'08 wing on MP4-24

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In my years being as a fan of F1 I would never count out McLaren. Indeed, it doesnt make sense to use data for comparison from 2008 specs and 2009 spec that long. Im an Aerospace Eng. and when we work in the wind tunnel university, we do test our previous design to compare with the new design for improvement but at the end of the day after first results we were more worried to do more testing of our new aproach if it was working up to our expectations.

the only think I can imagine is that they are finishing up one of their rear wing spec for 2009 and they tried to be as close as possible to the 2008 performance. They didnt just applied the new rules to the new rear wing since last year make the car faster overall we want something close to that. It also could mean they ran a little behind off schedule but I think at the they will get there....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:03:04:13:28:04 by RGS.

If they have built their car predicated on getting 2008 downforce out of the 2009 rear wing, I have 2 words for them...Holy Grail.

If you had a solution to the problem you should be testing it, wouldn't you?

1º 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 00:01'19''945 41
.2º 1 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 00:01'20''250 00:00'00''305 55
.3º 3 Nick Heidfeld BMW-Sauber 00:01'20''520 00:00'00''575 36
.4º 11 Jarno Trulli Toyota 00:01'20''861 00:00'00''916 41
.5º 10 Mark Webber Red Bull 00:01'20''894 00:00'00''949 45
.6º 8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams 00:01'20''948 00:00'01''003 32
.7º 20 Adrian Sutil Force India 00:01'21''476 00:00'01''531 52
.8º 22 Lewis Hamilton McLaren 00:01'21''753 00:00'01''808 7 (2008 rear wing)

Look the fact of the matter is that the rules have changed so using a 08 spec rear wing won't be permitted in any shape or form come Melbourne so unless Mclaren has something up their sleeves with the 09 wing then I can see them struggling to make the podium as things stand.

Look at it from other team's point of view: Mclaren using the 08 wing in recent tests has not proven to be clearly quicker than the Redbull for raw speed so even if the 09 rear end is as fast as the 08 rear end then from what I've seen its not good enough.

McLaren is looking like it has a few different situations possible here.

1. They have a trick wing that produces 2008 style downforce, hence the 2008 wing running at a steep angle for testing. They don't want it copied so they won't show it until Australia.

2. They thought that had a trick wing. They designed the chassis around X level of downforce that the tunnel told them could be achievable. They took the car out to the track and the wing couldn't heat the tires without being so steep that it's better called a parachute.

3. The whole rear end is a mess and they are running the 2008 wing as a reference point while waiting for the tunnel to come up with a whole new solution.

4. The wing is fine, but the McLarens advanced new tire simulator screwed up and led the chassis team astray. Now the slicks can't get enough heat or something else screwey.

I want to go with the tire simulator. New tech like that backfires a lot for teams. Look at the Williams FW27. The new wind tunnel produced parts that actually made the car slower.

I dunno about this whole rear wing issue. But I doubt it that mclaren are pretty screwed up. The thing is, if they have such a serious problem with tyre heating for example, due to the rear wing, why did they waste time testing with 2010 tyres????

In my opinion, they are hiding something, sandbagging is the word. I'm pretty sure they are quite confident, otherwise they surely surely wouldn't have tested 2010 tyres during such a critical time where testing is so limited and crucial with all tehse new regulations. Just wait till Mebourne... and bdw we gonna have KERS quite probably, which should give us an advantage.

I have a strong feeling we are still top and very strong. Just wait till Melbourne...

i do hope you guys are right, but something tells me that we are in deep s**t, two types of 2009 spec rear wing are tested already and they shifted to 2008 wing right away, and unlike last year testing that Macca has always been near the top of the timesheets now we are always on the bottom.

lets just be clear about something...it is a 2008 legal rear wing, but has been modified for expected 2009 levels.
the point of running this wing is to allow them to get aero balance, which they find difficult with just bolting on the 2009 wing. i suspect it has to do with the floor and diffuser more than an issue with just the wing itself. They are simply banking on the complete package, wing, floor, diffuser, giving them the right downforce to get the desired aero balance with the front wing.
what can be said with some confidence is that mclaren believe their car will be on the pace....others may disagree, but i guess they deserve some benefit of the doubt untill it is proven they have screwed up.

indeed is not about just the wing but the whole car and when I said their performance with 2008 wing is just a design concept until they get their final design ready and that didnt mean just the 2009 wing but the whole package...anyway, Im sure they will be there and barcelona will prove that becuase I think by them they will have the whole package ready. If they dont there, then I would be worried....

Our car doesn't look fast. ..I really hope that wasn't the case but it is.
There is too many issues about the 2008 rear-wing..at this high level of competition one thing is true....Mclaren hasn't adopted the sandbagging strategy in the last decade...when they are fast you'd see it in the tests.

Maybe with Whitmarsh as the new Team Principal comes a new strategy but I strongly doubt it.

I say..if it looks like we messing up..then we truly messed up.

That doesn't mean we can't fix it. Hope we fix it within the first 3 races.

lets hope not...

Quote:

That doesn't mean we can't fix it. Hope we fix it within the first 3 races.

If they do end up having problem's in R1 not much will be done in the first three races. Any improvements will be made once they retrurn to Europe.

U r spot on..in fact we come back to europe (spain) for the 5th race.

One other thing I understand is we were slower this week bcoz we were testing 2010 tyres which are slower.

Was everyone else on those tyres?????

Macca ran 2010 tires one day. Other teams also took turns running the 2010 tires...lame excuse!

This car is a dog...running dead last today. Is it running the 2009 aero package or still usign a 2008 rear wing?

MP4/18

It's the 2009 rear wing.

Today was full 2009 package for McLaren including the wing...

We are slowly looking incredibly caught out by the new regulations.

I just hope we are heavily sandbagging and not showing our hand... and when it comes to the last day of testing we'll show everyone who the champ is!...

Please, I don't think they should let the cat out of the bag too soon. I'm sure Macca have the best KERS, after all Ron Dennis himself said so and they have had it working for longer than any other team. Kova has not used KERS today, so subtract about 2 sec form his lap times and he is right in there. With all of that "benchmarking" they did with the 2008 wing and the green airflow dye they have far more data than the other teams and can use it when it is appropriate. I say sandbag until Saturday practice in Oz. That will really catch everyone off guard.

Don't forget Lewis is much faster than Kova. I expect to see Lewis in the front row in Oz.

I've heard a rumour, and that's all it is, but McLaren were costing on the main straight, maybe not on all laps though.

Quote:

SonnyT
I say sandbag until Saturday practice in Oz. That will really catch everyone off guard.

I say, sandbag till the middle of the season…then stunt everyone with MP4-24’s ferocious speed, good look and superb aero..
Now, that will make people pee on their couch.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:03:09:18:52:31 by Mood Rossi.

I am quite sure that there is a slight element of sandbagging at the moment with Macca, yet I don't think we're going to be as strong as Ferrari and BMW in the first 3 races minimum I think.

I hope I am proved wrong, but there's no denying that Mclaren have never been impressive this testing... but with testing you can hardly tell.

some pple however think we are sandbagging..check this link:
[bleacherreport.com]

The reports are that this morning was spent finding yet another baseline. Being last on the time sheets gives new meaning to the term BASEline.

For the afternoon session they replaced the floor, front wing, rear wing and top body. Just about everything that is painted silver and red is new. Result: the car was noticably faster. Just not very fast.

These are the last few days to get it right. These new mods had better be the answer, because there is no more time for testing.

face it macca fans, mcclaren have had a dog car for years, if its not underperforming its breaking down every second race - WITH the exception of last years car. And that was a direct result of stealing data from ferrari!!! remember them getting fined 100mill for it?? no question there.. This year, with NO help from Ferrari, or any other team, they are back to their dog car... good luck.

hahahahaha

I've heard a rumour, and that's all it is, but McLaren were costing on the main straight, maybe not on all laps though.

Now that would be a really boneheaded thing to do while testing a car that has been plagued by aerodynmaic deficencies.

SonnyT why do u like slating Mclaren so much? Surely you must hate us for a reason...because we gonna whoop ur backsides again with Hamilton

Mac Might Fly, that link is extremely encouraging, and I hope he's right. As I said, I think we are sandbagging to some extent, but I doubt it we'll be as strong as ferrari in the first few races. Let's hope Hamilton makes the difference...

Quote:

james1981
face it macca fans, mcclaren have had a dog car for years, if its not underperforming its breaking down every second race - WITH the exception of last years car. And that was a direct result of stealing data from ferrari!!! remember them getting fined 100mill for it?? no question there.. This year, with NO help from Ferrari, or any other team, they are back to their dog car... good luck.
hahahahaha

Get a life mucker.

Mac you're right...all of this old wing, new wing, green dye, baselining, benchmarking, and running at the back is because McLaren have such a good car that trying to make it fast during testing is a boring waste of time. An activity best suited to backmarkers.

March in Spain is for working on your tan when your car is a good as the MP4-24. Relax as soon as wonder boy gets in the seat all will be right.

Read back through the January posts to see just how superior the latest creation of the uber confident team from Woking was universally decried to be. Then read the February posts that implore fans not to worry the 2008 wing is being used to simulate downforce expectations of the 2009 wing (never mind that everyone else but STR were running their 2009 aero). Or, the claims that Macca were doing everything they could to hide their true speed. One knit-wit reported a rumor that Kova was coasting to keep his times high.

Now it is March with only 2 more days of testing before the cars will head off to the first of 5 far away races. To put the lie to the notion that all was well, virtually every piece of the car that meets the wind has been replaced. The net affect has been nil. The only solution that has held any promise is the 2008 spec wing and it is illegal. Of course it could be, since the aero changes have not had much impact on performance, that the problems are other than aero. Most folks make the mistake of assuming that the significant rules changes were aero related, but KERS and and the location of its components are equally significant. Perhaps the chassis is not properly integrated with KERS and its array of batteries are keeping Macca form getting the car balanced. If the latter is true, all Woking needs to do is produce a new chassis.

If the problems facing the MP4-24 were minor, an organization as large and capable as Macca would have solved them by now. If the problems are fundamental to the basic design, well...This year with the ban on in-season testing, getting it right the first time is critical. The time to get it right has come.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:03:10:17:46:43 by SonnyT.

i hate to admit it but what sonny t is saying is exactly right! to be honest no1 can be 100% right and all we will have all the answers by 29th march but atm....from testing times and the troubles and issues maca have been having...it doesnt look too good

I hope the boffins at Mclaren are laughing their 8ollocks off when they read these forums.

He who laughs last...........

HGW...do you have a YouTube link for htat?

">Funnily enough yes i have. And its got your name written all over.Please feel free to click this link.

SonnyT I agree with you 50% on the stuff u said. It seems you are well clued up on mclaren. I'm surprised you are not a fan...but then again you might just be a closet fan!

..If the problems were minor, then truly with the resources that we have, it wouldn't have been a problem for mclaren to sort out. It appears the problems are nothing but minor..whatever they are I think we will start off in the mid and slowly go up the grid.

As a fan it is only a wish that we are sandbagging...

The head however agrees that something is seriously not right.

After seeing Kova and now Lewis both have a full day with the newest aero package, which includes virtually every bit that could be called aero, I think the problem is huge.

Let's say you know you have a problem and you believe it to be aero or that it can be cured by aero fixes. So you fall back to a known level of acceptable downforce (the 2008 rear wing) and you set a baseline for grip, downforce and performance. Based on that data you set about redesigning your rear wing, diffuser, floor and front wing. You fit those new parts to the car, turn it over to your 2 drivers, one of whom is the current WDC, and VIOLA...no improvement.

What are you to make of that?

Where do you turn next?

Is the KERS in the wrong place, or is it too heavy? Does it mess up the balance of the car?

Is there too much weight bias fore/aft that cannot be overcome by shifting balast or increasing downforce?

Is the wheelbase the problem?

Should I scrap KERS, take it out of the car, for now and hope that I can get the balance right with 40-60 Kg of balast?

Will my young drivers crack under the pressure and expectations?

Design a new chassis to be introduced at the Spanish GP?

Waht to do?

Quote:

I'm surprised you are not a fan...but then again you might just be a closet fan!

I think he was a fan but got upset with Mclaren because Ron personally promised him a championship which didn't happen. He got so annoyed that he switched to Ferrari to try and stick up to Ron.


If Macca have got it wrong than so be it. One can only hope that they recover and do better next time.

In the last two days, Mclaren has upped the pace. I wouldnt be at all surprised if Brawn GP and Force India were testing parts for mclaren (hence sandbagging).

Lets hope I am right.

Highly unlikely in particular Brawn GP.They stated from last year they were going to focus on their 09 car and there performance in testing has looked very promising.

From what I understand Mclaren have had issues with their diffuser and rear wing. it seems though they have rectified the problem but it might take a few races before they can start being competetive.
Haug has made a statement stating that macca will be somewhere at the back in Melbourne.(Mind you I have spent $400 for a granstand seat)

I'm not to sure on the sanbagging theory.

Sandbagging is now just blind hope in the face of a torrent of contrary evidence. There'd be little to no point on McLaren's part in taking it to such an extreme. The car, without question, had problems. Whether those have been resolved as yet remains to be seen, although the Jerez test was most definitely a step in the right direction. The sheer volume of new parts that came to that test was testament to the determination of the team, and that is what will put the MP4-24 back at the sharp end of the grid before long.

Also highly unlikely, as Mocca said, that either of those teams were testing McLaren parts. Mercedes supply them customer engines, McLaren don't supply them customer chassis.

As to Haug's statement, and pretty much all the negativity with regards to Melbourne from the entire team, I think that is just playing down expectations so as to cover themselves in case something goes badly wrong. I predict both the cars will finish in points paying positions. I also think one of the anticipated front runners will prove a disappointment, and the McLaren as a result will seem better than expected. At the moment, with all the negative press the car has been receiving, its far easier and better PR wise for the team to underplay the cars ability, and have it be far better than that, than to say they are capable of challenging near the front and then finishing up 8th.

Like I said though, don't be expecting too much too soon with this car.

Well said Insane. I totally agree

Although we're not looking strong, they've probably slightly over-expressed their negativity to be 'covered' public relations wise.