Saints v Bristol Match Thread - Teams up 2nd April

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:07:09:17:17 by Saint Ted.

Congrats to George Hendy. Has clearly impressed in the Premiership Cup games.

It's a must win for Saints v a Bristol side with their big guns back. Should be tasty.

Also note that Bristol are facing a£400k problem with salary cap and have started off loading some players, Attwood being one.

Let's hope their thoughts are elsewhere come Saturday.

Great to see T Freeman in the starting line up.

I think that is our first choice back line and pretty much there with our pack.

It’s now or never!

I see Pat Lam has gone with a 4/4 split on the bench again.

Bristol will be very dangerous with their 3 star backs now fit again. Hopefully we can continue our aggressive play from last week in both defence and attack. If we can get to them we know they can be fragile.

A loss ends any slim hope we may have. We’ve got pretty much our strongest side, a couple of injuries withstanding so full on 80 minutes required and keep the run going.

A solid Bristol side with their ‘big names’ in the backs and some tough nuts in the pack. On paper they won’t be easy to beat but they’ve proved a bit flaky this year and are a little low on confidence. Recent issues around the cap have triggered rumours of discontent so we might just be playing them at the right time. Or not! Either way, two well matched sides and I’m hoping that Saints can continue where they left off last week and deliver a good W to keep our hopes alive.

Sale's defeat last night was helpful.

It was. Saracens looked very efficient but not unbeatable. However today we need to show similar levels of physicality to that game, only last weeks performance would be close to competing.

Hi is anyone else having issues listening to this on BBC radio northampton/bristol? All I can get is football. I had the same issue the other week too! Very frustrating

It’s on bbc radio Northampton 2 today.

Is there a worst team than saints at restarts?

Did Yann Thomas get the ball to the line?

Doesn’t matter because the ref says he did, but it looked short to me.

Have to say, imho most referees would have given Dan Biggar a red card early in that half.

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Ogee
Have to say, imho most referees would have given Dan Biggar a red card early in that half.

Yep, i agree, that should of been a Red all day long

I am not at the game because I am working, what did Biggar do?

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SaintsAsh
I am not at the game because I am working, what did Biggar do?

In the eyes of all 4 officials, nothing.

Good win and important for the play off push. Maybe not quite as ruthless as they could have been but a really good performance none the less.

COYS!

Impressed with us today. Not sure Bristol's defence was up to much and some soft tried conceded, but overall could have had a couple more, shame Freeman's try (correctly) ruled out, would have been try of the season contender. Biggar and the centres all had good games. Quick ball helped.

Saints looked pretty good again, but those two yellows against Brizzle appeared to take them out of the game, and Saints took advantage to get well ahead. There is absolutely no question Saints can attack with the best of them. But going forwards the question is how well they can defend. And avoid needless pens.

Don’t forget we had three”tries” chalked off before we finally scored.

Saints flying in Boyd’s last few games. Funny old world.

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Stockers

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SaintsAsh
I am not at the game because I am working, what did Biggar do?

In the eyes of all 4 officials, nothing.

Not true

Ludlam and Lawes is a truly world class pair of flankers and makes a huge difference to the teams output. Today they were both immense, as they will be most weeks.

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Ogee
Have to say, imho most referees would have given Dan Biggar a red card early in that half.

Tackled the guys shoulder and slipped up. Never ever a red.

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herbie85
Impressed with us today. Not sure Bristol's defence was up to much and some soft tried conceded, but overall could have had a couple more, shame Freeman's try (correctly) ruled out, would have been try of the season contender. Biggar and the centres all had good games. Quick ball helped.

Their reserve 12 was a liability in defence and we exploited it. Time and time again. Bravo to the coaches and players.

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Stockers

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SaintsAsh
I am not at the game because I am working, what did Biggar do?

In the eyes of all 4 officials, nothing.

Not quite right as he was penalised albeit only a penalty given. He hit high on Randrada and Dickson deemed the initial hit was on ball riding up and hitting chin secondary. I thought it was probably the right decision not to award red albeit probably should have had a yellow as a minimum. Not much difference between that and the Bristol player who after much debate did receive yellow. Another day another ref both could have been red. Neither was clear cut so yellows would have been right call imo, Dan was fortunate not to receive a card.

A good win against a dangerous side, they are not quite the side they were last season but even so a good win, hope continues, a Glos loss helps things too. Hopefully Api & Ribbans are ok

Dan hit him at chest height
Dan was having to lean back as Bristol player lead with his forearm high on Dans chest
This impact plus hitting the ball moved his arm upwards which caused some impact to the head

I’m amazed at all the commentators and supporters calling for red
The game now just seems to focus on whether a player should be sent off or not
Really is boiling down to lowest denominator

I think rugby has moved forward in leaps and bounds regarding safety
But some still look like they want to be the moral crusaders

Great game
Lawes and Ludlum have lifted the intensity hugely
Which is allowing the team to play

Totally different with those two in the team



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:02:17:36:54 by Deesaint.

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Deesaint
Dan hit him at chest height
Dan was having to lean back as Bristol player lead with his forearm high on Dans chest
This impact plus hitting the ball moved his arm upwards which caused some impact to the head

I’m amazed at all the commentators and supporters calling for red
The game now just seems to focus on whether a player should be sent off or not
Really is boiling down to lowest denominator

I think rugby has moved forward in leaps and bounds regarding safety
But some still look like they want to be the moral crusaders

Great game
Lawes and Ludlum have lifted the intensity hugely
Which is allowing the team to play

Totally different with those two in the team

+1 spot on

I wonder what Paul Hill thought of his card comparing it with Bristol s kick off when the jumper jumped and punched the ball forward stopping us catch it. Not even trying to catch or palm the ball back.

We are still in with a good chance of top four after Gloucester lost today. Still expect they will get another four points tomorrow for their cancelled game.

Enjoyed that. Good win against a strong Bristol team who troubled Sarries last week. Good momentum going into the last few games. You never know………

Well said DeeSaint

Brilliant win yet some are more bothered about a marginal high tackle by one of OUR players


Meldrew Central round here

Hopefully with no game next week those injuries may have time to clear. George’s HIA must be a worry. With both API and Dave R looking in a bad way would be needing Moony and Coles

A much needed breather after a hectic game. The Bristol players were on their knees at the death, so too some of the Saints. I thought Auterac was off so was surprised to see him getting significant game time and delighted to see the effort and commitment he showed. Hilly was good too, the deliberate knock on was a ruse to avoid an 80 min stint I suggest!
A great atmosphere at the gardens, it must have sounded good on TV. Api and Ribbs on the pitch after, I think Api looked OK, not sure about Dave, he looked unhappy. We’ll see how the break helps I guess.

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Sir Hector
Hilly was good too, the deliberate knock on was a ruse to avoid an 80 min stint I suggest!

I did wonder myself if he was taking matters into his own hands after 66 mins on the field! :-)

Really enjoyed the game today and very pleased with the result, particularly after the first 10 minutes or so indicated it was going to be one of those games where we concede early and then lose having failed to turn lots of pressure into lots of points.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:02:19:01:05 by Matthew.

Thought biggar was lucky not to get a card

Over all, solid performance all round. Any thoughts on the 'Charge down' near the end?

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SaintGinge
Thought biggar was lucky not to get a card
Over all, solid performance all round. Any thoughts on the 'Charge down' near the end?

I'd say lucky not to be reviewed - looked to me like there was head contact, but probably nothing more significant than a penalty.

Without being able to review I thought Biggar was lucky not to get a card and, by comparison, the Bristol player carded for a high tackle was a bit unlucky to have received one.

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Matthew

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SaintGinge
Thought biggar was lucky not to get a card
Over all, solid performance all round. Any thoughts on the 'Charge down' near the end?

I'd say lucky not to be reviewed - looked to me like there was head contact, but probably nothing more significant than a penalty.

Without being able to review I thought Biggar was lucky not to get a card and, by comparison, the Bristol player carded for a high tackle was a bit unlucky to have received one.

Not quite sure - I may have misunderstood your comment - but the Biggar incident was reviewed. It seemed to me as though there was quite a difference of opinion between Rose and Dickson.

Any knock on during a tackle/pass now seems to be treated as a deliberate act, so unfortunate but no argument.

We won. I'm happy.

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Spockst
Ludlam and Lawes is a truly world class pair of flankers and makes a huge difference to the teams output. Today they were both immense, as they will be most weeks.

^^ this. thought Lewis was as good as he can be, and Courtney's offload for the Hutch try.... wow.

Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Best analysis I've seen yet of this "incident"

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Longers

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Matthew

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SaintGinge
Thought biggar was lucky not to get a card
Over all, solid performance all round. Any thoughts on the 'Charge down' near the end?

I'd say lucky not to be reviewed - looked to me like there was head contact, but probably nothing more significant than a penalty.

Without being able to review I thought Biggar was lucky not to get a card and, by comparison, the Bristol player carded for a high tackle was a bit unlucky to have received one.

Not quite sure - I may have misunderstood your comment - but the Biggar incident was reviewed. It seemed to me as though there was quite a difference of opinion between Rose and Dickson.

Any knock on during a tackle/pass now seems to be treated as a deliberate act, so unfortunate but no argument.

We won. I'm happy.

Sorry, I'd meant that the late challenge on Hendy towards the end of the game looked to go unreviewed!

And lost amongst the game was the commentary by Christian Day. He is becoming a very good commentator. Great to have him covering a match.

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SaintsAsh
I am not at the game because I am working, what did Biggar do?

[streamable.com]

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

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KingoftheHill

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

Irrespective of the opinions about Biggar's tackle, the upshot was clear for all to see and watch. The referee, together with the TMO awarded a penalty. No more.

It was suggested by the commentary team on TV that the TMO felt it might be a red card and was trying to push Dickson towards that decision. I didn't feel that, but did think Biggar lucky as we have seen tackles like that result in a red card.

But like any post-match score line, the outcome is clear. Whatever we think. The ref did not think it was a red card - so can we move on? Please?

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Longers

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KingoftheHill

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

Irrespective of the opinions about Biggar's tackle, the upshot was clear for all to see and watch. The referee, together with the TMO awarded a penalty. No more.

It was suggested by the commentary team on TV that the TMO felt it might be a red card and was trying to push Dickson towards that decision. I didn't feel that, but did think Biggar lucky as we have seen tackles like that result in a red card.

But like any post-match score line, the outcome is clear. Whatever we think. The ref did not think it was a red card - so can we move on? Please?

I suppose the deliberate slap forward from the kick off at the start of the game that should have resulted in yellow and the Harding tackle that could also have been red didn’t warrant a comment from the two eyed Bristolians. And perhaps we’ll also ignore the late charge on Hendy after he’d kicked the ball away. So if we are being even handed and with a stricter ref, a red card a piece with also 3 yellow cards to Bristol to Saints 1. Swings and roundabouts I guess

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Walks11

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Longers

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KingoftheHill

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

Irrespective of the opinions about Biggar's tackle, the upshot was clear for all to see and watch. The referee, together with the TMO awarded a penalty. No more.

It was suggested by the commentary team on TV that the TMO felt it might be a red card and was trying to push Dickson towards that decision. I didn't feel that, but did think Biggar lucky as we have seen tackles like that result in a red card.

But like any post-match score line, the outcome is clear. Whatever we think. The ref did not think it was a red card - so can we move on? Please?

I suppose the deliberate slap forward from the kick off at the start of the game that should have resulted in yellow and the Harding tackle that could also have been red didn’t warrant a comment from the two eyed Bristolians. And perhaps we’ll also ignore the late charge on Hendy after he’d kicked the ball away. So if we are being even handed and with a stricter ref, a red card a piece with also 3 yellow cards to Bristol to Saints 1. Swings and roundabouts I guess

You highlight the issue - what constitutes an offence?

I have no argument with the moments in the game you mention. But since I have been unable to understand many refereeing and TMO decisions over the past ?? yrs I have got to a point where I accept them. Warts and all. ( I may shout at the TV, however!)

We are playing some beautiful attacking rugby.

Imagine our attacking game combined with a defence coach of Shaun Edwards. Then you'd have a formidable title winning team! Still Quins showed last season you can still win the title whilst conceding a shed-load of tries.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:03:10:44:25 by Saint Maul.

I think that by and large our defence has improved and become pretty good now. That’s not to say it’s impenetrable, but if we focussed on defence above all else we would be missing a lot of the exciting, heads up rugby we are enjoying. Hutch and Dingers have a good relationship now in defence and the big holes and turnstile arms are a thing of the past. We shouldn’t dismiss high quality attacking play by the opposition that unlocks our defence or creates an overlap. I really don’t want to swap our current style of rapier attack for one on brick wall and bludgeon defence.
On a different note, Dan is very much inclined to block attackers down his channel, jumping up to receive them and dragging them down rather than drive in low. You can’t blame him, he’s going to come off second best to any back row or twelve given a 15m run up. He’s not a Dan Lydiate or Sam Underhill. His technique also prevents an easy off-load. However, like his England counterpart Farrell, standing up in the tackle leaves you vulnerable to contacting the opponent’s head and the consequences thereof. I think Dan’s technique is very marginal, Farrell’s is just plain dangerous. I’m not sure what the solution is but Dan and Ian Vass need to work something out and fix the issue or we’ll be hearing calls for cards every time he plays.

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KingoftheHill

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

As is your response King!

One could argue that Radradra was dangerously leading with the elbow/lower arm into the tackle which caused Biggar to ride up and then bounce off. If Radradra had made contact with Biggar's head first (and we are talking about millimetres here) red card!

But this is all academic. The officials reviewed it, decided that it was a lower end offence and only a penalty, despite the TMO trying to persuade the other three that it was a sending off offence. TMO overruled by the ref and not the only time in this match.

Need to move on.

Some very sore loser Bristol fans


Lads you were owned by a much better side


We would have beaten you with 14 men anyway


Take the L and move on, good luck next season

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Saint Maul
We are playing some beautiful attacking rugby.
Imagine our attacking game combined with a defence coach of Shaun Edwards. Then you'd have a formidable title winning team! Still Quins showed last season you can still win the title whilst conceding a shed-load of tries.

Defence was good yesterday I thought, it’s really still the front row that might come unstuck against Tigers or Sarries. Fingers crossed they don’t.

I thought the defence was OK
Definitely improving
Centre Chanel’s much tighter
Line speed improving
However we lost our way several times in the outside channels
We just didn’t get enough men in position to cover the attack and fell off a few attempted tackles
Work in progress but huge improvement

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Spockst
Some very sore loser Bristol fans

Lads you were owned by a much better side


We would have beaten you with 14 men anyway


Take the L and move on, good luck next season

This comes across as being written by a 14 year old. If you don't think a side missing the starting lions 10 for 60 minutes isn't severely impacted then I'm not sure how many games you've seen. Saints clearly more dangerous and the centre combination was exceptional. Flip side being you're likely to find out how much of an impact Biggar missing will have as he also caught Vui flush in the head with his shoulder on 77 minutes with another high tackle so I'd be astonished if he isn't in front of the citing commissioner this week.

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Deesaint
I thought the defence was OK
Definitely improving
Centre Chanel’s much tighter
Line speed improving
However we lost our way several times in the outside channels
We just didn’t get enough men in position to cover the attack and fell off a few attempted tackles
Work in progress but huge improvement

Agreed.

We do seem to stay quite narrow when the opposition have the ball - is this confidence, or lack of?
Why do the centres remain so close to rucks rather than moving back out towards the centre of the pitch? Is their pace needed there?

As you say, huge improvement. I no longer question Hutch's tackling!

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Spockst
Some very sore loser Bristol fans

Lads you were owned by a much better side


We would have beaten you with 14 men anyway


Take the L and move on, good luck next season

If Biggar had seen red then I doubt you would have, the 6N proved that you guys don't really play well when he isn't in the team.
I bet you'll all be praying he doesn't get cited now

Now that I think of it, Bristol yesterday reminded me a lot of ourselves maybe a year or so ago. Lots of exciting play, but time and time again let down by the set piece. How many times did their lineout fail yesterday? By contrast, I don't think we lost a lineout or scrum, even when scrummaging with 7 while Hill was on the naughty step.

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Stockers

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KingoftheHill

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

As is your response King!

One could argue that Radradra was dangerously leading with the elbow/lower arm into the tackle which caused Biggar to ride up and then bounce off. If Radradra had made contact with Biggar's head first (and we are talking about millimetres here) red card!

But this is all academic. The officials reviewed it, decided that it was a lower end offence and only a penalty, despite the TMO trying to persuade the other three that it was a sending off offence. TMO overruled by the ref and not the only time in this match.

Need to move on.

Interesting point. Is leading with the shoulder in itself illegal? Obviously the elbow is, but the shoulder? If a shoulder charge isn't a legal tackle (unless you are Owen Farrell or any other Saracens' player judging from the game against Sale) then why is a shoulder charge by the ball-carrier treated as legal? I think in the laws the only way to fend off a would-be tackler is by way of a hand-off. Now whether a shoulder by the ball carrier is legal may be beside the point if player safety is actually the consideration. How often does the ball carrier dip in order to present the point of the shoulder and so make the tackler end up going high? And we then see the officials struggling to apply the high tackle framework and the ball carrier and/or tackler taking a hit to the head.

We had a wonderful attacking game with both sides playing exciting rugby and scoring some glorious tries. It's a shame non-Saints posters, who never come onto our Board otherwise, seem solely interested in foul play rather than celebrating a hugely entertaining game.

Certainly doesn't come across as bon homie between rival fans and more like trying to inflame it into an issue.

I'd suggest ignoring them. It only works if they get bites.

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Longers

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Walks11

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KingoftheHill

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

Irrespective of the opinions about Biggar's tackle, the upshot was clear for all to see and watch. The referee, together with the TMO awarded a penalty. No more.

It was suggested by the commentary team on TV that the TMO felt it might be a red card and was trying to push Dickson towards that decision. I didn't feel that, but did think Biggar lucky as we have seen tackles like that result in a red card.

But like any post-match score line, the outcome is clear. Whatever we think. The ref did not think it was a red card - so can we move on? Please?

I suppose the deliberate slap forward from the kick off at the start of the game that should have resulted in yellow and the Harding tackle that could also have been red didn’t warrant a comment from the two eyed Bristolians. And perhaps we’ll also ignore the late charge on Hendy after he’d kicked the ball away. So if we are being even handed and with a stricter ref, a red card a piece with also 3 yellow cards to Bristol to Saints 1. Swings and roundabouts I guess

You highlight the issue - what constitutes an offence?

I have no argument with the moments in the game you mention. But since I have been unable to understand many refereeing and TMO decisions over the past ?? yrs I have got to a point where I accept them. Warts and all. ( I may shout at the TV, however!)

I think in a roundabout sort of way that’s what I was alluding to. He was lenient and allowed both sides to ‘get away’ with some of the moments mentioned. As long as he is consistent within the game I think that’s ok and think by and large he was. Another ref may have seen all of them differently, so what

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Walks11

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

Irrespective of the opinions about Biggar's tackle, the upshot was clear for all to see and watch. The referee, together with the TMO awarded a penalty. No more.

It was suggested by the commentary team on TV that the TMO felt it might be a red card and was trying to push Dickson towards that decision. I didn't feel that, but did think Biggar lucky as we have seen tackles like that result in a red card.

But like any post-match score line, the outcome is clear. Whatever we think. The ref did not think it was a red card - so can we move on? Please?

I suppose the deliberate slap forward from the kick off at the start of the game that should have resulted in yellow and the Harding tackle that could also have been red didn’t warrant a comment from the two eyed Bristolians. And perhaps we’ll also ignore the late charge on Hendy after he’d kicked the ball away. So if we are being even handed and with a stricter ref, a red card a piece with also 3 yellow cards to Bristol to Saints 1. Swings and roundabouts I guess

You highlight the issue - what constitutes an offence?

I have no argument with the moments in the game you mention. But since I have been unable to understand many refereeing and TMO decisions over the past ?? yrs I have got to a point where I accept them. Warts and all. ( I may shout at the TV, however!)

I think in a roundabout sort of way that’s what I was alluding to. He was lenient and allowed both sides to ‘get away’ with some of the moments mentioned. As long as he is consistent within the game I think that’s ok and think by and large he was. Another ref may have seen all of them differently, so what

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Saint Maul
We had a wonderful attacking game with both sides playing exciting rugby and scoring some glorious tries. It's a shame non-Saints posters, who never come onto our Board otherwise, seem solely interested in foul play rather than celebrating a hugely entertaining game.
Certainly doesn't come across as bon homie between rival fans and more like trying to inflame it into an issue.

I'd suggest ignoring them. It only works if they get bites.

It’s called Healyism

Small people

I thought Freeman was awful for the first 10 mins, he should have stopped Thacker for that first try but he definitely improved after that. Then on the way home I heard his interview on the radio, turns out he was struggling at the start due to lack of playing time,

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

Irrespective of the opinions about Biggar's tackle, the upshot was clear for all to see and watch. The referee, together with the TMO awarded a penalty. No more.

It was suggested by the commentary team on TV that the TMO felt it might be a red card and was trying to push Dickson towards that decision. I didn't feel that, but did think Biggar lucky as we have seen tackles like that result in a red card.

But like any post-match score line, the outcome is clear. Whatever we think. The ref did not think it was a red card - so can we move on? Please?

I suppose the deliberate slap forward from the kick off at the start of the game that should have resulted in yellow and the Harding tackle that could also have been red didn’t warrant a comment from the two eyed Bristolians. And perhaps we’ll also ignore the late charge on Hendy after he’d kicked the ball away. So if we are being even handed and with a stricter ref, a red card a piece with also 3 yellow cards to Bristol to Saints 1. Swings and roundabouts I guess

You highlight the issue - what constitutes an offence?

I have no argument with the moments in the game you mention. But since I have been unable to understand many refereeing and TMO decisions over the past ?? yrs I have got to a point where I accept them. Warts and all. ( I may shout at the TV, however!)

I think in a roundabout sort of way that’s what I was alluding to. He was lenient and allowed both sides to ‘get away’ with some of the moments mentioned. As long as he is consistent within the game I think that’s ok and think by and large he was. Another ref may have seen all of them differently, so what

A good degree of ex player empathy at play I thought. Both for the offences that might have been harsher punished, and also picking up some skullduggery on the floor.

I liked the way he reffed the game.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:03:15:23:55 by Sans Culottes.

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Walks11

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Longers

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KingoftheHill

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

Irrespective of the opinions about Biggar's tackle, the upshot was clear for all to see and watch. The referee, together with the TMO awarded a penalty. No more.

It was suggested by the commentary team on TV that the TMO felt it might be a red card and was trying to push Dickson towards that decision. I didn't feel that, but did think Biggar lucky as we have seen tackles like that result in a red card.

But like any post-match score line, the outcome is clear. Whatever we think. The ref did not think it was a red card - so can we move on? Please?

I suppose the deliberate slap forward from the kick off at the start of the game that should have resulted in yellow and the Harding tackle that could also have been red didn’t warrant a comment from the two eyed Bristolians. And perhaps we’ll also ignore the late charge on Hendy after he’d kicked the ball away. So if we are being even handed and with a stricter ref, a red card a piece with also 3 yellow cards to Bristol to Saints 1. Swings and roundabouts I guess

Agree. At first it seemed it may have been a shoulder to the chin. But I think the rationale was Biggar started low and actually made contact with the ball which Radradra was carrying in front of him at chest height.
Going past that Saints had at least two tries (correctly) chalked off but were very near misses. So Saints could easily have had a few more scores in the bank. I was surprised that apparent knock-on from the initial kickoff was not reviewed. The commentators thought there was something there as well. Sure looked review-worthy.

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Saint Gordo

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Walks11

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Longers

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KingoftheHill

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Aberavon Wizard
Not sure that I agree with the condemnation of Biggar’s ‘tackle’ early in the game. I see a very large RadRadra running at pace into a almost static Dan who attempts to wrap. Contact was minimal and I thought in real time rather than slow motion there was nothing in it. Penalty looked to be a good call by Dickson.

Yeap, that's about as one-eyed as you can get. Open the other eye and it's a red card 9 times out of ten

Irrespective of the opinions about Biggar's tackle, the upshot was clear for all to see and watch. The referee, together with the TMO awarded a penalty. No more.

It was suggested by the commentary team on TV that the TMO felt it might be a red card and was trying to push Dickson towards that decision. I didn't feel that, but did think Biggar lucky as we have seen tackles like that result in a red card.

But like any post-match score line, the outcome is clear. Whatever we think. The ref did not think it was a red card - so can we move on? Please?

I suppose the deliberate slap forward from the kick off at the start of the game that should have resulted in yellow and the Harding tackle that could also have been red didn’t warrant a comment from the two eyed Bristolians. And perhaps we’ll also ignore the late charge on Hendy after he’d kicked the ball away. So if we are being even handed and with a stricter ref, a red card a piece with also 3 yellow cards to Bristol to Saints 1. Swings and roundabouts I guess

Agree. At first it seemed it may have been a shoulder to the chin. But I think the rationale was Biggar started low and actually made contact with the ball which Radradra was carrying in front of him at chest height.
Going past that Saints had at least two tries (correctly) chalked off but were very near misses. So Saints could easily have had a few more scores in the bank. I was surprised that apparent knock-on from the initial kickoff was not reviewed. The commentators thought there was something there as well. Sure looked review-worthy.

At first - and second and third - it was a shoulder to the chin. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter how the shoulder got there, if it hits the head, then that is head contact. That is how I thought that is meant to be refereed - and the reason being is to prevent tacklers putting ball-carriers at risk. Biggar created the risk by standing upright in the tackle - it isn't up to Radradra to avoid being hit in the head, it is up to the tackler to prevent that. Biggar didn't start low - if he made contact with the ball at chest height, then he started at chest height (which isn't low) and rode up to the chin.

After all that, I thought that the head contact protocol should start at red and move down. I don't think this one was a definite red, but there is no doubt that Biggar was upright in front of Radradra and made contact with his head - which is what is meant to be stopped. I could see it coming down to yellow, but to come right down to penalty only just "seems" nonsensical - almost as if to say "yes, we've seen head contact, but it's of the OK contact variety". Just seems bonkers. To me.

The Harding one - nothing to moan about from my point-of-view - he wasn't upright, but he definitely made head contact. Both players bending in to it.

It's not just these ones - there have been other squiffy reviews in various other games - almost as if the referees have changed their approach to it, which just makes it harder for us watchers of the game to really understand what's going on. I always end up thinking back to the red card Cipriani received a few years ago (tackled player fell forward into Cipriani's arm or knee - he had literally no time to react to it, but got red). If things like that were red then, but upright tackles aren't red now, what has changed to the refereeing of it? Is head contact now deemed "sometimes OK" or not?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:03:16:47:29 by Bristol Ian.

Well done Bristol Dan, a logical argument. I agree that a yellow was probably appropriate., but not with those advocating a red.

A wider issue for me is that the ball carrier has no seeming responsibility whatsoever. The Exeter style of pick and go , leading with head and shoulders about 1ft off of the ground is almost impossible to tackle.

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GlosJoe

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Spockst
Some very sore loser Bristol fans

Lads you were owned by a much better side


We would have beaten you with 14 men anyway


Take the L and move on, good luck next season

If Biggar had seen red then I doubt you would have, the 6N proved that you guys don't really play well when he isn't in the team.
I bet you'll all be praying he doesn't get cited now

and we are going to finish 4th, the last time you saw silverware was when Buckingham Palace had an open day

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Bristol Ian
It's not just these ones - there have been other squiffy reviews in various other games - almost as if the referees have changed their approach to it, which just makes it harder for us watchers of the game to really understand what's going on. I always end up thinking back to the red card Cipriani received a few years ago (tackled player fell forward into Cipriani's arm or knee - he had literally no time to react to it, but got red). If things like that were red then, but upright tackles aren't red now, what has changed to the refereeing of it? Is head contact now deemed "sometimes OK" or not?

The refereeing of head contact changed on 1 March 2021 when the new head contact protocols came in: [resources.world.rugby]

Most likely they were revised at least in part to avoid ridiculous cases from the 'head = red' days such as the Cipriani example you gave! (That was in a European game, right?)

I'm not surprised Freeman wasn't 100% sharp having just come back but he's very far from the only player that Thacker has surprised with his pace and step! He's plagued us a few times over the years, just lightning for a front rower (/backrow at times like Matevesi).

Overall I think defence was decent, Bristol are one of the best attacking sides with some real invidual talent even if the whole lot isn't quite clicking for them at the moment.

When you combine good ball with well run strike moves it becomes virtually impossible to stop, especially when you've got someone like Lawes who can drop off passes like that or take it up himself if not watched.

I think it is a pointless argument. Two things were clearly wrong. Radradra did not have the ball against his chest, he moved his arms forward, you have to keep your elbows againt your chest. And Dan Biggar started and ended high. If Radradra did not carry dangerously l, then It would probably have been different.

It will be reviewed along with the whole game so we'll see whether the powers that be agree with any of the different views on the above incidents, their view is the only one that will make any difference.

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SaintsAsh
I think it is a pointless argument. Two things were clearly wrong. Radradra did not have the ball against his chest, he moved his arms forward, you have to keep your elbows againt your chest. And Dan Biggar started and ended high. If Radradra did not carry dangerously l, then It would probably have been different.

There is nothing that says a player "must keep his elbows against his chest" and there was no dangerous carry by Radradra. The ball stays in contact with his own chest, which is absolutely legal, into the tackle. He pushes Biggar away from him during the contact. Nothing wrong with that either. Justifying poor tackle technique with a counter-argument that Radradra made the tackle too difficult is nonsensical. Biggar should have tackled lower. Tackling high always invites the risk of being penalised and on this occasion wasn't punished correctly.

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Bristol Ian
It's not just these ones - there have been other squiffy reviews in various other games - almost as if the referees have changed their approach to it, which just makes it harder for us watchers of the game to really understand what's going on. I always end up thinking back to the red card Cipriani received a few years ago (tackled player fell forward into Cipriani's arm or knee - he had literally no time to react to it, but got red). If things like that were red then, but upright tackles aren't red now, what has changed to the refereeing of it? Is head contact now deemed "sometimes OK" or not?

The refereeing of head contact changed on 1 March 2021 when the new head contact protocols came in: [resources.world.rugby]

Most likely they were revised at least in part to avoid ridiculous cases from the 'head = red' days such as the Cipriani example you gave! (That was in a European game, right?)

Thanks Matthew - I do recall that, having looked at the link.

Can't remember the exact details of the Cipriani card, but it certainly sticks in the mind as pretty much the most ridiculous (at the time) - hence the introduction of the revised protocols!

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Spockst

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GlosJoe

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Spockst
Some very sore loser Bristol fans

Lads you were owned by a much better side


We would have beaten you with 14 men anyway


Take the L and move on, good luck next season

If Biggar had seen red then I doubt you would have, the 6N proved that you guys don't really play well when he isn't in the team.
I bet you'll all be praying he doesn't get cited now

and we are going to finish 4th, the last time you saw silverware was when Buckingham Palace had an open day

And it was still more recent than Saints

This is the one I was thinking of, Glaws vs Munster.

[www.youtube.com]

Prem and Heineken are the only 2 that count. We have won both. Challenge Cup and the Egg n Spoon Race don’t count.

Come back when you’ve won a major trophy.

In the meantime feel free to scour the message boards of other prem clubs to comment on matches that didn’t involve Gloucester.

Since you’re commenting here I can tell you’re getting nervous champ, don’t bottle it again.

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Spockst
Prem and Heineken are the only 2 that count. We have won both. Challenge Cup and the Egg n Spoon Race don’t count.
Come back when you’ve won a major trophy.

In the meantime feel free to scour the message boards of other prem clubs to comment on matches that didn’t involve Gloucester.

Since you’re commenting here I can tell you’re getting nervous champ, don’t bottle it again.

Oh dear, struck a nerve there? I can see you're still sore about the game the other week.

Not surprised you and others on here are defending Biggar though especially when for some Calum Clark is still classed as a hero

Ooh, been a while since anyone brought that one up out of the blue, but then again it did happen a decade ago now.

You know, we only seem to get these trolls when we are paying well.

Exactly Ducks, Glos chap has some adrenaline marks in his whiteys this weekend

I was late getting to the Callum Clark shrine on Saturday
The queue must have been at least 100 deep

Lucky I was able to pay homage and still be at my seat by kick off

I understand Northampton CC are thinking of renaming the new market square
The Callum Emporium in reverence to the great man

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Duckonstilts
You know, we only seem to get these trolls when we are paying well.

Pretty boring isn't it?

A great win yesterday and again some excellent play in attack, with lots of really good performances across the team. Still work to do in defence I think, but generally it is looking tighter and more physical. To me we look a different side with Lawes and Ludlam playing - they form a great back row with Augustus and give the backs the space to let loose. All three are in top form.

A win at Bath would edge us closer to that final top 4 spot . Yesterday the crowd were more vocal than of late, we will need to really step it up again for Quins. Win those two and I think we will get 4th. Hope the boys have a well deserved break now.
COYS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:03:20:06:29 by St Marcus.

The crowd very much reflect the mood of the team. When they’re firing and making the effort in defence and creating chances in attack they bring the gardens with them. Dour play with little energy and aimless kick tennis is a complete turn-off. This is the entertainment business, there’s no place for those that don’t understand what is required!

I agree this seems to be the case for Franklin's Gardens this year but I would say the crowds job is mutual and we should lift the team as much as we can. If we are lifting them early doors, the likelihood is we get the performance that matches it. Its a win-win.

I would also highlight I am really enjoying watching the Saints this year. We have seen glimpses of what we can do when we put it together, let's hope we continue this to the final!

Absolutely. We all want the Saints to win. The chances of a win are much greater if the crowd are behind the team from the off. Get singing. Franklins Gardens in full voice is a wonderful thing. It really helps the boys and they appreciate it.
Get to away games if you can.
If we haven't nearly lost our voices by the final whistle, we haven't done our job!

Let's hope the recent wins, and with something to play for, will bring the supporters back, there are noticable gaps all round the stadium

As expected no citing for Dan Biggar despite the vehemence of Bristol and Gloucester posters on this match thread suggesting he should be cited.

I haven't seen any pundits bar Healey call for a citing for Dan. So basically no objective pundits thought Dan should have been cited and clearly neither did the powers that be.

Whilst we need to make the game as safe as possible, I really don't like how much the game has turned into witch-hunts seeking red cards and fans catawaling if a red isn't given.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:04:05:00:05:22 by Saint Maul.

Agreed, that isn’t the game I grew up loving

The game does seem to have shifted away from 'rugby' to monitoring what level of punishment needed handing out.

Bristol local news;

[www.bristolpost.co.uk]

Pat Lam has to be applauded for deflecting comments away from the poor Bristol display and what is happening under his Directorship, saves him having to explain why his team is so poor despite £400k overspend.

Could you imaging Healy playing under today's rules, he would be in the ref's ear at every occasion demanding his fellow professional is either sinbinned or sent off, particularly obnoxious individual.
Would consider rejoining BT sport if Daisy took over from Healy.

After his blatant cheating against Tigers by pretending Afoa was injured he can pipe down. Saints legend and all.

Would you want Pat Lam to return and coach Saints?

Pretty sure Oz (and to be fair every scrum half in the history of rugby ever) was in the refs ear constantly anyway!

That incident aside I do worry slightly about Biggar's tackle technique, he isn't looking for high hits but is quite often targeted by bigger men and doesn't like to give ground. His answer seems to be a sort of 'soak' tackle where he stays upright and even sometimes almost jumps. It doesn't make a dominant hit but almost always takes the player down with him. However it does risk head on head which isn't great from a risk point of view - both of injury and him getting a card.

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Deesaint
Pat Lam has to be applauded for deflecting comments away from the poor Bristol display and what is happening under his Directorship, saves him having to explain why his team is so poor despite £400k overspend.

Correction- Bristol have not broken the salary cap. Contracts that should have been terminated weren't (according to rumour) and thus we over budget for next season should nothing be done about it.

A huge mess certainly, incompetence definitely, but not breach of the cap (so far).

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Saint Gordo
Would you want Pat Lam to return and coach Saints?

No. His rugby of running it from everywhere probably won’t win the Prem in my view. There’s a balance and they put themselves into difficult positions.

I wonder whether it was a huge gamble rather than incompetence? If you bank that the other clubs will let players go in anticipation of the lower cap next season and you keep everyone on - in theory you should have an edge for the 2021/22 season. Provided you can then sort contracts before the start of next season (an HR/legal issue rather than a salary cap one) then you've done nothing wrong from a rugby regulation point of view - ethically it may be different!

The problem is that they let the extra year in some contracts activate when they would have liked to not extend. They can't back out of the contracts and simply paying the players off would count in the cap anyway.

It was an admin error but it now means that they must reduce the total salaries somehow. That will likely mean letting go of players that they were planning to keep but hadn't finalised contracts with yet.

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LeicesterSaint
Pretty sure Oz (and to be fair every scrum half in the history of rugby ever) was in the refs ear constantly anyway!
That incident aside I do worry slightly about Biggar's tackle technique, he isn't looking for high hits but is quite often targeted by bigger men and doesn't like to give ground. His answer seems to be a sort of 'soak' tackle where he stays upright and even sometimes almost jumps. It doesn't make a dominant hit but almost always takes the player down with him. However it does risk head on head which isn't great from a risk point of view - both of injury and him getting a card.

Quite agree L S check out his tackle on Vui on 77 min 12 secs , almost a carbon copy of the first half incident. Rosie probably packing up his kit by then.

In a way it’s sensible to protect himself


Piers Francis career has been blighted by concussions caused by tackling low

I'm not sure there is a safe way to tackle someone bigger than you who also has the momentum when you're static but I'm pretty sure his current method isn't safe for him or the opposing player. If he's on the border against someone that tall he's going to be in real trouble against someone a few inches shorter.

Intersting points regarding DB
He has played 62 times for Saints and 99 caps for Wales.
I just cannot remember a yellow or red card for a high tackle.

In the context of comments above I would have expected numerous yellows and a good few reds.

As far as I'm aware the closest to trouble DB has ever been is a stern word about talking to or gesticulating at refs! So I'm certainly not saying he's a dirty player or is looking to make illegal hits - just that in the current framework you're playing with fire with upright tackles.

As much as it probably shouldn't I think you're less likely to get pinged if you're soaking up a hit as opposed to making one and refs are only human so I think there is some bias in terms of previous etc.

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Deesaint
Intersting points regarding DB
He has played 62 times for Saints and 99 caps for Wales.
I just cannot remember a yellow or red card for a high tackle.

In the context of comments above I would have expected numerous yellows and a good few reds.

When the video of the Biggar tackle was being reviewed by the TMO and referee, the commentators were saying Biggar has never received a red card at any time in his career. For whatever it's worth....