Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
By Saint Ted
November 5 2021
This is the Saints v Sale match thread
Who:
Sale Sharks v Northampton Saints
When:
Saturday 6th November 2021 17:00
Where:
AJ Bell Stadium
How do I watch:
This game is not on TV in the UK
Tickets are available from the Sale website
Officials:
Referee: Anthony Woodthorpe
Assistant referees: Greg Macdonald and Wayne Falla
No.4: Peter Allan
TMO: Hamish Smales
Teams:
Not considered for selection:
Matthew Arden, Callum Burns, Oisín Heffernan, George Hendy, Dani Long-Martinez, Taqele Naiyaravoro, Ollie Newman, Matt Proctor, Ollie Sleightholme, JJ Tonks, Ahsee Tuala and Tom Wood.
International duty:
Nick Auterac, Dan Biggar, George Furbank, Courtney Lawes, Frank Lomani, Sam Matavesi, Alex Mitchell, and Api Ratuniyarawa.
Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Marching On (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 12:13
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:12:08:29:57 by Saint Ted.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:12:08:29:57 by Saint Ted.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 12:41
That’s a serious list of absentees. 6-2 bench pretty much forced. Looking forward to seeing Karl and Brandon, a very physical baptism of fire for them.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 12:51
Yes, a bit of a "make do and mend" selection.
But
If the forwards can get some decent ball, I think that backline could do something.
But
If the forwards can get some decent ball, I think that backline could do something.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: twsaint (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 12:58
I know we've got a lot out and Sale may look decent but they are without
Tuilagi, Hill, de Klerk, Quirke, Cliff, Solomona, Harrison, Taylor, Ashman,Schonert, Beaumont, Weise, de Jager,Tom Curry, Neild, Phillips.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:05:13:05:44 by twsaint.
Tuilagi, Hill, de Klerk, Quirke, Cliff, Solomona, Harrison, Taylor, Ashman,Schonert, Beaumont, Weise, de Jager,Tom Curry, Neild, Phillips.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:05:13:05:44 by twsaint.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Rutland Saint (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 13:01
Given the amount of absentees, I quite like the look of this side. Hoping for at least a losing BP😇
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Saint Ted (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 13:14
Current Squad status...
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 13:27
Sale look stronger on paper, bit light at scrum half. Mcginty available for them is massive. But hoping we can play a more intelligent game this week.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Saint Maul (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 13:32
I like the oompf Wilkins and Nansen bring, which we'll need against Sale's physicality.
I feel for Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi. He seems the bottom of the pecking order behind Iyogun, Auterac and Waller.
I feel for Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi. He seems the bottom of the pecking order behind Iyogun, Auterac and Waller.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 13:51
Quote:Saint Maul
I like the oompf Wilkins and Nansen bring, which we'll need against Sale's physicality.
I feel for Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi. He seems the bottom of the pecking order behind Iyogun, Auterac and Waller.
He has had a nasty injury not that long ago though.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Santiago (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 13:56
They've a lot of du Preez there!
Am I alone in only just discovering van de Merve jokes ?
Am I alone in only just discovering van de Merve jokes ?
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: mayhem (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 14:00
Given our unavailable/injury list, not a bad looking team.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Awaywin (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 15:13
Seems odd to me to persist with the 6-2 split. I can't see Tom Litchfield on the injured list, surely an extra back would be useful especially with James starting for the first time this season.
I'm intrigued to see the news guys. I must admit my expectations are managed though.
I'd really like to see Alex Moon put in a good performance. It has been really sad to see him not quick on from the promise of a couple of seasons ago.
I'm intrigued to see the news guys. I must admit my expectations are managed though.
I'd really like to see Alex Moon put in a good performance. It has been really sad to see him not quick on from the promise of a couple of seasons ago.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Saint Ted (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 15:22
6-2 split is kind of forced this week, take out the players in the matchday squad and those unavailable, we have two backs available and both are senior academy, they will both be travelling subs in case anyone else goes down in captains run/warm up.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Deesaint (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 15:45
Great opportunity for some guys to step up and claim recognition
I remember T Harrison being selected due to injuries and international call up
Been a first teamer every since
I remember T Harrison being selected due to injuries and international call up
Been a first teamer every since
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 16:15
Quote:SaintsAshQuote:Saint Maul
I like the oompf Wilkins and Nansen bring, which we'll need against Sale's physicality.
I feel for Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi. He seems the bottom of the pecking order behind Iyogun, Auterac and Waller.
He has had a nasty injury not that long ago though.
Yeah I would have thought plenty of game time with Bedford to not just get fit but also get confidence back in the body is a really good idea. We will need him after Xmas
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: NGSB (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 16:20
Looking at Ted's squad list I am struck at the number of players I know little or nothing about following the apparent forced abandonment of Wanderers fixtures for this season.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: saint krige (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 17:01
Wow, lots of players unavailable. 6-2 definitely forced.
Interesting that Fish is straight back in to start, Haywood no longer seen as a starter or carrying a knock?
Interesting that Fish is straight back in to start, Haywood no longer seen as a starter or carrying a knock?
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Saint Gordo (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 19:44
Agree Sale look pretty good, with a powerful set of forwards (nothing new there). For Saints to win, we need to break even at the breakdown, Fish must nail his throws, and the midfield defense must not make any mistakes. If Saints get those three facets right, no reason why we shouldn't see a win.
Easy to write, just a wee bit harder to do.
Easy to write, just a wee bit harder to do.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Awaywin (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 20:27
Quote:saint krige
Wow, lots of players unavailable. 6-2 definitely forced.
Am I missing something with Litchfield? He was the 23rd last week. Francis can cover 10 and centres. Not asking Litchfield to cover anymore than he would have last week.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: saint krige (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 21:59
Quote:AwaywinQuote:saint krige
Wow, lots of players unavailable. 6-2 definitely forced.
Am I missing something with Litchfield? He was the 23rd last week. Francis can cover 10 and centres. Not asking Litchfield to cover anymore than he would have last week.
Good spot. No idea, perhaps they thought he's not quite ready for back-to-back introductions, but Litchfield would make more sense to me than Piers with his injury record and us playing one of the most physical teams in the prem...
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Walks11 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/11/2021 22:41
Quote:saint krigeQuote:AwaywinQuote:saint krige
Wow, lots of players unavailable. 6-2 definitely forced.
Am I missing something with Litchfield? He was the 23rd last week. Francis can cover 10 and centres. Not asking Litchfield to cover anymore than he would have last week.
Good spot. No idea, perhaps they thought he's not quite ready for back-to-back introductions, but Litchfield would make more sense to me than Piers with his injury record and us playing one of the most physical teams in the prem...
He didn’t have a great time last week albeit out of position, perhaps it’s a week off to protect him a bit raga it’s a similar team
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Awaywin (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 09:28
Quote:Walks11
He didn’t have a great time last week albeit out of position, perhaps it’s a week off to protect him a bit raga it’s a similar team
That’s the only conclusion I can draw. I wouldn’t have thought that was great for his confidence if true. We would rather have nobody there that you. As it seemed the coaching team had acknowledged that 5-3 was the way forwards prior to this game.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: rugbymel (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 17:37
The BBC has listed a few changes to the team:
Francis at 13
Coles at 6
Wilkins at 8
Auterac at 20!
Tupai at 21
Litchfield at 22
Gillespie at 23
Francis at 13
Coles at 6
Wilkins at 8
Auterac at 20!
Tupai at 21
Litchfield at 22
Gillespie at 23
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TimperleySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 17:56
Absolutely decimated! Manny is covering back row!
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:17
Yeah driving wind and rain in Manchester against a pack of South Africans with an injury crisis is a tough assignment
surprised we have sort of hung in there
surprised we have sort of hung in there
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Berkshire-Saint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:26
Trying to keep up the score but last I looked we were 14 points down. Not sure we are really hanging in there.
All teams are struggling with abstractions but the weather is the same for both teams. Our real problem is we are not a tough team who’s progress isn’t as quick as the majority of the teams in the league. I genuinely feel that we are probably the 10th best team in the league, I’m not saying the gulf in teams is massive but we are definitely not a top 4 team for sure.
Games not over and I hope we come back but unfortunately I think a lot of us predicted this.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:06:18:30:49 by Berkshire-Saint.
All teams are struggling with abstractions but the weather is the same for both teams. Our real problem is we are not a tough team who’s progress isn’t as quick as the majority of the teams in the league. I genuinely feel that we are probably the 10th best team in the league, I’m not saying the gulf in teams is massive but we are definitely not a top 4 team for sure.
Games not over and I hope we come back but unfortunately I think a lot of us predicted this.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:06:18:30:49 by Berkshire-Saint.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:33
I think that’s being tough
2nd choice hooker
2nd choice lock
3rd choice flanker
3rd choice 8
3rd choice 9
2nd choice 10
3rd choice 13
2nd/3rd choice wing
2nd choice 15
which means you have 3rd and 4th choices off the bench
it’s terrible conditions against the biggest and hardest pack in the league, it couldn’t be a worse matchup
last week there were no excuses
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:06:18:34:29 by TommySaint.
2nd choice hooker
2nd choice lock
3rd choice flanker
3rd choice 8
3rd choice 9
2nd choice 10
3rd choice 13
2nd/3rd choice wing
2nd choice 15
which means you have 3rd and 4th choices off the bench
it’s terrible conditions against the biggest and hardest pack in the league, it couldn’t be a worse matchup
last week there were no excuses
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:06:18:34:29 by TommySaint.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:38
Currently 23-6 down with nine minutes left to go. This was always going to be which team bounced back better from last weeks disaster. Both teams missing lots of players but probably we are harder hit. On the plus side Irish drew with Sarries so they won't go that many points ahead of us unless we can really turn it round in the last nine minutes.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Toulousian Firefighter (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:38
Well the scrums have gone well.
I don’t care how many players we are missing, the unforced errors are unforgivable. Teams just need to rush us and we are lost. We also make stupid decisions like chipping it over the top in our own 22 - try to Sale. We can’t deliberately be so dumb can we? So who is making the decisions?
I don’t care how many players we are missing, the unforced errors are unforgivable. Teams just need to rush us and we are lost. We also make stupid decisions like chipping it over the top in our own 22 - try to Sale. We can’t deliberately be so dumb can we? So who is making the decisions?
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Deesaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:39
I think Freeman is first choice 15
Listening on radio
Great to have Christian Day commentating
He makes an interesting point regarding taking ball into contact
And that Saints are too upright going into contact giving the bigger stronger Sale defensive easy targets
That’s nothing to do with 2nd or 3rd place players that is basic stuff
Listening on radio
Great to have Christian Day commentating
He makes an interesting point regarding taking ball into contact
And that Saints are too upright going into contact giving the bigger stronger Sale defensive easy targets
That’s nothing to do with 2nd or 3rd place players that is basic stuff
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:45
Quote:Deesaint
I think Freeman is first choice 15
Listening on radio
Great to have Christian Day commentating
He makes an interesting point regarding taking ball into contact
And that Saints are too upright going into contact giving the bigger stronger Sale defensive easy targets
That’s nothing to do with 2nd or 3rd place players that is basic stuff
You can think that all you like but Furbank stays with the England squad at 15, and he starts 15 when they’re both fit for saints
:-)
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: fleetg (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:49
Yep
So frustrating how we seem incapable of getting the basics right week after week and we are woeful from 5 metres out.
We are a pretty poor team at the moment in my view and so predictable. Put a little pressure on us and the inevitable will happen ... give away a penalty or drop the ball.
I actually feel quite sad to admit that I find watching Saints quite boring at the moment.
So frustrating how we seem incapable of getting the basics right week after week and we are woeful from 5 metres out.
We are a pretty poor team at the moment in my view and so predictable. Put a little pressure on us and the inevitable will happen ... give away a penalty or drop the ball.
I actually feel quite sad to admit that I find watching Saints quite boring at the moment.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:51
Now 28-6.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TringSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:54
Not going to moan about the performance as I think we were outgunned from the start.
My gripe is really about how threadbare we are so early in the season. And it’s not just this season, it’s every season. Why are so many players crocked? Why despite having no played matches at the end of last season so we still have players out?
I can get one or two long term injuries, but we have half a team crocked, so are we conditioning them badly, have we signed a group of fragile players or is this just bad luck?
More importantly, how do other teams not experience the same issues? What are they doing differently to us?
My gripe is really about how threadbare we are so early in the season. And it’s not just this season, it’s every season. Why are so many players crocked? Why despite having no played matches at the end of last season so we still have players out?
I can get one or two long term injuries, but we have half a team crocked, so are we conditioning them badly, have we signed a group of fragile players or is this just bad luck?
More importantly, how do other teams not experience the same issues? What are they doing differently to us?
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:55
Finished 30-6. We just struggle against a well organised side with a game plan. Not really a big surprise with a few missing and bad weather.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Deesaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:55
Quote:TommySaintQuote:Deesaint
I think Freeman is first choice 15
Listening on radio
Great to have Christian Day commentating
He makes an interesting point regarding taking ball into contact
And that Saints are too upright going into contact giving the bigger stronger Sale defensive easy targets
That’s nothing to do with 2nd or 3rd place players that is basic stuff
You can think that all you like but Furbank stays with the England squad at 15, and he starts 15 when they’re both fit for saints
:-)
I’d like to agree with you
But then
What’s the point in us both being wrong 🤣🤣
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:57
Really - what is there to say?
Same old same old.
Only that we are now well out of excuses.
Same old same old.
Only that we are now well out of excuses.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Berkshire-Saint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 18:57
Quote:TommySaint
I think that’s being tough
2nd choice hooker
2nd choice lock
3rd choice flanker
3rd choice 8
3rd choice 9
2nd choice 10
3rd choice 13
2nd/3rd choice wing
2nd choice 15
which means you have 3rd and 4th choices off the bench
it’s terrible conditions against the biggest and hardest pack in the league, it couldn’t be a worse matchup
last week there were no excuses
I agree it’s a tough assessment but whilst I agree we have been hit harder, this isn’t a full strength Sale team with a weakened bench.
But squad depth is also part of being a good team and we don’t have that.
I get conditions suit certain styles of play but you can only play with what’s in front of you and I don’t think we do that.
I’m not saying I expected our weakened team to win but I’m not sure we ever give ourselves the chance to, with mindset, resilience, basic skills etc.
I’m not saying the wheels are off and that’s our season over, but I think the set of games up to Christmas will decide whether we kick on or remain distinctly average with the ability for the odd good result.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 19:00
Quote:TringSaint
Not going to moan about the performance as I think we were outgunned from the start.
My gripe is really about how threadbare we are so early in the season. And it’s not just this season, it’s every season. Why are so many players crocked? Why despite having no played matches at the end of last season so we still have players out?
I can get one or two long term injuries, but we have half a team crocked, so are we conditioning them badly, have we signed a group of fragile players or is this just bad
luck?
More importantly, how do other teams not experience the same issues? What are they doing differently to us?
It wasn't that long ago we had close to a full strength side playing the likes of Wasps and Exeter who were decimated by injuries / not available players. It is just one of those things that happens from time to time.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 19:07
A criticism IMHO would be the lack of churn in the squad. If players don’t perform for 2 years in a row then they need replacing and that’s it. The front row did alright in the scrum today but again front 5 is out muscled in general play. I would need to be given a convincing argument to extend todays starters when contracts were up. Similarly Moon needs to be pulling up trees now, if he’s not against South Africans when he’s 25 then he probably isn’t going to (shame I always thought he had the ability). Ribbans is off the pace after injury and was good before. Coles shows promise, his fitness tests and ability to fill out keep him in. JG needs to start playing like a mature 10 now, again didn’t control a game in the wet and you can’t miss 2 penalties in front of goal in games like that, he’s 23 now. Tom and Conor are both handy as backup's 9s and are committed.
That’s where the games are won and lost, we haven’t got time to waste on players who don’t give us the platform to win more games.
That’s where the games are won and lost, we haven’t got time to waste on players who don’t give us the platform to win more games.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: tigersimon (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 19:09
Bath and Wasps are also decimated by injuries at the moment.
Unfortunately it’s an ever decreasing circle, fit squad members play more minutes, training is impacted and therefore more injuries occur.
Unfortunately it’s an ever decreasing circle, fit squad members play more minutes, training is impacted and therefore more injuries occur.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: twsaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 19:21
That was always a massive ask. With a decimated team, terrible conditions a rookie ref and, minimal travelling support, I’m not sure what some people expect. I’ve just got back to car to hear that an old cricketing friend has died and I’ve got a 261 mile journey ahead. Enjoy your evening.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Deesaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 19:31
We have a few players out
It’s the weather
Well we never win at Sale
What did you expect with that big pack against us
Young team
Poor depth
Unlucky with the ref
Oh I could go on
Does it not strike you that we are now lining up the excuses
Wouldn’t it be good to be taken by surprise if we loose a game
Rather than just shrug and look for the excuse of the day
It’s the weather
Well we never win at Sale
What did you expect with that big pack against us
Young team
Poor depth
Unlucky with the ref
Oh I could go on
Does it not strike you that we are now lining up the excuses
Wouldn’t it be good to be taken by surprise if we loose a game
Rather than just shrug and look for the excuse of the day
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: fleetg (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 19:38
Quote:Deesaint
We have a few players out
It’s the weather
Well we never win at Sale
What did you expect with that big pack against us
Young team
Poor depth
Unlucky with the ref
Oh I could go on
Does it not strike you that we are now lining up the excuses
Wouldn’t it be good to be taken by surprise if we loose a game
Rather than just shrug and look for the excuse of the
day
+1
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 19:42
If you looked at the teams and expected a win then I think that’s very hopeful indeed.
What’s productive I think is to probe into the decisions made which get us into that situation where a win is not expected.
Just go and get 3 South Africans sub elite front rowers when contracts are up. It’s really not rocket science, they play every game and are better than anything English for the price. It’s really not difficult.
What’s productive I think is to probe into the decisions made which get us into that situation where a win is not expected.
Just go and get 3 South Africans sub elite front rowers when contracts are up. It’s really not rocket science, they play every game and are better than anything English for the price. It’s really not difficult.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 19:47
Quote:TommySaint
If you looked at the teams and expected a win then I think that’s very hopeful indeed.
What’s productive I think is to probe into the decisions made which get us into that situation where a win is not expected.
Just go and get 3 South Africans sub elite front rowers when contracts are up. It’s really not rocket science, they play every game and are better than anything English for the price. It’s really not difficult.
You mean like the one we let go to Tigers?
I haven't expected us to win any of the games we have lost this season but the size of the loss has been greater than I expected.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Matthew (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 20:14
I think this is called regression to the mean....
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 20:20
Quote:Matthew
I think this is called regression to the mean....
But in this context, how far ahead can we expect the stability to arrive? Or the compensating period of high performance?
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: andysaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 20:25
Not surprised at the result. Hard place to go, many players missing. We are a top 6/8 side and I expect and believe saints will finish there. That means we’re going to lose games like this unfortunately. I don’t particularly expect this position to change whilst under Boyd.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Statesman (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 20:34
Quote:Toulousian Firefighter
Well the scrums have gone well.
I don’t care how many players we are missing, the unforced errors are unforgivable. Teams just need to rush us and we are lost. We also make stupid decisions like chipping it over the top in our own 22 - try to Sale. We can’t deliberately be so dumb can we? So who is making the decisions?
Fair summary. Let’s not kid ourselves Sale are very average right now. This was a terrible performance albeit with depleted resources. Hopefully it will be a low point of our season but I worry that is coming on December 4th!
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 20:44
Quote:ajackQuote:TommySaint
If you looked at the teams and expected a win then I think that’s very hopeful indeed.
What’s productive I think is to probe into the decisions made which get us into that situation where a win is not expected.
Just go and get 3 South Africans sub elite front rowers when contracts are up. It’s really not rocket science, they play every game and are better than anything English for the price. It’s really not difficult.
You mean like the one we let go to Tigers?
I haven't expected us to win any of the games we have lost this season but the size of the loss has been greater than I expected.
Yep I’d have kept him instead
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 20:45
Is having thirty points put past you away by a team that lost heavily to Worcester more or less of a low point than having fifty five points put past you at home?
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Statesman (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 20:54
Quote:ajack
Is having thirty points put past you away by a team that lost heavily to Worcester more or less of a low point than having fifty five points put past you at home?
I thought about that before I posted. I think Tigers are very good right now and we did score 4 tries last week. I think Sale are average and if we were still playing now I don’t think we’d have scored a try. So for me tonight just shaded it.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 20:55
Quote:ajack
Is having thirty points put past you away by a team that lost heavily to Worcester more or less of a low point than having fifty five points put past you at home?
Saracens just drew with Irish who had 14 men for 60 mins and we beat Irish therefore we are better than Saracens
that logic doesn’t really ever stand up, rather every team in the Prem on its day can cause an upset
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Hollywood JK (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 21:00
Quote:TommySaintQuote:ajack
Is having thirty points put past you away by a team that lost heavily to Worcester more or less of a low point than having fifty five points put past you at home?
Saracens just drew with Irish who had 14 men for 60 mins and we beat Irish therefore we are better than Saracens
that logic doesn’t really ever stand up, rather every team in the Prem on its day can cause an upset
Hmmm, when was the last time the Saints caused an upset?? 🙄
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Statesman (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 21:08
Quote:Hollywood JKQuote:TommySaintQuote:ajack
Is having thirty points put past you away by a team that lost heavily to Worcester more or less of a low point than having fifty five points put past you at home?
Saracens just drew with Irish who had 14 men for 60 mins and we beat Irish therefore we are better than Saracens
that logic doesn’t really ever stand up, rather every team in the Prem on its day can cause an upset
Hmmm, when was the last time the Saints caused an upset?? 🙄
25/9/21.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 21:14
I think a 23 with Harrison, Lawes, Juarno, Matavesi, Api, Proctor, Sleightholme, Furbank, Mitchell, Biggar, Dingwall is just a different proposition. I think our first team is pretty dangerous, played poorly against Tigers but there’s clearly a big drop off to the next rung of players. Hopefully the Prem cup can get some up to speed from a match fitness perspective.
Because our front 5 isn’t dominant, when we then don’t have the ball carrying back rowers and first choice backs there isn’t much to play with. Sale are all wrong for us in that circumstance. They’re off form and not a great side but they’re so deep in the pack.
on the plus side Wilkins has the attributes to be a natural Tom Wood successor
Because our front 5 isn’t dominant, when we then don’t have the ball carrying back rowers and first choice backs there isn’t much to play with. Sale are all wrong for us in that circumstance. They’re off form and not a great side but they’re so deep in the pack.
on the plus side Wilkins has the attributes to be a natural Tom Wood successor
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Rugbyman01 (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 21:35
The squad and organisation is set up to be mid table. Leicester have shown what you can do in 18 months if really want to. Saints have not really changed under Boyd and Darbon. Probably board culture. Alot of squad been around a while and some should of been moved on but club stays loyal. Team always struggles against bigger forwards. Grayson is classic issue. Does not play often but expected to play well any time plays. Many players have hardly played for 18 months.
We pretend our top team is really good but reality is we rarely deliver any consistency and little chance of finishing top 4.
Not sure if our S&C is better or worse than any other club but maybe we are asking alot of some players supported by some questionable tactics and coaching over last few years under Boyd.
Onwards to next week and Prem cup🥤
We pretend our top team is really good but reality is we rarely deliver any consistency and little chance of finishing top 4.
Not sure if our S&C is better or worse than any other club but maybe we are asking alot of some players supported by some questionable tactics and coaching over last few years under Boyd.
Onwards to next week and Prem cup🥤
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Awaywin (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 23:00
Quote:ajack
Is having thirty points put past you away by a team that lost heavily to Worcester more or less of a low point than having fifty five points put past you at home?
Being up there today I can say in that weather it their 30 was worth 50 on a dry day. If it wasn’t for Lewis playing it could have been closer to 50.
I must say that was one of if not my least enjoyable day at a saints game.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 23:16
Lewis now looks like a Vunipola, he’s a slab of concrete and we need more of our players to change their physique as he has.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 06/11/2021 23:18
Awaywin thank you for travelling and supporting. I watched on TV (here in the US $5 allows access to every prem game!). The weather stopped up playing a wide game, which on paper was the only way to win today. I think scores likely closer with good weather.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Brackleysaint (IP Logged)
Date: 07/11/2021 08:58
First visit to the A J Bell, not pleasant at times due to the rain driving in to the East Stand. Weakened team yes but very poor, Sale not that good, only in defence. Saints basics bad, too many handling errors, poor ball retention, high penalty count, no excuses should be better, squad players or not, they are professionals.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 07/11/2021 09:06
Also worth noting that Sale had sixteen players unavailable as well, including some of their biggest stars. Losing back to back matches with an average score of 42 against should be a big worry to everyone.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: saint krige (IP Logged)
Date: 07/11/2021 10:11
Just caught the highlights, which admittedly don't give you the full story, but this mantra of us missing players and when they're back we're much better is wearing thin. We got tonked by Tigers who had several players with England as did we, we got tonked by Sale who also have as many (if not more players than us out).
I like Boyd, but it hasn't worked out for whatever reason, he's assembled a really average squad who can't really compete physically, but who can look very good on a dry day now & then.
None of the current coaching set up are ready to become DoR and I sincerely hope we don't go down that route.
I like Boyd, but it hasn't worked out for whatever reason, he's assembled a really average squad who can't really compete physically, but who can look very good on a dry day now & then.
None of the current coaching set up are ready to become DoR and I sincerely hope we don't go down that route.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Push Over (IP Logged)
Date: 07/11/2021 10:55
In my view we seem to be ok as long as the weather is good and they don’t have a big pack. If one of those factors is against us we lose and if both are against us we lose heavily.
Great rugby when it works but margin for error is too fine
Great rugby when it works but margin for error is too fine
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Chris Hoddle (IP Logged)
Date: 07/11/2021 11:19
Well I wasn't expecting much more than we achieved. Yes the conditions were poor but for both teams. Didn't think we played very well. James Grayson really didn't take his opportunity and his kicking was not really up to what you would want for a fly half.
Skosan hardly received the ball and seemed to be getting infuriated.
Did think the scrum faired better than I thought at first then faded rather. We gave away too many penalties again and many of them "silly".
Will be interesting to see the team selection for next week, it being a cup game (and maybe designed to be more a second team competition with some rounds midweek). Seems to me we haven't many other players available to field a much different team.
Still I was home much quicker than a normal match.
Skosan hardly received the ball and seemed to be getting infuriated.
Did think the scrum faired better than I thought at first then faded rather. We gave away too many penalties again and many of them "silly".
Will be interesting to see the team selection for next week, it being a cup game (and maybe designed to be more a second team competition with some rounds midweek). Seems to me we haven't many other players available to field a much different team.
Still I was home much quicker than a normal match.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: batty (IP Logged)
Date: 07/11/2021 12:00
I didn't realise we had 5 props on the bench as we had no one else available
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: acl saint (IP Logged)
Date: 07/11/2021 12:23
Think we’ve seen the best of Boyd.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Brackleysaint (IP Logged)
Date: 07/11/2021 17:23
Quote:Push Over
In my view we seem to be ok as long as the weather is good and they don’t have a big pack. If one of those factors is against us we lose and if both are against us we lose heavily.
Great rugby when it works but margin for error is too fine
Correct, we are nearly always second best in the collisions against the bigger packs, question is, is that solely down to player size or poor technique / coaching?
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 07/11/2021 19:02
Quote:TringSaint
My gripe is really about how threadbare we are so early in the season. And it’s not just this season, it’s every season. Why are so many players crocked? Why despite having no played matches at the end of last season so we still have players out? ...
More importantly, how do other teams not experience the same issues? What are they doing differently to us?
I think some other teams do. Look at Wasps or Bath. Certainly comparable, I'd suggest much worse in Wasps case. It does feel like there have been more injuries than usual this season. I wonder if there's a sort of domino effect once teams get to a certain level of missing players where those stepping up are either not ready or simply try to hard and end up hurting themselves? I honestly don't have a clue but it is concerning.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 07:48
Having to have 5 props on the bench due to 23 players from the squad unavailable makes me think I will wait to see what happens in the next proper prem game before I am fully concerned.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Statesman (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 08:27
We had 3 props on the bench. Our resources are no more depleted than Bath or Wasps. I watched all 3 games live this weekend. We were a distant 3rd in terms of performance.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: saint krige (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 08:38
Quote:Statesman
We had 3 props on the bench. Our resources are no more depleted than Bath or Wasps. I watched all 3 games live this weekend. We were a distant 3rd in terms of performance.
Have to say I agree. We never even threw a shot, let alone land one. Any time you take the field you should at least be competitive, last two games we haven't been at all.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 11:07
Strange reactions on here, those that thought we would be mid table to lower seem very concerned at our last two performances which would probably see us in the 6th- 11th area in we carry on like that while those that saw us as top four or higher don't seem at all concerned in our dip in form.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 14:46
Pessimists assume we will keep losing and optimists assume it’s a bad run and we will start winning again.
Seems perfectly logical
Seems perfectly logical
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 14:53
Quote:TommySaint
Pessimists assume we will keep losing and optimists assume it’s a bad run and we will start winning again.
Seems perfectly logical
Not really logic is based on facts and probability. Pessimism and optimism are based on emotions.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Deesaint (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 15:27
More importantly if we can field our best 15
Good chance of being top 6
If we can’t through injuries/internationals bottom third
Key marker will be our position in all competitions at the end of the year
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:08:15:29:34 by Deesaint.
Good chance of being top 6
If we can’t through injuries/internationals bottom third
Key marker will be our position in all competitions at the end of the year
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:08:15:29:34 by Deesaint.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: saint krige (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 15:39
Its the performances and lack of progress that I fund concerning.
Tigers & Quins have both had new DoR's in the last 18 & 12 months respectively and both look worlds away from where we are after 4 years with the same set-up?
It feels like we're stalling ,and if anything, regressing?
Tigers & Quins have both had new DoR's in the last 18 & 12 months respectively and both look worlds away from where we are after 4 years with the same set-up?
It feels like we're stalling ,and if anything, regressing?
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: TommySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 17:01
Quote:ajackQuote:TommySaint
Pessimists assume we will keep losing and optimists assume it’s a bad run and we will start winning again.
Seems perfectly logical
Not really logic is based on facts and probability. Pessimism and optimism are based on emotions.
The forecasts themselves may or may not be logical.
The expectation that pessimists will forecast worse results and optimists better results is logical. There would be interesting rationale to expect anything else.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ch saint (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 17:03
Sadly I have turned from an optimistic view of Saints to pretty pessimistic. I am sick to death of losing to more powerful teams.
In retrospect it was a huge leap of hope to think we could turn ordinary players into a team that plays like a southern hemisphere team, particularly in the absence of simple grunt up front.
What makes a coach believe he can succeed in the NH without a top quality 8, no other team has done that.
The blame for this sits firmly on the shoulders of the board, they should protect coaches from decisions that the board know full well will not work.
So the board sits on its hands and watches as we stay an anonymous mid table team. Its all ok I suppose the supporters still buy tickets, and generous sponsors bailout the losses.
The only problem is we are a rugby club with supporters who want results.
Injuries apparently picked up in training, and international call ups simply add to the frustration.
Its Wayne Smith all over again.
Its all classic Saints.
In retrospect it was a huge leap of hope to think we could turn ordinary players into a team that plays like a southern hemisphere team, particularly in the absence of simple grunt up front.
What makes a coach believe he can succeed in the NH without a top quality 8, no other team has done that.
The blame for this sits firmly on the shoulders of the board, they should protect coaches from decisions that the board know full well will not work.
So the board sits on its hands and watches as we stay an anonymous mid table team. Its all ok I suppose the supporters still buy tickets, and generous sponsors bailout the losses.
The only problem is we are a rugby club with supporters who want results.
Injuries apparently picked up in training, and international call ups simply add to the frustration.
Its Wayne Smith all over again.
Its all classic Saints.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: Dragonboy (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 18:14
We had a world class no8 ch Saint or does your pessimism blot that from your memory? Or was Louis not world class in your opinion?
Right at the start Boydy refered to having spreadsheets of player needs and contractual positions for the saints and I’d guess similar documents exist as regards potential recruits.
Just because “we” needed a world class 8 or loose head or tea maker doesn’t mean one is available because players have contracts and may not be available for 2 maybe 3 years hence.
Augustus and Skorsan are both pretty good signings in my view and were available contractually and affordable. And both are “betterments” over their predecessors.
And as for your comments on the board I’d guess that we would be in a pretty dire position without their careful stewardship of the club over the Covid period or is that sitting on their hands doing nothing?
Right at the start Boydy refered to having spreadsheets of player needs and contractual positions for the saints and I’d guess similar documents exist as regards potential recruits.
Just because “we” needed a world class 8 or loose head or tea maker doesn’t mean one is available because players have contracts and may not be available for 2 maybe 3 years hence.
Augustus and Skorsan are both pretty good signings in my view and were available contractually and affordable. And both are “betterments” over their predecessors.
And as for your comments on the board I’d guess that we would be in a pretty dire position without their careful stewardship of the club over the Covid period or is that sitting on their hands doing nothing?
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: ch saint (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 18:24
He wasn't here under Boyd
Many other clubs have recruited great 8's in the past few years. eg Tigers
I don't think the stewardship is very difficult to be honest. But don't really want to go down that route.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:08:18:27:25 by ch saint.
Many other clubs have recruited great 8's in the past few years. eg Tigers
I don't think the stewardship is very difficult to be honest. But don't really want to go down that route.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:08:18:27:25 by ch saint.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 19:01
Quote:ch saint
Sadly I have turned from an optimistic view of Saints to pretty pessimistic. I am sick to death of losing to more powerful teams.
In retrospect it was a huge leap of hope to think we could turn ordinary players into a team that plays like a southern hemisphere team, particularly in the absence of simple grunt up front.
What makes a coach believe he can succeed in the NH without a top quality 8, no other team has done that.
The blame for this sits firmly on the shoulders of the board, they should protect coaches from decisions that the board know full well will not work.
So the board sits on its hands and watches as we stay an anonymous mid table team. Its all ok I suppose the supporters still buy tickets, and generous sponsors bailout the losses.
The only problem is we are a rugby club with supporters who want results.
Injuries apparently picked up in training, and international call ups simply add to the frustration.
Its Wayne Smith all over again.
Its all classic Saints.
All clubs supporters want results but only a couple will get it.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 19:37
I personally think it is not about emotion or pessimism. You just see what happen over the course of this season. All clubs tend to have a period of poor form. We have 21 points and have been poor, it just makes sense to me to wait and see what happens. We might come good, we might not. No one knows.
Re: Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Posted by: JohnI (IP Logged)
Date: 08/11/2021 20:49
Listened to the game on saturday and wasnt too impressed from what was being reported but seeing the highlights tonight only just made it worse. Realising that highlights only really centred around scores and Sale scored a lot more than us but the way in which a lot of their tries were scored just seemed too easy.
Penalties galore within kicking distance and no real way to cope with the bigger stronger sale players who just seemed to charge their way through relentlessly.
All very well playing fast flowing rugby but we dont seem to be able to arm wrestle with the bigger teams when plan A dosent work or the weather isnt great.
Penalties galore within kicking distance and no real way to cope with the bigger stronger sale players who just seemed to charge their way through relentlessly.
All very well playing fast flowing rugby but we dont seem to be able to arm wrestle with the bigger teams when plan A dosent work or the weather isnt great.
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