We had joy we had fun...
It did happen once ..
By PRisMark
November 14 2012
It has been quite a while though since Wasps enjoyed a season in the sun. And while the odd green shoot keeps trying to emerge, there’s still a nagging suspicion that the cold winds could blow and Wasps as we know it could get well and truly persisted on. The wrangling over the sale of Wasps by Steve Hayes to parties not fully known has been long, complex and seemingly byzantine in its intrigue. What it has thrown into sharp relief is the complete powerlessness of supporters to influence the outcome.
Some of us rail against the lack of openness and inconsistent communication from the club throughout the process while others sit tight and hope for the best. No-one appears particularly delighted though at the Soviet-esque silence that has descended since the Lucan-like Ken Moss mounted Shergar and, apparently, rode to the defence of a club reduced to significant debt, a brand of questionable value and a rather more lucrative stake in Premiership Rugby. Where the club stands at the moment is a riddle wrapped in a mystery within an enigma.
Two elements of the puzzle are particularly intriguing. The first is the visibility of the owners – or complete lack-of. Other than an interim front man from the past regime; a lawyer involved in the sale and someone apparently keeping the ship afloat on a day-to-day basis, the money and power behind the deal remain concealed in a cloak of invisibility. Why? Such reticence invites speculation: is Steve Hayes still pulling the strings? Has the deal foundered? Is there an Arab prince or bunch of Sarfie diamond mine owners poised to pounce? No-one knows, and in the absence of concrete information, speculation ranges from the potentially credible to potentially subversive. Effective corporate communication is key in successful take-overs. Communication can’t be turned on and off like a tap but has to be a continuous process – even when there doesn’t seem much to say. Sadly, when the appointed officers of the new entity appear to be a lawyer and an accountant, the positive impact of effective communication always seems likely to be overlooked.
The second area of intrigue some months on from the completion of the deal is: why no business plan? Most of my career has been in corporate communication during big changes and I’ve been on both ends of takeover deals. In any takeover I've worked on, the purchaser’s business plan for the new entity has been built during the take-over process - broad-brush at first, but then fleshed out as more and more of the detail becomes available through due diligence. So, by the time the deal's completed, the new owner has a pretty good idea of what their strategy for their new purchase is going to be and how they will implement it. That too generally requires a lot of communication work with stakeholders, both for reassurance and to stamp the hallmark of the new regime on their new purchase.
Yet we’ve heard nothing – and there are clearly several big issues out there very visible to supporters that need to be addressed rapidly. For instance, it’s galling to see the side run out week after week without a major shirt sponsor. Each time this happens, the club has lost more and more money while a deal for any potential sponsor becomes less attractive by the fact they’ll have less exposure this season. And, of course, a lead sponsor offers a halo effect drawing in other sponsors who wish to be associated with the ‘big name’.
Equally, there’s a dearth of creativity in the club’s marketing activity. Ticket prices are frozen at last year’s painfully high levels. They didn’t work then and why on earth should they now? Surely the definition of madness is continuing to do the same thing but expecting a different result? Crowds are in decline across our major sports and Premiership rugby seems to be suffering disproportionately. As supporters, we can see that there may well be plenty of ways to cut the numbers differently to get more bums on seats and perhaps even generate greater income. Sadly, no-one’s asking us.
Finally, we’re seeing again the impact of the loss of a few players on the squad. It’s a lot better squad than Wasps have had for a few years, but it’s still worryingly thin in places. The real fear is that there’s no money to replace the likes of Berry and Birkett – and the surfacing of an outstanding debt of £400,000 to Wycombe Wanderers without any explanation from Wasps of what this is and when and how it will be paid only plays into the doom mongers’ court.
Of course, Wasps does have one great and largely untapped asset: its supporters. From those who would love to gain a financial stake in the club if shares were offered to the full gambit of professional skills, we have much to give and an emotional stake in the club that would make that giving all the easier. But, until we’re called on – and know who’s calling – that deep well of expertise and experience remains untapped.
I’m happy to cede the moral high ground to those who sit tight on their mountain and say ‘it’ll all be all right.” But trust is earned, and Wasps have done little too earn mine in the last few years. From past experience, I’m also quite aware that the high ground is where the lemmings sit. We all want Wasps to be the best it can be. Surely we therefore have a role in keeping its management accountable and by offering the kind of expertise that’s unique to sports followers – that emotional attachment that makes a sports club quite different from any other business. Wasps’ new owners, whoever they are, would do well to tap that well before it runs dry.
We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: DrunkenWasps.com (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 10:05
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Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: Chins (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 10:10
Great write up and echoes exactly my thoughts.
Be nice if the directors of the club read this and gave feedback to their stakeholders
Be nice if the directors of the club read this and gave feedback to their stakeholders
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: pds18464 (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 10:12
Good points well made.
I still have a sneeking fear that goes back to the statement that 'consortium members' are there on a 'strictly commercial basis' may not have a great sense of humour looking at attendences and lack of sponsor /coprorate revenue which would challenge any business plan number ... and could drop this like a bag of spuds
Unless; of course its the secret Sheik not a consortium , either way the longer this drags on without a known plan the club will lack a sense of stability and the harder it will be to keep and attract the best players to bring the squad back to where it needs to be ... and ... even harder to maintain even the curremt loss making attendences while at AP .
Dont like the title though ...wasnt that the song they had to ban from hospitals when it was No.1?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:11:14:10:22:14 by pds18464.
I still have a sneeking fear that goes back to the statement that 'consortium members' are there on a 'strictly commercial basis' may not have a great sense of humour looking at attendences and lack of sponsor /coprorate revenue which would challenge any business plan number ... and could drop this like a bag of spuds
Unless; of course its the secret Sheik not a consortium , either way the longer this drags on without a known plan the club will lack a sense of stability and the harder it will be to keep and attract the best players to bring the squad back to where it needs to be ... and ... even harder to maintain even the curremt loss making attendences while at AP .
Dont like the title though ...wasnt that the song they had to ban from hospitals when it was No.1?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:11:14:10:22:14 by pds18464.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: arquero (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 10:53
Thought provoking - very good article.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: Heathen (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 11:29
PRM - excellent piece.
(Ali, are you watching?)
(Ali, are you watching?)
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: P Ris Mark (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 13:09
Thanks - I'm supposed to be writing up a 20,000 word PhD chapter at the moment - this proved to be a terrific displacement activity.
I should add that I don't in any way knock the good news that occasionally does come out from the club - Joe Launchbury's new contract is another positive sign.
I'd just like to understand what such signs mean in the wider context of the business though.
I should add that I don't in any way knock the good news that occasionally does come out from the club - Joe Launchbury's new contract is another positive sign.
I'd just like to understand what such signs mean in the wider context of the business though.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: Dobbin (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 13:37
Good article. As ever, I think you'd struggle to find a Wasps supporter who doesn't think it would be nice to have more information about who owns the club, what finance they have behind them, and what plans they have for the future. The differences arise over how we react to the lack of such information - does it necessarily imply that there's something wrong, and are those who quietly accept the state of affairs and get on with enjoying the season somehow being naive?
I agree it would he helpful for the club to engage with the supporters, even if it's just to tell us the reasons why they can't tell us any more. As you imply, and this board demonstrates, the current information vacuum merely encourages speculation, much of which might well be completely unfounded.
I agree it would he helpful for the club to engage with the supporters, even if it's just to tell us the reasons why they can't tell us any more. As you imply, and this board demonstrates, the current information vacuum merely encourages speculation, much of which might well be completely unfounded.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: pds18464 (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 15:00
It shows what an odd place we find ourselves in when the article is headed by a picture of Shaun smiling !
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: colourbloke (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 15:59
Quote:pds18464
Dont like the title though ...wasnt that the song they had to ban from hospitals when it was No.1?
....I believe that was only because Jimmy Savile offered to play it on hospital radio in person!
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: waspman (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 16:50
Very well written piece that echoes my thoughts as well.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: WaspieMatt (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 17:38
Quote:waspman
Very well written piece that echoes my thoughts as well.
+1
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: james46 (IP Logged)
Date: 14/11/2012 21:35
Personally I think we are now owned by the Disney Corp., and we'll all be wearing Mickey Mouse hats before you know it 
The new stadium will be in Disneyland Paris, with some water rides built in.
Lets face it, it's a good a theory as anything at the moment.
The new stadium will be in Disneyland Paris, with some water rides built in.
Lets face it, it's a good a theory as anything at the moment.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: DGPWasp (IP Logged)
Date: 15/11/2012 09:28
No. Mick Jagger and Keith Richards are behind the new consortium. Eye-watering ticket prices for their up coming tour are to pay off debts and build a new stadium and it's as good an explanation as any for the sudden unexplained disappearance of Moss!
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: cb@wasps (IP Logged)
Date: 15/11/2012 10:56
As long as none of you tell anyone I can let you know. I had a massive result on the Euromillions earlier this year and haven’t told Mrs CB just in case she thinks she can get her paws on it. Unfortunately because I haven’t told her I haven’t been able to go down the normal route of luxury cars, super yachts and mega homes around the world. I therefore thought what better thing to spend it on than buying Wasps and taking them back to the glory years. Don’t worry people everything is in hand and I do have a plan of sorts.
Please don’t tell Mrs CB or this honesty could go horribly wrong and backfire on me.
And don’t think I am moving us to London any time soon.
Please don’t tell Mrs CB or this honesty could go horribly wrong and backfire on me.
And don’t think I am moving us to London any time soon.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: sunroof (IP Logged)
Date: 15/11/2012 17:43
Sorry all,
very well written, one sided load of old poop,Nope, nobody sits here thinking it will'be all right on the night'. And not sure anyone is 100% optimistic.
And using emotive language and discritions based on myths and legends wears thin.
You guys want the facts yet you cant use factual language, even when asking for it.'Horror, horror, smoke screens deception, cloak and dagger, who owns us, it must be the mafia' 'tell me who you are before we stop coming' boo hoo.
Accept that, who ever the heck they are, and trust me (not that any of you seem capable of trust) they saved us..
Please please...Give them time and space and stop being 'little boys wanting to open the sweet jar'.(sorry H, not including women here)
Patience, I have said it before, you are patient when the players mess up, but when our potential saviours ask for time and discretion, you offer them moaning, complaining, stalking mis information and gossip.
If i ws mr Moss, I would run and hide, i would fear for my kids and i would wish i never got involved in the first place.
GROW UP AND LEARN WHAT DELAYED GRATIFICATION MEANS
When all is announced, qhen moan with me when it goes wrong, but dont make them run and hide before they show themselves
very well written, one sided load of old poop,Nope, nobody sits here thinking it will'be all right on the night'. And not sure anyone is 100% optimistic.
And using emotive language and discritions based on myths and legends wears thin.
You guys want the facts yet you cant use factual language, even when asking for it.'Horror, horror, smoke screens deception, cloak and dagger, who owns us, it must be the mafia' 'tell me who you are before we stop coming' boo hoo.
Accept that, who ever the heck they are, and trust me (not that any of you seem capable of trust) they saved us..
Please please...Give them time and space and stop being 'little boys wanting to open the sweet jar'.(sorry H, not including women here)
Patience, I have said it before, you are patient when the players mess up, but when our potential saviours ask for time and discretion, you offer them moaning, complaining, stalking mis information and gossip.
If i ws mr Moss, I would run and hide, i would fear for my kids and i would wish i never got involved in the first place.
GROW UP AND LEARN WHAT DELAYED GRATIFICATION MEANS
When all is announced, qhen moan with me when it goes wrong, but dont make them run and hide before they show themselves
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: arquero (IP Logged)
Date: 15/11/2012 18:32
You write that indecipherable old tosh, and then have the temerity to call an article written by a contributor- primarily put forward to stop this board going into hibernation- a "one sided load of old poop"? The article might not be to your liking, but it has made valid points worthy of debate, and kept the board alive for a few more weeks.
As for suggesting Mr Moss should run and hide, where have you been? It seems he's already done that!
Just a thought; perhaps reaction such as yours is one of the main reasons people don't post articles on here to prevent the board going down!
As for suggesting Mr Moss should run and hide, where have you been? It seems he's already done that!
Just a thought; perhaps reaction such as yours is one of the main reasons people don't post articles on here to prevent the board going down!
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: James. (IP Logged)
Date: 15/11/2012 19:26
I found Sunroof's response surreal to say the least!
If I was helping a mate invest in a series of brothels because of him having saved my life on the battlefield, then I wouldn't want my name publicised because there would be hell to pay with my mum. This however is a sports organisation and I am at a loss as to why ownership information isn't made public. Even if it's MG Financial UK Small Companies Fund, so what? They must be known to the RFU - I would be rather surprised if there wasn't a fit and proper test. So what is the big mystery? Or more significantly, why?
I can't be the only one who finds himself trying to figure out the scenario whereby someone doesn't want the fact that it is he who owns a rugby club to be known.
There is zero speculation or mention of it in the press. Does that mean that in journalistic circles it is common knowledge but for some reason they are prevented from saying?
It's all a bit wierd. Maybe I should just GROW UP AND LEARN WHAT DELAYED GRATIFICATION MEANS. But then again, having followed Wasps for many years, I thingk I know.
===
James
If I was helping a mate invest in a series of brothels because of him having saved my life on the battlefield, then I wouldn't want my name publicised because there would be hell to pay with my mum. This however is a sports organisation and I am at a loss as to why ownership information isn't made public. Even if it's MG Financial UK Small Companies Fund, so what? They must be known to the RFU - I would be rather surprised if there wasn't a fit and proper test. So what is the big mystery? Or more significantly, why?
I can't be the only one who finds himself trying to figure out the scenario whereby someone doesn't want the fact that it is he who owns a rugby club to be known.
There is zero speculation or mention of it in the press. Does that mean that in journalistic circles it is common knowledge but for some reason they are prevented from saying?
It's all a bit wierd. Maybe I should just GROW UP AND LEARN WHAT DELAYED GRATIFICATION MEANS. But then again, having followed Wasps for many years, I thingk I know.
===
James
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: NorthHarrow (IP Logged)
Date: 15/11/2012 19:33
Methinks the sunroof has been left open for far too long and there is nothing left inside... Good piece Mark.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: sunroof (IP Logged)
Date: 16/11/2012 08:53
Wow, well, many different points against me, too, too many to counter.
If the main reason for writing the original was to keep the thread open then I happily take back everything I said.
Thank you for keeping the thread open, without that article, I wouldnt be able to come on here and have people beat me down for having a different opinion.
As for people not coming on here because of people like me having a pop!!! My word, well when you look ay how many times I have ben given stick,Beckenham has been given stick, Barney etc.. its a bit 'kettle and black'.
Anyhow, I will happily apologise to all and sundry and repeat:
As James has just pointed out.. there has been no announcement, WHY?? Great point by all, WHY?? you guys really can think of no reason? no 'legal' reason, no personal/private reason, no 'gagging laws' reason?
Oh, okay, so when I was having a pop at Haughton, and people on here had a go at me for not knowing his personal circumstances? Same NR, I was told to show him patience, on here.
Again, all, WHY is everyone so quiet? Could it possibly be that there are people who making an annoucement, how ever significant to us, may be a lesser priority?
we have been asked for patience but cannot show it.. there will be a good reason, this site and the people on it are not insignificant, Wasps the club read the threads, (and most definately think I am a twerp), and our opinion is noted.So I would hate to be part of something that makes people have serious regrets, if and when the reasons for what you guys are calling all sorts of mystically cloak and dagger secrets, become apparent.
James, again, askes,zero coverage in the media, correct, and who in the club is gossiping,NOBODY. and they would be in a position to know.And yes we have gleaned information from them before, yet not this time, WHY??
Ask yourselves why people on here can be patient with players who dont deserve it, but owners?? All will be made clear in the fullness of time, you and i may or may not like it, and then we can all argue our socks off.
I love the way some of the posters on here are able to happily use both sides of the coin to validate their points.
And yes, love the thread, good or bad comments( like mine) only enhance the experience, okay okay, maybe not mine. If you guys feel that people contribute less because of my own comments then I will happily refrain.
If the main reason for writing the original was to keep the thread open then I happily take back everything I said.
Thank you for keeping the thread open, without that article, I wouldnt be able to come on here and have people beat me down for having a different opinion.
As for people not coming on here because of people like me having a pop!!! My word, well when you look ay how many times I have ben given stick,Beckenham has been given stick, Barney etc.. its a bit 'kettle and black'.
Anyhow, I will happily apologise to all and sundry and repeat:
As James has just pointed out.. there has been no announcement, WHY?? Great point by all, WHY?? you guys really can think of no reason? no 'legal' reason, no personal/private reason, no 'gagging laws' reason?
Oh, okay, so when I was having a pop at Haughton, and people on here had a go at me for not knowing his personal circumstances? Same NR, I was told to show him patience, on here.
Again, all, WHY is everyone so quiet? Could it possibly be that there are people who making an annoucement, how ever significant to us, may be a lesser priority?
we have been asked for patience but cannot show it.. there will be a good reason, this site and the people on it are not insignificant, Wasps the club read the threads, (and most definately think I am a twerp), and our opinion is noted.So I would hate to be part of something that makes people have serious regrets, if and when the reasons for what you guys are calling all sorts of mystically cloak and dagger secrets, become apparent.
James, again, askes,zero coverage in the media, correct, and who in the club is gossiping,NOBODY. and they would be in a position to know.And yes we have gleaned information from them before, yet not this time, WHY??
Ask yourselves why people on here can be patient with players who dont deserve it, but owners?? All will be made clear in the fullness of time, you and i may or may not like it, and then we can all argue our socks off.
I love the way some of the posters on here are able to happily use both sides of the coin to validate their points.
And yes, love the thread, good or bad comments( like mine) only enhance the experience, okay okay, maybe not mine. If you guys feel that people contribute less because of my own comments then I will happily refrain.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: bald.paul.101 (IP Logged)
Date: 16/11/2012 09:56
Lordy, hasnt this thread taken a bizarre turn.
Sunroof, is there some reason behind this surreal out pouring ?
Its like Tigeroo's adoration of Jonno & Dixies' pavlovian response to anything Sarries related, there must be reasons behind such behaviour.
Pull up a couch and tell us all about it ?
Sunroof, is there some reason behind this surreal out pouring ?
Its like Tigeroo's adoration of Jonno & Dixies' pavlovian response to anything Sarries related, there must be reasons behind such behaviour.
Pull up a couch and tell us all about it ?
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: sunroof (IP Logged)
Date: 16/11/2012 10:34
Hey BP and all,
okay grab a beer some dry raosted nuts and a bar stool and I will tell ya..
Ha haa, nope, just offering up an alterantive view.
Love your comment though, now your comment about behaviour could possibly be more accurate if applied to the opposite views to mine though.
Several threads have been started regarding 'demands to know' and soviet like secrets.
I completely understand the wanting to know, but Wasps new owners will do what they have to do and comply where they need to comply.
We all like to feel we have a stake and we all like to feel how important we are and how we should be respected by owners old and new.
Using colourful language and well thought out emotive statements shoudnt take away from reallity.
The owners have asked for privacy, any announcments will be made in the fullness of time.Demanding answers, whatever wonderful wording used, is still demanding.
How we all went google mapping mr Moss'e home in wentworth!
oh those heady days of respect and decency, no stalking there then.
Nope, I have no issues that go beyond, just offering a view that opposes the majority, swimming against the tide, possibly defending a lost cause.
okay grab a beer some dry raosted nuts and a bar stool and I will tell ya..
Ha haa, nope, just offering up an alterantive view.
Love your comment though, now your comment about behaviour could possibly be more accurate if applied to the opposite views to mine though.
Several threads have been started regarding 'demands to know' and soviet like secrets.
I completely understand the wanting to know, but Wasps new owners will do what they have to do and comply where they need to comply.
We all like to feel we have a stake and we all like to feel how important we are and how we should be respected by owners old and new.
Using colourful language and well thought out emotive statements shoudnt take away from reallity.
The owners have asked for privacy, any announcments will be made in the fullness of time.Demanding answers, whatever wonderful wording used, is still demanding.
How we all went google mapping mr Moss'e home in wentworth!
oh those heady days of respect and decency, no stalking there then.
Nope, I have no issues that go beyond, just offering a view that opposes the majority, swimming against the tide, possibly defending a lost cause.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: pds18464 (IP Logged)
Date: 16/11/2012 10:48
All getting a bit Voltaire n'est pas?
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: P Ris Mark (IP Logged)
Date: 16/11/2012 11:01
Crikey Sunroof - I thought you'd hanged yourself with your first post on this thread - but it looks like you're grappling your way back up the rope with your follow-ups.
I disagree with you totally as to me your faith seems extremely naive. However, I fully respect your right to hold and present an opposite view.
While you may not care for 'emotive' language, Ali D tweeted after the piece was published that the new CEO will be writing a piece in Sunday's match programme and that it will be communicated via the club's channels on Monday. The whole point of being emotive is to draw a response.
Perhaps the club has some real news to impart or perhaps someone has just been listening and is beginning to realise that the goodwill of supporters does matter.
I disagree with you totally as to me your faith seems extremely naive. However, I fully respect your right to hold and present an opposite view.
While you may not care for 'emotive' language, Ali D tweeted after the piece was published that the new CEO will be writing a piece in Sunday's match programme and that it will be communicated via the club's channels on Monday. The whole point of being emotive is to draw a response.
Perhaps the club has some real news to impart or perhaps someone has just been listening and is beginning to realise that the goodwill of supporters does matter.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: Westy68 (IP Logged)
Date: 16/11/2012 13:45
Sunroof Why wouldn't you say something,the new owners must have a plan and I should imagine in their eyes a good plan, or are you saying they don't have a plan and will get one soon?.
Like most things in life the owners would like us to part with our money for something they wish to sell. Some of us have paid a lot of money for something that will take 8 months for us to get what we have paid for, in recent times it's not been what we were hoping for.
The owners I'm sure would like more of us to do this. Surely the question would be 'Please tell me WHY'?.
The longer this goes on the more people are going to think negatively, it doesn't make sense.
Unless the plan is they don't need supporters.
Also Sunroof I do agree with your comments on NR
Like most things in life the owners would like us to part with our money for something they wish to sell. Some of us have paid a lot of money for something that will take 8 months for us to get what we have paid for, in recent times it's not been what we were hoping for.
The owners I'm sure would like more of us to do this. Surely the question would be 'Please tell me WHY'?.
The longer this goes on the more people are going to think negatively, it doesn't make sense.
Unless the plan is they don't need supporters.
Also Sunroof I do agree with your comments on NR
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: KevinTheB (IP Logged)
Date: 16/11/2012 13:54
Gentlemen.
Firstly, without pieces of editorial of the quality written by PRM, this messageboard would go into hibernation and nobody would be able to use it, either to agree or disagree.
Secondly, look at the length of some of the replies to the thread.
If you could only all put similar effort in writing your thoughts in a publishable article, we'd be able to stay available until 2015.
KevinTheB
www.justgiving.com/kevinbroadbent
Firstly, without pieces of editorial of the quality written by PRM, this messageboard would go into hibernation and nobody would be able to use it, either to agree or disagree.
Secondly, look at the length of some of the replies to the thread.
If you could only all put similar effort in writing your thoughts in a publishable article, we'd be able to stay available until 2015.
KevinTheB
www.justgiving.com/kevinbroadbent
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: RiflemanH (IP Logged)
Date: 16/11/2012 13:58
For those wishing to worry themselves about secretive owners, take a look at Notts County and the 'Munto' owners. They hid behind closed doors (infact there weren't any in reality, just front men). They had grand plans, signed big names (Sven and Sol Campbell) etc and implied (and made a good show) of spending big.
There were no owners and no bills were paid. They ran up £7m debts in a little under a season.
Things are not the same here...there is no grand plan for a start. Most interestingly though right from the start the media were suspicious - that isn't the case, and let's be honest these guys usually have a good inkling if anything is amis.
Once reports appear questioning who the owners really are I'll really worry, until then I will watch with interest and wait for some real news. I hope that is in the programme on Sunday, but I won't hold my breath.
There were no owners and no bills were paid. They ran up £7m debts in a little under a season.
Things are not the same here...there is no grand plan for a start. Most interestingly though right from the start the media were suspicious - that isn't the case, and let's be honest these guys usually have a good inkling if anything is amis.
Once reports appear questioning who the owners really are I'll really worry, until then I will watch with interest and wait for some real news. I hope that is in the programme on Sunday, but I won't hold my breath.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: sunroof (IP Logged)
Date: 17/11/2012 09:30
Just going to, hopefully, clear up a little stuff then that it for me on this thread.Theres a rugby match approaching fast.
So, Rifleman , well said.Sense and sensability rises to the top.
Ok, I would say something,'WHY', if information was not forthcoming, but i would apply more patience than what appears to be the norm.I am as interested and concerned as others.
I have little faith, I think i stated on another thread perhaps, by saying, for my ticket price I only expect to see a game of rugby.I would hope for more , from the crowd, atmosphere, conversation. From the players, an entertaining win and 5 points, a chat in the car park. And the owners, laying on entertainment and providing security for Wasps. But, nope, dont expect it or have any faith in acheiving it.
So naive faith, nope, there are several billion people out there with a naive faith, but thats a different thread.
Now, please tell me, we are not so naive to believe that this thread has brought about a statement from the CEO?
I put it down to patience, any statement will be made when its right to make it.Not when Drunken Wasps 'demand' it.Now there is naive.
So, Rifleman , well said.Sense and sensability rises to the top.
Ok, I would say something,'WHY', if information was not forthcoming, but i would apply more patience than what appears to be the norm.I am as interested and concerned as others.
I have little faith, I think i stated on another thread perhaps, by saying, for my ticket price I only expect to see a game of rugby.I would hope for more , from the crowd, atmosphere, conversation. From the players, an entertaining win and 5 points, a chat in the car park. And the owners, laying on entertainment and providing security for Wasps. But, nope, dont expect it or have any faith in acheiving it.
So naive faith, nope, there are several billion people out there with a naive faith, but thats a different thread.
Now, please tell me, we are not so naive to believe that this thread has brought about a statement from the CEO?
I put it down to patience, any statement will be made when its right to make it.Not when Drunken Wasps 'demand' it.Now there is naive.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: Heathen (IP Logged)
Date: 17/11/2012 09:35
Let's see what comes to light on Sunday.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: arquero (IP Logged)
Date: 17/11/2012 10:17
It seems to me that the article is an erudite rendition of one person's viewpoint on the impact of the lack of (official) information emanating from Wasps. It doesn't strike me that there is any criticism of named individuals in there, whilst questioning the role and involvement of some, so the comparison with NR falls at the first hurdle in that respect.
I can only imagine the writer is also reflecting the views of others, if the poor gates are indicative of reasons behind many no longer making the effort to go to AP on match days.
It also never fails to amaze me how many people on here seem to have semi-permeable personalities, in that they think whatever they say and however they put it is fine, yet they cry "foul" the moment any response comes back at them in similar style!
Until, and unless, we find out more about the new owners and their medium to long term plans, should we really be surprised that some will continue to question what the future holds for Wasps?
I can only imagine the writer is also reflecting the views of others, if the poor gates are indicative of reasons behind many no longer making the effort to go to AP on match days.
It also never fails to amaze me how many people on here seem to have semi-permeable personalities, in that they think whatever they say and however they put it is fine, yet they cry "foul" the moment any response comes back at them in similar style!
Until, and unless, we find out more about the new owners and their medium to long term plans, should we really be surprised that some will continue to question what the future holds for Wasps?
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: Lwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 20/11/2012 14:20
PRM,
A good article and I think in amongst the emotional language you do make some valid points and ask some important questions. However, the one area I do take issue with debates such as this is the concept of "stakeholders". This wooly concept that anyone who is interested in something is equally important to it.
For some sadly, for all it is simply a fact that, Premier Rugby is a professional league. As fans we are merely customers of a business. We might like to think that fandom grants us a special status, but it doesn't. A privately held business has been bought one or more individuals or even by another business. The necessary legal filings will have been made. Beyond that no further disclosure is necessary. Just because we want something, does not mean they will give it.
You mention the "dearth of creativity in the club’s marketing activity". Have you seen the thread about Sarries? People on this club's board love to knock other clubs for trying new things. You then, I think, give away what you mean by marketing activity, cheaper tickets. Sadly you finish up giving away the reason our new owners might not wish to seek the fans advice in this area "As supporters, we can see that there may well be plenty of ways to cut the numbers differently to get more bums on seats and perhaps even generate greater income". Your priority is more bums on seats, giving a better atmosphere no doubt, but only a secondary concern for you PERHAPS generating a greater income. As a business you do nothing unless it generates a greater income.
Long term you are correct in that we need a major sponsor. Hopefully the words from Sunday were not just hot air and we have a name/names in the pipeline. I would, however, be very interested to know how shirt sales this season compare to previous. Taking a random sample of 1, me, I can tell you I did buy a new shirt this year having not bought one since my first season as a STH. The chance to have an un-sponsored one was one I could not pass up. I do not feel the need to have this season's colours every season, maybe another reason I prefer Rugby to soccerball.
I don't consider myself either the naive optimist thinking all is and will be well, but neither am I a doom and gloom merchant thinking there must be something suspect going on. I fear that if no sponsor emerges, gates stay at 5k-ish per match and we don't start winning through to knock out stages of competitions then the financial situation of the club will worsen. However, I see positive signs in things like a rising star of the English game, Joe Launchbury, signing a multi-year contract. As an employee of the business I would suggest Joe is a stakeholder in the true sense of the word and as such has demonstrated his belief in the future of the business. That can only be a good thing.
Good article raising many interesting points.
A good article and I think in amongst the emotional language you do make some valid points and ask some important questions. However, the one area I do take issue with debates such as this is the concept of "stakeholders". This wooly concept that anyone who is interested in something is equally important to it.
For some sadly, for all it is simply a fact that, Premier Rugby is a professional league. As fans we are merely customers of a business. We might like to think that fandom grants us a special status, but it doesn't. A privately held business has been bought one or more individuals or even by another business. The necessary legal filings will have been made. Beyond that no further disclosure is necessary. Just because we want something, does not mean they will give it.
You mention the "dearth of creativity in the club’s marketing activity". Have you seen the thread about Sarries? People on this club's board love to knock other clubs for trying new things. You then, I think, give away what you mean by marketing activity, cheaper tickets. Sadly you finish up giving away the reason our new owners might not wish to seek the fans advice in this area "As supporters, we can see that there may well be plenty of ways to cut the numbers differently to get more bums on seats and perhaps even generate greater income". Your priority is more bums on seats, giving a better atmosphere no doubt, but only a secondary concern for you PERHAPS generating a greater income. As a business you do nothing unless it generates a greater income.
Long term you are correct in that we need a major sponsor. Hopefully the words from Sunday were not just hot air and we have a name/names in the pipeline. I would, however, be very interested to know how shirt sales this season compare to previous. Taking a random sample of 1, me, I can tell you I did buy a new shirt this year having not bought one since my first season as a STH. The chance to have an un-sponsored one was one I could not pass up. I do not feel the need to have this season's colours every season, maybe another reason I prefer Rugby to soccerball.
I don't consider myself either the naive optimist thinking all is and will be well, but neither am I a doom and gloom merchant thinking there must be something suspect going on. I fear that if no sponsor emerges, gates stay at 5k-ish per match and we don't start winning through to knock out stages of competitions then the financial situation of the club will worsen. However, I see positive signs in things like a rising star of the English game, Joe Launchbury, signing a multi-year contract. As an employee of the business I would suggest Joe is a stakeholder in the true sense of the word and as such has demonstrated his belief in the future of the business. That can only be a good thing.
Good article raising many interesting points.
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: P Ris Mark (IP Logged)
Date: 20/11/2012 17:13
Thanks LWasp for your thoughts - but there are a couple of points that hang there like a red rag.
You say: the one area I do take issue with debates such as this is the concept of "stakeholders". This wooly concept that anyone who is interested in something is equally important to it.
For some sadly, for all it is simply a fact that, Premier Rugby is a professional league. As fans we are merely customers of a business. We might like to think that fandom grants us a special status
I think that any professional sports business that treats its fans simply as customers wholly misses the point of being involved in sport. Virtually no clubs in any of our major sports make significant money for their owners. Some can build a brand, run a tidy ship and turn a small profit - but look at the debt loaded on some of our largest sporting entities?
Clubs such as Wasps are in effect an SME - and any SME that neglects its customers for any length of time will rapidly lose first goodwill, and then those very customers. But there's a much stronger potential bond between a club such as Wasps and its fans - the emotional attachment I don't have with my bank or my insurer or even Tescos. I look at clubs such as Exeter and London Welsh and look at how they've drawn on their supporter base to move forward in recent years - and people have been more than willing to give blood sweat and tears to drive things in those clubs' favour. Wasps has a great asset in its supporters that it has never really tapped into - that's the kind of stakeholder relationship I mean. I know I have no statutory right to know about the inner workings of the sale deal, but given that the club has a very able PR manager, the communication over the last few months has been less than smart.
You also say: You mention the "dearth of creativity in the club’s marketing activity". Have you seen the thread about Sarries? People on this club's board love to knock other clubs for trying new things. You then, I think, give away what you mean by marketing activity, cheaper tickets. Sadly you finish up giving away the reason our new owners might not wish to seek the fans advice in this area "As supporters, we can see that there may well be plenty of ways to cut the numbers differently to get more bums on seats and perhaps even generate greater income". Your priority is more bums on seats, giving a better atmosphere no doubt, but only a secondary concern for you PERHAPS generating a greater income. As a business you do nothing unless it generates a greater income.
First, you sound a bit patronising, but compound that by telling me what I'm thinking. Red rags again.
The key point is that the club put out the same pricing structure this season as last when last season it was a monumental failure. I understand that the timing of the sale played a part in that, but the 25% of LV tickes and 30% off one stand for the Sale game are merely exercises in chipping around the edges.
Bums on seats is actually what it's all about - but bums on seats in a way that creates a real demand to come back to the next game and the one after that - and to bring friends, and customers and to make away fans want to share the experience too.
Marketing starts with the team - that's our product. It's about making that as good as it can be within whatever constraints we're operating in. Then it's about maximising the impact of that product - getting it known to as many interested audiences as possible. I applaud the A team event next Monday at Henley when the players are doing a signing session. But the club has lost the connection it had when it first moved out to HW - the community side then was far more focused on building the brand and profile - now it's about selling coaching courses and matchday experiences for middle class Hectors and Henriettas. My mini rugby stamping ground is Oxford - and I've noticed London Welsh making big inroads there this season. They're cheaper, slicker and a bit more about engagement than tapping a revenue stream. With Dave and his cohorts, the club has a great asset to reach potential fans - but his efforts seem rather hamstrung, not least by a nut-crunching pricing structure.
The freebie tickets, kids for a quid, local radio and newspaper ticket comps both in Bucks and West London are as much about stirring up brand recognition as anything but somehow we need that now as the club is not attracting anyone other than the hardcore at the moment. We're not playing for the hardcore with 'bums on seats' - we're playing for those who can possibly be converted.
Clearly too, just offering cheap tickets won't guarantee increased revenue - but not getting more people through the gates is hardly going to drive up income either! We can hope for an attractive sponsorship deal with secondary deals in its wake as the CEO noted in the programme at the weekend, but that fortnightly revenue gleaned from clicking turnstyles still matters. Two thirds of the stadium capacity is not sold for quite a few matches and the club needs to find ways to address this - without p'ing off those people who've paid out top dollar for a season ticket. I think the club should absolutely be engaging with supporters on how they can solve this conundrum - we're a ready audience with more experience of the issues at AP than anyone buying into the club.
It has to be about creating a value for money match day experience starting with good attraction points to make people want to come; continued through a match day experience that's more than queueing for a pint in a tent. For me, that match day experience has to be about breaking down barriers between those who are paid by Wasps and those who pay to be there. We had that largely right at Loftus Road and in the first couple of years at AP, but then the mood of the club changed. If it's now repairing gences with suppliers, it could do the same and more with supporters.
Then, the ongoing key to marketing is dialogue - interesting me in opportunities that don't have to cost the club a lot but that will gain my allegiance and then my ££ through the tunstyles, in the shop and through the other avenues of relationship building.
I'm only scratching the surface - but don't ever accuse me of equating marketing to cheap seats.
Low cost marketing? My daughter's school have been invited to train with the New Zealand Maori in Stoke Mandeville on Thursday. No cost. Funny enough I've been talked into going to the Maori v Canada match at Iffley road on Friday night.
Anyway, other than that, I thought yours was a lovely post...
You say: the one area I do take issue with debates such as this is the concept of "stakeholders". This wooly concept that anyone who is interested in something is equally important to it.
For some sadly, for all it is simply a fact that, Premier Rugby is a professional league. As fans we are merely customers of a business. We might like to think that fandom grants us a special status
I think that any professional sports business that treats its fans simply as customers wholly misses the point of being involved in sport. Virtually no clubs in any of our major sports make significant money for their owners. Some can build a brand, run a tidy ship and turn a small profit - but look at the debt loaded on some of our largest sporting entities?
Clubs such as Wasps are in effect an SME - and any SME that neglects its customers for any length of time will rapidly lose first goodwill, and then those very customers. But there's a much stronger potential bond between a club such as Wasps and its fans - the emotional attachment I don't have with my bank or my insurer or even Tescos. I look at clubs such as Exeter and London Welsh and look at how they've drawn on their supporter base to move forward in recent years - and people have been more than willing to give blood sweat and tears to drive things in those clubs' favour. Wasps has a great asset in its supporters that it has never really tapped into - that's the kind of stakeholder relationship I mean. I know I have no statutory right to know about the inner workings of the sale deal, but given that the club has a very able PR manager, the communication over the last few months has been less than smart.
You also say: You mention the "dearth of creativity in the club’s marketing activity". Have you seen the thread about Sarries? People on this club's board love to knock other clubs for trying new things. You then, I think, give away what you mean by marketing activity, cheaper tickets. Sadly you finish up giving away the reason our new owners might not wish to seek the fans advice in this area "As supporters, we can see that there may well be plenty of ways to cut the numbers differently to get more bums on seats and perhaps even generate greater income". Your priority is more bums on seats, giving a better atmosphere no doubt, but only a secondary concern for you PERHAPS generating a greater income. As a business you do nothing unless it generates a greater income.
First, you sound a bit patronising, but compound that by telling me what I'm thinking. Red rags again.
The key point is that the club put out the same pricing structure this season as last when last season it was a monumental failure. I understand that the timing of the sale played a part in that, but the 25% of LV tickes and 30% off one stand for the Sale game are merely exercises in chipping around the edges.
Bums on seats is actually what it's all about - but bums on seats in a way that creates a real demand to come back to the next game and the one after that - and to bring friends, and customers and to make away fans want to share the experience too.
Marketing starts with the team - that's our product. It's about making that as good as it can be within whatever constraints we're operating in. Then it's about maximising the impact of that product - getting it known to as many interested audiences as possible. I applaud the A team event next Monday at Henley when the players are doing a signing session. But the club has lost the connection it had when it first moved out to HW - the community side then was far more focused on building the brand and profile - now it's about selling coaching courses and matchday experiences for middle class Hectors and Henriettas. My mini rugby stamping ground is Oxford - and I've noticed London Welsh making big inroads there this season. They're cheaper, slicker and a bit more about engagement than tapping a revenue stream. With Dave and his cohorts, the club has a great asset to reach potential fans - but his efforts seem rather hamstrung, not least by a nut-crunching pricing structure.
The freebie tickets, kids for a quid, local radio and newspaper ticket comps both in Bucks and West London are as much about stirring up brand recognition as anything but somehow we need that now as the club is not attracting anyone other than the hardcore at the moment. We're not playing for the hardcore with 'bums on seats' - we're playing for those who can possibly be converted.
Clearly too, just offering cheap tickets won't guarantee increased revenue - but not getting more people through the gates is hardly going to drive up income either! We can hope for an attractive sponsorship deal with secondary deals in its wake as the CEO noted in the programme at the weekend, but that fortnightly revenue gleaned from clicking turnstyles still matters. Two thirds of the stadium capacity is not sold for quite a few matches and the club needs to find ways to address this - without p'ing off those people who've paid out top dollar for a season ticket. I think the club should absolutely be engaging with supporters on how they can solve this conundrum - we're a ready audience with more experience of the issues at AP than anyone buying into the club.
It has to be about creating a value for money match day experience starting with good attraction points to make people want to come; continued through a match day experience that's more than queueing for a pint in a tent. For me, that match day experience has to be about breaking down barriers between those who are paid by Wasps and those who pay to be there. We had that largely right at Loftus Road and in the first couple of years at AP, but then the mood of the club changed. If it's now repairing gences with suppliers, it could do the same and more with supporters.
Then, the ongoing key to marketing is dialogue - interesting me in opportunities that don't have to cost the club a lot but that will gain my allegiance and then my ££ through the tunstyles, in the shop and through the other avenues of relationship building.
I'm only scratching the surface - but don't ever accuse me of equating marketing to cheap seats.
Low cost marketing? My daughter's school have been invited to train with the New Zealand Maori in Stoke Mandeville on Thursday. No cost. Funny enough I've been talked into going to the Maori v Canada match at Iffley road on Friday night.
Anyway, other than that, I thought yours was a lovely post...
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: Lwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 20/11/2012 18:15
PRM,
Apologies, did not mean to tell you what you were thinking, more pick out what I hought you meant from your post.
Again you make some good points. I personally think, and have argued on previous threads that the long term survival of Rugby in this country requires it and us to realise it can not continue as football has i.e. believing there is a never ending line of rich people looking for a trophy asset that costs a fortune.
"Virtually no clubs in any of our major sports make significant money for their owners. Some can build a brand, run a tidy ship and turn a small profit - but look at the debt loaded on some of our largest sporting entities?" This has to change. US professional sports teams are run as a business, and whilst not everything they do is applicable or desirable in rugby I think they are much more the model we should aspire to than football.
If we beat the Tiggers on Sunday all this will seem academic for another week!!
Apologies, did not mean to tell you what you were thinking, more pick out what I hought you meant from your post.
Again you make some good points. I personally think, and have argued on previous threads that the long term survival of Rugby in this country requires it and us to realise it can not continue as football has i.e. believing there is a never ending line of rich people looking for a trophy asset that costs a fortune.
"Virtually no clubs in any of our major sports make significant money for their owners. Some can build a brand, run a tidy ship and turn a small profit - but look at the debt loaded on some of our largest sporting entities?" This has to change. US professional sports teams are run as a business, and whilst not everything they do is applicable or desirable in rugby I think they are much more the model we should aspire to than football.
If we beat the Tiggers on Sunday all this will seem academic for another week!!
Re: We had joy we had fun...
Posted by: welsh wasp (IP Logged)
Date: 23/11/2012 18:09
Well-written the article may well be and no doubt some of the contributions are too, but there is such a lot of unfounded speculation. Even a comment that supporters have walked away because they are not happy with something/someone or other. Fine if that is what they feel but is it the new owners' fault?
A group bought the club from Steve Hayes, much to our relief - but now some people have turned very suspicious of them. Those who are waiting to see how the season develops, probably like me with their fingers crossed, do not contribute to these threads. So we get the views of a number of people who are generally unhappy about progress. On the playing side, the financial side, the marketing side, perhaps even the location of the ground.
The new opwners didn't have to buy the club, but they did. If they had not, where would we be now? Perhaps we should be glad the mysterious Mr Moss was involved rather than wonder where he is.
A group bought the club from Steve Hayes, much to our relief - but now some people have turned very suspicious of them. Those who are waiting to see how the season develops, probably like me with their fingers crossed, do not contribute to these threads. So we get the views of a number of people who are generally unhappy about progress. On the playing side, the financial side, the marketing side, perhaps even the location of the ground.
The new opwners didn't have to buy the club, but they did. If they had not, where would we be now? Perhaps we should be glad the mysterious Mr Moss was involved rather than wonder where he is.
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