Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Kepp it honest!
By Bald Paul
April 22 2009
So, we've seen the demise of the ELV's, or some of them at least, assuming that someone, and not necessarily from the southern hemisphere, will want to fiddle around with the game to: 1. "increase the spectacle" 2. "keep the ball in play longer" 3. "enable us to compete with Rugby League" (sorry, that's for the Aussies only!!) what can we change next ?
Well what ideas could we come up with to improve the game in England ?
1. Enforce the straight put in at the scrum. Now, you can call me old
fashioned but the scrum needs to be a competition, so why not enforce
the straight put in and enable a proper competition for the ball ?
Having seen a few referees comment that this is not on their list of
priorities you have to ask the question, why not ?? Lets get back to
having a decent pack winning a few against the head !! When was the
last time you say that at the highest level ??
2. Get rid of the Mark. Why, when the attacking team put up a decent
high, hanging kick, can a defender catch it and, simply by uttering
"Mark" get a free kick ?
Anyone ??
No, I thought not.
Why not get rid of this, then defenders will have to catch it and
deal with a decent chase, either run it back or take the contact, set
up the ruck and then recycle the ball.
3. 3 front row replacements & penalise uncontested scrums. Now thats
obviously not my idea but the french have been known to have some great
ideas in the past (croissants, garlic, 14% alcohol beer to name just 3)
I cant honestly see anything wrong with what they have trialled, so
lets see if the IRB have the nuts to introduce something worthwhile
for a change.
4. A structured season. Now I realise this is something of a holy
grail for English rugby fans and it seems that every season we have
a bit of tinkering that seems to promise this mythical thing will
come to pass but the end result is always a succession of dogs
breakfasts that even Fido is getting sick of having served up ? Surely,
in an age when even the ridiculous ELVs have been rumbled for the
nonsense we all knew they were, somebody can actually sit down with a
piece of paper and a crayon and devise a season where England get
their players when they want them, the clubs get them for their games
and the HEC & EDF get their place too ? I mean, how hard can it be ????
5. Get rid of the EPS. What exactly has the EPS done for English rugby
?
well...???
Exactly, nothing !!
In fact you could argue its made it worse.
1. Its allowed teams that have no England players get paid for providing
English players.
2. Its meant that teams that have too many English players are
actually penalised for having them
3. It meant that some teams have actively got rid of some of their
England players to improve their financial position
4. Its meant teams have actively changed their recruiting policy away
from encouraging English talent to buying foreigners
5. The extra time the England coaches have had with the players hasn't lead
to any improvement in their play. It may well be, as some of us
thought, that the more time some of the England coaches have with the
players the worse they get ??
SO, who can add to these ?
Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: DrunkenWasps.com (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 19:15
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Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: BdeB (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 19:56
If the mark went every ball would be hoisted high because of the feild position it would yeild and maybe more. The Mark in sures that if a kick goes up it has to be a good one.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: Dobbin (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 20:12
1. Get rid of yellow cards. I always thought they were supposed to be used sparingly as a last resort, but now they scar virtually every match I watch. Rugby is meant to be 15 vs 15 - let's keep it that way.
2. Abolish bonus points. The beauty of rugby is that it can be played many different ways, in many different conditions. Bonus points introduce an artificial element encouraging certain methods of scoring and, most laughably of all, reward losers.
2. Abolish bonus points. The beauty of rugby is that it can be played many different ways, in many different conditions. Bonus points introduce an artificial element encouraging certain methods of scoring and, most laughably of all, reward losers.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: greenwood (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 20:30
Make all of these pathetic and way off attempts at a drop goal which end as nothing more than a hopeful drop kick into the crowd way off the posts, a kick that has gone dead and punishable by a scrum back rather than a 22 drop out.
Sometimes these attemps are from the half way line and are embarassing to say the least.
My other pet hate is after the knock on (Scrum) the player who has done it playing the ball sometime on the floor to prevent an oppo getting the ball.
If someone else who did it who was in front of the ball it would be a penalty.
Sometimes these attemps are from the half way line and are embarassing to say the least.
My other pet hate is after the knock on (Scrum) the player who has done it playing the ball sometime on the floor to prevent an oppo getting the ball.
If someone else who did it who was in front of the ball it would be a penalty.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: RogerE (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 20:54
The 2 biggeest time wasters are, in my opinion, the constantly collapsing scrums, and the time taken for penalty kicks.
Revert to front rows engaging and binding followed by second then back rows joining and only allowing push as the (straight) put-in happens.
Change all penalty kicks to drop goals to be taken immediately. The results to be treated as they are now (i.e. possibility of line out to kicking team or 3 points if kicked over).
I would like the "meerkat" impressions by scrum halfs to stop, by making the ball playable by anyone the moment it is visible at the back of the ruck.
Finally only allow 2 consecutive pick and gos. Spread the ball wide guys!
<edit> forgot to agree about the Mark. It should revert to as it was when I was young enough to play - with a physical Mark being made on the ground - none of this catching ball in air stuff.
Roger
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:04:23:10:27:41 by RogerE.
Revert to front rows engaging and binding followed by second then back rows joining and only allowing push as the (straight) put-in happens.
Change all penalty kicks to drop goals to be taken immediately. The results to be treated as they are now (i.e. possibility of line out to kicking team or 3 points if kicked over).
I would like the "meerkat" impressions by scrum halfs to stop, by making the ball playable by anyone the moment it is visible at the back of the ruck.
Finally only allow 2 consecutive pick and gos. Spread the ball wide guys!
<edit> forgot to agree about the Mark. It should revert to as it was when I was young enough to play - with a physical Mark being made on the ground - none of this catching ball in air stuff.
Roger
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:04:23:10:27:41 by RogerE.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: RuislipSteve has moved to Yorkshire (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 21:02
Agree with getting rid of the EPS - to add to BP's point, it ensures we do not have the form English players representing the Country.
Static binding in the scrum. Theres nothing worse than seeing the scrum, collapse because the forwards can not get hold of the shirt properly - either through the shirts being too tight or the opposite player preventing a bind.
A well structured A-League - this season has been a let down with the gaps between games.
Static binding in the scrum. Theres nothing worse than seeing the scrum, collapse because the forwards can not get hold of the shirt properly - either through the shirts being too tight or the opposite player preventing a bind.
A well structured A-League - this season has been a let down with the gaps between games.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: JF (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 21:05
Agree about crooked feeds at the scrum and missed drop goals.
I'd also make penalties kicked from further out than the 10 metre line worth only 2 points, make teams play the game in the opposition 22.
Let the ref make a loud call when the ball appears at the base of the scrum indicating that the team with the ball has 5 seconds to play the ball or lose it.
Someone with more brains than I have has to be able to come up with a way of engaging scrums so that they don't collapse half the time.
I'd also make penalties kicked from further out than the 10 metre line worth only 2 points, make teams play the game in the opposition 22.
Let the ref make a loud call when the ball appears at the base of the scrum indicating that the team with the ball has 5 seconds to play the ball or lose it.
Someone with more brains than I have has to be able to come up with a way of engaging scrums so that they don't collapse half the time.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: WaspMark (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 21:30
genius way to stop collapsing scrums...
...if 4 or 5 scrums collapse in a row then the ref should just start arbitrarily awarding free-kicks and penalties to either side with no consideration of who had the put in, where the scrum is taking place, game context or who each team has in their front row....thereby confusing players and supporters alike to the extent that no-one has any idea what toexpect come scrum time
...why hasn't anyone thought of that?
I like the mark. It diffuses poor kicks and rewards good ones which land just outside the 22 which are chased well. Without the mark it would be very hard for defending teams to avoid giving away penalties for holding on in the face of a good chase so there would be lot of kicks at goal resulting from high ball turnovers and not a lot of decent counter attcking from fullback. Plus there would be a lot of injured fullbacks if chasers were allowed to clatter them legitimately 8 or 9 more imes per game.
I like the idea of capping the number of pick and go's before you have to move the ball.
Bonus points are a funny one though. They reward teams prepared to have a crack, and they ensure losing teams scrap for everything even if the game is lost so less dead games or damp squib finishes. But on the other hand it seems unfair that on any particular weekend it might lash down with wind & rain on a mudbath pitch at the Rec, meaning a 3-3 draw, yet be fairly dry under foot and mild in the midlands allowing a bonus point style of game. But I guess one would hope that would even itself out over the season.
...if 4 or 5 scrums collapse in a row then the ref should just start arbitrarily awarding free-kicks and penalties to either side with no consideration of who had the put in, where the scrum is taking place, game context or who each team has in their front row....thereby confusing players and supporters alike to the extent that no-one has any idea what toexpect come scrum time
...why hasn't anyone thought of that?
I like the mark. It diffuses poor kicks and rewards good ones which land just outside the 22 which are chased well. Without the mark it would be very hard for defending teams to avoid giving away penalties for holding on in the face of a good chase so there would be lot of kicks at goal resulting from high ball turnovers and not a lot of decent counter attcking from fullback. Plus there would be a lot of injured fullbacks if chasers were allowed to clatter them legitimately 8 or 9 more imes per game.
I like the idea of capping the number of pick and go's before you have to move the ball.
Bonus points are a funny one though. They reward teams prepared to have a crack, and they ensure losing teams scrap for everything even if the game is lost so less dead games or damp squib finishes. But on the other hand it seems unfair that on any particular weekend it might lash down with wind & rain on a mudbath pitch at the Rec, meaning a 3-3 draw, yet be fairly dry under foot and mild in the midlands allowing a bonus point style of game. But I guess one would hope that would even itself out over the season.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: RichC (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 21:51
Great article BP, and it's already getting some good answers.
Very refreshing for a rugby forum.
Very refreshing for a rugby forum.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: Super Rafa (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 22:50
On the EPS for me it actively encourages players to under achieve, if they know they are already in the England squad for the year why would they put their bodies on the line for the club. I would hope that this is not the mentality of players but it does put a bit of doubt in mind.
Get rid of the long advantage for knock on's. If the other team gains possession and they take at least 2 or 3 phases then advantage should be over. It's not a huge offence where a team should have a tangable advantage like advancing 10 - 15 metres and would allow the game to flow a bit more instead of going back for 5 reset scrums followed by the same possession that the team already had when they picked up the knock on anyway.
Get rid of the long advantage for knock on's. If the other team gains possession and they take at least 2 or 3 phases then advantage should be over. It's not a huge offence where a team should have a tangable advantage like advancing 10 - 15 metres and would allow the game to flow a bit more instead of going back for 5 reset scrums followed by the same possession that the team already had when they picked up the knock on anyway.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: Choppers (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 23:02
The Mark needs to be kept, but should only be able to be called, when the ball is caught with both feet firmly on the ground.
Pick and go's are an integral part of the game, I would limit the time a ball can not be played, when it is sat at the rear of a ruck, which would ensure quality pick & go's rather than time wasting.
I agree with Greenwoods call on Drop goal attempts and the playing of a ball by the offender after a knock on.
I would like to see the lifting removed from lineouts and go back to jumpers only.
My biggest concern is the loss of a game for all shapes and sizes, thankfully the Rolling Maul is coming back which helps.
I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you.
Pick and go's are an integral part of the game, I would limit the time a ball can not be played, when it is sat at the rear of a ruck, which would ensure quality pick & go's rather than time wasting.
I agree with Greenwoods call on Drop goal attempts and the playing of a ball by the offender after a knock on.
I would like to see the lifting removed from lineouts and go back to jumpers only.
My biggest concern is the loss of a game for all shapes and sizes, thankfully the Rolling Maul is coming back which helps.
I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: arquero (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 23:30
Choppers,
Agree with you about the mark. I'd even go back further, and revert to the mark being called by "marking" the catch by digging the heel into the ground at the same time as catching the ball and calling the "mark". Takes a fair amount of skill and even more bottle, whilst keeping the eyes on the ball even though the ears are telling the catcher to look to where the sound of the size 10s pounding towards him are coming from!
Agree with you about the mark. I'd even go back further, and revert to the mark being called by "marking" the catch by digging the heel into the ground at the same time as catching the ball and calling the "mark". Takes a fair amount of skill and even more bottle, whilst keeping the eyes on the ball even though the ears are telling the catcher to look to where the sound of the size 10s pounding towards him are coming from!
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: Slater582 (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 23:36
Quote:5. The extra time the England coaches have had with the players hasn't lead
Maybe a bit harsh. I think some progress was made.
I don't like the EPS though and think 4) would deal with it.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: Tigergeezer (IP Logged)
Date: 22/04/2009 23:48
What arquero said! Not a mark unless you make a mark.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: mrow (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 01:30
Do away with the 10m rule for quick penalties and yellow card players who try to prevent them.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: Montagu (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 02:00
mark, MARK!!! No problem with the mark.
Could everyone stop changing the rules so that I can get on with still trying to learn the ones I've been playing for 20 odd years.
How about once over 10% of the rugby fraternity KNOW the rules someone can change one.
P.s. Don't give that 'laws' guff.
Could everyone stop changing the rules so that I can get on with still trying to learn the ones I've been playing for 20 odd years.
How about once over 10% of the rugby fraternity KNOW the rules someone can change one.
P.s. Don't give that 'laws' guff.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: fats (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 09:59
Keep the mark but as suggested above only if you make a mark. As an ex-fullback I well remember getting flattened making them but if you could not make the mark you had to play the ball as others have suggested. This would encourage good attacking kicking as a man in the air can't make a mark.
In order to stop time wasting the clock should stop when scrums are being reset and only restarted once the ball is put in. If the scrum collapses again the clock stops again.
Agree wholeheartedly with you lose a player if you go to uncontested scrums.
The retention of the ball by a team who has had a penalty or free kick awarded against them should result in an immediate 10 meters for gamesmanship. This running back with the ball and them putting it on the ground is becoming too prevalent. Similarly if a person takes a quick kick thinking it was awarded to his side and it was not should give 10 meters. Ellis and Care do this too often knowing that they do not have the kick.
Agree with the views about ball out at the back of a scrum ruck or maul. Ref should call use it or lose it and the offside is not enforceable will stop the meerkating and the ball just sitting there waiting for someone to deal with it.
A watch should be put on all kickers and the 60 seconds rule enforced. No kick in that time you lose the kick and a scrum to the opposition is awarded.
In order to stop time wasting the clock should stop when scrums are being reset and only restarted once the ball is put in. If the scrum collapses again the clock stops again.
Agree wholeheartedly with you lose a player if you go to uncontested scrums.
The retention of the ball by a team who has had a penalty or free kick awarded against them should result in an immediate 10 meters for gamesmanship. This running back with the ball and them putting it on the ground is becoming too prevalent. Similarly if a person takes a quick kick thinking it was awarded to his side and it was not should give 10 meters. Ellis and Care do this too often knowing that they do not have the kick.
Agree with the views about ball out at the back of a scrum ruck or maul. Ref should call use it or lose it and the offside is not enforceable will stop the meerkating and the ball just sitting there waiting for someone to deal with it.
A watch should be put on all kickers and the 60 seconds rule enforced. No kick in that time you lose the kick and a scrum to the opposition is awarded.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: RuislipSteve has moved to Yorkshire (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 12:24
Quote:fats
Agree wholeheartedly with you lose a player if you go to uncontested scrums.
Scenario:
Leicester playing Wasps and Wasps have lost Tim Payne due to bad injury. Having seen we have used our only replacement prop Leicester then target Vickery with borderline tackles and physicality at the breakdown in order to "break" our other prop resulting in uncontested scrums.
Should we therefore get penalised and go down to 14 men?
Disclaimer: Leicester Wasps only used for rivalry and I'm not saying that Leicester would do that - I just needed two teams.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: Zimwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 13:03
All this delaying we see now when the ball is secure to organise blockers or run down time or shape the attack is ruining the action and speed of the game. Ref should call 'use it' count to three and call it 'out' and free to contest.
And send off the cheating Leicester thugs for targetting the sweet & innocent Vickery. Its just dirty.....
And send off the cheating Leicester thugs for targetting the sweet & innocent Vickery. Its just dirty.....
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: fats (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 14:28
I appreciate that you are using an extreme case here but yes I do still think that we should lose a player.
By raising issues about dubious tackles etc brings the question of refereeing into play. A good ref should, notice I say should be able to spot this happening and take action. If it is clear that a player is being targeted with marginal legality the ref should warn the opposition next one taking a risk gets sent off and effectively takes a team hit.
Leaving the current status quo is not acceptable. Do you have a better idea?
By raising issues about dubious tackles etc brings the question of refereeing into play. A good ref should, notice I say should be able to spot this happening and take action. If it is clear that a player is being targeted with marginal legality the ref should warn the opposition next one taking a risk gets sent off and effectively takes a team hit.
Leaving the current status quo is not acceptable. Do you have a better idea?
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: RogerE (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 14:36
Give the touch judges/assistant refs the power to flag offside, forward pass, illegal binding etc - and not leave it to the discretion of the ref whether or not these powers are to be used.
Roger
Roger
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: KevinTheB (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 15:32
SuperRafa: "Get rid of the long advantage for knock on's. If the other team gains possession and they take at least 2 or 3 phases then advantage should be over."
Me, I'd make it one phase. If you get the ball and recycle it cleanly, that's an advantage or, if it isn't, whistle it then.
Scrum collapses. Bear with me on this one.
I think a lot of the genuine scrum collapses happen when a prop can't get a decent bind.
Special shirts for props should be brought in for Preiership and above fixtures which have two baggage straps sewn in, at the natural point where the opposing prop would bind on the shirt, allowing a firm grip to be possible.
It would be an offence to prevent the opponent binding on this strap, and the referee should not allow the ball to come into the tunnel until satisfied all props are bound.
Releasing the strap before the ball comes to the scrum half should be an offence, and the Assistant Referees should be empowered to call the penalty on this one.
KevinTheB
www.justgiving.com/kevinbroadbent
Me, I'd make it one phase. If you get the ball and recycle it cleanly, that's an advantage or, if it isn't, whistle it then.
Scrum collapses. Bear with me on this one.
I think a lot of the genuine scrum collapses happen when a prop can't get a decent bind.
Special shirts for props should be brought in for Preiership and above fixtures which have two baggage straps sewn in, at the natural point where the opposing prop would bind on the shirt, allowing a firm grip to be possible.
It would be an offence to prevent the opponent binding on this strap, and the referee should not allow the ball to come into the tunnel until satisfied all props are bound.
Releasing the strap before the ball comes to the scrum half should be an offence, and the Assistant Referees should be empowered to call the penalty on this one.
KevinTheB
www.justgiving.com/kevinbroadbent
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: JF (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 16:41
Not a bad idea, Kev, but the straps will need inspection to make sure there's no funny stuff going on. I've got an away shirt bought before the cup final against Northampton and the seams round the neck in that one could shear someone's arteries.
In addition to blood injuries we might also need a sewing bin for players whose seams have opened. Will clubs be required to have a team seamstress?
In addition to blood injuries we might also need a sewing bin for players whose seams have opened. Will clubs be required to have a team seamstress?
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: Sudbury Survivor (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 17:19
Firstly great thread - well done BP.
Further compulsory powers for Assistant Refs - no thanks - ball at back of scrum sweet as you like - SH picks and passes but prop had unbound just before - penalty? - don't think so!
Law usually states that an offside player is liable for penalty - can be only one decision maker - far better for miked up Assistant to verbally advise rather than sticking flag out and stopping the game.
Many of the above problems are only noted when the opposition infringes rather than our own lillywhite team. The general concensus is for refs to whistle as little as possible.
Now to be really radical how about a philosophy when you only blow up if an offence has clearly disadvantaged your opponent. For instance crossing is only given at the moment if the opposition has been clearly impeded whereas accidental offside can be awarded even if there is no benefit gained by the offending side. Imagine if a full back dropping a high ball was not penalised unless there was an opponent within three metres. The real difficulty would be that it would place even more interpretation in the hands of the ref but it would cut out a great many stoppages in play.
Further compulsory powers for Assistant Refs - no thanks - ball at back of scrum sweet as you like - SH picks and passes but prop had unbound just before - penalty? - don't think so!
Law usually states that an offside player is liable for penalty - can be only one decision maker - far better for miked up Assistant to verbally advise rather than sticking flag out and stopping the game.
Many of the above problems are only noted when the opposition infringes rather than our own lillywhite team. The general concensus is for refs to whistle as little as possible.
Now to be really radical how about a philosophy when you only blow up if an offence has clearly disadvantaged your opponent. For instance crossing is only given at the moment if the opposition has been clearly impeded whereas accidental offside can be awarded even if there is no benefit gained by the offending side. Imagine if a full back dropping a high ball was not penalised unless there was an opponent within three metres. The real difficulty would be that it would place even more interpretation in the hands of the ref but it would cut out a great many stoppages in play.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: arquero (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 17:21
JF,
Surely they could use the services of the same person who stitches the players up when they go off to the blood bin?
Sutures in one bag, bobbins in another!
Surely they could use the services of the same person who stitches the players up when they go off to the blood bin?
Sutures in one bag, bobbins in another!
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: shendy (IP Logged)
Date: 23/04/2009 18:39
How about stopping the clock as soon as a try is scored, and don't re-start it until the re-start. Then there's no worry about the length of time the kicker takes.
You could also stop it as soon as the team indicate they're going to kick a penalty, re-starting it, I dunno, maybe when the ball is actually kicked.
You could also stop it as soon as the team indicate they're going to kick a penalty, re-starting it, I dunno, maybe when the ball is actually kicked.
Re: Rugby, 5 things to fiddle with
Posted by: RuislipSteve has moved to Yorkshire (IP Logged)
Date: 24/04/2009 10:20
Quote:fats
Leaving the current status quo is not acceptable. Do you have a better idea?
Unfortunately not - however it is changed it will be open to some form of abuse.
THere does seem to be some agreement on scrums collapsing on here - different shirts for props or a static engage seem to be the most viable solution here.
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