Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
By Mark Andrew
August 8 2008
I want to look at why only Champions and winners are considered to be legends. Do you really have to win everything available in your respective sport to be classed as a legend? In fact, do you have to win anything at all? For me, legends come in many different forms. I don't believe that you have to be a champion to become a legend.
The word legend has been used all too often to describe champions and winners. There are examples of people who I think are legends in their own right who haven't won a thing. Then there are people who have won things that I consider a legend but another person wouldn't.
Jenson Button: The Legend Who Never Won a Title
I look upon Button as a legend. I may get some stick for this one, but here goes.
When Jenson entered the Formula One circus in the year 2000, everyone was prepared to see the best British F1 driver since Damon Hill and Nigel Mansell. That, however, never materialised, and Button still only has that one career win at the rain-soaked Hungarian GP of 2006 under his belt after eight years of racing.
- He has 1 career win.
- 15 podium finishes.
- Three pole positions.
- No fastest laps.
- And a not-all-that-impressive 232 career points all from 148 F1 races.
That surely is enough to deem him not a legend, right? Wrong!
Button, for me, is a legend because if it would have been me, I'd probably have retired by now and hung my head in shame. But he still turns up, week-in and week-out in a happy, optimistic frame of mind, and is dedicated to taking the Honda Racing F1 team back to the top end of the field where they were two years ago.
We regularly see him in an upbeat mood talking to Louise Goodman after some failure or another that's occurred to his car. He is never in a negative frame of mind.
He had offers to drive for other teams that may have given him a chance of a title fight. Rumour had it that it was McLaren-Mercedes who wanted him before signing Heikki Kovalainen, but he stayed put and is hell-bent on making Honda a force to be reckoned with again.
He could have jumped ship and gone straight to a better performing car and team. Some will wonder why he is so dedicated to his team, because Honda seem to be underachieving massively. By the time they are back up the top end again, it will be not far off retirement time for Button and his dream of being Formula 1 WDC could all be over.
Some thought that when traction control was removed from the cars for the 2008 season that we would see Button shine, that he may have an advantage over other drivers as his right foot is like traction control in itself—he is so smooth on the throttle when exiting corners. That hasn't really happened either, so it's just a poor car that he has to contend with.
Many people would say that his 'playboy' lifestyle has affected his on-track performances. That can't be true because the 'playboy' lifestyle would surely make a human more confident and more eager to impress—I think the case is more a mixture of rotten luck and poor performing cars.
So for his grit, determination, and will to fight even when he knows he probably won't win another race again - let alone a title - is why I consider Jenson Button to be a legend. It can't be easy to accept the position he is in.
The same goes for the rest of the guys at the back of the field. They are legendary the way they turn up and plug away at it, but drivers like Sutil are still young, they have a chance of a move to a bigger team in the future. Button, however, unfortunately doesn't have a lot of time left.
Maybe I'm crazy and the only one who considers Button to be legendary. In terms of winning, he is NOT legendary, but as I have said already, I don't think you have to be a champion to go down as a living legend. The man has a big heart and he wears it on the bonnet of his Honda all the time.
It would be such a shame to see such a talent disappear into the mire of forgotten drivers, the nearly-but-not-quite-there club, and believe me he is talented - he just never had the cars or opportunities to show us what he is really made of.
Britain's only hope of a WDC now lie solely on the shoulders of Lewis Hamilton. Now don't get me wrong, I like Heikki Kovalainen, but it would have been nice if Button and Hamilton were fighting for the title, both in a McLaren. Two British drivers in a team able to win a championship would have been a dream. It's a shame that move didn't happen.
So I pose this question to you all: Do you think one has to be a winner and champion to be seen in this light?
What do you all think of Jenson Button's will, grit, and determination? Is he a legend for that? Or is he a Formula 1 flop?
Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: RealHondaF1.com (IP Logged)
Date: 08/08/2008 09:50
Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Shepz (IP Logged)
Date: 08/08/2008 11:15
I'm with you. I vote LEGEND. Nice bloke, hugely talented and down to earth. Not manufactured and up his own.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Ben Auty (IP Logged)
Date: 08/08/2008 11:21
WOOOO HOOOO BLEACHER REPORT ! COME ON !
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: fredje (IP Logged)
Date: 08/08/2008 11:46
Im a huge button fan, so i obviously think he's great.
People that i consider as "a legend" are the senna and schumacher likes.
By this i don't think jenson is a legend (yet), while he can become one when honda makes championschip material next year.
At the moment i think there are only 3 potential legends on the current field; Vettel, Hamilton and Button
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:08:08:11:48:20 by fredje.
People that i consider as "a legend" are the senna and schumacher likes.
By this i don't think jenson is a legend (yet), while he can become one when honda makes championschip material next year.
At the moment i think there are only 3 potential legends on the current field; Vettel, Hamilton and Button
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:08:08:11:48:20 by fredje.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Stef (IP Logged)
Date: 08/08/2008 11:53
He may be a legend in England. But, that's it.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: markandrew (IP Logged)
Date: 08/08/2008 12:15
Fair Comments up to now . I Consider Senna and Schumacher Legends too .
But Jenson is Up there for me based on Grit And the way he never gives up until the race is over , he pushes himself to the limits , he wears his heart on the Honda ,
You never see him down as you do with many of the other drivers after retiring , he knows that one week your up the next you will be down .
His performance in Spain 08 says a lot about him , Honda dont have a Midfield car , they are almost a back Runner , Yet He still Brought home Points .
Same goes for Barrichello's Heroic Performance at Silverstone .
Its also Safe to say Vettel , Hamilton and JB are Possible future Legends .
Thanks guys .
By the way Thanks Ben Auty , Fellow Bleacher Creature ha ha .
But Jenson is Up there for me based on Grit And the way he never gives up until the race is over , he pushes himself to the limits , he wears his heart on the Honda ,
You never see him down as you do with many of the other drivers after retiring , he knows that one week your up the next you will be down .
His performance in Spain 08 says a lot about him , Honda dont have a Midfield car , they are almost a back Runner , Yet He still Brought home Points .
Same goes for Barrichello's Heroic Performance at Silverstone .
Its also Safe to say Vettel , Hamilton and JB are Possible future Legends .
Thanks guys .
By the way Thanks Ben Auty , Fellow Bleacher Creature ha ha .
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Hector Gomez (IP Logged)
Date: 08/08/2008 14:54
I'm with you Mark, Jenson deserves much more than an "quote" in the history of motor sport. Always remember the career in which held its damaged viewer with one hand and continued fighting, never surrendered ... so is he, that is his nature.
So, like him, Honda fans around the world will give up ... he is our inspiration
So, like him, Honda fans around the world will give up ... he is our inspiration
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: WILLIAMS-F1-Fan (IP Logged)
Date: 08/08/2008 16:31
he can be a legend like Gilles Villeneuve was... but he died.
but Jenson still has at least 6 more seasons in F1 which he can become a champion... hes still young right?
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but Jenson still has at least 6 more seasons in F1 which he can become a champion... hes still young right?
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Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Hector Gomez (IP Logged)
Date: 08/08/2008 17:47
He's young, he's on time to be a champion.
I think he'll never give up.
I think he'll never give up.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Tuscan Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 09/08/2008 11:48
Legend? Not even close.
Button's a good driver, but he's not done anything worth being labelled a legend for. He's never really performed beyond the car. He did well at Williams, but he's not really shone since then.
And he's hardly the most loyal of drivers, so there's no extra points there...
He's good but there plenty better.
Button's a good driver, but he's not done anything worth being labelled a legend for. He's never really performed beyond the car. He did well at Williams, but he's not really shone since then.
And he's hardly the most loyal of drivers, so there's no extra points there...
He's good but there plenty better.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: 70s fan (IP Logged)
Date: 09/08/2008 11:56
Button will probably be recorded in history along with most other F1 drivers as good but not a champion. He should be dominating Rubens by now regardless of how poor the car is. The idea he's somehow holding back because the car is poor holds no water.
If Button had the best car and a weak team mate he could be a WDC but faced with RK FA KR FM LH NH as team mates I now think he would struggle to dominate.
If Button had the best car and a weak team mate he could be a WDC but faced with RK FA KR FM LH NH as team mates I now think he would struggle to dominate.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: WILLIAMS-F1-Fan (IP Logged)
Date: 09/08/2008 21:22
makes no sence 70's dude
when he was at the brink of scoring points the car let him down, or he made a mistake... so he is driving beyond the car...
as for Rubens dominating... It looks that way in points standing right...
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when he was at the brink of scoring points the car let him down, or he made a mistake... so he is driving beyond the car...
as for Rubens dominating... It looks that way in points standing right...
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Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: 70s fan (IP Logged)
Date: 09/08/2008 21:57
Um not sure I understand driving in quite that way. No matter how good/bad the car the better driver will exploit the cars potential more than a poorer driver. The idea that Button is too good for the car does not make sense.
He has been in F1 for too long to show the signs of a true champion without getting the results that a potential champion might have done.
As for Rubens he's got luck a few times this year but like Coultard has had his day, Honda need to be looking for a new driver soon to replace Rubens.
He has been in F1 for too long to show the signs of a true champion without getting the results that a potential champion might have done.
As for Rubens he's got luck a few times this year but like Coultard has had his day, Honda need to be looking for a new driver soon to replace Rubens.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: WILLIAMS-F1-Fan (IP Logged)
Date: 09/08/2008 22:39
well he did beat all of his teamates hes had at BAR-Honda.
this will be his first faliure to do so.
as for Rubinho luck!
well I wish he had that at Ferrari or had signed with another team besides Ferrari...
Coulthard seams to have forgoten how to drive...
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this will be his first faliure to do so.
as for Rubinho luck!
well I wish he had that at Ferrari or had signed with another team besides Ferrari...
Coulthard seams to have forgoten how to drive...
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Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Dano (IP Logged)
Date: 10/08/2008 09:39
I think Jenson is one of the unsung hero's of Formula 1. It must be so frustrating for Jenson seeing Hamilton winning races and contending for the title, We have seen what he can do in a good car, eg 2004. He still has plenty of time on his side, after all he is only 28. His loyalty too is incredible, if what was said in the story is right that he passed up a ride with Mclaren to stay at Honda then he is as loyal as you can get. He has beaten all bar 2 of his teammates, so Jenson Button in my eyes you are a legend.
2010, Enter Lotus F1
2010, Enter Lotus F1
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Phil Huff (IP Logged)
Date: 10/08/2008 12:11
Quote:Dano
His loyalty too is incredible, if what was said in the story is right that he passed up a ride with Mclaren to stay at Honda then he is as loyal as you can get.
There's never been an offer from McLaren for Jenson Button's services. He had a single test with McLaren some years ago, but that's it.
He also signed a contract with Williams to race for them whilst still under contract with BAR. That ended up getting very messy, and Jenson was forced to drive for BAR.
At that point, he signed a contract with Williams again, this time to drive a year later. He then changed his mind, with Williams this time holding the rights to Button. That ended up getting very messy, and Jenson was forced to pay a shed load of cash to Williams in order to drive for Honda.
Jenson was then signed to an incredibly restrictive contract with Honda, with all future options being on Honda's side.
At the end of 2007, Jenson said "The car was a complete dog. I'm just not interested in racing like this any more. I remember after Hungary this year wanting to hit something. I'd won that same race 12 months previously and now I was there sitting in something which was undriveable. I have to start winning and if I don't then I have to be ruthless. There's an option in my contract which means we can all sit down and discuss the future at the end of the season. If things don't work out, that's exactly what I'll be doing."
Loyalty doesn't come in to racing. You've got a short career and need to make the most of it. Despite the current performance slump, Honda probably still represents the best long term option for Button, and that's why he's still here, but if a three year deal at McLaren or Ferrari was offered, do you think he'd stay at Honda...?
On a positive note, here's what Jacques Villeneuve said about Button early last year: "He's fast, strong, and nothing disturbs him, but he'll have to be in a position to take a shot at the championship if we're to see if he's as good as Alonso. That's highly probable, because he's at least as good as Kimi."
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: WILLIAMS-F1-Fan (IP Logged)
Date: 10/08/2008 14:14
I'm sorry but i doubt he'll be champion in a Honda car.
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Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: federica (IP Logged)
Date: 11/08/2008 18:33
jenson is THE LEGEND.
I think is easy to go on in f1 with a fast car,but we can't forget that there are a lot of f1 driver that had competitive cars but never won or won not enough for the car they had.
I'm Jenson fan because he has a lot of will to the best he can.
He's a winner. What he got, it's very hard.
[sorry for my english,I'm italian]
I think is easy to go on in f1 with a fast car,but we can't forget that there are a lot of f1 driver that had competitive cars but never won or won not enough for the car they had.
I'm Jenson fan because he has a lot of will to the best he can.
He's a winner. What he got, it's very hard.
[sorry for my english,I'm italian]
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: negotiator (IP Logged)
Date: 13/08/2008 17:22
his overrated overhyped and a very bad driver
barrichelllo will tell you his the easiest team mate his ever had
barrichelllo will tell you his the easiest team mate his ever had
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: No.1 Rubens fan (IP Logged)
Date: 14/08/2008 06:04
No, don't think Rubens would tell you that actually.
I think, but I'm not sure, Rubens's teamate was once Ivan Capelli at Jordan, who I believe has the shorest F1 career ever at 800 metres or something (can someone tell me if thats right). I think Jenson would be ranked second to Michael Schumacher as Rubens' fastest and best team-mates:
1. Michael Schumacher
2. Jenson Button
3. Eddie Irvine
4. Johnny Herbert
5. Martin Brundle
Thats my list.
I think, but I'm not sure, Rubens's teamate was once Ivan Capelli at Jordan, who I believe has the shorest F1 career ever at 800 metres or something (can someone tell me if thats right). I think Jenson would be ranked second to Michael Schumacher as Rubens' fastest and best team-mates:
1. Michael Schumacher
2. Jenson Button
3. Eddie Irvine
4. Johnny Herbert
5. Martin Brundle
Thats my list.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Phil Huff (IP Logged)
Date: 14/08/2008 11:02
Quote:No.1 Rubens fan
Rubens's teamate was once Ivan Capelli at Jordan, who I believe has the shorest F1 career ever at 800 metres or something (can someone tell me if thats right).
I can, and it's not right. Capelli started 93 Grands Prix, collecting 31 points in the process. He got his Leyton House car on the podium twice in 1988, and again in 1990. He was sacked by Ferrari in 1992, after partnering Jean Alesi, and joined Jordan for 1993.
He completed 2 racing laps in the Jordan in 1993, before Capelli and the team mutually agreed to part ways. Capelli lost his desire some time in 1992, and that contributed to his retirement.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: WILLIAMS-F1-Fan (IP Logged)
Date: 15/08/2008 00:11
he wasn't a bad driver...
how about Nicola Larini, what ever happened to him?
and why does Ferrari never put an Italian to race?
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how about Nicola Larini, what ever happened to him?
and why does Ferrari never put an Italian to race?
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Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: No.1 Rubens fan (IP Logged)
Date: 15/08/2008 08:19
Thanks Phil. Sorry all.
It wasn't Ivan Capelli it was Marco Apicella who has the shortest career in F1 after just one corner (800 metres). Incidentally, in his only F1 race (Italian GP 1993) he took out his team-mate Rubens and JJ Lehto. So I have to say he would be the worst team-mate of Rubens.
It wasn't Ivan Capelli it was Marco Apicella who has the shortest career in F1 after just one corner (800 metres). Incidentally, in his only F1 race (Italian GP 1993) he took out his team-mate Rubens and JJ Lehto. So I have to say he would be the worst team-mate of Rubens.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Neith (IP Logged)
Date: 15/08/2008 09:28
Quote:Honda-F1-Fan
how about Nicola Larini, what ever happened to him?
Larini drives a Chevy in WTCC
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: itsmin (IP Logged)
Date: 15/08/2008 10:53
I certainly wouldn't mark him as a loser, but I consider drivers who have a history of driving above the car they're in, legendary.
I know it's semantics, but that's just how I see it.
And no, I don't believe you need to be a champion to be remembered as one of the most talented drivers ever. I think of Gilles Villeneuve in particular. Yes, I know, quite an odd comparison/complement, but I really do think highly of Jenson.
I know it's semantics, but that's just how I see it.
And no, I don't believe you need to be a champion to be remembered as one of the most talented drivers ever. I think of Gilles Villeneuve in particular. Yes, I know, quite an odd comparison/complement, but I really do think highly of Jenson.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: negotiator (IP Logged)
Date: 15/08/2008 12:02
button aint even a top 15 driver if he cant beat a old man who can he beat?
sato is a exception
sato is a exception
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: 70s fan (IP Logged)
Date: 15/08/2008 13:00
Quote:button aint even a top 15 driver if he cant beat a old man who can he beat?
How about JV even though JV had no1 status, exclusive use of the spare car, the best engineers, and a car designed around him etc.
Button may not be the greatest driver in the world but he's not that far away. Not a legend maybe but not a loser either unlike some.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: freedom102 (IP Logged)
Date: 15/08/2008 15:38
Quote:Button has out-raced Rubens for the past 2 seasons.negotiator
button aint even a top 15 driver if he cant beat a old man who can he beat?
moreover Rubens isnt slow by any means.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Demented (IP Logged)
Date: 15/08/2008 18:40
Jenson is a good driver, probably up in the top 4 of today's grid.
However he is not likely to become a legend anytime soon unless his situation changes and he get's a car worthy of his talents, then he can either prove you right or wrong.
Heres a list of some of the drivers I would consider legends, but it's a personal list and I would expect everybody to have a different opinion.
Juan Manuel Fangio
Stirling Moss
Gilles Villeneuve
James Hunt (not only for his driving)
Ayrton Senna
Michael Schumacher
Ronnie Peterson
Jochen Rindt
However he is not likely to become a legend anytime soon unless his situation changes and he get's a car worthy of his talents, then he can either prove you right or wrong.
Heres a list of some of the drivers I would consider legends, but it's a personal list and I would expect everybody to have a different opinion.
Juan Manuel Fangio
Stirling Moss
Gilles Villeneuve
James Hunt (not only for his driving)
Ayrton Senna
Michael Schumacher
Ronnie Peterson
Jochen Rindt
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: gturner (IP Logged)
Date: 16/08/2008 04:15
Quote:button aint even a top 15 driver if he cant beat a old man who can he beat?
He's outscored Rubens 65 to 41 and Phil has posted stats in the past that have shown that Rubens and Jenson are essentially even with Jenson being slightly ahead, so you can't reallty suggest that he's losing to the "old man." Furthermore, there has to be a reason why Barrichello has been around so long, so I would hardly dismiss him. Honda has two excellent drivers who are more than capable of winning races if they were to be given a car that is of the same caliper as the frontrunners. I think we're going too far to call him a legend, but Button certainly is a top tier driver.
"Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you."-Jeremy Clarkson
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: r1tsa (IP Logged)
Date: 16/08/2008 15:32
Well, I'm a big JB fan, not because he is a British or drive for Honda. He certainly is NOT a loser. I think he has a lot of 'wins' because of his motivate and tenacity. I beliеve he has a experience and talent(a lot of) to win a WDC, so all he need is a better car. I have faith in that Honda will have a better car next year and I belive in Jenson's success.
He e is a legend in his own way.
He e is a legend in his own way.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Dano (IP Logged)
Date: 17/08/2008 09:53
Quote:negotiator
button aint even a top 15 driver if he cant beat a old man who can he beat?
sato is a exception
He didn't just beat Sato, he thrashed him.
2004 JB 85 points- Sato 34 points
2005 JB 37 points- Sato 1 point
Now I know that points don't count for everything, but Jenson thrashed him in other area's. I am being kind to Sato by not posting the other area's up there and Sato is not the only teammate Jenson has beaten. He beat Trulli while he was at Renault (Not in qualifying, but in the races) and who could forget Jenson beating his world champion teammate Villeneuve. So if you are saying that Jenson struggles against his teammates, I beg to differ.
2010, Enter Lotus F1
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: negotiator (IP Logged)
Date: 19/08/2008 06:18
jesus christ he thrashed sato 2 years on the bounce
he needs a ferrari contract with that sort of performance.
i'll tell you who i think button will beat in the current field
coulthard
sutil
piquet
roseberg
nakajima
kova
barrichello-maybe not dunno
fisi-hard to say but back in the days fisi owned him
bourdais
glock- maybe in the first half of the season, but now glock has found the speed to thrash trulli who is no slouch.
button does not stand a chance against kimi. hami, trulli, alonso, massa,vettel, webber, heidi and kubika
if button wants a wdc he has to have a car thats 2 tenths faster and a team mate whose 1 of the worst on the grid
he needs a ferrari contract with that sort of performance.
i'll tell you who i think button will beat in the current field
coulthard
sutil
piquet
roseberg
nakajima
kova
barrichello-maybe not dunno
fisi-hard to say but back in the days fisi owned him
bourdais
glock- maybe in the first half of the season, but now glock has found the speed to thrash trulli who is no slouch.
button does not stand a chance against kimi. hami, trulli, alonso, massa,vettel, webber, heidi and kubika
if button wants a wdc he has to have a car thats 2 tenths faster and a team mate whose 1 of the worst on the grid
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: fredje (IP Logged)
Date: 19/08/2008 09:53
Quote:negotiator
jesus christ he thrashed sato 2 years on the bounce
he needs a ferrari contract with that sort of performance.
i'll tell you who i think button will beat in the current field
coulthard
sutil
piquet
roseberg
nakajima
kova
barrichello-maybe not dunno
fisi-hard to say but back in the days fisi owned him
bourdais
glock- maybe in the first half of the season, but now glock has found the speed to thrash trulli who is no slouch.
button does not stand a chance against kimi. hami, trulli, alonso, massa,vettel, webber, heidi and kubika
if button wants a wdc he has to have a car thats 2 tenths faster and a team mate whose 1 of the worst on the grid
Your rating of drivers isn't so great, just rate the drivers in the top teams as great like everyone does, while most of them perform bad.
Let's take heikke for example, he's like 0,5-0,8 second A LAP slower then lewis. So put him in a red bull, webber will be fighting for points while he's battling it out with force india.
Definately seems like a driver who will crush jenson,
only 5 drivers wich will give button a hard time; Webber, Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and Kubica
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: freedom102 (IP Logged)
Date: 19/08/2008 13:57
Quote:just ignore this guy he is a die-hard toyota fan wifout any evidence to proof whatever he says.fredjeQuote:negotiator
jesus christ he thrashed sato 2 years on the bounce
he needs a ferrari contract with that sort of performance.
i'll tell you who i think button will beat in the current field
coulthard
sutil
piquet
roseberg
nakajima
kova
barrichello-maybe not dunno
fisi-hard to say but back in the days fisi owned him
bourdais
glock- maybe in the first half of the season, but now glock has found the speed to thrash trulli who is no slouch.
button does not stand a chance against kimi. hami, trulli, alonso, massa,vettel, webber, heidi and kubika
if button wants a wdc he has to have a car thats 2 tenths faster and a team mate whose 1 of the worst on the grid
Your rating of drivers isn't so great, just rate the drivers in the top teams as great like everyone does, while most of them perform bad.
Let's take heikke for example, he's like 0,5-0,8 second A LAP slower then lewis. So put him in a red bull, webber will be fighting for points while he's battling it out with force india.
Definately seems like a driver who will crush jenson,
only 5 drivers wich will give button a hard time; Webber, Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and Kubica
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: negotiator (IP Logged)
Date: 19/08/2008 17:49
i would rate button if he and should of won a race in the 2nd fastest car in 2004
but he didnt ccause he aint fast enough wereas kimi trulli and jpm all won a race with inferior machinary
good drivers win at least 1 race in inferior machine.
and dont tell me he won hungary in wets when the finishing order looked dodgy with no schumi and alonso getting wheel nut fallen of when cruising to victory
all im saying is the hype does not justify the talent
but he didnt ccause he aint fast enough wereas kimi trulli and jpm all won a race with inferior machinary
good drivers win at least 1 race in inferior machine.
and dont tell me he won hungary in wets when the finishing order looked dodgy with no schumi and alonso getting wheel nut fallen of when cruising to victory
all im saying is the hype does not justify the talent
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: gturner (IP Logged)
Date: 19/08/2008 19:13
If you're not going to give Button credit for Hungary, then you can't give Trulli and JPM credit for their wins in 2004, either. Trulli won when both Schumacher and Alonso had trouble, while JPM's win came in a race which saw Schumacher start 18th and Button DNF. The only driver to win in an inferior car without help from Ferrari issues was Kimi, and last I checked he is regarded as one of the two or three best drivers in the field. Fact of the matter is that there were only 3 races not won by a Ferrari, and Button failed to finish two of those while finishing 2nd in the other.
Also, using your logic, we can't really rate Webber and Heidfeld either, since they've been around a long time and haven't really even put themselves in any position to win.
As for Trulli being listed as one of the drivers ahead of Button, well, what does "Trulli Train" bring to mind? Sure the guy can do one quick lap and then slowly fall back, but that hardly makes him great.
And how can you say you don't know if Button can beat Barrichello? They are in the same car!!!
As far as I can tell, Kimi, Kubica, Hamilton and Alonso are at the top in terms of pure driving talent. Button is right in there with or slightly ahead of Webber, Heidfeld, and Massa.
"Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you."-Jeremy Clarkson
Also, using your logic, we can't really rate Webber and Heidfeld either, since they've been around a long time and haven't really even put themselves in any position to win.
As for Trulli being listed as one of the drivers ahead of Button, well, what does "Trulli Train" bring to mind? Sure the guy can do one quick lap and then slowly fall back, but that hardly makes him great.
And how can you say you don't know if Button can beat Barrichello? They are in the same car!!!
As far as I can tell, Kimi, Kubica, Hamilton and Alonso are at the top in terms of pure driving talent. Button is right in there with or slightly ahead of Webber, Heidfeld, and Massa.
"Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you."-Jeremy Clarkson
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: bp (IP Logged)
Date: 08/09/2008 20:44
So Honda trying to get Alonso could this be last season at Maclaren all over again.
Jenson in a good car can perform & who knows what he would do in a ferrari? stick him in 1 & find out then ya will know.
Maclaren should have him along side hamilton two drivers who would not get on each others nervs but would dominate.
Jens get out of honda while ya got time & try summut else.
Jenson in a good car can perform & who knows what he would do in a ferrari? stick him in 1 & find out then ya will know.
Maclaren should have him along side hamilton two drivers who would not get on each others nervs but would dominate.
Jens get out of honda while ya got time & try summut else.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: RA106 (IP Logged)
Date: 09/09/2008 00:23
Quote:i can see your point but if you look performence wise he was right up there and mostly on the days that honda were quick the ferrari was quicker they just couldnt be beaten. Jenson himself admitted that the car was no way in touch with the ferraris. Jense hasnt had the machinery to prove himself just like a lot of drivers out there thus gets knocked down.i would rate button if he and should of won a race in the 2nd fastest car in 2004
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: negotiator (IP Logged)
Date: 13/09/2008 04:01
good point ra106
but name me a single number 1 driver in the 2nd fastest car that never won a race?
if you cant win in a 2004 honda then you have no chance in hell
now its obvious why he never won in 2004 cause sato made him look awesome, now that his up against grandpa rubens his looking a bit sh*T.
but name me a single number 1 driver in the 2nd fastest car that never won a race?
if you cant win in a 2004 honda then you have no chance in hell
now its obvious why he never won in 2004 cause sato made him look awesome, now that his up against grandpa rubens his looking a bit sh*T.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Dano (IP Logged)
Date: 13/09/2008 04:07
Actually had Jenson not had the grid penalty in Germany 2004 he would have won. Getting 85 points in one season is something that a lot of drivers haven't done. 10 podiums too, I would say he did pretty well.
2010, Enter Lotus F1
2010, Enter Lotus F1
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: negotiator (IP Logged)
Date: 14/09/2008 00:44
exactly thats how good the car was 85 points and 10 podiums wow!!!!!!!!
but he never won a race with that car, how can you not win with a car that has notched up 85 points easily?
but he never won a race with that car, how can you not win with a car that has notched up 85 points easily?
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Dano (IP Logged)
Date: 14/09/2008 02:57
May I also remind you that Alonso did not win that year ether. He is a world champion and his teammate won a race, Raikkonen won a race and Montoya won a race. The last two were in worse cars than him. Sometimes it is the luck of the draw.
2010, Enter Lotus F1
2010, Enter Lotus F1
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: negotiator (IP Logged)
Date: 14/09/2008 20:07
grandpa barri owns button again the whole monza weekend
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: Phil Huff (IP Logged)
Date: 14/09/2008 22:02
Quote:negotiator
grandpa barri owns button again the whole monza weekend
I really don't care which of our drivers performs better - I'd rather see them both performing equally well. If only there was some kind of way of proving that could happen.
Ooh, look...
Average Qualifying Position
14.43 Button
14.71 Barrichello (difference of just 0.28)
Average Finishing Position
11.70 Barrichello
12.10 Button (difference of just 0.40)
Incidentally, I notice from the official results that Button ended the Italian Grand Prix in a higher position than Barrichello. Did you watch the race?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:09:15:08:49:49 by Phil Huff.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: 70s fan (IP Logged)
Date: 14/09/2008 22:21
Negotiator also thinks Ferrari employ duffers and that half the grid are better than them. I think Trulli is one of the few not on Negotiators hit list.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: negotiator (IP Logged)
Date: 15/09/2008 00:49
hell i even think button would of done a much better job then massa and kimi for ferrari he would of had the motivation and probablyy be leading the wdc
the amount of mistakes the ferrari drivers have made is meant for rookies and the snail like pace from kimi is laughable especially since his on 50 million dollars.
Hey this year button has been poor and its largely down to his motivation, like his given up.
dont get me wrong button has been poor this year but at least he has a very good excuse for it but the ferrari drivers have been totally useless
the amount of mistakes the ferrari drivers have made is meant for rookies and the snail like pace from kimi is laughable especially since his on 50 million dollars.
Hey this year button has been poor and its largely down to his motivation, like his given up.
dont get me wrong button has been poor this year but at least he has a very good excuse for it but the ferrari drivers have been totally useless
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: No.1 Rubens fan (IP Logged)
Date: 15/09/2008 08:40
Well Button did finish ahead of Rubens but only after they put Rubens on slicks on a wet track and he had to slow down. I think if Rubens stayed on the wet tyre he would have been in front of Jenson at the end by the same margin he was in front when he pitted.
But I agree that the difference between the drivers is very very small and all we need is a good car.
But I agree that the difference between the drivers is very very small and all we need is a good car.
Re: Jenson Button: Legend or loser?
Posted by: civic06R (IP Logged)
Date: 15/09/2008 09:51
I have to agree with negotiator that Button is demotivated and therefore having a poor year.
On the other hand, why blame him? Why say he's not a good driver because of this?
You say yourself nego, he'd be doing a better job than Massa or Kimi at Ferrari. We can't really know, but that's the overall "feeling".
I believe that even the fact that Rubens is beating him for the first time can be attributed to this. At the very least, Rubens has peripheral reasons to race: to extend his record of the most GPs and to earn a contract for next year. Rubens knows that if somebody like Alonso comes along, it will be him that gets terminated, not Button...
Button on the other hand... He's been in a joke of a car for two seasons now. He's not worried about his contract and he doesn't need to prove himself like the many rookies in F1.
In fact, the only thing that can motivate Button now is a chance to win the WDC. If you ask me, I'd dare say that his stance is in fact HEALTHY given his situation.
The entire team is now focused on 2009 and Button is just showing up like a professional, driving the pig to the finish line until the end of the season. His results do not mirror his ability. Button is waiting for good car. Give him that and he'll get serious again...
As a last note: imagine Kimi driving the RA-108 at this point, when he's been a world champion and driven a Ferrari and a McLaren before. How well do you think he'd do? What would that mean for his driving ability? You see what I mean?
On the other hand, why blame him? Why say he's not a good driver because of this?
You say yourself nego, he'd be doing a better job than Massa or Kimi at Ferrari. We can't really know, but that's the overall "feeling".
I believe that even the fact that Rubens is beating him for the first time can be attributed to this. At the very least, Rubens has peripheral reasons to race: to extend his record of the most GPs and to earn a contract for next year. Rubens knows that if somebody like Alonso comes along, it will be him that gets terminated, not Button...
Button on the other hand... He's been in a joke of a car for two seasons now. He's not worried about his contract and he doesn't need to prove himself like the many rookies in F1.
In fact, the only thing that can motivate Button now is a chance to win the WDC. If you ask me, I'd dare say that his stance is in fact HEALTHY given his situation.
The entire team is now focused on 2009 and Button is just showing up like a professional, driving the pig to the finish line until the end of the season. His results do not mirror his ability. Button is waiting for good car. Give him that and he'll get serious again...
As a last note: imagine Kimi driving the RA-108 at this point, when he's been a world champion and driven a Ferrari and a McLaren before. How well do you think he'd do? What would that mean for his driving ability? You see what I mean?