Little difference between the sides - Irish v Saints
By Jon_R43
January 3 2010
So after 40 GP games in a row (42 if you count the GP semi and final) with at least one match point Irish took the trip up the M1 to Franklin’s Gardens . People who know our family will know that LKR was predicting a big loss, the children were confident and I hoped for a win but worried about the possibility of it going wrong but thought we had the team to at least compete and keep the run going.
We stopped on route at a service station and had our first encounter with a Saints supporter. “As long as we get the bonus point” I say, “lacking confidence” he replies” I thought you would want 4.” “As long as Mr Geraghty doesn’t come off the bench and affect the result, I’ll take one.” I reply.
Arriving at the ground we wait for the team to arrive. Same joke as last year from the music department at Saints, the coach pulls up the team get off and “Here come the girls” is played over the loud speaker system.
LKR comments that she didn’t see Elvis get off coach, “You must have missed him” we say but when the team is announced no Elvis!! Tom is moved to centre with John Rudd coming onto the wing and Topsy onto the bench (Welcome back) Looks like those who want Peter at Full back and Delon at 13 may have to accept that Toby is going to play the other way in most situations.
We make our way to our seats in the corner of the ground and find a good number of Irish supporters with Bodhrans (will they be at Worcester??) in good voice to greet the team who take to the pitch. It’s a cold day and the match reporter’s notes may suffer!
The team are followed out by Sean “Wavey” Davey who according to one of the editors of this board (Sorry Griff!) in a post the week has “got a lot better…. I rate him these days” we shall see what we think by the end of the match.
Irish start the game (straight down the centre) between the two sides who according to many play the most attractive rugby in the premiership. The chances of 9 -6 final score are debated in the stand and supporters on both sides near us admit they have predicted similar! The first 5 minutes show Irish pressure and some running rugby that made 9-6 look unlikely
7 minutes into the half and Mr Davey gives Saints a penalty as Irish come off-side Myler takes the 3 points to put Saints into an early lead. From the restart (straight down the centre) Irish are given a somewhat fortunate knock on which seemed to go forward off a Saints boot the scrum leads to a line out to Saints in their own 22 and from one of the rucks moving away from the line out a penalty was awarded for holding which allowed Chris Malone to level for Irish.
Half way through the half and Irish are playing well but seem to be really struggling at line out time but are in the game and possibly slightly on top. Mr Davey is stopping the game regularly for a range of penalties but no cards are produced. David appears to be dropped into touch at one point but cleverly keeps the ball in play and the game continues. Saints come more into the game but Irish pick up 2 more penalties both for Saints players holding on to take the lead out to 3 – 9.
8 minutes to go in the half and Mr Davey gives Bob the most serious looking warning so far and then awards a penalty to Saints. The silence at Saints when kicking is taking place is very impressive but on this occasion the local constabulary have not been informed and the silence is broken by a police car driving past the ground.
With a couple of minutes to go in the half Irish are attacking and the ball is at the back of a maul. The Saints line and Courtney Lawes in particular move up. Mr Davey motions to him and the Irish support hope for a penalty (I thought I saw him signal for one) Chris clearly thinks the same as he goes for the drop goal which he missed. That’s ok we think, there is a penalty coming but no, Mr Davey motions for a 22. Irish regain possession and another drop is attempted which is touched in flight and cleared. The first half ends Irish 9 Saints 6.
The second half starts and Irish are still struggling at the line out which maybe explains why Saints in the first 5 minutes turn down a couple of possible shots at goal and kick to the corner, one was particularly worrying as it was given for a high tackle which I look down to record in the notes after commenting to the Saints support behind us that they might regret not taking the points. I look up and Saints are pushing towards the line Dowson scores . Sam (a ref you know) questions the feed to the line out (Crooked/ Short/ or both) but I missed it on the day and still haven’t seen any replays (11 – 9 Saints)
Saints are getting a bit on top at this stage Rudd is taken to the ground when clearing a ball right in front of the Irish support with an arm that was wrapped around his neck, Messrs Davey and Maybank don’t see any problem and play on (still no cards) 14 minutes in and one of the Irish players moves early Mr Davey makes a similar signal to the one given to Lawes in the first half but this time the penalty is awarded which is again kicked to the corner. From the line out Saints continue to attack and as the ball comes across the back line Peter Hewat gambles and cuts out a pass. That’s the attack over we think but people say Peter is slowing down he probably won’t score from our 22 How wrong we were not only did he go the length of the field but with the lines he ran to keep the defence guessing the running distance must have been well over 100 metres. Try scored and converted by Chris (11-16 to Irish.)
From the restart Irish earn another penalty which is again scored 11 – 19 up and 15 minutes remain with Saints needing 2 scores. Unfortunately Irish concede a penalty from the restart and the 2 score lead on this occasion only lasted for a minute.
12 minutes to go and a certain former Irish player comes on to the pitch (Anxiety builds in the stands) is Shane going to have a big impact? Well initially it doesn’t look like it as we control possession and take the ball down the field Malone gets the drop goal and restores the 2 score lead. (14-22)
With 9 minutes to go Saints earn a penalty and Shane steps up, he misses and the Saints support behind us comment “That’s the different between the sides … Irish are kicking their penalties” I say to LKR that could be the title for the match report “Shane the difference between the sides!”
7 minutes left and we still hold a 8 point lead so from an Irish perspective I make the mistake of starting to relax. After all last week against Sarries when we got to 2 scores ahead there was no way they were going to manage to score one try never mind two especially as at that stage the game plan was to kick them 80 metres away and challenge them to come back. Unfortunately for us Saints are a much more useful attacking side and continue to pressure, Chris H is penalised for a High tackle and we fear it could be more but instead Mr Davey points to the posts and Shane scores the conversion.
Oh well I think a bonus point to Saint and 4 for us is still a great result as the clock ticks to 5 minutes Irish have possession and are taking the ball up towards half way in Chris’s hands, he has Maps outside him and there is space behind them. “Kick for the corner” I say, Chris passes to Maps “OK keep possession then” but Maps goes for the kick. Unfortunately, Maps kick takes a bounce and rolls towards the end of the pitch. From the corner I couldn’t see the if it stopped (Those in a better position than me including the BBC suggest it did but Mr Davey brings the play back a long, long way (Past the point of the kick?) giving Saints an attacking scrum in our half. The clock continues to run and the time is down to 1.41 when Tom tackles Shane and the ball gets stuck in the ruck.
A scrum is awarded but the clock doesn’t restart. Anyway from our corner It’s OK as Irish seem to have driven Saints off the ball. Mr Davey blows his whistle saying that the scrum had come up and orders a reset scrum with Saints ball. Irish fans, and possibly Toby, will argue that the result of the scrum should have been either Irish scrum or Irish penalty but unfortunately the last feed is given to Saints and this time the clock does restart.
Geraghty passes to Ashton who juggles the ball , “drop it” we hope, but he just manages to gather and crosses the line and is enveloped by several Irish players as they fall to the ground. 1.27 on the clock and Mr Davey awards the try (Having just seen the replay for the first time on Sky the view is not conclusive) there were several Irish players trying to hold him up and there was no clear grounding from my perspective but also no proof that it wasn’t grounded Mr Davey arrived late and awards the try.
It’s 22-22 and Saints have a conversion to go into the lead but surely there would be a restart. Some of the Irish players tried to encourage Shane to take the kick quickly but Saints are allowed to take all the remaining time before the conversion is scored and Mr Davey points to the tunnel. Geraghty leads the celebrations and as some said afterwards “You would think Saints had won the title.” We left the ground and spoke to a number of disappointed fans and players who thought that we could and maybe should have won but in close games refereeing decisions will have an effect.
What to the rest of the season? We are still handily positioned with 5 teams clearly ahead of the chasing pack and 4 places in the playoffs we will need to continue to work hard (and keep the points in every game run going?) if we are to avoid having to go to any of the other clubs in the playoffs – the last game of the regular season (Irish v Saints) looms large in the distance.
Personally, I have still not seen the club win at FG, Welford Road, Adam’s Park or Vicarage Road so would prefer a home tie, but that said the 0 – 17 at Quins in the semi-final is still one of my favourite Irish experiences and repeating that in the playoffs would be good news.
Of the two sides we have played over Christmas I would prefer to save Saints for the final as they are a side who play a good brand of rugby but for now lets focus on Worcester next week.
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No alcohol for January. I'm a dryathlete in aid of cancer research.
Dryathlon
An excellent report and how I saw the game from a few rows behind you.
I was one of those who commented on the Saints celebrating like they had won the league. On reflection I think it showed how desperate their players and fans were to win that game. A good point gained imho rather than 4 lost
Sean Davey is still way better than Mr White or (shudder) Mr Mayhew.
Celebbrating like we;'d won the league? Nope dont think so - we just enjoyed the win. Saints are a season or two behind LI in terms of development and that ( like the Bath game ) is one we'd have lost last season. We're celebrating a step on our development - when we win the league you'll see real celebration! ;-)
To me the celebrations are just pure team spirit and a big release of the pressure and tension. Irish are a big scalp to take especially in such a manner. Good luck and see you at your place.
Come On You Saints
"Having just seen the replay for the first time on Sky the view is not conclusive"
Have a look here:
[www.rugbynetwork.net]
Looks like Mr Davey's positioning is not great to give it either from the other shots.
In my view a try was probably scored - would certainly have been given the benefit of the doubt in the olden days - but forgive me for asking, can you tell me which of those photos conclusively shows the grounding of the ball?
Had it been a televised match would Mr Davey have awarded the score then and there or gone upstairs (which seem the fashion these days), and if the latter what would the question have been? If on TV then there would be more camera angles to view it with but based on what I've seen to date, if the question was 'has a try been scored, yes or no?' then I wonder....
Totally irrelevant I know as the result of what by all accounts appears to have been a totally absorbing match will of course stand.
But does beg the question whether a TV official or whatever they're called should be available at all Premiership games. Why should some games be decided by slow motion replay from all angles, and others on probability?
Looking forward to the return fixture when hopefully we'll reverse the result.
Quote:ChrisD
In my view a try was probably scored - would certainly have been given the benefit of the doubt in the olden days - but forgive me for asking, can you tell me which of those photos conclusively shows the grounding of the ball?
The massive one at the start of the thread that shows the ball (and Chris Ashton) embedded in the turf?
Considering other angles (such as the Daily Mail report) that would be alike to a TMO shot (ie, to the side) have shown similar findings to Claire's shots I'd say it would be given either way.
If your board was censored like what the western media would have you believe the Russian press is, this would be the last thing you ever write for the Craic. As it is, I hope you write many more...
fat bloke green shirt.
Thank you!
I do think that Wavey Davey seemed strangely reluctant to get his cards out but Nick Kennedy might well have seen yellow for punching Lawes early on. NK seemed an unhappy boy through most of the game.
Thanks for an absorbing game and looking forward to the return at Reading.
so thanks very much for your report.timmeh!
Too fat to live, too lazy to die!
Quote:timmeh!
[pedant mode] Shouldn't the title read ... Saints v Irish? [/pedant mode]
No no no ....Irish+Saints v The Officials.
We did'nt have a clue what was going on and neither did the players methinks which gave rise to the bad grumpy moments on the pitch and off. Pity, v enjoyable day otherwise whoever won.
Ho hum onwards and upwards !
The look of the table with Sorries and Pests losing is a lot better than most Exiles would have hoped for on New Years Day.
It seemed to sum up what I saw from the South Stand.
I thought the ref did ok for us until the last 2 minutes. I don't think we could have felt hard done by if eithe Chris H or Kendo had been sin binned as both were pinged far too often for needless penalties.
I was gobsmacked that despite pushing their scrum back 5 yards and it having turned in the process, we did not get the put in at least in the final minutes. What was even more galling was that the clock was stopped throughout!
I'm more concerned about the fact that we let Ashton go through the middle of the back line despite the players being positioned correctly. I bet Ellis and Toby aren't too pleased with that.
Disappointing to conceed the try in the manner that we did but I'd have probably taken a losing bonus point prior to the game. I enjoyed the Franklins Garden experience once again and had a good laugh with the Saints fans around me, even with the Trumpet (Worcester, Take Note!!!).
S
ITV highlights
I agree with you, that LI got the push on with the first scrum, but that doesn't mean the Saints pack went backwards. You were unlucky that you didn't get the put in on the reset, but when the front rows and back rows end up in two different places, then it is going to be likely that the scrum would be simply reset. Obvioulsy Wavey didn't see a penalty offence, as both Dylan and one of your front rows went up, and as LI hadn't wheeled the scrum around 90 or pushed the Saints off the ball, you can also see why the ref just reset it. It could have gone either way, thankfully for us, it went the Saints way.
Can you honestly say that with the scrum moving back that fast (8:06 in the clip) there was no penalty from Saints ? If you can then frankly you're more one-eyed than the worst on here. That scrum was decimated and if a ref doesn't give the penalty to the team that put that much effort in then we may as well go to rugby league scrums.
I presume you can explain how an opposing hooker can lift his head without dislodging any of the opposing front-row ?
As for the scrum, yes it was a good one from LI, I'm not denying it in the slightest, but it didn't push ours back at all, only crabbed sideways, even though Toby went on record after the game saying contrary. I think LI were unlucky not to get the put in, but can also see why the ref just reset it as it was a complete mess.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010:01:05:17:13:44 by Saint.Kenneth.
It didn't go backwards... that's all I was saying. I agree that you were unlucky not to have had the put in, but then that's part of home advantage I suppose. Many a DoR this seaon has said that the 12,000 refs at FG give most of the decisions!!
The player taking the throw-in must stand at the correct place. The player must not step into the field of play when the ball is thrown. The ball must be thrown straight, so that it travels at least 5 metres along the line of touch before it first touches the ground or touches or is touched by a player.
look carefully at that clip on 4 mins.
Are you telling me that put in went 5m?
Actually neither of the saints 'tries' should have stood
However if ya fancy playing the woulda-coulda-shoulda game what about our 1 man advantage we were due for 20 mins of the game?
I've played in games where a knock-on has been awarded for the ball moving forward from a chest-high rebound. Did that ball go forward off Ashton's arm ? If so it's a knock-on, an advantage gained from a pass not initially to hand and moving forward from any part of the body, a basic law of the game. Poor officiating again.
Ashton regathered it himself before it had touched either another player or the ground.
Deffo not a knock on.
3 other totally knack decisions involved in the 2nd try, but aknock on wasn't one of them
Law 12 Knock on or Throw On
Definition Knock on
A knock on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it
The strange this is, it wasn't the craip officiating that enabled them to score, it was the "disruption" caused by a "mistake" (perhaps not the right word) causing the defense to have to adjust to something they weren't expecting.
It's been said before, if he hadn't juggled he have been creamed. The juggling caused the defense to have to readjust in split seconds.
There's so many instances of it in the game you can almost tell as soon as it happens that the "juggling" team will benefit in some way.
BTW, I say that "it wasn't the craip officiating that enabled them to score". It was however the craip officiating that allowed them the position to score.
We would have been very lucky for Saints to have been pulled back for it.
Danny care is really beginning to get on my @#$%& - If he isn't carefull I will burn the lot of them - Delon included
The reason "Sir" didn't spot it ... he wasn't looking.
I'd really like to know why?
He'd clearly signalled that the forwards "popped up" but that was after extreme pressure by our lads on theirs.
The only reason he'd have to single out our lads for a talking to at the reset is if he thought we'd done something illegal. The only thing I could see illegal was their #3 "boring in". It was becuase he'd done so that caused the scrum to go in the direction it did under our pressure.
By doing so, he'd given a psychological disadvantage to us by making up think that he's keeping and "extra eye" on us.
No real arguement from me though - Saints tried the move and got away with it.
Agree that the ref wasn't looking (in that direction) but the bigger worry was that the prop squeezed between two of our best tacklers, Steff and David, Took them by surprise too!
In the preliminaries to the last try, I thought the major bone of contention was whether the ball had stopped moving before Foden placed his foot behind the dead ball line.
Was there any conclusive evidence one way or another?
Coops
WTF
It's only Us v Saints, if it was Pests, Tigs, Queens or Barf playing for 11th place then there would be full coverage.
We're only Not Nots
Not on TV and Not in any highlights.
Coops
WTF
I disagree, I felt Tiny moved his left foot to the left (i.e. paralell to the touchline) rather than forward.
That said however, if we accept your view and his left foot was in front of the 5m line but not touching the ground and his only contact with the field of play being his right foot (which as you say was the "correct" side of said line) would he not be considered to be complpetely in the field of play in the same way as a player standing in-touch reaching into the field of play is considered to be wholly in touch?
As for the Foden incident (and I doubt anyone on this board will take my word for it) I sit in line with the 5m line in that particular corner and it was Ben's contact with the ball that stopped it from movinng. It still had enough momentum to carry it physically over the dead ball line but the pressure from a very good chase forced him to intervene.
Quote:having one foot on the ground over 5m from the throw makes no difference, by leaning forwards to take the ball early you prevent it travelling 5m. It is the reverse of the situation where the player puts a foot in touch (or over the dead ball line) to render the ball out of play.law 19.6
The ball must be thrown straight, so that it travels at least 5 metres along the line of touch before it first touches the ground or touches or is touched by a player.
The real issue is home advantage. The pressure not to incur the wrath of the 14,000 assistant referees in the stand must be huge. Far easier to blow for not 5 when the visitors are the transgressors
If the ref had been looking the correct way it may have been called back but I'd give the points to Saints for inventiveness.
Anyway as you say has gone now on to worcester (maybe!)
One suspects the Ref wasn't expecting that either (probably a last minute call by Tiny to Dyl who spotted the oppportunity) and was already looking up/preparing for the catch as that was a very hotly contested area.