Game Thread: Sarries vs Wasps (Incl. Team News)

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Such a shame we made so many mistakes in the first half when we had the opportunities....
Must have been raining in North London - or maybe the guys not focussed enough..

Hope MC settles in - seemed somewhat shy if contact?

Defense held firm for quite a while which was encouraging

One where we could have edged it had we been more clinical, even if we know we seem porous in last 20

Welcome back everyone!

We didn’t quite have enough did we?

I thought there might have been an upset on the cards but they were able to bring on a stronger bench and eventually their class showed.

The scrum looked good in parts and I thought TJ Harris (a Coventry kid) did very well on his debut. Kieran Brookes looked good too. Rowlands had another strong game.

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steve from cov
Rowlands had another strong game.

You think?

I thought he ade a lot of unforced errors (including losing the ball a couple of metres out from their line killing our attack) and gave away several unnecessary penalties.

If we'd had Launch I reckon we might have edged it.

Another Wasps Discussion Forum - [onceawasp.com]

Yesterday was frustrating. Before the match I didn't think we would get within 10 point and Sarries would comfortably put us away.

Yet during the match, mainly the first half we matched them and defended pretty well. The problem was giving away the penalties that allowed Sarries to build a score. Then we get into a situation where we're chasing the game, which reach it's nadir with Elliot's unfortunate no look pass to Isiekwe.

Our scrum looked iffy yesterday though sitting in the stands I couldn't tell if Kieran was having a bad day/Titi had a good one or if the ref was just making it up.

Parts of yesterday were good, generally we kept the ball pretty well. Though when we had lots of phases in second half we still couldn't fashion a try. It's annoying we couldn't capitalise on Sarries errors, but they showed how good a side they were by pulling away in the end.

Not sure what this means for the next two EC games, but I think we should be good for Bath/Quin festive matches.

Onwards and upwards.

If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi

Lots to build on from that performance, attitude, application and structure looked a lot better. We really are down to the bare bones so no surprise to see Saffas pull away at the end.

The pack went well again, Hampson had a good game and Ross Neal looks the real deal.

Brookes absolutely destroyed the Sarries loosehead, unfortunately JP Doyle was a disgrace and decided that the Sarries loosehead deserved a penalty every time he took a step to the left to drive at s right angle.

However despite the positives it is incredibly frustrating that it’s the same two usual suspects in the backs who make the mistakes that gift the opposition points.

I was encouraged by the game. We looked a lot more coherent defensively. I'm wondering if the mantra that De Jongh improves us defensively is now subject to challenge. I'd like to see Daly get a run at 13 especially as we now have wing and FB options in more plentiful supply than before. We could have won the game if we'd been more clinical but the pressure Sarries put on shouldn't be underestimated. Thought the front row stood up well and our back row options look great (Shields was outstanding). I'm not so sure about our second row back up options. For me we look like top four should be more than do-able.

Well played Wasps, nice to have you back.
I thought it was an excellent game with Wasps defence proving very resilient and Sarries having enough for the win but nowhere close to the margin some were talking about before the game.

All the best for the upcoming European games.

Other than for Italy, how much game time has Campo had? He looked way off the pace yesterday.

Positives outweigh the negatives.

We were much more competitive on the gain line. JPD was his usual anti wasps at scrum time. nate looks really fresh, which I guess only having played 5 minutes rugby in the previous 7 weeks he should be!

Hopefully the LTIs will start to come back into the playing squad in the next month or so.

The more I see of Ross Neal, the more I think that this lad has a real future at this level and beyond. Oghre continues to impress, as does Ben Morris.

The 13 choice is a conundrum for Dai - JdJ or ED?

I have been greatly encouraged by Wasps performances over the last two games (Bristol should not be under estimated, and many believe Sarries to ge one of the top teams in Europe).
Of particular surprise was how well our front row performed yesterday, even with a guest - and ding dong Doyles interpretations being a mystery at times (or maybe being judged on expectation rather than reality?)
At last we appeared to be playing as a team rather than purely as talented individuals. Not that I would like to see individuals talents confined by "structured" play as per Sarries and Cheifs style, effective though it is. And this despite the turbulence of players, including bringing in for yesterday debutants and some relatively inexperienced at this level.
Just hope that we can start to recover from the horrendous injury list and get some stability. Expect results to start turning our way in the near future.
COYW

Overall it went better than I thought it would, despite the scorline. In the scrum we mostly looked to have the upper hand and Brookes was good all game and should have been better rewarded,I loved his cameo on the wing! I was also impressed with all of the new boys in our front row, despite their lack of experience at this level, they stood up well.

At key moments in the first and second half, we either lost the ball or knocked it on, losing momentum when we could have scored. Lima was having a great game for 30 mins (and he seems to benefit from playing with WLR), until he kicked the ball out on the full leading to their first try and dropped the ball from the easiest of passes. After that he seemed to lose confidence. Back row really played well. Second row really needs Launchbury and Gaskell back. Backs defended better than recently and line speed improved. Hughes gave us some great front foot ball yesterday but we were unable to turn that into points and we need to rediscover some fluidity and pace in attack

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Vespulavulgaris

Quote:

steve from cov
Rowlands had another strong game.

You think?

I thought he ade a lot of unforced errors (including losing the ball a couple of metres out from their line killing our attack) and gave away several unnecessary penalties.

If we'd had Launch I reckon we might have edged it.

Have to agree with Vespulavulgaris, thought Rowlands made a lot of mistakes, I personally think he has to improve a lot and be more consistent.

I thought we were good defensively but really lacked any attack, considering the constant change of playing staff it’s not a surprise but hell to we need gopperth back at his best ASAP

Just thinking about our injuries yesterday is frightening really, especially in the pack

TH- 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th (Hunt) choice injured or unavailable, therefore loan ed player required
H - 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice injured
LH - 1st, 2nd, injured
2r - 1st choice pairing both injured
9 - 1st and 2nd choice injured

Obviously the forwards take a lot more than the backs, at set piece, ruck time and in their tackle stats but this is starting to look a little ridiculous with how many forwards we have injured



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018:12:02:11:04:46 by jonnydeane.

Brookes was awesome, but got on the wrong side of JP Doyle. The Sarries loosehead was stepping out at every scrum. It made Kieran look like he wasn’t driving straight.

I’ll take the performance. Silly errors cost us a losing bonus. Lima, Elliott and Willie all negligent, losing territory, and Sarries punished us. It’s why they’re where thwy are. Shouldn’t detract from a much-improved showing from an injury-ridden team.

Bring on Toulouse.

Watching the first hour of play I couldn't help but notice the difference that Skelton and Itoje make to the game. Our lock forwards work hard and no doubt make a big contribution, but they rarely get us going forward with driving runs

Okay so it was more not getting the ref onside rather than Kieran having a bad game. Annoying to say the least, especially as for the majority of the match we stood toe to toe with Sarries.

I can understand why Kieran was miffed walking off at half time.

If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi

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BertyWasp
Watching the first hour of play I couldn't help but notice the difference that Skelton and Itoje make to the game. Our lock forwards work hard and no doubt make a big contribution, but they rarely get us going forward with driving runs

Spot on. We miss Launchbury and Gaskell but I do think second row is an area of slight concern for us. We seem to focus recruitment elsewhere and have younger players coming through pretty much in every other area. I have a slight concern about Rowlands in particular. I'd love to see him impose himself on games more. If we get parity in the second row we've done well. Need to have them giving us the advantage (as you quite rightly say Itoje and Skelton did).

I agree that Campo looked a little off the pace-but he improved in the second half so I think he’s another who’ll just need a bedding in period. He hasn’t played much.
When the teams were announced, I actually thought for the first time that we could squeak it if we clicked. We nearly clicked-some errors, some panic but we were in the game a lot longer than I’d feared up until that team announcement.
Kieran Brookes was excellent and hard done by in the scrum on occasions.
Lima is starting to show his worth, still a couple of errors. But even wonderboy and WLR put kicks out on the full about once every other game and always at the Allianz when their Defence is on top of you.
Can’t help thinking that Dan Robson would have made a big difference-not because Hampson did anything wrobg-just because Dan is different gravy.
Same could be said for Jimmy Gopperth to be fair.

If everyone is fit and doesn’t need resting, I wouldn’t change a lot for the next game.

What about Tim Cardall? Some serious quality and go forwards with him. I think he has a younger brother who is just as good, who I have seen in an A game.

Why not use the 'other' Wasps forum? [onceawasp.com]

Here is a video of him going forwards:

[www.youtube.com]

Why not use the 'other' Wasps forum? [onceawasp.com]

Kieran Brookes looked furious when he was subbed as well- I don’t think he was a happy bunny in general. I was sat directly behind the dug out and he was giving it some when he came off. I don’t think he was too amused with Sir.

I still don't understand those who think that it is better to lose 20-10 than 60-30. All this talk of defence, defence. defence when what we actually need is tries- 4 per game.

To be fair we were scrumming against an extra man, the one with the whistle and pink shirt, and the game was tight and a decent reflection on a team that had some third and fourth choice players starting in some positions, and a very weak bench. We could probably put out a fifteen of injured players that would beat the one we did put out. It was nice to see Nathan of old, and our front row did well considering.


I am not sure about the idea of a second 5/8 on the other thread. I think our second row needs more attention.

Not going to discuss Lima, beyond saying too early to judge with what has gone on this year. With every win or defeat being laid at his door by some, I think we can all agree that his presence made little material difference to the result yesterday. There was nothing to show that he is anything more than a solid fly half who looks for work and has a bit of control. Goode was the better of the tens out of position.

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maire23
Kieran Brookes looked furious when he was subbed as well- I don’t think he was a happy bunny in general. I was sat directly behind the dug out and he was giving it some when he came off. I don’t think he was too amused with Sir.

I don’t blame him, he put in one of the most dominant scrum performances you will see from a prop.

Doyle was dreadful and fell for Saracens whooping and clapping too easily.

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Bracken&Macken

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maire23
Kieran Brookes looked furious when he was subbed as well- I don’t think he was a happy bunny in general. I was sat directly behind the dug out and he was giving it some when he came off. I don’t think he was too amused with Sir.

I don’t blame him, he put in one of the most dominant scrum performances you will see from a prop.

Doyle was dreadful and fell for Saracens whooping and clapping too easily.

It’s a question of balance. Might be getting dominance in the scrum albeit some pens against, but contribution outside of the scrum is minimal.....at best.

[robsbl0g.blogspot.co.uk]
@robsmithrugby

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Rob Smith

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Bracken&Macken

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maire23
Kieran Brookes looked furious when he was subbed as well- I don’t think he was a happy bunny in general. I was sat directly behind the dug out and he was giving it some when he came off. I don’t think he was too amused with Sir.

I don’t blame him, he put in one of the most dominant scrum performances you will see from a prop.

Doyle was dreadful and fell for Saracens whooping and clapping too easily.

It’s a question of balance. Might be getting dominance in the scrum albeit some pens against, but contribution outside of the scrum is minimal.....at best.

If my tight head is dominant in the scrum I don't my if they aren't doing much else to be honest. I don't subscribe to the theories that props should be breaking the line etc.

We lost for our personal errors . So much knock-ons all the game. Mainly in their 22. Not good enough.

JP , he should have a review about his recent form, in all the latests matches. He lost his usual standars. Kieran by a country of mile, had de edge at scrum time. Good job Kieran.

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Rob Smith

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Bracken&Macken

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maire23
Kieran Brookes looked furious when he was subbed as well- I don’t think he was a happy bunny in general. I was sat directly behind the dug out and he was giving it some when he came off. I don’t think he was too amused with Sir.

I don’t blame him, he put in one of the most dominant scrum performances you will see from a prop.

Doyle was dreadful and fell for Saracens whooping and clapping too easily.

It’s a question of balance. Might be getting dominance in the scrum albeit some pens against, but contribution outside of the scrum is minimal.....at best.

It must have been a different bearded prop I saw running down the wing past me in the West stand during the first half, in one of our few attacking moments.

I think Kieran has been one of Wasps better players this season. Granted that might not sound like a lot, but he's been good for us since he's joined.

If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi

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Shugs

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Rob Smith

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Bracken&Macken

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maire23
Kieran Brookes looked furious when he was subbed as well- I don’t think he was a happy bunny in general. I was sat directly behind the dug out and he was giving it some when he came off. I don’t think he was too amused with Sir.

I don’t blame him, he put in one of the most dominant scrum performances you will see from a prop.

Doyle was dreadful and fell for Saracens whooping and clapping too easily.

It’s a question of balance. Might be getting dominance in the scrum albeit some pens against, but contribution outside of the scrum is minimal.....at best.

If my tight head is dominant in the scrum I don't my if they aren't doing much else to be honest. I don't subscribe to the theories that props should be breaking the line etc.

Well as I said, it’s a question of balance. He was taken off for a reason and would suggest work rate was it. Btw not me who took him off.

[robsbl0g.blogspot.co.uk]
@robsmithrugby

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Rob Smith

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Shugs

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Rob Smith

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Bracken&Macken

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maire23
Kieran Brookes looked furious when he was subbed as well- I don’t think he was a happy bunny in general. I was sat directly behind the dug out and he was giving it some when he came off. I don’t think he was too amused with Sir.

I don’t blame him, he put in one
of the most dominant scrum performances you will see from a prop.

Doyle was dreadful and fell for Saracens whooping and clapping too easily.

It’s a question of balance. Might be getting dominance in the scrum albeit some pens against, but contribution outside of the scrum is minimal.....at best.

If my tight head is dominant in the scrum I don't my if they aren't doing much else to be honest. I don't subscribe to the theories that props should be breaking the line etc.

Well as I said, it’s a question of balance. He was taken off for a reason and would suggest work rate was it. Btw not me who took him off.

Take your point but props being replaced at that stage in the game is nothing particularly unusual. Brookes has surprised me in a good way since he joined. I agree that he must maintain and not let his work rate slide. There's no sign of that happening yet for me.

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Shugs

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Rob Smith

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Shugs

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Rob Smith

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Bracken&Macken

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maire23
Kieran Brookes looked furious when he was subbed as well- I don’t think he was a happy bunny in general. I was sat directly behind the dug out and he was giving it some when he came off. I don’t think he was too amused with Sir.

I don’t blame him, he put in one
of the most dominant scrum performances you will see from a prop.

Doyle was dreadful and fell for Saracens whooping and clapping too easily.

It’s a question of balance. Might be getting dominance in the scrum albeit some pens against, but contribution outside of the scrum is minimal.....at best.

If my tight head is dominant in the scrum I don't my if they aren't doing much else to be honest. I don't subscribe to the theories that props should be breaking the line etc.

Well as I said, it’s a question of balance. He was taken off for a reason and would suggest work rate was it. Btw not me who took him off.

Take your point but props being replaced at that stage in the game is nothing particularly unusual. Brookes has surprised me in a good way since he joined. I agree that he must maintain and not let his work rate slide. There's no sign of that happening yet for me.

I think the concern at Saints was Brookes lack of work outside of the scrum which is why he came to us and disappeared off England’s radar too.

Having said that, I don’t know what’s going on with JP Doyle. A reasonable ref a couple of seasons ago, he’s now making it up and absolutely clueless at the breakdown. I really don’t think he likes us, particularly after his scrum reffing yesterday, but Sanderson was as diplomatically scathing as he could be about him at the breakdown after yesterday’s game and I saw criticisms of his breakdown work earlier this season too.

I thought our front row did really well yesterday but ultimately Sarries were in second gear throughout, even when the bench came on. We never really asked any questions and once we’d fallen 7 points behind weren’t going to get much out of the game.

I was really proud of the performance on Saturday, they gave Sarries a run for their money for 50 minutes and better handling could have provided us with a try or two. What Sarries are great at doing is forcing a game to be played the way they want it to be, they had a 6/2 bench and more experienced players within the replacements, therefore the last 30 minutes isn't a huge surprise that we fell off a bit.

Brookes is very unfortunate because he did some really good work in the scrum and didn't get any reward. I hope he takes that into his future performances.

Mark McColl’s interview at the end of the game was interesting. Speaking about Farrell, he mentioned about giving him a mental break from the pressure of the Autumn and that each of their returning internationals had their own 6-week plan with pre-determined rest periods.

I could be wrong (and injuries and perhaps a weaker academy make it difficult for us) but it seems like Dai takes it very much week by week. By all accounts, he’s a decent man-manager but could do with perhaps looking at managing some of our internationals. Or, at least, certainly one of them looks like he could do with a mental break in Daly.

He just looks knackered, big Lions Tour, 6N, Summer and not Autumn Internationals. The short-term potential hit of not having him in our squad would give us a better long-term gain.

That being said, from the suggestions of the commentators, it sounds like McColl has a plan for Daly too...

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InbetweenWasp
Mark McColl’s interview at the end of the game was interesting. Speaking about Farrell, he mentioned about giving him a mental break from the pressure of the Autumn and that each of their returning internationals had their own 6-week plan with pre-determined rest periods.
I could be wrong (and injuries and perhaps a weaker academy make it difficult for us) but it seems like Dai takes it very much week by week. By all accounts, he’s a decent man-manager but could do with perhaps looking at managing some of our internationals. Or, at least, certainly one of them looks like he could do with a mental break in Daly.

He just looks knackered, big Lions Tour, 6N, Summer and not Autumn Internationals. The short-term potential hit of not having him in our squad would give us a better long-term gain.

That being said, from the suggestions of the commentators, it sounds like McColl has a plan for Daly too...

I think our problem boils down simply to injuries.

If before the start of the season Sarries lost Faz or Loz coupled with having to start the season without Mako, no Titi, no Barrington, no George, no Tolofua and lose Kruis/Maro early into the season to injury. Then follow that up with Billy getting banned for social media comments (alongside citeable offence) and Liam Williams being unavailable for all but one game during the first seven matches. I would suggest they'd struggle just a bit.

Isn't that sort of what happened last season with their horrendous run?

We're not in an ideal position, but we are doing better than rest bar Gloucester. While it's risky to get over confident, I'd be surprised if we were to finish outside of the top 5.

Dai can't rest players as much as he'd like to with our current injury list. We're not the only club suffering, but we are stretched with resources.

If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi

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InbetweenWasp
Mark McColl’s interview at the end of the game was interesting. Speaking about Farrell, he mentioned about giving him a mental break from the pressure of the Autumn and that each of their returning internationals had their own 6-week plan with pre-determined rest periods.

That being said, from the suggestions of the commentators, it sounds like McColl has a plan for Daly too...

I don't think McCall mentioned him (technically that would be breaking the rules about tapping players up before Jan) but the commentater did.

They probably read the same online rumours that we do but they will have access to a lot more inside knowledge (Lol being on the Wasps board) than we do.

Given that Barrett has a face primarily made out of titanium and possibly coming up to retirement then maybe this rumour has legs in it.

To be fair, I really did feel sorry for George. Those nasty wasps kept pushing him and making him stand up in the scrum. Fortunately the ref was very sympathetic and kept giving him the penalty.

In one incident, JP lectured both opposing props on driving straight and then penalised Brookes where the Sarries prop can be seen clearly driving across.

JP also doesn't seem to listen to players when they approach him. Not a fan in general, he does seem to have dipped in form over the last year or so.

Best game Brookes has played for us. Really aggressive in defence, standing his ground and getting in people's faces, and carrying well.

Couldn't believe some of the calls, but thems the breaks. The frustrating thing were the two tries - both came from stupid mistakes. George's because Willie rushes out for an intercept thats never on, when he could just make a tackle. And Lord knows what Daly was thinking. Keeping Sarries to two tries, with our dopey defence and depleted squad, was pretty bloody good and a big step forwards

[quote Nomad_Wasp]Best game Brookes has played for us. Really aggressive in defence, standing his ground and getting in people's faces, and carrying well. (Quote)

Happy to withdraw my previous comments about work rate which are based on previous games but only on the extended highlights of the Sarries game. If I’m wrong I’ll get back to you.

[robsbl0g.blogspot.co.uk]
@robsmithrugby

No worries, just how I saw it. It seemed he was working harder than in previous games, where I think the criticism was fair

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bg
Given that Barrett has a face primarily made out of titanium and possibly coming up to retirement then maybe this rumour has legs in it.

I've said before I'm pretty confident this is nothing but Daly's agent talking up interest to get his client a better salary.
I'd be surprised if Daly doesn't stay with you on an increased salary and would be staggered if there is any truth in any interest from Sarries. He's neither needed or the sort of value proposition that would make signing him make sense. As for the idea of him at 12 instead of Barritt ...

You know he's a quality player and I think he'll remain so for Wasps.

Considering Sarries have been complaining about not being able to re-sign the players they've got, how could they sign Daly?