Bath Game Cancelled

What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.

Thanks for getting the site up, at the moment we seem to have not been given any points for the non-game and the unwarranted 2 points that Bath will get have not been awarded yet, is there normally a delay in this process.

As I say in the "article" the panel hasn't been called yet. Once it is they get to pick the outcome. Given the shoeing we often get from officials I'd be unsurprised if they called it a draw or even a Bath win. Last season's panels were called fairly quickly I can only assume the New Year hangover is holding this one up.

I like your ide of playing the final fixture at the BCS.

That would provide some form of recompense for the loss of revenue and the loss of a home fixture for all the fans.

Full disclosure the idea actually came from one of my friends on FaceBook (and former poster here - hi Ken).

Thanks for posting and opening the site back again.

I agree at this stage, i think the loss of the Christmas fixture is far more important that the potential loss of a bonus point. I knew a number of parties that were really looking forward to the game and the festivities around the game.

If we had the option of playing it on the 21st May, with potential European qualification on the line and it being played in the May sun that would the option that I would choose.

Reading the bath supporters forum, some are pushing to use this season now as an extended preseason so i wouldn't be surprised if they would also be keen for the game to be played as well.

There would be an uproar if the panel awarded anything but 4 points to Irish and 2 to Bath. Last season we had to concede to Bath and Saints and points allocated were 4 and 2. This season Sale conceded to Falcons and the panel gave 4 to Falcons, 2 to Sale.

Exeter have been awarded a 28-0 victory over Bath in Premiership Cup for the cancelled fixture on 29 December.

Our game cancelled 5 days later for same reason.

Nothing less than 28-0 and 5 league points is acceptable

Just read other threads - 4 league points for us, 2 for them. That's a victory in their terms

Quote:

Clontarf
Exeter have been awarded a 28-0 victory over Bath in Premiership Cup for the cancelled fixture on 29 December.
Our game cancelled 5 days later for same reason.

Nothing less than 28-0 and 5 league points is acceptable

Brendan, those decisions are only for European Champs and Premiership Cup.

If they give us the deserved 4 or 5 points it puts us into 6th and into heiniken cup

Quote:

tatthecraicnew
If they give us the deserved 4 or 5 points it puts us into 6th and into heiniken cup

We won't get 5 points and there's a few more games to win to qualify for the HC. But I'm a glass half full man in respect of the latter.

At the moment the game is showing. As P-P not C-C, but the revenue loss to the club is the hardest part,and possible floating supporters coming back.

MWM

LONDON IRISH - and loving it......

LET'S GO IRISH....LET'S GO IRISH
...........

Quote:

mulledwinemarie
At the moment the game is showing. As P-P not C-C, but the revenue loss to the club is the hardest part,and possible floating supporters coming back.

BBC Sport fixtures show C-C Marie. Not one Premiership match last season and this season were postponed, hence the award of 2 points to the club conceding. By the way, hope you're keeping well, long time no see.

My fault for looking at Premiership site.
Mackem,i am fine thanks,stuck in italy due covid and brexit,but i hope to escape soon and come to BCS.😷😷😷

Hope you and famiky ok.😷😷😷

MWM

LONDON IRISH - and loving it......

LET'S GO IRISH....LET'S GO IRISH
...........

Quote:

mulledwinemarie
My fault for looking at Premiership site.
Mackem,i am fine thanks,stuck in italy due covid and brexit,but i hope to escape soon and come to BCS.😷😷😷

Hope you and famiky ok.😷😷😷

Yep, all good. Still haven't managed a trip to BCS, long round trip by public transport but will never change allegiance.

Does anyone know why the points for the Bath game have yet to be awarded? I would of though that the process of awarding points is well known by now and shouldn't take this long to complete.

GP - completely agree with frustration on delay. Precedent well established but speed of action not so.

Funny how Premiership Rugby decided the points allocation for the Boxing Day cancelled game between Sale and Newcastle Falcons the following day.

[www.bbc.co.uk]

They're still working out how to award it to Bath!

There is absolutely no logic in Bath getting more points for a game they haven't played then any other game they have this season.

The position may be more nuanced if it is based on the scenario below. COVID only is 0-0 4-2 split but Covid/front row seems to be 28-0 5-0 split.

Premiership Rugby can confirm that Exter Chiefs have been awarded a 28-0 win over Bath Rugby following the cancellation of their Premiership Rugby Cup Round Three match, which was scheduled for Wednesday 29 December.

The match was cancelled as Bath Rugby had insufficient front row forwards to start the match. This situation was caused by a combination of Covid-19 related player absences and existing injuries within the Bath Rugby squad, rather than simply by players testing positive for Covid-19.

A Premiership Rugby spokesperson said: "As the tournament organiser, Premiership Rugby has to rule on all match cancellations. We must determine if the match cancellation is as a result of Covid-19 or due to other factors.

“This match was cancelled due to the combination of positive cases, injuries and unavailabilities leaving Bath Rugby unable to fulfil its fixture obligations under the Premiership Rugby Cup regulations because the club had insufficient front-row forwards. Therefore the match is awarded to Exeter Chiefs 28-0, with the Chiefs receiving five match points."

James, I think you will find that those decisions only apply to Premiership Cup and European Champs.

Bill - this is what I have been able to find

"Games cancelled due to COVID-19 will be recorded as 0–0 but a win and 4 points will be awarded if a club was able to field a team and a loss and 2 points if they were not."

key words are "due to COVID-19" - given the previous adjudication it may be a combination of injuries and COVID-19, notwithstanding the signing of a Russian prop.

Hopefully things will become clearer in the next few days.

Quote:

JamesC
Bill - this is what I have been able to find
"Games cancelled due to COVID-19 will be recorded as 0–0 but a win and 4 points will be awarded if a club was able to field a team and a loss and 2 points if they were not."

key words are "due to COVID-19" - given the previous adjudication it may be a combination of injuries and COVID-19, notwithstanding the signing of a Russian prop.

Hopefully things will become clearer in the next few days.

Looking at the News item on the offy James, it said that Bath had declared further positive cases. Guess we'll have to wait. Is the Panel comprised of 57 old whatsits?

Perhaps the Panel can't field a quorum due to having Covid in their own camp.

Vg - not impossible.

This is worth a read I think - for 20/21 season but also applies I think to 21/22

[d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:01:07:16:10:17 by JamesC.

BATH ARE AT IT AGAIN!!! From today's Irish Independent:-

This week, Keith Wood stopped just short of calling for the removal of van Graan altogether. The former Ireland skipper is not known for making brash statements in public, but he was so frustrated by what he saw in Galway last weekend that it sounds like he’s had enough.
Stories that van Graan’s new club Bath are trying to sign two of Munster’s Springboks, RG Snyman and Jason Jenkins, won’t help the mood around Thomond Park where they host Ulster tomorrow night.

Sorry it now pathetic that they haven’t allocated last weeks point when the next round is just about to start.

Hopefully James has hit the nail on the head and they are looking to award a 20 nil win to Irish with 5 points based on them not being able to field 6 front row players for reasons not just due to Covid ...

Dum spiro, spero

Bath's forum has a thread on their match vs Worcester, which is discussing the possibility they have announced a player for this weekend's game who is banned until Monday according to their own website. Sounds like things are all over the shop down there.

Heard rumours that it'll be a 5-0 win to us, and Bath appealing it has delayed everything.

Thanks, EC. Fingers, toes and thumbs crossed.

I was always taught to look out for the presence of the abnormal and absence of the normal. Definitely looks like a case of the latter at the moment.

Bath are appalling it?
Sorry, I meant to write, “Bath are appealing it?”

🤭

Points have historically been awarded on statistics of the seasons results so it should be a no brained
1. Stats say we should win 4 pts
2. Stats say we are odds on to get 4 tries or more 1 pt
3. Stats say bath get 1/3 point per game 0 pt
But if they are appealing give them 1 or even 2 it is not going to make a difference to their position at the end of the season.
5-2 now that wasn’t hard was it?

Surely points have just been straight 4-2 awards in the premIership (not in prem cup). No one has been making calls on who would have won etc.

I would have expected a 4-2 award to us and can't see any chance of 5-0. With the delay I wonder if Bath have appealed the 4-2 as a result of a few cases in our camp. Who knows though.

MW take a look at the regs James dug up ... 4-2 for Covid but 5-0 for any other reason eg not having 6 front row forwards available due to injury etc - so maybe as James says it's been decided the cancellation wasn't just due to Covid?

Yeah, saw that. Just seems fairly unlikely. Would just take one front rower out for COVID for it to not work.

Given that 9 out of 13 teams had COVID in camp pre Xmas iirc, it wouldn't be a surprise if the sticking point was that in some way. I.e them saying there's COVID in both camps. Hopefully wrong on that though.

Or maybe the guys at Prem rugby are just slow to come back after Christmas and make the call.

It's definitely gone on longer than you'd expect though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:01:08:10:39:10 by Margin_Walker.

I didn't read the regs that carefully - is there an order of preference eg Covid withdrawals trump injury related withdrawals?

I also wouldn't be surprised if they somehow ended up stitching LI up compared to every other decision that's gone before though. If it's Bath disputing it they should just STFU - it's not like whatever points they get is going to make a difference to their season and they've screwed us enough in the past.

Quote:

Heaf
I didn't read the regs that carefully - is there an order of preference eg Covid withdrawals trump injury related withdrawals?

I didn't read them that closely either, but I would assume if COVID is partially the cause, then it's a Covid cancellation.

May be wrong on that though.

There should be a simple flowchart to go with the regs I think. Also each case needs to be judged individually. I suspect that there may be some desire on Bath’s part to replicate the 4-2 adjudication in their favour from the match on 26 December 2020 when we had to cancel for Covid only reason - based on the November 2020 revision to the regs which are still in place. Decision made on 28 Dec 2020.

MW - the ruling on the Prem Cup match for Exeter v Bath suggests a combination of reasons is also possible.

[www.london-irish.com]

Details of Dec 2020 decision, based on existing Nov 2020 regs

Either way it's the usual lack of transparency from 'those in charge' that's causing an issue - why they can't issue some sort of statement saying why there's a delay I don't know, even if a decision is being appealed.

Details of the Newcastle v Sale ruling can be found here - two person panel with decision made on 26 December.

[d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net]

Heaf - to be fair to Premiership Rugby when the decision is made the full text is recorded and available as per Newcastle v Sale ruling. The Bath v Exeter detailed write up is not yet available in this form - only as a press release at 4.30pm on Mon 3 December which was a bank holiday. Formal version will no doubt be posted in due course.

It will certainly be very interesting to read the text of the ruling for our match on the same day.

Also interesting to see how the Worcester v Bath match goes tomorrow afternoon with one player named in the Bath starting XV, Will Muir, whose appeal was rejected on 23 Dec and apparently only free to play from Mon 10 Jan.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:01:08:11:32:13 by JamesC.

Skimming the regs again it says the Covid rules apply if the inability to field 6 front rowers is a direct result of Covid. Maybe the panel decided they wouldn't have had 6 available due to injury etc even without Covid? Seems a long shot but I don't know enough about their squad and injuries etc to know if that's a possibility ...

Re Will Muir there seems to be some discrepancy in the dates - the ban was 4 weeks (28 days) but the 10th Jan date given would be 30 days. So if 28 days is correct I believe that would be up today from the date of the offence so he would be fine to play tomorrow?

Heaf - I think you are on the money with this. Similar position to Exeter match outcome would/could then arise. Am sure that bringing in a rush Russian prop will come under scrutiny - may not make that much difference in practice.

Head - the 10 Jan date comes from the Bath website itself so left hand/right hand situation clearly going on here. Details on this link [www.bathrugby.com]

Quote:

fatlad76
Points have historically been awarded on statistics of the seasons results so it should be a no brained
1. Stats say we should win 4 pts
2. Stats say we are odds on to get 4 tries or more 1 pt
3. Stats say bath get 1/3 point per game 0 pt
But if they are appealing give them 1 or even 2 it is not going to make a difference to their position at the end of the season.
5-2 now that wasn’t hard was it?

Stats say we're as likely to draw as we are to win
Stats say we're as likely to concede 4 tries as we are to score 4
So I make that 3 points a piece

James - to be fair to Bath (can't believe I'm typing that) the 10th Jan date is reported everywhere - even on the EPCR site - but it doesn't add up to 28 days so maybe they got a clarification that clears him to play - I can't believe they would have made such a schoolboy error to play him otherwise.

Heaf - agreed. Bath are a bit of a shower at the moment though …

Indeed - not sure what would happen if it turned out they were wrong - just a fine or match points deduction?

Quote:

Florida

Quote:

fatlad76
Points have historically been awarded on statistics of the seasons results so it should be a no brained
1. Stats say we should win 4 pts
2. Stats say we are odds on to get 4 tries or more 1 pt
3. Stats say bath get 1/3 point per game 0 pt
But if they are appealing give them 1 or even 2 it is not going to make a difference to their position at the end of the season.
5-2 now that wasn’t hard was it?

Stats say we're as likely to draw as we are to win
Stats say we're as likely to concede 4 tries as we are to score 4
So I make that 3 points a piece

Touché…. You have found the reason for the delay they don’t want to give us the points

Points aren't awarded on stats though - only on who is responsible for the cancellation. The debate I believe could be over whether the cancellation was due to Covid or Bath not having enough front rowers available ... but I agree I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to find a way of stitching us up



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:01:08:12:08:11 by Heaf.

Quote:

Heaf
Points aren't awarded on stats though - only on who is responsible for the cancellation. The debate I believe could be over whether the cancellation was due to Covid or Bath not having enough front rowers available ... but I agree I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to find a way of stitching us up

If that's the case it would imply that the original decision was to award 5-0 as why would bath appeal otherwise?

Indeed that's the way I think it looks - unless Bath are trying to claim LI had Covid too so wouldn't have been able to play either. Or it's something else entirely that we haven't thought of ...

Just looked at the BBC article on Worcester v Bath preview and I spotted this para:

“ Recent signing prop Valery Morozov is not yet ready for selection for Bath as they hope for a morale-boosting win after a miserable start to the league which has seen them lose all 10 Premiership games so far.”

Morozov was announced as emergency back up on 29 Dec. BBC article then stated:

“The 27-year-old joins from CSKA Moscow and comes in as cover for England prop Beno Obano who is out for the rest of the season with a knee injury.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:01:08:14:31:45 by JamesC.

I don’t think the potential 2 points are going to make a material difference to Bath’s season even if it would be a 50% uplift on their current points tally.

Now awarded 4-2 with W for LI. Panel result published at 1700 today.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:01:09:17:08:27 by JamesC.

This is an absolute disgrace, they waited until Bath at home just beat 14 man Worcester a team they have beaten at home more than any other team in premiership history

PREMIERSHIP RUGBY can confirm that London Irish have been awarded four match points and Bath Rugby two following the cancellation of their Gallagher Premiership Rugby Round 12 game. The match score shall be recorded as 0–0 and London Irish awarded one more win in the league table.

The decision has been made by a Premiership Rugby Panel comprising Premiership Rugby chair Martyn Phillips and Rugby Director Phil Winstanley.

The match was cancelled after Bath Rugby were unable to field a team for the match which was due to be played on Monday 3 January, due to the lack of front row forwards caused by positive Covid-19 tests.

Premiership Regulations state that: "In the event that the Premiership Rugby Panel decide that a Referred Match in the League Season is cancelled, or any governmental authority recommends or requires that a Match in the Premiership League Season is cancelled (in either case, a " Cancelled League Season Match "), then (without prejudice to any action which may be taken under or relating to any Covid Minimum Operating Standards):

• the result of that Cancelled League Season Match shall be deemed to be 0-0; and

• four league points shall be allocated to the club who was able to play the Cancelled League Season Match and two league points shall be allocated to the other club."

A Premiership Rugby spokesperson said: "On Saturday 1st January 2022, Bath Rugby contacted Premiership Rugby with an update in respect of player availability ahead of its Round 12 Gallagher Premiership match against London Irish. This update included further positive Covid-19 tests from results received on 30 December 2021, bringing the total of COVID absences at the club to 18.

"The Panel was satisfied that Bath Rugby did all they could to fulfil the fixture, trying to find a replacement hooker, which was key to the match being cancelled. This search involved speaking with clubs from the Welsh regions, the RFU Championship and a number of the major rugby player agencies. Due to the club’s inability to have two hookers available, the Round 12 Gallagher Premiership Rugby match between London Irish and Bath Rugby was cancelled.

"The health and safety of our players is always a priority for Premiership Rugby. Premiership Regulation 3.4(b) requires a Club to have at least two players in each hooker, tight head prop and loose head prop who are suitably trained and experienced (totalling six front row players). The Regulation does not allow the match to be played in the event that a Club is unable to field those six players. The Panel is satisfied that Bath Rugby’s inability to fulfil its fixture obligations was as a direct result of Covid-19."

The question has to be asked as to how this differs from the previous ruling on the Exeter v Bath match on 26 December.

Quote:

JamesC
The question has to be asked as to how this differs from the previous ruling on the Exeter v Bath match on 26 December.

That was a cup game?

Quote:

JamesC
The question has to be asked as to how this differs from the previous ruling on the Exeter v Bath match on 26 December.

The previous ruling for a different competition? Why does a question need to be asked about that? You should perhaps compare it to the other cancelled game from the same Gallagher Premiership which was also recorded as 0-0

The best answer, for my understanding anyway, has been given by FatLad76 on the other thread. It is not whether it is a Cup or Prem match but whether it was Covid affect only or a combination of availability of 6 players for the front row.

The reason I gave my summary was because ifit was as simple as different competitions we would have had the points allocated a week ago.

Quote:

fatlad76
The reason I gave my summary was because ifit was as simple as different competitions we would have had the points allocated a week ago.

Unless it's the 4-2 split if it's covid related and 5-0 if it's injury related?

The press release on the Premiership site goes into detail about the lengths Bath had gone to find cover at hooker. That is backed up by how much of a point they made about their hooker today making his first start.

Given that, I'd guess that it may have been looking like a 5-0 result in our favour but time was given the Bath to show what they had done to find injury cover in order to fulfil the fixture. As it sounds like they'd tried lots of options for loans etc, they were considered to have extenuating circumstances so it was determined as 4-2. That's entirely supposition though.

Quote:

Lazyboy346
The press release on the Premiership site goes into detail about the lengths Bath had gone to find cover at hooker. That is backed up by how much of a point they made about their hooker today making his first start.
Given that, I'd guess that it may have been looking like a 5-0 result in our favour but time was given the Bath to show what they had done to find injury cover in order to fulfil the fixture. As it sounds like they'd tried lots of options for loans etc, they were considered to have extenuating circumstances so it was determined as 4-2. That's entirely supposition though.

The question is mute on the effort and should only take into account what the circumstances were on the day of our game. So if the powers that be had to wait for a week to judge the effort then is that not collusion?

Hypothetically speaking, you could cancell all your away matches with unfortunate covid outbreaks, save a fortune in travel arrangements away, have increased home revenue figures for home matches, this would weaken teams with them having less revenue and never be relegated this season. If you got two home wins and a couple of bonus points you would have 22 points after 12 games. I must stress this is very Hypothetical and of course a ridiculous assumption that no team would do but I'm just pointing out the lack of thought that has gone into setting out cancellation rules that have no bearing on probable outcomes of matches before a game is played.

Quote:

LI Bohemian
Hypothetically speaking, you could cancell all your away matches with unfortunate covid outbreaks, save a fortune in travel arrangements away, have increased home revenue figures for home matches, this would weaken teams with them having less revenue and never be relegated this season. If you got two home wins and a couple of bonus points you would have 22 points after 12 games. I must stress this is very Hypothetical and of course a ridiculous assumption that no team would do but I'm just pointing out the lack of thought that has gone into setting out cancellation rules that have no bearing on probable outcomes of matches before a game is played.

Of course no team would do it, they'd have to fake an awful lot of tests for your suggestion to happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:01:10:09:41:45 by Florida.

Quote:

fatlad76

Quote:

Lazyboy346
The press release on the Premiership site goes into detail about the lengths Bath had gone to find cover at hooker. That is backed up by how much of a point they made about their hooker today making his first start.
Given that, I'd guess that it may have been looking like a 5-0 result in our favour but time was given the Bath to show what they had done to find injury cover in order to fulfil the fixture. As it sounds like they'd tried lots of options for loans etc, they were considered to have extenuating circumstances so it was determined as 4-2. That's entirely supposition though.

The question is mute on the effort and should only take into account what the circumstances were on the day of our game. So if the powers that be had to wait for a week to judge the effort then is that not collusion?

The circumstances on the day would be that they'd tried to find a hooker through all their various contacts in order to play the game but couldn't. We're onto our second cover hooker and Tigers signed Dolly for cover so it sounds like they are increasingly needing cover so options are thin on the ground.

If they gave the panel various bits of paperwork to back that up and asked them to consider it, it would take some time to read though it all and do some checks. That isn't collusion - have you never had to deal with providing paperwork to officialdom and waiting ages for it to be looked at?

Yes it took a frustrating amount of time but surely due process is the key, even if it takes longer than we'd like? If the same happens to us later in the season, I'd hope that we get fair consideration.

Is it fair to get 6 points in one game?, I noticed that Liverpool FC managed to cancel their away tie with Arsenal in a cup match due to covid and when the dust settled they actually only had one positive case.