Saints v Racing 92 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:17:08:21:43 by Saint Ted.

Looks like our best team potentially.
Hopeful of a bonus point win. Having watched Racing the last few weeks, even with all of their star players they didn't seem to be able to put it together, .and have been walloped recently.

Well probably a bit over the top but ever hopeful.

A good looking team and a sensible choice at front row v the French.

Shame Courtney isn't available.

We'll need Dingwall and Proctor at their best defensively facing Vakatawa at al.

COYS!!!

Racing have only won away twice this season, the last time being in the middle of October.
Saying that, look at their backline!

Yep, Racing can’t be accused of taking this lightly, that has to be their gun team.
What happened with Courtney, I thought Boyd said he was available?

French teams often don't travel well although Racing seem to have gotten to the later stages for the past few seasons but are on a terrible run.
We on the other hand have a couple of wins under our belts but usually get at least one stuffing at home in Europe and really struggle against the top sides.
I could see this going either way by possibly a large margin.

On paper Racing are world class, they have an incredible bunch of players!
But they dont always gel and thats how i think we can beat them, by playing as a team!
They have alot of individuals and if we defend them right we can catch out the players who try to do too much by themselves and capitalize when they go on their own, tackle them and get over the ball before their mates catch up too them.
Reading the game is going to be key, luckily in Dan B we have the best fly half in the northern hemisphere at this
A good kick chase is going to be key as well to put Kurtly B under pressure because he is a real danger running the ball back.

Racing 92: Beale; Thomas, Vakatawa, Fickou (c), Imhoff; Russell, Machenaud; Gogichashvili, Baubigny, Oz; Jones, Le Roux; Diallo, Lauret, Tanga.

Replacements: Chat, Ben Arous, Gomes Sa, Bresler, Chouzenoux, Gibert, Chavancy, Taofifenua.

No sweat !

And only a French international front row on the bench

That is quite some team from them! If they click at all on our velvet playing pitch, they will be a serious threat from anywhere on the field. Be interesting to see where we stand in comparison.

Courtney is a big, big loss for us.

Of course, they are very strong . The back division looks brilliant. However they are missing a few. The second row isn't great and has Bresler ( just signed from Worcester )on the bench. the starting front row is so-so and they have no scrum half cover.

They are obviously favourites , but a cold night at the Gardens and a vocal crowd will help.

Fish v Chat is an interesting combination.

I'm feeling slightly better overall. Dingers and Proctor have got to be on their game against that centre pairing. If we're not tight there then they're just going to run rings around us.

Let's doi thish.

Betting odds hardly separate the teams. There is no clear favourite.

Paddy power evens for Saints to win and 5/6 for Racing to win.

Betfair evens for Saints and Racing 11/10 to win.

Cold but dry night at the Gardens, here a bit early due to having to allow for traffic. Here’s hoping for a good night

Enjoy and be heard to those of you there tonight!

Lawes recovering from COVID.

One of our most consistent Matevesi have several mega brainfarts.

Wow, horrific start. Poor kicks from Furbank.

Silly stupid mistakes
Rush rush rush no composure
Scrum mullered

5m lineout lost

Come on saints
WAKE UP

Where is our breakdown support

Guys got to get in the game

Need some composure

They looked really poorly prepared and are playing like they are worried about this lot. Handling is dreadful.

Like a library in there.

Awful

Oh well! Good game while it lasted. Which was all of the 7 mins it took for us to self-destruct.

A familiar pattern of panic quickly spreading now. Something seriously wrong somewhere.

Is this guy an international referee?

Amateur Saints, amateur ref and amateur BT sport I’ve switched off.

Furbank's kicking is dreadful, giving them time and space to attack.

We're bang average.

I mean. What kind of pre-match mindset leads to a Hooker trying a chip over the top on his own line from the kick-off? What messages are they being sent out with?

Mediocre squad, mediocre coaches, mediocre fans, decent stadium.

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stoofer
I mean. What kind of pre-match mindset leads to a Hooker trying a chip over the top on his own line from the kick-off? What messages are they being sent out with?

Not that one I can assure you.. at any level

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saint krige
Mediocre squad, mediocre coaches, mediocre fans, decent stadium.

Mediocre squad in terms of this competition, not so much domestically. Given the size and quality of squads allowed in different leagues makes the competition all a bit of a farce. Not even close to a level playing field

Seems fairly obvious where we need new players

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Walks11

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saint krige
Mediocre squad, mediocre coaches, mediocre fans, decent stadium.

Mediocre squad in terms of this competition, not so much domestically. Given the size and quality of squads allowed in different leagues makes the competition all a bit of a farce. Not even close to a level playing field

I think its very average domestically given our resources. Look how well Tigers have recruited in only 18-months.

Moot point imo Walks. The game was effectively over after 7 mins due to our own mistakes and lack of discipline.

If we were a horse we’d have been shot before the first fence!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:10:20:45:15 by stoofer.

Wow the only people losing their heads more than the players are the fans. Chill people.

Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

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SaintsAsh
Wow the only people losing their heads more than the players are the fans. Chill people.

You seem to embrace the mediocrity we've sunk to, others haven't.
This is poor by any standard.

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Well you said the similar about Mitchel and he was prem player of month. Maybe furbs will grow a foot taller and two stone heavier and be world player of the year now.

I recon we should put some of the forum member here on the pitch against Racing, they sound like they would do better.

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Furbank only really excels when we are dominating and using lots of space. I am also bemused by international recognition. Not even close to the right quality.

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Well you said the similar about Mitchel and he was prem player of month. Maybe furbs will grow a foot taller and two stone heavier and be world player of the year now.

I recon we should put some of the forum member here on the pitch against Racing, they sound like they would do better.

Have you pressed the red button by mistake
Saints are in green
Racing are in red
What are you watching

Or just making inane comments to try and get a raise from supporters concerned about our performance

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saint krige

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SaintsAsh
Wow the only people losing their heads more than the players are the fans. Chill people.

You seem to embrace the mediocrity we've sunk to, others haven't.
This is poor by any standard.

No I am not happy with the performance, but am not going to go over the top either. Sarries and the like are consistent and we aren't and we need that.

Saints have been woeful. And Racing haven’t even been that good. The gardens are trying to get behind the team but they are making it very hard

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Deesaint

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Well you said the similar about Mitchel and he was prem player of month. Maybe furbs will grow a foot taller and two stone heavier and be world player of the year now.

I recon we should put some of the forum member here on the pitch against Racing, they sound like they would do better.

Have you pressed the red button by mistake
Saints are in green
Racing are in red
What are you watching

Or just making inane comments to try and get a raise from supporters concerned about our performance

Im concerned with the performance, but again losing our heads because the players are losing their heads won't change it.

Obviously shell shocked from the start. We aren’t well drilled so there is nothing safe to go to. Our scrum pushed off the ball. Lineouts poor. Mitchell spooning kicks to tough.

It’s ok bullying poor premiership sides missing players, a game that means something Leicester or Racing. It’s done after 20 minutes.

We miss a Wood or a Lawes out there. I think they grasp what it means.

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Awaywin
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It’s ok bullying poor premiership sides missing players, a game that means something Leicester or Racing. It’s done after 20 minutes.

Yep, 100%.

Have I got news for you starts in a minute if anyone wants something to watch?

We seem to go missing mentally in some games, some games we do the basics very well and other games we seem to lose them. The players can do it but need to go back to the basics like we have done a couple of times against chiefs, today instead of that we have tried to rush and made things worse. Poor game management from us at the moment.

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Deesaint

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Well you said the similar about Mitchel and he was prem player of month. Maybe furbs will grow a foot taller and two stone heavier and be world player of the year now.

I recon we should put some of the forum member here on the pitch against Racing, they sound like they would do better.

Have you pressed the red button by mistake
Saints are in green
Racing are in red
What are you watching

Or just making inane comments to try and get a raise from supporters concerned about our performance

Think he's pressed the red button, got the 3D headset on and rewinded to 2011 when we were decent in Europe.

So the tactic here is to give the ball to Finn Russell and let him do as he pleases?

Snooker’s on the other channel …

Furbank and Dingwall have been dreadful. They were not interested in the tackle in the slightest, there.

Again a poor kicking from Furbank. Thats 3 that have lead to try's now.

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Fat Prop
Snooker’s on the other channel …

Easy now!

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saint krige

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Deesaint

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Well you said the similar about Mitchel and he was prem player of month. Maybe furbs will grow a foot taller and two stone heavier and be world player of the year now.

I recon we should put some of the forum member here on the pitch against Racing, they sound like they would do better.

Have you pressed the red button by mistake
Saints are in green
Racing are in red
What are you watching

Or just making inane comments to try and get a raise from supporters concerned about our performance

Think he's pressed the red button, got the 3D headset on and rewinded to 2011 when we were decent in Europe.

Dingwall walking into position, Matevesi chip kicking, Ludlam not picking an easy ball up. All under no pressure, all did those things well in the last few games while under more pressure. Ive played the game been there, everyone just playes badly at the same time. Getting rid of the players while sitting 3rd in the league is irrational.

Training run.

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige

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Deesaint

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Well you said the similar about Mitchel and he was prem player of month. Maybe furbs will grow a foot taller and two stone heavier and be world player of the year now.

I recon we should put some of the forum member here on the pitch against Racing, they sound like they would do better.

Have you pressed the red button by mistake
Saints are in green
Racing are in red
What are you watching

Or just making inane comments to try and get a raise from supporters concerned about our performance

Think he's pressed the red button, got the 3D headset on and rewinded to 2011 when we were decent in Europe.

Dingwall walking into position, Matevesi chip kicking, Ludlam not picking an easy ball up. All under no pressure, all did those things well in the last few games while under more pressure. Ive played the game been there, everyone just playes badly at the same time. Getting rid of the players while sitting 3rd in the league is irrational.

Who said anything about getting rid of players? Stop twisting things.

Well taken try by Dingwall.

Racing don't even need to try, we are gifting territory and possession to them. Can someone also tell Austin to stop being a drama queen?

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige

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Deesaint

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Well you said the similar about Mitchel and he was prem player of month. Maybe furbs will grow a foot taller and two stone heavier and be world player of the year now.

I recon we should put some of the forum member here on the pitch against Racing, they sound like they would do better.

Have you pressed the red button by mistake
Saints are in green
Racing are in red
What are you watching

Or just making inane comments to try and get a raise from supporters concerned about our performance

Think he's pressed the red button, got the 3D headset on and rewinded to 2011 when we were decent in Europe.

Dingwall walking into position, Matevesi chip kicking, Ludlam not picking an easy ball up. All under no pressure, all did those things well in the last few games while under more pressure. Ive played the game been there, everyone just playes badly at the same time. Getting rid of the players while sitting 3rd in the league is irrational.

Getting rid of players
Who said that

Are you just posting misleading comments to create disagreement

We are a poorly coached team
We have some good players
But structure strategy game management
Just missing

I don’t think we looked like a side who really thought we could win tonight. The panic and the lack of composure was evident right from the start.

Physically we look like a youth team up against a mens side. Even our biggest players look tiny and weak against their side.

Not a reason for our performance tonight, but what has happened to Dave Ribbans? He was on the verge of international selection last season but looks a shadow of the player this season.

We simply look a poorly coached side who are unable to do the basics when put under any really pressure. As simple as that, nothing has changed for the last few seasons.

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saint krige

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige

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Deesaint

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Well you said the similar about Mitchel and he was prem player of month. Maybe furbs will grow a foot taller and two stone heavier and be world player of the year now.

I recon we should put some of the forum member here on the pitch against Racing, they sound like they would do better.

Have you pressed the red button by mistake
Saints are in green
Racing are in red
What are you watching

Or just making inane comments to try and get a raise from supporters concerned about our performance

Think he's pressed the red button, got the 3D headset on and rewinded to 2011 when we were decent in Europe.

Dingwall walking into position, Matevesi chip kicking, Ludlam not picking an easy ball up. All under no pressure, all did those things well in the last few games while under more pressure. Ive played the game been there, everyone just playes badly at the same time. Getting rid of the players while sitting 3rd in the league is irrational.

Who said anything about getting rid of players? Stop twisting things.

Well taken try by Dingwall.

Thought you were bored by the forum, just trying to make it more exciting for you.

The true saying goes, your never as bad as Krige thinks we are and never as good as Ash says we are. Fine margins against what is effectively an international team, with a much bigger budget and playing as bad as I have seen us play. I feel if we was on form tonight it would be a tighter game.

Shocking.

First game I’ve ever left early from, purely embarrassing

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige

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Deesaint

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Well you said the similar about Mitchel and he was prem player of month. Maybe furbs will grow a foot taller and two stone heavier and be world player of the year now.

I recon we should put some of the forum member here on the pitch against Racing, they sound like they would do better.

Have you pressed the red button by mistake
Saints are in green
Racing are in red
What are you watching

Or just making inane comments to try and get a raise from supporters concerned about our performance

Think he's pressed the red button, got the 3D headset on and rewinded to 2011 when we were decent in Europe.

Dingwall walking into position, Matevesi chip kicking, Ludlam not picking an easy ball up. All under no pressure, all did those things well in the last few games while under more pressure. Ive played the game been there, everyone just playes badly at the same time. Getting rid of the players while sitting 3rd in the league is irrational.

Who said anything about getting rid of players? Stop twisting things.

Well taken try by Dingwall.

Thought you were bored by the forum, just trying to make it more exciting for you.

The true saying goes, your never as bad as Krige thinks we are and never as good as Ash says we are. Fine margins against what is effectively an international team, with a much bigger budget and playing as bad as I have seen us play. I feel if we was on form tonight it would be a tighter game.

Did you watch our game against our biggest rivals, Tigers? Any team who are half decent we go MIA against. We can beat depleted teams, not much more, thats just the reality.
Its going to be another 50+ pointer tonight, unacceptable.

This is said to be our best 23 and its an afternoon stroll for Racing. Many players found out on defensive side tonight. Doubt EJ will be to impressed.

I’m at the match and it’s painful. What’s worse though is the poison being written on here. We’re all disappointed but you lot are making my night that bit more of a challenge. Nice work.

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Saint.Kenneth
I don’t think we looked like a side who really thought we could win tonight. The panic and the lack of composure was evident right from the start.
Physically we look like a youth team up against a mens side. Even our biggest players look tiny and weak against their side.

Not a reason for our performance tonight, but what has happened to Dave Ribbans? He was on the verge of international selection last season but looks a shadow of the player this season.

Just sport mate, could be carrying injury or just out of form.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go out and buy a top international back line. And have an international front row on the bench. Chalk and cheese reallly.

We think we know better than Jones who has coached 3 teams to world cup finals and rates Furbank, we think we know better than Boyd who rates Matevesi who plays excellently against the All blacks, both have been poor today. But the fact is they know better than any here in this forum, it is easy to criticise but harder to play against that quality.

Embarrassingly bad tackling in midfield again.

Lewis nearly rewarded for his hard work and never say die attitude

That was a shocking decision

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saint krige

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige

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Deesaint

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige
Furbank offers zero from 15, rarely runs and beats defenders, kicks really poorly. Over runs moves, international recognition is a mystery to me.

Well you said the similar about Mitchel and he was prem player of month. Maybe furbs will grow a foot taller and two stone heavier and be world player of the year now.

I recon we should put some of the forum member here on the pitch against Racing, they sound like they would do better.

Have you pressed the red button by mistake
Saints are in green
Racing are in red
What are you watching

Or just making inane comments to try and get a raise from supporters concerned about our performance

Think he's pressed the red button, got the 3D headset on and rewinded to 2011 when we were decent in Europe.

Dingwall walking into position, Matevesi chip kicking, Ludlam not picking an easy ball up. All under no pressure, all did those things well in the last few games while under more pressure. Ive played the game been there, everyone just playes badly at the same time. Getting rid of the players while sitting 3rd in the league is irrational.

Who said anything about getting rid of players? Stop twisting things.

Well taken try by Dingwall.

Thought you were bored by the forum, just trying to make it more exciting for you.

The true saying goes, your never as bad as Krige thinks we are and never as good as Ash says we are. Fine margins against what is effectively an international team, with a much bigger budget and playing as bad as I have seen us play. I feel if we was on form tonight it would be a tighter game.

Did you watch our game against our biggest rivals, Tigers? Any team who are half decent we go MIA against. We can beat depleted teams, not much more, thats just the reality.
Its going to be another 50+ pointer tonight, unacceptable.

I was at the game mate, and was very annoyed by our performance. I am still not going to melt down though, however much you might want me too.

Perspective, Racing are littered with multi cap tier 1 international players. A team we could only dream of and impossible under the Prem cap.

The only way to beat a team like this is to be at your very best with your best XV and they have an off day.

We have not helped ourselves at all but this is not a level field

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Deesaint
Lewis nearly rewarded for his hard work and never say die attitude
That was a shocking decision

In no way saying it has impacted the result, but this guy is appalling, no wonder the Aussies were so irate in the Autumn. He’s allowed them a complete free for all in every way

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Deesaint
Lewis nearly rewarded for his hard work and never say die attitude
That was a shocking decision

Shocking call from the referee. Ludlam has been good as ever, really flourishing in the solo captaincy.

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Saint BB
I’m at the match and it’s painful. What’s worse though is the poison being written on here. We’re all disappointed but you lot are making my night that bit more of a challenge. Nice work.

Poison? That's a little ridiculous. Odd little guilt trip device at the end, too. Nice work.

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Walks11

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Deesaint
Lewis nearly rewarded for his hard work and never say die attitude
That was a shocking decision

In no way saying it has impacted the result, but this guy is appalling, no wonder the Aussies were so irate in the Autumn. He’s allowed them a complete free for all in every way

Totally agree, Racing far the better team. But the whole officiating team have been as bad as I have seen. I think we should have had a bonus point but for the officiating.

Racing are 7th(?) in the top 14, not won since October and everyone is making out like they're at their peak. They've been poor this season, but we still cant be competitive. And this wage-cap gap excuse is irrelevant given Racings aforementioned form.

Men versus Boys tonight! Sobering how far we from the elite!

Out played in every facet of the game… 😏

As was pointed out earlier the bookies had this as pretty much an even match and Racing have been very poor lately.

We have been simply awful once again.

So I'm full of cold and feeling lousy so didn't make the match in person.

Watching on TV I would say that it's all mental. This match was decided in the first 10 minutes when we absolutely lost our minds. Rushing everything.

Obviously racing have been pretty good but I do think the ref has been awful. We wouldn't have won tonight ever but poor refereeing stops any momentum you might get.

That said why can't we think on our feet and adapt!

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saint krige
Racing are 7th(?) in the top 14, not won since October and everyone is making out like they're at their peak. They've been poor this season, but we still cant be competitive. And this wage-cap gap excuse is irrelevant given Racings aforementioned form.

They have won 6 and lost 6. When they have played well they have played very well. And when they have lost they have created but not finished. Tonight they have finished and chosen their best backline which they have not always done. But if you want to sell it that way then feel free.

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saint krige
Racing are 7th(?) in the top 14, not won since October and everyone is making out like they're at their peak. They've been poor this season, but we still cant be competitive. And this wage-cap gap excuse is irrelevant given Racings aforementioned form.

No excuse but fact, our errors cost us because clubs like Racing don't need a second invite. Let's see how the other English teams go

Racing wage bill is about 3-4x ours. In life you get what you pay for. Was hoping the old ‘French don’t travel’ was going to happen but it didn’t.

p.s. the way we play needed Russell as our 10

We can make all the excuses in the world
But this is a very poor performance from saints

We lost it in the first 10 minutes with some suicidal decisions

We were then chasing a lost cause

Unfortunately we are just not good enough at this level

Question is do you accept this standard of performance

Or do you aspire to be able to challenge this type of opposition
If so what needs to change to make that happen

Racing are a very good side. The slightly worrying thing for Premiership teams is they seemed in about third gear. Hard night at the office for Saints but focusing on the Premiership is perhaps where the teams heads should be anyway?

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chappers_saint
Perspective, Racing are littered with multi cap tier 1 international players. A team we could only dream of and impossible under the Prem cap.
The only way to beat a team like this is to be at your very best with your best XV and they have an off day.

We have not helped ourselves at all but this is not a level field

At last some perspective. Thanks Chappers.

Wasn't Finn Russell just brilliant?

No pointing fingers at our players, as it is a team effort, death or glory. But very poor defensive alignment and effort. All too rushed and error strewn by us in attack. Lots for the coaches to reflect upon.

And our players need to compare their skills against those of the Racing players tonight. Very much second best.

Hmmm......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:10:22:02:36 by Stockers.

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SaintsAsh

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saint krige
Racing are 7th(?) in the top 14, not won since October and everyone is making out like they're at their peak. They've been poor this season, but we still cant be competitive. And this wage-cap gap excuse is irrelevant given Racings aforementioned form.

They have won 6 and lost 6. When they have played well they have played very well. And when they have lost they have created but not finished. Tonight they have finished and chosen their best backline which they have not always done. But if you want to sell it that way then feel free.

In other words they are 8th. Our 3rd, cant beat the French 8th because of the wage cap? Well Exeter and co can attest that English clubs can infact win (and win the entire tournament). We'll see this weekend and future rounds English teams beat French teams who outspend them.
We weren't even competitive, thats not due to wage cap, its due to being poorly coached/prepared and employing the wrong tactics.

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TommySaint
Racing wage bill is about 3-4x ours. In life you get what you pay for. Was hoping the old ‘French don’t travel’ was going to happen but it didn’t.
p.s. the way we play needed Russell as our 10

Exeter are playing Montpellier tomorrow who will also have a wage bill similar to Racing just as Exeter will have a wage bill similar to ours. Let's see how that goes. Maybe the scoreline will be similar as well.

Lets see how Bordeaux (1st in top14) get on against Tigers tomorrow and how Montepellier (3rd) go against Exeter.

I highly doubt either will be as embarrassed as we were tonight. Its not solely the wage cap, we're also very, very mediocre. Accept it.

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TommySaint
Racing wage bill is about 3-4x ours. In life you get what you pay for. Was hoping the old ‘French don’t travel’ was going to happen but it didn’t.
p.s. the way we play needed Russell as our 10

Yeh agree with that completely. Really hope Biggar is ok but surprised we didn't see more up and unders from him. Perhaps he wasnt 100 percent from the start as against that Racing pack we looked better with Furbank at 10. Need more variety and pace to win against the top teams if we want to play this style. I'd personally like Boyd to stay but there is a question over however world class Biggar he is the right match for Boyd.

That Racing team was phenomenal however poor we were in defence. Top 14 is incredibly tight and their performance tonight was very different to other games they've lost so not point in beating ourselves for losing this, just need to learn from how we lost by so much.

Real questions on our composure and defence. In defence if felt like a combination of structures and individual workrate really missing. Some players aren't good enough but I think this is more a defensive coaching problem.

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ajack
We simply look a poorly coached side who are unable to do the basics when put under any really pressure. As simple as that, nothing has changed for the last few seasons.

100% spot on.

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saint krige
Lets see how Bordeaux (1st in top14) get on against Tigers tomorrow and how Montepellier (3rd) go against Exeter.
I highly doubt either will be as embarrassed as we were tonight. Its not solely the wage cap, we're also very, very mediocre. Accept it.

Tigers have rotated 10 players from last weeks win over Quins, not expecting to win if I'm honest, but hoping our youngsters along with a few key individuals can make Bordeaux work for it.

Men against Boyd’s

Usual suspects spewing the usual nonsense.

Disappointing, annoying result but I truly believe we aren’t as bad as they say when we lose, or as good as they say when we win. Either way I generally find the hyperbole ridiculous.

Quite agree with TimperleySaint, our mentality was wrong. At this level against a team of that calibre you only have to be 3-4% off to be punished for it. And we were.

Montpellier are playing their reserves tomorrow which is why Exeter have been given a 20 point lead on the hcap line and 1/50 to win


just sayin’

Quote:

Deesaint
We can make all the excuses in the world
But this is a very poor performance from saints

We lost it in the first 10 minutes with some suicidal decisions

We were then chasing a lost cause

Unfortunately we are just not good enough at this level

Question is do you accept this standard of performance

Or do you aspire to be able to challenge this type of opposition
If so what needs to change to make that happen

With my Chairperson head on, I would first disregard any emotional response and look at how we can become a top team.

I would disregard how Exeter play against Montpellier as they might have a bad game the same as us while Montpellier have a good game the same as Racing. Or Exeter might have a good game and Montpellier a bad one, two one off games will make it hard to tell, however some of us might want it to be that way to try and prove a point.

I would look at what makes a successful team successful.

You have good players come through the academy and coach them well - Exeter (took them five or six years to bring them on.)
You have good players come through the academy and can afford to buy international players and coach them well - Saracens (Took them five or six years and cheating the salary cap to be successful.)
You buy mostly international players ala Toulon and manage to get them to gel by coaching them well.

We have a good DOR with super rugby winning pedigree (you dont win that by being a poor coach with great players as they all have great players.)

Do we have lots of academy players coming through of the quality Chiefs and Sarries have - unsure (And a good balance of academy players, example props like moon, Fly halves like Simmons and Back rowers like Simmons.) We seem to have mostly talented backs and smaller players in our academy pool.

We won't cheat like Sarries, we might not have lots of good academy players coming through at the same time as Chiefs and we certainly don't have the money of Racing.

So we have to rely on our academy, we sit 3rd in the league, below Tigers who have more money 60% more stadium capacity and Sarries with rich owners and sit above the Champions Quins and Previous Champions Chiefs.

Chiefs have a massive catchment area with no top teams around them, Quins and Sarries have massive catchment areas in London and we share our catchment area with two other clubs who have much bigger stadiums that us and bigger revenue potential(Tigers and Wasps.)

Given that we are nowhere near the top of decent catchment areas in the league, we don't have the biggest stadium in the league and do not have any where near the most money in the league, I would say that current third in the league is punching.

I would also say I have had far too much beer or on tonight's performance not enough, and I wish you all a very good weekend. Just remember that after you have played it is just a game and enjoy drinking and being merry with one another. During the game play hard, train hard in the week and play hard when afforded the time to do so. Camaraderie and brotherly love is the most important thing in sport, and that deserves your best effort in smashing the opposition in both the game and the after drinking, and that is heightened by your mutual respect gained from knowing you have both put your bodies on the line.

Most important of all is that we support the greatest rugby club in the world and that we can be proud of our club ethos and the way we try to play the game, COME ON, YOU SAINTS!

Agreed higgy 365.
Calm down, Northampton still a good team, still got great players, just beaten by a quality side this evening. Racing will no doubt be at the serious business end of the competition.

Quote:

higgy365
Usual suspects spewing the usual nonsense.
Disappointing, annoying result but I truly believe we aren’t as bad as they say when we lose, or as good as they say when we win. Either way I generally find the hyperbole ridiculous.

Quite agree with TimperleySaint, our mentality was wrong. At this level against a team of that calibre you only have to be 3-4% off to be punished for it. And we were.

+1 Million (Sorry for more hyperbole.)

Quote:

TommySaint
Montpellier are playing their reserves tomorrow which is why Exeter have been given a 20 point lead on the hcap line and 1/50 to win

just sayin’

Don’t think you will be able to read too much in quite a lot of results this weekend. There are a number of teams suffering with COVID absentees and others choosing to pick an under strength team. Shows the priorities I guess. I applaud us for putting out a strong team but our chances of progressing are somewhere south of slim even before tonight so would question why we went with the team we did. Home game may have been the clincher and see where we are at after the weekend.

Quote:

Awaywin
Men against Boyd’s

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Racing have multiple world class players many of whom were on show tonight - Saints have one in that class and he was not playing this evening. Men against boys I'm afraid and the next three games could be very ugly !

The first eight minutes though?!?

The match was effectively over as a contest at that point. Racing had had to do precious little. In fact, given the charge down things could have been over earlier.

Talk of wage bills and catchment areas is all moot imo. Particularly since this is far from the first time we’ve seen those opening passages of play from this team on big occasions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:10:23:32:49 by stoofer.

It's our traditional December European capitulation at the Gardens, which I remember happening since at least December 2013 (walloped that year by Leinster), and which equally never seems to affect the rest of our season (that season we didn't do too badly....)

But it doesn't appear to matter who the coaches or players or opponents are, a poor performance resulting in a big loss before Christmas at home against a European team is an established event. What I want to know is why it has become an annual occurrence and how we change that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:10:23:42:36 by Matthew.

Finn Russell was class. World class

Funny he can be dreadful on occasions. That mercurial talent.

Ref didn’t help and we panicked a bit and didn’t play heads up rugby but Raciing ooze class.

And Saint Krige. I suggest you retract you comment about mediocre fans, poorly thought out comment.

Quote:

TommySaint
Racing wage bill is about 3-4x ours. In life you get what you pay for.

You need to do some homework before making ridiculous comments like this..it's nothing of the sort.

Quote:

Hymenoptera

Quote:

TommySaint
Racing wage bill is about 3-4x ours. In life you get what you pay for.

You need to do some homework before making ridiculous comments like this..it's nothing of the sort.

I think it is about 3 x ours. Prem wage cap 5 million and Top 14 10.5 million plus about 4 million in players under consideration of playing for France.

Quote:

SaintsAsh

Quote:

Hymenoptera

Quote:

TommySaint
Racing wage bill is about 3-4x ours. In life you get what you pay for.

You need to do some homework before making ridiculous comments like this..it's nothing of the sort.

I think it is about 3 x ours. Prem wage cap 5 million and Top 14 10.5 million plus about 4 million in players under consideration of playing for France.

You seem to be doubling down on inaccuracies? The Premiership figure you use is without allowances, marquee and assuming that clubs haven't taken advantage of the 75% fudge to actually be using nearer the old figure. Also it's in Pounds. The Top 14 figure is in Euros is from a previous season and the French system doesn't allow marquee players. As for the idea that French teams get 4 million of any currency for playing French players ...
Basically the total cap in the Premiership for this season is between £5.6M (still with two Marquees as long as you had agreed that before last year) and possibly as much as £1M more if clubs took advantage of PRLs cap fudge. Top14 is about £8.5M with no Marquee so it's doubtful they're even spending 25% more than the Premiership clubs spending to the full legal limits.
It's confusing as sometimes French figures quote salary for clubs that includes their non rugby personnel. Given some clubs own restaurants, airports, commercial venues etc the figure can be significantly bigger than the "squad" one.
My only caveat would be that a couple of clubs have been caught breaching the salary cap but their lawyers made sure it went nowhere. Given the lack of fuss from the others clubs about that there's maybe a suspicion that in contrast to the Premiership clubs breaking the cap is not that unusual?

Gulf in class, end off. We as a club can't compete financially with the French, I don't think we compete financially domestically. We are not able to assemble a squad like that. What Saints player could get into that back line?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:11:07:24:08 by Brackleysaint.

Quote:

OldMarovian

Quote:

SaintsAsh

Quote:

Hymenoptera

Quote:

TommySaint
Racing wage bill is about 3-4x ours. In life you get what you pay for.

You need to do some homework before making ridiculous comments like this..it's nothing of the sort.

I think it is about 3 x ours. Prem wage cap 5 million and Top 14 10.5 million plus about 4 million in players under consideration of playing for France.

You seem to be doubling down on inaccuracies? The Premiership figure you use is without allowances, marquee and assuming that clubs haven't taken advantage of the 75% fudge to actually be using nearer the old figure. Also it's in Pounds. The Top 14 figure is in Euros is from a previous season and the French system doesn't allow marquee players. As for the idea that French teams get 4 million of any currency for playing French players ...
Basically the total cap in the Premiership for this season is between £5.6M (still with two Marquees as long as you had agreed that before last year) and possibly as much as £1M more if clubs took advantage of PRLs cap fudge. Top14 is about £8.5M with no Marquee so it's doubtful they're even spending 25% more than the Premiership clubs spending to the full legal limits.
It's confusing as sometimes French figures quote salary for clubs that includes their non rugby personnel. Given some clubs own restaurants, airports, commercial venues etc the figure can be significantly bigger than the "squad" one.
My only caveat would be that a couple of clubs have been caught breaching the salary cap but their lawyers made sure it went nowhere. Given the lack of fuss from the others clubs about that there's maybe a suspicion that in contrast to the Premiership clubs breaking the cap is not that unusual?

I am unsure mate, I got all the info of Google. I think it is in the relm of possible that racings wage bill is 3 x ours.

I make it 15 players from Racing in the elite list so racing will get 180000 per player which js 2.7 million plus the 8.5 million you found, so around 11.2 million if they have not cheated which looks likely given their squad. I would imagine we aren't around 4 million for the 3 x wage to ring true. Realistically they probably have double our money in player's.

Jacky Lorenzetti
Nationality: Swiss
Net Worth: €4 billion
Rugby CV: Racing 92 Majority Owner

Unlike most of this list, Jacky Lorenzetti was never a rugby fan growing up. Growing up in Switzerland and graduating from hotel school in Lausanne he understandably wasn’t exposed to the game.

After founding Foncia, which since 2006 has been Europe’s biggest real estate company, he married his wife in France and caught the bug from her brothers. He was soon so in love with the game that he bought a 62% controlling share in Racing Club 92, then a second division French team.

Now however, they’re anything but second rate. After taking the reins at the club Lorenzetti has built two state of the art training centres, brought in the world’s best players and catapulted Les Ciels et Blancs to the top of European rugby.

While the recent fallen through merger with Stade Francais almost certainly would’ve brought even further domination, Lorenzetti’s finances have still been the source of Racing’s successes and sit as the archetypal example of the power of deep pockets in the Top 14.

Thus rendering the Champions Cup a pointless competition.

Quote:

stjj
Jacky Lorenzetti
Nationality: Swiss
Net Worth: €4 billion
Rugby CV: Racing 92 Majority Owner

Unlike most of this list, Jacky Lorenzetti was never a rugby fan growing up. Growing up in Switzerland and graduating from hotel school in Lausanne he understandably wasn’t exposed to the game.

After founding Foncia, which since 2006 has been Europe’s biggest real estate company, he married his wife in France and caught the bug from her brothers. He was soon so in love with the game that he bought a 62% controlling share in Racing Club 92, then a second division French team.

Now however, they’re anything but second rate. After taking the reins at the club Lorenzetti has built two state of the art training centres, brought in the world’s best players and catapulted Les Ciels et Blancs to the top of European rugby.

While the recent fallen through merger with Stade Francais almost certainly would’ve brought even further domination, Lorenzetti’s finances have still been the source of Racing’s successes and sit as the archetypal example of the power of deep pockets in the Top 14.

Thus rendering the Champions Cup a pointless competition.

That might possibly be true if they won it every year but the fact they have never won it and have lost in the final to teams like Exeter on a lesser budget means that it is far from a meaningless competition or one you can win with money alone.

Just because we are poor doesn’t mean the competition is meaningless, as Ajax said Exeter have managed it.
I don’t think we are a good team because at some point the performances have to appear and I don’t mean sticking 50 on Worcester or beating a depleted Bath with zero confidence.
I do not expect Northampton to win every game and be world beaters but we have enough budget and assets that we should be competitive in every game we play and we are simply not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:11:09:16:37 by Berkshire-Saint.

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint
Just because we are poor doesn’t mean the competition is meaningless, as Ajax said Exeter have managed it.
I don’t think we are a good team because at some point the performances have to appear and I don’t mean sticking 50 on Worcester or beating a depleted Bath with zero confidence.
I do not expect Northampton to win every game and be world beaters but we have enough budget and assets that we should be competitive in every game we play and we are simply not.

I think we have the players to be competitive, and on our day we would have given them a good go. We have played well against top sides and won and poorly like Tigers and last night and been well beaten.

Spot on Berkshire Saint. Irrespective of wage disparities, it’s our failure to even be competitive that rankles. Given the squad we have we should, at least, be able to manage that.

Our tendency to self-destruct, lack of sensible game management, poor discipline, and tactical naivete are all on us I’m afraid.

Oh! And absence of leadership. Let’s not forget that!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:11:09:50:03 by stoofer.

Racing are a decent team littered with highly paid and talented individuals. Having said that, had they been playing away last night at any of Saracens, Exeter, Tigers or Quins I’d take the English team to beat them.
The Matevesi kick in the first play set the tone for our performance and is emblematic of much that is wrong with Saints. Why did he do it? He did it because he’s playing in an environment and culture that allows it and probably encourages it. There’s a time and a place for the Harlem Globetrotter all court game and it isn’t in the 1st minute of a big European game.
I continue to believe that we are a poorly coached team and until that gets resolved we are going to be on the end of some big defeats against quality opposition. I’ll be at both games over the Xmas period but I’m fearful that they could both be ugly.

Quote:

stoofer
Spot on Berkshire Saint. Irrespective of wage disparities, it’s our failure to even be competitive that rankles. Given the squad we have we should, at least, be able to manage that.
Our tendency to self-destruct, lack of sensible game management, poor discipline, and tactical naivete are all on us I’m afraid.

Oh! And absence of leadership. Let’s not forget that!

If you are concerned over the leader on the pitch
In my opinion Lewis was immense last night
Didn’t give up
Was at the heart of the battle
Continually talking to the team

I’m pretty sure he will be feeling bad today over that performance

I doubt he will be looking for excuses
Paid more
Better players etc

I would guess there will be a real focus on how to raise the game
And if some players are unable to do so they should be replaced

It’s a results based profession
Coming second is not acceptable

If winning doesn’t matter
May as well watch the Old Scouts



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:11:10:12:38 by Deesaint.

Quote:

ajack

Quote:

stjj
Jacky Lorenzetti
Nationality: Swiss
Net Worth: €4 billion
Rugby CV: Racing 92 Majority Owner

Unlike most of this list, Jacky Lorenzetti was never a rugby fan growing up. Growing up in Switzerland and graduating from hotel school in Lausanne he understandably wasn’t exposed to the game.

After founding Foncia, which since 2006 has been Europe’s biggest real estate company, he married his wife in France and caught the bug from her brothers. He was soon so in love with the game that he bought a 62% controlling share in Racing Club 92, then a second division French team.

Now however, they’re anything but second rate. After taking the reins at the club Lorenzetti has built two state of the art training centres, brought in the world’s best players and catapulted Les Ciels et Blancs to the top of European rugby.

While the recent fallen through merger with Stade Francais almost certainly would’ve brought even further domination, Lorenzetti’s finances have still been the source of Racing’s successes and sit as the archetypal example of the power of deep pockets in the Top 14.

Thus rendering the Champions Cup a pointless competition.

That might possibly be true if they won it every year but the fact they have never won it and have lost in the final to teams like Exeter on a lesser budget means that it is far from a meaningless competition or one you can win with money alone.

Agree to a point but the disparity in squad spend will increase when our cap reduction takes full effect. See Rob Baxters interview in the Telegraph today. Possibly losing at least 2 x internationals because he can’t keep within the new cap. The Racing backline wage bill would probably be not far off our whole squad. We will only ever be plucky underdogs, it’s not an even footing. In addition you then have the Irish provinces who are financially propped up by the IRFU and prioritise the competition allowing their players to peak for Europe rather than be flogged week in week out domestically. We are disadvantaged every which way, an attritional league without the salary cap to allow squad depth to rest players sufficiently. French league is attritional too, more so but have salary cap to rest and rotate without drop off in quality.

Exeter are the anomaly as the only English side who have been truly competitive of late. Ignoring Sarries given their breach of the cap. I don’t know what the answer is but I’ve lost all but a passing interest in how we get on in Europe. Hope you draw a Welsh region or an Italian side, hope you draw a French team who is concentrating on domestic league and hope you get a favourable draw for knockout stages assuming you haven’t played like we did last night along the way.

It’s only dragged back to anywhere near level by the French laissez faire attitude to the game in question or the competition. You never know quite what you are going to get. Really with the quality and depth at their disposal we shouldn’t have a hope

I’ve only just read the thread having got back late last night after the game. I was very disappointed with our showing but when I first saw the team sheet it was pretty obvious that Racing were coming here to win with their gun team.
The French sides are famously fragile playing away and I think if we’d done what we did against Bath and scored in the first minute we may have seen a very different outcome. However, we didn’t and we contrived to implode from the whistle with some headless chicken behaviour. Maybe the ‘aura’ of the opposition got into the guy’s heads, I don’t know but you can’t hand the initiative to a team like Racing and expect to recover.
Having said that, there were some very dubious decisions from the officials, the AI on our side was prancing up and down touch paying little attention to his job. Racing flaunted the off-side line continually but never got pinged. It seems the ref could only see off side when he had the try line as a guide. And as for the Ludlum no try, yes Slights did impede a player who was running in the opposite direction to Lewis and would never have been in a position to make a tackle!
As for Racing, well they lived up to the big name billing, Vakatawa and Ficou were just superb and Russell fed them beautifully. They have world class players and the gulf in class showed.
But, other than the brain-fart moments, I don’t think Saints were that shabby. They put themselves under huge pressure in the opening quarter and struggled with trying just a bit too hard. We got butter fingers and spurned any number of opportunities, but we were creating stuff. It’s easy to be critical of individuals but we have good players who are capable of better. Last night was a great lesson on the step up from half decent prem to top euro and they will learn a great deal from that.

Last night simply proved the old adage "forwards win games and backs decide by how much". Much as I was impressed by the Racing back play it was their forwards who out fought (and thought?) us. Helped by muddled reffing they showed how to control a game and despite our players determined efforts we simply did not have the power to disrupt them. This seems to me to highlight the recruitment need - but would the money available obtain the class we require.

Quote:

SaintsAsh
I make it 15 players from Racing in the elite list so racing will get 180000 per player which js 2.7 million plus the 8.5 million you found, so around 11.2 million if they have not cheated which looks likely given their squad. I would imagine we aren't around 4 million for the 3 x wage to ring true. Realistically they probably have double our money in player's.

I'm not sure about the details of the elite list but I'd guess that like our remuneration for EQP Internationals it's "up to" that maximum rather than every player gets that. So perhaps more like 2M (Euros) than the 4M you suggested initially? Add that to 8.5M and you're talking about a bit under £9M.
I may be wrong but I'd guess Saints spend up to the cap (certainly the reduced one) plus £1M maybe of marquee in Biggar and Lawes as long as both where agreed before this season? so call it £6.6M this season? So yes, the French clubs have higher wage bills but I don't think it's in the realms you are talking about. Talk to the Italian and Welsh teams in the URC. I think you'd be right that some of them would have half of the budget or less of Leinster or maybe even Munster and Ulster.

Quote:

ajack
That might possibly be true if they won it every year but the fact they have never won it and have lost in the final to teams like Exeter on a lesser budget means that it is far from a meaningless competition or one you can win with money alone.

^ This.

Journeymen and youngsters versus top internationals.

The team of top internationals had been playing badly so we decide to give them confidence by some appalling decision making , errors and tackling in the first 10 minutes.

IMHO We are an ok premiership team with a regular ability to brain fade.

Lots of comments on here I agree with.

Statesman I share your frustration re our Harlem Globetrotters style - I'm really tired of our overly ambitious play at the wrong times putting us under pressure. That kick from Matavesi was absolute madness and put us under immediate pressure, which we continually compounded over the first 25 mins, with a string of errors and penalties. We see this poor decision making time and again, individually and collectively, which does make you think this chuck it about and hope for the best style is seen as acceptable. Loose play against a team of internationals will be punished.

I think you can also only read so much into Racing's position in the Top 14. Okay they've been inconsistent and have played poorly at times, but when you have a team (and bench) littered with top internationals and it does click they are obviously going to be very good. There is some debate above about what the exact Top 14 cap is but even if it were just £3 million more (and it isn't) that would still afford you six additional top international players. And it's not just spend on players - it's also having the additional money to spend out on training facilities etc. Eg we have only recently submitted a planning application for an indoor training facility - something which most other top European clubs already have. You can point to the recent performances of Exeter and Sarries (the latter with less validity) but I think if you looked at the results and progression to knockout stages of French clubs versus English sides in Europe in the last 10 years there would be a disparity. So we should applaud Exeter, but there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that the playing field is not level. Having said that, the margin and manner of the loss was still unacceptable (I am not condoning poor play).

Last, as others have commented, the officials were awful. Racing were constantly offside, a high tackle on Freeman in the air right in front of the ref and touch judge went unpunished and the disallowed try was a joke. Obviously we didn't lose the game due to the poor officiating, but Euro cup refs are meant to be the best refs in Europe ffs! That being said, given Racing were always pushing the offside line, where were the kicks over the top or in behind from Biggar? As Boyd said, we didn't adapt well.

A friend of mine played for Racing, he paid about 10% income tax. They had some incentive plan which was certainly around when Radradra played there. Article here about it, the average is 8%.

[www.nzherald.co.nz]

Laissez-faire cap approach too.

Front 5 and lack of size in the centres are Saints problem. Bath rolled right over them when they wanted to in the 22. Defence around the breakdown non existent. Front 5 are nowhere in defence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:11:13:52:58 by TommySaint.

Quote:

Sir Hector
I’ve only just read the thread having got back late last night after the game. I was very disappointed with our showing but when I first saw the team sheet it was pretty obvious that Racing were coming here to win with their gun team.
The French sides are famously fragile playing away and I think if we’d done what we did against Bath and scored in the first minute we may have seen a very different outcome. However, we didn’t and we contrived to implode from the whistle with some headless chicken behaviour. Maybe the ‘aura’ of the opposition got into the guy’s heads, I don’t know but you can’t hand the initiative to a team like Racing and expect to recover.
Having said that, there were some very dubious decisions from the officials, the AI on our side was prancing up and down touch paying little attention to his job. Racing flaunted the off-side line continually but never got pinged. It seems the ref could only see off side when he had the try line as a guide. And as for the Ludlum no try, yes Slights did impede a player who was running in the opposite direction to Lewis and would never have been in a position to make a tackle!
As for Racing, well they lived up to the big name billing, Vakatawa and Ficou were just superb and Russell fed them beautifully. They have world class players and the gulf in class showed.
But, other than the brain-fart moments, I don’t think Saints were that shabby. They put themselves under huge pressure in the opening quarter and struggled with trying just a bit too hard. We got butter fingers and spurned any number of opportunities, but we were creating stuff. It’s easy to be critical of individuals but we have good players who are capable of better. Last night was a great lesson on the step up from half decent prem to top euro and they will learn a great deal from that.

Sir Hector, I think you speak a lot of sense.

The French are on a high just now, many tipping them to win the World Cup, the old Gauloises smoking, red wine supping in the dressing room teams have long gone.

Chiefs fan in peace. Thrupp has it right. Apart from the appalling brain farts in the first few minutes which must have knocked the pins from under Saints, they simply did not have the power, heft or dynamism to challenge the Racing pack who got over the gain line at will. Their back row were superb. Forget the commentators bleating about galacticos in the backs that was a forwards victory plain and simple.

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SaintsAsh

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OldMarovian

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SaintsAsh

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Hymenoptera

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TommySaint
Racing wage bill is about 3-4x ours. In life you get what you pay for.

You need to do some homework before making ridiculous comments like this..it's nothing of the sort.

I think it is about 3 x ours. Prem wage cap 5 million and Top 14 10.5 million plus about 4 million in players under consideration of playing for France.

You seem to be doubling down on inaccuracies? The Premiership figure you use is without allowances, marquee and assuming that clubs haven't taken advantage of the 75% fudge to actually be using nearer the old figure. Also it's in Pounds. The Top 14 figure is in Euros is from a previous season and the French system doesn't allow marquee players. As for the idea that French teams get 4 million of any currency for playing French players ...
Basically the total cap in the Premiership for this season is between £5.6M (still with two Marquees as long as you had agreed that before last year) and possibly as much as £1M more if clubs took advantage of PRLs cap fudge. Top14 is about £8.5M with no Marquee so it's doubtful they're even spending 25% more than the Premiership clubs spending to the full legal limits.
It's confusing as sometimes French figures quote salary for clubs that includes their non rugby personnel. Given some clubs own restaurants, airports, commercial venues etc the figure can be significantly bigger than the "squad" one.
My only caveat would be that a couple of clubs have been caught breaching the salary cap but their lawyers made sure it went nowhere. Given the lack of fuss from the others clubs about that there's maybe a suspicion that in contrast to the Premiership clubs breaking the cap is not that unusual?

I am unsure mate, I got all the info of Google. I think it is in the relm of possible that racings wage bill is 3 x ours.

I make it 15 players from Racing in the elite list so racing will get 180000 per player which js 2.7 million plus the 8.5 million you found, so around 11.2 million if they have not cheated which looks likely given their squad. I would imagine we aren't around 4 million for the 3 x wage to ring true. Realistically they probably have double our money in player's.

You can call it x10 if you want to..the fact is it isn't even double..and an English team can marquee the Barrett bros on 2m quid each and spend more than the French, if they have the resources and desire.
Wages/Cap..it's all a red herring and jumped on my supporter apologists. That's why you see Tigers beating Begles, Lyon scrapping past Gloc 2nds and Cardiff's Red Dragon pub team putting in a decent effort against Tolouse...and why love em or hate em, Saracens will always be there or there about's with the same 'ahem' resources, because beyond the smoke, they are a genuine good team.

Technically what you say is 100% correct but it’s only relevant if you think the cap is strictly adhered to, which I don’t and need to allow for 30-40% less tax assuming that hasn’t changed. Just props they have 2 France internationals, 1 South African international, 2 Georgian internationals (and 3others). We have 1 England international prop.

but shouldn’t be hosed like that at home for all the reasons above, they aren’t hard nosed, no real killer winning instinct, no razor focus.

Interesting stats from last night for Fraser Dingwall
1️⃣0️⃣5️⃣ Most Metres Made
1️⃣2️⃣ Most carries
1️⃣1️⃣ Most Tackles by a back
5️⃣ Most Defenders Beaten
1️⃣ Try
1️⃣ Try Assist

He and Lewis were our stand-out players (for the right reasons) for sure.

Having watched the Cardiff/ Toulouse and the Exeter/Montpelier matches, neither of these had the same speed and intensity as the Saints match.
Saints were on the end of similar losing scorelines as in these two matches, but the power and speed of Toulouse and Exeter were imho way behind that of Racing. From the little I have seen and heard Racing so far are the team of round one. Saints faced a team of exceptional players at the top of their game.
From a coaching perspective the Racing coaches had plenty of footage of how Saints play, I suspect that video of how Racing have played in the top14 will have revealed not much. Racing stated that they were targetting europe above all else and it showed.
Sure any defeat is bad ,and there were mistakes , but there's little disgrace in losing to a team that played as well as Racing did.

Well, it's very appropriate, with Christmas just around the corner, that Wenceslas scored a hat trick.

Mind you, given our defensive performance, even Joseph and Mary's donkey could have trotted in three tries!

Quote:

Brackleysaint
Interesting stats from last night for Fraser Dingwall
1️⃣0️⃣5️⃣ Most Metres Made
1️⃣2️⃣ Most carries
1️⃣1️⃣ Most Tackles by a back
5️⃣ Most Defenders Beaten
1️⃣ Try
1️⃣ Try Assist

Thanks for these - imo Dingers has been our best player so far this season and was again on Friday night.

Quote:

Stockers
Well, it's very appropriate, with Christmas just around the corner, that Wenceslas scored a hat trick

Very well done
Now Saints need to try and nab the three Wise Men for their coaching team!

Quote:

Stockers
Well, it's very appropriate, with Christmas just around the corner, that Wenceslas scored a hat trick.
Mind you, given our defensive performance, even Joseph and Mary's donkey could have trotted in three tries!

Pretty sure Santa's sleigh would've found a gap in our defence!

Quote:

Saint Assange

Quote:

Stockers
Well, it's very appropriate, with Christmas just around the corner, that Wenceslas scored a hat trick.
Mind you, given our defensive performance, even Joseph and Mary's donkey could have trotted in three tries!

Pretty sure Santa's sleigh would've found a gap in our defence!

The Titanic would have found gaps in our defence.