a point to prove.
Hubris - similar to above. We certainly see this from the press and this forum, where expectations are regularly set unrealistically high, I feel we've seen it from the team a few times in this window (including 3 of the last 3 games), where we've expected the game to come to us, rather than going out and making it.

On top of that, we've not changed much about our gameplan, and it's been worked out - especially our narrow defence, and Finn's pump before taking a tackle then releasing the ball after contact.

Then, other teams are allowed to be good.
Saints are unplayable at the moment, Exeter have tightened up, Sarries have refound their mojo, and Leicester are back. Bristol seem to have discovered that defence is sometimes a good thing, and Sale are still dangerous, if wounded.
Even Quins have the tools to hurt us if they can find common cause within the team.

And yet, we're still top 4, with the 2nd best attack, and 3rd best defence (before today's game is played).
We've now got 2 matches in Europe, then Gloucester before getting a mini-pre-season to sort things out. That will be our chance to hit the reset button and go again. We should get a few injuries sorted in the next 3 months (and hopefully no new ones). England are on a good run, so hopefully Guy, Sam, Ben, Max, Ollie and Henry will come back motivated (uninjured, and not too knackered).
Finn is my worry - he just plays so much rugby. Too much rugby - certainly over the last 18 months.
Get Santi training at FH over the 6N, maybe playing there in the PRC, so that he's grooved to it, and us, when the Prem returns, so that we can give Finn a few weeks off post-6N.
I wish we had the same option for Ben.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:04:09:22:56 by Which Tyler.

We weren't great (silly pens, missed tackles, v v limited attack etc) but I am in the glass half full camp.

Losing blackett at the time we did was always going to be difficult.

Jvg is rotating v heavily through this block, partially due to injury but mainly to keep players fresh and even further broaden our options. It's risky but I 100% back him- big trophies are won in may/ June.

If we get through to 6 nations in top 4 and still in big cup I think things are looking good.

How great was it to see the young guys as some of our better performers.

Sela solid with some good carried, kirk heavily involved off the bench, gyamfi v big presence in the mauls, hennessey lovely break for santi try, green excellent as ever and getting the winning try. The options grow and grow.

Good to see ted back at 6- class as ever and my player of the match.

One thing really baffled us in the ground, why on earth didn’t we take the 3pts just before half time instead of kicking for touch?

Our lineout is one of the worst in the league and rarely leads to anything positive.

Really poor decision by Ben.

[quote SJS][quote BathRob]
...and I'm not sure if it's a deliberate defensive tactic (similar in a way to England's recent frailties) but teams seem to be able to make tens of yards on either wing before they're shut down...
[/quote]

O'Driscoll called out that we defend narrow in his pre-game analysis before we played Sarries. Didn't work out for them that day; I guess either our D was great in terms of slowing their ball and the midfield blitz so the narrowness wasn't exposed, or perhaps Sarries just got a bit too carried away with putting up bombs for Caluori to (mostly unsuccessfully) chase. This season the cohesion maybe isnt quite there - rotation and inexperience will do that - or maybe other sides are getting better at exploiting it.

Also, of course credit to the turn-around that Baxter and co have achieved this season and I know its above all a team game, but I can't believe that would have been anything like as close without Feyi-Waboso in their side. He's a freak. In a good way.

"Rugby is a wonderful show. Dance, opera and, suddenly, the blood of a killing", Richard Burton

The Prem is a league of very fine margins and with the top teams it can go either way. There were a couple of things in the game that had they gone for us I think we would have pulled away.

1st 20 mins of 2nd half Ex barely got out of there half and a score then would have put the game out of reach.

The disallowed try and the Lawrence break pulled back for a forward pass (not saying the decisions were wrong just very slight difference in execution and we scored). The 3rd one (generally I thought Pearce was consistent and pretty good although he does tend to allow attacking side to go off there feet at the ruck) there was a ruck just by touch line roughly on half way Ex 10 killed the ball Flatman commented he didn't know how he got away with it. Then exe got free kick for dummy throw and instead of us being in their corner they are in ours.

There's nowt more frustrating in rugby than the death spiral of conceding penalty after penalty like we did yesterday. Could have been quite a different feel to the match if we'd cut out two or three of that run of silly/borderline pens.

Not sure I can face rewatching it but I'd like to have seen whether a couple were justified eg Dunn for blocking wasn't replayed to my recollection but it felt a bit harsh and really kept the momentum up for the Chiefs.

Crikey - some of these comments! We won didn’t we? Correct me if I’m wrong but we’ve only lost 3 times in all major competitions this season? Do we need a bit of perspective maybe?

I understand things aren’t quite as fluent as we’d like, which is inevitable given the coach change and injuries (Ojo and Ewels are key) but come on. We had some rotation yesterday that took us down to 3rd/4th teamers and came away with 5 points against a top 4 rival who are firing on all cylinders.

Let’s not write off this season just yet, I’m honestly not seeing some of these major structural issues that mean we’re doomed this season. Post 6 nations is when this league will be settled, so let’s not get too worked up and enjoy the win!

Quote:

Murty7
The Prem is a league of very fine margins and with the top teams it can go either way. There were a couple of things in the game that had they gone for us I think we would have pulled away.
1st 20 mins of 2nd half Ex barely got out of there half and a score then would have put the game out of reach.

The disallowed try and the Lawrence break pulled back for a forward pass (not saying the decisions were wrong just very slight difference in execution and we scored). The 3rd one (generally I thought Pearce was consistent and pretty good although he does tend to allow attacking side to go off there feet at the ruck) there was a ruck just by touch line roughly on half way Ex 10 killed the ball Flatman commented he didn't know how he got away with it. Then exe got free kick for dummy throw and instead of us being in their corner they are in ours.

.
I feel we only go looking for fine margins when we have under-performed. We rarely talked about them last season.

Quote:

JK7
There's nowt more frustrating in rugby than the death spiral of conceding penalty after penalty like we did yesterday. Could have been quite a different feel to the match if we'd cut out two or three of that run of silly/borderline pens.
Not sure I can face rewatching it but I'd like to have seen whether a couple were justified eg Dunn for blocking wasn't replayed to my recollection but it felt a bit harsh and really kept the momentum up for the Chiefs.

Can someone explain why Lawrence was pinged for offside? I played it back several times & couldn’t see how he infringed.

Quote:

BathRob
Crikey - some of these comments! We won didn’t we? Correct me if I’m wrong but we’ve only lost 3 times in all major competitions this season? Do we need a bit of perspective maybe?
I understand things aren’t quite as fluent as we’d like, which is inevitable given the coach change and injuries (Ojo and Ewels are key) but come on. We had some rotation yesterday that took us down to 3rd/4th teamers and came away with 5 points against a top 4 rival who are firing on all cylinders.

Let’s not write off this season just yet, I’m honestly not seeing some of these major structural issues that mean we’re doomed this season. Post 6 nations is when this league will be settled, so let’s not get too worked up and enjoy the win!

It’s more the trend in our performances. We’ve always rotated under JvG & last year we won games with almost our Prem Cup team. I think most feel we’re still okay for top 4 but if we’re aiming to replicate what Exeter & Saracens did before them ie an extended period of dominance, which looked likely, we need to be sure of top 2. Last year that was virtually certain, this year less so.

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

BathRob
Crikey - some of these comments! We won didn’t we? Correct me if I’m wrong but we’ve only lost 3 times in all major competitions this season? Do we need a bit of perspective maybe?
I understand things aren’t quite as fluent as we’d like, which is inevitable given the coach change and injuries (Ojo and Ewels are key) but come on. We had some rotation yesterday that took us down to 3rd/4th teamers and came away with 5 points against a top 4 rival who are firing on all cylinders.

Let’s not write off this season just yet, I’m honestly not seeing some of these major structural issues that mean we’re doomed this season. Post 6 nations is when this league will be settled, so let’s not get too worked up and enjoy the win!

It’s more the trend in our performances. We’ve always rotated under JvG & last year we won games with almost our Prem Cup team. I think most feel we’re still okay for top 4 but if we’re aiming to replicate what Exeter & Saracens did before them ie an extended period of dominance, which looked likely, we need to be sure of top 2. Last year that was virtually certain, this year less so.

Genuine question - but did we? I can only really remember the Bristol and Saracens away games where we sent real Prem Cup teams and we lost both times (albeit but up a real fight).

I can’t remember any other games where we massively rotated and won but could be completely wrong of course.

I’m just not seeing this worry about not making top 4. Out of all the teams competing at the sharp end we’ve only lost to Saints on what was an all round bad day. Come the playoffs I’d be happy that we’d win.

That’s not to say we’ve been imperious, we’ve obviously had a drop in some areas and aren’t looking as fluid, but we’ve still put away a rival (in geography and table) with a bonus point.

Something else that may be affecting me more then everyone else is I really feel like the Prem win last season got the monkey off our back, I felt so much more sanguine this year. Not to say I don’t want a dynasty, more that I feel like we’ve shown we belong at the top table as opposed to it being “same old Bath, how long since they last won it all?”

BathRob, personally the most concerning is our backs apparently being devoid of any ideas which highlights the significant downgrade we’ve suffered by losing LB.

Last season we ripped sides apart at times and were light years better than any other team.

This year with our defence being slightly off and the discipline not as good we seem vulnerable at times.

Are we looking like making top 4? yes. Do we look like finishing top 2? Not convinced.

Last season we beat Exeter twice in the league, 19-15 at home and 24-26 away for a combined margin of 6 points . That was a terrible season for Exeter and our greatest in a generation. I think some people are only remembering the silverware from last season and not how we got there.

Quote:

OutsideBath
One thing really baffled us in the ground, why on earth didn’t we take the 3pts just before half time instead of kicking for touch?
Our lineout is one of the worst in the league and rarely leads to anything positive.

Really poor decision by Ben.

Do the stats actually tell that story?

I had the impression our rolling maul from 5/6 metres was pretty strong in points league

Northampton, Exeter & Bristol playing at the top of their game as teams and also individual players. Can they keep it up till May. We haven't hit our best by a long way. Change of coach, injuries and lots of rotation (6 youngsters in yesterday's squad and all looked to the manor born). We (hopefully) can improve a lot (team and individuals) by May.

Quote:

dcsh
Last season we beat Exeter twice in the league, 19-15 at home and 24-26 away for a combined margin of 6 points . That was a terrible season for Exeter and our greatest in a generation. I think some people are only remembering the silverware from last season and not how we got there.

Additionally after round 9 last season we were on 39 points in 1st, this season we are on 36 in 2nd, but 36 point at this point last season would still have had us in 1st!

Last season we lost in round 10 to Saints, this year we face Gloucester and if things go to form we could be sitting on 41 points after 10 rounds, exactly the same as last season. The difference is that other teams are also doing well.

Quote:

Murty7
The Prem is a league of very fine margins and with the top teams it can go either way. There were a couple of things in the game that had they gone for us I think we would have pulled away.
1st 20 mins of 2nd half Ex barely got out of there half and a score then would have put the game out of reach.

The disallowed try and the Lawrence break pulled back for a forward pass (not saying the decisions were wrong just very slight difference in execution and we scored). The 3rd one (generally I thought Pearce was consistent and pretty good although he does tend to allow attacking side to go off there feet at the ruck) there was a ruck just by touch line roughly on half way Ex 10 killed the ball Flatman commented he didn't know how he got away with it. Then exe got free kick for dummy throw and instead of us being in their corner they are in ours.

Completely agree with all of this

Plus, have just read that first game of the season Chiefs were trailing Saints at FG by 26 points and came back to draw

They were 20 points down at Sale and won

At Sarries they trailed by 11 and won

Draw your own conclusions from that context

I shall try, as ever, to offer a balanced view on the morning after...

Last year we finished top with 72 points and four losses. At the halfway stage this year we are second with 36 points and two losses. Unless there's a huge fall off in performance, we're on track for a top two finish.

At the same time, clearly not everything is working as well as we'd all like. And while I agree that rugby is a game of fine margins, you have to be on the right side of those fine margins and therefore we should talk about what we need to do to get better as I'm sure JVG, coaching staff and team are.

For me personally, I want to see us play well more than anything else. I can take a defeat to a better side if we gave it everything we could – Toulon being a good recent example, where a better team on the day overpowered us, yet we still scored four tries on the road. I think there are quite a few here who feel the same way and that's why it grates to lose in the manner we did against Saints and to nearly throw away a 26-point lead yesterday.

The most important thing is that the passion and desire is still there – as seen in that incredible multi-phase move at the death yesterday. Cut down on the silly infringements and improve our backline cohesion and things will quickly get much better.

As I have mentioned before opposition teams will raise their games against the Champions!

Are you playing as well as last season?
These player ratings perhaps suggest not
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]#

Hardly surprising how much Rugby TDT & Finn have played!
Santi I don’t feel has fully integrated yet, maybe the 6N break will be an opportunity for that.
Plus also for Gleeson to fully integrate.

Some good young additions to your first team squad
- Green no noticeable drop off from your first XV back rowers.
- Sela proofing what we know from England U20 games.
- Kepu & Richards already known about.
- Opoku-Gyamfi a break through season!
- Kirk I thought had a couple of Rabbit in headlights moments but will learn from the experience!

Just a word about our very own PGT interviewed by Flats before the game with another long time supporter. Well done PG great interview and positive as always! 👏👏

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tigersimon
Are you playing as well as last season?
These player ratings perhaps suggest not
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]#

Key players look a little jaded for me, which may be one reason why JVG is rotating in more younger players (although the injury list is long).

The problem with winning three trophies is everyone plays a lot of minutes and then the problem compounds because more of the side get international call-ups, which compounds again because your pre-season is impacted.

I'm a half-full man personally... We're 1 bad tackle away from TdT at Tigers and we're sitting top on 39 points...

Also, the last 2 Exeter tries our defence was actually pretty darn good. If we'd conceded a penalty, where we weren't even given a warning for their 4th, then we would have inevitably conceded a try anyway yet be 14 down. I was actually pretty impressed at the D, which says something when we conceded, but it took some serious power from an Exeter team famous for said power to score. Keeping us to 15 allowed us to actually go and win the game.

As others have said, long old way to go, big chunk during 6N for Gleeson to properly settle in and get Santi fully firing along with the rest

As many others have said, Exeter are made of different stuff this year. We didn't have a defeat in the manner of Saints last week in 24/25. All were closely fought but hopefully that proves to be a blip.

Most important thing is we still have to go away to all of Northampton, Exeter and Bristol. Looks like that is shaping up to be top 4. Sarries may spoil party but that's it for me. Also got Enya still to come - regardless of league position, that's always one of the toughest away fixtures.

Looking at it right now, you'd be happy with a win and a few bonus points from those 4 games. Where would that leave us?

Quote:

CoochieCoo
Just a word about our very own PGT interviewed by Flats before the game with another long time supporter. Well done PG great interview and positive as always! 👏👏

How interesting. I saw that. Which of the two was PGT?

The one on the left of Flats

Not the one with the clipboard of notes?

Who was that?

No

Re: Kirk having a “rabbit in headlight moment”, he may have done, but he did also make a couple of decent carries in the final epic play (do need to give the forwards a lot of credit for not knocking the ball on under extreme pressure for 30+ pick and go’s).

On the subject of loose heads, I thought Beno had a belter of a game and was surprised he wasn’t short listed for MoM, was very quick in defensive line, won nearly all his collisions, strong carries and scrum was very solid.

Quote:

CoochieCoo
Just a word about our very own PGT interviewed by Flats before the game with another long time supporter. Well done PG great interview and positive as always! 👏👏

Well done PGT on getting a friendly dig in at Flats/commentators!

Quote:

Shadders
Re: Kirk having a “rabbit in headlight moment”, he may have done, but he did also make a couple of decent carries in the final epic play (do need to give the forwards a lot of credit for not knocking the ball on under extreme pressure for 30+ pick and go’s).
On the subject of loose heads, I thought Beno had a belter of a game and was surprised he wasn’t short listed for MoM, was very quick in defensive line, won nearly all his collisions, strong carries and scrum was very solid.

Beno has been so effective and reliable since the Leinster game last season. He does so loads of good stuff every game. "The comeback is greater than the setback".

Also, I think the official phase count for that last try is now 41 rather than the 38 initially reported.

The last try was epic, but it’s almost impossible to defend pick-and-go when you know that giving away a penalty will result in losing the match. Having said that, when we started that sequence 22 or more metres out I wouldn’t have believed we could make it to the line 75cms at a time, error-free.In the end the only danger was getting held up over the line …. which would have led to a very, very different post-match narrative!

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Barfboy
As many others have said, Exeter are made of different stuff this year. We didn't have a defeat in the manner of Saints last week in 24/25. All were closely fought but hopefully that proves to be a blip.
Most important thing is we still have to go away to all of Northampton, Exeter and Bristol. Looks like that is shaping up to be top 4. Sarries may spoil party but that's it for me. Also got Enya still to come - regardless of league position, that's always one of the toughest away fixtures.

Looking at it right now, you'd be happy with a win and a few bonus points from those 4 games. Where would that leave us?

Bristol game is the last game of the regular season. I’m hoping 1st or 2nd is secured by then and we do t have to rely on getting anything in Bristol and can rest the team, like we did in Cardiff last season.

J

Great game - Chiefs are such an awkward team to play - they have a really limited game plan and superb players who drive it - Slade's left boot is such a weapon and Hooper is some player along with the rest of their back row coupled with IFW, Jenkins and why we let Woodburn to leave I will never know.

Our discipline desperately needs to improve and players HAVE to start listening to the official because that was the only route Chiefs had into the game.

We won a hard, physical game and the Barbeary was immense, we have desperately missed our ball carriers and hopefully Jaco will be back soon as well - I just want to mention Arthur Green is going to be some player - he has been so impressive this season.

Also - I personally thought Luke Pearce performance was the best I have seen from an official for a long long time.

Quote:

Ali1969
Also - I personally thought Luke Pearce performance was the best I have seen from an official for a long long time.

+1

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ChippenhamRoman

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Barfboy
As many others have said, Exeter are made of different stuff this year. We didn't have a defeat in the manner of Saints last week in 24/25. All were closely fought but hopefully that proves to be a blip.
Most important thing is we still have to go away to all of Northampton, Exeter and Bristol. Looks like that is shaping up to be top 4. Sarries may spoil party but that's it for me. Also got Enya still to come - regardless of league position, that's always one of the toughest away fixtures.

Looking at it right now, you'd be happy with a win and a few bonus points from those 4 games. Where would that leave us?

Bristol game is the last game of the regular season. I’m hoping 1st or 2nd is secured by then and we do t have to rely on getting anything in Bristol and can rest the team, like we did in Cardiff last season.

J

Bristol is second to last, we finish with Tigers at home. Both games potential banana skins and you’d hope we have sorted our own destiny by then.

Agree with the sentiment though, up against what could likely be our opponents for the semis, or even better looking to knock them out of the playoffs altogether!

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BathRob
Bristol is second to last, we finish with Tigers at home. Both games potential banana skins and you’d hope we have sorted our own destiny by then.

Is away at Bristol really a 'potential banana skin'? I don't see then as materially weaker at their place.

Exeter have some favourable fixtures for the second half - either top teams at Sandy Park (Bristol, Bath, Saints, Sarries) or lower table teams away (Newcastle, Quins and Gloucs). They may well finish strong. Bristol away to Tigers, Saints, Sarries, Exe.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

2nd to 4th is wide open, suspect this year we’ll have to go full strength in the last 2 rounds.

Quote:

BathRob

Quote:

ChippenhamRoman

Quote:

Barfboy
As many others have said, Exeter are made of different stuff this year. We didn't have a defeat in the manner of Saints last week in 24/25. All were closely fought but hopefully that proves to be a blip.
Most important thing is we still have to go away to all of Northampton, Exeter and Bristol. Looks like that is shaping up to be top 4. Sarries may spoil party but that's it for me. Also got Enya still to come - regardless of league position, that's always one of the toughest away fixtures.

Looking at it right now, you'd be happy with a win and a few bonus points from those 4 games. Where would that leave us?

Bristol game is the last game of the regular season. I’m hoping 1st or 2nd is secured by then and we do t have to rely on getting anything in Bristol and can rest the team, like we did in Cardiff last season.

J

Bristol is second to last, we finish with Tigers at home. Both games potential banana skins and you’d hope we have sorted our own destiny by then.

Agree with the sentiment though, up against what could likely be our opponents for the semis, or even better looking to knock them out of the playoffs altogether!

Given that we're now at halfway stage and how it's gone so far, would anyone be surprised if we only took, say, 5-6 points from the 4 away games I mentioned? And would that be enough to seal top 2? Seems unlikely.

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

BathRob
Bristol is second to last, we finish with Tigers at home. Both games potential banana skins and you’d hope we have sorted our own destiny by then.

Is away at Bristol really a 'potential banana skin'? I don't see then as materially weaker at their place.

Exeter have some favourable fixtures for the second half - either top teams at Sandy Park (Bristol, Bath, Saints, Sarries) or lower table teams away (Newcastle, Quins and Gloucs). They may well finish strong. Bristol away to Tigers, Saints, Sarries, Exe.

Banana skins in context of league position, not in terms of the actual game. I can’t remember the last time we beat Bristol away, maybe three or four years ago?

Heart rate has just about come down now, a few observations on the match.

Shout out to Sela, he is fast becoming an integral part of the team, thought he scrummaged really impressively against a weighty Chiefs pack, the fact that there wasn't a discernible improvement in our scrum when TdT came on shows how far he's come.

Green is putting forward a strong case for being our number 1 number 8. As we know JvG often has his top players on the bench, could this be a hint that Arthur is now the preferred option?

Also thought EOG handled himself well on his debut, got through a couple of soft shoulders without quite making any knockout blows, the more time he gets with Finn, Max, Cam, Santi, etc then he could quickly become a potent new weapon for them to pop passes to.

Santi did well for the try, but otherwise looked like he wasn't quite on the same wavelength, 2 speculative dabs through and the held up in contact moment were frustrating to watch, feel like he's got to shoulder some of the responsibility for the backline not clicking and our wingers seeing very little ball. Also worth mentioning that TdG (and Ojomoh) seemed to be fully involved in the pregame warm up, so he could back in contention for the coming weeks.

Exeter look to have really improved their fundamentals since last season, no glaring weaknesses in defence, set piece, cohesion, etc, but at the same time they didn't look "scary" to me, they pretty much got back into the game by either:

1. Giving it to IFW and asking him to create something out of thin air
2. Going through the phases 50+ metres from our tryline, wait for Bath to give away a penalty, Slade sticks it right in the corner

Bath just needed to be smarter and realise that Pearce wasn't giving the defensive side anything at the breakdown and just back ourselves to regain possession via a Chiefs mistake instead of going for a risky jackal. Also a perennial complaint of mine is our ability to turn a seemingly good territorial kick into a golden attacking opportunity for the opposition, all because our kick chasers miss that all important initial tackle. Happened with Ravouvou in last season's SF, and happened again today. There's no point busting a lung to close down the backtracking player if you then slip off the tackle and leave a huge hole to counterattack into. I'd rather we gave them an extra 10 metres but kept the defensive line in tact and let the opposition run into a brick wall or kick away.

One final weird quirk I spotted, virtually all of Exeter's box kicks seemed to have almost no distance on them, often only landing about 5m upfield from the ruck. It happened so many times I assumed it was on purpose, and also there wingers seemed much more prepared for it than ours. It typically meant the ball was landing in an area full of stationary forwards, and our bomb diffusers didn't have a run up to help them get in the air. Woodburn and IFW seemed to win a lot of tap backs via this tactic, just wonder whether this is a new way to manage the updated kicking laws.

Quote:

boozeboozebooze
Woodburn and IFW seemed to win a lot of tap backs via this tactic, just wonder whether this is a new way to manage the updated kicking laws.

Dafydd Jenkins did it time and time again vs Sale when Exe came back to win by a point in Nov. He was running beyond the ball, allowing Tom O'Flaherty to tap it back and catching it before making a run as he was already beyond their defensive line. I couldn't believe that Sale kept doing the same thing in that game.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Spot on analysis.

I also wondered about their box kicks which were exactly what you say above....but frankly if you are only going to make 5 yards then surely better to give it to IFW who seemed to make 10 yards every time he got the ball without the variable element of the kick!

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Bath Supporter Jack
Spot on analysis.
I also wondered about their box kicks which were exactly what you say above....but frankly if you are only going to make 5 yards then surely better to give it to IFW who seemed to make 10 yards every time he got the ball without the variable element of the kick!

It's a fair observation, my guess is that box kicks disrupt the defensive line and can therefore lead to an opportunity for unstructured attacking play, which could lead to the likes of IFW making huge inroads or possibly even scoring.

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boozeboozebooze

Exeter look to have really improved their fundamentals since last season, no glaring weaknesses in defence, set piece, cohesion, etc, but at the same time they didn't look "scary" to me, they pretty much got back into the game by either:

This is my take on them as well. Almost a lesser version of the team that was so successful (no real surprise given it's still a Baxter side) in that they will make life difficult for anyone and win plenty of games through furious competance but short of top end quality that would make them favourites for a home semi / title wins. Not to say they can't do it but so much rides on Slade to create (I still don't really rate Skinner much) or a winger to pull something out the bag that I'd place them a step below the main contenders.

Ironically in the recent games Bath have looked like the (boring but largely successful) Exeter side of a few years ago with all of these multi phase forward 6 inch drives to - and over - the line. Looked a much more balanced side last year IMO.

We all knew that last year was a bit of an abberation with Exe and Saints - both excellent sides - doing so poorly. It was always going to be a close race in the top half of the Prem this season with both of them back on form.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Also the 5 yard line out, maul and then try works against not quite so strong packs but not against the big boys

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
Also the 5 yard line out, maul and then try works against not quite so strong packs but not against the big boys

Also works well against teams that choose not to challenge, something we were guilty of at the weekend.

Dweba isn't known for his accurate darts, given how strict the officials were being on straight throws when both sides jumped (something we were pinged for multiple times) it did seem odd that we didn't look to put some pressure on them in that area, particularly once we had Roux, Hill, and Maloney all on the field.

I guess 6nations is the last time for clubs to super analyse other teams prepare to defend and attack them and develop new moves. It would seem sensible to hold some tactics/gameplans back till mid March so opposition teams don't have time to adjust. Let's hope Bath have an all round game plan tucked up their sleeve ready to catch everyone off guard come the end of the season. Just a hope.

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Optimist
The last try was epic, but it’s almost impossible to defend ... the only danger was getting held up over the line …. which would have led to a very, very different post-match narrative!

So very true

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gaz59

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Optimist
The last try was epic, but it’s almost impossible to defend ... the only danger was getting held up over the line …. which would have led to a very, very different post-match narrative!

So very true

Or knocking on. Or off feet. Or coming in from the side. Or clearing out dangerously.

I haven't watched it back but when they spun it out and Carreras took it back in towards the posts I thought that there was space on the outside (away from the defenders?).

For me 2 dozen bodies all in the same space for 38 phases is always going to be a higher risk than an international player running in unopposed on a dry day. Still, it worked so all good.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

BathMatt53
Ironically in the recent games Bath have looked like the (boring but largely successful) Exeter side of a few years ago with all of these multi phase forward 6 inch drives to - and over - the line. Looked a much more balanced side last year IMO.
We all knew that last year was a bit of an abberation with Exe and Saints - both excellent sides - doing so poorly. It was always going to be a close race in the top half of the Prem this season with both of them back on form.

but Exeter were decimated, loosing the majority of their star players. They had a run of about 7 years at the top. There was no reason to expect after the last dismal season that they would get back to the top so quickly. We always used to talk about such a project taking 3/4 years. I do wonder if they will be able to keep up this level of performance.

Definitely seen a trend across all matches of players tapping back on the high ball.

Interestingly in the first match of the season in the Prem Cup vs Exeter I commented that kicking high and hoping Brown-Bampoe would compete and knock it back isn’t a match winning tactic.

Maybe I was wrong 😂😂

Quote:

BathRob
Interestingly in the first match of the season in the Prem Cup vs Exeter I commented that kicking high and hoping Brown-Bampoe would compete and knock it back isn’t a match winning tactic.
Maybe I was wrong 😂😂

I do think the whole one handed volleyball style tap back should be looked at, players can jump with far less control if they are only looking to get fingertips on the ball.

I'd be tempted to referee it similarly to deliberate knock ons, if the jumping player manages to tap it backwards then it's play on, if they jump one handed and knock it on then that's akin to not being in a realistic position to catch the ball, so award a penalty to the other team.

One final thing I've just remembered from the game.

Given we scored our final try pretty much bang on 79 minutes, and we had 60 seconds for the conversion, I wonder if Finn considered at all to just let the timer elapse and not bother taking the kick?

We couldn't deprive Exeter of a LBP, so aside from improving our overall point difference by 2 there wasn't really much to be gained.

On the flipside, it would only have taken a misjudgement by a couple of seconds for Exeter to then get another restart and one last chance to score.

I'm sure Finn ran everything by the ref to make sure he knew how finely to judge it, but I personally don't have complete faith in the officials to keep track of the match clock down to the second (e.g. the ludicrous 7 minute sin bin in the Quins game a few seasons ago).

Right at the whistle Slade was jumping around, I presume saying the match should be re-starting as a couple of seconds left etc.

Always a difficult balancing act but not sure anyone could argue against the game being over!

Pearce was really clear with Finn on the timings left over the ref mic and what he had to do to prevent a re-start

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theredseat
Pearce was really clear with Finn on the timings left over the ref mic and what he had to do to prevent a re-start

Russell put over the conversion with 4s left on the shot clock immediately after the match clock went red

Have to say I'm not a fan of the way the shot clock is allowed to be used to run out match time

For me, it should be a maximum time limit but the emphasis on kicker to take the kick within reasonably possible timeframe and ref allowed to tell the kicker to get on with it or risk a pen from the ko

Quote:

gaz59
Have to say I'm not a fan of the way the shot clock is allowed to be used to run out match time
For me, it should be a maximum time limit but the emphasis on kicker to take the kick within reasonably possible timeframe and ref allowed to tell the kicker to get on with it or risk a pen from the ko

Or have the match clock stopped while the shot clock is running.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Quote:

gaz59
Have to say I'm not a fan of the way the shot clock is allowed to be used to run out match time
For me, it should be a maximum time limit but the emphasis on kicker to take the kick within reasonably possible timeframe and ref allowed to tell the kicker to get on with it or risk a pen from the ko

Totally disagree, I think it makes an additional tactical element.

I heard on commentary that Finn was chatting to Luke Pierce while winding the clock down 😂

Quote:

boozeboozebooze
One final thing I've just remembered from the game.
Given we scored our final try pretty much bang on 79 minutes, and we had 60 seconds for the conversion, I wonder if Finn considered at all to just let the timer elapse and not bother taking the kick?

We couldn't deprive Exeter of a LBP, so aside from improving our overall point difference by 2 there wasn't really much to be gained.

On the flipside, it would only have taken a misjudgement by a couple of seconds for Exeter to then get another restart and one last chance to score.

I'm sure Finn ran everything by the ref to make sure he knew how finely to judge it, but I personally don't have complete faith in the officials to keep track of the match clock down to the second (e.g. the ludicrous 7 minute sin bin in the Quins game a few seasons ago).

Widcombe Garçon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:01:06:22:30:58 by hasta.

Sounds like Finn 😂😂

On a slightly related note, I genuinely think his attitude has been the most important element he’s added. That “don’t worry we’ll fix it next time” attitude is so important, especially when Bath (as a collective of fans, players, coaches, and administrators) have maybe been guilty of taking it all a bit too seriously.

Yep - listening on Reflink, Finn and Luke basically talked the shot clock down, with Pearce very clear Finn must kick as it went to 80 or be timed out - he assured Finn the officials had checked it very carefully. Don't think you can stop players running it to the wire on kicks, "reasonable" makes it subjective, back to where we were before it was introduced.

Only just been able to watch the game. Not sure we won a turnover or turnover penalty at the breakdown. No MR, or SU starting. Game plan seemed to be not to compete, maybe due to personnel.
Horrible (stupid) penalty count, didn’t play well for 60 mins, still won though.