Where to from here..........???


By Finno
December 9 2015

Following the recent LDH against Wasps, there were further positive signs of improvement, as we remained in the game for 70 minutes, but eventually the sheer pressure on our defence eventually told. Although we had to defend (and defended well) for most of the match, there were some positive signs in attack also, with young Williams belying his tender years.

...and so on to Quins at The Stoop last weekend. Despite a number of changes, the recent improvements as detailed above, seem to suggest that we would be, at the very least be competitive against a strong Quins side (many of whom were looking to impress the new England manager who was in attendance).

Although it was blustery and windy, it was dry and mild, so all looked set fair for an exciting match.

Slight diversion here (pardon the pun). I left home in Sussex in plenty of time but a 'bunged up' A316 meant that I only got to the Rosebine carpark at 14:40. What a nightmare to get parked both before and to get away after the game. I know we all moan about the MadStad from time to time, but it's streets (sorry again!) ahead of the chaos at The Stoop last Saturday ! 

Irish kicked off in the first half with the wind at their backs, attacking the North Stand where I was sat....'Should see some action' I thought. How wrong could I have been, apart from one foray into Quins 22, Irish spent the rest of the half defending in their own half, and actually did well to restrict Quins to a 10-0 lead at half time. The only use we made of the wind, was to be able to kick a little further to touch from deep defensive positions....we never managed to use the wind as an attacking tool for the whole half.

I checked on this Forum at half-time to see what others thought....it wasn't looking good was the general consensus....I had deep fears, that once Quins had the wind at their backs, it could get ugly. Unfortunately it did, big time, we saw lots of action at the North end, as Irish were on the back foot for the whole of the second half, and the floodgates began to open.  A couple of tries, were uncomfortable to watch, with many missed tackles. It almost looked like men against boys and in the end we were lucky to get away with a final score of 38 - 7 to Quins.

I left the ground in a daze....what had I just witnessed ? I've been to all the games this season (save Grenoble), and although we have been well beaten , there were some positive signs...even Exeter away (when I did the report...boy do I know how to pick 'em!).

A comment , in the Guardian summed it up in my view... 'Irish barely fired a shot all afternoon. It was credible that they held Quins tryless till just past the half-hour, but that is as much as can be said'

So.......where to from here ?? It was a huge step backwards from the all our recent performances....

  1. Was it just a 'bad day at the office' ?
  2. Was it the quality of the opposition ?? They were good, but we didn't even compete.
  3. Was it our tough start to the season, playing all these top sides ? It was a pretty tough start last season, but we weren't pointless at this stage
  4. Was it the number of changes made to the side, unsettled and not yet comfortable with each other ?
  5. Was it the new style that's bedding in, identified and exploited by Quins ? Maybe some truth in that...
  6. Was it the lack of a 'Top quality 10' ?? More on that below..
  7. Was it that we are simply not good enough, and Quins cruelly exposed that ? Every side has strengthened this year...maybe our strengthening hasn't even kept pace with everyone else , never mind improving us !
  8. Is the new style, ever going to be effective in the AP ? Personally, I doubt it, in its pure Super 15 form....needs to tailored.


I suspect the answer is a mixture of of some of the above and other reasons that I'm not qualified to spot.....either way, we are rapidly getting to a point where, where relegation looms large (if we're not already there). Significant points will be required to stay up this season, as I believe that most of the lower teams (from 6 downwards) will take points of each other and thinking that beating  Falcons or Worcester will be enough, is simply fantasy !

'We need a Top Quality 10'.....I think Noakes has done well under the circumstances and the problem is that you don't know how good or average he is, until you see him operate behind a dominant pack with lots of go forward....and we haven't had that for a long time and certainly not since he arrived. You only have to look at how George Ford struggled last week against Saints dominant pack. He's not a Carter, but those that think a 'Top Quality 10' will solve our problems, are misguided unless we sort the pack out (which is going in the right direction). Place kicking, is a different story....but that doesn't have to be a 10's job!

....and finally, there has been much comment both on this forum and on social media (Twitter in particular), that anything other that 100% blind positive optimism for our Club, is seen as betraying or being  'fair weather' etc and is bad for the moral of the players. Utter tosh !

Passion takes many forms, and some (me included) will criticise if we see things as being poor or needing improvement. That doesn't mean that we are any less passionate about our beloved club than the 'happy clappy brigade' . If you weren't a committed supporter, you'd be gone seasons ago! I honestly believe that the players and coaches...if they read this forum orother social media,  would prefer an honest view on their performances rather than some of this inane positive stuff.

I would....wouldn't you ??

Where to from here..........???
Posted by: The Craic www.londonirish.org (IP Logged)
Date: 09/12/2015 13:22

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Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: olw131 (IP Logged)
Date: 09/12/2015 16:35

Excellent report Finno. You're 100% right about the 'no criticising the team' nonsense, some of our fans on twitter are far too positive...!

I'm all for supporting the team and I want us to do well as much as the next person, and I am fully supportive of Tom Coventry and the team. When we have witnessed such an utter shoiteshow, though, I think I have the right to show my frustration.

What we saw against Quins was not London Irish standard. A performance like that makes us the laughing stock of the Premiership. When you see your team capitulate like we have seen against Bath and Quins (and Wasps for 10 mins) you can't possibly be praising our players for the shift they put in (as good as our defence has been in some games).

Let's hope that this was just [yet another] bad day at the office and the boys get their game together for the Edinburgh games, COYI

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Jon_r43 (IP Logged)
Date: 09/12/2015 18:58

Did Tom Coventry read your piece before his piece to camara this week stating that he wants us to stick with them and be positive to the team on social media!

I too can be critical (remember me on Smithy) and we are all entitled to our view and to state that, but we need to be realistic about the options and for example Dan Carter is not coming to be our 10 (although he was at Sunbury 6 weeks ago!!)

Chat to any of the players and you can tell the camp hurting and trying to work out the way forward but it is no surprise that we are near the bottom, most of us looked at the fixture and said it wouldn't be a suprise to be on 0 by Christmas and that's come true

So either end of the spectrum we need to remain behind the team when we can, Keeping the moral going in the camp was likely to be tough with the fixtures but at least we have to play all the weaker sides twice, nobody else has that luxury so there is still hope!

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: BaltiBoy (IP Logged)
Date: 09/12/2015 20:46

Excellent report Finno, I think you have summed up both the performance at the weekend and our teams deficiencies perfectly.

I particularly agree with your assessment of Noakes. Certainly he's not the best, but as you say Dan Carter would struggle behind forwards unable to assert dominance. Perhaps a bit more selection consistency (injuries permitting) amongst our pack would give our 10 more of a chance to get us going forwards.

We really do need that 80% kicker as well, but getting one , as we all know is much easier said than done.

Really hope TC can work out the magic formula soon, we could all do with a bit of Christmas cheer!

Cheers & Beers
BB

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Props are not stupid (IP Logged)
Date: 10/12/2015 10:42

Finno,

You have gone to all home and away games, you have spent quite a lot of time and money supporting the team and are entitled to express your concerns publicly. The problem is the odd casual supporter coming in here or other social media sites bleating their opinion.

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Bill the chip (IP Logged)
Date: 10/12/2015 20:09

Here's the thing on criticism .. Other than venting your own frustration on these pages, who or what help has it achieved??
We all know we in a very tough fight this year, that could go to the wire,with very small margins splitting 3\4 teams. Now what if those margins are us supporters??? What if its the difference the Gloucester "shed" make over the Irish drummers!!!!
Now with the huge changes the club has made this season things were almost certainly going to be shaky at best.when this happens ,the management, team and US fans HAVE to tighten up together!! No one in this league,or sky sports or BT or the rugby papers etc gives a monkeys about us... Fact.
Cliché or not,it maybe your unwavering support that helps us cling on,and onto brighter things.... It's the same as supporting your own son\ daughter and watching them get hammered each week... You still go the following week ..hoping for the day your kid gets the winner!!!!
It's the easiest thing in the world to follow a Bath or a Saracens



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:12:10:20:17:54 by Bill the chip.

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Bill the chip (IP Logged)
Date: 10/12/2015 20:14

Here's the thing on criticism.. Other than venting your own frustration on these pages, who or what help has it achieved??
We all know we in a very tough fight this year, that could go to the wire,with very small margins splitting 3\4 teams. Now what if those margins are us supporters??? What if its the difference the Gloucester "shed" make over the Irish drummers!!!!
Now with the huge changes the club has made this season things were almost certainly going to be shaky at best.when this happens ,the management, team and US fans HAVE to tighten up together!! No one in this league,or sky sports or BT or the rugby papers etc gives a monkeys about us... Fact.
Cliché or not,it maybe your unwavering support that helps us cling on,and onto brighter things.... It's the same as supporting your own son\ daughter and watching them get hammered each week... You still go the following week ..hoping for the day your kid gets the winner!!!!
It's the easiest thing in the world to follow a Bath or a Saracens

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Caimh (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 12:02

I don't think anyone has suggested 100% blind optimism is called for, and I say that as one of the people who you'd no doubt put in the happy clappy club. However, if you want to see a small example of the relentless negativity from some quarters that is winding some of us up, have a look at the responses on here and on social media to the club's announcement that a well respected guy has rejoined our community team. So many people used it as yet another opportunity to bang on about totally unrelated issues. It is a very small thing but imagine you were him or a member of his family reading that, what'd be your impression of the fanbase? I think it is an unfair reflection as the reality is, a lot of people now sadly steer clear of the craic because they feel it has become overly negative. The attitude and warmth I experience every time I met London Irish fans in person is a world away from the impression that you can get from reading a lot of stuff online.

personally, I now post on here considerably less than I have at any point in the last decade as I find the tone OTT negative. I now prefer chatting about stuff on Facebook where people use their real names and while they're still critical in their assessments, they are considerably less personal and vitriolic in nature. This is by no means related to everybody or even close to it, but I felt it was worth giving the 'happy clappy club' some context.

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Exile44 (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 12:10

Regarding criticism, I feel it's just a matter of being fair & realistic.

There's no call for personal comments and some of the stuff on here is very flippant, poorly thought through and frankly, maddeningly repetitive.

At the same time, the OTT positivity (etc., we're somehow nailed on to beat Falcons & Worcester, so nothing else seems to matter) is equally frustrating.

For me, it's a case of come on here and be honest & fair in your assessment - if that means we've been horrendous, we've been horrendous. If we've had a great game, enjoy it and give it the praise it deserves.

Regarding the fans making the difference - performance wise, I don't see that it matters. In the heat of the game inside the stadium, I'm nothing but shouting the boys on. The comments on here are about assessment & reflection, not about encouragement when it really matters.

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Finno (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 13:45

Quote:
Exile44
Regarding criticism, I feel it's just a matter of being fair & realistic.
There's no call for personal comments and some of the stuff on here is very flippant, poorly thought through and frankly, maddeningly repetitive.

At the same time, the OTT positivity (etc., we're somehow nailed on to beat Falcons & Worcester, so nothing else seems to matter) is equally frustrating.

For me, it's a case of come on here and be honest & fair in your assessment - if that means we've been horrendous, we've been horrendous. If we've had a great game, enjoy it and give it the praise it deserves.

Regarding the fans making the difference - performance wise, I don't see that it matters. In the heat of the game inside the stadium, I'm nothing but shouting the boys on. The comments on here are about assessment & reflection, not about encouragement when it really matters.

Thanks Exile44, that about sums up my sentiments exactly also..

..and Caimh..as a fan of your posts in general, I do dispair of the sanctimonious 'high horse' stuff..you post at times.

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: AlecW (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 13:52

Yeah - never met anyone as sanctimonious and on his high horse as Caimh McDonnell...!

LMFAO

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Caimh (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 14:05

But you're a massive fan of criticism right up until the point you receive some. Apologies, duly noted.
Woah their Nelly.

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Finno (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 14:53

Quote:
Caimh
But you're a massive fan of criticism right up until the point you receive some. Apologies, duly noted.
Woah their Nelly.

I don't mind criticism, but sport is in the entertainment business and lots of us pay a lot of money to support our team...I've been to every game this season and as such, I believe that entitles me, and everyone else to express an honest opinion about our performances..

What I find difficult to take, is being effectively accused of being a 'lesser' supporter because i, and others choose to post an honest assessment of what they witness( some go a little OTT.. But that's life)

However, I understand that you maybe a little 'Happy Clappy' as you are, after all a London Irish employee...be difficult no to be ;-)

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Caimh (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 15:31

Who had a go at you for posting an honest assessment?
At no point did I say reasoned criticism was unfair.
My point was about people using things like a new community coach as an opportunity to roll out the same unrelated remarks as they've already made repeatedly elsewhere. I also don't agree with some of the personal vitriol aimed at certain players that I consider to go beyond legitimate criticism of their play.

Speaking of repetition, what's with all the full stops in every sentence? They're confusing the horse. Are you talking half in morse code? :-)

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: ehfer (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 17:32

Please post more rather than less Caimh. Informed, witty and to the point. Yours and Foggy Balla's are amongst the few that lighten the (understandably at present) doom and gloom. And Ozzy3213 is, in my opinion, comfortably the best poster on LI rugby matters.

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Finno (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 18:09

Quote:
ehfer
Please post more rather than less Caimh. Informed, witty and to the point. Yours and Foggy Balla's are amongst the few that lighten the (understandably at present) doom and gloom. And Ozzy3213 is, in my opinion, comfortably the best poster on LI rugby matters.

Well, that's put the rest of us back in our box! Obviously, we are not witty, or worthy enough! (Sm141)

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Heaf (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 18:23

But we're all on the same side chaps - here's to a good game tomorrow ... -- .. .-.. .

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: frank2u (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 21:09

...in answer to your title, I'm going to madstad tomorrow, for the 1st time this season! via various railway stations on my newly acquired senior railcard, which will save me >£8 every time!! :¬)

I'm with the happy clappy crowd btw, just there to enjoy a game of rugby in a sociable gathering ...or I can sit with the edin burrowers if you'd prefer :¬D

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Exile44 (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 21:34

Quote:
frank2u
...in answer to your title, I'm going to madstad tomorrow, for the 1st time this season! via various railway stations on my newly acquired senior railcard, which will save me >£8 every time!! :¬)
I'm with the happy clappy crowd btw, just there to enjoy a game of rugby in a sociable gathering ...or I can sit with the edin burrowers if you'd prefer :¬D

Seating arrangements depend on how much of that saved £8 you'll be cashing in for drinks. If the answers 'all of it', you're very much welcome next to myself...

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: frank2u (IP Logged)
Date: 11/12/2015 22:22

my expenses for the day will certainly amount to the cost of the 3 year railcard 44er!

i'm unreserved so may sit in many seats, i'm sure we will rub shoulders

...the smileys have deserted my screen, so cheers :¬)

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: waltham (IP Logged)
Date: 12/12/2015 19:52

...onwards and upwards from here...top squad each and every match...

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: frank2u (IP Logged)
Date: 12/12/2015 22:50

craicing day out!

just back & have to say the burrowers were a crowd I like to be amongst!!

...sorely tempted to fly up next week, & everyweek come to that; cummonn li, jump up for joys sakes! :¬)

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Finno (IP Logged)
Date: 13/12/2015 14:41

Quote:
Caimh

personally, I now post on here considerably less than I have at any point in the last decade as I find the tone OTT negative.

Hey Caimh, for someone who really doesn't use The Craic anymore, you've certainly been VERY active this weekend!! Happy Clappy Mania ?? ;-)

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Caimh (IP Logged)
Date: 13/12/2015 14:48

Quote:
Finno
Quote:
Caimh

personally, I now post on here considerably less than I have at any point in the last decade as I find the tone OTT negative.

Hey Caimh, for someone who really doesn't use The Craic anymore, you've certainly been VERY active this weekend!! Happy Clappy Mania ?? ;-)

I got the train instead of drove.

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: frank2u (IP Logged)
Date: 13/12/2015 16:22

lest anyone was lost by this thread & wondering where ppl are going when they come on this site?

"The Craic (Pronounced ‘crack’) – An Irish word with no direct translation in English. Means partying, enjoying the company of others, having a good time and a fair amount more. This is a particular speciality of London Irish and it’s supporters."

...the 'fair amount more' is presumably an open playground for anything else anyone may wish to bring to our attention?
lost on me I'm afraid :¬D

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Finno (IP Logged)
Date: 13/12/2015 18:51

Quote:
frank2u
lest anyone was lost by this thread & wondering where ppl are going when they come on this site?
"The Craic (Pronounced ‘crack’) – An Irish word with no direct translation in English. Means partying, enjoying the company of others, having a good time and a fair amount more. This is a particular speciality of London Irish and it’s supporters."

...the 'fair amount more' is presumably an open playground for anything else anyone may wish to bring to our attention?
lost on me I'm afraid :¬D

Yep..Caimh and I have just been having a bit of good natured Craic with each other..or at least I was! (Sm151)

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Heaf (IP Logged)
Date: 13/12/2015 23:34

I'm just upset that nobody spotted what I thought was my really clever post referencing Caimh's bit about morse code smiling smiley

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Finno (IP Logged)
Date: 14/12/2015 20:35

Sorry Heaf, don't do Morse...just fullstop diarrhea,...

But I've just Googled it ! smiling smiley

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Heaf (IP Logged)
Date: 15/12/2015 00:47

smiling smiley

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: TAFKA hH (IP Logged)
Date: 15/12/2015 09:51

Big mistake Heaf.... crediting the denizens of this place with that sort of wit.

There's only about half a dozen who realise that irony isn't something you do to your clothesy

Re: Where to from here..........???
Posted by: Heaf (IP Logged)
Date: 15/12/2015 14:08

(Sm100)

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