Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
What a time!
By Grockle
May 7 2012
Positive and rosey to the nth degree? Never sees the dark clouds looming? Always attacks those who give an "alternative" view? Uncompromising in supporting the club? Somerset CCC lackey? Corporate Man? Lots of names, accusations and "insults". I'll always tell you what I think about a situation. Here it is for the present. Take it. Leave it. Ignore it. Agree with it. Grockles is about free speech and here's mine.
When we look back at postings over the last few years there are some themes that keep appearing. One specific one is;
"Why don't we produce young pace bowlers? Why are we useless at producing young pace bowlers? Give the young guys a chance! We must allow our Academy players opportunities!"
They've been dealt with at the time but the moment the opportunity presents itself what do we hear? "We should have kept the old Blokes" " We are so lacking in first class experience". That comes from bringing through the youngsters guys and gals. The timetable may have been shunted a little by circumstances but at least there were young players available to fill the gaps because the Academy has been producing them for that purpose.
A few years ago now Brian Rose nailed Somerset colours to a mast. Somerset was going to invest in its Academy players for a number of reasons, financial and cricket ones. Well except for a few exceptions that people might identify he has kept to that policy. He has bought in when a gap has been identified - Philander was such a gap. He has gone to the domestic market when the quality of what was on offer has been better - Steve Kirby, Nick Compton, George Dockrell and at the time Gemaal Hussain. Shahzad might be a short term option in this case.
He has looked to kolpaks when we have needed quality and /or experience but has bought sparingly and only if the team was improved by the addition. Zander de Bruyn was such.
To keep this policy moving he has had to provide opportunities where players coming through were pushing for the places of players possibly on their way out. Ben Phillips wanted two years - the club could see one and possibly not all of that. Charl Willoughby was showing signs of waning ability in important areas and also wanted two years. Both would have given their all for the club but may not have stood the pace and would have taken places that Dibble, Hussain and possibly Gregory were looking to come into. Would a fully fit Adam Dibble have been willing to wait until 2014 for faith to be shown in him regularly on a Somerset stage? Big decisions, arguments on both sides, but the decision fitting with the policy clearly stated by the Director and applauded by the majority of Grockles posters at the time it was stated, at the meeting and on the forum.
Now we find ourselves in 2012 with injuries in major areas. Personally I think that is the area for discussion about Somerset policy. Didn't we really know the nature of the skipper's injury? Or Gemaal's injury? How many of these were avoidable in terms of losing time during the season?
But they have happened and now the hindsight brigade are out in force criticising the 'cover' for these players and seeing Charl for one as the solution to our bowling woes... really? How?
We had and have cover. Kirby, Philander and Dibble plus Pete Trego and George Dockrell were covered by Hussain, Gregory, Meschede and Waller.
The batting cover was sparse and identified as such, however the resources available to cover it were also sparse and coule not be international because of the gap in the bowling so very well filled by VP. But Lewis and Craig were available for batting gaps and Alex Barrow was also ready with Chris Jones coming in later in the season if needed.
The hole when it came was big but we have big bats in many places and loads of unfulfilled potential that could be exploited.
The worrying area of cover was the late season keeper spot if hopes went to plan... that is still an unresolved issue.
Low levels of experience? Well when you are developing an academy side that goes with the territory. However would anyone be stepping into the places left empty as a total debutant? Hadn't all the guys named had first team experience in the last couple of years? Wasn't that part of the plan? Weren't some of them really ready to take on more responsibility?
Gamble? Yes but not one the supporters were unaware of. We debated long and hard about the domestic and kolpak cover and mostly accepted that it a) was not there or b) did not improve the quality particularly of what we had. Neither of Rose's conditions were particularly filled and newbie opportunities would also be minimised at critical times for some player development.
I wonder who would be posting about that if a kolpak had been brought in, under-performed but kept a young Somerset man out?
Alfonso - the South African Titan, one of the best T20 bowlers in the world, the captain of our CL semi final team. Is he unfaithful to the county? Another area of debate but not an area of poor clarity. We know what he is doing, we know when he is doing it, most of us understand why he is doing it and so does the club. He is here to do his primary job for us at the start of the competition he is famous for. He is not the VC (unless it is only when he is here) as far as I am personally aware but I do know - and most others do in their hearts - that we will get 100% of Thomas' efforts during his time with us. IMHO the criticism of him comes from frustration of not having him all the time but the club has compromised and we get him most of the time. Other actions could have forced him out completely and then the club would face the same frustration because he was playing for someone else against us... Somerset can rarely win in this position that is not of their making.
Is our 2012 season over? Well if it is, welcome to Division 2 of the Championship.
We talked last year about whether that was a year of trophy hunting or team development. It became a little bit of both. The events that are mostly beyond our control and are also part of everyday life in professional sport have probably put paid to the ultimate goal of most Somerset supporters. I challenge anyone to provide a positive alternative strategy that Brian could have employed, (without extensive hindsight helping) in late 2011 that would have changed our situation significantly now in that regard. The loss of our skipper and more dynamic opener, plus the loss of most of our first team and part of our second team bowling attack in the first month of the season was not predictable and hardly 'coverable'. Yet we have ONLY used two debutants.
Our short form prospects are more interesting and far from over as of yet. More frustration has shown itself at the constantly shifting politics of international cricket and the effect it has had on our 5 possible T20 'visitors'. We may end up with 1 - though even he isn't certain. We still have a chance to bolster the team with a second international signing for the June to September section and we will welcome back Alf.
This is not going to be an easy season. It will probably be a frustrating one but it also has the chance of being a very satisfying period should some of the younger members of the side take the opening in front of them and stride through earlier than many would have predicted. We are not dead and buried but we are not bursting with healthy vitality just yet either. There is presently little gloss to put on things though what there is makes the deep black painted by some on the situation at least a little shinier.
It's a little less predictable... but isn't that a little more exciting as well? We shall all see won't we.....
Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockles.com (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 09:07
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:09:10:07:30 by Grockle.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:09:10:07:30 by Grockle.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 09:37
Well said Grockle - I stand "Four Square" with you (Clarence? Why do we say "Four Square??"). Or at least 3 and a half square because we don't always agree! Nevertheless well argued - afterall it is only your opinion IMO!!!
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 09:46
Sorry, but there is no 'hindsight brigade.'
Many commented on how thin the squad was during the winter.
Many commented on how thin the squad was during the winter.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 09:58
We appeared to take a policy decision to run with a small squad, with no experienced players in reserve.
One thing that you need to take into account in following such a policy is the fitness records of the members of that squad.
Unfortunately, in respect of the bowling guys like Hussain and Dibble do not have strong fitness records. From a fitness stand-point you may well get more games in one season out of one Charl Willoughby than you would Hussain and Dibble combined.
One of the points, really, is that until Friday night, when Joverton joined the ranks of the wounded, we actually have only four players that are actually injured. It's hardly the Somme. And only two of those players are proven first-team forces at CC level, albeit two very good ones.
I would say that one thing that should probably have happened last season - if possible - is that some of these younger players should have been sent out on loan. There were some calls here for that to happen with Max at the time.
It's possible that Brian tried this but that nobody wanted to borrow any of them, I guess.
One thing that you need to take into account in following such a policy is the fitness records of the members of that squad.
Unfortunately, in respect of the bowling guys like Hussain and Dibble do not have strong fitness records. From a fitness stand-point you may well get more games in one season out of one Charl Willoughby than you would Hussain and Dibble combined.
One of the points, really, is that until Friday night, when Joverton joined the ranks of the wounded, we actually have only four players that are actually injured. It's hardly the Somme. And only two of those players are proven first-team forces at CC level, albeit two very good ones.
I would say that one thing that should probably have happened last season - if possible - is that some of these younger players should have been sent out on loan. There were some calls here for that to happen with Max at the time.
It's possible that Brian tried this but that nobody wanted to borrow any of them, I guess.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 10:00
Yes there is and you are part of it I'm afraid in my opinion.
You state things as if Rose should have known them and catered for them. The loss of this amount of bowlers could not have been covered for with experienced players and suggesting it could involves assuming he knew/should have predicted things that he simply would not have done given realistic expectations...sorry to me that is hindsight.
But why don't you discuss something else. You know my opinions of some of your criticisms....look for something new. You read all that and can only come back with what you see as a personal comment on you? Well done. You agree with the rest I assume?
You state things as if Rose should have known them and catered for them. The loss of this amount of bowlers could not have been covered for with experienced players and suggesting it could involves assuming he knew/should have predicted things that he simply would not have done given realistic expectations...sorry to me that is hindsight.
But why don't you discuss something else. You know my opinions of some of your criticisms....look for something new. You read all that and can only come back with what you see as a personal comment on you? Well done. You agree with the rest I assume?
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 10:11
Did I say I saw it as a 'personal comment to me'?
I assumed that a 'brigade,' comprised more than one person.
Hussain and Dibble have both had fitness problems. So expecting them to stay fit is probably like Liverpool FC expecting to get a full season out of Steven Gerrard. We also already knew that Lewis was coming off a horrible back injury and that Marcus had a somewhat unstable ankle that needed to be braced.
I just think that if (for whatever reason) you are going to take a policy decision to go with a small squad then you need to ensure that you are not counting on guys like Dibble and Hussain that have suspect fitness records.
The bigger the squad you have, the more you can afford the odd guy with a suspect injury record.
I assumed that a 'brigade,' comprised more than one person.
Hussain and Dibble have both had fitness problems. So expecting them to stay fit is probably like Liverpool FC expecting to get a full season out of Steven Gerrard. We also already knew that Lewis was coming off a horrible back injury and that Marcus had a somewhat unstable ankle that needed to be braced.
I just think that if (for whatever reason) you are going to take a policy decision to go with a small squad then you need to ensure that you are not counting on guys like Dibble and Hussain that have suspect fitness records.
The bigger the squad you have, the more you can afford the odd guy with a suspect injury record.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Mike TA1 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 10:12
Not everybody post with hindsight some do some don’t.
Hands up all those who thought at the end of last season that Marcus should have had something done to his ankle during the winter.
At the press call when I had only fifteen players to take photos of I was concerned then how small the squad was. Just minus Alfonso Thomas and our overseas player who can’t play in all matches.
How many of that fifteen are not fully fit or not fit to play or even not available.
A Dibble, A Barrow, C Jones, J Hussain, M Trescothick, you can add to that some who may not be available in other matches (maybe) N Compton, J Buttler and C Kieswetter.
That will get the anti negative brigade out in force.
It's a matter of opinion isn't it?
Edit - wrong word
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:07:10:16:12 by Mike TA1.
Hands up all those who thought at the end of last season that Marcus should have had something done to his ankle during the winter.
At the press call when I had only fifteen players to take photos of I was concerned then how small the squad was. Just minus Alfonso Thomas and our overseas player who can’t play in all matches.
How many of that fifteen are not fully fit or not fit to play or even not available.
A Dibble, A Barrow, C Jones, J Hussain, M Trescothick, you can add to that some who may not be available in other matches (maybe) N Compton, J Buttler and C Kieswetter.
That will get the anti negative brigade out in force.
It's a matter of opinion isn't it?
Edit - wrong word
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:07:10:16:12 by Mike TA1.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 10:16
The experience aspect was a gamble and it isn't a small squad by the definition of your county core from some other thread.
I won't go through the names again but it included
2 keepers - both top 6 batsmen
5 out and out batsmen with one to join that group in the second half of the season
3 batting pace allrounders
2 spinners with a third within the batting if necessary
an international - in our case a pace bowler but with an option for the second half of the season not yet finalised
3 pace bowlers with pace backup in the allrounder section
All these players with some first team experience and 8 probable first team regulars with considerable amounts (not including George's one day and T20 international experience in that)
As we've agreed before that seems to be 16 - the county core you identified - don't have much information about what is outside that for our competitors but we have ahd to dip into that with the Overton's as other counties would have to if they lost 5 of their core in a month. It is no smaller than others but it lacks extensive experience. However it is much younger and does have first team experience outside of this season - it therefore has the prospect of being a more stable unit for a longer period of time. Somerset's squad is NOT a short term fix. Changing it in the way you have suggested simply patches it for a while but does not provide that long term continuity that we will require.
I won't go through the names again but it included
2 keepers - both top 6 batsmen
5 out and out batsmen with one to join that group in the second half of the season
3 batting pace allrounders
2 spinners with a third within the batting if necessary
an international - in our case a pace bowler but with an option for the second half of the season not yet finalised
3 pace bowlers with pace backup in the allrounder section
All these players with some first team experience and 8 probable first team regulars with considerable amounts (not including George's one day and T20 international experience in that)
As we've agreed before that seems to be 16 - the county core you identified - don't have much information about what is outside that for our competitors but we have ahd to dip into that with the Overton's as other counties would have to if they lost 5 of their core in a month. It is no smaller than others but it lacks extensive experience. However it is much younger and does have first team experience outside of this season - it therefore has the prospect of being a more stable unit for a longer period of time. Somerset's squad is NOT a short term fix. Changing it in the way you have suggested simply patches it for a while but does not provide that long term continuity that we will require.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 10:26
Whoops I missed Alf to join the squad and make 17 from June.
You make a lot of the injuries now they have happened AG. Again... please give me the names of the alternatives that did not have the same kind of injury records we could have brought in. We've been looking at possible loan players... they all have suspect injury records... Charl was suffering more injuries than previously. Steve had an injury record. Shahzad has an injury record.
Seam bowlers have injury records....we also have a record of keeping our bowlers fit that goes back more than the odd month.
Was it a gamble? Yep it always is.
Was there an alternative? Not really?
Was it highly likely in the many scenarios you seem to have looked at in detail that Rose didn't in the winter that all our injury aspects would appear at the same time and in the period when SA would impose llimits on Philander AND Alf would not be available?
Well you tell me.
Mike if you read the piece I do mention that the one area I would like answers about is how much did we actually know about Marcus' injury. Why was the surgeon surprised by what he found when he went in after such extensive investigation and the decision not to operate in the winter. It's a definite point of enquiry.
You make a lot of the injuries now they have happened AG. Again... please give me the names of the alternatives that did not have the same kind of injury records we could have brought in. We've been looking at possible loan players... they all have suspect injury records... Charl was suffering more injuries than previously. Steve had an injury record. Shahzad has an injury record.
Seam bowlers have injury records....we also have a record of keeping our bowlers fit that goes back more than the odd month.
Was it a gamble? Yep it always is.
Was there an alternative? Not really?
Was it highly likely in the many scenarios you seem to have looked at in detail that Rose didn't in the winter that all our injury aspects would appear at the same time and in the period when SA would impose llimits on Philander AND Alf would not be available?
Well you tell me.
Mike if you read the piece I do mention that the one area I would like answers about is how much did we actually know about Marcus' injury. Why was the surgeon surprised by what he found when he went in after such extensive investigation and the decision not to operate in the winter. It's a definite point of enquiry.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Botham (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 10:27
I have clamoured for a strike bowler, who I think should be an overseas player, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to suggest whom. We have tended to look like we couldn't bowl sides out twice for two seasons.
We keep hearing about how the team didn't bowl in the right areas, so why not?
Is the current management team the best we can hope for and are the tactics right for who we currently have available?
I'm not criticizing, just asking some questions, like Grockle is.
With all this rain it's difficult to think positively about cricket, but I'm sure that when the sun eventually shines and temperatures increase, things will pick up.
I used to think I knew a bit about cricket, but judging by teams' lack of success in the Fantasy League, maybe I should stick to Bell-ringing and Bridge.
We keep hearing about how the team didn't bowl in the right areas, so why not?
Is the current management team the best we can hope for and are the tactics right for who we currently have available?
I'm not criticizing, just asking some questions, like Grockle is.
With all this rain it's difficult to think positively about cricket, but I'm sure that when the sun eventually shines and temperatures increase, things will pick up.
I used to think I knew a bit about cricket, but judging by teams' lack of success in the Fantasy League, maybe I should stick to Bell-ringing and Bridge.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 11:00
I think the reality is Grockle that, during the winter, some said they were concerned about the experience/proven depth of the squad. Many others said they had no such concerns.
Those who had concerns in the winter are simply repeating them now. It is only if those that said they had no concerns in the winter are now turning round and saying otherwise that the 'hindsight,' charge could really stick.
You also make the point about people calling for youngsters to be blooded. That has an element of truth. I was one of those people - but that was when we were bottom of Div Two and so I could see no further point in persisting with experienced players that had got us into that position. When you are in that position, why not throw in as much youth as possible?
When you have first division status to protect, though, I think things are somewhat different.
People are now saying that having to play the youngsters now will stand us in great stead for the future. But such logic seems to me to rest on an assumption that these are the 'Busby Babes,' or something. If they were that then guys like Big Ben and Willo would have been packed off to the seconds before they were allowed to leave the club. I cannot believe that Brian would not have found a first-team place before now for any young player that he considered to have exceptional potential.
When we were in Div Two we did throw a fair few youngsters in in the end. And I'm not sure that I can see a definitive reason to expect the outcome of this exercise to be any different this time around, compared to then. If you look back to those guys you could argue we got one or two long-term first-teamers. I would say Suppiah. Some might say Hildreth though I think he was already through. Otherwise? We developed two guys who have made good careers for themselves elsewhere - Wes and G M Andrew - and then the rest have either moved on without much distinction or are now out of cricket.
In the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, my current working assumption is that we will see similar results from this crop. The trick is to avoid the drop whilst these guys develop - otherwise we'll find we've developed guys to be poached by sides from the higher division.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:07:11:04:47 by AGod.
Those who had concerns in the winter are simply repeating them now. It is only if those that said they had no concerns in the winter are now turning round and saying otherwise that the 'hindsight,' charge could really stick.
You also make the point about people calling for youngsters to be blooded. That has an element of truth. I was one of those people - but that was when we were bottom of Div Two and so I could see no further point in persisting with experienced players that had got us into that position. When you are in that position, why not throw in as much youth as possible?
When you have first division status to protect, though, I think things are somewhat different.
People are now saying that having to play the youngsters now will stand us in great stead for the future. But such logic seems to me to rest on an assumption that these are the 'Busby Babes,' or something. If they were that then guys like Big Ben and Willo would have been packed off to the seconds before they were allowed to leave the club. I cannot believe that Brian would not have found a first-team place before now for any young player that he considered to have exceptional potential.
When we were in Div Two we did throw a fair few youngsters in in the end. And I'm not sure that I can see a definitive reason to expect the outcome of this exercise to be any different this time around, compared to then. If you look back to those guys you could argue we got one or two long-term first-teamers. I would say Suppiah. Some might say Hildreth though I think he was already through. Otherwise? We developed two guys who have made good careers for themselves elsewhere - Wes and G M Andrew - and then the rest have either moved on without much distinction or are now out of cricket.
In the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, my current working assumption is that we will see similar results from this crop. The trick is to avoid the drop whilst these guys develop - otherwise we'll find we've developed guys to be poached by sides from the higher division.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:07:11:04:47 by AGod.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Mike TA1 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 11:03
Quote:Grockle
Mike if you read the piece I do mention that the one area I would like answers about is how much did we actually know about Marcus' injury. Why was the surgeon surprised by what he found when he went in after such extensive investigation and the decision not to operate in the winter. It's a definite point of enquiry.
My bit about Marcus wasn't a direct reply to your post it just got me thinking could it have been handled differently, did the scan at the end of last season show any difference from the scan he had recently?
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 11:13
I think we have to assume that it was not ruptured at the end of last season.
But it would also make sense to assume that the specialist would have advised the club of the threat of residual instability of the ankle, the need for bracing, the prospect of re-injuring the ankle and the fact that surgery would be needed in the event of a further injury.
All of which leads back to wondering whether there was really no top order batsman of at least reasonable quality that could have been added to our squad this winter?
It goes without saying that we could find nobody of Marcus's calibre, but then that is not the question.
But it would also make sense to assume that the specialist would have advised the club of the threat of residual instability of the ankle, the need for bracing, the prospect of re-injuring the ankle and the fact that surgery would be needed in the event of a further injury.
All of which leads back to wondering whether there was really no top order batsman of at least reasonable quality that could have been added to our squad this winter?
It goes without saying that we could find nobody of Marcus's calibre, but then that is not the question.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 11:16
The question of Marcus and his ankle continues to worry me. Despite what the 'experts' say I do not think hundreds of miles pedalling and cycling with a dodgy ankle at the end of last season did not seem the best treatment. I understand why he wanted to do it - he is a man of his word and didn't want to let anyone down. I have had problems with my ankle in my younger days when playing and I definitely didn't appreciate cycling.
The decision not to operate earlier was presumably a personal decision by Marcus after taking medical advice. However, as I reported from the AGM my question to him "How is your ankle?" was answered it was OK and "I will be wearing a brace!". That answer was NOT reassuring to me and the rest is history!
The decision not to operate earlier was presumably a personal decision by Marcus after taking medical advice. However, as I reported from the AGM my question to him "How is your ankle?" was answered it was OK and "I will be wearing a brace!". That answer was NOT reassuring to me and the rest is history!
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: cricketjerry-mouse (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 11:33
Someone who won`t be putting his hand up and saying Marcus should have had something done to his ankle during the winter is the orthopaedic surgeon (incidentally one of the top men in the country), who said exactly the opposite.
A conflict, I detect, between hindsight and expertise.
A conflict, I detect, between hindsight and expertise.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: just in (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 11:48
I am enjoying this debate. It's always intriguing when discussing our crop of youngsters because there is excitement at their potential and development, yet concern that they lack experience. A dilemma not easily resolved.Clearly, there is immense talent between them as 6 have represented their country at U19 level, so from that you can deduce they have special qualities.
The question is how do Somerset develop their talent without challenging them,putting them under pressure ie.giving them 1st team exposure. The mention of signing an experienced front line batsman would immediately eliminate one place. Another experienced seamer, bang! no place for Dibble, or Meschede or a young Overton perhaps.
Whilst Somerset continue produce a conveyor belt of talent, there must be a nursery ground to deveop it. If not, then it is a pointless exercise because, as, someone mentioned earlier, we are putting in alot of effort towards these youngsters at 16/17/18 and surely Somerset want the benefit.If the young players do not have the opportunity another county will reap the rewards.Of course, it may mean a season or two of consolidation and it may just mean the season of 2012 is one of those but the long term benefit, one would hope, would be very worthwhile.
The question is how do Somerset develop their talent without challenging them,putting them under pressure ie.giving them 1st team exposure. The mention of signing an experienced front line batsman would immediately eliminate one place. Another experienced seamer, bang! no place for Dibble, or Meschede or a young Overton perhaps.
Whilst Somerset continue produce a conveyor belt of talent, there must be a nursery ground to deveop it. If not, then it is a pointless exercise because, as, someone mentioned earlier, we are putting in alot of effort towards these youngsters at 16/17/18 and surely Somerset want the benefit.If the young players do not have the opportunity another county will reap the rewards.Of course, it may mean a season or two of consolidation and it may just mean the season of 2012 is one of those but the long term benefit, one would hope, would be very worthwhile.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 12:02
Just in
Welcome to the "POSTIVE CLUB". Supporting is about supporting!
Yes we all want to win everything BUT most important of all is the good feelings associated with young players finding their feet and establishing themselves. I remember those long off days when even Marcus and Mark Lathwell were just getting into the team without immediate success!!
Welcome to the "POSTIVE CLUB". Supporting is about supporting!
Yes we all want to win everything BUT most important of all is the good feelings associated with young players finding their feet and establishing themselves. I remember those long off days when even Marcus and Mark Lathwell were just getting into the team without immediate success!!
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 12:03
Freudian slip!! Should have been POSITIVE!!
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: just in (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 12:28
Thank you 'Old Boy'..there is much to be positive about.I think Grockle is the leader of that particular club and I have to say, most other posters are very much in favour of development of talent.The difficulty is the instant success that is sometimes demanded. I will happily enjoy the cricket, watch these players develop and enjoy our success a little further down the line..but that is not to say we cannot do well this season!
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 12:45
It's all a question of balance. And the two division structure means that if you are in the top division then you'd better get that balance right.
Yorkshire tried the multiple youngsters route last season and were relegated, contriving to finish behind even a Worcs team that lost 11 of 16 games. Of course, I am sure that there have also been plenty of teams full of tired old lags that have gone down over the years.
What you really want is youngsters competing with more experienced men for places - because then you have a yardstick (the more experienced player) and the youngster has to work really hard to get their nose in front of that more experienced man. At the moment, to the extent that there is any competition at all within our squad, the youngsters are competing only amongst themselves.
On balance, I think we have got the balance slightly wrong, allowing a bit too much experience to seep out of the squad over the past few years.
Of course, nobody pretends that Brian's job is easy and it is a very difficult balancing act to pull off.
Yorkshire tried the multiple youngsters route last season and were relegated, contriving to finish behind even a Worcs team that lost 11 of 16 games. Of course, I am sure that there have also been plenty of teams full of tired old lags that have gone down over the years.
What you really want is youngsters competing with more experienced men for places - because then you have a yardstick (the more experienced player) and the youngster has to work really hard to get their nose in front of that more experienced man. At the moment, to the extent that there is any competition at all within our squad, the youngsters are competing only amongst themselves.
On balance, I think we have got the balance slightly wrong, allowing a bit too much experience to seep out of the squad over the past few years.
Of course, nobody pretends that Brian's job is easy and it is a very difficult balancing act to pull off.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 13:06
Quote:Botham
I have clamoured for a strike bowler, who I think should be an overseas player, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to suggest whom. We have tended to look like we couldn't bowl sides out twice for two seasons.
We keep hearing about how the team didn't bowl in the right areas, so why not?
Is the current management team the best we can hope for and are the tactics right for who we currently have available?
I'm not criticizing, just asking some questions, like Grockle is.
With all this rain it's difficult to think positively about cricket, but I'm sure that when the sun eventually shines and temperatures increase, things will pick up.
I used to think I knew a bit about cricket, but judging by teams' lack of success in the Fantasy League, maybe I should stick to Bell-ringing and Bridge.
You're talking about our replacement for Caddick Botham. He hasn't emerged - I was hoping Philander might be something but the "restrictions" would suggest he was not enough and maybe an international will never be what we need.
I've yet to see another domestic version of Andrew Richard at the younger levels - I know I'm biased but how lucky we were and what a loyal and phenomenal talent he was.
Someone like him or Johnson, Willough up to 2010 - 5 to 10 wicket men regularly. Kartik gave us a taste of Mushtaq spin in a season. I suppose most counties are looking for that man or men. If one of the young guys could show that and provide the promise of it for a decade then this season would start to show some levels of positivity for some.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 13:21
If any of them showed signs of THAT Grockle I would be turning cartwheels.
Rare as hen's teeth, of course. I did like the sound of Craig O on the radio. But even there, unless we can pull rank, he will be off to Under 19 cricket for most of the summer - or so I am given to understand.
Rare as hen's teeth, of course. I did like the sound of Craig O on the radio. But even there, unless we can pull rank, he will be off to Under 19 cricket for most of the summer - or so I am given to understand.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 13:28
But you keep on blaming the club for all this AG!!
You now seem to be going back into earlier years and telling us all what Rose should have done to avoid this starting before 2007 - how can you not call this using hindsight?
We have the balance 'slightly wrong' because we have unprecedented injuries that were not expected and would not have been predicted at the wrong part of the season.
This situation IS your doomsday scenario. It is the worst thing that could happen at the worst time and we are coping with it remarkably with what we have.
You keep going on about how people predicted this might happen. And what I keep reminding you is that, when those predictions were dicussed there was NO alternative found to the policy we went into this season with!! Even when I ask you to go back and offer other alternatives you can't though you still bang on about how we should have followed them?
You cannot invent 'experience' it has to be earned. You cannot keep players just because they are 'experienced' they have to be able to pull their weight. You cannot make people with injury records suddenly 'well and stable' and if there are no better and healthier alternatives then you have to go with what you know and have faith you can get and keep them on the park. We aren't the first to make that gamble and we aren't the first to be in this kind of position when injuries pile up.
Domestically and internationally the side we went into the first part of this season with was the best we had (the Willoughby debate aside, he may have added he may not) or could produce and the backup team were also that from the resources available after investigation.
What the squad does now is important though the situation with Shahzad, the second T20 possibility and the international place from June on are things we can control.
I fail to see what going back to pre-2007 will avail us but as long as it shows you were right I'm sure it has its value.
You now seem to be going back into earlier years and telling us all what Rose should have done to avoid this starting before 2007 - how can you not call this using hindsight?
We have the balance 'slightly wrong' because we have unprecedented injuries that were not expected and would not have been predicted at the wrong part of the season.
This situation IS your doomsday scenario. It is the worst thing that could happen at the worst time and we are coping with it remarkably with what we have.
You keep going on about how people predicted this might happen. And what I keep reminding you is that, when those predictions were dicussed there was NO alternative found to the policy we went into this season with!! Even when I ask you to go back and offer other alternatives you can't though you still bang on about how we should have followed them?
You cannot invent 'experience' it has to be earned. You cannot keep players just because they are 'experienced' they have to be able to pull their weight. You cannot make people with injury records suddenly 'well and stable' and if there are no better and healthier alternatives then you have to go with what you know and have faith you can get and keep them on the park. We aren't the first to make that gamble and we aren't the first to be in this kind of position when injuries pile up.
Domestically and internationally the side we went into the first part of this season with was the best we had (the Willoughby debate aside, he may have added he may not) or could produce and the backup team were also that from the resources available after investigation.
What the squad does now is important though the situation with Shahzad, the second T20 possibility and the international place from June on are things we can control.
I fail to see what going back to pre-2007 will avail us but as long as it shows you were right I'm sure it has its value.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 13:34
Somebody mentioned that a number of our guys have played Under 19 internationals.
Looking at the England U19s specifically, almost all of the team from 2008 are now successful County professionals.
If you look at 2009 only about half are, thus far. I wonder whether that indicates the length of time that it takes for many players to bridge the gap from U19 to first team level? I.e. It tends to take 3-4 years in around half of the cases.
Looking at the England U19s specifically, almost all of the team from 2008 are now successful County professionals.
If you look at 2009 only about half are, thus far. I wonder whether that indicates the length of time that it takes for many players to bridge the gap from U19 to first team level? I.e. It tends to take 3-4 years in around half of the cases.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 13:41
You're probably right. It actually took Marcus longer I think. We'd better hope our U19 crop are fast learners and the 'stayer' part of the usual U19 equation rather than those that disappear into obscurity.
One thing that this will do of course is answer a number of questions that would be floating about for a few seasons. They are in the cauldron now rather than filtered in over the next two/three seasons.
One thing that this will do of course is answer a number of questions that would be floating about for a few seasons. They are in the cauldron now rather than filtered in over the next two/three seasons.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 13:48
As per your post of 13.28; What I meant is that I think we have the balance slightly wrong, full stop, rather than because of injuries. That is, that the balance of the squad that we began the season with was slghtly wrong.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 13:55
Quote:Grockle
You're probably right. It actually took Marcus longer I think. We'd better hope our U19 crop are fast learners and the 'stayer' part of the usual U19 equation rather than those that disappear into obscurity.
One thing that this will do of course is answer a number of questions that would be floating about for a few seasons. They are in the cauldron now rather than filtered in over the next two/three seasons.
Marcus averaged about 3 in his first four CC games; then about 50 in his next 15.
In that sense he more or less came straight through... Only to regress later.
I believe that Under19 cricket played a part in that regression.
After averaging 50 in his first near full season of CC cricket, he was dragged back for more U19 cricket. If memory serves he made millions back in the Under19s and then went on to show indifferent form for about 5 years after having been dragged back to the lower standard where, I would think, he was able to dominate with little effort.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:07:13:57:51 by AGod.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 16:28
One question to which I would like a definitive answer is this. Is our squad actually any smaller than anyone else's?
A first team squad of 15/16 plus Academy lads to be given summer contracts if required seems about standard doesn't it?
A first team squad of 15/16 plus Academy lads to be given summer contracts if required seems about standard doesn't it?
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Mike TA1 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 16:57
The ones I have checked.
Derbyshire 22. [www.derbyshireccc.com]
Durham 19. [www.durhamccc.co.uk]
Gloucester 20. [www.gloscricket.co.uk]
Hampshire 19. [www.ageasbowl.com]
Kent 23. [www.kentcricket.co.uk]
I haven't doubled checked my figures.
Edit - to add one more
Somerset are listing twenty in their squad and include –
Jack Leach, Albie Morkel and Vernon Philander.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:07:17:12:33 by Mike TA1.
Derbyshire 22. [www.derbyshireccc.com]
Durham 19. [www.durhamccc.co.uk]
Gloucester 20. [www.gloscricket.co.uk]
Hampshire 19. [www.ageasbowl.com]
Kent 23. [www.kentcricket.co.uk]
I haven't doubled checked my figures.
Edit - to add one more
Somerset are listing twenty in their squad and include –
Jack Leach, Albie Morkel and Vernon Philander.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:07:17:12:33 by Mike TA1.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 17:09
And the official Somerset site lists our First XI squad at 20 without the Overtons. So the answer then is no, our squad isn't significantly smaller than anyone else's.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Mike TA1 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 17:13
I have just added an edit FE before I read your post.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 17:35
Edgbaston.com lists 25, two of whom are fully centrally contracted.
Likewise Notts' 25 includes Broad and Swann.
So again I say; small squad? What small squad?
Likewise Notts' 25 includes Broad and Swann.
So again I say; small squad? What small squad?
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 17:42
We basically started the season with 12 players, including the overseas player and the absent Alfonso, with much real experience of first class cricket.
Everybody that was in reserve had sort of 4-7 CC games under their belt, at best.
Not sure why our website is not including the Overtons but is including the T20 player, Morkel.
Everybody that was in reserve had sort of 4-7 CC games under their belt, at best.
Not sure why our website is not including the Overtons but is including the T20 player, Morkel.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Mike TA1 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 17:51
AG, maybe it is to do with contracted players?
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 18:25
Cricinfo lists a squad of 23 but includes Callum Haggett, James Burke, James Hayman and Chris Gayle. Are these three contracted?
That makes us presently a squad of 18 with no Gayle replacement until du Plessis is confirmed and Alf not being here yet. The Overtons and Josh Leach are not included.
That makes us presently a squad of 18 with no Gayle replacement until du Plessis is confirmed and Alf not being here yet. The Overtons and Josh Leach are not included.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 18:48
Quote:AGod
We basically started the season with 12 players, including the overseas player and the absent Alfonso, with much real experience of first class cricket..
Which 12? Are you saying we only had one side with no twelfth man (if you are including Alf)?
Who was missing? Our first match had a full side except for the third seamer.
Was Max unavailable?, Lewis?
Alex, Adam and Gemaal were out injured I believe so we had 13 without Alf and at that point the injuries were not expected to be long term - a month or more.
The situation wasn't brilliant but please don't exaggerate your point.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 20:23
I didn't mean the first game, I meant the squad as it stood going into the season.
Of people with much FC experience at all we had;
Tres
Arul
Compton
Hildreth
Craig K
Jos
Pete
Alf
Philander
Kirby
Hussain
The players in reserve were;
Dockrell - 1 CC match before this season.
Jones - 7 CC games.
Barrow - 7 CC games.
Gregory - 5 CC games.
Max - 6 CC games
Meschede - 4 CC games.
Dibble - 2 CC games.
Overtons - zero CC games
All of our reserve players combined had 32 starts between them going into the season.
Of people with much FC experience at all we had;
Tres
Arul
Compton
Hildreth
Craig K
Jos
Pete
Alf
Philander
Kirby
Hussain
The players in reserve were;
Dockrell - 1 CC match before this season.
Jones - 7 CC games.
Barrow - 7 CC games.
Gregory - 5 CC games.
Max - 6 CC games
Meschede - 4 CC games.
Dibble - 2 CC games.
Overtons - zero CC games
All of our reserve players combined had 32 starts between them going into the season.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 20:45
So we had 17 if you do not count Alf - that is only "12" by your definition (including Alf in your case). I don't count the Overtons because they were not included in the squad details and were pulled in later
You can't decide who is included and who isn't on your own arbitrary and personal set of rules so don't. It makes your point ludicrous
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:07:20:49:09 by Grockle.
You can't decide who is included and who isn't on your own arbitrary and personal set of rules so don't. It makes your point ludicrous
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:07:20:49:09 by Grockle.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 21:27
But the point is that Notts' 25 and Warks' 25 will (and do) include that type of player too, so let's just stick to comparing like with like shall we?
Saying they have 25 and we have 12 because the rest are young is nonsense.
Saying they have 25 and we have 12 because the rest are young is nonsense.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Mike TA1 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 21:42
I agree with FE in comparing like for like.
If we compare the size of our squad with other counties and we include our academy players in the squad we must also include their academy players in their squad.
Let’s leave the academy players out of it for comparison sake.
If we compare the size of our squad with other counties and we include our academy players in the squad we must also include their academy players in their squad.
Let’s leave the academy players out of it for comparison sake.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 21:54
Middlesex have 27 players on the books (not including academy) I suppose you could say 26, as Newman on loan to Kent (and might not be back) but there again we still haven't named our T20 overseas.
The 27 are- Strauss, Denly, Newman (sort of!!!) Robson, Rogers, Malan, Dexter, Simpson, Rayner, Berg, Crook, Ireland, Roland-Jones, Murtagh, Finn, Collymore, T Smith, Patel, Sandhu, Williams, Rossington, Scollay, Stirling, Wilkin, Morgan (nearly forgot him!!!) Davey, London.
Only three, Sandhu, Patel, and Wilkin have yet to play a maningfull 1st team match in one of the three domestic competitions.
The 27 are- Strauss, Denly, Newman (sort of!!!) Robson, Rogers, Malan, Dexter, Simpson, Rayner, Berg, Crook, Ireland, Roland-Jones, Murtagh, Finn, Collymore, T Smith, Patel, Sandhu, Williams, Rossington, Scollay, Stirling, Wilkin, Morgan (nearly forgot him!!!) Davey, London.
Only three, Sandhu, Patel, and Wilkin have yet to play a maningfull 1st team match in one of the three domestic competitions.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Mike TA1 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/05/2012 21:58
Thanks chunkyinargyll for that Info.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 07:40
Quote:Mike TA1
I agree with FE in comparing like for like.
If we compare the size of our squad with other counties and we include our academy players in the squad we must also include their academy players in their squad.
Let’s leave the academy players out of it for comparison sake.
FE - I never said anybody else has 25, I promise you.
When I looked through Wisden the Div One counties generally had around 16 players with experience equivalent to at least one full season ie 16 CC games. In other words most had 5 or so such players in reserve. Going into the season we had no reserves with even half a season under their belts.
We have 11 or 12 in the squad in total (and I don't mean now, I mean for the season.) I suppose it's 13 if you include Morkel but unless and until I hear differently he will be no help in CC as not eligible as of now. Even if he is named it makes little sense to count the overseas CC slot twice as the players cannot be picked together.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Frome Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 07:55
And I wasn't debating the experience part of the question, merely the assertion that our squad is "small".
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 09:35
Fine. You are right, FE. We seem to have a similar number of 'bodies,' to quite a few other counties.
It may be that having so many youngsters to the fore will all turn out for the best 12 or 18 months down the line. Or they won't turn out, in which case some will move on and a new wave of youngsters will presumably come along.
But it's the bit in between now and the 'next 12 or 18 months,' which gives rise to concern for me in terms of the CC. I still think that, whilst there are spectres like Willis, Atherton, Nicholas et al hanging over us all and purporting to know what is best for English cricket and proposing their kind of 'solutions,' that it is imperative to stay in Div One.
We are by no means alone in reliance on certain players, though. Imagine Worcestershire if Alan Richardson 'went down,' or Notts if Andre Adams had to be shelved for an extended period of time (Notts got a preview of that against us at Trent Bridge.)
It may be that having so many youngsters to the fore will all turn out for the best 12 or 18 months down the line. Or they won't turn out, in which case some will move on and a new wave of youngsters will presumably come along.
But it's the bit in between now and the 'next 12 or 18 months,' which gives rise to concern for me in terms of the CC. I still think that, whilst there are spectres like Willis, Atherton, Nicholas et al hanging over us all and purporting to know what is best for English cricket and proposing their kind of 'solutions,' that it is imperative to stay in Div One.
We are by no means alone in reliance on certain players, though. Imagine Worcestershire if Alan Richardson 'went down,' or Notts if Andre Adams had to be shelved for an extended period of time (Notts got a preview of that against us at Trent Bridge.)
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 11:06
And you intend we do what about it? All this bluster means nothing without your grand plan to solve the 'problem' as you see it?
Who should we get rid of in September and what should we be buying in to replace them to instil some more of your balance into the system?
Which 'body' as you call them is not pulling his weight and therefore taking up the space of a much more experienced player.
A criticism only has value if you have an alternative strategy and you have none.
We are at a different stage in the replacement of a squad as others. In the next 12 to 18 months some of the squads you hold up as superior will have problems I have no doubt because all their experience will start to disappear and they will have to turn to their own academies for their next cohort.
We seem to be being criticised because we have turned, found and are integrating ours in. For some reason that is a fault! I personally don't see that. I see an issue of having to pull in those not ready too early (the Overtons) but I see no problem at all in expecting
Adam Dibble, Max Waller, Lewis Gregory, Craig Meschede, Gemaal Hussain, George Dockrell Chris Jones or Alex Barrow to start to play for their contracts by making first team appearances andf establishing themselves within that format.
We still have Arul Suppiah, Nick Compton, Craig Kieswetter, Jos Buttler, Peter Trego, Marcus Trescothick, Steve Kirby, Vernon Philander, Alfonso Thomas and Albie Morkel to help that development off the field as well as on it.
I make that a squad of 17 still.... don't see this 12 no matter how you cut it.
Experience has to be matched by ability. By your definition Craig K and Jos B were not part of the squad (and you tried to argue this then in Jos's case) two years ago. I think both proved your theory wrong then and I hope the guys now will do so again. If they don't match up then by all means send them on their way but you can't disassociate them from the side they play for when they are actually playing for it.
None of the 17 players listed are A CADEMY players. Jamie and Craig Overton are Academy players! The rest make up the first team Somerset squad everywhere you read it except in your posts.
Who should we get rid of in September and what should we be buying in to replace them to instil some more of your balance into the system?
Which 'body' as you call them is not pulling his weight and therefore taking up the space of a much more experienced player.
A criticism only has value if you have an alternative strategy and you have none.
We are at a different stage in the replacement of a squad as others. In the next 12 to 18 months some of the squads you hold up as superior will have problems I have no doubt because all their experience will start to disappear and they will have to turn to their own academies for their next cohort.
We seem to be being criticised because we have turned, found and are integrating ours in. For some reason that is a fault! I personally don't see that. I see an issue of having to pull in those not ready too early (the Overtons) but I see no problem at all in expecting
Adam Dibble, Max Waller, Lewis Gregory, Craig Meschede, Gemaal Hussain, George Dockrell Chris Jones or Alex Barrow to start to play for their contracts by making first team appearances andf establishing themselves within that format.
We still have Arul Suppiah, Nick Compton, Craig Kieswetter, Jos Buttler, Peter Trego, Marcus Trescothick, Steve Kirby, Vernon Philander, Alfonso Thomas and Albie Morkel to help that development off the field as well as on it.
I make that a squad of 17 still.... don't see this 12 no matter how you cut it.
Experience has to be matched by ability. By your definition Craig K and Jos B were not part of the squad (and you tried to argue this then in Jos's case) two years ago. I think both proved your theory wrong then and I hope the guys now will do so again. If they don't match up then by all means send them on their way but you can't disassociate them from the side they play for when they are actually playing for it.
None of the 17 players listed are A CADEMY players. Jamie and Craig Overton are Academy players! The rest make up the first team Somerset squad everywhere you read it except in your posts.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 11:30
Because I'm talking about guys with experience. It isn't that complicated. Yes, those you name are there but they have very little experience. Therefore, it is not realistic, IMO, to count on them at this juncture (Hildreth's entreaty to them notwithstanding.)
You are right that experience has to be matched with ability but I see few real problems with that for the experienced ones in our squad. Hussain is the only one with reasonable experience who has still to prove himself at CC1 level, really.
It isn't a "criticism," anyway so much as an analysis.
I agree that other counties will probably experience problems going forward, too. The ECB payments system has conspired to mean that there are far more unproven players in squads now than was probably the case four or five years ago.
And, no, I didn't argue that Jos wasn't part of the squad just that he hadn't yet played a full season (16 games).
As for this question;
"Which 'body' as you call them is not pulling his weight and therefore taking up the space of a much more experienced player?"
It isn't a matter of not pulling their weight in the sense of not trying. But it may be a matter of not yet being ready for the roles that are being thrust on to them.
James Hildreth seems to think they *should* be ready and was clearly not very pleased with the bowling against either Lancs or Surrey.
I do not believe it is realistic to expect any of them, George apart, to be ready for a full role (as opposed to a role where, to quote James, players need to be 'carried,') as soon as this season. That's not a criticism of the young players themselves so much as a feeling that too much is being demanded of them, too soon.
You are right that experience has to be matched with ability but I see few real problems with that for the experienced ones in our squad. Hussain is the only one with reasonable experience who has still to prove himself at CC1 level, really.
It isn't a "criticism," anyway so much as an analysis.
I agree that other counties will probably experience problems going forward, too. The ECB payments system has conspired to mean that there are far more unproven players in squads now than was probably the case four or five years ago.
And, no, I didn't argue that Jos wasn't part of the squad just that he hadn't yet played a full season (16 games).
As for this question;
"Which 'body' as you call them is not pulling his weight and therefore taking up the space of a much more experienced player?"
It isn't a matter of not pulling their weight in the sense of not trying. But it may be a matter of not yet being ready for the roles that are being thrust on to them.
James Hildreth seems to think they *should* be ready and was clearly not very pleased with the bowling against either Lancs or Surrey.
I do not believe it is realistic to expect any of them, George apart, to be ready for a full role (as opposed to a role where, to quote James, players need to be 'carried,') as soon as this season. That's not a criticism of the young players themselves so much as a feeling that too much is being demanded of them, too soon.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 12:05
Let it be said "I personally am delighted with our squad. Although others disagree, my support exists to basically see good cricket (not necessarily immediately successful) played by a squad developed by BR and his colleagues. The current set-up albeit forced on us is a terrific chance for some to blossom. I only wish that Marcus had sorted his ankle out properly over the winter, but that is water under the bridge now, and he should not be rushed back until the ankle is 100% sound".
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 12:07
There speaks a Vice-President of the POSITIVE GROUP!!
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Ronniesabre (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 12:22
OB your constant references to positives and negatives really has a negative effect on those who see the negatives and those negatives do not see that as a positive. I know you feel you are the head of the positives and hence against negative views and are quite negative towards them which in turn isnt really very positive now is it?
Lets just post our views...whether they be positive or negative.
Lets just post our views...whether they be positive or negative.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 12:42
Met Office forecast for Thursday still as bad as ever (but okay for the other three days.) Let's hope the local weather service know better.
They were certainly more accurate when I was up there for the title finale in 2010 than the Met Office was.
They were certainly more accurate when I was up there for the title finale in 2010 than the Met Office was.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: old boy! (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 13:13
Quote:Ronniesabre
OB your constant references to positives and negatives really has a negative effect on those who see the negatives and those negatives do not see that as a positive. I know you feel you are the head of the positives and hence against negative views and are quite negative towards them which in turn isnt really very positive now is it?
Lets just post our views...whether they be positive or negative.
Hello RS
These friendly banters prove nothing one way or the other. People who prefer to look at the negatives are perfectly within their rights to express them - they are only opinions afterall. In a perverse sort of way the negatives may have more to cheer if things turn out better than they thought. It is, perhaps not quite so nice if the "I told you so, brigade" raise their voices too much if things don't go so well!
I will continue to cheer on the youngsters - my moan over the last year or two is that they haven't been given enough opportunities. (Now, there is a Negative for you!!)
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Clarence Parker (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 13:19
Someone, and I forget who, once said:-
"The absence of the negative is not the same as the presence of the positive."
"The absence of the negative is not the same as the presence of the positive."
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Ronniesabre (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 13:19
Im with you on the youngsters OB. Just hope they are up to it. I suppose we find out now.
Only hope we have enough about us to remain in the top division whilst blooding them. You will have guessed I dont think we have enough for the title shot. Call it negative if you wish but that is what confronts us I feel..hope Im totally wrong though and quite happy to be.
Im gopinmg to be at the next 2 Durham games so I will get to see the youngsters too!!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:08:13:23:16 by Ronniesabre.
Only hope we have enough about us to remain in the top division whilst blooding them. You will have guessed I dont think we have enough for the title shot. Call it negative if you wish but that is what confronts us I feel..hope Im totally wrong though and quite happy to be.
Im gopinmg to be at the next 2 Durham games so I will get to see the youngsters too!!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:08:13:23:16 by Ronniesabre.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 13:26
I voted for "fifth," in the pre-season poll on this site.
The main reason for that was that I perceived a lack of depth in the squad such that, even without injuries, the absences of guys like Alf, George, Craig K and maybe Jos on IPL/international type duties would really stretch the squad.
I have to say that with the way it has turned out in terms of Tres and Kirby getting injured and missing significant time, then I would now consider fifth to be a good outcome in the CC.
The main reason for that was that I perceived a lack of depth in the squad such that, even without injuries, the absences of guys like Alf, George, Craig K and maybe Jos on IPL/international type duties would really stretch the squad.
I have to say that with the way it has turned out in terms of Tres and Kirby getting injured and missing significant time, then I would now consider fifth to be a good outcome in the CC.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 14:22
AG Lots of words.... absolutely no solutions or even suggestions of solutions. Come up with something sensible as an alternative or.... Support the side you have whether you think they are ready or not because they are all you have. Analyse their individual performances when they are made by all means but you have NO INFORMATION to base your assessment on until that actually happens.
I have no idea how many games you think you have to play before you have the requisite "experience" to be a member of the Somerset first team squad. George seems to have it for some reason even though he's about 5 games ahead of some others who don't. It's all arbitrary, your personal opinion and absolute and utter garbage in my own view.
If you are good enough to take your place then you are old enough to play.
If you are best for the position from the squad available then you should play
If you wear the club colours representing the club at the top level then you are PART of the club and it's top level squad of players.
The Overtons are now Somerset first team players. Your idiotic rule does not take that away from them or out of the rule book and statistic record.
When they put the uniform on and took the field they became one of the the side. They are expected to do the job their captain asks them to do and they are expected to be part of the side they are playing for. If the captain's expectations are too high the player will fail, achieve or outstrip and his future will be assessed on that basis.
Personally I suggest you take your theory and place it somewhere dark while the rest of us watch the side we support put eleven men on the field and assess their performance by what they do rather than by how many games they have played in relation to some bloke's personal view of what represents adequate experience.
You seem to be trying to tell us that even though there is nothing else available and there was no other way for the county to go what we have isn't good enough based on the amount of cricket they have played. I suggest you wait and see and then in September you can tell us all with a real sense of victory that Somerset were as crud as you think they will be. Bully for you. Excellent analysis. So pleased for you.
I'm willing to wait for the next four months and enjoy what I see. If you aren't then there seems a pretty easy analytical solution to that one.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:08:14:33:13 by Grockle.
I have no idea how many games you think you have to play before you have the requisite "experience" to be a member of the Somerset first team squad. George seems to have it for some reason even though he's about 5 games ahead of some others who don't. It's all arbitrary, your personal opinion and absolute and utter garbage in my own view.
If you are good enough to take your place then you are old enough to play.
If you are best for the position from the squad available then you should play
If you wear the club colours representing the club at the top level then you are PART of the club and it's top level squad of players.
The Overtons are now Somerset first team players. Your idiotic rule does not take that away from them or out of the rule book and statistic record.
When they put the uniform on and took the field they became one of the the side. They are expected to do the job their captain asks them to do and they are expected to be part of the side they are playing for. If the captain's expectations are too high the player will fail, achieve or outstrip and his future will be assessed on that basis.
Personally I suggest you take your theory and place it somewhere dark while the rest of us watch the side we support put eleven men on the field and assess their performance by what they do rather than by how many games they have played in relation to some bloke's personal view of what represents adequate experience.
You seem to be trying to tell us that even though there is nothing else available and there was no other way for the county to go what we have isn't good enough based on the amount of cricket they have played. I suggest you wait and see and then in September you can tell us all with a real sense of victory that Somerset were as crud as you think they will be. Bully for you. Excellent analysis. So pleased for you.
I'm willing to wait for the next four months and enjoy what I see. If you aren't then there seems a pretty easy analytical solution to that one.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:05:08:14:33:13 by Grockle.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 15:07
I've included George simply because he seems conspicuously ready to do the job asked of him.
But even he will be lost to us for Under 19 stuff, so it really is liable to be a tough old season.
Oh, and I have no idea what else was or was not available. That's not the same as me telling you (or you telling me) that nothing was available in terms of more experienced players this off-season, as you claim.
But even he will be lost to us for Under 19 stuff, so it really is liable to be a tough old season.
Oh, and I have no idea what else was or was not available. That's not the same as me telling you (or you telling me) that nothing was available in terms of more experienced players this off-season, as you claim.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 15:09
Having said that, here is one guy who, logically, was available, because he moved County;
[www.espncricinfo.com]
Certainly not claiming he's the greatest player in the world. But, in two respects, he could have backed up Craig K when Craig is on international duty.
He can bat five in a CC side and open the innings, to good effect, in one day cricket.
[www.espncricinfo.com]
Certainly not claiming he's the greatest player in the world. But, in two respects, he could have backed up Craig K when Craig is on international duty.
He can bat five in a CC side and open the innings, to good effect, in one day cricket.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: chunkyinargyll (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 15:16
As you all know I'm a Middlesex supporter, but how did these guys you are all discuusing perform for the seconds last year? If an 18 year old batsmen scores 5 hundreds in the seconds, and is averaging, say, 60+, then clearly, despite of his age, and lack of first team experience, he is battering the door down, and saying 'I'm ready. Pick me'.
On the other hand, if he's only averaging 30 in the seconds, and is only getting his chance because of an injury crisis, then you are selecting him more in hope than expectation. I realise we are talking mostly bowlers than batters here, but surely the same applies. Simply because AGod expresses doubts over whether so many kids are ready in one go isn't being that disloyal, is it?
On the other hand, if he's only averaging 30 in the seconds, and is only getting his chance because of an injury crisis, then you are selecting him more in hope than expectation. I realise we are talking mostly bowlers than batters here, but surely the same applies. Simply because AGod expresses doubts over whether so many kids are ready in one go isn't being that disloyal, is it?
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Mike TA1 (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 15:24
chunkyinargyll, a voice of reason.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Ronniesabre (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 15:28
well on this board it seems it does Chunky..good to get a neutrals view on this exhausting topic though!!!
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 15:51
[stats.espncricinfo.com]
I cannot work out how to get last year's figures out of this thing. This seems to be a link for this year's but I cannot get to last year's.
I certainly do not remember many feats of derring-do though, save for Max Waller's double-ton. And he is not, primarily, thought of as a batsman.
I cannot work out how to get last year's figures out of this thing. This seems to be a link for this year's but I cannot get to last year's.
I certainly do not remember many feats of derring-do though, save for Max Waller's double-ton. And he is not, primarily, thought of as a batsman.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 16:05
[cricketarchive.com]
And this for the bowling.
Conclusion: Waller and Barrow had good seasons with the bat although not with the kind of volume of ton scoring that Chunk was talking about.
Bowling? Too fragmented to draw many conclusions, really. Only one bowler, Dibble, really did any volume of bowling at second XI level.
And this for the bowling.
Conclusion: Waller and Barrow had good seasons with the bat although not with the kind of volume of ton scoring that Chunk was talking about.
Bowling? Too fragmented to draw many conclusions, really. Only one bowler, Dibble, really did any volume of bowling at second XI level.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Clarence Parker (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 18:23
If Gemaal Hussain, Adam Dibble and Jamie Overton all break down with injuries after having played next – to - none cricket this season, were they really fit enough to start the season in the first place?
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 18:44
Well we did say the main question here was the assessment of how ready these players were before the start of the season CP. It's a good point and something definite.
What happened over the winter? Dibble, Hussain and Trescothick were all doubtful at the end of 2011 and surely they should have been sorted by the start of this season. I take the point about MT's possible 'burst' but if that was the case surely the senior medical people would have know it was possible and in that case was the brace wise?
No idea but there ya go. Chunky - quite agree. Though on that basis you'd expect Max to be playing an awful lot more than he has. Then again he's another of AG's 'variable experience' guys. He has more experience than many of his fellow younger men but as he isn;t rated by AG he isn't included in the theory.
There is an awful lot of pressure and it falls on all the guys. The older players must stand up and have the ability to do so. The younger first team boys are going to find out what the hard stuff is like but they have mostly had pressure games before in India so this is a mettle test for them. I worry for the Overton's because they weren't assessed as being ready for this but either they are or they aren't - Somerset is asking the question.
Botham made a good point a while ago and I'm much the same way. If the men you put in harm's way do things right and lose then they have done what was asked of them.
A dissatisfying result here is if the batsmen fail to support bowlers who do their jobs or bowlers do not bowl to the plan put in front of them and we lose because of poor performances rather than a lack of ability.
A win would be tremendous and what a boost for this side. There is not lack of interest from true supporters I am sure because we have no idea what this side will perform like and I assume tghe Somerset people are all hoping to be pleasantly surprised.
Let's hope we are.
What happened over the winter? Dibble, Hussain and Trescothick were all doubtful at the end of 2011 and surely they should have been sorted by the start of this season. I take the point about MT's possible 'burst' but if that was the case surely the senior medical people would have know it was possible and in that case was the brace wise?
No idea but there ya go. Chunky - quite agree. Though on that basis you'd expect Max to be playing an awful lot more than he has. Then again he's another of AG's 'variable experience' guys. He has more experience than many of his fellow younger men but as he isn;t rated by AG he isn't included in the theory.
There is an awful lot of pressure and it falls on all the guys. The older players must stand up and have the ability to do so. The younger first team boys are going to find out what the hard stuff is like but they have mostly had pressure games before in India so this is a mettle test for them. I worry for the Overton's because they weren't assessed as being ready for this but either they are or they aren't - Somerset is asking the question.
Botham made a good point a while ago and I'm much the same way. If the men you put in harm's way do things right and lose then they have done what was asked of them.
A dissatisfying result here is if the batsmen fail to support bowlers who do their jobs or bowlers do not bowl to the plan put in front of them and we lose because of poor performances rather than a lack of ability.
A win would be tremendous and what a boost for this side. There is not lack of interest from true supporters I am sure because we have no idea what this side will perform like and I assume tghe Somerset people are all hoping to be pleasantly surprised.
Let's hope we are.
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: AGod (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 18:58
Sorry, Grockle, but Max has more CC experience than only George and Adam D (unless you include the Overtons, of course) so nothing to do with 'not fitting a theory.'
Re: Glossy and Shiny. Deep and Darkest Black
Posted by: Grockle (IP Logged)
Date: 08/05/2012 19:10
But you include George in your "12" theory AG but not Max? And you include George but not Adam - sorry am I missing something here? Is Hussain in your 12? You don't rate him either. I think he has more experience than all three at CC level... ahh but that might be second division experience - does that count?
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