Saints v Ulster Match thread - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:30:11:18:49 by Saint Ted.

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Not seen it posted yet. So here they are

We really don't seem to have much faith in JG.
Ulster look strong. Good to see Courtney and Wood back.

Quote:

Dave Jackson
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59681220
Not seen it posted yet. So here they are

...........
ULSTER RUGBY vs NORTHAMPTON SAINTS
Heineken Champions Cup, Pool A, Round 2
Friday 17 December 2021
Kingspan Stadium
Kick-off: 8pm

15 Ahsee Tuala
14 Ollie Sleightholme
13 Matt Proctor
12 Fraser Dingwall
11 Courtnall Skosan
10 George Furbank
9 Alex Mitchell

1 Alex Waller
2 Mike Haywood
3 Ehren Painter
4 David Ribbans
5 Api Ratuniyarawa
6 Courtney Lawes
7 Lewis Ludlam (c)
8 Tom Wood

Replacements:
16 James Fish
17 Emmanuel Iyogun
18 Conor Carey
19 Alex Coles
20 Juarno Augustus
21 Tom James
22 James Grayson
23 Rory Hutchinson

If we are going to win our 'lighter' forwards really need to get on the front foot to give the backs chance to play.
Hoping for a turnaround from last week and a closer score line but more importantly 80 minutes of intensity and
sensible game management.

Is it on the tellybox?

I'm relatively relaxed about results in Europe given that we're nowhere near ready to compete in the knock-outs even if we did make it out of the group. However I do want to see good performances that at the very least build confidence for the return to the Prem where we're off the pace of the leaders Tigers but still pretty well placed.

I can't decide whether it is a case of low faith in Grayson or more a case of Furbank having a good case - let's not forget that he has played at 10 for England which Grayson hasn't. Yes it wasn't the most difficult game that England will have and he didn't nutmeg anyone or carve through the whole defence but he did play well and run the show confidently. With Freeman hopefully not out for too long and having not lost any confidence, plus Ace now seeming back fit to compete we aren't light at 15 (where Grayson can also cover at a push). I just hope whatever the thinking that the communication with JG is good so he knows the thinking and what he has to do rather than being demotivated or overplaying when he does get a chance.

I can see JG going elsewhere, and I wouldn't blame him. The lack of gametime will be hampering his development now.

Really interesting selection and fingers crossed for a more competitive game as that's a very good and physical Ulster team.

I've always and still want Grayson to succeed, he has potential and clearly cares greatly about the club. However there is a style match with our game play. For me Biggar either had a terrible game last weekend or was the wrong fly half for Saints playing Racing. Ironically the pace and variety Russell brought is exactly what we needed (combined with a more competitive front row). Part of me thinks Furbank is better at full back and part of me can also see he could be the free flowing attacking fly half we really need (is this what Eddie Jones and Boyd see too?) That's not a criticism of Grayson but unfortunately even if he meets his potential that will never be him to the same extent.

It would hugely disappointing if James were to move on, echoes of Harry Mallinder I fear. We seem to have a number of players who have not made that crucial next step whether that be down to ability or opportunity.

Matevesi dropped? Hopefully that’s a message from Boyd that if you don’t play to the game plan you don’t play.

Feel a bit for Grayson. I’d have picked him at 10 for this game with Furbs 15 and Tuala on the bench. Hopefully he’ll stay patient.

Zero expectations going into this game - just making ourselves difficult to beat would be a good outcome.

Quote:

Saintfanh
Really interesting selection and fingers crossed for a more competitive game as that's a very good and physical Ulster team.
I've always and still want Grayson to succeed, he has potential and clearly cares greatly about the club. However there is a style match with our game play. For me Biggar either had a terrible game last weekend or was the wrong fly half for Saints playing Racing. Ironically the pace and variety Russell brought is exactly what we needed (combined with a more competitive front row). Part of me thinks Furbank is better at full back and part of me can also see he could be the free flowing attacking fly half we really need (is this what Eddie Jones and Boyd see too?) That's not a criticism of Grayson but unfortunately even if he meets his potential that will never be him to the same extent.

Bit harsh on Dan, both his and Russells performances were impacted by their respective forward packs. He wasn’t terrible just under enormous pressure from forwards who were in no way dominant. Russell by contrast had an armchair ride and could pull out his box of tricks which he did exceedingly well

The Ulster team looks handy.

Ulster: Lowry; Gilroy, Hume, McCloskey, McIlroy; Burns, Cooney; Warwick, Herring, M Moore, O'Connor, Henderson (capt), Marcus Rea, Timoney, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Andrew, McGrath, O'Toole, Treadwell, Carter, Jones, Doak, S Moore

Big ball carriers in the likes of Vermuleun and McClusky whilst still having the threat of the likes of Gilroy and Cooney.

Our best chance of qualifying is COVID cancellations in our favour.

Do they? Most of us have never heard of half their side

They’re well coached, they’re strong and winning in their back yard is a mountain


Styles make fights. Saints are all wrong for heavy French HC teams. We are 7/1 for this game, wrong price.



I think we might be a banana skin for them.

Quote:

TommySaint
Do they? Most of us have never heard of half their side.

Fair enough point and re Saints being a potential banana skin as Ulster crave consistency.
Lowry = the Ulster Kolbe according to Clermont fans after last weekend.
McIlroy is a slight but slippery wing but starred with assists and a try when Ireland U20 put 39 points on England U20 at Franklin's Gardens last year, so some of you might have seen him.
Hume is pushing Ringrose for the Ireland #13 shirt.
Cooney arguably the best-performing #9 in Ireland and the best in Europe after Dupont these last few years.
Herring might have been ousted from the Ireland team by the Leinster tyro hookers but is in good form.
Marty Moore is going well at #3 nowadays and is important.
O'Connor provides excellent ballast.
Henderson is in his comeback match after injury but will want to prove a point re missing out (partly to Lawes) in the tests in SA !
Marcus Rea seems to be emerging fast as a specialist #7.
Timoney is a strong and fast athlete on top form in the back row.
McGrath is the 3 x Lions test cap just coming back from over a year out injured.
O'Toole is very good in the loose for a THP.
Treadwell is a handy athlete to bring on in the 2nd row.
Jones was the Ireland U20 #6 when Harry Mallinder's England beat Ireland in the U20 RWC final.
Doak starred in the 2021 U20 6Nations. He is reserve #9 and kicker but can play #10, I believe. Confident lad (like most #9s, I suppose).

Hey. coolbawn, thanks for the info. Don’t read too much into what TommySaint says- he really doesn’t speak for us all.

Yeah, we'll start as underdogs on Friday evening, but you better believe we’re capable of upsetting those odds. Done it it before, will do it again. This time around? We'll see.

Hey Coolbawn

Thanks for the info

Higgy had no idea about them either, he’s just a grumpy old beardy weirdy who doesn’t like charisma


Looking forward to seeing them play as a 1/4 Northern Irishman !

Higgy what do you mean “doesn’t speak for us”


note he/she said FAIR POINT on both and then was kind enough to give me detail on the players


Your reply made zero sense, just be cool FFS, stop trying to find offence when it isn’t there, it’s really not hard



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:17:03:45:33 by TommySaint.

Quote:

higgy365
Hey. coolbawn, thanks for the info. Don’t read too much into what TommySaint says- he really doesn’t speak for us all.
.

Literally zero point in saying this, just yet more pettiness.

Coolnawn, great insight and gives context to how Ulster have been going. Look forward to watching even more so now.

Personally I think that is a very strong Ulster side. Lot's of Irish internationals there, not to mention Vermuelen.

Indeed looks a stringing team. We have won there before and are capable of winning again but I think Ulster will be too strong for us and get a good lead and we will end up chasing the game.

Hope the few that have made the trip have a good time. Enjoyed our trip to Ravenhill a few years ago and the welcome at Malone before the match.

Quote:

TommySaint
Hey Coolbawn
Thanks for the info

Higgy had no idea about them either, he’s just a grumpy old beardy weirdy who doesn’t like charisma


Looking forward to seeing them play as a 1/4 Northern Irishman !

Charisma? I've needed a laugh after the week I've had, and that provided it.

For what its worth I don't think Biggar was 100% when he started the game against Racing.

I also think Matevesi was playing the game plan, arguably overplaying but clearly the plan was to play fast and keep the ball moving. Little Oz made the point that his failed kick from our own line looked like it was an intentional play. If so it would be harsh to drop him for his mistakes given the credit in the bank.

My view would be some rest and rotation with the Premiership being the focus. I think we're getting to the point of knowing our best side but we also need to be cautious of playing some of those players into the ground. The coaches will know how each player is doing in terms of fitness and when they need a brake.

The chip kick had to have been intentional. He did the same against tigers - I think we got turned over and conceded 3 points soon after. Rory did the same against Sale and we conceded a try. So yeah, it’s exactly the game plan the coaches want, which is concerning.

I used to be such an optimist but I fear another drubbing. A team that has no kicking game and poor defence will always struggle against a well drilled team who have players who can step and make breaks.

All the best to Ace but zero game time and Friday night lights, under the high ball… good luck.

Covid is making a mess of this cup. Racing have been awarded a 28-0 win against Ospreys - a slightly worse result for them than they achieved last week - and there's talk of none of the French teams travelling to the UK because of French quarantine rules for when they return.

Presumably the rules of the competition allow for a team to win it without actually playing that many games, should their opponents keep forfeiting?

At least we (should) get some rugby this evening!

I'd like to see a good game from Ace, he's hard a hard time of it recently by the sound of it but it is a big ask with little prep - fingers crossed.

The chip or grubber has been used to great effect by some teams, the 50/22 rules means in general wingers are holding back a little more and so 9's (or whoever normally sweeps) comes into the line. Its also a good antidote to fast/offside defensive lines. However it does require a) good execution and b) everyone being on the same page as far as following up - otherwise you end up with a leaky defence if the chip is caught, which is what has happened to us a few times.

Sorry but there is no way the coaching staff are advocating or telling a front row forward to be kicking, chipping or whatever you want to call it 10 yards from our own goal line in the first 5 minutes of a big European game. Further up the park maybe, but we have plenty of guys who are far more capable of doing that than Sam. Not buying it was anything more than a complete brain far7

Sleights or Tuala have hardly played in last 6 months. Be interesting to see how they go after minimal game time.

Oh look at least it took 2 minutes this week before allowing a try!!! Defence is shocking

Standard European start

Ulster looking up for it
Great intensity

Unfortunately 3 mins gone and 7 down

What’s happened to our defence

Good to see Dingwall living up to his name!

Rubbish decision to chip, rubbish chase, rubbish tackle. Poor rugby all round and now back under pressure.

Looks like a PT

Jesus that was harsh

Painter taken over scrum half duties 😳

Definite rub of the green for Ulster tonight. No luck again here

We are dire.

Ulster playing really well but disappointing refereeing and commentary

Stop kicking the bloody ball away !

Too many youngsters in key positions at this level unfortunately. Our academy players will be fantastic in their peak but currently showing too much inexperience.

Our basics are just gobsmackingly poor.
Also I don’t feel the youngsters excuse is good enough anymore, running thin after three years



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:17:20:28:03 by Berkshire-Saint.

Quote:

TheGent
Too many youngsters in key positions at this level unfortunately. Our academy players will be fantastic in their peak but currently showing too much inexperience.

Academy players? Pretty sure they are all in the senior squad, pal.

Quote:

Saintfanh
Ulster playing really well but disappointing refereeing and commentary

It might be 'disappointing' but it's been absolutely correct - I would have been yelling for a PT had it been the other way.

Quote:

tmc1963

Quote:

Saintfanh
Ulster playing really well but disappointing refereeing and commentary

It might be 'disappointing' but it's been absolutely correct - I would have been yelling for a PT had it been the other way.

Agreed Mitchell was in a position to catch it and didn’t, consequence of his lack of execution



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:17:20:34:45 by Berkshire-Saint.

Another appalling restart surprise



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:17:20:36:18 by Berkshire-Saint.

Starting to put a few phases together
Defence tightening up

Great turn over by Sleights

Lowry is tonights BT darling !

Quote:

Saint Assange

Quote:

TheGent
Too many youngsters in key positions at this level unfortunately. Our academy players will be fantastic in their peak but currently showing too much inexperience.

Academy players? Pretty sure they are all in the senior squad, pal.

Obviously meant first team players that have graduated our academy.

We are not making any ground with ball in hand
Need Augustus to start second half

We do look small and lightweight

Any chance of getting near the Ulster line ?

Defence better than last week. We are still in the game at half time. Certainly not dire in my opinion.

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint

Quote:

tmc1963

Quote:

Saintfanh
Ulster playing really well but disappointing refereeing and commentary

It might be 'disappointing' but it's been absolutely correct - I would have been yelling for a PT had it been the other way.

Agreed Mitchell was in a position to catch it and didn’t, consequence of his lack of execution

Mitchell hits the ball up. It could have gone either way but in many games thats been given as a knock on.

Anyway somehow despite that penalty try and yellow card we're only 7 points down thanks to Furbank. Great to see Sleightholme back as well and running hard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:17:20:54:42 by Saintfanh.

We started poorly, but the last 10-15 mins was much better. Ulster also making a fair few errors which is helping. Defence is still too soft though.

To be honest, the pen try was three bad decisions in a row from the ref. They get a try, no scrum half led to the 3rd.

We are in it.

Only 7 pts down after being comprehensively outplayed for 40 mins and conceding 3 tries to 0 is a minor miracle.

Get the next score and you never know.

I like a ruck clear outs on the whole. Same old same old with a lot of our defence. I don’t know what Ian Vass does. Our kicking game is so poor. You are guaranteed that the ball will end up back in our half and 22.

We may well lose by a few but to reduce the fawning slightly for 40 mins is nice.

Too much caffeine in Mitchell’s half time drink

That turnover seemed to be against the change in mindset. Very long and not supporting weight.

In prem that would be pen to us



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:17:21:06:32 by SaintsAsh.

What is Dingwall doing. Clear your lines if your on your own. Ulster should be miles in front

Poor by Dingwall
Why do we mess about in our own 22

Clear the lines
Basic game management



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:17:21:06:49 by Deesaint.

Ribbans has been unable to find his form from last season

Quote:

Deesaint
Poor by Dingwall
Why do we mess about in our own 22

Clear the lines
Basic game management

We are a few percentages off in our decision making

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint
Ribbans has been unable to find his form from last season

Yeah I wonder if the long covid is a thing.

Commentary not noticing no release

That is so comically bad it actually sums us up at the minute

Ace doing an Ace

How embarrassing is this yet again?? Totally showing the gap between good European teams and Saints who are not in the same ground let alone on the same pitch!
Mountain to climb if going to get anything out of this game

That’s more like it. Here we go.

Quote:

Saint Assange

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint
That is so comically bad it actually sums us up at the minute

Its not us, it's the ref and commentary team. Keep up.

Sorry I misplaced the script 😂

Quote:

Saint Assange

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint
That is so comically bad it actually sums us up at the minute

Its not us, it's the ref and commentary team. Keep up.

The ref has had a good game, commentators are not bad either. A couple of things I dissagree with and a few things we have done badly.

But why be rude to a fellow fan?

You mighy have a different opinion but no need to be rude.

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint

Quote:

Saint Assange

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint
That is so comically bad it actually sums us up at the minute

Its not us, it's the ref and commentary team. Keep up.

Sorry I misplaced the script 😂

Ill send it you in the post

Have to say Furbank is having a decent game at 10

And I like this Ref. Not perfect but seems to have empathy with players and letting game play

Quote:

Dave Jackson
Have to say Furbank is having a decent game at 10
And I like this Ref. Not perfect but seems to have empathy with players and letting game play

+1

Agree with both Furbank and ref ok

Our breakdown play needs a lot of work
Really letting us down

No injuries probably the best result for Saints

Personally think we’re playing better this half. Still room for improvement and let down by silly mistakes but not the poor fayre served up last week.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:17:21:36:32 by Saint Kris.

Quote:

Saint Kris
Personally think we’re playing better this half. Still room for improvement and let down by silly mistakes but not the poor fair served up last week.

Agreed.

Ludlum is getting through a mountain of work. Silly individual errors have cost us dearly again.

Ludlam never gives up
Fantastic player

Skosan having a bit of a mare

Quote:

ajack
Ludlum is getting through a mountain of work. Silly individual errors have cost us dearly again.

Yeah, little knock ons here and there and silly errors at crucial times letting us down again. Still some good stuff at times, need to do more of it.

Vermuelen would be handy for us too.

Quote:

Deesaint
Ludlam never gives up
Fantastic player

Skosan having a bit of a mare

Keen to see what he offers. Has run in some very easy tries but we need to see what more he offers as the season progresses.

Ulster should have been ahead by a lot more if we're being honest.

That is a shame, excellent break and noone from Ulster were onside and Vermuelen turned us over again

Bench front row ineffective at the break down

Furbank improved, but kicking still so poor from hand.

I new that would spur Skosan on
Just to prove me wrong

A sneaky converted try for the win?

What a try!

Very good pick up and finish.

Score line is not a reflection of that performance. I’m not sure Ulster ever hit top gear.

Probably a good thing for us. Concentrate on the league, clearly dont have the squad for two competitions.

Good lessons against a very good team.

Better result than expected after the first 20 minutes. A bit more accuracy & fewer mistakes and we could have nicked it.

Much better second half, so much better against a very good Ulster team. Still a a bit of physicality missing particularly at breakdown but then Vermeulen is one of the best in the world over the ball and Iyogen is still very young. Really impressed by MItchell, Sleights, Ludlum, Augustus and Coles when he came on. Front row remains our biggest problem and at times a lack of size/physicality in the backs but I don't think that would be an issue if our front row was more physical.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:17:21:52:35 by Saintfanh.

More importantly the Ulster club and fans as well as the team were class tonight. Two great clubs battling it out, dont get better (apart fro us winning.) Now off for a few more pints.

Quote:

SaintsAsh
Probably a good thing for us. Concentrate on the league, clearly dont have the squad for two competitions.
Good lessons against a very good team.

I think that’s the only positive we can take, which I think is pretty sad and will we now take the benefit of only being in one competition?! I can only hope so

Hopefully gives us a bit of confidence going into Quins and Sarries. We will need to be near our best to come away with wins in those matches assuming they go ahead.

Much Better, still too many errors and silly pens but a lot better than last week that’s for sure. Ref was much better too although a few baffling decisions here and there. Thought the pen try was harsh and a debatable yellow. I really don’t understand when both sides are committing the same offence over and over again the ref chooses to penalise one side and not the other late in the game, e.g. closing gap at line out, they all do it. 3 soft tries too, think they were definitely beatable.

Quote:

SaintsAsh
A sneaky converted try for the win?

So sneaky we didn’t get to see it. A bit of pride. I think that what Lawes and Wood inspire.

We need to mix it up a bit - we keep running into a solid defence. Dinks over top, grubbers through so as to slow the rush defence
We don’t have the heavyweights to batter through so need to start outthinking teams

Quote:

Stevie Myler's right boot
We need to mix it up a bit - we keep running into a solid defence. Dinks over top, grubbers through so as to slow the rush defence
We don’t have the heavyweights to batter through so need to start outthinking teams

Right now I would take just being able to catch a restart and exit

As Boyd will say, plenty of learnings...
Quinns and Sarries next. Could be a difficult month.

Losing BP but, I think that flattered our performance. Other than a couple of exceptions, we seemed to really struggle to find a way through/round their defence. Scrums were solid but we lost the battle of the breakdowns which really hurt us and kept us on the back foot.

Agreed much better than last week
Another 5 minutes and we could have sneaked it

One thing we have to work on is our breakdown play
Not quick enough going forward
Not dynamic enough
And just not disturbing their ball making it far too easy

Thought Courtney and Lewis where immense

Much better than last week, but still a lot to work on. We are carried by some players while others make too many basic mistakes (Tuala I'm afraid for one).
As a general point we simply arent getting quick enough ball to consistently play the game we want to. And when this happens we lack the physical ball carriers to batter holes when a defence doesn't give us space. The clear out is really poor and we have to see more players jackaling like Ludlam.

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint

Quote:

SaintsAsh
Probably a good thing for us. Concentrate on the league, clearly dont have the squad for two competitions.
Good lessons against a very good team.

I think that’s the only positive we can take, which I think is pretty sad and will we now take the benefit of only being in one competition?! I can only hope so

I understand that feeling, but we have to be realistic.

We had Biggar and Freeman out so had to play a full back that is just back from injury and have one either on the bench or at 10 with our other 10 on the bench.

Can we afford another quality 10 and another quality full back?

Another injury or two and we will ve struggling, playing our best players in two comps means it is more likely that we get injuries, this will mean we will likely struggle in both competitions. If we had twice the cap I would want to try, but personally I would rather not split out resources.

Quote:

SaintsAsh

Quote:

Berkshire-Saint

Quote:

SaintsAsh
Probably a good thing for us. Concentrate on the league, clearly dont have the squad for two competitions.
Good lessons against a very good team.

I think that’s the only positive we can take, which I think is pretty sad and will we now take the benefit of only being in one competition?! I can only hope so

I understand that feeling, but we have to be realistic.

We had Biggar and Freeman out so had to play a full back that is just back from injury and have one either on the bench or at 10 with our other 10 on the bench.

Can we afford another quality 10 and another quality full back?

Another injury or two and we will ve struggling, playing our best players in two comps means it is more likely that we get injuries, this will mean we will likely struggle in both competitions. If we had twice the cap I would want to try, but personally I would rather not split out resources.

No I agree the ebb and flow of two competitions and injuries hasn’t necessarily gone our way, but need to kick on In the prem and if we don’t/can’t it will be a waste

I know it's frustrating (god knows I was screaming at the tv for most of the game) and we made loads of silly errors and I agree with everyone about our kicking game being utterly poor.

That said we came within 5 points of Ulster who I think they said have now won 26 out 29 home matches.

That wasn't good enough. We should do better. We should kick better. We should catch restarts. We shouldn't knock on.

But if we're so bad how did we finish so close? All this talk on here of a new DoR is just ridiculous. We're always terrible in Europe and we're third in the premiership. It may not end that way but that's where we are.

I thought Furbank had a good game but I cannot help but feel that Grayson at 10 and George at 15 would have been a better option.

Quote:

St Marcus
We are carried by some players while others make too many basic mistakes (Tuala I'm afraid for one). .

Not a great night for him, but bearing in mind that’s his first game of the season, out injured and has also had COVID. Big call to pick him at FB after being out so long

Quote:

Walks11

Quote:

St Marcus
We are carried by some players while others make too many basic mistakes (Tuala I'm afraid for one). .

Not a great night for him, but bearing in mind that’s his first game of the season, out injured and has also had COVID. Big call to pick him at FB after being out so long

I have always seems Tuala as flaky. He is an ok player but we need better to compete at top level.

Nice to get a point. And we we much better than last week. Bring on Quins

Quote:

TimperleySaint
I know it's frustrating (god knows I was screaming at the tv for most of the game) and we made loads of silly errors and I agree with everyone about our kicking game being utterly poor.
That said we came within 5 points of Ulster who I think they said have now won 26 out 29 home matches.

That wasn't good enough. We should do better. We should kick better. We should catch restarts. We shouldn't knock on.

But if we're so bad how did we finish so close? All this talk on here of a new DoR is just ridiculous. We're always terrible in Europe and we're third in the premiership. It may not end that way but that's where we are.

But why is being terrible in Europe acceptable?
I mentioned it earlier but personally I don’t think Ulster hit top gear and let us back in with penalities. As BoD said in post match commentary other teams in this competition would be sticking 40-50 on us based on our performance tonight.

I haven’t called for a change of DoR but can understand why people are frustrated and also the fact his contract is coming to an end it is a valid talking point

I don't think a change of some coaches is rediculous at end of season. 4 years is plenty. I think our league position will reflect reality come Feb/Mar. The coaching team need to be accountable for performance.

I was expecting a cricket score so I guess that was a good outcome. Lewis and Courts outstanding individual performances but as a team we’re shockingly bad. Next 2 games will give a better indication of where we are at. I think we’re somewhere between 6th and 9th in terms of best Prem teams and expect to lose both games badly - I hope I’m wrong as I’ll be at both games. Lost faith in the coaching team and looking forward to change. Would like to see at least 2 new props and a playing style with much more discipline and control, and a focus on executing the basics very well.

A spirited second half, can't complain about our commitment, but we still lack in our game plans and execution.

Quote:

TimperleySaint
But if we're so bad how did we finish so close? All this talk on here of a new DoR is just ridiculous. We're always terrible in Europe and we're third in the premiership. It may not end that way but that's where we are.

Perhaps we don’t want to be terrible in Europe. The facts are that our DoR is going to be out of contract very shortly and we will need a new one. And on a fans forum surely this is the place for supporters to discuss this.

Personally I’ve seen better from the Saints and would like better than I have seen in the last 3 years. Nothing annoys me more than year another game where we have conceded 3 tries in the first 20 minutes and have been almost out of sight. We kept the scoreboard ticking and stayed in touching distance and showed more resolve which is pleasing. However, it shouldn’t take a drubbing sat home. Today should be as bad as it gets in defeat.

Quote:

Saint Assange
A spirited second half, can't complain about our commitment, but we still lack in our game plans and execution.

There lies a large part of the issue.
I think many have been stating this since about 2015.
I am finally coming to the sad conclusion that we will consistently be also rans.

Not sure if it's still held but I seem to recall one of the club's objectives being for us to be the top team in Europe. Being more than there to make up the numbers would be a more realistic aspiration in the short term. Not sure these campaigns actually help us - we'd be better off in the next competition down where we'd be more likely to build some momentum rather than having it knocked out of us.

Yes Mark Darbon has stated this on a number of occasions.
Very admirable yet a very very misplaced statement.
Being anywhere near the top team in our own league would be progress after the last few years.
We are sadly a mile off.

Who is coaching the breakdown? We are so slow to clear out week after week with turn overs easy for the opposition. Surely this is a coaching issue and why hasn't it been resolved?

For me.
Good
Enjoyed the Mitchell and Furbs combo. Both had good games. Our back row was excellent and lineout not bad. Dingwall, a wall in defence as was Proctor.
Some good line defence that disrupted them
Oh dear:
Skosan aside from the try was a serious off day.
We died at the breakdown, turned over too many times, it was terrible.

Europe is an unhelpful distraction now, less said about France the better. Focus on the domestic campaign

I don’t see us being a viable European competitor as we don’t have the squad strength to compete with the French by virtue of the cap disparity and the Irish with their focus On shielding their players for the international team and then Europe. That said I’d much rather we focus on the Premiership. OUR Competition rather than anything else where with the exception of Exeter the size of your wallet brings you an empty trophy and with the covid sheet going on a trophy which is becoming more and more meaningless as weeks roll through.

A couple of observations that don't seem to have been made so far.

First the generosity of Ulster in not taking the kick at goal at the end - I thought that was a sign of class.

Secondly I haven't yet satisfied myself if Warbutons coaching commentary was patronising or if he was bidding for a coaching role at saints.

Quote:

Santiago
First the generosity of Ulster in not taking the kick at goal at the end - I thought that was a sign of class.

It wasn’t generous or classy. It was a completely rational decision that guaranteed Ulster a 5 point win. Kicking for goal risked losing the game for close to zero upside - why would they do that?

Quite agree, Statesman, perfectly rational decision. I remember Lobbe making a similar calculation for us once, and it was the right decision then as now.

Given they won by IMHO an iffy penalty try (yes, the game would’ve played out differently in who knows what direction after that but still…) that was a creditable, competitive performance from Saints and I’ll take that for now.

Quote:

Dragonboy
I don’t see us being a viable European competitor as we don’t have the squad strength to compete with the French by virtue of the cap disparity and the Irish with their focus On shielding their players for the international team and then Europe. That said I’d much rather we focus on the Premiership. OUR Competition rather than anything else where with the exception of Exeter the size of your wallet brings you an empty trophy and with the covid sheet going on a trophy which is becoming more and more meaningless as weeks roll through.

Ah the cap again ... yet numerous premiership sides didn't seem to have an issue with it last week.
I could have sworn that Exeter were European Champions recently but perhaps I was dreaming while all the excuses were being prepared.

Quote:

fleetg

Quote:

Dragonboy
I don’t see us being a viable European competitor as we don’t have the squad strength to compete with the French by virtue of the cap disparity and the Irish with their focus On shielding their players for the international team and then Europe. That said I’d much rather we focus on the Premiership. OUR Competition rather than anything else where with the exception of Exeter the size of your wallet brings you an empty trophy and with the covid sheet going on a trophy which is becoming more and more meaningless as weeks roll through.

Ah the cap again ... yet numerous premiership sides didn't seem to have an issue with it last week.
I could have sworn that Exeter were European Champions recently but perhaps I was dreaming while all the excuses were being prepared.

+1

We have put a team out there last night with 8 fully capped internationals with over 200 international caps between then. Out of the 7 uncapped players the remainder have played age group international rugby, Saxons or been involved in international training squads.

It is the very essence of sport that whilst you are on the field of play you have a chance. The raw materials are there to be competitive in one off games.

A few good performances.
Dodgy penalty try.
But we were second best.
And you can't score if you don't have the ball and you won't have the ball if you keep kicking it to the opposition

We were always second best (first half 38% possession!) but a couple of observations.

1. We kicked our penalties..... not our usual plan.... and were always remarkably in contention to win against a strong, abrasive European side. We could have lost 27-5 going for exciting 5m lineouts. Maybe we realised we would lose the ensuing lineout confrontation.... stats say we more than likely do... but I believe we should consider this plan going forward. Keep the scoreboard going, build the win; then cut loose and play for fun!

2. Other clubs breed strong, powerful back players who continually step up and their side loses nothing. Gilroy, Hume, Mcilroy, Doak... they keep coming like a conveyor belt. And yet as far as I know, and despite Dingwall's performances of late, we are pinning our hopes for a future strong, ball carrying, powerful attacking/defending back liner on one man ... Lichfield. Happy to be proved wrong.

3 Comments above focus on the penalty try as the cause of our loss... but seem to pass over Ace's embarrassing 'air-flap'. Too embarrassing to recall I suspect.

Overall, out muscled, out played but we kept in the match. Ridiculously, they got a 4-try bonus point and yet we could have stolen it. So perhaps not all doom and gloom

We started very poorly and gave away some very weak tries again but and it is a big but for me, we had a gameplan and stuck to it, okay kick the points when on offer won't please everyone especially those that go on about attractive rugby being more important than winning.

But we ended up at the final whistle in with a shot of a game that looked like we were going to get hammered in after 20 minutes.

Even as table toppers with a good side getting a LBP away from home against good Irish or French opposition is not a bad result.

We actually put up a fight this week that is a huge step up from last week.

Quote:

fleetg

Quote:

Dragonboy
I don’t see us being a viable European competitor as we don’t have the squad strength to compete with the French by virtue of the cap disparity and the Irish with their focus On shielding their players for the international team and then Europe. That said I’d much rather we focus on the Premiership. OUR Competition rather than anything else where with the exception of Exeter the size of your wallet brings you an empty trophy and with the covid sheet going on a trophy which is becoming more and more meaningless as weeks roll through.

Ah the cap again ... yet numerous premiership sides didn't seem to have an issue with it last week.
I could have sworn that Exeter were European Champions recently but perhaps I was dreaming while all the excuses were being prepared.

With the exception of Exeter

I still don't know what to make of the game.

We were dire in the first half. Unable to hold onto the ball and hardly broke the gain line. Yet somehow went into the break still in the game, only 7 points down when we were being soundly beaten.

On the flip side the penalty try and yellow was harsh and Mitchell in the bin left no sweeper so 14 points came from a harsh ref decision. But if Ulster hadn't been leading it would have been a travesty.

Our set piece held up well and helped keep us in the game.

2nd half we looked a better. As mentioned the half backs and backrow plus Dingwall stood out. Sleightholme's commitment shone too.

Despite not deserving it, we somehow could have snatched victory at the end. But another harsh penalty for double movement by Courtney ended that.

The slowness of support players to get to the breakdown and clear out has really cost us in both European games. It was an issue before but Europe has really emphasised the issue. Very surprised the coaches haven't picked it up. It stalled any momentum. That type of thing really wouldn't be allowed at Tigers, Sale, Exeter and Sarries. It's about player intensity and commitment off the ball. It's noticeable the players who do make it back. It's often Lawes, Ludlam, Ribbans chasing back to prevent a score or cut off the kick behind the post which tells you a lot about commitment and desire. I want to see that fight in all the forwards. I've raised before whether our fitness is where it needs to be.

I loved seeing Sleightholme do everything to try and twist the player from scoring the try or getting Lowry's shirt by his finger tips and flinging him into touch. Borthwick has quickly instilled that intensity into Tigers. It's mindset and coaching expectations. Throughout the Boyd era we have tolerated lower intensity.

Which Tigers stood out for intensity in the Tigers v Bordeaux game? None of them. All the Tigers were playing at high intensity off the ball. Same in the Sale v Ospreys game. Same in the Exeter v Montpellier game.

That some of our players stand out so obviously for their intensity tells us a lot.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:18:10:09:59 by Saint Maul.

The thing that struck me most about this game (and those last week with non-English referees) is how terribly pretty much ALL Premiership sides fail to adapt to a different refereeing interpretation at the break down. This isn't something restricted to this season it's been going on for years and it's a similar issue with the National team. Why as a "Nation?" do we seem so unable to adapt? I get that there's nuance but judging by the last couple of weeks if you have a French or URC referee then the defending side seems to have the advantage and things like actually going for the ball, supporting body-weight, not trawling, etc are largely ignored. Given if those things are allowed it's incredibly hard to compete it's surely better to stand-off the breakdown and try and play the opposition at their own game when you're defending? and yet we either don't seem to do it (that's exactly what Saracens tried against Edinburgh) or still aren't comfortable with the referees interpretation. Hoping for consistency is a fools errand so should we as a League be doing some collective homework on how non-Premiership referees referee the game?

Hard to know what to take from the game otherwise. I though Ulster were cruising to start with and poor in the second half although as ever not sure to the degree to which that is a reflection on Saints performance or their own? Some very good individual Saints performances.

Quote:

fleetg
I could have sworn that Exeter were European Champions recently but perhaps I was dreaming while all the excuses were being prepared.

How many times in the future do you think a Premiership side will be able to play the neutral European SF at their home ground and the away Final at the closest other Premiership club to them against a side unable to train the week before the game and missing a number of their best players to Covid? It's a great achievement by Chiefs but it needs a mammoth slice of context before suggesting they've proved it can be done by a Premiership team in usual circumstances. That's not so much an excuse as a reality. If we judge teams based on that standard you have to do it with the same exceptions just as many would say "we could have won it if we'd broken the cap like Saracens"

[youtu.be]

Not much to be drawn from these. Main points argued over, to my mind, still inconclusive from the "highlights" here.

One good family Christmas Game to play just after the post-dinner Port, is to watch a Saints European game and then decide who in the Saints Team, on performance not hype, would have made the Team of the Match. For example Furbank or Burns; Mitchell or Cooney? Wood or Vermeulen?

Me? I will have another Port!

Our biggest issue is that we are one trick ponies and predictable - we kept getting turned over because we weren’t breaking the gain line and ran out of support players. As teams know we always look to go out the back to the edge they just blitz us all the time. We can’t outmuscle teams so we need to outthink them which we are failing to do
The 50-22 rule has created a load of space behind the main defensive line - it needs to be exploited

Not 100% behind the ‘ one trick pony’
However I did pick up that we stick to a routine when we receive a kick off
Normally taking the ball in our 22
We then pop the ball to a pod of forwards twice
Before passing to 10 to clear the lines

It is so predictable that opponents are targeting the second pod and getting success

Somehow Courts and Ribeye made the team of the week which hasn't made Ulster fans happy given they had no players in there. I think Courts is fair enough, he was immense as always but otherwise while he did some good things there must have been a better performing second row across the games.

I was impressed with Furbank, especially his role as 9 for ten minutes. I think it was generally a case that we didn't adapt to the ref very well but I can't agree with the yellow/penalty try. I think Mitchell will be frustrated he didn't do better and catch it after a good read but it was definitely an attempt at a catch rather than a slap down.

Ace did look rusty sadly although better after he returned from his HIA, maybe had a Red Bull while he was off.

The slow start was very frustrating as we played well in patches and did well to keep the scoreboard ticking over. Furbank kicked pretty well but his radar seemed to go askew in the last few kicks which also made a difference.

Not sure Ulster not taking the kick at the end was calculated as much as they already had the bonus point and with us taking nothing from the first game letting us have a LBP won't make any difference.

Big ask to go to Ulster and get a result but on balance I'm not that disappointed by the final score or much of the game, just that poor start.

Given the frequency of slow starts - has our warm up routine been questioned or challenged does anyone know?

I recall a game, back in the Jim/Dorian days when apparently Dorian told Courtney he was the heartbeat of the team and to set the pace. From the kick off, I remember an almighty clattering of the opponent who caught the kick, and we went on to win.

Or will I walk out of the shower in a minute, it all having been a dream?

Happy Christmas all.

Quote:

Longers
Given the frequency of slow starts - has our warm up routine been questioned or challenged does anyone know?
I recall a game, back in the Jim/Dorian days when apparently Dorian told Courtney he was the heartbeat of the team and to set the pace. From the kick off, I remember an almighty clattering of the opponent who caught the kick, and we went on to win.

Or will I walk out of the shower in a minute, it all having been a dream?

Happy Christmas all.

Perhaps we should incorporate some form of stimulation so the team is mentally switched on when the game starts.

Something like that feeling when the dentist first enters the mouth with the high speed drill, or that snap of rubber gloves as the Doctor advances to make his examination.

Sure there will be other examples

And Happy Christmas

Ps you been on holiday ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:20:15:16:23 by Deesaint.

Getting one in the box like Root!

Do we need Red Bull sponsorship (other dangerous combinations of sugar and caffeine are available)?

On a serious note there does seem to be an issue with, I don't know, motivation? Clearly the likes of Ludlam and Lawes are up for every single game they play and I don't doubt for a second that any other Saints player is ever not motivated for any game. But there do seem to be games they are more 'switched on' for. Others we seem to get caught napping and have to claw back, how well the opposition play or how good they are determining whether we get away with it or not. Other games we've started well and then seemed to switch off. Boyd keeps talking about good and bad patches and getting closer to the full game performance - is it just a mental thing and if so where does that come from?

We seemed to struggle without crowds (although the way the squad was split clearly didn't help either), then seemed to improve when crowds came back only to drop off again.

Is the mental side our biggest issue and if so how is it fixed? As romantic as it is I don't think it is all about some figurehead captain making a big speech before the game or half time a la Sexton in the Heineken Cup final. We've talked before about how more leadership is always good but I don't think we're clearly lacking there (when we have a full squad) with Biggar, Lawes, Ludlam and Dingwall really coming on too.

Quote:

Deesaint

Quote:

Longers
Given the frequency of slow starts - has our warm up routine been questioned or challenged does anyone know?
I recall a game, back in the Jim/Dorian days when apparently Dorian told Courtney he was the heartbeat of the team and to set the pace. From the kick off, I remember an almighty clattering of the opponent who caught the kick, and we went on to win.

Or will I walk out of the shower in a minute, it all having been a dream?

Happy Christmas all.

Perhaps we should incorporate some form of stimulation so the team is mentally switched on when the game starts.

Something like that feeling when the dentist first enters the mouth with the high speed drill, or that snap of rubber gloves as the Doctor advances to make his examination.

Sure there will be other examples

And Happy Christmas

Ps you been on holiday ?

Mmmm. Sort of! Naughty step.

Happy Christmas to you and yours, too.

And a jolly New Year.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:12:20:17:48:56 by Longers.

Quote:

Matthew
Being more than there to make up the numbers would be a more realistic aspiration in the short term.

The great problem of modern politics too. No one wants to hear the truth even assuming you have it to say. I'm guessing that if most DoRs/Head Coaches in the Premiership gave their honest assessment of the clubs chances they'd be derided for not being supportive/having faith in the club etc.