Wasps v Saints Match Thread - Teams Up

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:21:11:26:45 by Saint Ted.

Team looks good. The battle of the back row is going to be key.
Delighted to see Freeman start. He and Sleights will need to be on their mettle against the Wasps back 3.

Certainly look a good team. With the weather conditions likely to be much better than last week I can see us playing a good day.

That's a great looking pack. Very strong but very mobile.

Oooff, quite a team, who isn’t in our 23 we’d want?

Nanson and Wilkins getting minutes at Bedford. I’d think many of us thought they’d be in and around the first time but given the start we’ve had, no rush I guess.

Skosan has arrived but I guess it’s just too soon to throw him in the deep end.

Guess the squad is in a pretty good place, especially given we have our first fallow week next weekend.

Each of those changes strengthens the starting line up imo. Hope the weather is better and our attack fires. COYS!!!

Wow. For me, that is quite possibly the best 23 we have ever fielded in the Boyd era!

Should be a cracking game. Wasps were impressive in blowing Bristol away.

We can't afford to give away any soft tries as Wasps are dangerous enough without gifts. If we can do this we've got a decent chance. COYS!!!

As I said elsewhere, if Boyd's tendency to change the tight heads at half time is to continue, I would prefer Painter to start, as I think Paul Hill has demonstrated how much more mobile he is, and in the last period, that can be key.

But apart from that I don't think I would raise an eyebrow at any of it.

Including giving Woody a weekend off and subbing him with Courtney! Not a bad swap.

We need to be out of sight before our bogey man Gopparth comes on …

5 pointer statement performance incoming

I do agree with Longers about Hill and Painter and personally I’d rather Basset was in the squad as hes always been a pain against us

Quote:

TommySaint
5 pointer statement performance incoming

but for who?

Quote:

TommySaint
5 pointer statement performance incoming

With the quality of our selected 23, on a firm pitch with forecast of a dry day, I can see both teams trying to play their fast expansive games. I have a feeling that we could really do a number on them on Sunday, so I agree, if it clicks for us and we hit our straps, as well as our man in the line out, we could be leaving on Sunday with the full 5 points.

C. O. Y. S. !!

Betting odds very even with Wasps slight favourites. Best odds for a Saints win 11/8. Best odds for Wasps to win 3/4.

Oddschecker showing odds shortening for Saints and Wasps drifting. Possibly suggesting the bookies like the saints team following team announcements.

Get the mind set right and Sunday afternoon could be very enjoyable.

Quote:

Saint Maul
Betting odds very even with Wasps slight favourites. Best odds for a Saints win 11/8. Best odds for Wasps to win 3/4.
Oddschecker showing odds shortening for Saints and Wasps drifting. Possibly suggesting the bookies like the saints team following team announcements.

Or that Saints backers are more flash with the cash. Follow the cash rather than sentiment. ?………..but I rarely win against the bookies ☹️

Wasps are missing a number of their best players: Launchbury, Willis, Fekitoa, Barbeary, Odogwu.

So, like the Exeter game, this is a massive opportunity to get an away win against a potential top 4 rival. So this is an 8-10 pointer game we need to target.

Robson is their biggest remaining game-changer. So we need to disrupt Robson and put him off his game. Tie him in on the floor. Ruffle his feathers when he makes a mistake. Put pressure on any kicks from the base of the ruck. Take every opportunity for legitimate big hits. Disrupt the breakdown and counter-ruck so the ball isn't presented cleanly. Make him waste his energy running from side to side of the pitch. Basically, cut off the head of the snake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:09:09:55:37 by Saint Maul.

Quote:

Saint Maul
Wasps are missing a number of their best players: Launchbury, Willis, Fekitoa, Barbeary, Odogwu.
So, like the Exeter game, this is a massive opportunity to get an away win against a potential top 4 rival. So this is an 8-10 pointer game we need to target.

Robson is their biggest remaining game-changer. So we need to disrupt Robson and put him off his game. Tie him in on the floor. Ruffle his feathers when he makes a mistake. Put pressure on any kicks from the base of the ruck. Take every opportunity for legitimate big hits. Disrupt the breakdown and counter-ruck so the ball isn't presented cleanly. Make him waste his energy running from side to side of the pitch. Basically, cut off the head of the snake.

I thought their team looks really good, they have a good squad do ole wasps.

Quote:

SaintsAsh
I thought their team looks really good, they have a good squad do ole wasps.

I agree they have a very impressive bench this weekend

I see we’ve gone with a 6:2 split again (whilst acknowledging we do have Paul Hill covering fly half and centre). I can understand this when we feel we’re going to be up against a knarly big pack and the weather favours a forwards oriented game, but I’m hoping for a running try-fest today! I wonder the logic behind this, are our forwards not fit enough?

Great start, hands have been superb.

We've not looked after the ball at all since the first 20.

An exciting but frustrating first half.

Set piece is killing us. Sadly not been addressed in the off season.

Need to be a bit more clever in this game. Losing some easy balls which then drops pressure back onto us at times

Sounds like lineout and @#$%& are not functioning

Lomani being targeted in the wing. Poor management having 2 backs on the bench.

Scrum is imploding.

2 scrums in a row totally changing this match, really need to step up and get a foot back into this game. Losing Proctor so early has really had an influence on this game

Just can't get any momentum.

Really need the leaders need to stand up and reign in the ill discipline, far too many stupid pens.

Some really stupid penalties bro g given away which are killing us for territory.

Second best to everything currently.

On a + side, Freeman has looked very sharp today.

We’ve lost our way
Playing like 15 guys who just met this morning

Urgency control game management
Come on saints

Quote:

saint krige
On a + side, Freeman has looked very sharp today.

But no one supporting him

Red all day!!! mK totally wrong!! Straight to the head and no mitigation RED!

Better

Come on saints get it together
Let’s win

Wasps so much more energetic.

Waller poor since coming on.

Our players give too many stupid penalties away. These poor scrappy victories have shown here

Don't deserve to win with our discipline unfortunately.

Really need to work out why the hell we look like world beaters for 20 mins then fall off completely. A worrying mental trend.

Poor 2nd half again! Poor discipline, can’t look after the ball.

Quote:

saint krige
.....Wasps so much more energetic......

So much more intelligent.

A hooker off the pitch for Wasps and yet we do not kick the ball into touch, but to a running full back. Just one example of a lack of brain power.

Quote:

....Waller.....

Another penalty machine

Own worst enemy- this game was there for the taking

Killing ourselves here. Deserve nothing out of this. I don’t even think wasps are that good. We haven’t fired a shot today.

The forwards' discipline is literally a joke.

We need to pick Danny Hobbs over Alex Waller who is just a one man penalty machine!

Totally inept performance giving away penalty after penalty well within Goppeth range. Didn’t learn from the Irish game anything. Take the ball 60 yards down the field to give it up easily again

Mental frailty
Lack of game management

And for the first time of consideration
Fitness

Poor, really poor, after such a bright first 15/20'.
They missed 2/3 kicks too which flatters the scoreline even more.
Discipline is appalling.

Freeman looked great, Mitchell played well, Augustus showed glimpses.

" I think the Saints coaching team will be a little disappointed with some of the errors made...." understatement of the season so far from Ben Kay.

I am now officially looking for a fundamental change to the way in which the team is coached. We have tolerated poor decision making and penalties from repeat offenders for far too long and today we have seen the result.

Enough. At least three players need a new orifice ripping!

For those complaining the lack of Saints games on BT
Perhaps there is the answer

Quote:

Deesaint
For those complaining the lack of Saints games on BT
Perhaps there is the answer

Was just thinking that. Also, even I don't want to watch that dross.

Really poor second half and perhaps lucky to get the BP but at least we rallied at the end. I think we lost a huge amount when Proctor went off - he's by far our best player at the moment.

Thought some of our forwards weren't working hard enough or focussed enough. Set piece and discipline were really poor - do we need to start Painter, drop Waller (people will say he big bought the key penalty last week but he's making far too many silly mistakes for a player of his experience) start Coles (lineout improved when he came on).

Thought Biggar could have controlled the game better but he was on the back foot and Robson was tactically fantastic.

A few individual switch offs in defence - Lomani, Matavesi, Waller - really cost us.

Wasps were clinical minus their goal kicking that with the set piece was the difference for me. (Definite red card and very poor from CMK but don't think it would have made a big difference given how we played during the sin bin period).

Lots of potential though and some great moments, carries and better at break down in first half - just need to sort out set piece, hope Proctor and Furbank are ok and drop those who just aren't performing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:10:17:06:55 by Saintfanh.

Quote:

saint krige
Poor, really poor, after such a bright first 15/20'.
They missed 2/3 kicks too which flatters the scoreline even more.
Discipline is appalling.

Freeman looked great, Mitchell played well, Augustus showed glimpses.

We did look good for the first twenty but sadly after that all the age old problems came flooding back. This is a Wasps team missing a few stars as well. I thought Mitchell was bossed by Robson all game. A bit of a reality check. Lucky they missed so many kicks so at least it was a losing bonus point.

Well that was really poor, I’ll just leave that there. Not sure if a week off is what we need as we’ve had a whole pre season to work on the basics.

Just watching the yellow card incident back. Last week we had a TMO who seemed determined to penalise Saints in the last minute but who was over-ruled by the referee aided and abetted by his touch judges one of whom of course was Wayne Barnes. This week we have head contact with a partially swinging arm which the TMO feels is more than a yellow card. However, CMK appears to have no meaningful discussion with his assistants and over-rules the TMO. Consistency ?

Proctor at 13 we win
Hutch at 13 we don’t

Hutch never crashes into contact or drives back in the tackle, a 13 has to. No magic can negate that.

Quote:

Aberavon Wizard
Just watching the yellow card incident back. Last week we had a TMO who seemed determined to penalise Saints in the last minute but who was over-ruled by the referee aided and abetted by his touch judges one of whom of course was Wayne Barnes. This week we have head contact with a partially swinging arm which the TMO feels is more than a yellow card. However, CMK appears to have no meaningful discussion with his assistants and over-rules the TMO. Consistency ?

CMK asked his assistants, they offered no counter.
CMK is the ref, not the TMO..so there is no 'over rule'.
The arm hits the ball first, albeit 'only just'..it could have gone either way, it went yellow...nothing really to discuss



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:10:17:51:11 by Hymenoptera.

Losing Procter and Furbank seemed to change the game.
I’m a fan of Dingwall, but not his best game.
A week off next week to sort out our issues. 🙏

5 minutes from Sam Matevesi probably sums up our performances so far this season (not picking on him particularly but thought it a good example), lovely tip on to Augustus and has the wherewithal to follow up for the off load and score a really nice try. Then gets sold a dummy when he had defenders covering outside and they race in to equalise. Some really good stuff and some really daft stuff including some really daft pens. Alex W has become a bit of penalty machine and a liability unfortunately.

Quote:

TommySaint
5 pointer statement performance incoming

Fair play to Tommy for getting it spot on. Four for Wasps and one for Saints.

Very disappointing but that’s the life and times of a Saints fan

I’m not sure any team on earth will win rugby matches with those levels of indiscipline, and from senior players to boot


Alex Wallers performance off the bench was a total disgrace. If I was coach I would drop him immediately, call up Manny Iyogun. At least he won’t let us down. I’m not interested in apologies, you’re dropped for the next 2 games at least. If you work hard in training to show discipline then you might get back in. If you don’t, then you’re being let go. We are not carrying senior players who let the team down. Your ability right now is questionable at this level, if you can’t even keep basic discipline then you’re gone for good.

Similarly Paul Hill, you’re dropped. Shameful performance at the scrum not using your brain, you’re an international. You’re dropped.

Similarly Dave Ribbans, shocking penalty count. I don’t care that you meant well but it’s not good enough. You’re dropped for Coles.


We don’t have the time to waste with players on very good money and with plenty of experience whose indiscipline stifles any chance for the team to get some momentum into the game.

Quote:

ajack

Quote:

TommySaint
5 pointer statement performance incoming

Fair play to Tommy for getting it spot on. Four for Wasps and one for Saints.

If I made that comment I’d be told I was ruining the board and causing confrontation blah blah, no doubt that won’t be forthcoming

But you’re a good old boy or something



My thoughts are in the post above

Front row are not premiership standard.
Lack of energy all round.
Very disappointing.
Tigers must be quaking in their boots

Quote:

Longers
" I think the Saints coaching team will be a little disappointed with some of the errors made...." understatement of the season so far from Ben Kay.
I am now officially looking for a fundamental change to the way in which the team is coached. We have tolerated poor decision making and penalties from repeat offenders for far too long and today we have seen the result.

Enough. At least three players need a new orifice ripping!

Perhaps bring Paul Tupai back for a short intense training programme on how to aggressively get on the front foot

Quote:

Deesaint

Quote:

Longers
" I think the Saints coaching team will be a little disappointed with some of the errors made...." understatement of the season so far from Ben Kay.
I am now officially looking for a fundamental change to the way in which the team is coached. We have tolerated poor decision making and penalties from repeat offenders for far too long and today we have seen the result.

Enough. At least three players need a new orifice ripping!

Perhaps bring Paul Tupai back for a short intense training programme on how to aggressively get on the front foot

I recall an interview with Phil Dowson last season and he said how they were "asking the forwards to......" and I'm screaming at the Televison "they shouldn't need asking, either they know or they need telling!"

Too bloody soft by half!

Despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth in some quarters I’m relatively sanguine about that result. Can’t win them all, however much we’d like to, and a losing bonus point is a fair result from a game where we were decidedly second best in that second half.

If Umaga had kicked his shots at goal we wouldn’t have had a look in.

The yellow card should have been red.

Tough intro to the Prem for Slomani. Augustus is going to be a star.

I hope Proctors injury isn’t too lserious/ long term.

Thank the stars we have a bye week to regroup and work on stuff.

PS Imagine my surprise that TommySaint is back sharing the boon of his wisdom with us so soon after his latest assertion he was leaving the board and wouldn’t be posting for the foreseeable. Imagine that. Like an emotionally incontinent teenager that comes back to slam the door again just in case you didn’t notice the first strop.

PS 👍 my thought exactly

Quote:

higgy365
Despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth in some quarters I’m relatively sanguine about that result. Can’t win them all, however much we’d like to, and a losing bonus point is a fair result from a game where we were decidedly second best in that second half.
If Umaga had kicked his shots at goal we wouldn’t have had a look in.

The yellow card should have been red.

Tough intro to the Prem for Slomani. Augustus is going to be a star.

I hope Proctors injury isn’t too lserious/ long term.

Thank the stars we have a bye week to regroup and work on stuff.

PS Imagine my surprise that TommySaint is back sharing the boon of his wisdom with us so soon after his latest assertion he was leaving the board and wouldn’t be posting for the foreseeable. Imagine that. Like an emotionally incontinent teenager that comes back to slam the door again just in case you didn’t notice the first strop.

I’ve had PMs telling me to keep posting and ignore the grumpy old farts. Albeit I will do very occasionally.

I know you all stick together and have double standards, it’s just a game and it’s funny to see. I don’t mind the joshing on views, keep pouring it on Ajack, I think it makes the message board more entertaining.


And yes those players deserve an almighty rollicking, it was that bad



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:10:18:34:10 by TommySaint.

Quote:

Hymenoptera

Quote:

Aberavon Wizard
Just watching the yellow card incident back. Last week we had a TMO who seemed determined to penalise Saints in the last minute but who was over-ruled by the referee aided and abetted by his touch judges one of whom of course was Wayne Barnes. This week we have head contact with a partially swinging arm which the TMO feels is more than a yellow card. However, CMK appears to have no meaningful discussion with his assistants and over-rules the TMO. Consistency ?

CMK asked his assistants, they offered no counter.
CMK is the ref, not the TMO..so there is no 'over rule'.
The arm hits the ball first, albeit 'only just'..it could have gone either way, it went yellow...nothing really to discuss

Ha, thats what comes of posting when angry ! Yes, of course the ref is the final arbiter - my query was the lack of input from his assistants and the fact that multiple replays seemed to indicate that the TMO's interpretation of both the incident and the rules was more correct than the referee but that of course is with my Saints hat on. I'm not a fan of players being carded for innocuous seat belt tackles but this was a swinging arm which made direct contact to the head which in todays game is an offence. Mitchell was not going down and by his own words there was no mitigation apparent to CMK. In simple terms the referee was satsified that all the conditions were there for the ultimate sanction of a red card but then decided that he did not fancy actually giving one. All fine and well, and I would agree the tackle was not malicious but everyone is looking for consistency and I think that many Premiership officials would have given the red card. Not that any of this would have changed the course of the game as the self-destruct button had long been pressed by that time !

Tommy you are entitled to your views but we don't want it rambed down our throats but you can't seem to understand that

Quote:

TommySaint

Quote:

ajack

Quote:

TommySaint
5 pointer statement performance incoming

Fair play to Tommy for getting it spot on. Four for Wasps and one for Saints.

If I made that comment I’d be told I was ruining the board and causing confrontation blah blah, no doubt that won’t be forthcoming

But you’re a good old boy or something



My thoughts are in the post above

To be honest, you really can't complain when someone refers back to a post like that after the way the game actually went.
Even more so as it wasn't done in a confrontational way, I actually thought it was a gently amusing reply.
Whereas you have made a (small) personal dig at Ajack.

Re the card, a neutral (Exeter supporting) friend messaged me that he thought CMK pushed back against the steer the TMO was giving him as a reaction to missing it. Politically, I doubt it’ll be picked up by the citing officer.

PS “grumpy old fart” sounds like a personal attack despite your protestations that isn’t your vibe, TommySaint. Yet another example where what you do and what you say are entirely different things. Weak.

Quote:

batty
Tommy you are entitled to your views but we don't want it rambed down our throats but you can't seem to understand that

I can't see where he's exactly rammed it down anyone's throat. If you don't like it, ignore it? I don't understand the intolerance on this board that everyone is always offended by something (two people in particular). There's clearly a double-standard on the forum amongst some regulars, but they are unable to see it.

I actually smirked at Ajack's reply, making bold predictions is going to provoke a light-hearted fun poke. Embrace it.

[quote higgy365]Despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth in some quarters I’m relatively sanguine about that result. Can’t win them all, however much we’d like to, and a losing bonus point is a fair result from a game where we were decidedly second best in that second half.

If Umaga had kicked his shots at goal we wouldn’t have had a look in.



If that was a one off hic-cup I would have a tendency to agree with you
But it’s not
That had echos of previous poor performances written all over it

My problem is
How can it be fixed
How do we stop the mental switch off
How do we catch a ball
How do we stop getting on the wrong side of the ref
How do we play as a team with energy and focus
How do we manage a game without trying to think we can score from everywhere
How do we control possession
How do we build scores
How do we win scrums/lineouts

Same by old questions same old performance

What is the catalyst that creates change

Quote:

saint krige

Quote:

batty
Tommy you are entitled to your views but we don't want it rambed down our throats but you can't seem to understand that

I can't see where he's exactly rammed it down anyone's throat. If you don't like it, ignore it? I don't understand the intolerance on this board that everyone is always offended by something (two people in particular). There's clearly a double-standard on the forum amongst some regulars, but they are unable to see it.

I actually smirked at Ajack's reply, making bold predictions is going to provoke a light-hearted fun poke. Embrace it.

+ 1

Why reply
Why let it get under your skin
Why invite a endless dialogue of tosh
You know it will happen

Just don’t feed it

Think the penalty count finally caught up with Us.
So many players are just not at the races. Waller should not be in 23 imo. Some forward play is just loose.
Loss of Proctor significant In back line.
Freeman best of back 3 today. Sleightholme looks well off pace of game. Lomani is a 9 or maybe FB not a winger and was found wanting. Coaches are always selecting players who are not wingers as wingers.
So many questions on approach.
Onwards and a break.

Quote:

saint krige

Quote:

batty
Tommy you are entitled to your views but we don't want it rambed down our throats but you can't seem to understand that

I can't see where he's exactly rammed it down anyone's throat. If you don't like it, ignore it? I don't understand the intolerance on this board that everyone is always offended by something (two people in particular). There's clearly a double-standard on the forum amongst some regulars, but they are unable to see it.

I actually smirked at Ajack's reply, making bold predictions is going to provoke a light-hearted fun poke. Embrace it.

Exactly.
There is a gang of grumpy old farts on here that try to shut down anything they don’t agree with.
Tommy and many others have opinions that are as valid as anyone else’s.
Do we all need to have a family member who played for the club to have an opinion?
Do they not see how hypocritical they are?

Quote:

higgy365
Re the card, a neutral (Exeter supporting) friend messaged me that he thought CMK pushed back against the steer the TMO was giving him as a reaction to missing it. Politically, I doubt it’ll be picked up by the citing officer.
PS “grumpy old fart” sounds like a personal attack despite your protestations that isn’t your vibe, TommySaint. Yet another example where what you do and what you say are entirely different things. Weak.

Someone else making a collective reference to a clique on here isn’t personal. You’re a bright guy, you know that.

Your comment is rather rich when you’ve personally attacked me with zero provocation in this thread.

I am never personal. I’ve no problem with you, Ajack, Longers from a personal perspective. I’m sure you’re fine. As I said above I’ve no problem with Ajack taking the Mickey, it’s all fun and games.

I have an issue with a bunch of you moaning about me but displaying identical behaviour that you complain about. There is nothing worse in this world than hypocrisy, you behave like bullying kids in the playground.




Thankfully we have a break and Worcester so some of these players have time to work on their discipline, it’s killing the team.

Quote:

Awaywin
We need to be out of sight before our bogey man Gopparth comes on …

Sorry he made your worst fears come true…
Poor quality game from both sides. We just managed to come out on top.

I’m sure you Saints all wish Gaskell a speedy recovery, as Waspies do for Proctor. Biggar looked crocked too, when he missed the conversion.

Both teams will be working on their penalty count this week!

Good luck for the rest of the season.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:10:21:17:30 by Buzzer.

I also thought Sleightholm was a bit off the pace but I think I saw (it was the other side of the pitch) him puking on side of the pitch early in the second half so maybe he had/has a bit of a tummy issue.

And this is why I decided to give up Moderating this Group & only watch from the sidelines until things change - it's so tiresome & boring that one person can ruin everything for others & not understand it. I just don't get it.

It doesn't matter how many names, warnings or bans.

The cries of I'm done here etc etc are now so many that we just laugh because a couple of weeks later
we all know the lure of addiction to be "I'm right" is too strong...

One person will always ruin what could be a very good discussion group. Sadly only one person can sort this problem...but then pride's an amazing thing to admit it's your fault & leave the group

Quote:

TommySaint

Quote:

ajack

Quote:

TommySaint
5 pointer statement performance incoming

Fair play to Tommy for getting it spot on. Four for Wasps and one for Saints.

If I made that comment I’d be told I was ruining the board and causing confrontation blah blah, no doubt that won’t be forthcoming

But you’re a good old boy or something

My thoughts are in the post above

Yeah that is true. It does feel that some revel in our poor performances.

Wasps the better team today, I do feel like we would have won today had Proctor not been injured albeit another win with a poor performance.

Hopefully we can bounce back.

It seems to me that you are obviously taking sides.
I would rather let Tommy, Krige and whoever have their say, than be shut down by the Ajack/Longers gang.
Maybe moderating isn’t for you if you can’t treat people fairly.
Just my opinion.

Quote:

Happywifehappylife
And this is why I decided to give up Moderating this Group & only watch from the sidelines until things change - it's so tiresome & boring that one person can ruin everything for others & not understand it. I just don't get it.
It doesn't matter how many names, warnings or bans.

The cries of I'm done here etc etc are now so many that we just laugh because a couple of weeks later
we all know the lure of addiction to be "I'm right" is too strong...

One person will always ruin what could be a very good discussion group. Sadly only one person can sort this problem...but then pride's an amazing thing to admit it's your fault & leave the group

Probably a good thing you gave up in that case.

How can people not just ignore the posts they don't like/agree with? No one forces you to reply. You can't imply others have no willpower and then retort by exploding at every post Tommy or someone else posts.

Quote:

Iamasaint
It seems to me that you are obviously taking sides.
I would rather let Tommy, Krige and whoever have their say, than be shut down by the Ajack/Longers gang.
Maybe moderating isn’t for you if you can’t treat people fairly.
Just my opinion.

Thank you for "just your opinion".

There's a difference between debate & personal abuse.

I run an online group with 27500 active, positive debating members. Oh....& it's won many awards for well-being, suicide awareness & mental health support so I think I might know how to treat people fairly :-)



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:10:22:22:07 by Happywifehappylife.

What abuse? Show me.

I made one post about our teams discipline and 2 responses were to antagonise. I don’t mind because I see it as banter but I will call out the hypocrisy.

Quote:

Happywifehappylife

Quote:

Iamasaint
It seems to me that you are obviously taking sides.
I would rather let Tommy, Krige and whoever have their say, than be shut down by the Ajack/Longers gang.
Maybe moderating isn’t for you if you can’t treat people fairly.
Just my opinion.

Thank you for "just your opinion".

There's a difference between debate & personal abuse.

I run an online group with 27500 active, debating members. Oh....& it's won many awards for well-being & support so I think I might know how to treat people fairly :-)

What’s the group, out of interest? Well done on the awards.

my day job is to bring new drugs to market that cure PTSD, addiction, depression and other deep trauma. That isn’t relevant, you’ve created a bogeyman in your mind on this subject and our clouded. I will buy you a beer so you can then post on here your view of me having met me in real life. Whatever that may be.

How about that?

Quote:

Happywifehappylife
it's so tiresome & boring that one person can ruin everything for others & not understand it.

Typically they understand but don't care, it's what's described as vulnerable narcissism. The sort of oversensitivity, egocentricity and search for validation that you talk about is a type of behaviour that thrives on Social Media platforms where it wouldn't be tolerated in normal social situations/"IRL".

The results of research using the Hypersensitive Narcissism Scale on test group participants on Social Media are interesting and the insights into how participants sublimate their behaviour "IRL" whilst empowering it on Social Media are fascinating. I honestly think it may be decades before we fully come to terms with and begin to address the society wide damaging effect of Social Media.

Says the person who supports another team but comes onto another message board on a daily basis to troll one poster who hasn’t said a word against them?


Just have a look at yourself


Before me it was Eif Jones. The most rife and dangerous behaviour online is actually bullying, not what you refer to.

You’re grown men, get a frigging life. Live and let live. Argue or don’t. Agree or disagree.


You are not God and you are not perfect.

Please stop it.

Why did Proctor and Furbank go off?

Alright but passing shot to Marovian

I’m personal friends with 2 current Sarries players. I’m also friends with your legend Schalk, so maybe they like narcissists or maybe judging peoples character based purely on a rugby forum is ill advised? Again, I’ve never said anything about you. In the last week I’ve been told I can’t have friends by Batty, a narcissist and some character assassination by you, Higgy says I’m an emotionally incontinent teenager… the list goes on. I’ve never said anything personal about any of you lot and I’m the bad guy?

give me a frigging break and good luck to you all


onto the next boogeyman

Quote:

Santiago
Please stop it.
Why did Proctor and Furbank go off?

Proctor was a hand injury I think. Not sure on Furbank, seemed to be no mention of the reason.

The 6/2 split is always a risk.

And there was me thinking this post was about the match instead of children having personal spats and comparing the size of their manhoods!!!!!!!!

Having now played 4 games what has been very obvious is that we can try and play in a Southern Hemisphere rugby style which looks great on the day but our youngsters still have a long way to progress when we meet teams that are prepared to bash everything in sight and put that extra 25% effort in. We lost two players today in Proctor and Furbank and it was downhill from there.
There was little to no leaders on our side today and it was obvious by his absence that we missed Tom Wood in that line up to steady things.
Penalties were ridiculous as were the set pieces at times which did nothing but put us immediately back under pressure having gained much territory only to fluff it all at the last minute.
Not a great day to watch but I’d be more worried about coming up against Quinn’s, Tigers and Saracens in the future having seen the performances they put in this weekend, all who showed how you come back from being behind with a bit of strength

TommySaint, for clarification HWHL talked about a specific "type" of poster and that's what I responded to. My thesis is on group dynamics on Social Media platforms so I find this sort of thing interesting.

Have you been Trolled by me? I made a little joke the other day about being able to fund a club with the £1s from every time you've said you'd leave. I'd hesitate to say you're being over-sensitive as that would make it all about you again but take it in good faith that I thought you might find it funny.

It's all right mate you just take it easy. You don't need to try and impress me or for me to validate you. Just be happy being yourself

I’m very cool with myself, HLHW was referring to me so of course your comments were about me and I will defend myself.

Go back to 2018 and you’ll see a thread about ‘one poster’ which was Eif Jones. Granted he was controversial at times about saints but never said anything personal about anyone on here. He was disgracefully bullied on a weekly basis with zero moderation to stop it. He unfortunately passed away a year or so ago and some posters on here should and probably did feel ashamed of their behaviour towards him.

History repeats itself and just watch, in a years time there will be the same thing about another poster. When I had a hiatus Krige was jumped on by the same gang which was shameful. Hopefully they leave him alone, he’s a very very good bloke who loves the club. The clue therefore is that the individual poster each time isn’t the whole problem, it’s the clique and their bullying mentality.

It’s surprising of HLHW to talk about mental health ability, when he quit he left a long diatribe post about me calling me a bloodsucking vampire or words to that effect. He would also dig at me regularly despite being a moderator. At the time I thought it was unhinged and given he now knows I mea culpa’d some personal issues at that very moment, he might want to reflect on that instead of doubling down.


I will watch out in the future for comments by interesting posters like Maul, MarchingIn, Statesman, Krige, Dee, Ash, Pyfyy and Ajack with some I’ve probably forgotten. Posting isn’t worth the ear ache, the clique are just not cool and not my type of people. Horses for courses, life moves on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:11:00:00:02 by TommySaint.

Tommy I agree with a lot you say. It is probably not worth explaining it as much as you do. I have fallen into that trap. Your positive about the Saints and some others aren't so positive, they would say realistic. Both have some truth to it.

It is your opinion and I think you should still have it, I recommend you just do less of it buddy. Have your say and let it lie or the thread gets taken over by the Grumpies 😜

I thought we looked decent and dangerous in the first 20 mins and then ran out of steam.

We were unlucky not to have got a reasonable lead. If we had got a lead our play deserved the game could have turned out differently.

And that is why it is so frustrating
20 minutes play showing what they can achieve
Followed by 60 minutes of dross

It just has to be in their heads
They don’t take the pitch to play badly
They want to win
They have trained to win

Not sure I know the answer
Do we need someone in the coaching setup that can bring that focus and be mental strength into the team

The excuse ‘it’s a young team’ passed some time ago

From our perspective, the whole dynamic of the game changed when Proctor went off. His replacement was nowhere near as effective. I hope the lad's hand injury isn't too serious.

Then when Waller came on, we knew that some penalties would start coming our way. If Umaga hadn't left his kicking boots in the changing room, we'd have been out of bonus point range by the end.

Now all we have to do is beat Chiefs next week, and we can leapfrog Saints into third place!

Wasps supporter and ex-player since 1964

Comment deleted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:11:08:55:10 by Longers.

Can we cut all the personl stuff and get back to the central issue of Saints form.

Line out still a big problem.
Front row not good enough
Players playing out of their 'natural' position.
Simply daft penalties.
Inexperienced back line.
Lack of effective leadership.
Inability to put in a full eighty minute performance.

Leicester have gone back to basics with Borthwick, not pretty but effective.
Exeter back on song now they have read the new rules.
Saracens doing what Saracens do.....yawn.
Quins playing without fear.
Saints sloppy and rudderless..........we are better than that !

I wonder whether a week off at this stage is now useful (more training time to fix issues) or they'd be better having another game this weekend to try and fix things that way?

Proctor is definitely a bit of a glue player so losing him wasn't ideal. I know Lomani has played some back three before but not the ideal introduction for him! Not that the final conversion made any difference in the end but with the 6:2 split and squad selected we were relying on Furbank as cover at 10 but he went off before Biggar got his knock, risky stuff.

Empty vessels make the most sound.

Could the insecure please restrict themselves to one post per subject?

Is that yours 🤣🤣

We clearly list our way when Proctor went off and commentators said it was a hand injury so hopefully the week off will give him a chance to mend.

Wasps should have been out of sight if Umaga had nailed his kicks and that probably shows why he’s slipped off the England radar and it does surprise me that Wasps select him ahead of Jimmy Gopperth who rarely lets anyone down and often pulls the rabbit out of the hat. Bit of a Smyler in that respect I think.

Quote:

Deesaint
And that is why it is so frustrating
20 minutes play showing what they can achieve
Followed by 60 minutes of dross

It just has to be in their heads
They don’t take the pitch to play badly
They want to win
They have trained to win

Not sure I know the answer
Do we need someone in the coaching setup that can bring that focus and be mental strength into the team

The excuse ‘it’s a young team’ passed some time ago

This nails it for me. I had a really good feeling coming into this game, call it blind optimism if you will, but with a fast dry pitch I really felt we could have taken them to the cleaners. The game started well for us and IMHO it turned when Proctor was forced to leave the field. It was the catalyst for a downward spiral of bad decisions and lack of discipline that ultimately cost us the game.

We now have a week off and I would hope some real soul searching goes on in the changing room and we come away from this knowing what we have to do to become emotionally and mentally less fragile and deal with any adversities the game can throw at them. I live in hope.

In other news it seems our boys at Bedford really got stuck in on Saturday helping them to turn over their near neighbours Ampthill with Manny getting on the score sheet. From reports from work colleagues both Nansen and Wilkins had good games so looking forward to them putting on the Saints jersey for the first time.

As to the Tom saga, I was one of those that messaged Tom to ask him to keep posting as I don't get the hostility towards him. I myself post rarely these days because I don't want the drama of having to explain my posts and any attempt at humour they may contain to other posters who may take offence, as has happened in the past, because I don't tow the party line. I don't know Tom and have never met him, however I just take his posts at face value and either agree or disagree with them without needing to get personal. I get that some of the old time posters get irked that a young whippersnapper with new fangled ideas and mannerisms can occasionally rock the "Good Ship Marching On Forum" but I have yet to see him be demonstrably hostile towards anyone who hasn't attacked him first. He can come over bullish in his beliefs, but so what? If you want an echo chamber an open online forum isn't the place for you. Looking above he has been called out , psycho analysed and ridiculed for daring to be different, however not one of his detractors can show where he has been rude or offensive to anyone. On line forums are not like writing the letter of the week to the editor of the Times on velum using a quill and ink, whereby you have a few days grace before someone can counter your opinion. People can post on these forums immediately from any place around the globe. They come from all walks of life and experience, to expect everyone to treat it as some kind of holy ground that you dare not sully by deigning to have the wrong opinion is IMHO ridiculous.

Love him or loathe him, agree with him or disagree him, it's up to you but those are your issues and yours alone and what spoils it for many is the constant sniping from those who feel aggrieved that a guy who is Saints through and through posts from the heart but doesn't do so, as if he was in some cigar filled room at a good old boys members club where he has to be seen to be the right type of good old boy to be accepted.

Anyways, there more to life than the t'internet, I'm off to tie my message to Santa for a couple of monster props, to a carrier pigeons leg, so we can really start to boss the scrums once again. Toodle pip.

C. O. Y. S. !!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:11:11:03:26 by Pyffy.

Quote:

Dragonboy
We clearly list our way when Proctor went off and commentators said it was a hand injury so hopefully the week off will give him a chance to mend.
Wasps should have been out of sight if Umaga had nailed his kicks and that probably shows why he’s slipped off the England radar and it does surprise me that Wasps select him ahead of Jimmy Gopperth who rarely lets anyone down and often pulls the rabbit out of the hat. Bit of a Smyler in that respect I think.

Gopperth is 38, so hardly the future. His body will need careful management too, they seem to utilise him very effectively tbh.

Well said Pyffy.

My word there is a lot to pick apart here.

Tommy....

If your going to post on here in a bullish manner that you do, the reality of the situation is that you are going to get flack from it, you are making a target for your own back between the way you post and your humble bragging. If your having to explain that your a nice guy, your doing something wrong. You're not endearing yourself to anyone by making more departure announcements than an airport. So post, don't post I don't care either way, but if someone calls you out it doesn't require you to make a bunch of wordy posts half of which don't have any relevance to anything and actually make you come across worse.

And as for saying there was no moderation on Eif posts, you know nothing at all about what was going on, not a thing, so don't pretend you do. You have zero idea of how many posts were deleted.

Okay maybe I should apologise for what I thought was a light hearted little response to his five pointer statement performance post.

What people have to remember is us boring old farts were bought up in a time when a few channels on the wireless was all we had for entertainment so we had to make our own. I must admit Teds comment about more departure announcements than an airport did make me chuckle.

I have no idea how old Ted is and don’t know him from Adam, but feel he would make a great honorary BOF.

Hi. First time poster so please be gentle.

I have been following the web page for about 15 years and always enjoyed the differing points of view and the informed discussion that takes place. I often learn about things that I didn’t know regarding injuries, wanderers and fringe players etc which enhances my Saints watching.

I must say that last season the constant bickering on the forum and personal debates that should be taken away from the forum got so wearing I didn’t visit for a while.

This season got off to a good start, but this thread has again partly descended into last years nonsense.

I would just ask that everyone respects other people’s right to an opinion (whatever nonsense we may think it is) and either puts a counter opinion or just begs to differ.

Let’s hope that we play better versus Worcester and the season picks up again.

Can everyone just stop childish back and forths and discuss the game? The only thing worse than Saints second half performance particularly from the front 5 (minus the last 10) is this thread! Can't everyone just apologize and move on.

Can only echo the above, so irritating when threads get so derailed.

Easy for people to pile on one person, and I understand why they do, but in fairness Tommy's first post on this thread was about rugby. Longers and a few others then provoke people into feeling they have to defend themselves (happened to me multiple times) and you went up with this nonsense.

Why can't people just ignore Tommy's posts if you don't like them? Problem solved!

Quote:

saint krige
Can only echo the above, so irritating when threads get so derailed.
Easy for people to pile on one person, and I understand why they do, but in fairness Tommy's first post on this thread was about rugby. Longers and a few others then provoke people into feeling they have to defend themselves (happened to me multiple times) and you went up with this nonsense.

Why can't people just ignore Tommy's posts if you don't like them? Problem solved!

Well I would appreciate you highlighting the points you're making. How am I shutting anyone down? Unless by asking such questions, they feel unable to reply? I really don't know.

My first comment on this thread, was concerning props.

My second was meant to be in support of your energy/Waller post. Perhaps it failed? Only you can tell me.

My third comment was aimed at the coaching team who put this side out, supposedly ready to play? I was and am dissatisfied.

My fourth was a follow up response.

Then both Lamasaint and Tommy come in with broad brush attacks on individuals. And on it went. Plenty of mentions, but no involvement from me.

I was really looking forward to your game with Wasps and had posted here to say that pack in particular was as strong as I had seen for a while for Saints. TBH I don't really get what's not working but Boyds insistence on playing a more SH type of team and style feels like a factor.
From the highlights the CMK yellow call was poor but sometimes you get those. Equally it's early in the season and tbh from the games so far I have no idea whose good and who isn't.

There's no doubt you've hugely talented players in your team though so it will be interesting to see how they continue to develop and some of your backs are a joy to watch in a similar vein to the Quins players. I think most successful teams have a spine around which their built. Not just a leadership group but players who drive standards, help pick the team up when they're down, etc I wonder who that would be for Saints now (not me saying they don't have it just saying I don't know)

Quote:

Longers

Quote:

saint krige
Can only echo the above, so irritating when threads get so derailed.
Easy for people to pile on one person, and I understand why they do, but in fairness Tommy's first post on this thread was about rugby. Longers and a few others then provoke people into feeling they have to defend themselves (happened to me multiple times) and you went up with this nonsense.

Why can't people just ignore Tommy's posts if you don't like them? Problem solved!

Well I would appreciate you highlighting the points you're making. How am I shutting anyone down? Unless by asking such questions, they feel unable to reply? I really don't know.

My first comment on this thread, was concerning props.

My second was meant to be in support of your energy/Waller post. Perhaps it failed? Only you can tell me.

My third comment was aimed at the coaching team who put this side out, supposedly ready to play? I was and am dissatisfied.

My fourth was a follow up response.

Then both Lamasaint and Tommy come in with broad brush attacks on individuals. And on it went. Plenty of mentions, but no involvement from me.

My point is that unnecessary barbs from people ends up meaning someone feels they have to defend themselves which leads to several posts that completely derail the thread.

I won't intervene/reply from now on to anyone derailing a thread. Its boring, narcissistic and I just cba.

Quote:

OldMarovian
I was really looking forward to your game with Wasps and had posted here to say that pack in particular was as strong as I had seen for a while for Saints. TBH I don't really get what's not working but Boyds insistence on playing a more SH type of team and style feels like a factor.
From the highlights the CMK yellow call was poor but sometimes you get those. Equally it's early in the season and tbh from the games so far I have no idea whose good and who isn't.

There's no doubt you've hugely talented players in your team though so it will be interesting to see how they continue to develop and some of your backs are a joy to watch in a similar vein to the Quins players. I think most successful teams have a spine around which their built. Not just a leadership group but players who drive standards, help pick the team up when they're down, etc I wonder who that would be for Saints now (not me saying they don't have it just saying I don't know)

Yeh agree with much of this. Personally I think the SH style can work (particularly now we've understood(!) we need a set piece even if it's not consistent yet) but I think you're spot on in terms of standards - who's enforcing them and what are the consequences when players particularly seniors players don't meet them?

Agree it's so great to see a more attacking style of play come through in Quins, Bristol and wasps and us when in form. Personally would rather lose playing exciting rugby than win through a more limited defensive game but I know most people would strongly disagree with that!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:11:16:59:12 by Saintfanh.

Gabriel Oghre has been cited for his swinging arm to Mitchell's head.

And quite right too. Said as much at the time, and also felt like the TMO was trying to steer CMK that way at the time.

Only thing that does surprise me is that they are publicly inferring CMK made the wrong call by going for yellow. If Oghre cops a ban, they can’t say he didn’t see it, just that he made a bad decision.

Too late to worry about what influence that may have had on the final result, of course (but gorge yourselves on buts and what ifs if so inclined- won’t change a thing)

Thought after the performance I’d give the site a wide birth, bloody glad I did, as exactly as I thought it would be! 😂

I thought we lost our shape when Proctor went off, more so when Furbank did, then the discipline in second half and we just couldn’t keep the ball, I think it was the 75min, before we managed to strong together more than 4 phases, and if you can’t do that and can’t win your line outs, you’re never gonna win a game.

Onwards and upwards to our next game!

Quote:

higgy365
Only thing that does surprise me is that they are publicly inferring CMK made the wrong call by going for yellow. If Oghre cops a ban, they can’t say he didn’t see it, just that he made a bad decision.

Isn't the same true on any case that is either appealed against or reviewed from yellow to red?

When all is said and done it is only someone's opinion with the evidence they have in front of them at the time.

You can appeal a court ruling or get a second medical opinion you will often see two experts in a certain field have differing opinions this sort of thing happens all the time.

It was always going to be a tight call and ref clearly said initial contact was with the ball, which it was, now if that actually alters anything as far as the laws are concerned I have no idea but that was the reason why he downgraded to a yellow from a red.

The TMO is getting very annoying. We've seen occasions where the TMO is attempting to guide the ref into making a more strict or lenient call.

Regardless of who it benefits, this should not be allowed.

I agree that the TMO is needed with so much going on. If the TMO spots something during the game I'm fine with it being relayed to the ref to later be reviewed. In my view this should be the end of the TMO's involvement. The TMO should only be allowed to confirm/ deny groundings, touch or incidents that are clearly measurable. They should not be allowed to comment or guide the ref into making any other decision, unless specifically asked by the ref.

I don’t have figures to hand but my perception remains that the vast majority of citings are for events that garnered a red at the time and so attract an automatic hearing, or are missed entirely but deemed red worthy. Yellows getting ‘upgraded’ are certainly not unheard of but relatively unusual.

Quote:

higgy365
Yellows getting ‘upgraded’ are certainly not unheard of but relatively unusual.

There have been 4 such occurrences this year so I wouldn't say it's unusual - perhaps the most high profile was Dave Ewers who had a yellow upgraded to a red and consequently missed the play off semi-final and final.

Watching the highlights; I just don't see how Waller can continue to put in shifts like this and still get picked.

Presumably he was dropped as captain because he's no longer a guaranteed starter?

Quote:

saint krige
Watching the highlights; I just don't see how Waller can continue to put in shifts like this and still get picked.
Presumably he was dropped as captain because he's no longer a guaranteed starter?

Do you think he has fully recovered from his injury? I know that may seem a little bizarre even for me,I know it was quite a little while ago, but I'm not sure we've seen a decent run of games from him since. Or is it his conditioning possibly?

Anyway, somethings definitely wrong there.

A lot of criticism of Alex Waller both here and elsewhere which is a little sad bearing in mind the time he has spent at The Gardens, not to mention 'that try'. AW was over-used by West and Mallinder and in my view never translated his experience and ability to step up to the next level which is a pity for the club and the player. For whatever reason he seems to attract the attention of the referee in a negative sense and as such the penalty count seems to mount up - he's not alone in this by any means but it just seems rather more noticeable. Neither Boyd nor Ferguson seem able to nail down a starting front row in their minds and whilst the pack can often stand up to a lot of pressure, there are other occasions when they seem to lose their shape and/or footing too easily - the line out is another issue completely.

Quote:

Aberavon Wizard
A lot of criticism of Alex Waller both here and elsewhere which is a little sad bearing in mind the time he has spent at The Gardens, not to mention 'that try'. AW was over-used by West and Mallinder and in my view never translated his experience and ability to step up to the next level which is a pity for the club and the player. For whatever reason he seems to attract the attention of the referee in a negative sense and as such the penalty count seems to mount up - he's not alone in this by any means but it just seems rather more noticeable. Neither Boyd nor Ferguson seem able to nail down a starting front row in their minds and whilst the pack can often stand up to a lot of pressure, there are other occasions when they seem to lose their shape and/or footing too easily - the line out is another issue completely.

I couldn’t agree with your sentiment more
It’s really difficult seeing one of the club’s loyalist servants come under so much criticism

My work colleague who supports Wasps described it as Waller setting them up and Gopperth knocking them over

Sad really

Either Alex or the club need to take a hard look at themselves and decide how the future looks

Just hope he doesn’t attempt to continue playing and turn the fondness the majority of fans hold

No one is above criticism. He is, as you both say, a loyal Saintsman through and through and I've no doubt that he's a good lad to have around the club. But he has become a penalty machine and his performances are hurting us in many games in what is now a cycle.

In fairness I think most of the front row is low-quality prem standard.

Quote:

Longers
Anyway, somethings definitely wrong there.

It's almost as if playing a young prop as your starter game in game out for four? plus seasons might not be the ideal way to manage a player you hope to be playing for you into his 30's?

Quote:

OldMarovian

Quote:

Longers
Anyway, somethings definitely wrong there.

It's almost as if playing a young prop as your starter game in game out for four? plus seasons might not be the ideal way to manage a player you hope to be playing for you into his 30's?

If we were able to climb into Doctor Who's Tardis and go back to that time, you would have seen quite a number of supporters arguing for him to be given a break even then. It never happened.

A bit of a strange one if he was over played earlier on and to be honest none of us here will have the information that the coaches and conditioning staff would have had to judge that there is little that can be done now.

Props generally don't struggle with technique as they got older usually it actually gets stronger playing more than half a game or the Sunday and Friday games seems more of an issue and Saints certainly seem to rotate these days maybe too much in some cases.

Waller does seem to get over the ball a fair bit especially for a prop and this will always leave you open to giving away penalties, maybe time for the coaches to review this. Cole seemed to go through a similar stage at Tigers at becoming a bit of a penalty machine in open play but has since he has not tried to compete as much that seems to have disappeared maybe time for Waller to do the same?

I still have the feeling that as a team we don't fully trust each other or our defensive patterns and this leads to a lot of the more stupid penalties we give away, that is as a team and especially in the forwards it wasn't just Waller giving away some really soft penalties.

We have lost Van Wyke and arguably because he wasn’t getting enough game time when he was probably playing better than anyone, and we now have Danny Hobbs kicking his heels and Manny either not picked or farmed out to Bedford to learn.

Well Manny certainly learnt when he was last man standing and I would hate us to lose either he or DHA because of some misguided sense of loyalty to Alex. DHA went to the not nots for more game time and it would be criminal to let that happen again.

Alex isn’t entitled to either the 1 or 16 shirt and his continuing to give mindless penalties away and then look up at the ref with incredulity is doing the team a disservice and has now cost us a game.

Rest him and send him off to rethink his game.

Quote:

Longers
If we were able to climb into Doctor Who's Tardis and go back to that time, you would have seen quite a number of supporters arguing for him to be given a break even then. It never happened.

Fair point.

@ajack. Also a good point re not knowing the precise details. I can't however think of a single club in the Premiership that has played a front row player in the same way. I'd guess there's a reason for that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:12:20:51:39 by OldMarovian.

Quote:

Dragonboy
We have lost Van Wyke and arguably because he wasn’t getting enough game time when he was probably playing better than anyone, and we now have Danny Hobbs kicking his heels and Manny either not picked or farmed out to Bedford to learn.
Well Manny certainly learnt when he was last man standing and I would hate us to lose either he or DHA because of some misguided sense of loyalty to Alex. DHA went to the not nots for more game time and it would be criminal to let that happen again.

Alex isn’t entitled to either the 1 or 16 shirt and his continuing to give mindless penalties away and then look up at the ref with incredulity is doing the team a disservice and has now cost us a game.

Rest him and send him off to rethink his game.

A little unfair on Alex - he was no worse than our other 3 props on display - all very poor. He certainly didn’t cost us the game - we were poor from 1 to 15 (with the exception of 13 minutes from Proctor). A lot of the focus is on the players (quite rightly) but I remain unconvinced by our coaching set up.

Quote:

Statesman

Quote:

Dragonboy
We have lost Van Wyke and arguably because he wasn’t getting enough game time when he was probably playing better than anyone, and we now have Danny Hobbs kicking his heels and Manny either not picked or farmed out to Bedford to learn.
Well Manny certainly learnt when he was last man standing and I would hate us to lose either he or DHA because of some misguided sense of loyalty to Alex. DHA went to the not nots for more game time and it would be criminal to let that happen again.

Alex isn’t entitled to either the 1 or 16 shirt and his continuing to give mindless penalties away and then look up at the ref with incredulity is doing the team a disservice and has now cost us a game.

Rest him and send him off to rethink his game.

A little unfair on Alex - he was no worse than our other 3 props on display - all very poor. He certainly didn’t cost us the game - we were poor from 1 to 15 (with the exception of 13 minutes from Proctor). A lot of the focus is on the players (quite rightly) but I remain unconvinced by our coaching set up.

Full agreement. We have no/little resilience and I think that's largely reflective of our coaching set up.

Quote:

saint krige

Quote:

Statesman

Quote:

Dragonboy
We have lost Van Wyke and arguably because he wasn’t getting enough game time when he was probably playing better than anyone, and we now have Danny Hobbs kicking his heels and Manny either not picked or farmed out to Bedford to learn.
Well Manny certainly learnt when he was last man standing and I would hate us to lose either he or DHA because of some misguided sense of loyalty to Alex. DHA went to the not nots for more game time and it would be criminal to let that happen again.

Alex isn’t entitled to either the 1 or 16 shirt and his continuing to give mindless penalties away and then look up at the ref with incredulity is doing the team a disservice and has now cost us a game.

Rest him and send him off to rethink his game.

A little unfair on Alex - he was no worse than our other 3 props on display - all very poor. He certainly didn’t cost us the game - we were poor from 1 to 15 (with the exception of 13 minutes from Proctor). A lot of the focus is on the players (quite rightly) but I remain unconvinced by our coaching set up.

Full agreement. We have no/little resilience and I think that's largely reflective of our coaching set up.

Agreed. They've had three years now, and I declared elsewhere, I have placed them "on notice".

I'm sure they'll take note!

We seemed to be struggling at the scrum regardless of who was on the field against Wasps, not sure if it was lack of savvy but we just seemed to be getting pinged for early engage, then overcompensating and not engaging properly. Either some poor communication/teamwork/technique from us or Wasps were being very clever - I suspect as always a bit of each.

I'd have been interested to have an old front rower on the commentary team for a bit more insight into what was going on. Oh for someone like Corbs who was not only physically impressive but also seemed to have that knack of giving the ref the right picture.

I think this harks back to the calls for an ex-front rower to be used as an assistant referee at scrums or as part of the TMO team.

Something needs to change because at the moment, it seems that there is too much guessing.

Wasps were not taking the weight I think.

Any old front rower would tell you that you cheat as much as you can get away with.

In any given scrum you could penalise any one of the front row. This is where the captain comes in to point out yes he dropped his bind but only because X wasn't square or whatever make the ref look at what the other guy is doing.

Sometimes you just get it wrong you mess your timing up, usually the other guy fakes to go early and you respond only for him to hold back and you over extend or something along those lines. Sometimes the ref does just get it wrong.

The lineout isn't won or lost by bad refereeing decisions it is down to bad timing, poor execution or being out thought by the opposition, the scrum is pretty much the same most of the time.

Quote:

SaintsAsh
Wasps were not taking the weight I think.

I thought that too.

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SaintsDuncan

Quote:

SaintsAsh
Wasps were not taking the weight I think.

I thought that too.

And I think that was the root of Paul Hill's ire towards the ref and his opponents. But - he has his legs so far back that he cannot take any movement without falling flat on his face - which we often see and which earn the opposition penalties. And this has gone on for two seasons now.

Let's be perfectly frank, whatever is going on, the coaching team are there to sort it out. They haven't. They do seem to be making progress on the loose head side, but tight head is still an issue.

Perhaps that's next season's project??

Not sure you can attribute all the silly pens AW gave away to being overplayed in the Jim&DW era.
But he wasn't alone it that this weekend.
In reality the number of pens we conceded became a viscous cycle and that's what cost us a chance at the win.

Probably (IMO) a case of individuals each working too hard to make up for mistakes.
Thats when you need someone with the experience of AW and a calm head to pipe up, get everyone working together, trusting the systems and not compounding errors by working to hard to try to make up for a previous one.
*Thats done, it was silly, back in line, no more silly pens, stick to the basics trust your teammates etc etc.

As I say, as ex-captain with his experience it looks worse when he gives away the unnecessary ones but wasnt alone.
I don't know enough about the scrum to attribute an ire towards him in the case of the scrum pens when its not just the props involved....

Scrum is a lottery to be honest. You can be doing something that one ref is okay with then another will pong you. Adapting is a good thing, but sometimes by then they have decided your at fault and no matter what you do it won't go well. All teams seem to experience this.

So, 3 week ban for the high tackle on Alex Mitchell.
Edit, just noticed another thread was created about this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:10:16:10:32:30 by MarkW.