News: The Rumsfeld Defence
By Robby Richmond
January 21 2013
So, it has been 4 years since I've written for COYSDC and the last time I did so it was a rather incendiary match preview that upset half of Wycombe… Ok, two thirds of Wycombe… All right, all right pretty much all of Wycombe. Ironically, a year later I was proven to be 100% correct. Strangely enough, it was one of our pals from the Saracens board who encouraged me to write an article again after he discovered some of my previous epistles. So, as usual if you do not like what you are about to read I would urge you to blame Ben (AKA Sarries4Life), it's entirely his fault!
The Rumsfeld Defence
Okay to business.
The club finds itself at a crossroads, a crossroads that some supporters have found very difficult to see. You can almost say there was an elephant in the room. Performances this season have dropped off dramatically and this naturally has led to a drop-off in wins. Now, wins are the very lifeblood of the club and whilst we have been fortunate enough to sit inside the top for the premiership for the last 5 or 6years since our return from the Championship Gulag you need only look around the rest of the premiership to realise that those who stand still are very quickly in trouble. If you don't believe me you need only have to have quick examination of the London Irish squad of2009 and where they were a few years ago- At halftime in the Guinness premiership final they were dominating the Tigers and seemed to be minutes away from winning the premiership. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmD9KSxzty8
Compare and contrast the names inside the squad today and it will make for frightening reading. What is stranger is that London Irish, as most of us are quite aware, have had a consistent and well organised Academy that has produced excellent players for them over the course of the last 10 to15 years. Yet still today they find themselves staring down the barrel of a gun in a three-way arm-wrestle for survival. And if you don't think that that could happen to the Saints inside the next 3years then well, don’t say I didn’t warn you. The premiership slide into mediocrity is quick and merciless.
When I think about the club the famous quote of Donald Rumsfeld comes to mind…“There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don’t know we don’t know.”—Former United States Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld.
Yes, I still have no idea what it means either. But what I do know is that it's almost perfectly sums up the relationship between the clubs and what seems to be majority of supporters. Now it would be easy to have a dig at a lot of the Saints’ fans at the moment but quite frankly what would be the point? It is pretty much the same collection of people who were lauded by many in the press in the season that we were relegated after week after week we went to watch a side that was low on confidence, high on fear and quickly became the kings of capitulation.
Sound familiar? Ok, we are nowhere near as bad as the side that went down but after years of continued support even the most loyal supporters have to begin to question where we are going and when things are likely to improve. Again, look at Irish.
“Saints supporters would show up to the opening of an envelope." - Shaggy Greenwood 2007
I have always had the greatest admiration for people like Chris Hoddle, a stalwart of COYSDC who spends hundreds of pounds a year following the club around the country, rarely misses a game and typifies everything that Saints supporters are perceived to be. Again, here lies something of an issue. In my opinion many Saints’ supporters are being taken for granted by the club. I wonder if you could still say that about a lot of us? I wonder if sometimes, just sometimes instead of supporters the club sees customers. And I wonder if sometimes, just sometimes the supporters get well and truly fed up with it. And I wonder when someone is going to y’know…Mention it?
COYSDC has always been a place where Saints’ supporters can come and discuss all manner of things. Be it the rudimentary tactics of scrummaging or the young lads coming through the Academy or potential new signings or potential re-signing from inside the current squad. Any and all has always been on the table and quite frankly if you don't want to discuss the week that topic. It's not brain surgery!
However, slowly but surely the club has seemingly disassociated itself from the core supporters group and information has become quite difficult to come by. A straight bat is played to even the most innocuous of questions and quite frankly after 5 or6 years of it it’s becoming condescending. Now personally I stand firmly with the club in terms of the releasing of information as regards to player injury and return. Of course we all want them back soon as soon as possible but it's never got done business as to whether Fred, Dave or George is on crutches or in rehab from a knee op or suffering with a concussion. That is not really what I'm referring to. What I refer to principally is something of an indifference that is affecting both the supporters and the club itself.
Last week it was announced that we had signed Corbs from London Irish and also that we had extended the contract of Tom Mercy and Alex Waller. Finally some good news while all around us soon to have been extending deals and introducing new players left, right and centre. Meanwhile nobody seemed particularly bothered that we hadn't announced anyone and we were continually doled out a party line. For example, Steve Myler hasn’t signed a new deal and rumours abound that he might be offski to pastures new. Without wishing to start a panic lets face it, that’s a disaster. Not a peep has been mentioned by most of the fans until the New Year. Juxtapose that with the saga of Bruce Reihanas’ ‘will he wont he’ from a few years ago…Go on, go back and read some of the topics on it Perhaps we need to define just what a disaster is? Or just a mild panic attack?
Now I understand why we keep getting the party line (but that doesn’t mean I have to like it) I think most of you do to but after a while things begin to look a little different and as we have seen from the capitulation inside the Heineken cup campaign a little bit of panic can spread like a yeast infection. That’s when all manner of US football style philosophies and psychological bobbins do little or nothing to help alleviate the concern. We are at a crossroads.
So, back to Mr Rumsfeld. We don't know where we're going we don't know who we’re signing we don't know who were losing but we know we're losing some of them and we know we’re signing somebody but we don't know who. We know who is coming into the club and we know who has left the club, from a coaching standpoint but we don’t know what Kinga is going to bring to the club and we don’t know exactly what Grayse used to do. We don’t know where we stand and we don't know what the future holds exactly. There are all manner of questions about the way we are going to play next season but question number one comes back to the Heineken cup. Without we are pretty much sunk.
No money, no prestige, and no selling point to potential new signings. And whilst the new television deal with BT vision is around the corner (and seems very likely to boost revenues around the Aviva Premiership) rebuilding a squad still remains the biggest question and one that has the most known unknowns. Look, we have to understand that when clubs like Racing Metro come calling we are simply not going to be able to keep hold of our entire squad. From some perspectives you can say that it's been something of a miracle that we have been able to retain the services of Tiny for as long as we have. Most of us know that the dice are loaded and the system is currently out of control. Metro have as quad of 38 players this season and as reported budget of €20 million. Just take a moment to read that again. €20 million. That works out at a potential average wage of €526,315 or £442551 per annum across the squad. In comparison Saints, operating inside the £4.5million salary cap can offer a potential average wage of £118,421. It all makes for some rather depressing reading doesn’t it?
Now, lets not start getting into all the bits and pieces that Sarries have been allegedly up to. For me it’s neither here nor there because quite frankly we couldn’t afford to offer some of the inducements they do. As a Publicly listed company and a going concern that kind of behaviour is just a non-starter. So that leads us to the only genuine answer we have…The Academy. And there we have even more known unknowns than we’ve previously ever had before…
Like what have some of them got to do to be given a chance in the 1st team? How come we suddenly have a selection of undroppables? Say what you like about Sarries but that’s a team based around performance and every man jack of them knows if you screw up someone will have your shirt. That’d be nice to have here wouldn’t it? The only way we can is to trust the Academy.
So, think on, the known unknowns, the unknown knowns and known knowns and unknown unknowns all seem to correlate as I tweeted on Saturday afternoon to form ‘an enigma wrapped in a mug factory…’
Last question: who are the mugs? The Club or us? I’m off for a brew…
News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: ComeOnYouSaints.com (IP Logged)
Date: 21/01/2013 23:14
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:02:05:23:31:18 by Phil..
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:02:05:23:31:18 by Phil..
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Phil. (IP Logged)
Date: 21/01/2013 23:55
Thought provoking stuff, Rob
Good work, Sir!
Good work, Sir!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: saracens4life (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 00:42
Really interesting stuff Robby
For what it's worth - and I don't want to skew the course of the debate, but I can't offer a Saintly perspective - just today I was at our new stadium on a personal guided tour from a guy who was keen to share all the public info about the club and also plenty of 'confidential' stuff.
I always feel like I'm on top of what's going on at Sarries - whether through our barrage of PR, the Q&As on our board with Edward G, the time I've worked around the academy, whatever. And I can understand why the mystery element you talk about would be discomforting...
Maybe it's because we've had such a turbulent few years that our management constantly feel the need to justify their every step with a) the hardcore supporters and b) the wider rugby public.
Which may come back to your earlier point about stagnation vs. progress...
Seeing as you've got everything you need sorted off the pitch, and you're comfortable on it
The only Saints-relevant thing I could offer, and I'll admit my ignorance on the matter up front - is the lack of noise/virtual silence over the stadium upgrade, compared to the near-daily stuff we got.
For what it's worth - and I don't want to skew the course of the debate, but I can't offer a Saintly perspective - just today I was at our new stadium on a personal guided tour from a guy who was keen to share all the public info about the club and also plenty of 'confidential' stuff.
I always feel like I'm on top of what's going on at Sarries - whether through our barrage of PR, the Q&As on our board with Edward G, the time I've worked around the academy, whatever. And I can understand why the mystery element you talk about would be discomforting...
Maybe it's because we've had such a turbulent few years that our management constantly feel the need to justify their every step with a) the hardcore supporters and b) the wider rugby public.
Which may come back to your earlier point about stagnation vs. progress...
Seeing as you've got everything you need sorted off the pitch, and you're comfortable on it
The only Saints-relevant thing I could offer, and I'll admit my ignorance on the matter up front - is the lack of noise/virtual silence over the stadium upgrade, compared to the near-daily stuff we got.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: StBleach (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 05:05
Good stuff Rob, I will have to rewrite much of my preview for Saturday as it contained similar themes! ( well, what else can you write about an LV game!) ..
"I wonder if sometimes, just sometimes instead of supporters the club sees customers. And I wonder if sometimes, just sometimes the supporters get well and truly fed up with it. And I wonder when someone is going to y’know…Mention it?"
Think we have been saying that for a long time, I couldn't agree more..
"I wonder if sometimes, just sometimes instead of supporters the club sees customers. And I wonder if sometimes, just sometimes the supporters get well and truly fed up with it. And I wonder when someone is going to y’know…Mention it?"
Think we have been saying that for a long time, I couldn't agree more..
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 05:11
Another excellent article/ post which again someone from the club (Chris W?) should read, copy, print multiple copies of and ask influential people at the club to read.
I used to "gag to get out of the door" to watch Saints. This season my tickets are stuck to my notice board all lined up and ready for me to use. However, some have stayed right where they are, on the notice board, unused (Quins for goodness sake but how glad I was when I saw snippets onthe TV), £26 wasted. I just couldn't bring myself to walk out of the door, knowing the only decent or "savvy" rugby I'd see would be from our opposition, knowing what the coaches reactions would be after the game, win, lose or draw.
It was interesting to read S4Ls post above because it says a lot about Saints to me. Sarries as a club seems to care, probably why they attract players we can't. I don't think that Saints as a club cares, it seems happy to have my money rolling in but doesn't give a stuff what I really think.
Sarries and maybe other teams appear easy to follow, support, be a fan of. Saints are, for me anyway, really difficult to follow, support, be a fan of, yet I think that Saints have never needed such support more than since I've been attending (5 seasons or so). Why then is made, for me anyway, so darn difficult? I don't know.
It's easy to say "Saints til I die" but the thing is, and I admit this, leaving a ticket unused hardly epitomises that mantra. So having admitted I'm not "Saints til I die" the club need to do more, much more for me. Will they? I'm not confident at all. I don't suppose anyone who can change anything will even read this, nor care. There are bigger gaps in the crowd at FG this season. Easy to put down to the economy, TV, Friday games etc but we've had this since I've been coming yet we've consistently sold out. Gaps are occurring because tickets stay on notice boards, people don't want to come, not just because it's on the TV. Perhaps Saints will be able to survive healthily with dwindling gates because they'll have enough "Saints til I die" fans and maybe this is why, to me, they may not care, so they, to me anyway, continue to be apathetic to the views. I may be talking myself in to saving that £26 per fortnight instead of, maybe, leaving it unused on the notice board or worse still buying another clubs tickets so I may yet again "gag to get out of the door". From a posting point of view I know my views are maybe not always thought well of or thought negative but I also hope that I add to debate, but I'm getting tired of what's being served up by the Saints as a club. Clubs need to work hard to generate and nurture support. For me Saints don't. It maybe easy to say or think words to the effect of "I'm glad he's gone from the board" or "he's always negative and moans so good riddance" and that's fine if you do, no problem. However it's another person, supporter, fan who's had enough and therefore makes it yet more difficult for the club. Maybe I'd rather watch clubs who, to me, appreciate their supporters more (they are out there), just go to see good rugby games again. I won't and don't need to be "xyz til I die".
Rant over, sorry to all, rest from the Saints now I think.
I used to "gag to get out of the door" to watch Saints. This season my tickets are stuck to my notice board all lined up and ready for me to use. However, some have stayed right where they are, on the notice board, unused (Quins for goodness sake but how glad I was when I saw snippets onthe TV), £26 wasted. I just couldn't bring myself to walk out of the door, knowing the only decent or "savvy" rugby I'd see would be from our opposition, knowing what the coaches reactions would be after the game, win, lose or draw.
It was interesting to read S4Ls post above because it says a lot about Saints to me. Sarries as a club seems to care, probably why they attract players we can't. I don't think that Saints as a club cares, it seems happy to have my money rolling in but doesn't give a stuff what I really think.
Sarries and maybe other teams appear easy to follow, support, be a fan of. Saints are, for me anyway, really difficult to follow, support, be a fan of, yet I think that Saints have never needed such support more than since I've been attending (5 seasons or so). Why then is made, for me anyway, so darn difficult? I don't know.
It's easy to say "Saints til I die" but the thing is, and I admit this, leaving a ticket unused hardly epitomises that mantra. So having admitted I'm not "Saints til I die" the club need to do more, much more for me. Will they? I'm not confident at all. I don't suppose anyone who can change anything will even read this, nor care. There are bigger gaps in the crowd at FG this season. Easy to put down to the economy, TV, Friday games etc but we've had this since I've been coming yet we've consistently sold out. Gaps are occurring because tickets stay on notice boards, people don't want to come, not just because it's on the TV. Perhaps Saints will be able to survive healthily with dwindling gates because they'll have enough "Saints til I die" fans and maybe this is why, to me, they may not care, so they, to me anyway, continue to be apathetic to the views. I may be talking myself in to saving that £26 per fortnight instead of, maybe, leaving it unused on the notice board or worse still buying another clubs tickets so I may yet again "gag to get out of the door". From a posting point of view I know my views are maybe not always thought well of or thought negative but I also hope that I add to debate, but I'm getting tired of what's being served up by the Saints as a club. Clubs need to work hard to generate and nurture support. For me Saints don't. It maybe easy to say or think words to the effect of "I'm glad he's gone from the board" or "he's always negative and moans so good riddance" and that's fine if you do, no problem. However it's another person, supporter, fan who's had enough and therefore makes it yet more difficult for the club. Maybe I'd rather watch clubs who, to me, appreciate their supporters more (they are out there), just go to see good rugby games again. I won't and don't need to be "xyz til I die".
Rant over, sorry to all, rest from the Saints now I think.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: MoANjAm (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 05:18
Very interesting read Rob. Thanks for taking the time. Be Interesting to see a response from the club.
"sup·port·er"
Noun:
1.A person who approves of and encourages someone or something (typically a public figure, a movement or party, or a policy).
2.A person who is actively interested in and wishes success for a particular sports team.
"sup·port·er"
Noun:
1.A person who approves of and encourages someone or something (typically a public figure, a movement or party, or a policy).
2.A person who is actively interested in and wishes success for a particular sports team.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St.Rich Joe, Niamh and Sam's Dad (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 06:27
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Owen (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 07:57
Quote:MoANjAm
Very interesting read Rob. Thanks for taking the time. Be Interesting to see a response from the club.
Yes I agree. They may disagree with us, but it's certainly a perception that pervades many supporters currently.
You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.
Richards/Jagger
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: OldPete (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 07:58
I have not posted anything since the defeat in Glasgow -mostly because i was literally at a loss for words -although not so for a variety of emotional responses which culminated in deep depression.
Rob - you have said a lot that I would have said and most eloquently . Thanks.
For me the problem as a supporter is the supposed conflict between criticism and loyalty. Sometimes on this board it seems you cannot be loyal to the club you support and yet be discontented or critical with anything about it.
It may also be the case that the club treats us like customers or consumers because so many of us on COYSC and on the Offy present themselves as such. Whinging about wasting their hard earned to watch less than success on the field.
For me the commercial transaction with the club is the last thing on my mind after Glasgow or the rout by Ulster ,the defeats by Quins and Sarries. What does dominate my thoughts is two questions
How the hell did we get to this and How the hell do we get out of it?
I don't know the answers although I may mutter some rubbish down the pub -but sadly am also beginning to wonder whether those who should know - do know and are able to find solutions.
Oh and I shall be buying a season ticket for next season.
Rob - you have said a lot that I would have said and most eloquently . Thanks.
For me the problem as a supporter is the supposed conflict between criticism and loyalty. Sometimes on this board it seems you cannot be loyal to the club you support and yet be discontented or critical with anything about it.
It may also be the case that the club treats us like customers or consumers because so many of us on COYSC and on the Offy present themselves as such. Whinging about wasting their hard earned to watch less than success on the field.
For me the commercial transaction with the club is the last thing on my mind after Glasgow or the rout by Ulster ,the defeats by Quins and Sarries. What does dominate my thoughts is two questions
How the hell did we get to this and How the hell do we get out of it?
I don't know the answers although I may mutter some rubbish down the pub -but sadly am also beginning to wonder whether those who should know - do know and are able to find solutions.
Oh and I shall be buying a season ticket for next season.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Owen (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 08:02
Quote:OldPete
It may also be the case that the club treats us like customers or consumers because so many of us on COYSC and on the Offy present themselves as such. Whinging about wasting their hard earned to watch less than success on the field.
Or the price of beer, pasties etc.
Priorities people, priorities.
You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.
Richards/Jagger
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Saint Tub (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 08:56
Excellent Robby!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: BerniesBestFriend (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 09:13
Well said - agree with all the above not that it'll change anything. For the first time ever I'm not getting any pleasure from watching the Saints this season. Oh for Keith Barwell to be still in charge - he'd take notice.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: DaventrySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 09:34
Very well said Robby, I think you've summed up what the vast majority of us are all feeling.
I think the club as a whole has been playing a dangerous game for the last 5 or 6 years, keeping all variety of supporters at arms distance - taking our money, investing it, but not really letting us feel a 'part of it'.
That's all well and good while we're winning and everyone is smiley and happy-clappy, but when the wins dry up, the supporters begin to see the wider picture and even the most hardcore of us can begin to start asking questions.
Do we all want to be 'supporters', in every sense of the word? Yes.
Are we being allowed to be 'supporters', or are we being treated like 'fans'? I'm not so sure anymore.
I think the club as a whole has been playing a dangerous game for the last 5 or 6 years, keeping all variety of supporters at arms distance - taking our money, investing it, but not really letting us feel a 'part of it'.
That's all well and good while we're winning and everyone is smiley and happy-clappy, but when the wins dry up, the supporters begin to see the wider picture and even the most hardcore of us can begin to start asking questions.
Do we all want to be 'supporters', in every sense of the word? Yes.
Are we being allowed to be 'supporters', or are we being treated like 'fans'? I'm not so sure anymore.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Bob Stainsby (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 09:45
Thanks Robby encapsulates exactly how/what I think and feel. In another post this week I used the word disconnect to descride how I personally feel this season your article above is more eloquent.
I hate to do this but IF Saints do not secure HEC rugby for 2013/14 the slide will be dramatic and it could be 3rd time unlucky in the not too distant future. Pray not!
Top of the League 2014-2015 Season
I hate to do this but IF Saints do not secure HEC rugby for 2013/14 the slide will be dramatic and it could be 3rd time unlucky in the not too distant future. Pray not!
Top of the League 2014-2015 Season
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Marlowe (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 10:00
St Owen did you ever stop to think that the prices exhorted for incidentals such as beer and food are sympsymptomatic of the problem? Who owns the marketing and playing budgets? Is there even a concept of budgets,,?
Our salary cap cannot be used to the full or every other club is cheating. So where does fiscal responsibility lie?
Are we looking at the wrong area in the coaches and players. Is our fiscal management up to the task?
As a shareholder, I am uncomfortable in not having answers to such questions. I am sure that our CEO with be along soon to address these issues.
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Our salary cap cannot be used to the full or every other club is cheating. So where does fiscal responsibility lie?
Are we looking at the wrong area in the coaches and players. Is our fiscal management up to the task?
As a shareholder, I am uncomfortable in not having answers to such questions. I am sure that our CEO with be along soon to address these issues.
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Geoff S (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 10:10
Very interesting,and over the past few year I have felt more like a consumer and less like a supporter.
Even being a share holder does not entitle me to any snippets of information regarding the "company". Perhaps it time for me to review my investment?
Alternatively, the club could provide me with something to get excited about on match days.
Even being a share holder does not entitle me to any snippets of information regarding the "company". Perhaps it time for me to review my investment?
Alternatively, the club could provide me with something to get excited about on match days.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: ElmaFudd. (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 10:21
I agree the club has slowely distanced itself from the supporters in the last few years.
It would be interesting to hear what our CEO has to say on the subject.
It would be interesting to hear what our CEO has to say on the subject.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Owen (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 10:47
St Marlowe. How much is a beer at the ground? How much is it at a bar in town – say on Bridge Street? The costs may be symptomatic, may be, but still not a big issue for me personally in the greater scheme of things.
As an aside, I happen to know a few guys who run these and similar operations – under licence – the margins are nowhere near what you may imagine and the pressure on the guys on the ground to eke out every ha’penny of profit (by whatever means) is immense.
Apologies for now deviating from a very worthwhile thread. The other points you raise are very valid indeed.
You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.
Richards/Jagger
As an aside, I happen to know a few guys who run these and similar operations – under licence – the margins are nowhere near what you may imagine and the pressure on the guys on the ground to eke out every ha’penny of profit (by whatever means) is immense.
Apologies for now deviating from a very worthwhile thread. The other points you raise are very valid indeed.
You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.
Richards/Jagger
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Marlowe (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 11:10
I'll say nothing more except to point out the cost of a portion of fish and chips compared to a gourmet fish restaurant in the town
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Edmund Farfalla (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 11:36
Excellent article Robby and some interesting posts follow it.
I must say that all for this nostalgia for Keith Barwell did he ever post on the site about anything? The last time I spoke to him (a few years ago after an AGM)and mentioned the supporter's forum on the Offy and this site he was fairly dismissive of both. I am not sure that any comment from any member of the board, either direct or via Mr Wearmouth would be believed by many folks here. Something from JM might be different although I doubt it now, these boards and any interaction with the paying public have been ignored too long.
I have read elsewhere that Quins, Tigers and Saracens have 'happy' squads and tend to socialise together away from matchdays. Is the same true at Saints?
On a personal note, I doubt very much that we will be renewing our Season tickets next year (we have had at least one since the mid/late 1990s). We too used to look forward to going to the games and the atmosphere and banter, not so now no atmosphere and banter at the officials is now in many cases obscene abuse which is considered amusing by many and ignored by the stewards.Other more knowledgeable people have commented on the standard of rugby offered up so no need to comment on that.
There will be, no doubt others who will not renew, but probably others that will blindly renew under the impression that everything will be alright eventually and others who are covered by Will Greenwood's envelope comment.
I must say that all for this nostalgia for Keith Barwell did he ever post on the site about anything? The last time I spoke to him (a few years ago after an AGM)and mentioned the supporter's forum on the Offy and this site he was fairly dismissive of both. I am not sure that any comment from any member of the board, either direct or via Mr Wearmouth would be believed by many folks here. Something from JM might be different although I doubt it now, these boards and any interaction with the paying public have been ignored too long.
I have read elsewhere that Quins, Tigers and Saracens have 'happy' squads and tend to socialise together away from matchdays. Is the same true at Saints?
On a personal note, I doubt very much that we will be renewing our Season tickets next year (we have had at least one since the mid/late 1990s). We too used to look forward to going to the games and the atmosphere and banter, not so now no atmosphere and banter at the officials is now in many cases obscene abuse which is considered amusing by many and ignored by the stewards.Other more knowledgeable people have commented on the standard of rugby offered up so no need to comment on that.
There will be, no doubt others who will not renew, but probably others that will blindly renew under the impression that everything will be alright eventually and others who are covered by Will Greenwood's envelope comment.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Marlowe (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 11:41
This is my club
I shall be renewing
Renewing does not mean I agree with everything!
I reserve the right to be upset at the way some things are done.
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
I shall be renewing
Renewing does not mean I agree with everything!
I reserve the right to be upset at the way some things are done.
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Chris Wearmouth (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 11:44
The first thing to say from the club's perspective is that yes, we are aware of such opinions, and I've been asked by Leon to come up with some ideas as to possible things that can be done to reduce the apparent disconnect between the club and supporters.
After all, as has been pointed out by Rob, the comments coming from the playing department have not changed in the past six years that I've been working here.
- We don't comment on player speculation; a lot of the time it is gossip spread by agents to try and push a player's price tag up
- We only announce player signings once they are done and dusted
- By and large we do not comment on injuries, although Jim does answer questions about them in press sessions
- Public comments from senior management have not gone down in the past couple of years; indeed even in his last couple of years as chairman even KB was relatively quiet in comparison to previous years!
- Through things like Twitter and Facebook, as well as feedback forms on the club's main website, we are more available for direct communication than ever before, and answer questions as they come in
- With players on Twitter they are more accessible than ever before
- Our core prices for things bought directly from the club (season tickets, replica shirts etc) have stayed the same for a number of years
In my office there's a whiteboard, at the top of which I have written 'The hardest thing to change is a pre-conceived idea'.
So help me get started by telling me what pre-conceived ideas there are about Northampton Saints...
After all, as has been pointed out by Rob, the comments coming from the playing department have not changed in the past six years that I've been working here.
- We don't comment on player speculation; a lot of the time it is gossip spread by agents to try and push a player's price tag up
- We only announce player signings once they are done and dusted
- By and large we do not comment on injuries, although Jim does answer questions about them in press sessions
- Public comments from senior management have not gone down in the past couple of years; indeed even in his last couple of years as chairman even KB was relatively quiet in comparison to previous years!
- Through things like Twitter and Facebook, as well as feedback forms on the club's main website, we are more available for direct communication than ever before, and answer questions as they come in
- With players on Twitter they are more accessible than ever before
- Our core prices for things bought directly from the club (season tickets, replica shirts etc) have stayed the same for a number of years
In my office there's a whiteboard, at the top of which I have written 'The hardest thing to change is a pre-conceived idea'.
So help me get started by telling me what pre-conceived ideas there are about Northampton Saints...
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 11:47
I also feel a real disconnect with the club, some of this is a chance in my own circumstances that prevent me from turning up early/leaving late and wandering about the many bars as i did earlier in my time. Also i no longer drink in the ground as its too expensive compared to the many decent places you can go to in St James (or my house which is closer).
The change in food also discourages me from spending time in the village as i once did but i have to say the sausage&Onion rolls on the BBQ stand are pretty decent for the price.
The club dont help things though. There are less and less reasons and ways to engage with the club outside of match days. Fewer events (even if you include the expensive ones). I do feel a real change is UK stepped down, and i know Comrade Leon has a lot on his plate but it would be nice to have a very visible and vocal figure head back at the saints... Love them or hate them (more likely) Cockers, Booth, Edwards, COS etc..etc.. all these people are big personalities. It gives people something to rally round. It can be a DoR, Owner, Coach or Director but we seem to be missing a figure head.
Think i've wandered completely off my original point here.. Oh well. Never mind. I still think Saints are a great club and i can see these coaches and players wining something in the next few years if we can just get the spark back. Not sure how to get the good feeling back between the club/supporters though... The extras cost money i know and they dont realy need to bring in more fans but they will soon.
The change in food also discourages me from spending time in the village as i once did but i have to say the sausage&Onion rolls on the BBQ stand are pretty decent for the price.
The club dont help things though. There are less and less reasons and ways to engage with the club outside of match days. Fewer events (even if you include the expensive ones). I do feel a real change is UK stepped down, and i know Comrade Leon has a lot on his plate but it would be nice to have a very visible and vocal figure head back at the saints... Love them or hate them (more likely) Cockers, Booth, Edwards, COS etc..etc.. all these people are big personalities. It gives people something to rally round. It can be a DoR, Owner, Coach or Director but we seem to be missing a figure head.
Think i've wandered completely off my original point here.. Oh well. Never mind. I still think Saints are a great club and i can see these coaches and players wining something in the next few years if we can just get the spark back. Not sure how to get the good feeling back between the club/supporters though... The extras cost money i know and they dont realy need to bring in more fans but they will soon.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Marlowe (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 11:52
Right at the top Chris
This is a club that has everything going for it except success
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
This is a club that has everything going for it except success
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Saint in Florida (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 12:30
Great post Robby - thank you for encapsulating so well. I too used to feel more apart of the club but now feel less enfranchised. Sure there are things the club could do to improve but is does seem now that UK has gone into the background there is less of a focus figure and leader with no one currently aboard able to fill those big shoes.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: StBleach (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 12:33
"I am sure that our CEO with be along soon to address these issues."
Rumour has it that he is attending the Foundry next Saturday with Bernie the dog and buying everyone in the GB&G a beer whilst handing out flags.. nice touch.
Rumour has it that he is attending the Foundry next Saturday with Bernie the dog and buying everyone in the GB&G a beer whilst handing out flags.. nice touch.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: ChrisG (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 12:39
I do hope more than a dozen turn up Rob, thats what happened the last time a club tried it in there, though I'm still of the view it was a day release outing from the home for the bewildered. I also hope they don't try and film the locals for their publicity, they can get jolly batey about such things you know?
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Stockers (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 13:43
Good stuff Robby.
Chris W,
"This is no longer a club it is a business"
"Delete "Supporters", insert "Customers""
And here's an idea or two for you.
1. When Jim n Nobby first arrived, they held a Q&A session in the Rodber. Why not do another one?
2. Why doesn't the CEO, or any other director, show his face around the stands on match day and talk to thesupporters sorry, customers.
3. Why don't non-playing players join the fans in the stands?
Are we all in this together? At the moment, not bleddy likely!
Chris W,
"This is no longer a club it is a business"
"Delete "Supporters", insert "Customers""
And here's an idea or two for you.
1. When Jim n Nobby first arrived, they held a Q&A session in the Rodber. Why not do another one?
2. Why doesn't the CEO, or any other director, show his face around the stands on match day and talk to the
3. Why don't non-playing players join the fans in the stands?
Are we all in this together? At the moment, not bleddy likely!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 13:55
Thanks for reading & replying Chris, it's appreciated.
It's hard to put a finger on it. But the unity, the feeling of it being a family club really does seem to have dissipated. I realise were still doing the face painting and stuff for the kids but the terraces and stands are as flat as a pancake almost all of the time.
We've been embarrassed by the ulster and munster supporters in recent years in our support. Loud, boisterous, proud but above all organised. I've banged on about this for years but when the chips are down we aren't getting behind the boys and theres very little inspiration around in order for that to change. The shirt, especially at FG, seems to heavy.
Facebook & twitter you mention Chris, seems more like an RSS feed being updated a great deal of the time. Personally I dont follow any of the players on twitter & I wouldn't have the front to retweet some of the things they say. I'm dismissive of calling that interaction because from past experience when supporters have tweeted to them asking a question they often times are ignored. Okay, you might get the occasional retweet for charity purposes but to imply that twitter allows supporters more access with the players is a little wide of the mark.
Hey, i might be wrong, again I dont follow any of the players anymore and that might have changed. I know Sam & daisy like a spirited message now and again...
Spirit is missing, you can surely see it yourself, you need only listen to the stands. Were stagnant, were treading water and no one seems to care.
Look at Sarries, the tabards and the free flags ok, a little crass but if they get together beforehand at FG we seem quite willing to allow them to do that. Fair enough, but when was the last time we were offered such an opportunity at an away game? When was the last time we rallied the troops and built some fervour, some pride, and bloody well got behind the boys?
Speaking of last times...
When was the last time anyone from the board met with members of the SSC?
I think most of us understand the policies in place surrounding injuries & recruitment.
But again, we all seem to just be drifting along. We never get straight answers to anything. Every year were behind the 8 ball on recruitment. Other premiership teams are employing other methods to at least try to keep up with the French sides and Irish provinces.
Having brought in Rhys, James & Dom late in the day have all proven risks worth taking. Though James has had rotten luck with injuries and it's clear that Dom is rebuilding his confidence & form after a rough couple of final years at Wasps. But bringing them in late in the day (considering most sides that have most of their business done in march/early april) shows once again an issue.
I'm not going to mention the Cam Sheppard deal, i understand there were legal issues around it and may well still be. But again, it didn't show us in a particularly good light did it?
Ben Lewitt is now an agent, and a former saint, why not employ him as a go between for a bit of pre xmas naughtiness like others are alleged to be doing. Everyone and their auntie can see that recruitment has been an issue since Dimes returned oop north. But I don't think he's irreplaceable do you?
Also Chris while you're here...
its a bit of a personal bugbear.
If you could get us a straight answer on why the club employ 36 full time professionals and seem determined to only ever play 25 of them... into the ground... and then look and perform like a collection of punch drunk boxers in the final weeks of the season... every year...before failing dismally in the playoffs... that would be great.
Thanks for listening Chris, it is appreciated.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:22:13:58:05 by Robby Richmond.
It's hard to put a finger on it. But the unity, the feeling of it being a family club really does seem to have dissipated. I realise were still doing the face painting and stuff for the kids but the terraces and stands are as flat as a pancake almost all of the time.
We've been embarrassed by the ulster and munster supporters in recent years in our support. Loud, boisterous, proud but above all organised. I've banged on about this for years but when the chips are down we aren't getting behind the boys and theres very little inspiration around in order for that to change. The shirt, especially at FG, seems to heavy.
Facebook & twitter you mention Chris, seems more like an RSS feed being updated a great deal of the time. Personally I dont follow any of the players on twitter & I wouldn't have the front to retweet some of the things they say. I'm dismissive of calling that interaction because from past experience when supporters have tweeted to them asking a question they often times are ignored. Okay, you might get the occasional retweet for charity purposes but to imply that twitter allows supporters more access with the players is a little wide of the mark.
Hey, i might be wrong, again I dont follow any of the players anymore and that might have changed. I know Sam & daisy like a spirited message now and again...
Spirit is missing, you can surely see it yourself, you need only listen to the stands. Were stagnant, were treading water and no one seems to care.
Look at Sarries, the tabards and the free flags ok, a little crass but if they get together beforehand at FG we seem quite willing to allow them to do that. Fair enough, but when was the last time we were offered such an opportunity at an away game? When was the last time we rallied the troops and built some fervour, some pride, and bloody well got behind the boys?
Speaking of last times...
When was the last time anyone from the board met with members of the SSC?
I think most of us understand the policies in place surrounding injuries & recruitment.
But again, we all seem to just be drifting along. We never get straight answers to anything. Every year were behind the 8 ball on recruitment. Other premiership teams are employing other methods to at least try to keep up with the French sides and Irish provinces.
Having brought in Rhys, James & Dom late in the day have all proven risks worth taking. Though James has had rotten luck with injuries and it's clear that Dom is rebuilding his confidence & form after a rough couple of final years at Wasps. But bringing them in late in the day (considering most sides that have most of their business done in march/early april) shows once again an issue.
I'm not going to mention the Cam Sheppard deal, i understand there were legal issues around it and may well still be. But again, it didn't show us in a particularly good light did it?
Ben Lewitt is now an agent, and a former saint, why not employ him as a go between for a bit of pre xmas naughtiness like others are alleged to be doing. Everyone and their auntie can see that recruitment has been an issue since Dimes returned oop north. But I don't think he's irreplaceable do you?
Also Chris while you're here...
its a bit of a personal bugbear.
If you could get us a straight answer on why the club employ 36 full time professionals and seem determined to only ever play 25 of them... into the ground... and then look and perform like a collection of punch drunk boxers in the final weeks of the season... every year...before failing dismally in the playoffs... that would be great.
Thanks for listening Chris, it is appreciated.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:22:13:58:05 by Robby Richmond.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: John Rickerd (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 14:24
As season ticket holders we moved to the South Stand when it was enlarged, and the group of people around us have been there for the same time as well. After the last home game, they all said that they were questioning the point of continuing with their journey (From Peterborough and London), it made me think as well. It was not the result that was in question, but the style of play this year. We use to be on our feet cheering the second half tries in front of us.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: oh!&jeremy (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 14:37
I rarely post on topics of such depth, well done by the way Rob, but Duckonstilts hits it on the head for me - the Club does seem to lack a charismatic figurehead on or off the pitch at the moment.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: riverlodge (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 15:17
good, thought provoking article robby.
interesting responses too. agree the figurehead thing - personally i actually think its jim, and for various (probably understandable) reasons he seems to have increasingly said less and less with each interview.
i also think its difficult to put the change of feeling for supporters down to any one thing. guess the munster pool game to mk was the first big thing to rankle, then the change to fine foods, and for me (perhaps one of few) the loss of long standing 'club' stalwarts John Clark, Roger, Jimmy D and now Tiny (leavers are nobodies fault thats the game now, but disappointments nevertheless).
still many of us would get over all this if it was exciting, or at the very least intense on the pitch. that fortress franklins feeling, or at least the feeling that if we lost it had been like the bloody alamo.
i wont stop supporting, i dont think i can, but even though we cant necessarily 'know all the unknowns' we must have the debate and i'm hopeful that the club listens.
interesting responses too. agree the figurehead thing - personally i actually think its jim, and for various (probably understandable) reasons he seems to have increasingly said less and less with each interview.
i also think its difficult to put the change of feeling for supporters down to any one thing. guess the munster pool game to mk was the first big thing to rankle, then the change to fine foods, and for me (perhaps one of few) the loss of long standing 'club' stalwarts John Clark, Roger, Jimmy D and now Tiny (leavers are nobodies fault thats the game now, but disappointments nevertheless).
still many of us would get over all this if it was exciting, or at the very least intense on the pitch. that fortress franklins feeling, or at least the feeling that if we lost it had been like the bloody alamo.
i wont stop supporting, i dont think i can, but even though we cant necessarily 'know all the unknowns' we must have the debate and i'm hopeful that the club listens.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Flinstone Saint (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 15:41
An excellent piece Robby. I can only add my agreement to the points you raise and echo the view that there is a disconnect between the club and the supporters/customers.
For me one of the big "separations" this season was the feeling that the players are being hidden away - especially at the end of a home game when we never see them in the bars afterwards. They are now secreted away in a marquee with no access to them. I understand the desire for them to have their post match meal in peace and quiet but it also means we never see them anywhere near the bar mingling and chatting with the punters.
Chris W - I don't think it's preconcieved ideas that you need to break down. Imho it's prerceptions. We percieve we are being ignored/patronised/don't matter etc. Preconcieved ideas you can counter head on with facts, perceptions are much more difficult and could well take a lot longer since we may percieve attempts to put things right as propoganda and lip service. I don't know what you should be trying but whatever it is, try it for a bit longer than 1 or 2 weeks before giving up. It takes a while to change habits.
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For me one of the big "separations" this season was the feeling that the players are being hidden away - especially at the end of a home game when we never see them in the bars afterwards. They are now secreted away in a marquee with no access to them. I understand the desire for them to have their post match meal in peace and quiet but it also means we never see them anywhere near the bar mingling and chatting with the punters.
Chris W - I don't think it's preconcieved ideas that you need to break down. Imho it's prerceptions. We percieve we are being ignored/patronised/don't matter etc. Preconcieved ideas you can counter head on with facts, perceptions are much more difficult and could well take a lot longer since we may percieve attempts to put things right as propoganda and lip service. I don't know what you should be trying but whatever it is, try it for a bit longer than 1 or 2 weeks before giving up. It takes a while to change habits.
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Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Opinion8ed (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 16:40
Chris W
Its difficult to suggest what could be done to reconnect. Although restablishing the village with choice and value rather than Fine expensive rubbish would be a great start. It seems to me that the solution lies not in a few cosmetic activities or the odd meet the coaches evening. It is about the attitude of the club to its supporters. Its why so many mention the 'are we customers or supporters' issue.
If the club wants to exploit its supporter base to get as much as it can out of their pockets for as little return as possible then we are customers.And in that case teh club cannot be surprised when people moan that they are not being entertained.
If on the other hand the club recognises us as loyal supporters who come along and spend our money following the team we love year in year out then they need to reward that loyalty by trying to deliver what supporters want and have come to love about the club.
if you take those things away because it makes financial sense then it may eventiully be a commercial disaster as the club no lonmger has the magic mix of ingredients supporters fell in love with originally.
I once worked for a company that started to believe they knew what was best for customers despite what customer were saying they wanted. I soon left the company and it soon went bust.
It doesnt mean you cant change. Just be sure that you dont chnage the formula that made you a success in the first place - and in the case of Saints that was for me an attitude that said we are all in this together players, coaches directors and fans.
Today it feels to me that the fans are no longer respected as partners or valued for their contribution to the club as a whole - they are just cash cows.
Dont make cosmetic hanges. Chnage the culture before its too late.
Its difficult to suggest what could be done to reconnect. Although restablishing the village with choice and value rather than Fine expensive rubbish would be a great start. It seems to me that the solution lies not in a few cosmetic activities or the odd meet the coaches evening. It is about the attitude of the club to its supporters. Its why so many mention the 'are we customers or supporters' issue.
If the club wants to exploit its supporter base to get as much as it can out of their pockets for as little return as possible then we are customers.And in that case teh club cannot be surprised when people moan that they are not being entertained.
If on the other hand the club recognises us as loyal supporters who come along and spend our money following the team we love year in year out then they need to reward that loyalty by trying to deliver what supporters want and have come to love about the club.
if you take those things away because it makes financial sense then it may eventiully be a commercial disaster as the club no lonmger has the magic mix of ingredients supporters fell in love with originally.
I once worked for a company that started to believe they knew what was best for customers despite what customer were saying they wanted. I soon left the company and it soon went bust.
It doesnt mean you cant change. Just be sure that you dont chnage the formula that made you a success in the first place - and in the case of Saints that was for me an attitude that said we are all in this together players, coaches directors and fans.
Today it feels to me that the fans are no longer respected as partners or valued for their contribution to the club as a whole - they are just cash cows.
Dont make cosmetic hanges. Chnage the culture before its too late.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 17:19
Beautifully surmised Opinion8ed, beautiful.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: lilyg (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 17:20
Excellent article Robby, keep 'em coming!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: tedge (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 17:27
ChrisW nice chap and approachable that you are, you are also in a way symptomatic of some of the problems because you are the public voice of the club, but you are not even a board member and not the CEO. The perception might be that you are the "spin doctor" who protects those who make decisions from the irritating supporters. The public silence on matters Saints, other than in the rather bland matchday programme, from our CEO, or any other unpaid board member, is deafening.
As others mention, the perception is that complacency abounds; perception is everything and to change that it must come from the top.
As others mention, the perception is that complacency abounds; perception is everything and to change that it must come from the top.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: PelerinStJames (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 17:28
Chris,
For me, as has been mentioned, the issue is one of connectivity. Where I would start would be getting the non playing players, the board or even Saints Legends mingling in and amongst the fans on match days.
I remember my first trip to the Gardens as an 8 year old, not for the game, (I have no idea who we played,except that they were welsh) but for the fact that we spent 20 mins chatting with the then England Prop, Gary Pearce in the Hillards' car park after the game.
Equally, I went to Biarritz for a Hcup game (2002?) not only did we meet both playing squads post game in the club bar,but also people like Tim Rodber and Harvey Thorneycroft, who were all happy to share a beer and have a chat.
I appreciate that these examples were years ago in different eras, but what do you think kids/fans would prefer, a retweet, or the chance to meet and talk to their heroes in person?
Up in Glasgow on Saturday, about 45 mins before kick off, two players and a media man turned up in the bar area, where they welcomed the Saints fans and proceeded to do a couple of interviews. Simple,it only took about 15 mins, and I felt it added to the normal match day experience.
For me, as has been mentioned, the issue is one of connectivity. Where I would start would be getting the non playing players, the board or even Saints Legends mingling in and amongst the fans on match days.
I remember my first trip to the Gardens as an 8 year old, not for the game, (I have no idea who we played,except that they were welsh) but for the fact that we spent 20 mins chatting with the then England Prop, Gary Pearce in the Hillards' car park after the game.
Equally, I went to Biarritz for a Hcup game (2002?) not only did we meet both playing squads post game in the club bar,but also people like Tim Rodber and Harvey Thorneycroft, who were all happy to share a beer and have a chat.
I appreciate that these examples were years ago in different eras, but what do you think kids/fans would prefer, a retweet, or the chance to meet and talk to their heroes in person?
Up in Glasgow on Saturday, about 45 mins before kick off, two players and a media man turned up in the bar area, where they welcomed the Saints fans and proceeded to do a couple of interviews. Simple,it only took about 15 mins, and I felt it added to the normal match day experience.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Ginger Prince in Stockholm (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 18:20
Robby, great article – amazing how it resonates with so many.
Chris W, thanks a million for reading and responding, especially when you don’t have to. I know that many industries use concepts from others and try to or successfully apply them into their own. The generic, yet most successful is the Hedgehog Concept.
If the hedgehog concept is unfamiliar to anyone, imagine one having with the attention of a Fox. The Fox will lie down, crawl, walk, stalk, leap, bound, etc before attacking the hedgehog. The hedgehog curls up into a ball and uses its spikes to hopefully repel that attack. Its own concept is survival – the one thing it must do above all else.
If you take 3 comedians – Michael McIntyre, Al Murray and Frankie Boyle – all 3 have completely different acts on the comedy continuum (family orientated, bawdy man-down-the-pub-stereotype, to completely bad taste and shocking), but their hedgehog concept is identical...to make people laugh. The one thing the comedian must do above all else. Now you may hear things like timing / material / knowledge of the audience / location-specific humour, / etc, but these are all factors that contribute to the hedgehog concept.
An industry example for Pepsi is this: Beat Coke. 2 words – it’s that simple for them. Screw the rest, just beat coke. All the samples, tasting, market research, interviews, etc are the factors that contribute to their hedgehog concept.
Saracens have been mentioned a number of times in this thread, and they’re a great example of the hedgehog concept. Think back to when Edward Griffiths started this project – there was one thing in his remit at the time he gave most attention – his hedgehog concept. Forgive for not remembering the quote verbatim, but it was something along the lines of “To make Saracens the most talked about rugby club; to get into the minds of current, potential new and opposition supporters, so everybody knows the Saracens brand”.
I’ll tell you what – he and the club certainly did it. Regardless of what you think about it, the hedgehog concept was achieved. Remember the banner on the lift tower? Whether the intention to go through with it was real or a ruse, we talked more about that than we did about our own team in the build up to that game. Our over-reaction to what I considered a non-story was huge.
So when you look at the gatherings / playing in different stadiums / “there’s some special” / stand up/ everything else, they’ve been a huge success whilst many have ridiculed it and not noticed the progress made in that time. Just listing those points off the top of my head proves the point. We all know about Saracens. Job done, kudos to Edward G and Saracens. I may not buy into it in the way Saracens supporters do, but I know it’s all out there.
Maybe this is what we need? Blue sky vision and helicopter thinking (a select few may know and like that phrase), in keeping with how we would like to do business at our club, is crucial – at board, playing and supporter level. Could this be where the separate entities are linked?
My questions are:
1a - What’s the hedgehog concept of the club: At board level? At playing level?
1b – How / are the two concepts joined – Venn diagram anyone?
2a – What factors that contribute to the success of the hedgehog concept are we lacking?
2b – How soon before they are acknowledged and acted upon?
The longer the stagnation, slump, downturn, ignorance of the elephant in the room– whatever you want to call it – goes on for, the closer we are to mediocrity and below.
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
Chris W, thanks a million for reading and responding, especially when you don’t have to. I know that many industries use concepts from others and try to or successfully apply them into their own. The generic, yet most successful is the Hedgehog Concept.
If the hedgehog concept is unfamiliar to anyone, imagine one having with the attention of a Fox. The Fox will lie down, crawl, walk, stalk, leap, bound, etc before attacking the hedgehog. The hedgehog curls up into a ball and uses its spikes to hopefully repel that attack. Its own concept is survival – the one thing it must do above all else.
If you take 3 comedians – Michael McIntyre, Al Murray and Frankie Boyle – all 3 have completely different acts on the comedy continuum (family orientated, bawdy man-down-the-pub-stereotype, to completely bad taste and shocking), but their hedgehog concept is identical...to make people laugh. The one thing the comedian must do above all else. Now you may hear things like timing / material / knowledge of the audience / location-specific humour, / etc, but these are all factors that contribute to the hedgehog concept.
An industry example for Pepsi is this: Beat Coke. 2 words – it’s that simple for them. Screw the rest, just beat coke. All the samples, tasting, market research, interviews, etc are the factors that contribute to their hedgehog concept.
Saracens have been mentioned a number of times in this thread, and they’re a great example of the hedgehog concept. Think back to when Edward Griffiths started this project – there was one thing in his remit at the time he gave most attention – his hedgehog concept. Forgive for not remembering the quote verbatim, but it was something along the lines of “To make Saracens the most talked about rugby club; to get into the minds of current, potential new and opposition supporters, so everybody knows the Saracens brand”.
I’ll tell you what – he and the club certainly did it. Regardless of what you think about it, the hedgehog concept was achieved. Remember the banner on the lift tower? Whether the intention to go through with it was real or a ruse, we talked more about that than we did about our own team in the build up to that game. Our over-reaction to what I considered a non-story was huge.
So when you look at the gatherings / playing in different stadiums / “there’s some special” / stand up/ everything else, they’ve been a huge success whilst many have ridiculed it and not noticed the progress made in that time. Just listing those points off the top of my head proves the point. We all know about Saracens. Job done, kudos to Edward G and Saracens. I may not buy into it in the way Saracens supporters do, but I know it’s all out there.
Maybe this is what we need? Blue sky vision and helicopter thinking (a select few may know and like that phrase), in keeping with how we would like to do business at our club, is crucial – at board, playing and supporter level. Could this be where the separate entities are linked?
My questions are:
1a - What’s the hedgehog concept of the club: At board level? At playing level?
1b – How / are the two concepts joined – Venn diagram anyone?
2a – What factors that contribute to the success of the hedgehog concept are we lacking?
2b – How soon before they are acknowledged and acted upon?
The longer the stagnation, slump, downturn, ignorance of the elephant in the room– whatever you want to call it – goes on for, the closer we are to mediocrity and below.
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Chris Wearmouth (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 20:31
Thanks for that, Ginger Prince. However can you also say how you perceive us at the moment please as well - thanks!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Saint Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 20:45
I had a small idea. Why not have a player (academy, rested or injured) travel on the supporters club coach. There is one or two coaches to each game. Get them to mingle with the SSC on the coach. No names no pack drill.
Like Robbie I don't follow players on twitter (well for some reason I do follow Wilson but ?) But to me that is not communication.
There are plans for a COYS meet up - why not send a rep along?
Agree though it is very hard to put your finger on what is going wrong and how to change it - but lots needs to be tried.
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Benjamin Franklin
Tetleys Block F E143
Like Robbie I don't follow players on twitter (well for some reason I do follow Wilson but ?) But to me that is not communication.
There are plans for a COYS meet up - why not send a rep along?
Agree though it is very hard to put your finger on what is going wrong and how to change it - but lots needs to be tried.
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Benjamin Franklin
Tetleys Block F E143
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Alan B (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 20:58
2 items spring to mind from earlyish in the pro era.my boys were playing at oundle.
one sunday morning darren fox spent 2 hours with different age groups working at ruck technique, meanwhile jon philips was whipping people into shape at the scrummage machine-does this happen now?
do players get leant out to club end of season does?
saints were due to cover one at oundle,there was a mishap but JP turned up as a replacement, allbeit a bit late, but full of enthusiasm.
these things matter
one sunday morning darren fox spent 2 hours with different age groups working at ruck technique, meanwhile jon philips was whipping people into shape at the scrummage machine-does this happen now?
do players get leant out to club end of season does?
saints were due to cover one at oundle,there was a mishap but JP turned up as a replacement, allbeit a bit late, but full of enthusiasm.
these things matter
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: smurfomatic (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 21:01
Tim - of course, you could also get players similarly involved in something like a charity walk organised by Saints fans...
Photo Gallery
Photo Gallery
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Chris Wearmouth (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 21:02
Alan - it is up to local clubs to put in requests for players. It is not something that we can simply do.
Tim - I think that everyone will have an idea as to something that can be done. But what I need to understand first is how we are perceived and what pre-conceptions there are about us. Before we think of solutions we need to understand what the problem is, if that makes sense.
Tim - I think that everyone will have an idea as to something that can be done. But what I need to understand first is how we are perceived and what pre-conceptions there are about us. Before we think of solutions we need to understand what the problem is, if that makes sense.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Saint Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 21:21
How the club is seen?
Too interested in Money (difficult I know as we have to make money)
Too remote - I used to know several player who would stop and chat. Now I know none of them. This is only going to get worse as the ground grows. Hence my suggestions above.
Leaderless? Who is the leader? Jim is great to talk to in a private setting and is open and honest but the pre and post match comments for this weekends game could almost be written now - win or lose. Where is the statements on the pain they feel about the performances (or don't they care). We did not even feel like this when we were getting relegated! Who can we rally behind? Smudger was great at this.
Too comfortable? Are some players undropable? When can youngsters get an opportunity? What has happened to Temina and Nuts?
Lost focus - Is all the ground expansion taking the boards eyes off the ball?
Just some thoughts
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Benjamin Franklin
Tetleys Block F E143
Too interested in Money (difficult I know as we have to make money)
Too remote - I used to know several player who would stop and chat. Now I know none of them. This is only going to get worse as the ground grows. Hence my suggestions above.
Leaderless? Who is the leader? Jim is great to talk to in a private setting and is open and honest but the pre and post match comments for this weekends game could almost be written now - win or lose. Where is the statements on the pain they feel about the performances (or don't they care). We did not even feel like this when we were getting relegated! Who can we rally behind? Smudger was great at this.
Too comfortable? Are some players undropable? When can youngsters get an opportunity? What has happened to Temina and Nuts?
Lost focus - Is all the ground expansion taking the boards eyes off the ball?
Just some thoughts
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Benjamin Franklin
Tetleys Block F E143
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Saint Ted (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 21:36
Very good article Robby and good to see a response from Chris Wearmouth.
For me Chris, the feeling distanced from the lub started with the end of the open day, the opportunity to see the squad train and then visit parts of the ground that fans never get to see like the changing rooms, gym, team room etc, all helped in putting together pieces of a puzzle.
Now it's like we've got the middle section of the puzzle, but no edge.
I remember as a kid (and as an adult) being able to approach players post match for photographs and autographs, doesn't seem the case anymore. Players seem to be in a rush to get out of the club and there is far less interaction with them. What happened to the autograph area from a few years ago where the kids could wait and meet there heroes, knowing at some point all the playing squad would have to make their way past them. Don't get me wrong some of the guys are about, Tiny, big Sam and Martin Roberts IMHO are the most approachable, however on the flip side there are some you seldom see in the bars for more than a few fleeting seconds. I know it's not the players job to meet and greet but it would be great if the opportunity was there, even if in an organised structure, like an autograph area.
The price of beer doesn't bother me, it's comparable with in town pub prices, in fact I pay more in the Wig and Pen for a pint (granted its Peroni, but that's not the point). Other than the hog roast, I've never eaten in the village so can't comment on that, but the atmosphere back there is void these days.
One thing I do miss, and this doesn't really tie in with the 'family environment', is the betting kiosk that disappeared when the south stand was built I think, I always enjoyed a little flutter on the outcome of the match, I do understand it probably has licensing issues and really isn't for everyone, just a little something I personally enjoyed.
As for non playing players. Quit with the tweed during the match, it makes them look unapproachable, don't get me wrong, I like the tweed post match, it looks official and a smart uniform, but during the match, go back to the saints polo shirts and hoodies. It's small things like this that many may not think of as an issue, but if players are wearing kit the same, or very similar, to that of the supporter there is more of a connection.
For me Chris, the feeling distanced from the lub started with the end of the open day, the opportunity to see the squad train and then visit parts of the ground that fans never get to see like the changing rooms, gym, team room etc, all helped in putting together pieces of a puzzle.
Now it's like we've got the middle section of the puzzle, but no edge.
I remember as a kid (and as an adult) being able to approach players post match for photographs and autographs, doesn't seem the case anymore. Players seem to be in a rush to get out of the club and there is far less interaction with them. What happened to the autograph area from a few years ago where the kids could wait and meet there heroes, knowing at some point all the playing squad would have to make their way past them. Don't get me wrong some of the guys are about, Tiny, big Sam and Martin Roberts IMHO are the most approachable, however on the flip side there are some you seldom see in the bars for more than a few fleeting seconds. I know it's not the players job to meet and greet but it would be great if the opportunity was there, even if in an organised structure, like an autograph area.
The price of beer doesn't bother me, it's comparable with in town pub prices, in fact I pay more in the Wig and Pen for a pint (granted its Peroni, but that's not the point). Other than the hog roast, I've never eaten in the village so can't comment on that, but the atmosphere back there is void these days.
One thing I do miss, and this doesn't really tie in with the 'family environment', is the betting kiosk that disappeared when the south stand was built I think, I always enjoyed a little flutter on the outcome of the match, I do understand it probably has licensing issues and really isn't for everyone, just a little something I personally enjoyed.
As for non playing players. Quit with the tweed during the match, it makes them look unapproachable, don't get me wrong, I like the tweed post match, it looks official and a smart uniform, but during the match, go back to the saints polo shirts and hoodies. It's small things like this that many may not think of as an issue, but if players are wearing kit the same, or very similar, to that of the supporter there is more of a connection.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Saint Ted (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 21:41
Sorry, it's just dawned on me my massive post could have been a lot easier on the eye if I hadn't started to ramble on...
How do I perceive the club....unapproachable!
How do I perceive the club....unapproachable!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defences
Posted by: MoANjAm (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 22:05
How do I see the club?
As a professional, financially astute sports business. With players and back room staff as well.
We have a proud history, great ground and fan base but we do tend to trade on that quite a lot.
Most players seem transitory. I know it's in the nature of professional sport BUT they aren't all like John Clarke. What do I mean by that? Well to put it simply, the last time I spoke with him he had tears in his eyes - he just did not want to leave this club. He cared.
When I read a blog like Calum's after the last minute loss in Munster I KNOW that the man was hurting bad and struggling to come to terms with the events of that day. HE CARED SO MUCH. I don't feel that Ashton felt the same way.
SAINTSMEN. Says it all for me. Wayne Smith started it and we all recognised it. Where's it gone? You can't put a price on a branding like that.
I am worried that the Board are out of touch, that it needs an injection of youth. Leon is not visible these days.
I feel that the club will react to this situation in a piecemeal way an not really grasp what's going on. Hope there's not a plan for a Jazz Band walking round the pitch anytime soon put it that way you know?
It's time to realise the problem, accept it and consult. There's enough brains on here to work something out. COMEON PEOPLE. Do we want to let this all just dwindle and fall apart just as it was starting to get good?
And finally Chris - what's the best way for this great club if ours to demonstrate, to us, that it's actually listening? Cos if you really do show willing, you really will be able to create "something special".
Cheers Chris and everyone.
"sup·port·er"
Noun:
1.A person who approves of and encourages someone or something (typically a public figure, a movement or party, or a policy).
2.A person who is actively interested in and wishes success for a particular sports team.
As a professional, financially astute sports business. With players and back room staff as well.
We have a proud history, great ground and fan base but we do tend to trade on that quite a lot.
Most players seem transitory. I know it's in the nature of professional sport BUT they aren't all like John Clarke. What do I mean by that? Well to put it simply, the last time I spoke with him he had tears in his eyes - he just did not want to leave this club. He cared.
When I read a blog like Calum's after the last minute loss in Munster I KNOW that the man was hurting bad and struggling to come to terms with the events of that day. HE CARED SO MUCH. I don't feel that Ashton felt the same way.
SAINTSMEN. Says it all for me. Wayne Smith started it and we all recognised it. Where's it gone? You can't put a price on a branding like that.
I am worried that the Board are out of touch, that it needs an injection of youth. Leon is not visible these days.
I feel that the club will react to this situation in a piecemeal way an not really grasp what's going on. Hope there's not a plan for a Jazz Band walking round the pitch anytime soon put it that way you know?
It's time to realise the problem, accept it and consult. There's enough brains on here to work something out. COMEON PEOPLE. Do we want to let this all just dwindle and fall apart just as it was starting to get good?
And finally Chris - what's the best way for this great club if ours to demonstrate, to us, that it's actually listening? Cos if you really do show willing, you really will be able to create "something special".
Cheers Chris and everyone.
"sup·port·er"
Noun:
1.A person who approves of and encourages someone or something (typically a public figure, a movement or party, or a policy).
2.A person who is actively interested in and wishes success for a particular sports team.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: ClaireJ (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 22:09
Hey you've set us a challenge here Robbie - good stuff!
To meet Chris' request here goes with what I believe are some pre-conceptions about Northampton Saints - I think I still qualify as a supporter as I still have my A Block season ticket.
Preconceived ideas about Northampton Saints:
1. The club's primary interest is profit
2. The club believes supporters do not understand what it takes to deliver a successful team or how hard the coaches and playing squad are trying and it doesn't see it as having a role to explain what is actually happening
3. Northampton Saints has under-achieved compared to the investment made - the current team consistently fails on the big occasion
4. The board know each other very well; they do not know the supporters at all and make little effort to meet them
5. The club sees the supporters are a means to make money rather than be the 16th man (which it assumes they will be as they always have been)
6. Players very often leave the club badly where there ends up being a bad taste in the mouth for all concerned - examples include Chris Ashton, Bruce Reihana
7. The club does not encourage the players to build a direct relationship with the supporters - remote based on social media is ok but face to face is limited to work with the Community team
8. The club believes that everything is best delivered by a brand - for example local businesses in the village are overlooked for a national brand
9. Northampton Saints needs a world class fly-half
10. Things used to be better - First XV, players pulling pints in the bar, players coming back to the Rodbar after big games regardless of the result, after the game players talking to the supporters - I remember the days when Ben Foden would spend time walking around the edge of the pitch talking to folks and signing autographs
11. Given half a chance the club would move to Milton Keynes or at least move all the big games there to make more money
12. Where possible the coaches will play the same XV regardless of performance - many of the squad are overlooked and under-developed as a result.
ClaireJ
RedHatPhoto.com review of 2015 photos here...
Buy photos from RedHatPhoto
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:22:22:11:01 by ClaireJ.
To meet Chris' request here goes with what I believe are some pre-conceptions about Northampton Saints - I think I still qualify as a supporter as I still have my A Block season ticket.
Preconceived ideas about Northampton Saints:
1. The club's primary interest is profit
2. The club believes supporters do not understand what it takes to deliver a successful team or how hard the coaches and playing squad are trying and it doesn't see it as having a role to explain what is actually happening
3. Northampton Saints has under-achieved compared to the investment made - the current team consistently fails on the big occasion
4. The board know each other very well; they do not know the supporters at all and make little effort to meet them
5. The club sees the supporters are a means to make money rather than be the 16th man (which it assumes they will be as they always have been)
6. Players very often leave the club badly where there ends up being a bad taste in the mouth for all concerned - examples include Chris Ashton, Bruce Reihana
7. The club does not encourage the players to build a direct relationship with the supporters - remote based on social media is ok but face to face is limited to work with the Community team
8. The club believes that everything is best delivered by a brand - for example local businesses in the village are overlooked for a national brand
9. Northampton Saints needs a world class fly-half
10. Things used to be better - First XV, players pulling pints in the bar, players coming back to the Rodbar after big games regardless of the result, after the game players talking to the supporters - I remember the days when Ben Foden would spend time walking around the edge of the pitch talking to folks and signing autographs
11. Given half a chance the club would move to Milton Keynes or at least move all the big games there to make more money
12. Where possible the coaches will play the same XV regardless of performance - many of the squad are overlooked and under-developed as a result.
ClaireJ
RedHatPhoto.com review of 2015 photos here...
Buy photos from RedHatPhoto
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:22:22:11:01 by ClaireJ.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: saracens4life (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 22:22
Forgive another intrusion from an alien & probably ignorant position...but this is really interesting debate
Chris W...just to pick up on one thing you said earlier:
Well, to be blunt, why not? I'm sure if you were to ring up one of your local, junior clubs each week, tell them you've got 3 non-matchday players keen to come down on Sunday morning (I doubt the club would refuse), do some coaching, do some autographs, bring a cameraman, film the whole thing and upload a video, with usual PR stuff about 'connecting with grassroots'.
If your supporter base is anything like ours, a good proportion will be kids and dads from those sorts of clubs. Those people will feel part of the club and grateful for it - I know, it's happened to me. And heck if you wanna make money from it bring a car full of merchandise at cut-down prices, or give out vouchers for the shop.
It seems to me that this is an issue of being proactive vs standing still. It's hard for a supporter to feel especially connected to a club if their only contact is once a week. It becomes purely about rugby and results, not community.
Engendering said sense of community can't be done by sitting on one's heels content with attendances and profits (I'm not saying that is your attitude; I don't know). Surely it requires active engagement and initiatives - like, to be fair, your presence on this website - and such proactivity probably relates back to Ginger Prince's really helpful post about hedgehogs. That stuff above about players at local clubs is just one example.
Sorry to ramble, especially on your space...
Chris W...just to pick up on one thing you said earlier:
Quote:Alan - it is up to local clubs to put in requests for players. It is not something that we can simply do.
Well, to be blunt, why not? I'm sure if you were to ring up one of your local, junior clubs each week, tell them you've got 3 non-matchday players keen to come down on Sunday morning (I doubt the club would refuse), do some coaching, do some autographs, bring a cameraman, film the whole thing and upload a video, with usual PR stuff about 'connecting with grassroots'.
If your supporter base is anything like ours, a good proportion will be kids and dads from those sorts of clubs. Those people will feel part of the club and grateful for it - I know, it's happened to me. And heck if you wanna make money from it bring a car full of merchandise at cut-down prices, or give out vouchers for the shop.
It seems to me that this is an issue of being proactive vs standing still. It's hard for a supporter to feel especially connected to a club if their only contact is once a week. It becomes purely about rugby and results, not community.
Engendering said sense of community can't be done by sitting on one's heels content with attendances and profits (I'm not saying that is your attitude; I don't know). Surely it requires active engagement and initiatives - like, to be fair, your presence on this website - and such proactivity probably relates back to Ginger Prince's really helpful post about hedgehogs. That stuff above about players at local clubs is just one example.
Sorry to ramble, especially on your space...
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: ChrisG (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 22:26
And please, whatever 'it' is and what ever 'it' is meant to solve, let it be for everybody and be all encompassing and accessible, not just members of a 1st XV type setup, not just the SSC , not just the readers of this site, everyone. Its no good pacifying odd segments of supporters here and there (and I'd include the daft idea of a supporter on the board in that) while you leave 8,000 still disgruntled outside. It has to have a face and it has to be very public. Some of the suggestions above are just papering over cracks. Think big Saints!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Sarge (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 22:32
Speaking of last times...
When was the last time anyone from the board met with members of the SSC? *
The role of the Supporters Club has changed several times since it was first formed (1940s?). One thing that it is not though is a pressure group - and I don't think that anyone on the current committee would seek to move in that direction.
If any member of the SSC wants us to take on that role they can submit a motion to the AGM at the end of the season.
* However, the SSC does have contact with the Saints at several levels, usually to the advantage of both parties.
When was the last time anyone from the board met with members of the SSC? *
The role of the Supporters Club has changed several times since it was first formed (1940s?). One thing that it is not though is a pressure group - and I don't think that anyone on the current committee would seek to move in that direction.
If any member of the SSC wants us to take on that role they can submit a motion to the AGM at the end of the season.
* However, the SSC does have contact with the Saints at several levels, usually to the advantage of both parties.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: ChrisG (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 22:52
Purely a personal view but I don't think the SSC should ever be a pressure group in any way or form. Why join yet something else to have a say in something in which you may well already be a member, season ticket holder and /or shareholder of.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: John Rickerd (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 22:55
Why did the club stop the Open Day?
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Rubadubdub; remember Seb Tubb? (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 22:56
Seems to me that what the fans want (and I include myself I. This) is for an amateur club in a professional world.
Sorry Chris, disagree entirely.the local clubs have given the saints a lot, with little being offered back in return; Ben Cohen, Steve Thompson, Courtney Lawes (old scouts) Allan Clarke, Paul Diggin (BBOB'S) the wallers (ON's) are all local talent that have been taken from local amateur rugby for free. I have always maintained that The saints need to be far more proactive in the local rugby scene by which I mean players regularly offering coaching; not just to the senior teams but to the juniors; the kids that idolise and try to emulate their heroes, and their parents would love this! if you were to ring up Keith Shurville at old scouts and say to him, "hello, was just wondering if you would like a couple of our first team players to come and coach your first team/under 9's" there is no way that he would say, "no chance! Why would we want that!!" The local clubs would absolutely love it; without doubt!! My point is this; if the senior professional side does the running, it is looked upon far more favourably by ALL of those involved in the junior amateur club. every happy customer tells 10 friends etc. makes it far easier to cheer for somebody that you feel that you have a personal connection with, despite how tenuous that link may be.
For example, just before england went to SA In the summer, the COYS touch rugby team were playing t dally park; Dylan saw it, pulled his car over and joined in. Certainly changed my opinion of him!
There are also rumblings of some pretty big (in my eyes) PR disasters. For example CHARGING the local clubs BIG BUCKS to host the touch rugby league was mental!
Charging BIG BUCKS for the curry night... Mental!! Things like this totally disenfranchise the club from the fans!!
I would suggest you get yourself down to a local club, and ask the supporters of those teams what it is that draws them back to their team, week after week, and try to replicate that!!
Quote:Chris w
Alan - it is up to local clubs to put in requests for players. It is not something that we can simply do.
Sorry Chris, disagree entirely.the local clubs have given the saints a lot, with little being offered back in return; Ben Cohen, Steve Thompson, Courtney Lawes (old scouts) Allan Clarke, Paul Diggin (BBOB'S) the wallers (ON's) are all local talent that have been taken from local amateur rugby for free. I have always maintained that The saints need to be far more proactive in the local rugby scene by which I mean players regularly offering coaching; not just to the senior teams but to the juniors; the kids that idolise and try to emulate their heroes, and their parents would love this! if you were to ring up Keith Shurville at old scouts and say to him, "hello, was just wondering if you would like a couple of our first team players to come and coach your first team/under 9's" there is no way that he would say, "no chance! Why would we want that!!" The local clubs would absolutely love it; without doubt!! My point is this; if the senior professional side does the running, it is looked upon far more favourably by ALL of those involved in the junior amateur club. every happy customer tells 10 friends etc. makes it far easier to cheer for somebody that you feel that you have a personal connection with, despite how tenuous that link may be.
For example, just before england went to SA In the summer, the COYS touch rugby team were playing t dally park; Dylan saw it, pulled his car over and joined in. Certainly changed my opinion of him!
There are also rumblings of some pretty big (in my eyes) PR disasters. For example CHARGING the local clubs BIG BUCKS to host the touch rugby league was mental!
Charging BIG BUCKS for the curry night... Mental!! Things like this totally disenfranchise the club from the fans!!
I would suggest you get yourself down to a local club, and ask the supporters of those teams what it is that draws them back to their team, week after week, and try to replicate that!!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Marlowe (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2013 23:17
Chris
I agree with much if not all of Claire's post, and s4c beat me to the punch. I like you muchly Chris (for Esther, vici and Jeni reasons) , but your answer was a cop out. Pick up a phone ~ make the offer ~ don't whinge about clubs responsibility to contact Saints. Like us they probably think you couldn't care less
And your question about pre-conceptions smacks to me of. "They've got it all wrong" we'll just tell them where they've got it wrong". I feel so unbelievably patronised by that question that I will be writing to the board to find out who thinks that is an appropriate response. Maybe the mute CEO who speaks to no one might grace us with an answer
I won't hold my breath though. I appreciate that you have read these posts Chris, but I am profoundly disappointed by the " tell me your preconceptions approach "
Perception is reality
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
I agree with much if not all of Claire's post, and s4c beat me to the punch. I like you muchly Chris (for Esther, vici and Jeni reasons) , but your answer was a cop out. Pick up a phone ~ make the offer ~ don't whinge about clubs responsibility to contact Saints. Like us they probably think you couldn't care less
And your question about pre-conceptions smacks to me of. "They've got it all wrong" we'll just tell them where they've got it wrong". I feel so unbelievably patronised by that question that I will be writing to the board to find out who thinks that is an appropriate response. Maybe the mute CEO who speaks to no one might grace us with an answer
I won't hold my breath though. I appreciate that you have read these posts Chris, but I am profoundly disappointed by the " tell me your preconceptions approach "
Perception is reality
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Ugly (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 00:01
Maybe the thing most people are missing is that the company describes itself legally as in the business of 'Operation of Sports Arenas & Stadiums'. It's a property business, and it can get divorced entirely from the 'game of thugs' if it so chooses. Being on a cash mountain from subscriptions is a rare bonus which not many sports businesses can boast of. Much of that comes from tv etc, but the timely and predictable cash comes from us. The quality of season ticket cash is vital, and frankly a few glass etchings listing some names is paying lip service only.
Preconceptions?
1. That the property business should serve the RFC when push comes to shove. And especially when that shove is to the last peak.
2. Officiousness in stewarding, safety nonsense, in short being herded, not welcomed. Try thinking of stewarding as the Olympic Games makers and it would show you how far away from the ideal you are.
3. Gouging on food, drinks, clothing, etc. and that probably applies to hefty fees to the stall owners too.
It all stems from the return per square metre mentality which is backward looking.
Having served a decade and more in C block from the days when you could bang on the roof to being drowned out by PA systems, it is a deep source of sadness that the Gardens is quietened quite easily now. We are no longer the best singers with the best songs.
Frankly under the empty suit, nowt will change, so don't hold your breath. Baby Barwell has his first big test - a bigger one than even Jim faces in my view: change to basket ball, bowls or crazy golf or fix it for the RFC...
Just because you're born in a stable - it doesn't make you a horse...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:23:00:03:38 by Ugly.
Preconceptions?
1. That the property business should serve the RFC when push comes to shove. And especially when that shove is to the last peak.
2. Officiousness in stewarding, safety nonsense, in short being herded, not welcomed. Try thinking of stewarding as the Olympic Games makers and it would show you how far away from the ideal you are.
3. Gouging on food, drinks, clothing, etc. and that probably applies to hefty fees to the stall owners too.
It all stems from the return per square metre mentality which is backward looking.
Having served a decade and more in C block from the days when you could bang on the roof to being drowned out by PA systems, it is a deep source of sadness that the Gardens is quietened quite easily now. We are no longer the best singers with the best songs.
Frankly under the empty suit, nowt will change, so don't hold your breath. Baby Barwell has his first big test - a bigger one than even Jim faces in my view: change to basket ball, bowls or crazy golf or fix it for the RFC...
Just because you're born in a stable - it doesn't make you a horse...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:23:00:03:38 by Ugly.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Phil. (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 00:20
As an aside, I notice the form is down on the Offy...
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Rubadubdub; remember Seb Tubb? (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 07:43
I'm all for lambasting any CEO that is perceived to be not doing his job... But... Isn't our CEO seriously poorly? If so, the comments directed at him would appear to me to be harsh in the extreme!
If I'm wrong then have at it!
If I'm wrong then have at it!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Marlowe (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 08:52
AFAIK
Our CEO is Allan Robson
Our Chairman is Leon Barwell
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Our CEO is Allan Robson
Our Chairman is Leon Barwell
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Jazzman (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 09:00
As far as I am concerned many of the preconceived ideas I don't have a problem with:-
If the board runs the club/company at a profit and that in turn keeps ticket prices down and facilities up then fine that is what company boards are supposed to do isn't it?
Remember the club sold/leased the food and bar (?) to outside businesses no doubt at a healthy rate, so don't go banging on to the club about the prices/choices get on to the vendors outside of match days. They want to make a profit too, which they won't if they are not used.Although I have no desire to eat in the village or drink in the bars there always seem to be plenty of people who do.
Why shouldn't the board treat us as cash cows? I don't have a problem if it generates profits that can improve the team.
The idea of getting the board and or players to mingle with supporters on the way to/before and after games is in my opinion laughable. What are you going to talk about? If it is rugby they will rightly say talk to JM. However it is not beyond belief that board members and players will want to discuss camera settings*, The Roman-Etruscan Wars*, Mongolian Nose singing* or the contents of your left nostril*, but I doubt it.Leave the directors in their ivory towers to do what they do best run the company well in profitable terms and the players to whatever players do in their free time.
Chris Wearmouth has the good grace to come on this board and ask for opinions and suggestions. Please don't knock him for that. He could have raised the proverbial digit!
Those who have discussed the points raised and shot down some on this board are a minority of Saints supporters and this shouldn't be forgotten. Sometimes I believe that some think they have more influence than they do.
Will all the postulating however improve the team's performance, generate a better atmosphere, guarantee HC qualification or win a trophy in the next decade, I doubt it, but if it does it will be worth it.
P.S.The idea of interacting with local clubs is an excellent idea, not that many years ago Lennie Newman arranged for Carlos Spencer and one or two others to attend a junior awards ceremony on a Sunday morning at Kettering Rugby Club. Brilliant the kids loved it, photos, autographs, etc. Definitely worth the effort.
If the board runs the club/company at a profit and that in turn keeps ticket prices down and facilities up then fine that is what company boards are supposed to do isn't it?
Remember the club sold/leased the food and bar (?) to outside businesses no doubt at a healthy rate, so don't go banging on to the club about the prices/choices get on to the vendors outside of match days. They want to make a profit too, which they won't if they are not used.Although I have no desire to eat in the village or drink in the bars there always seem to be plenty of people who do.
Why shouldn't the board treat us as cash cows? I don't have a problem if it generates profits that can improve the team.
The idea of getting the board and or players to mingle with supporters on the way to/before and after games is in my opinion laughable. What are you going to talk about? If it is rugby they will rightly say talk to JM. However it is not beyond belief that board members and players will want to discuss camera settings*, The Roman-Etruscan Wars*, Mongolian Nose singing* or the contents of your left nostril*, but I doubt it.Leave the directors in their ivory towers to do what they do best run the company well in profitable terms and the players to whatever players do in their free time.
Chris Wearmouth has the good grace to come on this board and ask for opinions and suggestions. Please don't knock him for that. He could have raised the proverbial digit!
Those who have discussed the points raised and shot down some on this board are a minority of Saints supporters and this shouldn't be forgotten. Sometimes I believe that some think they have more influence than they do.
Will all the postulating however improve the team's performance, generate a better atmosphere, guarantee HC qualification or win a trophy in the next decade, I doubt it, but if it does it will be worth it.
P.S.The idea of interacting with local clubs is an excellent idea, not that many years ago Lennie Newman arranged for Carlos Spencer and one or two others to attend a junior awards ceremony on a Sunday morning at Kettering Rugby Club. Brilliant the kids loved it, photos, autographs, etc. Definitely worth the effort.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Saint Tub (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 09:38
Reading all the above I would suggest the following Chris
1 - Pro-actively placing Saints into the rugby community - schools, local clubs and maybe media events. When a player is a pundit - tell people. When players do something for charity - get it in the paper, programme etc.
2 - Player access - I think the crux is people are worried Saints are slipping with no plan. They want players to tell them its going to be ok. We are going through a big period of change with long serving players leaving - as Claire and others say - usually badly. We should celebrate their service - get some shirts on the walls of the somewhat bland function rooms, we should have international shirts everywhere Tiggers style with the number of capped players we have! and get the 13 or so guys not playing on a matchday shaking hands / signing things and smiling.
3 - Stealing from Twickers but updating - why don't you create a Saints nation wall ? Everyone pays for a small 3''2'' pen pic (or submits on-line). You add your comment of good luck and then get a local artist to make them into a mosaic image of something rugby linked (or the club badge). A bit of effort for something lasting and visually stunning.
4 - We have to face facts that we are in a digital age - people are sad players may be leaving but accept it happens. Its the fact its reported fully and the club just clamps its mouth in denial thats tough. So for Brian (for eg) if we believe the Racing link..
"We would love to keep Brian and talked to him but he is looking for a new challenge". "His (x) caps for Saints included memorable tries and none of us will forget his performance against (y)." Brian says "I will be putting everything into ensuring Saints are well placed for playoffs and Heineken next year so I can square up against my good mate Tiny".
Its not hard - lap of the pitch - maybe he 'buys' around for everyone at the bar to say cheers and adieu ?
5 - An explanation of whats going on - the other note above - people think players are undroppable (and its hard to argue against). Thats clearly not working for players who join, players who can tweet, fans who watch.. Just look on here at the attention (and sympathy) Dragon gets as Rhys's dad! He doesn't get what Rhys needs to do and thats cascading to supporters.
6 - Betting booth !! Awesome !! Failing that - why not get a link to someone like Paddypower - they (I'm sure) would play ball - display odds - next scorer in the game etc - terminals for those without smart phones and a "free £5 bet" or something if you spend £5 on matchday... adds a bit of 'different feeling' and excitement
1 - Pro-actively placing Saints into the rugby community - schools, local clubs and maybe media events. When a player is a pundit - tell people. When players do something for charity - get it in the paper, programme etc.
2 - Player access - I think the crux is people are worried Saints are slipping with no plan. They want players to tell them its going to be ok. We are going through a big period of change with long serving players leaving - as Claire and others say - usually badly. We should celebrate their service - get some shirts on the walls of the somewhat bland function rooms, we should have international shirts everywhere Tiggers style with the number of capped players we have! and get the 13 or so guys not playing on a matchday shaking hands / signing things and smiling.
3 - Stealing from Twickers but updating - why don't you create a Saints nation wall ? Everyone pays for a small 3''2'' pen pic (or submits on-line). You add your comment of good luck and then get a local artist to make them into a mosaic image of something rugby linked (or the club badge). A bit of effort for something lasting and visually stunning.
4 - We have to face facts that we are in a digital age - people are sad players may be leaving but accept it happens. Its the fact its reported fully and the club just clamps its mouth in denial thats tough. So for Brian (for eg) if we believe the Racing link..
"We would love to keep Brian and talked to him but he is looking for a new challenge". "His (x) caps for Saints included memorable tries and none of us will forget his performance against (y)." Brian says "I will be putting everything into ensuring Saints are well placed for playoffs and Heineken next year so I can square up against my good mate Tiny".
Its not hard - lap of the pitch - maybe he 'buys' around for everyone at the bar to say cheers and adieu ?
5 - An explanation of whats going on - the other note above - people think players are undroppable (and its hard to argue against). Thats clearly not working for players who join, players who can tweet, fans who watch.. Just look on here at the attention (and sympathy) Dragon gets as Rhys's dad! He doesn't get what Rhys needs to do and thats cascading to supporters.
6 - Betting booth !! Awesome !! Failing that - why not get a link to someone like Paddypower - they (I'm sure) would play ball - display odds - next scorer in the game etc - terminals for those without smart phones and a "free £5 bet" or something if you spend £5 on matchday... adds a bit of 'different feeling' and excitement
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Chris Wearmouth (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 09:41
Quote:St Marlowe
Chris
I agree with much if not all of Claire's post, and s4c beat me to the punch. I like you muchly Chris (for Esther, vici and Jeni reasons) , but your answer was a cop out. Pick up a phone ~ make the offer ~ don't whinge about clubs responsibility to contact Saints. Like us they probably think you couldn't care less
And your question about pre-conceptions smacks to me of. "They've got it all wrong" we'll just tell them where they've got it wrong". I feel so unbelievably patronised by that question that I will be writing to the board to find out who thinks that is an appropriate response. Maybe the mute CEO who speaks to no one might grace us with an answer
I won't hold my breath though. I appreciate that you have read these posts Chris, but I am profoundly disappointed by the " tell me your preconceptions approach "
Perception is reality
David, your perception of my intention behind the question is way off the mark. You may feel patronised by it, but before you come up with solutions you have to first understand the problems.
Some of those problems are tangible - rise in food and drink prices, the team not achieving the heights we all want week in week out - but some of them are perception. For example, because the price of a burger may have gone up there may very well be the perception that prices across the board have gone up. But ticket prices have stayed the same for three years and replica shirts and match programmes have stayed the same for a lot longer than that.
I've been asked by the chairman and vice chairman for some blue sky thinking about everything that is being spoken about in this thread. Having been in this job for six years, and having stood on the terraces for 14 years before that, I could easily have shut my door and gone "I know what the problems are". If I had done so then you could quite rightly accuse me of being patronising. But I'm not. I'm actually asking for one pretty basic thing - what pre-conceptions (and therefore perceptions) are there about the Saints as an organisation. What is so wrong about that?
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Saint Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 09:57
Chris - are any of the comments coming as a surprise.
Re ticket prices/shirt prices being held - I think we do appreciate this - but for a ST holder these tend to be one off purchases (once a year or so) - food and drink are per match day purchases and so in some ways have greater psychological impact to many.
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Benjamin Franklin
Tetleys Block F E143
Re ticket prices/shirt prices being held - I think we do appreciate this - but for a ST holder these tend to be one off purchases (once a year or so) - food and drink are per match day purchases and so in some ways have greater psychological impact to many.
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Benjamin Franklin
Tetleys Block F E143
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: tedge (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 10:07
I suggest that the Chairman and Vice-Chairman come down for their (perceived) ivory towers and start asking the questions themselves
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: dragon27 (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 11:34
I wonder if this frustration simply reflects the teams under achievements this season or is it deeper.
If we were to contest the play offs and do well would the current frustration subside.
If we were to contest the play offs and do well would the current frustration subside.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: DaventrySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 11:47
We've been very poor around this time of year for the past 2 or 3 years dragon and we've never been this disgruntled before.
I think the poor, poor rugby displayed against Glasgow was the straw that broke the camels back. Unfortunately the smoke and mirrors of successful rugby is beginning to fail.
I think the poor, poor rugby displayed against Glasgow was the straw that broke the camels back. Unfortunately the smoke and mirrors of successful rugby is beginning to fail.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St ann (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 12:32
I think it is a question of "belonging" to a "family" which has slipped over the past couple of years. It does seem that the players are now quite insular and I think many of the supporters wonder how much they are "buying" into the club. It also appears that all the events organised by the club are pitched at corporate level - it would be good to have some things aimed at the ordinary supporter where we could meet some of the players maybe.
Also when there is an away game at a far away place (such as Glasgow) it would be good if the club/players could acknowledge that people have spent money/ taken time off work to support them and that the pain is shared!!!
Also when there is an away game at a far away place (such as Glasgow) it would be good if the club/players could acknowledge that people have spent money/ taken time off work to support them and that the pain is shared!!!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: ChrisG (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 13:57
I'd say theres more digruntlement (okay I know thats not a word) around now than either time we were relegated. It's not exclusively a success driven thing.
In fact when Bruce grabbed that microphone the day we last went down there was a feeling of we're all in this together. There isn't in my view anything near that feeling anymore.
In fact when Bruce grabbed that microphone the day we last went down there was a feeling of we're all in this together. There isn't in my view anything near that feeling anymore.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: saracens4life (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 15:57
On Chris' point...
Leicester Mercury
Leicester Mercury
Quote:Tom Youngs, on the Welford Road crowd
"I don't think I've heard them so loud," said Tigers and England hooker Youngs. "They were absolutely fantastic.
"I think Cockers (director of rugby Richard Cockerill) called it in the week, saying we need all the fans behind us. We certainly had that.
"They kept us going out there. They certainly kept me going, getting me off the floor and stuff like that.
"When they are screaming behind me, I almost can't hear Geoff Parling making the calls (at the line-outs). Good job I'm turning into a good lip reader at the minute."
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Ugly (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 18:17
On a personal note - very many thanks to Chris for engaging with this forum. It's always done well, and appreciated. We are a curmudgeonly bunch at best - but we mean well.
You have a problem right there, though - one of the perceptions is that all that is needed in the mind's of senior management is a PR policy to make the issue go away. We're long past that.
My comments on the corporate position come from many years running businesses bigger and smaller than this one, and long recent experience as non-executive director as well.
The choice of a merchandising and events led character to run the business as CEO is a strategic choice. It means the facilities rentals, etc are perceived priorities, and getting big sponsor scalps like Monarch are the real focus. It is what it is, but it need not be that way.
My point is that frankly it's not being done that well, as this is a very high calories choice of strategy: it does nothing to advance cash, it builds stock and liabilities, not reduces them, it is rarely cash positive, and it encourages a hire and fire approach to staff. It is most likely to hit you worst when you are least able to cope with cash drains. It is astutely perceived here as why season ticket holders in particular are treated as consumers not supporters.
Culturally it is chalk and cheese to the subscription services mentality that is the main alternative. People never ride both of those horses. Choose - and with the choice in place at the moment, all the season ticket holders will get is excuses and gimmicks.
For those who say the business has to be profitable, etc, etc - of course it does - and it is important to know that the business was cash positive throughout the relegation period - very much so. This was down to hands on work by the Barwells, yes, but the up front cash from supporters was crucial; try doing it on loans and see how far you get. If anything this cash profile has deteriorated recently. Firms like Thomson Reuters - another plc you may have heard of - manage their whole empire on 'net operating cash' - the real measure of performance. Saints? 07/8 = £1.3-1.4m despite relegation; a very impressive performance financially. 2012: £202k. Much of the devil is the detail - notably undefined 'other creditors' - but even allowing for some senior staff and property issues factoring in, this is not a strategy that inspires.
Can the business expand capacity by 30% or more and hope to maintain a strategy of ramping up facilities top ups, Eden Park shirts, Pricey airlines, etc? Some sports firms have, but most fail (the bane of most premiership teams). To attempt to do it without the good will of the season ticket holders is risky, and we are no Manchester United. On what planet does a brand premium strategy sit comfortably with the delightful environs that are St James'? Why not a mid-market or even pile 'em high approach; either would involve less 'brand stretch'. Choices again.
I firmly believe Saints can get 97% capacity on a 24k stadium in due course, even with this group of managers and players - but with this commercial strategy it is getting more unlikely by the day. Tempus fugit.
Just because you're born in a stable - it doesn't make you a horse...
You have a problem right there, though - one of the perceptions is that all that is needed in the mind's of senior management is a PR policy to make the issue go away. We're long past that.
My comments on the corporate position come from many years running businesses bigger and smaller than this one, and long recent experience as non-executive director as well.
The choice of a merchandising and events led character to run the business as CEO is a strategic choice. It means the facilities rentals, etc are perceived priorities, and getting big sponsor scalps like Monarch are the real focus. It is what it is, but it need not be that way.
My point is that frankly it's not being done that well, as this is a very high calories choice of strategy: it does nothing to advance cash, it builds stock and liabilities, not reduces them, it is rarely cash positive, and it encourages a hire and fire approach to staff. It is most likely to hit you worst when you are least able to cope with cash drains. It is astutely perceived here as why season ticket holders in particular are treated as consumers not supporters.
Culturally it is chalk and cheese to the subscription services mentality that is the main alternative. People never ride both of those horses. Choose - and with the choice in place at the moment, all the season ticket holders will get is excuses and gimmicks.
For those who say the business has to be profitable, etc, etc - of course it does - and it is important to know that the business was cash positive throughout the relegation period - very much so. This was down to hands on work by the Barwells, yes, but the up front cash from supporters was crucial; try doing it on loans and see how far you get. If anything this cash profile has deteriorated recently. Firms like Thomson Reuters - another plc you may have heard of - manage their whole empire on 'net operating cash' - the real measure of performance. Saints? 07/8 = £1.3-1.4m despite relegation; a very impressive performance financially. 2012: £202k. Much of the devil is the detail - notably undefined 'other creditors' - but even allowing for some senior staff and property issues factoring in, this is not a strategy that inspires.
Can the business expand capacity by 30% or more and hope to maintain a strategy of ramping up facilities top ups, Eden Park shirts, Pricey airlines, etc? Some sports firms have, but most fail (the bane of most premiership teams). To attempt to do it without the good will of the season ticket holders is risky, and we are no Manchester United. On what planet does a brand premium strategy sit comfortably with the delightful environs that are St James'? Why not a mid-market or even pile 'em high approach; either would involve less 'brand stretch'. Choices again.
I firmly believe Saints can get 97% capacity on a 24k stadium in due course, even with this group of managers and players - but with this commercial strategy it is getting more unlikely by the day. Tempus fugit.
Just because you're born in a stable - it doesn't make you a horse...
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Geoff S (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 20:11
Some of those problems are tangible - rise in food and drink prices, the team not achieving the heights we all want week in week out - but some of them are perception. For example, because the price of a burger may have gone up there may very well be the perception that prices across the board have gone up. But ticket prices have stayed the same for three years and replica shirts and match programmes have stayed the same for a lot longer than that.
Saints replica shirts £64.99, Moseley replica shirts £49.00. Is the higher price due to better quality or higher profit margin?
Saints replica shirts £64.99, Moseley replica shirts £49.00. Is the higher price due to better quality or higher profit margin?
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Alan B (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 20:36
Just to go back to my earlier post about contact with the local clubs. There was a perception then that saints weren't too bothered about clubs that weren't near Northampton. in the north of the county people were looking towards Leicester.
suspect there is even less outreach now.
saints do have to make that move and spread the good will.
I also wonder how much inertia there is re season tickets. does one want to lose the decent seat or the spot in C block so try another year? that can't keep up forever.
At present one of the fun bits is the interaction on the terrace-really wish it was the rugger and there was less opportunity for me to make silly comments.
Finally and contradicting myself slightly. Do we get the team we deserve? Although we moan (and we did when we were playing better) we don't support in the almost feral way that some others do.We are nice. Wouldn't change that but does it rub off on the team.
now waiting for some play i can cheer
suspect there is even less outreach now.
saints do have to make that move and spread the good will.
I also wonder how much inertia there is re season tickets. does one want to lose the decent seat or the spot in C block so try another year? that can't keep up forever.
At present one of the fun bits is the interaction on the terrace-really wish it was the rugger and there was less opportunity for me to make silly comments.
Finally and contradicting myself slightly. Do we get the team we deserve? Although we moan (and we did when we were playing better) we don't support in the almost feral way that some others do.We are nice. Wouldn't change that but does it rub off on the team.
now waiting for some play i can cheer
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Saintly Pursuit (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 22:23
In direct answer to your question Chris.
My perception is that I have gone from being a supporter to being a customer and am on the verge of just being seen as part of a profit centre.
Let us take one example - The catering in the village. It changed, not by evolution but by big bang. I quite liked what we had it was part of my matchday experience. Could it have been improved? - yes; but it wasn't, IMO, fundamentally wrong.
Has it been improved - IMO, no.
I've yet to hear anyone stand up and say it's better. That's not to say that nobody approves of the changes but I've not met them yet.
What slightly irked is the "we are improving the matchday experience" line. Be honest - was that the motive for the Fine Food contact? How was the decision that the matchday experience in that area needed improving made? We are pretty good at moaning about things here and I do not recollect a single moan about it needing to be improved prior to this year.
To put things in context on this. In previous seasons we (three of us) would normally partake of the food in the village (Balti, Sauls or Pastie). We did try the offering from Fine Foods but it was poor quality for the price and therefore will not be purchasing from them again. It's difficult to attract customers but ever so easy to lose them.
I guess in all of this my perception is of a gradual erosion. thisgs we had and liked going. Others have mentioned things like the open day etc. The cost, whilst not zero, must be small, the benefits to the club though are manifold.
In fairness I should acknowledge the posative things that have been done - I like the big screen, the real ale choice in the Rodber but I'm struggling to find more improvements than that.
Having answered the question that you asked Chris I'll say that my reaction to your question itself was similar to St Marlowe's. By the very nature of the question you are project the assumption that the issue is about pre-conceptions and therefore the answer is to change those pre-conceptions. Why can't you ask the simple question "What do you think could be done to improve things?". You will get many answers, some of which will be brilliant but unachievable, some will be barking but in with those will be the answer. Any you know what, even the unachievable and barking suggestions will have nuggets within them.
BTW we don't come just for the food we also enjoy the rugby (well not just recently but I won't moan about that). Another perception of mine is probably aimed a little at your department Chris - I perceive that sometimes the rugby takes second fiddle to the selling. For example, there have been a number of Wanderers fixtures that haven't been publicised by the club and that details are scant and hard to come by. More often than not they flagged up here from the opposition team's website way in advance of anything appearing on the Offy. It's good news so tell us about it! I like to watch the Wanderers, I hope the players appreciate the support, they are part of the club. Spend the time that you take sending me the marketing emails (most of which never get read) to keep me informed what is actually going on Rugby wise.
Apologies tha this is long and rambling but I hope it may be of some help and I look forward to the Gardens being rosey again some time soon (please!!!!!).
My perception is that I have gone from being a supporter to being a customer and am on the verge of just being seen as part of a profit centre.
Let us take one example - The catering in the village. It changed, not by evolution but by big bang. I quite liked what we had it was part of my matchday experience. Could it have been improved? - yes; but it wasn't, IMO, fundamentally wrong.
Has it been improved - IMO, no.
I've yet to hear anyone stand up and say it's better. That's not to say that nobody approves of the changes but I've not met them yet.
What slightly irked is the "we are improving the matchday experience" line. Be honest - was that the motive for the Fine Food contact? How was the decision that the matchday experience in that area needed improving made? We are pretty good at moaning about things here and I do not recollect a single moan about it needing to be improved prior to this year.
To put things in context on this. In previous seasons we (three of us) would normally partake of the food in the village (Balti, Sauls or Pastie). We did try the offering from Fine Foods but it was poor quality for the price and therefore will not be purchasing from them again. It's difficult to attract customers but ever so easy to lose them.
I guess in all of this my perception is of a gradual erosion. thisgs we had and liked going. Others have mentioned things like the open day etc. The cost, whilst not zero, must be small, the benefits to the club though are manifold.
In fairness I should acknowledge the posative things that have been done - I like the big screen, the real ale choice in the Rodber but I'm struggling to find more improvements than that.
Having answered the question that you asked Chris I'll say that my reaction to your question itself was similar to St Marlowe's. By the very nature of the question you are project the assumption that the issue is about pre-conceptions and therefore the answer is to change those pre-conceptions. Why can't you ask the simple question "What do you think could be done to improve things?". You will get many answers, some of which will be brilliant but unachievable, some will be barking but in with those will be the answer. Any you know what, even the unachievable and barking suggestions will have nuggets within them.
BTW we don't come just for the food we also enjoy the rugby (well not just recently but I won't moan about that). Another perception of mine is probably aimed a little at your department Chris - I perceive that sometimes the rugby takes second fiddle to the selling. For example, there have been a number of Wanderers fixtures that haven't been publicised by the club and that details are scant and hard to come by. More often than not they flagged up here from the opposition team's website way in advance of anything appearing on the Offy. It's good news so tell us about it! I like to watch the Wanderers, I hope the players appreciate the support, they are part of the club. Spend the time that you take sending me the marketing emails (most of which never get read) to keep me informed what is actually going on Rugby wise.
Apologies tha this is long and rambling but I hope it may be of some help and I look forward to the Gardens being rosey again some time soon (please!!!!!).
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Marlowe (IP Logged)
Date: 23/01/2013 23:04
Quote:Chris W
David, your perception of my intention behind the question is way off the mark. You may feel patronised by it, but before you come up with solutions you have to first understand the problems.
Some of those problems are tangible - rise in food and drink prices, the team not achieving the heights we all want week in week out - but some of them are perception. For example, because the price of a burger may have gone up there may very well be the perception that prices across the board have gone up. But ticket prices have stayed the same for three years and replica shirts and match programmes have stayed the same for a lot longer than that.
I've been asked by the chairman and vice chairman for some blue sky thinking about everything that is being spoken about in this thread. Having been in this job for six years, and having stood on the terraces for 14 years before that, I could easily have shut my door and gone "I know what the problems are". If I had done so then you could quite rightly accuse me of being patronising. But I'm not. I'm actually asking for one pretty basic thing - what pre-conceptions (and therefore perceptions) are there about the Saints as an organisation. What is so wrong about that?
Where to start Chris?
before you come up with solutions you have to first understand the problems.
You could have taken this statement from my post of Monday - I appreciate exactly what you are trying to achieve, and the methodology is correct.
The question you ask, however is not. A preconception is not a perception. A preconception is an opinion formed beforehand without adequate evidence or a a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation. (free dictionary) The people of whom you ask the question will feel they have plenty of evidence for their statements (see the very strong comments you have received). These are not "preconceptions". They are based on experience.
That was the reason for my reference to patronising, because in that context your question automatically assumes that the respondent has not experieced the event/problem, but just believes it exists. (and could be addressed by PR and spin - see posts above)
a better way to get to the problems would have been to ask a direct question. i.e. "what is it that is causing you to be discontent with Saints"?
You have been asked to address these issues by the Chairman and vice-chair.
I would have hoped the CEO would have taken an interest. so heres a "pre-conception" for you - The Saints appears to be be an organisation that has retained the same structures internally during a period when it has doubled in size. Is this true? right? sustainable?
Such approaches lead - as Ugly refers to above to a high turnover in staff (not really possible in the current economic climate) or a culture of management by diktat and staff worried for their jobs. ( chimes a bit with a statement by an ex player that he was "frightened to make mistakes" ) "pre-conception" = there is an internal management problem which may affect the playing squad.
This is a preconception I have arrived at by adding 2 and 2 and getting to 5 because it is a preconception not an evidence based response. (I hope)
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:24:08:37:28 by St Marlowe.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Ginger Prince in Stockholm (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2013 07:39
Quote:Chris Wearmouth
Thanks for that, Ginger Prince. However can you also say how you perceive us at the moment please as well - thanks!
Certainly, Chris. And thanks again for personally replying, and encouraging further contributions.
A preconception that fits a recent 'fact'. Fact - we are often the bridesmaids; see the HC, and play-offs of recent years.
Preconception - that we're happy to qualify for the play-offs and HC and no further. The soundbites confirm this "we want to be in the play-offs/make the top 4/the LV is important for us/we're a top 6 club". It seems that success is defined by those statements in ascending order.
Imagine Jim in the press room at various times of the season, saying some/all/any of the following when the previous level has been reached. We'll be looking at qualifying for Europe - top six. We're aiming for the play-offs (once we're in the top six)...hey, maybe we can get into the top four? Then, if we're in the top four, we could try for a home semi-final. Sound familiar?
The whole language and low(ish) ambition with built in bonuses that could accumulate to something bigger - it bugs me immensely. I know it could be part of Jim's pragmatic approach, but to me (and people I've brought to FG or got watching Saints on tv), we appear to be a club that is happy to be involved and enjoys a run of tempered success (HC final visit), without ever demanding ultimate success on the field. It's like buying a sports car, but keeping to the speed limits or buying the 4x4 and never going dune bashing/offroading...built for purpose, looks great, but never truly tested in the optimum conditions.
Compare this with Quins/Tigers/Sarries - "we want to WIN trophies". Not we'd like to, we WANT to/we WILL.
I'm conscious I've rambled in these two posts - I'll stop here, but thanks once again, Chris
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Stockers (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2013 09:35
Chris W, many thanks for engaging in this debate and I hope it is proving to be useful for you and ultimately the club.
Being a simple bear, I will deal with "preconceptions" and not worry about the language but, in addition to my earlier post above,
"Saints - nice club, great ground, loyal fans, average results."
I'm not too fussed about the food or beer, although it has gone up in price but down in quality, my main concern is the declining playing performance and the subsequent lack of courage by the board, coaches and players in engaging meaningfully with the shareholders and supporters to explain how it is going to be fixed.
Many years ago I signed the Official Secrets Act. I don't recall it covering the running of rugby clubs.
Being a simple bear, I will deal with "preconceptions" and not worry about the language but, in addition to my earlier post above,
"Saints - nice club, great ground, loyal fans, average results."
I'm not too fussed about the food or beer, although it has gone up in price but down in quality, my main concern is the declining playing performance and the subsequent lack of courage by the board, coaches and players in engaging meaningfully with the shareholders and supporters to explain how it is going to be fixed.
Many years ago I signed the Official Secrets Act. I don't recall it covering the running of rugby clubs.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Matthew (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2013 10:14
A very good, though-provoking post. Still mulling over my own thoughts.
But shouldn't this be made a sticky?
But shouldn't this be made a sticky?
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: OldPete (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2013 12:46
If I may add some things
Chris W - its not about pre- conceptions at all - which to my mind ( as for St Marlowe too ) suggests that we/people have got the wrong idea about the club and we need to be corrected.
Or to put another way the right PR will assuage our mistaken concerns.
It is I suspect that peoples perceptions of the club and their association with it have changed from where they were a few years ago.
Its about more than "The match day experience " what ever that is - i go to watch a game of rugby being played my my team .
But having said that it is the serial crass insensitivity about the peripherals - the food outlets - the over priced events - etc. that adds incrementally to the alienation of the supporter base.
Its about morale on and off the pitch in the club and amongst its supporters -I suspect it is at a lower ebb than it has been for some considerable time.
That's what needs to be addressed and it will take more than a white board and some easily misunderstood words thereon.
Chris W - its not about pre- conceptions at all - which to my mind ( as for St Marlowe too ) suggests that we/people have got the wrong idea about the club and we need to be corrected.
Or to put another way the right PR will assuage our mistaken concerns.
It is I suspect that peoples perceptions of the club and their association with it have changed from where they were a few years ago.
Its about more than "The match day experience " what ever that is - i go to watch a game of rugby being played my my team .
But having said that it is the serial crass insensitivity about the peripherals - the food outlets - the over priced events - etc. that adds incrementally to the alienation of the supporter base.
Its about morale on and off the pitch in the club and amongst its supporters -I suspect it is at a lower ebb than it has been for some considerable time.
That's what needs to be addressed and it will take more than a white board and some easily misunderstood words thereon.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Lloydie (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2013 16:31
Great to read a proper debate and I agree with many of the comments above so will try and avoid repetition.
The Munster defeat at MK was a defining moment for me as just after the final whistle an e-mail arrived from the club headed "learn to play the Saints way" oh dear...!
Clearly professional rugby is becoming like Wendy ball with players shielded from the fans and Twitter seen as supporters having access to their heroes!
My club has lost connection with its supporters and the local community with local concessions priced out of "The Village" in favour of £££ serving inedible food.
Stewards who are unable to check tickets properly allowing C Block Terrace to become overcrowded but can spot a toe over the yellow line and berate the individual for creating a hazard!
Marketing over Rugby - Remember The cancelled Greatest Event Ever? or curry nights at a price greater than Northampton's finest restaurants!
I do not subscribe for a return to the amateur days and understand that "professionalism" brings new challenges and commitments to sponsors etc.
Action needs to be taken to reengage supporters and the club, apart from Digger we are lacking a tales-manic player who responds to the crowd (remember Bruce Bruce Bruce, Mighty Tim and Big Ben Cohen).
I believe the board need to review their structure and roles, Uncle Keith is not able to play the role he used too and Leon has his own way of doing things and different priorities.
Lennie Newman (whilst not too everyone's taste) was a link between us that worked and we need a return to Q&A sessions and club open days that worked well previously.
A few years ago we had the best ground, a competitive squad and we were all in it together (or at least it felt like that?), compared to now where we have to move to MK for big games, are herded like cattle on match days and have a squad who (some) appear not to give a dam about their supporters.
The Munster defeat at MK was a defining moment for me as just after the final whistle an e-mail arrived from the club headed "learn to play the Saints way" oh dear...!
Clearly professional rugby is becoming like Wendy ball with players shielded from the fans and Twitter seen as supporters having access to their heroes!
My club has lost connection with its supporters and the local community with local concessions priced out of "The Village" in favour of £££ serving inedible food.
Stewards who are unable to check tickets properly allowing C Block Terrace to become overcrowded but can spot a toe over the yellow line and berate the individual for creating a hazard!
Marketing over Rugby - Remember The cancelled Greatest Event Ever? or curry nights at a price greater than Northampton's finest restaurants!
I do not subscribe for a return to the amateur days and understand that "professionalism" brings new challenges and commitments to sponsors etc.
Action needs to be taken to reengage supporters and the club, apart from Digger we are lacking a tales-manic player who responds to the crowd (remember Bruce Bruce Bruce, Mighty Tim and Big Ben Cohen).
I believe the board need to review their structure and roles, Uncle Keith is not able to play the role he used too and Leon has his own way of doing things and different priorities.
Lennie Newman (whilst not too everyone's taste) was a link between us that worked and we need a return to Q&A sessions and club open days that worked well previously.
A few years ago we had the best ground, a competitive squad and we were all in it together (or at least it felt like that?), compared to now where we have to move to MK for big games, are herded like cattle on match days and have a squad who (some) appear not to give a dam about their supporters.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2013 16:55
Quote:Lloydie
herded like cattle on match days
I have a feeling a lot of this is because fewer people turn up early to get there beer/food and settle into there seats. I'm one of those that has started getting there with 15 mins to go. Used to be in my seat well before that.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: ChrisG (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2013 19:29
Spot on Mr Lloyd & Pete
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: NorthHertsSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2013 08:24
This is the first time I have ever posted on this board, but I am a daily reader of it. My credentials: I have been a season ticket holder for over 20 years, and I am a founder shareholder.
At the risk of making this post long and tedious, may I, as they say, “tell you where I am on this”.
Links with local clubs: As I am not local I have no first hand knowledge of this, but I was genuinely shocked and angry to read the comments. I could not believe that the club does not invest more time in this. The marginal cost must be small, but the potential (commercial) benefits massive – let alone future player potential. Isn’t it a no brainer? ChrisW: I think you need to come back on this if nothing else; it’s the lifeblood of the game. Tell the board it’s “Corporate Social Responsibility” (which frankly it is) if that’s the only language they understand, but please sort it.
Communication: Personally I am not so fussed about this. I don’t expect the club to announce deals (in or out) ahead of the done deal and I don’t think we can expect it to. As for news of injuries and potential return dates, I suppose there is a player confidentiality point but I don’t think it would really be giving away any state secrets to be more open on this.
Relationship with players: I don’t particularly want to socialise with players before or after the game, but I can't argue with those who say that it would be a good PR move for the club to encourage (allow?) non-playing squad members to frequent the bars / food village on match days. European away games are a different matter. Someone above mentioned Biarritz and you can add Toulouse to that when the team turned up in the pub. It worked wonders for PR, even though we lost both of those games! Let the fans know where the team will be, and leave the rest to us.
Talking of the food village: don’t get me started. All I will say is that when the tenders were considered the “better quality” and “value for money” tests were either forgotten or drowned by financial considerations. I used to eat in it always, I never do now.
Atmosphere: anyone been to Quins recently? Last time I went friendly banter with (and started by) both the programme seller and gateman. Someone dressed in a suit and a Quins tie – no idea who he was but clearly important – asked me if I’d have a good journey, how I thought the game would go, and hoped I enjoyed it. Would this happen at FG? I doubt it. Little things, cost nothing, but it makes a huge difference.
Last but not least: I was lucky enough to go to Munster last season, and I shamelessly lift all of these ideas from them (for European games and maybe biggies like Quins Tigs and Sarries). Have the electronic road traffic signs on the A43 (I am sure they are elsewhere as well) read “Welcome to Saints”. Get buses that pass FG to have Saints flags on the dashboard – and make sure all the local pubs have them as well. Festoon every lamppost from the railway station to Sixfields with flags. Most importantly, book whoever organises the pre-match “entertainment” at Thomond Park and get them to do a Saints version. Forget third rate X Factor runners up; there I knew how the spectators felt whilst waiting for the Christians to be fed to the lions, thinking you might be next, and it put the fear of Seamus into me! Heavens knows what it does to the home crowd. I am sure it was not cheap, but factor in the benefits from increased sales, future loyalty, and “building the brand” I bet a lot of the cost is offset.
Overall the message in Munster was: we are a great club, we are at the centre of the community, and we fear no one. Isn’t that exactly what we want everyone to think of us? Is the root of all of this our sense that the club does not share these values?
Ramblings over.
At the risk of making this post long and tedious, may I, as they say, “tell you where I am on this”.
Links with local clubs: As I am not local I have no first hand knowledge of this, but I was genuinely shocked and angry to read the comments. I could not believe that the club does not invest more time in this. The marginal cost must be small, but the potential (commercial) benefits massive – let alone future player potential. Isn’t it a no brainer? ChrisW: I think you need to come back on this if nothing else; it’s the lifeblood of the game. Tell the board it’s “Corporate Social Responsibility” (which frankly it is) if that’s the only language they understand, but please sort it.
Communication: Personally I am not so fussed about this. I don’t expect the club to announce deals (in or out) ahead of the done deal and I don’t think we can expect it to. As for news of injuries and potential return dates, I suppose there is a player confidentiality point but I don’t think it would really be giving away any state secrets to be more open on this.
Relationship with players: I don’t particularly want to socialise with players before or after the game, but I can't argue with those who say that it would be a good PR move for the club to encourage (allow?) non-playing squad members to frequent the bars / food village on match days. European away games are a different matter. Someone above mentioned Biarritz and you can add Toulouse to that when the team turned up in the pub. It worked wonders for PR, even though we lost both of those games! Let the fans know where the team will be, and leave the rest to us.
Talking of the food village: don’t get me started. All I will say is that when the tenders were considered the “better quality” and “value for money” tests were either forgotten or drowned by financial considerations. I used to eat in it always, I never do now.
Atmosphere: anyone been to Quins recently? Last time I went friendly banter with (and started by) both the programme seller and gateman. Someone dressed in a suit and a Quins tie – no idea who he was but clearly important – asked me if I’d have a good journey, how I thought the game would go, and hoped I enjoyed it. Would this happen at FG? I doubt it. Little things, cost nothing, but it makes a huge difference.
Last but not least: I was lucky enough to go to Munster last season, and I shamelessly lift all of these ideas from them (for European games and maybe biggies like Quins Tigs and Sarries). Have the electronic road traffic signs on the A43 (I am sure they are elsewhere as well) read “Welcome to Saints”. Get buses that pass FG to have Saints flags on the dashboard – and make sure all the local pubs have them as well. Festoon every lamppost from the railway station to Sixfields with flags. Most importantly, book whoever organises the pre-match “entertainment” at Thomond Park and get them to do a Saints version. Forget third rate X Factor runners up; there I knew how the spectators felt whilst waiting for the Christians to be fed to the lions, thinking you might be next, and it put the fear of Seamus into me! Heavens knows what it does to the home crowd. I am sure it was not cheap, but factor in the benefits from increased sales, future loyalty, and “building the brand” I bet a lot of the cost is offset.
Overall the message in Munster was: we are a great club, we are at the centre of the community, and we fear no one. Isn’t that exactly what we want everyone to think of us? Is the root of all of this our sense that the club does not share these values?
Ramblings over.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: StBleach (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2013 09:10
Someone recently reminded us of what Shaggy Greenwood once said in line with the Saints fans would turn up to watch the grass grow - that was maybe so back in the day. These days, the club would charge something like £55 per head, claim it was a horticulture master class and throw in pie and chips from the Weedon Road chippy..
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: St Marlowe (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2013 09:39
NorthHertsSaint
What a great contribution.
Post more please!
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
What a great contribution.
Post more please!
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: tedge (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2013 12:42
Top post NHS - hope CW and others not only read it but DO something.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: NorthHertsSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2013 13:47
At the risk of outstaying my welcome, can I add this.
Like it or not the club is a business, we need to make money, and we do. The club is in a relatively strong financial position. We can still attract a top quality backs coach and a top quality scrum half. It's not all doom and gloom! We must give credit where credit is due.
Also, we are customers, whether we like it or not.
What I can't understand is how this is incompatible with what us fans want. Any business has to look after its customer base, and actually all we are asking for, in business terms, is for the club to build its brand and to develop customer loyalty. It's a virtuous circle - strong local (and regional) support, customer loyalty, increased profile, more sponsorship, more profit, more investment in the brand and the future. Win win.
If this is right, then the gap between us should be easily bridgeable. That's the challenge to ChrisW, Leon, and the rest.
The only thing I haven't mentioned is success on the pitch. That starts tomorrow! Let's show commitment to our part of the bargain by raising the roof of the Tetley's in rousing support.
Come on you Saaaaints!
Like it or not the club is a business, we need to make money, and we do. The club is in a relatively strong financial position. We can still attract a top quality backs coach and a top quality scrum half. It's not all doom and gloom! We must give credit where credit is due.
Also, we are customers, whether we like it or not.
What I can't understand is how this is incompatible with what us fans want. Any business has to look after its customer base, and actually all we are asking for, in business terms, is for the club to build its brand and to develop customer loyalty. It's a virtuous circle - strong local (and regional) support, customer loyalty, increased profile, more sponsorship, more profit, more investment in the brand and the future. Win win.
If this is right, then the gap between us should be easily bridgeable. That's the challenge to ChrisW, Leon, and the rest.
The only thing I haven't mentioned is success on the pitch. That starts tomorrow! Let's show commitment to our part of the bargain by raising the roof of the Tetley's in rousing support.
Come on you Saaaaints!
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Stockers (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2013 19:55
NHS, where have you been hiding all these years??
Fantastic posts and I especially agree about the value of the "Saints Brand". It's what defines as a club and it's what is rather rapidly ebbing away.
Fantastic posts and I especially agree about the value of the "Saints Brand". It's what defines as a club and it's what is rather rapidly ebbing away.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: A-Saint (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2013 14:37
A very thought-provoking thread (prompting a first post for a long time) and well done Chris for getting involved too - and to the club for some quick actions this weekend.
Chris, I agree with your approach to identify the problem first, but fear that this could also create a bit of tunnel vision. At a very top level, it appears the issues are obvious - "disengagement with supporters" and "lack of emotional connection", with more specific issues below this. Why not then turn it on its head and ask for what the club could improve and then see what the common themes coming through are underneath the specific issues which come up?
Anyway, back to the question:
How is the club perceived?
- Profit before supporters
- Corporate before supporters
- Corporate before rugby
- a faceless organisation- as the club has grown, the community and family spirit has disappeared
Now I salute the tremendous work the club has done off the pitch and to see profit in successive years has to be applauded. But, in the leisure service industry which Northampton Saints operates, there is little tangible that supporters can relate to. Particularly with sport, this leaves the relationship to the emotional element - and it is this that seems to be lost. What's more, the greatest tangible asset the club have at their disposal to connect to supporters, the players, are seemingly only used for corporate events (hospitality, etc) - or those which supporters have to fork out an arm and a leg for.
Whilst they may not be everyone's cup of tea, some of the initiatives which Saracens are employing down at their new ground seem to be very good - really building that community element in there. Granted, they have to start from scratch and some will argue that Saints did this years ago (I became hooked myself after the free tickets given to schools for matches - does this ever happen now?), but maybe we need to swallow a bit of pride and go back to basics too?
Community
This response has really disheartened me, I'm afraid - do clubs know they can request players? Are top players actually going to be put forward, or just the community coaches? Which clubs will they go to - just the core Northampton clubs, or further afield?
As someone else said - are clubs really going to say "No thanks, we don't want a professional (possibly international) rugby player to come and help coach and inspire our youngsters" if they're offered? Highly unlikely...
How about presence in surrounding areas? It seems that the once strong presence in North Buckinghamshire is no more. Is this now Wasps territory (despite it being closer to Northampton than H. Wycombe)?
Marketing/Communication/Engagement
The club has done some great stuff with Social Media and generated a really good following, with #SaintsNation on Twitter and the videos available through Facebook, but nothing compares to contact 'in person' for the kids (and big kids!) to meet their heroes. The lack of a full scale Open Day is one way the club has seriously dropped the ball...
I remember a signing session in The Centre:MK years ago, giving everyone a great chance to engage with players, ask questions, get autographs, free (yes, free) posters, etc.
Leon Barwell and Mr Robson are leading the club, but seemingly nowhere to be seen - apart from a sound-bite when a new sponsor is announced. It seems that gone are the days when UK would turn up to a pub at an away match, mingle with supporters and buy everyone a drink. On the note of club hierarchy mixing with the supporters, I understand Tony Fernandes, the QPR chairman, chose to sit with the fans at a recent away match of theirs - hats off to him for that.
Matchday Experience
As blunt as it may sound, is there a match-day experience anymore?
As for the "Fine" food - I've not tried it and don't intend to at those prices/quality. I appreciate the club don't set the individual prices, but I imagine that if the price of the tender wasn't so high, these could have been reduced?
Of course, this forum won't give a full spectrum of Saints supporters and their views, so why not get some supporters down to the Rodbar with some refreshments (for free... Edit: the fact that I actually typed this sub-consciously probably says a lot), making them feel like part of a club - their club - and get some conversations going?
There will always be highs and lows - that's sport after all AND part of the fun of it, but last season, and more so this season, I must say something has seemed different. The crowds are flat (not helped by the Friday night games, in my opinion) and I feel some of the pride/emotion has gone.
Let's not get too doom and gloom though. I'll be there whatever - as will many others - but for a growing number, that relationship and, dare I say it, "goodwill" may not last forever...
Chris, I agree with your approach to identify the problem first, but fear that this could also create a bit of tunnel vision. At a very top level, it appears the issues are obvious - "disengagement with supporters" and "lack of emotional connection", with more specific issues below this. Why not then turn it on its head and ask for what the club could improve and then see what the common themes coming through are underneath the specific issues which come up?
Anyway, back to the question:
Quote:Chris Wearmouth
So help me get started by telling me what pre-conceived ideas there are about Northampton Saints...
How is the club perceived?
- Profit before supporters
- Corporate before supporters
- Corporate before rugby
- a faceless organisation- as the club has grown, the community and family spirit has disappeared
Now I salute the tremendous work the club has done off the pitch and to see profit in successive years has to be applauded. But, in the leisure service industry which Northampton Saints operates, there is little tangible that supporters can relate to. Particularly with sport, this leaves the relationship to the emotional element - and it is this that seems to be lost. What's more, the greatest tangible asset the club have at their disposal to connect to supporters, the players, are seemingly only used for corporate events (hospitality, etc) - or those which supporters have to fork out an arm and a leg for.
Whilst they may not be everyone's cup of tea, some of the initiatives which Saracens are employing down at their new ground seem to be very good - really building that community element in there. Granted, they have to start from scratch and some will argue that Saints did this years ago (I became hooked myself after the free tickets given to schools for matches - does this ever happen now?), but maybe we need to swallow a bit of pride and go back to basics too?
Community
Quote:Chris Wearmouth
it is up to local clubs to put in requests for players. It is not something that we can simply do.
This response has really disheartened me, I'm afraid - do clubs know they can request players? Are top players actually going to be put forward, or just the community coaches? Which clubs will they go to - just the core Northampton clubs, or further afield?
As someone else said - are clubs really going to say "No thanks, we don't want a professional (possibly international) rugby player to come and help coach and inspire our youngsters" if they're offered? Highly unlikely...
How about presence in surrounding areas? It seems that the once strong presence in North Buckinghamshire is no more. Is this now Wasps territory (despite it being closer to Northampton than H. Wycombe)?
Marketing/Communication/Engagement
The club has done some great stuff with Social Media and generated a really good following, with #SaintsNation on Twitter and the videos available through Facebook, but nothing compares to contact 'in person' for the kids (and big kids!) to meet their heroes. The lack of a full scale Open Day is one way the club has seriously dropped the ball...
I remember a signing session in The Centre:MK years ago, giving everyone a great chance to engage with players, ask questions, get autographs, free (yes, free) posters, etc.
Leon Barwell and Mr Robson are leading the club, but seemingly nowhere to be seen - apart from a sound-bite when a new sponsor is announced. It seems that gone are the days when UK would turn up to a pub at an away match, mingle with supporters and buy everyone a drink. On the note of club hierarchy mixing with the supporters, I understand Tony Fernandes, the QPR chairman, chose to sit with the fans at a recent away match of theirs - hats off to him for that.
Matchday Experience
As blunt as it may sound, is there a match-day experience anymore?
As for the "Fine" food - I've not tried it and don't intend to at those prices/quality. I appreciate the club don't set the individual prices, but I imagine that if the price of the tender wasn't so high, these could have been reduced?
Of course, this forum won't give a full spectrum of Saints supporters and their views, so why not get some supporters down to the Rodbar with some refreshments (for free... Edit: the fact that I actually typed this sub-consciously probably says a lot), making them feel like part of a club - their club - and get some conversations going?
There will always be highs and lows - that's sport after all AND part of the fun of it, but last season, and more so this season, I must say something has seemed different. The crowds are flat (not helped by the Friday night games, in my opinion) and I feel some of the pride/emotion has gone.
Let's not get too doom and gloom though. I'll be there whatever - as will many others - but for a growing number, that relationship and, dare I say it, "goodwill" may not last forever...
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Alan B (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2013 23:05
if any of the directors have earplugs they can come and stand near me on match day for some real experience!
but seriously why don't they?
but seriously why don't they?
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2013 10:33
Quote:Alan B
if any of the directors have earplugs they can come and stand near me on match day for some real experience!
but seriously why don't they?
Maybe they do... Do you know what they look like? *
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: saintian (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2013 12:29
Quote:Alan B
if any of the directors have earplugs they can come and stand near me on match day for some real experience!
but seriously why don't they?
maybe because they'd rather 'mix it' with the likes of Serge Blanco/Gareth Edwards/Sir John Major/Buck Shelford/etc over a glass of chablis/designer beer/canape/prawn sandwich (delete as appropriate) at half time, rather than have a pint of AG spilt on them in C Block (and once upon a time, go deaf), courtesy of the great unwashed?*
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: tedge (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2013 16:01
Given a choice I think I would too ![[:wor kid:]](/phorum-5.1.15/mods/smileys/images/13.gif "[:wor kid:]")
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Beef (IP Logged)
Date: 01/02/2013 01:54
'When was the last time a board member met with the SSC?'
Mr Robson met with us at least 6 years ago, before he was on the board...er, thats it, apart from, usually informal/chance meetings around the ground. Chris W, Brian Facer etc are always willing to stop and chat, as is UK, Leon and Dr Jon.
However, these are not formal meetings, more like quick chats. The SSC is not a pressure group - not big enough for a start.
As for whats wrong - well, even as the chairman of the SSC, these days I don't get excited about winning or losing. I'm even considering my options for next season.
My Girlfriends young son has split loyaties between Tigers and Saints. At Saints he gets to watch the game. Even I don't know where to take him to get players autographs. At Tigers, he went once and got autographs from all the Tigers/England players, photos taken with them etc. Guess where he prefers to go now....
Thats whats wrong with the Club. No connection with the rank and file supporter. All experience days are £70 + vat - way out of the reach of most supporters these days.
Get the players mingeling with the supporters again. Get them pulling pints in the Rodber. Get the joy back.Yes, I know the Sponsors need their pound of flesh, but every player???????
Terrace 'B' next to Mav, Shaddo, AB, Jeremy and Spud.
Mr Robson met with us at least 6 years ago, before he was on the board...er, thats it, apart from, usually informal/chance meetings around the ground. Chris W, Brian Facer etc are always willing to stop and chat, as is UK, Leon and Dr Jon.
However, these are not formal meetings, more like quick chats. The SSC is not a pressure group - not big enough for a start.
As for whats wrong - well, even as the chairman of the SSC, these days I don't get excited about winning or losing. I'm even considering my options for next season.
My Girlfriends young son has split loyaties between Tigers and Saints. At Saints he gets to watch the game. Even I don't know where to take him to get players autographs. At Tigers, he went once and got autographs from all the Tigers/England players, photos taken with them etc. Guess where he prefers to go now....
Thats whats wrong with the Club. No connection with the rank and file supporter. All experience days are £70 + vat - way out of the reach of most supporters these days.
Get the players mingeling with the supporters again. Get them pulling pints in the Rodber. Get the joy back.Yes, I know the Sponsors need their pound of flesh, but every player???????
Terrace 'B' next to Mav, Shaddo, AB, Jeremy and Spud.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Alan B (IP Logged)
Date: 01/02/2013 19:25
unwashed 
mind you, last time someone wore a suit in c block
a clearance kick landed on 4 of these
mind you, last time someone wore a suit in c block
a clearance kick landed on 4 of these
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
Date: 01/02/2013 19:43
To be honest Beef I used SSC as an example simply cos there isnt anything else to refer to...
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: riverlodge (IP Logged)
Date: 04/02/2013 10:20
others reflecting on us and our wee debate:
Saries debate our suffering
with no gloating i should add.
Saries debate our suffering
with no gloating i should add.
Re: News: The Rumsfeld Defence
Posted by: Matthew (IP Logged)
Date: 10/02/2013 09:25
Tigers now observing the debate too - again without gloating (though odd-shaped vagaries does appear to miss the point).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:02:10:10:41:52 by Matthew.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:02:10:10:41:52 by Matthew.
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